E14_Hummus and Dip

Hamish: [00:00:00] G'day everybody, welcome to another episode of the Mindful Builder podcast.

Today we are joined by Claire Thomas from Altereco. And of course, as always, we are joined by Matthew, my co host. Matthew, how are you, mate? Uh, well, you mean, I'm probably almost old enough to be your dad. almost.

Clare, how are you? Thank you for coming on.

Claire: Yeah, no worries. You know, great. thank you for having me. I'm actually pretty nervous. I'm not gonna lie.

Hamish: Oh, that's

Claire: old, got the I listen, I listen

Matt: What's your heart rate at?

Claire: actually, actually had a look at it before. It is, oh, it's actually not too bad.

It's only 83.

Matt: So if I told you now that James has added in a random question for us to ask you, what's your heart rate now?

Claire: Well, he already, when I, when I walked upstairs, he did say, PS, there's a, uh, there's a random question coming your way. So,

Hamish: the listeners haven't already figured it out, Claire and James are married and both work for Altereco. So, um, Maddie and I both have done projects with Alter [00:02:00] ECO. Matt, you had a longstanding relationship with Altereco and we've got our first project with them at the moment. but there is, everyone kind of knows each other. but Claire, enough about Altereco. We can get to that later. Tell us a little bit about you.

Claire: about me.

Hamish: I bet you.

Claire: Um, I want to start, uh, uni, uh, back in the UK, I studied sports science. Um, so I did that for three years and when that finished, I headed over to Canada with some mates and did a snowboard season out there. And that's where I met an Aussie bloke.

It's called James Goodluck. So we, we traveled around North America for a while. We lived off Nutella sandwiches and white bread and just happy as Larry. It was a very simple, good time. Um, , went back to the UK James did his first winter over there and said, I'm not, I'm not doing a second winter. So I moved over to Australia 10 years ago, I think.

Oh, not 10 years, sorry. 20 years ago. fluffed around a little bit, I worked as a personal trainer for a little while when I was on a holiday visa, I worked in Boost Juice for a bit, , and then I landed a job with, uh, Asics, the footwear company, as a technical rep, which was a dream job at the time, cause I was, I was a runner, no longer a runner cause my, my knees are arthritic, I was a runner at the time.

Um, so that was, , yeah, a dream job for me. So I used to go out and visit and talk to podiatrists and physios and talk shoes all day long, did that with Asics for about seven years. And then, , I got made redundant, actually the whole tech team got, got made redundant, which was pretty brutal at the time, , but then moved over to Mizuno, another footwear company, , worked as a kind of a dual tech and sales role with those guys.

So I was in the industry, in that industry for about nine or 10 years. And then, yeah, I've been with Altereco for, I think this is coming up to my seventh year, I think it'll be

Matt: So long service leave for you?

Is the boss going to give it to you?

Claire: that's in August.

Hamish: We have a couple of things in common, Claire. I met my partner in Whistler, Lucy's actually from Canberra, but, uh, we met in Whistler and, um, have been together for a number of years.

And [00:04:00] I also have ruined knees, so I can't run anymore either, which is why I ride a lot.

Claire: It's a classic story, isn't it? I cycle a lot now and it's like, you know, the injured runner slash. Now a cyclist, it's a, it's a common thing when you get older and knackered.

Hamish: that's perfect.

Matt: So how do you then go from working in a footwear company to jumping into, an architectural design company, like what's that bridge of a gap look like?

Claire: yeah, I didn't know my arse and my elbow , when I started. Not saying profess to now, fully. But, um, you know, I didn't know the difference between a planning permit and a building permit. I didn't know what RFIs were for. I didn't really know how to work a computer in all honesty, like as a sales rep, you spend Monday to Friday on the road talking to people Monday to Thursday and then Friday you're in the office in meetings.

So, you know, you'd send the odd, , message, you know, email on your phone, but that's about as technically advanced as I got. So, when you work in the studio with a load of people that that's their bread and butter. He gets to feel pretty stupid pretty quickly. So, when I started working, with James for Altereco, I kind of, I said to myself, I'm just going to take a massive step back for the next two years.

And I'm just going to absorb as much as I can.

Matt: had, Jane's been running his business for a while at that point or have you sort of seen what was happening in the background and understood the basics of that? Or is it like, I'm starting to come along for the ride now?

Claire: time, I think Altereco was maybe about 11 or 12 years old, something like that. And. James actually hired my best friend before I came along. So she was traveling in Central America and he knew that she was coming back. And he hired her because Alter Ego was just starting to grow.

