Paul Warloski (00:23)

Hello and welcome to the Athletes Compass Podcast, where we navigate training, fitness, and health for everyday athletes. There's a debate brewing in the endurance sports science world. Should you do your high-intensity intervals when you're fresh, able to hit peak power and cadence without compromise, or save them for the end of the workout when you're already a little fatigued to build what researchers call durability? Today we're

Breaking down what the research actually says about each approach, the physiological trade-offs, and when each strategy makes sense for your training. So, Paul, what is the physiological rationale behind doing intervals fresh versus doing them when already fatigued? What is the does the research support one approach over the other?

Paul Laursen (01:09)

Yeah, I think, this is a a an amazing question. I'm sure a lot of people have. And the answer somewhat relates to how we define fatigue at the end of the day. Because as as so often is the case, the answer really depends. So let's say there's a couple there's lots of different ways you can be fatigued. Now, one way you can be fatigued might be, say, in the classic overtraining scenario.

and that's usually detected by a a stagnating or lowering HRV seven day average relative to your sixty day average in Athletica and your AI coach is kind of shouting. So in that case, if you are fatigued like that, you're waking up and you're really in the in the bin, that's that's probably the the time where the answer is, wait and don't do your high intensity session. That's probably not the time that you can kind of

dig in there and and get much. Now there's there's a different type of fatigue too, or there's a different context. And that might be something that where your glycogen levels, the f the the sugar portion, the sugar carbohydrate, the stored carbohydrate in your muscles, where it might be at a lower level than in the in the fed state and the rested state. And in that case, if you have low glycogen

levels then the the science is a little bit more concrete in that it does amplify one of the adaptive signals call and that adaptive signal is called AMPK and the research group is from John Hawley's lab in Melbourne and a number number of researchers from his lab showed this amplification of the signal that creates for more mitochondria at the end of the day that AMPK signal. So

that's that's when they did high intensity interval training after being under low glycogen levels. All right. So there's a lot of different ways to do that. You can you can starve your body of carbohydrate by eating a low carbohydrate diet. You can eat low carbohydrates into the into the evening period and then sleep, called sleep low. And in these all in all of these cases, or you can actually do a a period just like you mentioned Paul, you can do a period of

aerobic exercise before you do your intervals. And in that case, you also blunt or you lower the the muscle glycogen level. And in any of those cases, the the research is pretty solid in that you will amplify that signal for adaptation, which is a pretty cool thing. So

Paul Warloski (03:48)

Mm-hmm.

Paul Laursen (03:49)

so there's two types of fatigue conditions that I just gave you there. One is where your central nervous system is totally flat. And in that case, you don't want to go and do

intervals because you need rest and and recovery and you need to just probably do a recovery ride or an aerobic session and you shouldn't do high intensity interval training. But in the case where you you want to amplify that adaptive signal, you can do it either before or after. Before you're probably gonna be Weving Sandback and the Norwegian methods, they would call this quality. this is your training with quality. So fantastic and and that's good almost for the mental standpoint.

But you could also place it at the end, amplify, and know that you're gonna be getting a strong adaptive signal. And you could do that your intervals more towards the end. And of course, there's a lot of other contextual factors into this answer as well. Really depends on how fit you are as well. So you know, we have Luke Evans who's the push to boy of Atletica. we've we've mentioned before he does eight sets of 3030, 10 30 30s.

He could he can do these before, after, or in the middle. You know, he's he's just he's definitely gonna be there's a lot of different ways he can he can get this adaptive signal, but then someone else might just be starting out and maybe they're not really ready yet there for doing intervals under fatigue. So a lot of contextual depends answers there, Paul.

Paul Warloski (05:12)

Yeah, I thought you were going to talk about muscle fatigue and here you are talking about glycogen. So is that is muscle fatigue one of the those contextual foundry parts there that we're talking about, or does that not play into effect?

Paul Laursen (05:26)

Yeah, no, I mean there's there's another context, right? So when we talk about muscle fatigue, well what are we talking about? Are we talking about, Marius Backen's Norwegian method, muscle tone, stiffness and and elasticity kind of component, that neuromuscular fatigue. then if if that's the case, then it's probably again it kind of goes back that goes back to the central nervous system.

situation as well. And that's probably the same answer I would give as

Paul Warloski (05:56)

Mm.

