How do you measure brand lift, brand awareness, brand performance? what are the KPIs there? They were so light on that. Of course they were. Yeah. Literally no solution was offered. Aside from, maybe there's a couple of things, but they're just so highly esoteric that they just didn't even mention them. And that's what myself and our customer were looking at. Cause we were doing this strategy right now for them. And leaned over to him. I was like, this is all great, how are we going to measure it all? And he's I want to see that part of the show and they never got to it. I've got an answer for them. it's Murr over time. It's media efficiency, ratio expanded. it's based on some assumptions, right? Increased brand awareness ultimately will increase ROI. That's more or less the assumption. And so if I was advertising last year and all of the variables are the same and I'm advertising this year. And my brand awareness has gone up in theory, then, other levers will have been improved. click through rate is better. Conversion rate is better. Customer take rate is better. Retention is better. Cause I have better brand awareness. And so I should be able to see the improvements, based on that comparison to that timeline. dude, it makes sense philosophically. if we were in school right now, teaching marketing, that's an easy thing to put in a textbook. That feels like an impossible thing to sell. I don't know how to sell that. if I got a lead this morning and I had to hop on the call with this customer and I'm going to go sell them brand performance, I'm going to feel silly. it's a bit of a leap of faith when it comes to like when it comes right down to it. And the funny thing was is that, I don't know if you've read. his book, but, Byron Sharpe was one of the speakers. Byron Sharpe is this very, well known best selling offer wrote how brands grow. It was, they're actually giving away is like his second iteration of that book at the conference, which was worth it unto itself, which is cool. It just a really interesting dude, from New Zealand. And he basically said he doesn't do anything like model mix marketing, which is an esoteric way of tracking and making sure that everything is being done accurately. And I haven't seen a model where it works perfectly every single time. One of his takeaways is he said to a bunch of performance marketers, you don't need to measure everything. You can actually miss some stuff as long as you're keeping an eye on the big picture back to your philosophy on this, which is, which I agree with, which is Murr. so there is a certain leap of faith when it comes to brand, but here is the key takeaways with, we'll throw in some stats here is that you don't have to go from conversion ads. let's say you're running conversion ads right now. And chances are, if you're listening to this show, most of your meta ads are website conversion ads. Great. Good place to start. That's where I would start. And you can optimize that. You can separate out your levels of traffic. You can go back to listen to 500 episodes of professional traffic. We talk about all this sort of stuff. Point is you don't have to start with, Oh, I need to start building brand and spending twice as much on brand awareness or reach campaigns. No, you do it in slow increments. You do it over time. So that when you do this, you start building up your own brand voice, but you're seeing not a huge decrease in the effectiveness of your conversion ads. So for example, like with a client of ours, we're doing this at a hundred dollars a day for not brand awareness, top of funnel ads. Like just, Hey, get the brand out there. No call to action. All we're looking for is brand recall is our conversion action. we're doing this with consideration campaigns, which is middle of funnel traffic campaigns, maybe a middle of funnel conversion with a website conversion objective for a lead. Not necessarily a sale or for reading a blog post or for watching a video views, like you can do it in increments. So we actually have a test running right now where we're testing five different top and middle of funnel campaigns and seeing which ones are the ones that have the most lift on the backend for us at tier 11. It's specifically, it is book schedule calls. and those book schedule calls through, the way in which we track, which it gets pretty close to figuring out what works and what doesn't at the top of the funnel. It's not exact, but it gets pretty damn close. We're starting to see lift. Overall, just in leads, quality leads for our ideal customer profile. and that's how you do it. You do it in small increments and Byron sharp. One of his big takeaways is don't do burst advertising. Don't just throw a bunch of ads out there and then stop. Just do it slowly and consistently over time and start building this over time, because what you'll start to see is not huge gains in a lot of marketers, performance marketers, especially are looking for big gains immediately. Oh, I got a three X ROI when I changed this one thing in my campaign, whatever that thing is, it's probably cause you like up to your creative. You did a lot of sort of things that we talk about here on the show. Maybe you started incorporating creator content. That's actually really good, really speaks to your avatars, pain points, desires, whatever it happens to be. However, your product solves that particular problem. But in most cases, like you're just going to get incremental gains and all those incremental gains start to add up and start to build your brand without you really even thinking that you're a brand advertiser. And so you can do it with just small campaigns and then grow them over time. And we've done this now as a case study that we have to talk about here on the show, but we did it where they were spending about seven grand a month on brand sort of middle of funnel consideration campaigns. And over a seven month period, they're now at 70, 000 a month and spend because, and their Google spend and a really super competitive space is flat to down. And their cost per acquisition is down by 50%. So stay tuned for that episode. Cause that's going to be a one. I think you definitely don't want to listen to where we're applying all this. what I'm trying to do right now is just shift your mindset. And yeah, we've gotten some comments from some people saying like, ah, stop talking about the bloody red ocean of website conversion campaigns and a high intent keywords. You know what? Screw that guy. Because the point is you should be talking about this. Cause that's where everything's going. CPMs in those spaces are not getting any cheaper. It's not going to get better. You can offset it with this. What we're seeing now is when we start to blend in consideration and awareness campaigns, our overall CPMs are decreasing because we have less reliance on the areas where there's more competition. That does make sense. you said it earlier, but there's a leap of faith required because you have to commit longer period of time than you'd be able to attribute conversions to anyway. We're used to saying in the standard narrative, in the very beginning, it was 30 days. Now it's 90 days. I'm sure it's going to get longer than that for conversion marketers. But Yeah. Okay. you have to wipe your slate there a little bit and not think in those 90 day epochs because that's not what this is at all, which in a really interesting way, man, you have to be so confident in your core assumptions. You have to be really confident in what you're offering. You have to be really confident in who you're targeting. You have to be really confident in your messaging. Like this, peels all the way back. it's funny because before the show, we were talking about mad men. This is Don Draper stuff, man. like you just have to feel really confident. About your approach, because you're going to be putting a ton of weight, a ton of money and a ton of time behind that approach without any formal indications of success.