It went from just James to Mel to I think maybe about five or six. And James was pretty aware that, you know, he knew what he was good at, but it, , he didn't have, I guess, systems and processes instilled. And that's what my mate did. in her role. So she jumped across, she worked for OzEco, I think for about, , 18 months.

And then her and James were very, very, very different the [00:06:00] way that they worked. , so she was pretty aware that she didn't want to, I guess ruin the friendship. So she was like, stepping back. And she said to me, we're having breakfast one day, we're up at the Gold Coast Marathon, actually.

Before the knees um, knackered and we're having breakfast and she goes, Oh, why, why don't you work for Altereco? And initially I'm like, that's a horrible idea. And then I, but I started to think about it because there wasn't really much progression for me in the footwear industry. I didn't want to, you know, be a national sales manager or anything like that.

And I didn't want to be a sales rep for the rest of my life. Nothing wrong with that. But, um, yeah, I guess I wanted something to try something a bit different.

So here we are.

Matt: it's obvious, so it's pretty common in the building industry for like, say a partner or a husband, wife to jump on board the business and work alongside them. So how do you navigate this? Because I can imagine it's very tough not to bring your work home with you. But how do you create that boundary between work and life?

Because I'm sure there's been some times that you guys had big disagreements on something or how you should do something or how did you manage that? And how do you create boundaries?

Claire: Yeah. We actually haven't had any massive blowups or disagreements over the years, which is really nice. You have little micro ones constantly. and I think that's a really, you know, positive about working with a partner. If you can be fully transparent with one another, you don't take things personally.

you have to kind of choose your language and be respectful, but you don't have to kind of pussyfoot around. We can have these really kind of open conversations. but yeah, no, we've never had a massive, massive blow up. Thankfully, but yeah, at the start we did sit down with, with a guy, can't remember his title, but he kind of helps us understand one another's learning types and personality types when it comes to work.

he helps us kind of be aware that we need to set boundaries. So, it's difficult though, because at the end of the day, when you go home, you still kind of need to kind of problem solve and chat about things, but you don't want it to drag on into the, into the evening.

So it's pretty much, you know, after 6pm, let's, let's kind of draw a line in the sun there. And we always said, look, there's definitely no, no talk about work in the bedroom. that was kind of a hard and [00:08:00] fast rule. It's not very romantic, is it?

Hamish: I was, I was, I was just going to say it's certainly not something that I used in the bedroom work talk. Matt and I come from pretty similar backgrounds in terms of we kind of came into the construction industry a little bit.

In a little bit of a different way than your typical leave school, go to trade and then, become a builder from my experience. Now , I'm pretty sure Matt can share the same, uh, experience, but I've found with my experience in working in a number of different roles, particularly in customer service, and in, hospitality, those kinds of skills have really allowed me to, I guess, show up differently to clients and I me responding to certain situations differently to some other builders.

I'm curious to know, like, with your experience working in a completely different industry, do you think that's actually helped you, or you've brought a different level of skill set to AlterEco that maybe wouldn't have been there hadn't had that past experience?

Claire: I mean, I think to be a, uh, in the role that I was in, it was very much a people facing role. So I talked to different people all day, every day, and a really kind of broad spectrum of people as well. The spectrum of people that I would deal with at Essex and Missoula is probably broader than what we're dealing with here, with our clients, we're very kind of alike in some ways.

So yeah, I guess having the ability to talk to people is always, beneficial. , you know, I kind of felt a little bit of, I guess, imposter syndrome when I came across, but because, you know, I didn't have any of those hard skills, but those soft skills, , were there I think, and can kind of sometimes be overlooked.

, but yeah, I still, pretty important when it comes to creating relationships and, you know, nurturing not only clients, but staff as well. you know, I can read people fairly well still learning that stuff all the time, but yeah, I guess it's kind of, I'm pretty like to think I'm a little bit intuitive, , which can be, a [00:10:00] useful skill to have, I suppose.

Hamish: , I know Matt and I talk a lot about vulnerability and like, you know, just being straight up when we don't know something. And I know for me, it's, it, my life completely changed when I said, look, I don't know everything, , please help me here.

Did you find, maybe in those, earlier years,, that actually showing a little bit of vulnerability to people actually helped you pick up the skills a lot quicker because you were actually asking for help rather than kind of bluff your way through it and fall forward. Um,

Claire: start. I didn't really feel that embarrassed about doing that. I think, I guess, coming into a company where my husband, , was the director, kind of, I felt a lot more comfortable. I wonder if I'd have stepped into another, uh, firm where, you know, I didn't have that initial relationship.