Paul Laursen (05:56)

if your HRV is suppressed. You've got something in your central nervous system that something that talks to the entire body. And it's saying, you're you're a bit you're a bit flogged and you need a bit more rest and recovery before you do that quality session. So to yeah, to that point, with to me you've just spoken about neuromuscular fatigue, then

Yeah, I would I would hold on that. I would I would I would wait. So in that in that context.

Paul Warloski (06:26)

Okay, okay. So the research defines durability as resilience to performance declines during prolonged exercise. How does training in a fatigue state theoretically build this and and what's the mechanism mechanism, the AMPK?

Paul Laursen (06:44)

Yep. Exactly, Paul. Like so yeah, you I this is G Gallo, who you put me on to. we had this this conversation on the training science podcast, right? And that what we came down to, as you'll as you'll recall, is you know, the fat oxidation was a really important element to the durability s d durability puzzle, right? The bet the better your fat oxidation at the end.

Certainly carbohydrate availability can be one thing, but there was a strong relationship in all across most of the research be between your fat oxidation, your oxygen uptake later on in the in in in the piece in the latter half of your stages and your your durability or the you know how how much you fall relative to your fresh baseline. So you think of the principle specificity, this is certainly a time when you you know.

if you want to amplify durability or resilience, resilience to fatigue or fatigability, you want to it's not a bad idea to do those intervals later on because again, that AMPK signal, right? You're basically and and you know, put it another way, like just you're under a depleted state and

Paul Warloski (08:00)

Mm-hmm.

Paul Laursen (08:01)

you're you're you're pushing hard at the end and you may

This is the funny thing. Like you may see you will see power output usually be less than your fresh state. And that is

Paul Warloski (08:13)

Okay.

Paul Laursen (08:14)

that is durability at the end of the day. But what is potentially greater than in the fresh state is the signal being amplified or a signal being put on that's those skeletal muscle fibers to tell them to adapt. And that's might be higher.

even though the power output is less. Does that make sense? So the quality might feel less to you, but you're

Paul Warloski (08:40)

It yeah.

Paul Laursen (08:43)

actually amplifying the signal to tell your body to adapt for the next time.

Paul Warloski (08:47)

Okay, that's really interesting. So the if I'm doing intervals today and I'm doing them at the end, I might have less power on my bike, but the signal might be greater for ad adaptation the next time. Is that what you're saying? for the for the adaptations, yeah.

Paul Laursen (09:07)

That's a

Yeah, a hundred percent. And actually in within Athletica, this is back to one of Andrea Zignoli's inventions. This is system engagement. That's he actually you can see that if you go into your session analysis and you do and he showed this in the Bardiarni World Tour pro cycling team, right? When they did they did all out efforts after a prolonged period of of

aerobic exercise, their the system engagement was more aerobic at the end, even though they were doing you know short sprints, right? The which should have been very anaerobic and glycolytic and and neuromuscular. But in fact, because all of that aerobic activity occurred beforehand, it forces more aerobic adaptations to occur. Now remember that's not a bad thing. Aerobic, in fact it's what you want.

The aerobic system is the fatigue resistant system, right? Everything that you when when you when you engage your fast twitch muscle fibers, you know, especially your type 2A's, with your big powerful fibers, when you engage those under depleted states, you amplify that same signal, the AMPK, and turn them into you, you you you tell them to make more mitochondria and

give them the same fatigue resistance as your slow f twitch muscle fibers, but they retain the power. They retain their how strong they are. And that in itself is the durability puzzle right there. Like you will be so much stronger in your in your sprint towards towards the end if you do those. So so yeah, I think like we're kind of the research points a little bit more, for me at least, this is, you know, we we we're this is

This this isn't concrete, but in most contexts of a a well trained a well trained athlete, well conditioned athlete, you it's not a bad idea to to have some high intensity interval training done in the in the latter half or even a a longer like, you know, look at the Luke Evans situation, right? Where we were talking about doing eight sets of ten thirty thirties, right? Like imagine, imagine what's going on when you're when you're in set number

Seven, eight, nine, and ten, right? It has to be fully aerobic. Like he's doing, you know, repeated bouts of 400 plus watts. Like that's

Paul Warloski (11:38)

Yeah.

Paul Laursen (11:39)

only the aerobic system is allowed to do that. But it's aerobic system that's adapted to those fast twitch muscle fibers that allows him to keep keep hitting that s that that target. Boom, boom, boom. So so yeah, like a lot of context in here for the everyday athlete, Paul, but

Across the continuum, you it's it's good idea to keep maybe just sprinkling in those a little bit later in the piece.

