1 00:00:00,625 --> 00:00:02,502 I think one of the, 2 00:00:03,628 --> 00:00:06,798 mental health concerns in our conservative 3 00:00:06,798 --> 00:00:10,427 customs, is to relate to it as a spiritual problem. 4 00:00:11,261 --> 00:00:13,596 If we do that first spiritual, 5 00:00:13,596 --> 00:00:16,725 second of all problem, that means go to the ministers 6 00:00:17,392 --> 00:00:19,352 and that shoves it away from me. 7 00:00:19,352 --> 00:00:22,355 Not my problem, go to the support team, not my problem. 8 00:00:22,564 --> 00:00:23,732 Or just read your Bible more. 9 00:00:23,732 --> 00:00:25,442 Or just read your Bible more. 10 00:00:25,692 --> 00:00:27,318 You know, just shape it up. 11 00:00:27,318 --> 00:00:30,905 You know, if you'd pray more, if you'd have more faith, fast more 12 00:00:31,489 --> 00:00:34,367 whatever. You know, fill in the blank. 13 00:00:34,367 --> 00:00:39,080 Then that pushes it, you know, to a place that we are comfortable with. 14 00:00:39,998 --> 00:00:42,751 We have to be willing to be a little uncomfortable. 15 00:00:48,339 --> 00:00:48,965 Elizabeth, 16 00:00:48,965 --> 00:00:51,968 welcome to the Anabaptist Perspectives podcast. 17 00:00:52,177 --> 00:00:55,889 We did a previous episode with you on your work as a, as a social worker 18 00:00:55,889 --> 00:00:57,432 and also one on, on your testimony. 19 00:00:57,432 --> 00:00:59,225 So we're not going to really get into those things 20 00:00:59,225 --> 00:01:02,228 necessarily, people can check those out in the, in the description. 21 00:01:02,645 --> 00:01:05,899 But today I want to dive into something 22 00:01:05,899 --> 00:01:08,985 that's kind of more of a sobering, yeah, topic. 23 00:01:08,985 --> 00:01:13,948 And that's how do we support and care for those suffering from mental illness? 24 00:01:14,616 --> 00:01:16,743 This is not something that's talked about that much. 25 00:01:16,743 --> 00:01:18,745 And I don't know if you want to get into any of that 26 00:01:18,745 --> 00:01:21,206 as far as like stigmas, stigmas go and so forth. 27 00:01:21,206 --> 00:01:25,293 But, specifically, how do we care how can we be 28 00:01:25,293 --> 00:01:27,962 gracious towards those that are going through this 29 00:01:27,962 --> 00:01:30,882 or have a family member going through this? 30 00:01:30,882 --> 00:01:32,050 What what can we do? 31 00:01:33,051 --> 00:01:34,928 That's that's that's the big 32 00:01:34,928 --> 00:01:38,098 I think the big question for everybody, what can we do? 33 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:39,808 It's difficult. 34 00:01:39,808 --> 00:01:42,811 It's messy and it's controversial. 35 00:01:43,812 --> 00:01:46,648 So, the context that I come, 36 00:01:46,648 --> 00:01:50,693 am coming from is not so much as a mental health professional, 37 00:01:51,319 --> 00:01:54,948 although technically that is what I would be considered by occupation. 38 00:01:56,074 --> 00:01:59,160 As a licensed social worker, I would be able 39 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:03,456 to diagnose and treat and counsel and do all of that. 40 00:02:04,499 --> 00:02:07,335 However, I am speaking 41 00:02:07,335 --> 00:02:11,256 as a Mennonite lady who has a social work education 42 00:02:11,756 --> 00:02:14,968 who's been thrown in the muddle and seen a few things. 43 00:02:16,177 --> 00:02:19,180 During my studies for my, 44 00:02:19,305 --> 00:02:23,893 graduate school, I did a paper on the support networks 45 00:02:23,893 --> 00:02:27,522 that we as conservative people put together 46 00:02:27,522 --> 00:02:30,525 to help families in crisis. 47 00:02:30,692 --> 00:02:34,737 You'll hear me use the term mental health diagnosis. 48 00:02:34,946 --> 00:02:39,117 That's the politically correct term. 49 00:02:39,367 --> 00:02:42,328 Today could change in a few years. 50 00:02:42,579 --> 00:02:44,873 So that's kind of the preferred statement. 