It might've been a little bit harder. , but, you know, we had at the time, we do now, it's a different team, but a really kind of , supportive, open team. It was, fine to be, you know, not knowing everything. And that's still, I guess, that the environment that we try and create now, like we, we get together every, every fortnight on a Thursday at four o'clock, we have a beer and some hummus, hummus and dips, and we kind of reflect on the last fortnight and we ask ourselves a few questions, what went well, what didn't go well, what could be improved?

, cause we're having, you know, we're making these kind of micro mistakes and micro or sometimes macro. Mistakes and learnings all the time. So it's really good to, to share them with the team, and hopefully the more that we share them, , the more open they are kind of sharing their kind of imperfections as well.

Matt: Have you found that hard to get some of your team to open up and sort of be honest about the mistakes they make? Because sometimes it's not easy, especially to a director and their partner.

Claire: Yeah. I think some, some are more open than others. it comes down to, personality types as well. And also, you know, and I find it really difficult as well. I'm like, okay, I want to be open and vulnerable here, but I don't know how much to [00:12:00] share as well.

Because, if I'm really stressed, how much of that do you actually share with your team? Because you don't want them to take the stress on, but you want them to know that it's okay when they're struggling because we're probably struggling with kind of similar, similar themes. So yeah, it's something that I'm kind of constantly trying to work

Matt: It's trial and error. I know I've found like , I'm quite open when I'm to my team, like I'm having a shit day. I either just don't call me, if you're going to call me, be, make it important. But this is what I've done in the past 24 hours. This is how I'm dealing with it.

don't think that you'd have ever, ever have that intention of pushing that stress onto someone else.

And knowing your team, I don't think they would ever feel that way either.

Claire: No, not intentionally, but I think there have been times where I've maybe overshared. And maybe should have been a little bit. I mean, at the end of, I think at the end of 2000, 22, I got really, really stressed towards the end of that year and it was starting to manifest physically. That was the year that we built our house and it was just one of those manic years.

We just had fucking four years of manicness. And then I think we had about two or three building permits to get over the line before the end of the year. And yeah, I got super stressed. , at that time, probably shared a little bit too much. yeah.

Matt: I guess you'll learn from it and that happens again and you just probably approach it maybe a different way.

Claire: Yeah. Yeah.

Matt: So, it probably goes on to, like, I've known you for a while now, , like, you and your team are designing my own house that we're about to start. And I don't think I've ever met someone who cares so much about a client's experience.

So I've obviously been on the, the builder side of things working with you, but also now on a client side and I've enjoyed both just as much as each other. So from my side of things, you become a little bit emotional, like you become emotionally involved in a project and you really take it to heart when things don't go the way they should.

where does this caring nature sort of come from and why do you care so much?

Claire: I guess by nature, I'm a bit of an empath, so I kind of coming in with that baseline. , but then I, I feel a huge sense of responsibility when someone approaches us with their biggest asset, with their life savings, and they approach us as their [00:14:00] lead consultant to design their dream house, especially at the moment when the market has been so volatile over the last few years.

I really take that super, super seriously. And I think we should, I think anyone in the industry that's kind of involved should be taking and feeling that responsibility. I maybe take it a little bit too far sometimes. You know, I think if you spoke to our clients, they wouldn't know. They don't see all the stress and, the emotion that happens in the background. So I think they would be surprised to kind of learn that. Like I remember speaking to a client at the end of last year you know, these clients have been on a journey with us for the last, I think it was about two and a half years.

And they got like, I think that their builder walked out on them the day before they were due to sign contracts. And then we had to get another builder involved and then the price goes up. And this, this budget was tight anyway. And the building permit was a pain in the ass. And these are the most, the most beautiful, uh, level headed, great clients.

So you really, you're really kind of on this journey with him. You're really feeling it. And I remember we've got the building permit through that week and I, gave her a call and we're like, laughing in relief about the journey. And I said, Oh, you know, I actually woke up in the middle of the night, a couple of weeks ago, threatened about your building permit.

And she's like, Oh. Oh, right. I didn't know that I'd been stressful for you too. And I'm thinking, yeah, wow. That was a bit of an eye opener. I mean, I mean, they shouldn't, I don't want to put our stress onto them and I'm glad they don't, but it was really like, oh, okay. No, we're, behind the scenes. We're shitting our pants sometimes, you

Matt: I know and you don't want to have these conversations with clients like you don't want to go to them and be like hey this isn't working like that's no one gets excited about that conversation you take it personal

Claire: yeah. We always say like, we, we don't want to go if we can't avoid it. We don't want to go to a client with a problem. We want to come to them with the problem and then the solution. If we can. So that's kind of our approach to things. but yeah, I don't know fully. It's probably some deep seated childhood shit as well going on in there.