Paul Warloski (12:05)

For runners, fatigue tends to alter running mechanics. You know, stride length decreases a little bit, contact time increases a little bit. Does training in this state improve efficiency or does it maybe create more injury possibilities or reinforce poor movement patterns? I mean, how does it work with running mechanics?

Paul Laursen (12:30)

Yeah. What a what what an amazing context balm you just threw into that, Paul. 'Cause yeah, you're absolutely right. Like you just took we were I I was in the the cycling head, right, where all of these research

Paul Warloski (12:43)

Mm-hmm.

Paul Laursen (12:45)

studies have really taken place in the laboratory that's so much easier for us to do these in in cyclists. And but you've just thrown thrown a a real real curveball at the whole philosophy and in in fact, absolutely the

the neuromuscular component now is completely switched and you have to you really have to be c cautious of that injury component that you just brought up, right? Because yeah, like your

Paul Warloski (13:10)

Okay.

Paul Laursen (13:10)

your motor patterns will shift. And now we're going back into the central nervous system a little bit, which is you know, it's it's it's not as exposed as much in the cycling context because we have mostly concentric exercise or mostly concentric

movements and whatnot. But now we're into the eccentric kind of component. And and now it it really depends a lot more on the the experience level. So and and and now and I mean, you know, I kind of go back to some of the conversations I had with with the great Dr. Marius Bakken and the Norwegian method where, you know, he would really make sure that he's fresh for these you certainly can have these later in on in the piece as as he did.

But and even the the the two a day Norwegian method, you know, double threshold day. But make sh he always made sure that his central nervous system prior to that day was recovered, right? And that's why he so his is a really simple method where it's basically hard on Tuesdays, could be like a double threshold on Tuesday, could be a double threshold on Thursday and and a yeah, an X factor

session on on a Saturday. But notice that every day in between the tone of the muscle, the neuromuscular component of the fatigue was down. So that he was, you know, always 48 hours between all of those key sessions. So that every time eat coming in, he would he would be rested, and and fresh, even if it was

bolted on to the end towards the end. And this is of course in a world class athlete, but we can all model and take take some ideas from from these world class class guys. But so yeah, make no mistake about it. If you're if we're now shifting into the running context, we've got to have a a fresh neuromuscular system to be able to to to hit this correctly. Of course many, many athletes can handle

a good, you know, hour warm up before they they hit the that that high intensity section. So it again a lot of it just depends on the person.

Paul Warloski (15:25)

Yeah, I mean what I'm hearing from you is that it's it's you don't want to do these while you're running and being completely trashed from doing, you know, other work, but a longer warm up or a longer aerobic session would be okay if depending on the context of the runner. Okay.

Paul Laursen (15:41)

Yep. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Yeah. And the longer that warm up is, the more you are depleting the carbohydrate from the muscle fibers and shifting towards more fat and shifting more towards that amplification of the AMPK signal that we've been talking about on the podcast, which which makes your fast twitch muscle fibers make more mitochondria, become more fatigue resistant.

Paul Warloski (16:05)

Do intervals at the end mimic race scenarios when you're already fatigued? You know, is this is this a are these race like intervals, does it confuse race like with optimal training stimulus? I mean, what how does that play out? Is this is this a a transferable kind of skill or is it just are we just working on on adaptation?

Paul Laursen (16:28)

Yeah, yeah, when usually when we do intervals, there you know, the principle of specificity is implied. You're doing something that is specific to the race to prepare you. And but not always, so sometimes. So say if you're if you're an ultra distant ultra distance runner, if you did something like you know, two hundred repeats at zone six, that's not necessarily

Paul Warloski (16:53)

Yeah.

Paul Laursen (16:54)

that specific.

to to what you're going to be doing. And it's you know, it's may might be questionable in terms of of that that prescription. But coming down around, you know, just a little bit above that, maybe around zone five and maybe doing these up an incline, well maybe that would be facilitating an adaptation that we might want for that race, right? That might be the context where we where it is of benefit to do those that you know that session. And and

Yeah, sometimes we'll see that in in the the Saturdays X X session that Marius Bakken calls it. where it's it's a little bit of a mix. It's a mix of, you know, hill hill sprints coupled with threshold intervals over undulating terrain that that mimic what you might might experience in an ultra ultra event. So so yeah, it's there's a lot of depends in this, but it's

Paul Warloski (17:52)

Mm-hmm.

