[00:00:00] Nina Endrst: Hi, I'm Nina Endrst.

[00:00:05] Anna Toonk: I'm Anna Toonk.

[00:00:06] Nina Endrst: Welcome to how to be human.

[00:00:08] Anna Toonk: A podcast that explores the common and often confusing themes of humanness.

[00:00:12] Nina Endrst: On this episode, Anna and I discuss discipline

Take a seat clear mind and let's chat.

Hello?

[00:00:23] Anna Toonk: Hello. I'm about to be like, oh, you wrote it. Oh my God. I think we've done that a million times a million times, but I don't want to make light of Tourette's, but I very much understand like having verbal ticks in the sense of like, I really struggle sometimes if, once something's in my brain, every time you asked me, are you ready?

Like, don't do it. Don't do it. And yet here we are.

[00:00:55] Nina Endrst: I'm happy to be here. It's a nice day for

[00:00:59] Anna Toonk: us. It is a nice day. We officially closed the doors to the soul unity and officially opened the doors to the how to be human pod.com site, which is very exciting. Yeah.

[00:01:15] Nina Endrst: You can have lots of extra phone over there with us if you want.

We have a membership up, so check it out if you wish, but we're just excited to be creating the way we want. And also, I don't know about you, Anna, but for me, I'm just happy to let go of something that I, you know, was holding onto, not out of ego, but speaking of discipline. Right? Sometimes I think I got stuck in trying to prove it to myself, that I can put my head down and do the work and stay the course.

And it's important to whether professionally or personally check in from time to time and be like, really? Why am I doing.

[00:02:00] Anna Toonk: Yeah. I feel like a lot of the ways in which I maybe learned discipline as a youth or when I was younger, I'm realizing now, as I get older, it's a bit of a guide, but ultimately it's like coming, always coming back to like, do you enjoy it?

And I think that you and I are definitely passionate about wellness. We're passionate about people feeling informed and. You know, feeling knowledgeable about how to seek out what they're after or healing modalities or things like that. But I think like we really like a thing I used to say all the time was like that someone I worked with said was like, you need, you have to be about it, like, be about it, about stuff.

And that would often be what he would yell like in frustration, you know, and be like, people need to be about it, you know? And he was right. You know, like he was a designer animator. So his job really was reliant upon people giving him information, you know, and like being like check it, like it's a waste, like you're wasting my time.

And so I incorporated that it was like, you need to be about it. And I think like you, and I realized what if we could be about it in a different way. And one that aligns more, I think just like with our personality. So, you know, We're not, I think sometimes, sometimes people can feel like everyone's trying to like monetize everything in terms of the membership.

We, you know, we do believe in money having an energetic value and we still want to make content. So for us, it's just a way to sort of, kind of maintain some of that, but also be truer, I think, to ourselves in terms of what we're doing, that it's a little bit more, I think, creative and kind of a little bit more, we're going to figure it out and I hope you'll come along for the ride then trying to be what kind of corporate or capitalistic wellness.

Yeah, which I don't think we

[00:04:07] Nina Endrst: were trying to be that I think it's just hard to you get stuck in when yes. When you have other teachers too, and you become that type of brand, it it's a different, it's a different avenue. So this is a brand obviously, but it's Anna and I doing all of the content and having live gatherings once a month and doing an advice episode for you guys.

So it's just feels more, we're just really enjoying the podcast and it feels so light. And I mean, obviously we, we discussed very serious things here, but for me it just I'm about

[00:04:39] Anna Toonk: it. Yeah. Yeah. I think we found like when we were trying to grow, so it was like all the feedback we kept getting. We were like, We don't want to do that.

And even though we didn't want to be a kind of capitalistic corporate wellness, like it's kind of what the market is. And that's what we always sort of felt up against of like, how do we honor everyone? And it just kind of seems like the market isn't totally there yet. Who knows if that's been our experience, I should say that that was a bit our experience that we just felt a bit like for the energy we were putting in.

Like, it's not that we weren't like making money, but it's more that we just, we enjoy what we enjoy, what we're doing now more that's it, you know? Yeah. We talk a big game about encouraging people to do that, encouraging people to honor themselves, encouraging people, to give themselves their own permission, and guess what it came and said, Hey, bitches, y'all want to do that too.

And I

talk

[00:05:42] Nina Endrst: that wild walk that talk. So what are we talking

[00:05:46] Anna Toonk: about today? Does, so plan

[00:05:50] Nina Endrst: tried to record this last week. Last week was that last week and the internet was like, go fuck yourself. So we're back, we're back in. We're better. And I feel much more available for the conversation.

[00:06:04] Anna Toonk: Yeah. That it was, we would literally, we were being punked and we would literally get going and then body over drop out.

It was like, oh, just kidding. So. It was funny because I saw brains, man. I was gathering my dog. I got him, but I was gathering my notes and I was like, wait didn't we already do that.

And had to keep reminding my brain when it was like, I'm pretty sure you're doing this to keep being like, I understand brain. I appreciate it. And I remember it and it was like, oh yeah, I forgot that part. You know? Okay. So discipline now, the practice of training people to obey rules or code of behavior using punishment to correct disobedience the controlled behavior resulting from discipline, he was able to main discipline among his men activity or experience that provides mental or physical training.

A system of rules conduct. I branch of knowledge typically once studied in higher education. So then, because I think it's interesting that when we first talked about discipline, you were like, gross. Don't love it. You know, like you had more of a stronger reaction to the word and I hadn't really thought about it.