51 00:02:44,873 --> 00:02:48,543 So I probably slip into my teacher speak. So, 52 00:02:50,003 --> 00:02:50,503 which is 53 00:02:50,503 --> 00:02:54,299 different because we from a conservative setting don't grab 54 00:02:54,299 --> 00:02:57,510 onto those, those changes and those things. 55 00:02:57,927 --> 00:03:00,722 But that word illness, the reason 56 00:03:00,722 --> 00:03:04,767 that has been, you know, kind of pulled back is because 57 00:03:04,767 --> 00:03:09,314 if you say someone has an illness, then you're saying, fix that problem. 58 00:03:10,481 --> 00:03:14,277 If I have a tumor, I go to the doctor, fix that problem. 59 00:03:14,652 --> 00:03:17,280 We call that the medical model. 60 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:18,364 I have a problem. 61 00:03:18,364 --> 00:03:20,200 You're going to fix it. 62 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:22,660 But we can't look at people that way 63 00:03:22,660 --> 00:03:25,496 because we can't fix people. 64 00:03:25,496 --> 00:03:28,499 If somebody is born with muscular dystrophy 65 00:03:28,708 --> 00:03:31,044 we can't fix the muscular dystrophy. 66 00:03:31,044 --> 00:03:32,420 We can work with it. 67 00:03:32,420 --> 00:03:36,132 We can help them to have optimal health and a good life. 68 00:03:36,591 --> 00:03:39,594 But we can't fix the muscular dystrophy. 69 00:03:39,844 --> 00:03:42,430 So now we change that paradigm 70 00:03:42,430 --> 00:03:45,433 over to mental health. 71 00:03:45,808 --> 00:03:48,811 And okay, so they've got a mental health diagnosis. 72 00:03:48,978 --> 00:03:53,650 It's a little easier to look at it as what we would call the social model. 73 00:03:53,816 --> 00:03:56,736 How are we going to deal with this as a community? 74 00:03:56,736 --> 00:03:59,739 How are we going to look at the entire person, 75 00:03:59,781 --> 00:04:03,576 not just what's going on in their brain, but the whole person? 76 00:04:03,952 --> 00:04:06,955 That's when you get into social work and the whole person 77 00:04:07,455 --> 00:04:11,376 standpoint, of looking at how you're going to help somebody through it. 78 00:04:11,876 --> 00:04:15,922 And isn't that maybe how we as a church want to look at things, 79 00:04:16,214 --> 00:04:19,217 especially people in crisis and difficulty 80 00:04:19,676 --> 00:04:22,470 is how how are we going to do that as a community? 81 00:04:23,846 --> 00:04:26,140 So that, 82 00:04:26,140 --> 00:04:28,893 you know, the definition of mental illness 83 00:04:28,893 --> 00:04:32,772 can can go from one place to another? 84 00:04:33,356 --> 00:04:37,402 Yes. It's probably what I would use to describe the person that is, 85 00:04:38,528 --> 00:04:41,030 not stable with medication 86 00:04:41,030 --> 00:04:44,534 and their behaviors, making it so that they cannot function. 87 00:04:45,493 --> 00:04:48,037 They probably have a mental illness. 88 00:04:48,037 --> 00:04:50,206 Yeah. They should see a doctor. 89 00:04:50,206 --> 00:04:52,125 Doesn't mean it's going to 90 00:04:52,125 --> 00:04:54,711 always. Medication isn't always the answer. 91 00:04:54,711 --> 00:04:58,339 And, you know, we have this tendency we're going to either really spiritualize 92 00:04:58,339 --> 00:05:03,219 it or we're really going to make it a physiological thing, you know? 93 00:05:03,219 --> 00:05:06,222 And so of course let's find a middle ground, you know. 94 00:05:07,015 --> 00:05:09,892 So but it's tough. Yes. 95 00:05:09,892 --> 00:05:13,646 The reason there's stigma, I would say, you know, it's messy stuff. 96 00:05:13,646 --> 00:05:17,817 It's out of the box and none of us like to go out of our box. 97 00:05:18,151 --> 00:05:20,987 We might all have different boxes, different sizes, 98 00:05:20,987 --> 00:05:24,449 but none of us likes to go out of our box, you know? 99 00:05:24,699 --> 00:05:29,412 So I think that's part of where stigma comes in. stigma. 100 00:05:29,412 --> 00:05:30,830 And it doesn't feel like it's 101 00:05:31,831 --> 00:05:33,333 talked about that much either. 102 00:05:33,333 --> 00:05:35,335 It's just like we just don't really go there. 