Hello and welcome to this bonus episode of America A History Recorded straight after our recently published episode, what Do Christmas Films Tell Us About America? I'm joined now by the guest from that episode, Dr. Vaughan Joy, to discuss this a little bit more. Hello, Vaughn.

Hello.

And I'm really having up the use of Dr. There because I feel like that's due. You've spent years researching Christmas films. So let's celebrate that.

I appreciate that. Thank you. You can call me Doctor as much as you want.

I genuinely, I feel like you are the most qualified person I'm ever going to get on the podcast to talk about Christmas movies.

Probably. That's fair. I'll take that one.

So I wanted to just keep you around for a few minutes to talk, not so much about anything academic. And for anyone who hasn't yet heard our full discussion, go and check that out. It's on the feed right now. I just want to find out personally what your favorite Christmas films are.

I saw many. I was warned before my PhD to never study films I love. And then I spent five and a half years studying Christmas films, which I deeply love. And I'm still like, no, it's a Wonderful Life is a wonderful film. I love that movie. White Christmas. I love that movie. I can think about them critically and I can rip them apart and see the less savory sides of them, I guess, but I still love them. I think they're wonderful, engaging, sentimental films. One of my top tier, most favorite Christmas films of all time, though, is a very modern one. It's from 2019, Klaus. It's on Netflix. Yes, it's a perfect film. If you have not seen it, I highly, highly recommend it. It's by Sergio Pablos. It was his passion project. He's an animator who'd worked for a number of animation companies, Disney, DreamWorks, et cetera. And he kept this film in his back pocket as his passion project for 15 years. He was working on it. It is completely hand drawn, which, when you see it, you cannot tell that this is a hand drawn film because it is so stunning and smooth. Oh, my God, it's gorgeous. And what he does with it is invent a Santa Claus myth that if you listen to the full episode that Liam and I just recorded, we talked about the kind of, like, melding of cultures and the building of national American mythologies around Christmas. And what Sergio Pablos does is use the Sami people, their language and their traditions to build a new mythology of Christmas that melds American ideas, the Sami people's ideas, European ideas, of Christmas into this just absolutely gorgeous story with a beautiful message and a phenomenal cast. It's. Oh. Oh, it's so good. Highly, highly recommend.

Yeah, no, I'm. I'm with you on that. Klaus is a wonderful film. My. My daughter isn't that sold on it yet, but she's only two. We have played it to her. And I got to admit, your point on the animation. Completely agree with. Because she is transfixed with. The animation is gorgeous. So, yeah, it's. It's a great film. One of my favorites. And what I re. Watched, actually, just the. The night before we. We recorded this episode, National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation. And definitely harks back to what you were saying about things maybe not being quite so relevant nowadays, but because, yeah, there are some very questionable things in that film, but I just. I love the silliness and just how, like, farcical it is. And it's just a wonderful, like, family Christmas film to me. But Miracle on 34th street will always be, like, what? Right out there. As, like, one of my absolute favorites. And I think it's just because it has such a pure message about Santa Claus, which, even as an adult, I am just, like, it gets me every time.

Fair enough. Which version?

The 1993 version. And I think that's because I was about. I was about 10 years old or so when I first saw it. That was a couple of years after it was released. So there's something in there that's just sort of stayed with me. But there were. There were, like, parts of films that just really stick with you. And for me, it was the montage in that. In that film of, like, Aretha Franklin's, like, joyful, joyful playing in the background. Everyone's picking up the stickers saying, I believe in Santa Claus. I don't know why, but that just. That gets me.

Fair enough that I have seen the 47 version way more times because I studied it. But I find it so fascinating how different those two films are, how they have the same setup, largely, but they're vastly different films with, like, they still end on the message of what belief is and what faith is, and a sweet message on Santa Claus. But how they get there says so much about the American again, the American political and cultural moments of 47. And I think it was released in the states in 94. But that kind of mid-90s moment. Fascinating differences between those films.