I think it just, cause I think about it more in the context of the activity or experience that provides mental or physical training, you know, like of course I think of training people, but I. More was just, I think, thinking of it the more maybe like academic definition. And then when I read that and was like, oh yeah, I get it.

That's why people have a strong reaction to the word. Like, not just you I've heard other people have a reaction to discipline, which makes sense, you know, since chill fine. And then I looked up, self-discipline the ability to control one's feelings and overcome one's weaknesses, the ability to pursue what one thinks is right, despite temptations to abandon it.

And both of those definitions are from our good friends at Oxford languages, which I don't know if Oxford has expanded and now is not just the Oxford dictionary, but is Oxford languages. But not as who

[00:08:41] Nina Endrst: you would like to Google that you are more than welcome.

[00:08:46] Anna Toonk: If you want to crack that mystery.

[00:08:50] Nina Endrst: I think my definition, I think to your point, I feel like I've expanded my, I was thinking about this yesterday, today.

I don't know. I have no concept of time right now, but how I've really learned, especially through this, but also working with you, how to be a little bit less stubborn in my approach to things. So when you throw a discipline at me initially, I want, I just want to kind of rebel and be like frack add now.

What the way I live, my life is actually quite disciplined. Yeah. It's hilarious.

[00:09:28] Anna Toonk: Thank you. You make it, you make, you made the joke for me that I'm like, I mean, I get, I get why, I mean, and that's like the joy of human beings of like, of course this person, you know, someone has a strong reaction to me while you're looking at them and going, like, they're one of the most disciplined people I know.

Like, how do you know, why did you hate the word initially? Because I feel like, why did you hate it? I didn't mean it accusatory.

[00:09:56] Nina Endrst: I'm ready to answer. I feel okay about that. You can, you can't offend me Ana we're past that point because I think I was, I felt like threatened by it when I was growing up and I still don't like how people use it with children in conversation with children.

Where it's about control and it's about, you know, punishment and it's about having power over another. That's one, obviously arm of it, but that's my initial reaction to the word. Although in the past couple of years, really, truly, I have turned myself around to the other possibility that it actually, and the other definition, which is, you know, studying something and really having kind of a structure for yourself.

That's very beneficial and healthy for me, whether that's, you know, exercise or work or whatever, I used to kind of be messy about it because I was so busy, kind of throwing my middle finger up to the man that I did. Realize how part of it could benefit me.

[00:11:12] Anna Toonk: I would wonder though, I feel like when do you feel like you became disciplined? Hmm.

[00:11:22] Nina Endrst: Oh yeah. Ye not. I mean, I would say pretty recently, like in the last, it depends on what I guess we're talking about, but even with work where I would work my ass off, I was, I wasn't disciplined. I was just addicted

[00:11:42] Anna Toonk: difference.

[00:11:44] Nina Endrst: And so when I, I think when we left Mexico, I honestly think in the last like five years when I was, when I became pregnant, when I became pregnant, when I became pregnant, When the seed started to grow from the semen in the egg,

[00:12:05] Anna Toonk: we've, we've been partners like over a year and I've told her that entire time. And I have said so many things that made her so uncomfortable. And finally, she got me

[00:12:19] Nina Endrst: sideswiped bitch. So when I, I think when I got pregnant, I something switched in me. And when we left Mexico, I knew I had to kind of put something in place for myself and it wasn't.

I wasn't at a punishment. It wasn't because I didn't think I was doing anything. Right. It just felt like the next phase for myself to really put parameters around things and to put my head down and focus and it, and I eliminated a lot of things, humans, you know, I like to do that and bullshit, just bullshit, really, you know, drinking as much as I drank when I lived in Mexico and lived on the fucking beach and we'd be like, what should we do?

I guess we'll have another glass of wine on the beach. So being more disciplined about my approach to work and my approach to exercise and my approach to everything really what happened, I would say in the last five years,

[00:13:17] Anna Toonk: that's interesting to me, if you met me

[00:13:20] Nina Endrst: five years ago, I think you would, I was completely different in a lot of ways.

[00:13:24] Anna Toonk: Yeah. I wonder how much of that is just, I mean, this is a topic for a different episode, but just like. People will evolve, you know, like sometimes it's like, did you really change? Or just like, did you evolve? Or is it both? You know what I mean?

[00:13:41] Nina Endrst: I think you're absolutely right. I don't think I've changed a lot.

I think I've evolved because that's, I just, I guess I shy away from using that word because it's just a little bit more they, but,

[00:13:51] Anna Toonk: but it's the. Yeah, I find it. I wonder in some ways too, like I think something, when I was thinking and preparing for this episode is I was like, no, I'm not disciplined at all.

And then was like, you're actually very disciplined, like in different areas. And it made me think about too, how much discipline starts happening. I feel like in these sort of micro ways, like I am, like, I remember when I decided to start making my bed. And you might think that's a story from childhood surprise.

It's not, you know, like I never made my bed until a couple of years ago. And I was just like, and I remember when I hit a year of making my bed and was like, is this might be the dumbest thing ever, but I'm like proud of myself. I was like, I didn't, you know, Um, I, I think I just kind of vaguely remembered it or something.

Like, I forget

[00:14:50] Nina Endrst: you had a ritual and you had a full on sacred

[00:14:53] Anna Toonk: ceremony and we ate a cake in bed. Um, but, and when I started also. Uh, like when I first went self-employed I talked about this a bit in our advice episode, but like I went party times, you know, I just was like, I could stay up as late as I want.