103 00:05:35,335 --> 00:05:38,338 And maybe that's just because we don't know what to do with it, 104 00:05:38,463 --> 00:05:41,883 Exactly, exactly, exactly. 105 00:05:42,508 --> 00:05:45,511 When I did my my paper, 106 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:49,057 I sent out interviews and questionnaires. 107 00:05:49,057 --> 00:05:53,102 And I also interviewed people who were served by support teams. 108 00:05:53,770 --> 00:05:58,941 And what I mean by a support team is our traditional way of gathering 109 00:05:59,567 --> 00:06:02,278 2 or 3 couples to work with a person 110 00:06:02,278 --> 00:06:05,281 during a crisis situation, a person or a family. 111 00:06:05,698 --> 00:06:08,368 And so I got the input from all angles, 112 00:06:08,368 --> 00:06:11,371 from those that served on a support team 113 00:06:11,454 --> 00:06:14,457 and those who are served by a support team. 114 00:06:14,791 --> 00:06:19,420 And so I just kind of gathered up, you know, a lot of information from that 115 00:06:19,420 --> 00:06:22,423 that might answer some of your questions, 116 00:06:22,715 --> 00:06:25,676 more from from the viewpoint of the people. 117 00:06:25,676 --> 00:06:29,722 And to be completely blunt, I've been on both sides. 118 00:06:30,181 --> 00:06:34,143 So I kind of have a heart for both, both angles. 119 00:06:35,478 --> 00:06:38,898 So I think one of the, 120 00:06:40,024 --> 00:06:43,194 mental health concerns in our conservative 121 00:06:43,194 --> 00:06:46,823 customs, is to relate to it as a spiritual problem. 122 00:06:47,657 --> 00:06:49,992 If we do that first spiritual, 123 00:06:49,992 --> 00:06:53,121 second of all problem, that means go to the ministers 124 00:06:54,205 --> 00:06:56,165 and that shoves it away from me. 125 00:06:56,165 --> 00:06:59,168 Not my problem, go to the support team, not my problem. 126 00:06:59,377 --> 00:07:02,380 Or just read your Bible more. 127 00:07:02,630 --> 00:07:04,257 You know, just shape it up. 128 00:07:04,257 --> 00:07:07,844 You know, if you'd pray more, if you'd have more faith, fast more 129 00:07:08,428 --> 00:07:11,305 whatever. You know, fill in the blank. 130 00:07:11,305 --> 00:07:16,018 Then that pushes it, you know, to a place that we are comfortable with. 131 00:07:16,936 --> 00:07:19,939 We have to be willing to be a little uncomfortable. 132 00:07:20,523 --> 00:07:23,526 Jesus was willing to be a little uncomfortable. 133 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:30,283 Maybe it would be okay if I am okay with being uncomfortable because until heaven, 134 00:07:31,534 --> 00:07:33,911 you know, we will be. 135 00:07:33,911 --> 00:07:36,664 So, if we approach mental illness 136 00:07:36,664 --> 00:07:40,001 from a community or social perspective, 137 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:45,256 then it's going to take some of the negative stigma away 138 00:07:46,299 --> 00:07:48,217 because it's not you. 139 00:07:48,217 --> 00:07:51,345 If you were a person who was having something going on. 140 00:07:51,888 --> 00:07:54,515 Now, I'm not saying there's something wrong with you. 141 00:07:54,515 --> 00:07:57,518 It's like, what can we do 142 00:07:57,643 --> 00:08:00,188 to get through this together? 143 00:08:00,188 --> 00:08:05,026 So that's the shift that I feel has been longed for 144 00:08:05,443 --> 00:08:10,364 from those who have gone through it, who have had somebody in their 145 00:08:11,073 --> 00:08:15,119 in their home or in their family that is struggling in that way, 146 00:08:17,038 --> 00:08:21,417 with my specialty or whatever, 147 00:08:21,417 --> 00:08:25,630 being people with disabilities, it's been an interesting contrast. 148 00:08:26,589 --> 00:08:29,592 Some of the best care I've ever seen 149 00:08:29,967 --> 00:08:34,055 is an Amish household taking care of a special needs individual. 150 00:08:34,639 --> 00:08:36,098 I mean, it just 151 00:08:38,059 --> 00:08:39,310 we got that 152 00:08:39,310 --> 00:08:43,147 we as a conservative people, we do that very, very well. 153 00:08:43,940 --> 00:08:48,486 And those individuals are cared for so well, 154 00:08:48,486 --> 00:08:52,365 they're treated culturally, almost like angels unawares. 