Yeah, I think that's a really interesting point, is just being able to compare two different versions of the same film and made about 50 years apart. And no other Christmas film comes to mind where you could really compare that maybe. I mean, there's been several iterations of the Grinch, so maybe that.

But the Preacher's Wife in 1996.

Yes.

Is a remake of the Bishop's Wife from 47. So the mid-90s had a real nostalgia moment for the 1940s Christmas films.

Yeah.

Which is very interesting to think about. The kind of like post Cold War vision of those, like immediate post war kind of films.

Yeah. I wonder if there was like something in that with like. So I. Maybe America kind of being a few years off, but still not, not too far off the back of like Vietnam and a lot of things happening around sort of the Middle East. Like there was, there was a lot of like, conflicts. Maybe there was just something in that that sort of made films like, that sort of resonate again and that's why they got remade.

Yeah. I'd have to think about it more because a lot of 90s Christmas films elsewhere have called it everything but the Kitchen Sink. That decade where you have home video, you have like Disney is able to produce low budget, mid budget and high budget films. So they just like splatter the market with like Beauty and the Beast to Belle's Enchanted Christmas. Like, they just like anything they can do. They're pumping out these films. So motives in the 90s are a really interesting thing to think about. Like, is it for nostalgia? Is it for profiting off of nostalgia? Like those are, they're. They're really interesting questions. Is it for a more kind of catharsis, national mood, meeting the moment?

I don't know. We, I mean, we did not even open that can of worms on the podcast about, you know, the whole commercial aspects of Christmas. But that has to be a big driving force behind, I guess, what Hollywood makes and why. But perhaps that's a conversation for another day. But I do wonder, before I let you go, if you spoke to someone who had never seen a Christmas film before in their life, what would you recommend they watch?

That is a big question. Probably Klaus. I really think that Klaus captures so much of just the beauty of the history of Christmas. You might need a lot of the kind of history to go along with it, to really appreciate it in that way. And maybe as the most qualified person to talk about Christmas films, maybe I am standing on an island alone, being like, this is perfect, but it really is a very perfect film. And after that, probably It's a Wonderful Life, they, they do go hand in hand for me as the top tier. Like, examples of Christmas films.

Yeah.

At least American Christmas films, in my mind, that capture American Christmas. We'll say it that way. Films that capture.

Fair enough. I mean, I am with you, though, in terms of Klaus. I actually remember I put myself out there back in 2019 when it was released and said that Klaus was going to win the Oscar for Best Animated Feature in the following, like, February. It didn't. I think it was Toy Story 4 or something that won, but probably some Disney film. Yeah, probably. But I. I am with you completely on Klaus. Not just as a great Christmas film, but just as a great film. So. Yeah.

So good.

It's really good. Yeah. Right. Firstly, actually, before one last thing before I let you go, because I'm a Brit, you're an American. How are you spending the holidays this year?

I will be with my husband and stepchildren for Christmas and I'm very excited about it. It will be our first Christmas since we've been married, so we'll have a nice little traditional family get together on Christmas. How are you spending Christmas?

Very, very similar. I will be with my wife, my dogs, my child, and we have a lot of family that live within a kind of mile radius, so we tend to see everyone within a very condensed space of time. So it's a crazy couple of days. Lots of eating, lots of drinking, lots of just being around people. But it's nice.

Lovely. I hope it's a wonderful time.

And ditto to you, Vaughan. Thank you for taking the time to join me to talk about Christmas films and hopefully we'll get you back on the podcast sometime soon. And for anyone that's listening to this, if you haven't already, check out the full episode where I chat to Vaughn about Christmas films. And remember to follow the show review. Rate us all the usual stuff wherever you're listening, and if you like what you hear, you can support the show from as little as one simple dollar. Just follow the links in the show notes. Thank you so much for listening and if you are listening this side of Christmas, I hope you have a wonderful holiday season. However, and wherever you're celebrating, goodbye.