I can wake up whenever I want, I set my schedule and it was a complete reaction to like, you know, feeling free. And then I was like, I don't feel good. You know, it was just like the have party too hard. And I wasn't even like really partying, but it was just, it was really fear-based like, am I going to be okay?

You know? And it was like, let me do all these events and do this and go to this networking stuff. And I had sort of shifted to a night owl schedule and I then was like, It makes it really hard to like, feel like a person and create any structure or order. And I was like, I need to start going to bed earlier and waking up.

But at the same time, you know, like I, I need to create, create that. And that was another thing that, I mean, I'm someone who's also had insomnia on and off like my whole life. So changing my sleep schedule is, tends to be a thing, but I kept with it and was like, these are the like extenuating circumstances, you know, barring, extenuating circumstances.

Like I go to bed at this time and I wake up at this time, you know, and that took me like a year as well to like really get down. And I would be like, am I really a woman? In her late thirties, like learning how to go to bed blank. But so be it, I feel like whenever I'm creating discipline around something, if it's not maybe creative, if it's just life or human being, or I don't know, adulting in some way, it makes me so self-conscious, it makes me really look like I didn't have it, you know, but I'm surprised

[00:17:04] Nina Endrst: that that makes you self-conscious because you're so, I mean, ain't this just the way the cookie crumbles, but you're so great at giving that to other people and the permission to be like, yeah, guys, it's like, it's okay.

Just sometimes we figure it out at this time. Sometimes we figure it out a little bit later. Most of the work we do. It's back to basics, correct? Yeah.

[00:17:29] Anna Toonk: Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of adulthood is like, oh wait,

[00:17:33] Nina Endrst: they should really take it back. Yeah. I mean, even, you know, something like simplifying our business, like it's just, this stuff matters and it's not easy.

And it's also, I think, I shouldn't say it's not easy. It's not necessarily taught and it's not necessarily celebrated and it's not sexy. Yeah, so it gets lost.

[00:17:59] Anna Toonk: Yeah, it's true. And I think also to your point like that it's not taught, you know, I think a lot of discipline is either is either negative, you know, like do this, or like a big threat in my house was like, like, you know, or I'm going to tell your dad when he gets home, you know?

And it was like

[00:18:19] Nina Endrst: fascinated by people that did, that you had that happen to you. I did, yeah. What would happen if your dad came home? Speaking of the other discipline? And I

[00:18:28] Anna Toonk: think I found out it was like, he's going to be mad and both my parents had temper, so it was kind of like, oh, so the other one's going to be mad, you know, and a little bit of a vague spanking threat, but I don't really, I was spanked a few times growing up, but like there wasn't a lot of that, but I think it was the sort of implied threat, you know, my parents weren't great at follow through to be honest.

So it was also a kind of, I mean, My mom kind of wonder is why we were a bit, like, I don't know that we were wild, but a little bit, you know, and it's like, well, we didn't really have any discipline. You know, like we, there wasn't really any, it was like, I might be grounded or like no phone or something, but usually we could wear my mom down.

We could break her spirit, you know, and just be like, like, please give the phone back, please going to have the phone back. And she would be like, finally, she goes, okay. Or should we be like, if you do this or whatever, there wasn't consistency. And I do think. I mean, I, I have some friends that like, don't discipline their kids whatsoever.

And I don't know if that it, like I get on the one hand that's really loving, but on the other, I'm like, that's also not life. Like I have a friend who like, is one of those, like, I don't tell my child, no, like one of those and guess what are kids not fun to be around link? That's all I can say that I don't think

[00:19:56] Nina Endrst: about that as discipline.

Like those are boundaries.

[00:20:03] Anna Toonk: Well, I think, I guess like discipline to me falls also, like if you're thinking about it kind of in the negative connotation of like, it's a way you're trying to concrete obedience, like, I think that discipline falls into like consequences, you know? And like, rather than punishment, I think of it more as like consequences.

Like if you don't brush your teeth, you get cavities, you know, it's like that. I think most parents are trying to like, cultivate, like cultivate, like cultivate these larger disciplines in smaller disciplines, you know, of like habits and stuff like that. But like, how do we do that in a way, you know, that is like, how do you do that?

When a kid doesn't care, you know, it's like, so I'll get cavities, you know, like fun, you know, and how do we do it in a way that's not. Like punishing or, or violent or, you know, like it doesn't, there seems to be a real middle ground. We're not exploring a ton.

[00:21:09] Nina Endrst: I say no, I mean, I don't discipline Milo, like really at all, but I do say I T does know like consequences. So I guess I, you know, he has an awareness of what is appropriate and what's not as far as just, you know, behaving like a decent human being in the world. And interestingly enough, we, we went out last yesterday for the first time in two years to.

Yeah, we went at five o'clock, which by the way, huge fan of nobody wants to eat at five o'clock, except for us thrilled about it. See, no one had the whole place to ourselves like tickled

[00:21:51] Anna Toonk: good news. No one cares about that five.

[00:21:55] Nina Endrst: It's me, my husband and our four year olds. So we went, I'm not kidding you. I think it was the best interview I've ever had.

Like in my life, Milo sat down, he is four. He has not left the house in that capacity in two years. So he was two last time we went out and he sat down and he literally was like, we've never done this before. And I was like, well, we have, but you were really little, he ate every single. He was interacting with the, with the wait staff.

He was. Please and thank you. He was like, this is, oh, I like the oyster mushrooms. Oh, I like the, the Crudo. I mean, it was like Wayne and I were looking at each other the whole time, like, are we geniuses? And we was like, we should write a book. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You have to keep it humble because the minute you think you get, you get on your high horse, then something will surely knock you down.