Like that real sense of [00:16:00] responsibility. I've got a bit of an idea where it comes from.

Hamish: look, I think for me, like, um, cause obviously we've, , we've had some dealings, Claire. Like, I think for me, like hearing that, I am also an empath by nature and I really matters to me that, , our clients are having a great experience.

So, and when you pile on all those little things, the staff, , the building costs, the stress about payments and all that kind of stuff, it can get, Really overwhelming do you find that there are certain things that help you? Some of that stress and anxiety. I know you've gone for a ride this morning and I've shared that I've worked out this morning too. And I, I certainly find that exercise is a really big way to help manage my, anxiety and diagnosed ADHD as well. Like, did you find that like, You have little things that help you, support yourself through these times.

Claire: Yeah, for sure. Exercise is absolutely massive for me. Yeah. I've always, I used to play hockey, then I ran, and then now I cycle quite a lot. And to be honest, I've probably got a bit of an addiction to it. Like, I think if exercise got taken away, I wouldn't like to know what, what would happen.

It really, really helps me, I guess, process a lot of stuff, and then also sometimes switch off. So for example, that mountain bike ride I went on this morning, I'm on single, relatively technical, single track, not technical for me. I'm not thinking about anything else.

mountain biking is a great switch off, exercise in general is a good way to kind of shift that energy and shift that stress out of my body. , getting out into nature as well as massive

Yeah

Hamish: that beautiful house that I can see in the background a lot, but I know where you guys are. You've got the best of both worlds. You've got that grounding. , water body next to you, being the ocean, but then you've also got beautiful trails you can head out to, , and go mountain bike riding or hiking or something like that.

I mean, a lot can be said for actually just being. , surrounding by nature. And I certainly, for me, you know, if I've [00:18:00] got something that I can't quite resolve in my head and I've got a million thought processes running, if I'm out on my bike for a couple of hours, when really all I can do is have one train of thought that actually allows me to problem solve

Claire: Totally. Yeah. And I find when I am cycling, I don't know what happens in my brain anyway, but these kind of pathways seem to open up and I seem to suddenly start to kind of feel quite articulate about a few things and yeah, I don't know. It just kind of clears the mind, I suppose. I don't know the neuroscience behind it, but something is happening

So yeah, exercise is probably the main one for me. Yeah. And, you know, talking as well. So talking to James, talking to friends and being just honest and open with, how I am

Hamish: I mean, I've been quite open about this. I've seen a psychologist, you know, every three or four weeks. And, we talk about just finding what your recipe is because everyone's recipe is going to be different. and I, for me, my recipe, a big part of it is exercise. And, you know, I do think if that was taken away, how I would deal with it.

, but my recipes, exercise, Claire, yours is Maddie. I know you, you, you try and keep quite fit, but it could be knitting a beanie. It could be playing board games, you know, it's just finding what is it that thing that you can, get in that sort of flow state with and just block everything else out.

Like it's so important what, whatever it is. Like find that.

Matt: It's, as long as it's not work. 'cause like that can so easily become the distraction too. And I know I fell on it. I've fallen into that trap a number of

Hamish: Right. Yeah.

Matt: Like so many times I'm like, oh, I'm stressed, I'm sorry. I'm just gonna go work more. I know that is so fucking unhealthy.

Claire: Yeah. You need that separation.

Hamish: I reckon this is a whole other podcast episode, but like I find, like when I'm stressed and say if I go for a ride, there's usually a problem that I'm trying to solve. And if I kind of remove all that noise that is sort of bothering me and then focus on that problem, even though I'm not working, [00:20:00] it is really, for me, it's like related to work.

but I would usually come home sort of feeling elated because I've solved the problem and I've got all these good chemicals running around my body. But yeah, you're right, Maddy, like sitting in front of an Excel spreadsheet until three o'clock in the morning is not good for anyone.

Matt: Unless you're an investment banker, because that's what they just love doing, yeah?

Hamish: Yeah. Well, yeah, that sounds boring, doesn't

Claire: Good luck to them.

Matt: That's what my best mate does, so it's a bit of a slight to get him if he's ever going to listen to this. , but, over the last few years, there's obviously been sort of a number of ups and downs and a lot of things our industry is out of sort of everyone's control. How have you managed this when we, everyone knows these factors are outside of your control, but how do you actually manage them?

Because you're the face. Essentially when people call your business, they get you.