155 00:08:52,823 --> 00:08:54,158 And it's beautiful. 156 00:08:54,158 --> 00:08:56,035 It's beautiful. 157 00:08:56,035 --> 00:08:57,703 Now let's shift that. 158 00:08:57,703 --> 00:09:02,041 What if the schizophrenic farmer who talks to himself 159 00:09:02,041 --> 00:09:05,044 while he's out plowing is treated the same way? 160 00:09:06,128 --> 00:09:08,047 What about the young mother 161 00:09:08,047 --> 00:09:11,050 who absolutely cannot cope after she had a baby 162 00:09:11,342 --> 00:09:15,096 because she's plunged into some weird kind of postpartum depression? 163 00:09:16,222 --> 00:09:19,809 You know, what if we embraced them 164 00:09:20,226 --> 00:09:23,229 and their situation in the same way? 165 00:09:23,896 --> 00:09:26,315 So that's that's a thought that I just kind of want to leave 166 00:09:26,315 --> 00:09:29,652 with the listeners of, you know, if we could take, 167 00:09:30,945 --> 00:09:32,530 that well care. 168 00:09:32,530 --> 00:09:36,075 So we look at you know, the individual that is brain damaged 169 00:09:36,075 --> 00:09:39,704 through whatever situation and we go, oh, he can't help it. 170 00:09:39,704 --> 00:09:41,414 You know, he was born that way. 171 00:09:41,414 --> 00:09:47,128 We'll take care of him as God made him who’s to say that the schizophrenic farmer, 172 00:09:48,212 --> 00:09:48,546 I mean 173 00:09:48,546 --> 00:09:52,508 God made his brain, you know, I mean, it's it's proven 174 00:09:52,508 --> 00:09:55,928 that schizophrenia is a malfunction of the brain organ. 175 00:09:56,304 --> 00:09:59,682 You know, they can do all the neuroscience and point where and the whole bit. 176 00:10:00,182 --> 00:10:03,561 So what if we treat him as a community 177 00:10:04,061 --> 00:10:08,399 the same way this is what God has put in our church group. 178 00:10:08,566 --> 00:10:11,235 This is what God has assigned to us. 179 00:10:11,235 --> 00:10:14,196 How can we love him well. 180 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:17,283 But it's uncomfortable and it's messy. 181 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:20,828 So practically 182 00:10:20,828 --> 00:10:25,207 then what's, what's something the listeners that’s hearing this is okay. 183 00:10:25,207 --> 00:10:26,584 What's, what's something they could do. 184 00:10:26,584 --> 00:10:29,420 Like let's get practical. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 185 00:10:29,420 --> 00:10:30,504 I'm glad you asked. 186 00:10:30,504 --> 00:10:30,755 I'm glad you asked. 187 00:10:30,755 --> 00:10:35,593 So with this school paper what I came up with was 188 00:10:36,093 --> 00:10:39,096 I kind of walked away with a message 189 00:10:39,263 --> 00:10:42,266 from the people that have been served by support groups. 190 00:10:42,558 --> 00:10:45,436 And I've come across, kind of received a message 191 00:10:45,436 --> 00:10:48,648 for those who served on the support groups. 192 00:10:49,231 --> 00:10:52,360 And so, support is really 193 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:55,446 a big word that I would like people think about. 194 00:10:56,155 --> 00:10:58,449 I'm not talking about financial support. 195 00:10:58,449 --> 00:11:01,702 I mean that that is a valid topic, but for a whole nother 196 00:11:02,703 --> 00:11:04,372 a whole nother place. 197 00:11:04,372 --> 00:11:09,502 I'm talking about, you know, spiritual support, not teaching, 198 00:11:09,502 --> 00:11:14,465 not indoctrining, but support holding up the arms during the battle. 199 00:11:14,924 --> 00:11:17,343 How are we holding up the arms of the family 200 00:11:17,343 --> 00:11:20,346 or the suffering individual during the battle? 201 00:11:20,596 --> 00:11:24,100 I think we would do well to ask Christ. 