But I do think that because he has a lot of freedom and because he, we speak to him, you know, not like an adult, but we give him, we talked to him, you know, he's our best friend. Yeah. That to watch him enjoy something like that and not be scared. What might happen if he, that didn't even cross his mind? You know, he just, yeah.

Was well behaved, which I don't really like to say that, but, you know, we all have to be well-behaved when we go to restaurants, myself included. So for me, I was, I don't know, I wasn't scared of my parents at all, at all, at all at all, but I also felt a deep need to get attention that I needed. And I didn't know how to express that.

So I would act out a lot, a lot, so that I guess I would be disciplined or I would hope to be disciplined. And just to like, get a little bit of information or, Hey guys, I'm here. I need, I need, I needed that care. I needed more like of, um, kind of like a masculine grounding force. I wasn't looking to be punished.

I was just looking for a little bit more, I think.

[00:24:07] Anna Toonk: I mean, maybe even guidance, that's the word? You know, like I feel like, I mean, Milo's definitely well behaved, like he's for sure. Well behaved and I think people can be really weird about like the behavior of children and act as if it isn't directly related to the parents, you know, like, which is a crock of shit by the way.

And my kids are also they're little people. Like, you don't know what they're going to do, but if Milo did something let's, you know, I don't know, like if he. It's funny because I was like, if he like dumped paint on the floor and you were lying, why'd you do that? You know, would you just like have him clean it?

No. Would you be like, well, no, you have to help me or, but no, if he did, if you knew he did it being a jerk, we know he wouldn't because he hates being dirty. No,

[00:24:58] Nina Endrst: he had, we went into today and he had a separate bowl to wash his hands.

[00:25:06] Anna Toonk: So

[00:25:08] Nina Endrst: it was literally something as sweet. I'm like, hi, you just have a little tiny paint on your hand. It's not even on your feet. If he did something to hurt my feelings or to, you know, get negative attention. Yeah.

[00:25:21] Anna Toonk: Deliberately naughty.

[00:25:22] Nina Endrst: Yeah. I would really encourage him to help me clean up the mess. Yes, I wouldn't.

Yeah.

[00:25:31] Anna Toonk: But I think that that would be like a cool way of like emotionally informed, discipline agree with being like, that makes this harder for mommy. Like, can you help me? Like, oh, you know, like he held that type of thing.

[00:25:43] Nina Endrst: Yeah. That's important. I mean, his playroom, like, you know, way. And I talk all the time, like, it's, it's not fair.

Like, mommy doesn't have to clean up. I shouldn't have to clean up everything by herself. Like let's all help together. So that's how we teach him, you know, those kinds of things, because I don't want him growing up thinking that like women fucking walk behind you and pick up your shit. Yeah. Like, no, And seeing his dad bring me coffee every morning and, you know, cook for us.

That's also really helpful in terms of like, you know, gender roles and knocking those on their asses, which I'm thrilled to do. But as far as discipline goes, how do you think we succeed and fail on a societal level teaching and

[00:26:30] Anna Toonk: oh yeah. I think like, because a lot of discipline is bullshit, to be honest, like there's so little follow through.

So I think kind of like the way I grew up as what plays out, sort of in a larger sense of like, I mean, I mean, this is a bummer topic, but look at what happened, you know, I was listening to this podcast. That's like, kind of like, it's very good. It's about a woman, a trigger warning. She was sexually assaulted.

And the experience she has, this takes place in Canada and the experience she has with the government and stuff. It's CBC uncover and it's Kerry low versus, and her experience is just insane. The way the investigation is compromised and like all these sort of things. And this woman, who's an advocate for survivors of sexual assault is like this state is essentially saying that they don't care or view this as a crime because of how low the conviction rates.

And that's something, I think about a lot in terms of like, I would love, like I'm pretty pro abolition and things like that, but I, and I'm speaking in terms of like American culture, but I also think like there has to be like, I feel like there's always these threats, like do it or something bad will happen, you know?

Like do well in school or like you won't get into a good college. Okay. Well, what happens if I don't get into a good college? Like, I feel like these things are like the answers never given. So like the discipline sort of an illusion. And I wish that, and then on the other side, and the more kind of like capitalistic lens, we have all these people who think that you can like buy a taro deck.

And now you're a taro reader and don't have to apply any kind of like discipline and, and I mean, and they want to start charging people, sorry. They want to be professional readers literally will have just bought a dock or take like a weekend course. And they're like, I'm a reader now. And it's like, where's the sense of discipline there?

You know, that, I think we have this real disconnect of like, there's this huge discipline of like, there are still people incarcerated for weed charges in New York, which it's now been decriminalized and no one should be, no one should be in prison for weed. Like w one I think in general or for like non-violent crimes.

But then on the other hand, what are we doing? How are we like, I don't think we should live in a society that. Without punishment. I do think punishment teaches us things, but how do we find a way that it actually works? You know, like I'm very interested in like repairative justice and things like that.

And like, it kinda gives me hope for our society of what a lot of these people are doing in terms of connecting, like, you know, victims and perpetrators and having them have like these mediated sessions and stuff like that. It's like, okay, like maybe something different is possible. God, I hope so.

[00:29:35] Nina Endrst: Because the prison system, ain't

[00:29:37] Anna Toonk: it, it is not it.