Claire: yeah, I don't know. It's really hard. It's really hard. Like it's a constant roller coaster, isn't it? And it never feels like the highs never feel as high as the lows feel low. Or for me anyway, I think when we do have a win.

What I try and do now is be like, Hey, everyone, let's just kind of sit in this for a while, because I think it's really important to man, to, to acknowledge those good times because they help to buffer the shit.

and I guess just being really aware of how the brain works, like your brain will latch onto a negative thing more than it will a positive to kind of, it's an, as an evolution thing, right.

To keep us alive and quite often not useful.

Matt: On Instagram and sitting there, that's that instant gratification that people want to get sort of thing or

a really good podcast I actually listened to the other day on, Diary of a CEO and it's about, through a mental health expert and stress and fucking blew my mind.

Claire: Yeah. It's a good podcast that one. Um,

Hamish: Claire, like just sitting in that wind for a while, like that to me conjures up these like really amazing things in my brain, like literally just sitting there and [00:22:00] having this aura of like awesomeness around me, and I know for me, I don't do that enough.

Like,

Claire: Yeah.

Hamish: I kind of feel that we might share some similar personality traits, and it's so easy, as you said, to grab on to that negative, and really not then celebrate those positive things, and I don't know, I just love what that conjures up in my mind, sitting in the wind. I'm certainly going to use that. I'm going to steal that off you.,

Claire: yeah, I think James is a classic for not sitting in the wind as well. Just kind of pushing on to the next thing, pushing on to the next thing, pushing on to the next thing. so yeah, I try to push on. Hey, tap on the shoulders. We've just got a front cover of Sanctuary last month. this is fucking

Hamish: Big shout out, guys. Well done. Congratulations, Karl and Construction Alterecos. Front page Sanctuary Magazine.

Matt: so on biggest win, and at some point later I'm going to ask you what your biggest mistake you ever made is. What is the biggest win you've had?,

Claire: I think it's the, culture that we've curated at Altereco, , with our team, I'm really proud of that. And I'm also really. proud that we only take on projects that are meaningful for us now. Um, yeah, like, um, 2019, end of 2019, we all sat down as a team.

We went to actually before the year kicked off, we went down to White River for five days. We have a mate that's got a holiday house there. , and we sat down as a team and we kind of round tabled what's important to us. How do we want to show up for ourselves? How do we want to show up for each other kind of environment?

, do we want to foster? And what kind of projects do we want to take on as well? And that was about maybe six months after James had done the Passive House course. And, you know, before that, you know, we were called Altereco and we were called, you know, we classify ourselves as in sustainable building designs, but we didn't really know what that meant.

But I think doing the Passive House course. really helped us to kind of really draw that hard and fast line in the sand. And you know, only taking on projects that are, you know, high performance is the minimum. I'm really [00:24:00] proud of the legacy of projects that we will now leave behind , from that point onwards. And know, these houses are going to be standard long after we've left the planet. So it's a pretty broad win, but yeah, I'm really happy with , the direction. It took a while,

Hamish: I think that's a massive win. I don't know, Matt and I probably had a, had a really similar revelation when, I'm not going to use this term loosely, but we found Passive House, right? It sounds like a bloody religion or something. Like we are obviously Passive House builders, high performance builders.

But I think for me, what it did for my chaotic brain, it gave structure. Like it was very definite, the recipe that you had to follow. And for, for so long, I was Sanctum Homes in a boat flying a sustainability flag with no rudder. And then as soon as I found Passive House, jammed that rudder in, it gave me direction.

Like, that's what I felt for me. And it's funny, like the timelines that you're talking about are quite similar to Sanctum Homes as well. I think it was 2007 or 2018 that we did the course. And it was at that point that we're very much like you were like, you know what, from now on, this is all we're doing. And we drew a line in the sand too. It's

Claire: good. Yeah.

Matt: It comes down to choices though. Like, you guys actively made the choice to go, you know what, fuck this, we're gonna do something about it. Like, I think that's saying to, my champion.

Claire: Yeah.

Matt: Like, you just didn't say you're gonna do it, you've actually done it and your results have spoken for it. Like, you've got evidence to back that up.

Claire: Yeah. I mean, sustainability has always been a massive thing for James and I. , so the Plastic House course , just made sense to do it, to try it. And then as soon as you know what you know with that stuff, then , there's no turning back.

Hamish: I'm going to call it another massive win for you too, Claire. And it's that beautiful home that I watched being built, over, , 12, 14 months. watching it all come together. , like that's certainly something you guys should be proud of because it is beautiful.

Claire: Thank you. Jeez. I'm getting emotional now. Cause I am really, proud. Yeah

Hamish: me too.[00:26:00]

Claire: Yeah.