Paul Laursen (17:53)

So yeah, you want to make sure that those intervals that you choose are somewhat specific to to what what it is that you are that you're actually going to be doing. And but yeah, you know, back to Gallo's model where it's like a physiological base one. you know, it is good to you know just always do the race pace work all the time, right? We we do want to do a physiological based program.

like Athletica has where you're moving all around the the systems right you're doing some sys some sessions where you're doing the 3030s that might be working on aerobic development under low low lactate right because the rest interval lowers the lactate you might be doing strength endurance work to to manipulate the

the types of you know neuromuscular quantit qualities that you're you're gonna need for the race. And and of course the you know the zone zone one and zone two work that's the the base and forms the adaptation energy that we need for the entire plan. So yeah, there's

Paul Warloski (19:07)

Yeah.

Paul Laursen (19:09)

there's a lot to it.

Paul Warloski (19:10)

Yeah, and and there are a lot of depends and you know, and I think the one of the issues then are there athlete profiles where one approach is better than the other? For instance, something with fiber type with muscles, training age, sport discipline. what do you think about that?

Paul Laursen (19:31)

Yeah, so for sure those are important contextual factors. The the first one is the fiber type. So maybe consider if you're a twitchy athlete or if you're a diesel engine, if you want to do a course on this for free, go to athleteprofilingprimer dot com and and check it out. You can learn all about that. And but yeah, in the context where you're a twitchy athlete, say you play basketball, football, something that was really sprinty in your youth.

You might be one of those twitchy athletes. And in that case, usually you need a little bit more recovery between your intervals is what we've found. So and that's both between the bouts of exercise and also between those those bouts of exercise or between those days of high intensity work. It just seems that the because you've got more capacity and you a little bit more grunt, it just seems like your whole neuro neuromuscular and lactate system needs a little bit more recovery. So

conversely, if you're a diesel engine, you go, go, go all the time. You recover quick. Well, again, you can have shorter recovery and you can do more of these these the this type of work. And you're very often very resilient to to those. in the aging athlete, you we tend to you know need less of these this high intensity work. We need a little bit more time to recover again. A recovery doesn't tend to be as

as strong as it was in the in in the good old days. So we need to to to add recovery in accordance with that as well. And I think that was was there one more Paul?

Paul Warloski (21:09)

the sport discipline, but we've talked about that with running and cycling, but no.

Paul Laursen (21:11)

Yeah. For sure. For sure. See the yeah, and

that's which is ultimately the eccentric or neuromuscular component, is gonna

Paul Warloski (21:19)

Mm-hmm.

Paul Laursen (21:19)

influence that big time and and we've dealt with that one.

Paul Warloski (21:22)

Yeah. What about core temperature? Since prolonged exercise increases core temp and and therefore impacts performance, does training intervals in a kind of pre fatigue state or a low glycogen state help athletes better manage these variables and races?

Paul Laursen (21:38)

so sorry, the the the temperature like does the temperature affect that?

Paul Warloski (21:43)

Yeah, if

if our core temperature is higher, you know, in in you know, because we have done some pre fatiguing, does that help manage core temperature during a race eventually? Does that is that one of the adaptations?

Paul Laursen (21:55)

yeah.

Paul Warloski (21:56)

Yeah.

Paul Laursen (21:57)

For sure. Like that's you know, it's we're recording this, it's middle of the summer and yeah, like temperature's a big a big component right now, right? So

we're working with Luke Evans, who's the again poster boy in Athletica, and it's you know, he's got Kona on the mind and it's all about heat preparation right now. So

Paul Warloski (22:16)

Mm-hmm.

Paul Laursen (22:17)

and it's getting hot sp and and you're actually specifically getting hot in all of your

your various different sessions. Now, when you're adding, you know, we've been talking about intervals on this on this podcast. When you're adding intervals in across heat, you really have to be careful because when you do your intervals, you remember the whole the whole process of metabolism is an inefficient process. And when you're burning your your fuels, carbs, carbs and fat, the byproduct is heat. So you're shedding out all this heat. That's why you get hot when you exercise.