And especially the private prison system. Fuck that. That is fuck that. Oh fuck that it is exploitive labor. Okay. So you stole a car, not great. You should probably be punished. I agree with that. Should you be locked somewhere and treated like you're subhuman and then expected to reenter society and thrive?

Like that's essentially what we're saying that doesn't seem to be working. Yeah. Well,

[00:30:02] Nina Endrst: especially when so many people who are in prison, I mean, I would love to know the statistics as far as, you know, clearly there are more black people in prison than white people and it's designed that way. Absolutely.

And so I, you know, I was listening to my forever. Love Tupac the other day as I was driving home. And I was like, how fucking sad that this song is from 1996. And it is

[00:30:31] Anna Toonk: so appropriate

[00:30:33] Nina Endrst: for today. Like literally all the same shit, which I I've decided that apparently they'll just never be peace. And I'm not saying that we give up, but I'm trying to find, I'm trying to find kind of hope in the hopeless and like, how can I do something in a really backwards upside down world?

I mean, now we're back, there's a war happening and who, God knows what's going to happen with that. But from prisons to bores, to dictators, it's just not, we just keep repeating our mistakes over and over and over and over again. So clearly something has to change. To your point, having people actually be in conversation about, I mean, there are obviously instances where you can't really have like sociopaths and psychopaths.

Yeah. Sit down with, you know, victim's families

[00:31:36] Anna Toonk: and such, but well, and there's a tremendous amount of vetting they do to be, I mean, I grossly oversimplified the process, but like there's a whole system, you sort of enter if you're open to going down that. But I think that that's got

[00:31:50] Nina Endrst: to be what's our other option, just continue doing the same thing.

And the same people thrive and the same people die in the same people get locked up and the same, it's just those, the families who are currently, you know, in these types of. Situations have likely been in them for generations.

[00:32:22] Anna Toonk: yeah, I was just as to say that it's, I mean, if you look at the statistics, like, I mean, it is basically, but you basically are creating like a generational curse, you know, like, well, poverty is well is, is like, you know, a generational curse. And the sense of it is designed to, I mean like America does not want the poor to be not poor.

It's like, no, we like you there. Or I should say it should say white America is not trying to elevate people out of poverty. And I do think that. Like, if you think of discipline in terms of knowledge, you know, and cultivating knowledge in terms of, you know, higher knowledge and things like that. I do think it would be really helpful if lots of people had more access to that.

You know, like I had friends who went into the army in order to afford college and then went to Iraq, you know, like that's insane to me. They didn't want to be in the army, but they didn't want to have crazy student debt. It was their pathway to that higher education. And I admire the discipline to go through, like, you know, one of my friends was an army ranger.

Like it took incredible sacrifice and discipline and he got shot in Iraq for it. And he's alive. He's arrived, but, um, I'm just like, that's insane to me that is insane. And then insane. We're supposedly one of the top countries in the world, you know, you'll hear all these like mega people being like USA.

And it's like, not so much. There's tons of other countries that are leading in terms of higher education and things like that. And just social services, you know, like essentially what we're saying is like, where's this framework for social services so that people don't get forgotten.

[00:34:11] Nina Endrst: Walk me through manga people that are not listening, but please don't walk me through it.

Like, what the fuck do you have so much pride in

[00:34:21] Anna Toonk: my a hundred percent green, but also they are the tackiest people. So we might be like, maybe they see splendor. We don't we're like, they're like,

[00:34:35] Nina Endrst: I mean, I live in a place that's like Brooklyn, and then it's like the deep south. It's so confusing to me. And I've never been around people like this in my whole life I ever I've truly haven't I'm like you have American flags, like for fucking fun and just your go Brandon signs and your, and I'm not even trying to sound like an angry asshole.

I'm just like, go Merck. Like really like this shit is not going well.

[00:35:07] Anna Toonk: I don't understand patriotism in general. I laughed at my cousin when she started, we were at the laser show at stone mountain. Yes. I only go to the most fancy cultural experiences and events even know what that

[00:35:21] Nina Endrst: means.

[00:35:23] Anna Toonk: Oh, you just watch a lot of lasers on stone mountain that has, you know, is like a little mini Mount Rushmore.

So my cousin starts crying too. I'm proud to be an American and I think she's joking. And I was like, ha ha. And then she's like, what aren't you proud of our country? And I was like, no,

[00:35:43] Nina Endrst: I don't relate it to somebody who cried during God bless America.

[00:35:47] Anna Toonk: Oh yeah. That's like, that is the rest. That is pretty much everyone outside of like my mom and brother.

They are those people. My aunt is probably at a prayer circle right now. Like, Ooh. Yeah. And I. I think this idea as well of like Christian values and all these things. Like there's a difference to me between like discipline, which often has it's to me a form of study it's like studying something, repeating it to like, to, to be good at it.

That was sort of my definition. Yeah. A master it before, you know, knowing what it really meant. And it's just like, Insane to me, if you think about it with some of these, like it's cultivating something to me versus blind obedience. And I think a lot of the maggot people, which like, what's crazy about Trump supporters and Magda people, a lot of them are poor.

A lot of them fall below the poverty line within the U S and they kind of fell for his direct manipulation of them kind of like fully like you're right. They fully fail. I mean, but I'm like, that is also, what's crazy to me of like, how do you keep this blind faith, this blind, when. Your situation, if you're a, and I have the listen, I don't think any job is better than another.

I don't think getting person is better than another. I don't think having more money makes you a better person, but how are you someone who really is struggling and working to survive? You know, maybe you're a mechanic or something and you work hard every day. Often it's like kind of a physical labor.