Matt: it is fucking awesome. Like, I remember coming down that day to sort of help you guys talk out windows. I just still remember you sitting there stapling, putting tape over every single staple in that building. So I've actually, I've actually first hand experienced what you guys were doing. , and I like, I'm about to go through it with my wife. And I look to you guys for inspiration on that because I know it's going to be difficult. And I'm probably at times going to lean on you guys to be like, How do you deal with it? Like, how do you just remove yourself from that project? Because it's all after hours.

Claire: that was a massive year. James owner built it. And so it was obviously project managing at the same time as running Altereco. and yeah, I'm super, super proud of him for that's a massive job. Like I was working. , you know, in order to eco and, doing a bit of stuff at our houses, all of the insulating and the wrapping and whatnot.

But yeah, he kind of took the lion's share, so I'm, I'm massively proud of him , for that.

Matt: You should also be proud of yourself.

Claire: Yeah. Yeah. I am proud of , what we've both achieved.

Hamish: favorite videos that you guys popped up during that time. I remember it quite clearly. There's two, there's one of James, , with a squidgy. Pulling condensation off the window on the inside of the rental property that you guys were

Claire: yeah

Hamish: And then about that, you know, you're so excited to move into the new home because it's not going to have that.

And the other one was, I think you did a video of when you were sitting in your car because you had COVID when they're doing the blower door test. And, you were like on the phone with James while they're doing the blower door test. And, uh.

Claire: That was hectic. Like, I obviously couldn't come in the house, but we were renting out in Freshwater Creek about 25 minutes away, and I could have just called him from From where we were living. Right. But no, I had to get in the car and sit outside. Not that I could do anything else, but it just, cause I really wanted to be a part of it.

Matt: ,

I think that goes back to you caring so much and that's what I love about it.

Claire: yeah, yeah. I guess so. I guess I get pretty passionate about what's [00:28:00] important

Matt: one thing you do get passionate about though is the whole budget versus brief conversation.

Claire: yeah.

Matt: It's probably one of the most difficult and challenging things to navigate in what we do. So when a client sort of comes to you, say a 350k budget and the brief sort of suggests that it's going to be upwards of 1, 1 million, 1.

5. How do you go about having this conversation? Because it's not easy.

Claire: Yeah, I actually find it like, it wouldn't be easy if we just sign them on. But thinking that I'm going to do something for 350 and it was going to be approaching a million. That would be a disgusting conversation to have at one point. You But when we're having those conversations, it's so, so early on. So like when we get an inquiry, I give them a call and say good day and explain who I am and ask them about them and what they want to achieve.

And look, I plant the seed, I say, look, we're going to send you a little brief, vision builder form. That's going to get some info around your brief. , what's important to you. We're also going to ask you the really curly question around your construction budget. When we get that back, we'll look at the site, we'll look at your brief, we'll look at your budget and we'll give you this kind of real high level appraisal of what we think it might be.

And I said, look, , I'll warn you now, we, we can be the front police at this stage. , and you know what They're actually really thankful that we're not going to string them along. , I don't like having those conversations, but it's better than the, uh, the alternative of signing someone on and then, , wasting a lot of their time and money and energy on something that's not viable.

So

Hamish: I kind of feel that like it's a conversation we've had so many times over the last three or four years that it sort of comes natural now. I mean, we're, very much the same. Like , we charge for our time in Preconstruction and we're not gonna take clients' money if we know, if they've got a hard stop on their budget.

Claire: Yeah

Hamish: We're going to be very honest with them , from day one, where we think the expectation of their budget is going to be. and you're absolutely right. Like I think clients, when you're so honest with them like that, they really welcome that feedback. Cause you could so easily suck them into the funnel and then break their [00:30:00] heart at the other end.

I mean, that's

Matt: yeah, you've been paid.

Hamish: It's not good for anybody. Not good. you guys, I mean, seeing how passionate you are, Claire, the last thing that you guys want to do is invest all of this energy into designing someone's dream home. Only for those plans to end up in the bin.

Like you want to see the reality of it

Matt: and it happens so often.

Claire: Yeah. The industry is fraught with it. Hey, that just gives me the biggest anxiety , and when we do sign someone on, we ask for two numbers, we ask for their ideal budget and their tipping point, but you never know whether people are playing you as well. It's so hard to know, like some people say their tipping point is X, but it's actually Y, some it's X and it's a hard X, , it's, Oh, it's less than X.

Matt: that's the hard one.