Now you add the l a redu reduced ability to cool yourself. Well now you're getting back to the whole concept of quality. You you you your core temperature is so high that you have to you just can't push as hard. So you and it's dangerous as well, especially if you're using different, techniques. Like you might be you know, like heat suits or anything, exercising in high humidity where you can't rid heat through the process of

sweat evaporation. So you you therefore you really have to be cautious with these intervals in that. Now of course heat in a in a cold context, heat is your friend, right? Because it's going to it elicits something called the Q10 effect, which ultimately makes your your body more efficient at at allowing your muscles to perform the work. when you're that's the whole premise for the warm-up effect. When your w muscles are warm,

they actually fire a lot better, right? But the there's a balance. So you can go and you're and we're looking for that happy medium on both. And then to the you know the a lot of the stuff we've been talking about today, there's another interesting effect that happens with heat and that is that glycogen burns more rapidly. So for whatever reason, under hot hot conditions, it really drives glycolysis, right? The glycolysis is the

the burning of sh the sugar that's in the muscles for energy. So it actually forces that for some reason. I I I'm not sure the evolutionary reason for why that happens, but it does occur. a lot of studies we've done have have sh have definitely shown that. and that's going to deplete muscle glycogen faster, whether that's a critical factor or not is

Potentially debatable, but that's you know, that's why doing your intervals in that potentially hot condition or after about of exercise can be of of benefit because the more you can actually use fat as a as a fuel

Paul Warloski (24:59)

Mm. Mm.

Paul Laursen (25:00)

as opposed to glycogen, the higher your fat oxidation ultimately. The the the more you're taking that that issue out of the of the recipe. Like

Let's and you know, let's let's go back to Dan Plews world record in Kona, right? granted he didn't have the hottest day out there, but nevertheless, he did the he did that world record for Kona under mostly a fat adapted athlete condition. And you can imagine for an eight you know, an eight eight seventeen or eight twenty three Iron Man in under pretty hot conditions still, he's got to be

pretty well fat adapted and he's but

Paul Warloski (25:38)

Yeah.

Paul Laursen (25:39)

he's kind of taking that glycogen burn that exacerbated glycogen burn out of the equation by by doing that. So so yeah he to to your point heat is a big factor in how much sugar you're going to be burning and

Paul Warloski (25:54)

Interesting one.

Paul Laursen (25:55)

and potentially doing the durability trick to have your intervals later on in the in the training piece can be one factor that is defending you.

against the the fatigue.

Paul Warloski (26:09)

Interesting. So it comes down to the glycogen burn again.

Paul Laursen (26:13)

It's it's I don't know it's depends on it, but it's it's related. It's related. It's it's yeah, it's

Paul Warloski (26:16)

No. It's really yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Laursen (26:19)

in s it's in concert. the the the debate is up on what's causing what, but there's certainly yeah, it's it's the de pr the d the decline in that is going to be blunted by your your AMPK, mitochondrial use, fat burning, all that stuff, right? It's all linking to fat burning.

And again,

Paul Warloski (26:40)

Mm-hmm.

Paul Laursen (26:40)

yeah, the conversation with Gallo is really you know, we talked a lot about that.

Paul Warloski (26:47)

Does it matter if the early section of the workout, the early base part of the workout is is easy aerobic, if it's strength training, is it another interval block? Does that matter? And and does it does the length of time the duration of that base period I don't want to use the word base period 'cause I get confusing.

Paul Laursen (27:09)

Yeah, zone one two.

Paul Warloski (27:11)

yeah, the one two, yeah. I mean, is that that first section? Does it matter the d

The length and what it is.

Paul Laursen (27:17)

Yeah, I I d I don't know if it matters hugely, but you probably I mean, we've we've danced around a few of the the reasons why you want that and we wanna have the war warm up effect. You we want temperature in there. We probably want a little bit of depletion actually occurring and yeah, 'cause we're gonna be f you know, a little more primed and fired up to actually perform that that work. And

how long it how long is a piece of string? It probably depends

Paul Warloski (27:47)

Mm.

Paul Laursen (27:48)

probably depends on your pro your a lot of the factors that are within athletica, your fitness level which you get from your performance management chart. It probably it depends on your power profile and, you know, just how fit of an athlete you are in terms of how much power or pace you can produce across various durations and

But yeah, I don't think there's there's there's not one answer to that one. It's a lot of depends in

Paul Warloski (28:11)

Yeah.