How are you looking at and listening to, I guess, the Republican rhetoric and then looking at your life and being like, yes, it is better. Like, I don't see how it possibly improved. Well, I think,

[00:37:44] Nina Endrst: I think I have an idea, which is we train people to be obedient. Like it starts so early where I really, I mean, I'm not like in any way a conspiracy theorist, but I do think that these people who have.

And some of them have incredible education. Right? I mean, I was just reading an article about Kennedy, which one is it? Robert there's so fucking many of them. Oh my God. Anti-vax wax data, Cheryl, Cheryl, but she's got to get out of that thing because you ate

[00:38:18] Anna Toonk: or drank. Like, I don't

[00:38:21] Nina Endrst: know. She tweeted and was like, my husband's views do not reflect my own after he mentioned Anne Frank in a fucking speech about anti-vax bullshit.

Yeah, sure guys. But it's, it's fascinating to me. And also incredibly depressing that like, you kind of have these two very different groups of people, right? Super. Elite, very educated, wealthy followers of this. And then you have the kind of like downtrodden, you know, people who like re like are living in maybe not all trailer parks, but I'm just saying like, when I drive by that trailer park around here and I see Trump signs, I'm like, really, what is, what is a millionaire who doesn't pay his taxes doing for you?

But I think that what they have in common is just this to your point, blind obedience, and just this kind of, how are we easily brainwashed? Like how do we have so little critical thinking as individuals that we can't step back and say, Hmm, maybe that's not quite right. Something seems fishy

[00:39:35] Anna Toonk: here. Yeah. I mean, we want things to be.

Easier than they are, you know, it's also why we love labels. And we want to know like, are you gay or straight? Are you this or that? You know, it's, it's a shortcut. And it's also the way in which we can be manipulated, you know? And that's a big thing we've seen in the us, like create this divide, create this binary of you.

You're either, you know, you're this or you're that. And I would think if anything, like the Trump's four years, really, really like I was already thinking about binaries, thanks to, you know, all of our non-binary and trans friends. I was starting to think more and more about just like how binaries do limit us.

And I'm not a big fan of like black and white thinking. And that was something I had to really work on to accept the gray in life. And. Then Trump really made me see that, you know, and see, like, everyone's just sort of saying you're bad. No, you're bad. And it's like, well, if we're both bad, then like, what's good.

You know, like I just feel like in the U S it's like, especially the same argument over and over again, versus any true progress.

[00:40:56] Nina Endrst: I know. And it's hard because I par participate in that. You know, I, I don't associate with people who have those views and I don't associate with people who are anti-vax and I don't like, I just don't.

And sometimes I ask myself, like, what would I do if my family member was. A

[00:41:15] Anna Toonk: Trump

[00:41:15] Nina Endrst: supporter. I don't ha I don't have to face that. Right. My parents are those liberals, which is kind of annoying because we're the problem too, especially

[00:41:26] Anna Toonk: because you're a different problem.

[00:41:27] Nina Endrst: We're a different problem, but it's, I get it.

Like, I was just speaking to one of the smartest people I think I've ever met. She's I just find her endlessly fascinating. She's a photographer for national geographic and she's just super, super brilliant. And she was saying that, you know, her and her father like have very different political views and she loves him very much, but basically like, she essentially, he, I don't think he voted for Trump, but like, to that kind of down that road.

And I was just like, wow. I mean, How do you do that? How do you have a conversation with somebody who you love and you believe is good, but then is saying they're against everything that you are, or the, and the person that she loves is, and it just, I don't know how you reconcile that with, and I don't want to be black and white either, but I don't know.

I just, how does that work?

[00:42:39] Anna Toonk: I think some, I mean, I think it's like this larger playout we're seeing of, how do you love people who are flawed? How do you love people when they're doing something you disagree with? You know, it w it to me in a lot of ways, it's no different than if they were an addict, you know, like. You can love that person and still, really not like that aspect, you know?

And I think that things got so heightened in this country that we forgot about that. And so a lot of us too, had the privilege. It's a huge privilege as well to say, like, I'm not going to interact with people like that. You know, like we have the privilege of being like, I'm not dealing with anti-vaxxers, you know, we get to control our.

Business lives are like our personal life. Like we don't have fallout from that, or I, I don't, can't think of any, you know, like it hasn't come up for me, but I think when it comes to family, like it's also a privilege if you've mostly been aligned in ideology and I've all my mom's. Always raised. Like my mom was always a bit the black sheep of being the liberal person in her family.

And so we've always been kind of the liberals, you know, like we've always been kind of outside that structure. It's not new to me. And I remember like during nine 11, like I was in New York and going home to Georgia and they're like, well, you're going to move back home now. Right. And like, weren't you scared?

And they were like buying more guns. And they were like, well, they might come for the, you know, they were like, they might come for us next. I was like, what for world of Coke? Like, why is anyone like what? And they're like, well, we have the CDC. I'm like once again for what? Like, like they're coming for Walmart.

And as much as I don't want to be like Marianne fucking Williamson barf and being like the opposite of love is fear. Everything is either fear or love. It also did make me see how scared. You know that it wasn't just like rampant racism. And just like, I don't even know, like, you know, like militia type shit.

They were, they were literally scared, you know? And I think that America's been so without like, you know, I, I grew up mostly in, in Europe. I grew up in England, specifically. I was friends with people from all over the world that was, you know, like I'm not, this isn't a flex, it's a context. And I had a ton of friends who were.