Hamish: and if there is actually anyone out there listening to the podcast, like, you know, if you are about to build a house, like just don't be shy to tell the budget, like, be really honest about that because. We need goals to aim for.

Claire: it helps us help them, you know. , so, yeah.

Matt: And I think we all have one, like we all run in very similar sort of philosophies with our business. Like the projects, the champion, no one's bigger than anyone else. And by having that information on a budget, it just helps the client in the end, because we can get there. We can, we can design around it.

We can be honest and be like, look, unfortunately this isn't going to work. And you can have that fun place conversation, which. just stopping you delaying that conversation for another point. When they're 50, already spent and all of a sudden they can't afford

Hamish: It's, it's impossible to give any input on value management options, unless you know what, you know, that tipping point is like, it's impossible. You're just guessing. You're just guessing.

Matt: and no one has a money tree. Like, if they do, I would love to know where they got theirs from.

Hamish: Yep.

Claire: Yeah, tell me to

Matt: so you're sort of dealing with some frustrated and impatient and angry clients at times, and you don't get to do the fun sort of pretty pictures and drawings, say like James would do, and you've, you sort of got to keep James focused, avoided from [00:32:00] distractions.

Like what's in it for you? Like,

Claire: Good question. It's not the payment, I'll tell you that right now. We're not in this business to make a million dollars., I have had these conversations with James before, you know, I'm not in the really, glamorous design meetings where the clients are frothing and getting super excited.

Quite often when James and I are sat in front of a client, it's when we're having an awkward conversation. So what's in it for me? . I don't know. It's a hard, hard question to answer. I just, I guess, acknowledging that, yeah, I'm quite often involved in difficult conversations.

And, I guess the, the upside. So, again, kind of going back to the highs don't feel as high as the lows feel low, it can be really difficult.

Sometimes it just feels like you're constantly dealing with shit.

Hamish: I'm going to, I'm going to jump in and help you answer that question because you've told us throughout this podcast, like what you guys are in it for. You care environment. You care about creating a legacy. , you care about, people and how they live and feel in a home.

Like to me, that's what you're in it for. Like you're in it for this, it's much more than just pretty pictures, right? This is someone's home. This is where they're going to live. This, we're going to raise a family. It's where they're going to have dogs and pets and all that kind of stuff. Like, , for me saying, , someone move into their home and hand their keys, like that is probably the single best feeling that I get from my job.

And I know Matt doesn't do this, but I do a lot of work for my friends. And actually going back and being in a space that you've created and actually seeing them live their life within this home is like, the money's nice, right? But seeing that trumps any money in my bank account. And I say that hand on heart.

Claire: it's pretty special, isn't it? I remember one of my first projects, which is the Carlton Construction Project, actually. one of the first clients that I saw right there, I was involved right the way through. , we did a photo shoot and that, , and then I think the day after that, the clients were moving in.

[00:34:00] And then after the photo shoot, we moved all the furniture out. I went back in and I left a card and a little gift. And I just took a few seconds to kind of look around. And yeah, here I am getting emotional again. And yeah, I felt like it's an amazing feeling, isn't it? Cause you've just, delivered on what, what you've promised you.

You say you're going to deliver on, , you know, these people have trusted you with the biggest asset and it's been really stressful for them along the journey, but they've trusted you regardless. And to deliver that, that's an amazing

Hamish: Yeah, 100%.

Claire: I

Matt: So, so funnily enough, before, before we were recording, I actually told that same story to Hamish and I actually remember you doing that.

I didn't realize that was one of the first houses that you sort of involved with. I, I, I actually thought you'd been part of the business for a long period of time before that, or I just assumed it.

, and I actually remember you sitting there on the, yeah, put it right in the letter, put in the bottle of wine with the card on it and just being like, thank you. I actually remember that.

Claire: Yeah. And I guess it comes back to that kind of just pause and celebrating the wins kind of thing. Like it would be just to kind of go on to the next shit.

Matt: And that's probably something that I've learned from this chat here for the last 45 minutes is to like, I really need to celebrate my wings way

Hamish: Sitting in the wind, Matt. Sitting in the wind. I've got it written down here with asterisks around it, and a big circle around it. Sitting in the wind.

Matt: So, every guest we have on this podcast, I'm gonna ask, What's the biggest mistake you've made in this industry? I know it's sort of ironic that we've been talking about winds for the last 30 seconds, but what's the biggest mistake you've made?,

Claire: when we have stuff ups,, it's usually down to two things. One is not following, being really strict on following our process. Yeah. Yeah., so for example, if a, if a client wants to bring in their own interior designer, , you get this interior designer that's not mindful or respectful of the budget or is designing kind of these half arches that can't even be, constructed anyway.