Paul Laursen (28:12)

in that. but don't be afraid to to have a good warm-up. Actually I can remember a a story from Michael Rogers, who you might remember that name from the you know, Tour de France days working with him in Australia.

Paul Warloski (28:20)

Hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Paul Laursen (28:24)

and it was it it blew me away that before his Olympic time trials, and he would be close to the podium on on these, he would be the warm-up that that he did, I believe, was three hours.

So imagine doing a three hour warm up before a forty K time trial, right? So

Paul Warloski (28:40)

Wow.

Paul Laursen (28:41)

yeah. So it's yeah. I you know, I don't don't quote me on

Paul Warloski (28:44)

What's what's the thinking? Okay, so what's the

Yeah, what's the thinking behind that?

Paul Laursen (28:48)

Well, I guess the thinking is, maybe it wasn't maybe it wasn't three hours, but it was at least ninety. Like I knew I knew it was it

Paul Warloski (28:54)

But still, yeah.

Paul Laursen (28:55)

was very long. And the thinking is ultimately at this high, high s super l high level of fitness. It just takes that that much time for the whole aerobic system to become fully, fully engaged and warm up. And again, we're

Paul Warloski (29:13)

Okay, okay.

Paul Laursen (29:14)

talking

We're talking again like the one side of the the continuum, an athlete like like Luke Luke Evans, right? Like we it's hard for a lot of us to to to put our head around this, but because when you're we're in that context, those guys, like that's they they're they're producing these huge power outputs and they're doing it because the the reason they can do it for so long is because of their aerobic system is so well developed, right? Like we're watching the Tour de France right now and it's

Yeah, it's these guys are just absolute aerobic beasts. Even the even the

Paul Warloski (29:48)

Mm.

Paul Laursen (29:49)

the the sprinters, even the sprinters have to aerobically get over these massive hill hill climbs and those sorts of things, right? So it's

Paul Warloski (29:56)

Yeah.

Paul Laursen (29:57)

yeah, so that's that's so yeah, you have to have a a very long warm up in that in that case. But so yeah, I'm it's been a lot of context a lot of yeah a lot of

you know, depends in this in this podcast.

Paul Warloski (30:13)

Depends. Yeah. Yeah.

And that's that brings us to the end of this and and kind of a summary of you know our initial problem for everyday endurance athletes is should they do intervals at the start of a longer workout or at the end of the longer workout? And what would be your kind of bottom line recommendation based on the current evidence? Which side of that debate wins and under what circumstances?

Paul Laursen (30:38)

Sure. So I would say if you're just starting out, for sure, have a shorter warm up and and just get in and and complete the workout as as it's prescribed and and don't

Paul Warloski (30:48)

Yeah.

Paul Laursen (30:48)

do too big of a of a workout. Now as you develop your abilities and be want to, extend your durability and reduce your fatigue ability, you may want to

work on adding a period of of work beforehand. I mean what is that is durability at the end of the day, right? It's it's trying to repeat your fresh state. So you can only do that by being specific to it. So so yeah so I think those those would be probably the take home key messages. Just

Paul Warloski (31:21)

Mm-hmm.

Paul Laursen (31:22)

starting out, do your workout, get her done, at it, you know, minimize that warm-up because you probably, you know, your aerobic capacity or ability

isn't yet developed maybe to where it's gonna go. But if you are a well-trained athlete already, quite experienced, this would be something you could potentially tinker with and and have that that period of time beforehand to extend your own dura durability by adding your intervals more towards the end because you're gonna get remember that that stronger adaptive signal even if

the power you're producing towards the end might be a little bit little bit down. You'll have to be patient. an ego must be accepting of that lower power output at the end, knowing that it's gonna be stronger, you're gonna be a better athlete down the road.

Paul Warloski (32:14)

You're still getting the adaptations.

Paul Laursen (32:16)

Yeah, and maybe even stronger.

Paul Warloski (32:18)

Yeah, yeah. Hm. All right. Well thank you, Pa.

Paul Laursen (32:22)

Thank you, Paul.

Paul Warloski (32:24)

Thanks for listening today to the Athletes Compass Podcast. Take a moment now, subscribe, share, and let's keep navigating this endurance adventure together. Improve your training with the science based training platform Atletica and join the conversation at the Athletica Forum. For Dr. Paul Laursen I'm Paul Warlosksi and this has been the Athletes Compass Podcast. Thank you so much for listening.