You know, I have a ton of friends who are Israeli and they have to serve in the military. Like, I don't think that's great either, but I think being forced to do stuff is like also not always the worst. I do think it builds some character. Like I do think learning, like we can have opposing views, but how do we like meet one another?

Like some of that stuff isn't bad. I don't know about you, but the citizen response of the Ukraine is fucking me up in the, like the damn bravery of these people. The, I was watching something that was happening at the border, a dog rescue that I really love that's in Romania, w they were, they were helping, they were meeting women and children and people with dogs, they were helping.

And the line was going both ways of people trying to get into Romania and Ukrainian men trying to go back to fight Jesus Christ. And I was just like, I mean, imagine the situation here. And it would be so many, I think people who were probably disadvantaged who would maybe have that courage, you know, and a lot of privileged people being like, you know, like try to catch me in Canada, you know, like, Ooh, and I just not I'm in Paul.

That's what, that's what the U S and like, manga people want to think they have so badly this like pride and appreciation and commitment, and like all these things. But there a joke, you know, like they D they just kind of want to flex and buy their guns or whatever, but like, if we were under attack, would they show up?

No, not they would all be in there fucking like bunker she's

[00:47:02] Nina Endrst: at with their cup of noodles, but

[00:47:06] Anna Toonk: merge very bloated.

[00:47:11] Nina Endrst: And that's the problem with too much sodium, you know, but I think it's, so I did not expect the conversation to go here, but it, like, we do lack discipline in that way as a culture where if we were more, I think, focused as individuals in terms of taking care of ourselves and being disciplined about that, then we would have, and I mean, again, I understand that that can be put into.

Uh, blends of privilege, where there some more time for some people and resources and money, like, absolutely. But if that was the, the goal to create more well-being for individuals, or, you know, even like with a lot of these countries, faith is such a big part of why they are the way they are, you know, like faith in something.

It doesn't have to be necessarily God, but it's just in community, in each other, in something. And I think that that requires discipline to keep coming back to something, to keep studying something, to keep, you know, focusing on something for yourself, but also. The people around you is like, I'm, I'm going to help somebody.

If I see someone hurting because I take care of myself because I yeah. Am disciplined about that. So I have the capacity to do so, but a lot of people who don't give a fuck when you're, you know, lying on the street, which a lot of people don't, I want to care. I want to have a lot more pride in like new Yorkers, but I have zero faith that if I were in trouble, because I've been in that situation that like multiple people would help me.

Like, I just don't think it would happen because everybody's so in their

[00:48:56] Anna Toonk: own fucking world. Yeah. It's weird because I was here for nine 11. I was here for the blackout and those were really. Incredible in terms of, I mean, actually, no, they were bad, but the new Yorkers coming together was incredible and it seems like we're good about big stuff and like, so, so on little stuff, but like anybody I know who's lived here though, a long time has done something for a stranger, you know, like, I don't think, I know, you know, someone has seen, you know, a girl super drunk and like walked her home or seen some, like, I've heard so many of those stories.

And I think, I think so often with American culture, like, we're just so fucking spoiled, you know, like with the choices we get to make with the freedoms we have and stuff like that, that I'm like, really, you can't divert your attention from your phone or be a couple minutes late to work because you see someone in distress, like, come on.

What is the point of anything? Well, I kind of think that's

[00:49:57] Nina Endrst: more. No, totally. And I think it's more like

[00:50:00] Anna Toonk: value people. Like what is. What is the point? Like I come back to that, like I come back over and over and someone with tremendous privilege. Like I'm not, I, I try to stay really connected to like, if we're not all free, then no one's free.

Like I really try to stay connected to that and think it's, I would say I almost have a discipline related to that of like coming back to it over and over and over again and being like, can I give more, can I be more aware? What do I need to like, you know, take divest from what do I need to check myself on?

What do I need to, you know, because I essentially really care about humanity and I really, you know, and I get frustrated. There's definitely times that I'm like, you know, this is okay. Like, this is sort of silly, but I also am a little bit superstitious and. This is something I've thought about a lot. So I got trained and I would recommend everybody do this because the opioid crisis is just, I know I've brought it up a couple of times, but the opioid crisis is the leading cause of death, especially in men under the age of 50, it, people are ODing on fentanyl all the time.

And because drug use is so stigmatized, it's not really discussed. And it's not just people who are using opioids. Fentanyl is being put in. Any and all drugs. So if you're someone who uses drugs, definitely check them. And I would say everybody get trained in Narcan. Naloxone is a medicine that is, you can get it free from the pharmacy, but it will, it saves people's lives.

And so I, you know, I, I believe in harm reduction, but do you believe, you know, we've seen countless countries like both in Portugal and in Amsterdam where, um, Amsterdam is not a country, but the Netherlands where they decriminalized drugs and they saw their rates improve. And part of the reason mash Massachusetts was one of the first states to legalize cannabis in the U S is because of the opioid crisis.

They found that they could get people off opioids in transfer them to weed, which I think is amazing. And

[00:52:25] Nina Endrst: it's really high there. The re I mean, oh,

[00:52:27] Anna Toonk: there's like a whole generation lost in Cape Cod. Sane really fast. So I was interested in this, I saw this place and granted, did I have a crush on the guy who owned the gallery that was running the training?

Yeah. But you also humanity, but I also care about humanity. She got to get it too. I mean, I'm a multi-tasker so I got trained, you know, and I carry it on me and thank God I haven't had, you know, to use it. But then it did save someone's life in my life. And I felt like, you know, was that person's life saved because I got trained, of course not.