, that's, and we've been too timid in the past, I think. Now we have in our terms and conditions, you assign an Altereco and you get an Altereco, you get an interior designers as well. [00:36:00] Or, you know, we've, had a couple of projects where we haven't insisted on pre tender and that never goes well, especially in this, this day and age.

So that's been a massive learning for us. We've just been too timid in the past when clients have come to us and said, Oh yeah, I want to do the tender myself. I want to bring in my own interior designer. and then the next big thing, and this is massive, it generally comes back down to communication.

And you cannot, I have learned. communicate enough., And we've definitely made the mistake in the past that, that people understand more than they do. Like we do this every day, day in, day out. We're doing it for years, but for most clients, it's the first time they're going through something like this. So we've made assumptions in the past, , that shouldn't have been made, I suppose.

, I'll give you an example. So I think it was end of October last year, we had a, meeting with a client and a builder to present the pretender estimate and that was all good. Let's move forward. Based on that, and then the builder had kind of said off the cuff. Oh, yeah, cool. I can start in February.

And at that point, we should have said, , we still got to go through time planning. We've got to at least get prelim interior designs that happen in. We've got to. Working drawings, engineering, volume, like pricing, volume, management, permits. There's so much water to go under the bridge at that stage.

And I guess, and we should have said like, no, we, that's, that's not enough time. We just assumed that the client also knew that that was a ridiculous timeframe, right? Which was a mistake. So you know, it gets to the end of last year and we're setting out the next steps for, for this year. And they, they were kind of fully, thinking that they'd be starting in February.

and that's because, yeah, we didn't, take the time to be like, no, this is, this is actually what it's going to take. So, yeah, communication and not following the process is, um, that's when it usually lands us in hot water.

Matt: I think sometimes we forget that we're in this industry all the time and we're surrounded by it and we just assume everyone has an idea of building where we live in this bit of bubble where they, they don't.

Hamish: Do you know what's really [00:38:00] interesting? about that comment, Matty, is that, , it sounded if the builder at that, particular project was pushing the start date,

we operate by trying to set dates, , but we generally send that set ambitious ones , sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but you know, for me, I know in my brain, if I'm not working towards a date, it becomes too ambiguous.

And I'll just float. I need a deadline in my brain, I need a deadline to work off. And I'm Claire, I'm sure you're the same. Maddy, I know you're the same.

Claire: Yeah. And I think those dates are great, but I think what I've learned as well is just to under promise and over deliver. I'm really conservative, to be honest, when it comes to timelines, because we've been bitten too many times in the past. Because shit always takes longer than we think it's going to, especially with building permits these days and value management that's involved.

Hamish: banks. Yeah, finance is just

Claire: Thanks. Yeah.

Hamish: finance. Yeah.

Matt: Look, it's not easy. And I think as you go back to your original comment, there's so much stuff that happens behind the scenes that even though it's out of your control, like dealing with a bank, you take it personally. You feel like it's your fault when you've got no

You can't change even half a percent on what's going to happen.

And I think that's things that like, when we just want good things for our clients, or potential clients, or future clients, that, yeah, you can quickly get caught up in the emotion of just trying to people please. And generally, yeah. But , thank you for coming on today. , I know, from my side of things, working with you over the years, like I love working with you and your team.

, there's definitely times I've called you for a chitchat just to vent or, , seek some advice and you always got a clear understanding of the, what I'm talking about and provide great sort of solutions to my problems. So I, I thank you for that. And someone I definitely look up to, to in this industry.

So. Thank you for sharing everything today. , , I really, really appreciate, um, you jumping on because it's not easy sometimes being open and that's what we're trying to change. We want this industry to be better. And, and it will be, , but it's one slow step at a time. We just need more Claire's, uh, in

Claire: thanks. Thanks for this podcast. I think it's great to introduce a little bit of vulnerability into, into a building podcast as well. we should be [00:40:00] having more, more conversations about, anyway

Hamish: look from my side thanks so much like the passion

comes through strong which is an amazing thing by the way like and I kind of wear my heart on my sleeve as well um and it's nice to hear that there are other people in the industry that do the same so yeah thank you for coming on and um and also thank you very much for reaching out personally when my dog passed away that actually meant a lot so thank you very much for that.

Claire: Yeah. It's tough. No, I was thinking of you, , , like I said, we lost , our dog Cooper in 2019 and it's really hard, like even now and again, I'm getting a bit emotional,

Hamish: Claire, thank you so much. And, um, I know that people are going to get a lot out of this conversation. So thanks again for coming on.