But did I feel, do I feel sometimes like doing acts of service or trying to cultivate, like these things, like. I mean, maybe it's a loose form of like paying it forward. You know what I mean? Or like, I don't know. Sometimes like also too, when I fuck up like, um, a friend recently was telling me she's like, forgot to feed her neighbor's cat.

It was only for a day. It was just a couple of hours at first I misunderstood, but she had it for a weekend off and I was like, no, she was fine. So she, she was like, no, I just felt bad. It was supposed to be fed this morning. She must have been starving. And I was like, it's, it's an animal. They have no sense of time.

It's fine. As long as you find them, they're fine. You know, but I was like, make a donation to a cat rescue and say, sorry to the cat gods. Like, I kind of believe in that stuff. And I think it's like, It's like some of those things that you can cultivate for yourself, some of those disciplines, like I think discipline always gets talked about in terms of school and exercise, you know, are you self-disciplined, do you have willpower?

Like those sorts of things, but there's like this whole other area of your life that you could try to cultivate a little bit of, you know, mastery that can feel really good and benefit other people.

[00:54:24] Nina Endrst: Oh my God, you're speaking my language. And it's so true. I mean, the more I don't like to think about every time I, you know, make a donation or whatever, I try to be very diligent about not like patting myself on the back because it's just part of, I think the human tax I'm like, this is what as a privileged person, this is what I feel like I owe.

And I don't think it's, I don't think it's charity. I think it's just something that I. Oh, another human and I want to help other people. And it's very, you know, it's, I wish it was like millions. It's obviously not, but anytime I see something that strikes me and Anna is so good about this. I know it. I remember once she told me about a woman or I'm sorry, a person, I don't think she identifies as a woman, but maybe she does anyway.

They like couldn't pay their rent. And Anna, you know, sent them like a couple hundred dollars and I was just like, who ever you are? I want to be was when we first met, you told me this story and I, and it was not a flex. It was just in conversation. And that's the kind of people, those are the kinds of people I want to be around people that care.

And I, and I, I know I have a pessimistic view about. Human sometimes. And I do know that especially new Yorkers are come together and as they did on nine 11 and I wasn't there on the blackout, but was, I, I don't think so. No, I would have remembered,

[00:55:53] Anna Toonk: but I think he was still in college. Oh yeah. Cause I was pretty young.

Yeah. So I think you're still in school,

[00:55:59] Nina Endrst: but I do believe in that in general, you know, I believe I never want to give up if I didn't think humans were capable of more really, you know, could do more for each other. I wouldn't be doing this. Right. But it's just so disappointing sometimes to watch it unfolds.

And then my faith has restored, but it's like, why is there have to be a war and innocent people dying for me to feel like people give a shit about humans. Yeah.

[00:56:30] Anna Toonk: Yeah, I agree. I don't feel like we need the extremes, but something that I think cultivating discipline, self or other takes is the removal of ego.

And we're not big fans of that. You know, that if you generally want to get good at something, you have to get through not being good at it first and continue to do it over and over and over and over and over again, you know? And I think a lot of people in terms of off, like taking care of others or donating or showing up for them, I think a lot of people feel really self-conscious and feel like they're going to get it wrong so they don't do it.

And I think if you can kind of realize, like, it will be clunky, you will get it wrong. You might offend some people and you'll survive and it'll be fine, but you can also, like, I do really believe that. It all adds up that like, if you maybe start like giving a little bit more showing a little bit more care than like your acquaintances and friends might notice that, you know, like I do think it, it tends to build there's a domino.

Yeah, I do. Yeah. I do think that, and I think it also builds up like some of the boundary, like, like you were saying, you know, about like the family members and things like that. You know, like if, if with the opposing views, like it gets, I think some of that, like I also feel secure in what I'm doing to make the world better.

Like, not that it undo, undoes the harm of others on dues, but it's not undoing what my uncle does or whatever, but it does make me feel more empowered to set up the boundary and be like, Hey, these are the ways I'm trying to make this world better. And you have kids. So this is how I'm contributing to the world to make it better.

What are you doing? What is your candidate like? Or you saying, fuck your kids, you don't care what world they get, you know? And then he's kinda like, whoa. And I'm like, yes, let's, let's do it. Come on. Let's talk. You know, I do think sometimes that can be held. I agree

[00:58:38] Nina Endrst: and whatever it is that you're, you know, trying to be disciplined about, like, let it be joyful, let it bring you some peace and some joy, it doesn't have to be painful.

Helping someone else makes me feel the best, you know, or, and also taking care of myself. Like those are and creating time. I like to feel like my, whatever. I'm disciplined about my structure. My schedule somehow like gives me time because it does,

it

[00:59:11] Nina Endrst: does. Yeah. And then I feel like more available for the things I care about and the things I want to, to study and the things I want to know about.

And yeah, and again, and, uh, we try to be very clear about that. Like, we're very aware of the privilege that we hold, just doing something. Worthwhile with that is I think all we can

[00:59:33] Anna Toonk: do. Yeah. Trying something like that, working

[00:59:37] Nina Endrst: on it. Okay. 1 0 1 0 1. So guys, thanks for joining us. We'll be back next week. I don't know what we're talking about.

We're not going to tell you off hand. Whoops. Thanks for listening.

That's all for today's episode.

[01:00:02] Anna Toonk: If you're interested in submitting a topic or want to submit a question for her advice episode, please join our membership community@howtobehumanpod.com. Thanks for listening. And remember we're guides, not gurus.