202 00:11:24,100 --> 00:11:28,312 Ask the Lord, how do you want me to be your hands in this? 203 00:11:28,688 --> 00:11:31,732 And that answer is going to be different for different people 204 00:11:31,732 --> 00:11:34,735 according to their talents and callings. 205 00:11:35,319 --> 00:11:38,155 You know, a preacher who is preparing for his Sunday 206 00:11:38,155 --> 00:11:42,743 lesson on Sunday morning is not the person that should drive the person to church. 207 00:11:43,327 --> 00:11:46,497 You know, you do where you're called, how you're called. 208 00:11:46,706 --> 00:11:49,083 You know, that is part of it. 209 00:11:49,083 --> 00:11:53,546 But ministering to the heart of the people that we are trying to support 210 00:11:54,004 --> 00:11:58,634 must be done in a way that promotes dignity, value and validation. 211 00:11:59,677 --> 00:12:01,804 The participants of the project 212 00:12:01,804 --> 00:12:06,100 expressed a feeling of being worked on instead of worked with. 213 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:10,688 So these are these are people you interviewed for this research you did. 214 00:12:11,105 --> 00:12:14,191 For my project, you know, and and they felt like 215 00:12:14,191 --> 00:12:17,445 they were trying to be fixed, like they were a problem to be solved. 216 00:12:17,862 --> 00:12:22,658 They wanted someone walking next to them, not in front of them, pulling them along. 217 00:12:22,658 --> 00:12:26,078 A lot of them talk felt like they were being, like, yanked on a leash. 218 00:12:26,078 --> 00:12:28,998 Come this way. This is how we be a Mennonite. 219 00:12:28,998 --> 00:12:31,125 You know, kind of a thing. 220 00:12:31,125 --> 00:12:34,128 They're just trying to get by day by day. 221 00:12:34,128 --> 00:12:37,631 And we bring in our culture and our own expectations. 222 00:12:38,591 --> 00:12:42,762 We have to loosen those, first of all, in order to even accept their situation. 223 00:12:43,179 --> 00:12:45,389 But they want to be worked with, not on. 224 00:12:46,474 --> 00:12:49,894 And, building a relationship is first, 225 00:12:50,603 --> 00:12:53,606 you're not going to help anybody if you haven't built a relationship. 226 00:12:54,273 --> 00:12:56,734 When Jesus was healing people, what did he do? 227 00:12:56,734 --> 00:12:58,152 He asked their name. 228 00:12:58,152 --> 00:13:00,321 He asked what your situation was. 229 00:13:00,321 --> 00:13:02,907 He knew the person was lame. 230 00:13:02,907 --> 00:13:05,451 He knew how many hairs were on his head. 231 00:13:05,451 --> 00:13:07,953 But he engaged the person first. 232 00:13:07,953 --> 00:13:08,829 That's a good point. 233 00:13:08,829 --> 00:13:11,081 What do you want from me? 234 00:13:11,081 --> 00:13:13,542 What can I do for you? 235 00:13:13,542 --> 00:13:15,336 You know. Why are you here? 236 00:13:15,336 --> 00:13:16,128 Say it. 237 00:13:16,128 --> 00:13:19,131 Let's embrace your situation now. 238 00:13:20,049 --> 00:13:21,634 Let's go. 239 00:13:21,634 --> 00:13:25,012 It feels like there's a pretty significant framing difference 240 00:13:25,262 --> 00:13:28,599 when you use the word with in that sentence. 241 00:13:28,724 --> 00:13:31,310 Definitely. The. 242 00:13:31,310 --> 00:13:34,313 When you're working on something, you're already separating that person. 243 00:13:34,313 --> 00:13:35,022 I'm working on you. 244 00:13:35,022 --> 00:13:38,442 I'm trying to make you conform to what I think of. 245 00:13:39,193 --> 00:13:42,154 If I'm working with then the person say, 246 00:13:42,154 --> 00:13:45,157 this is a person that's living with a mental health diagnosis. 247 00:13:45,282 --> 00:13:47,493 What are your goals? 248 00:13:47,493 --> 00:13:50,412 What do you want to function? 249 00:13:50,412 --> 00:13:51,539 You know, now, yes. 250 00:13:51,539 --> 00:13:54,500 Maybe somebody who's really deep into 251 00:13:54,500 --> 00:13:58,420 maybe some psychosis or whatever, their goals aren't even very clear. 252 00:13:58,420 --> 00:14:01,632 And they need you need family to come in and say, well, 253 00:14:01,632 --> 00:14:04,593 you know, you know, all the chickens in the chicken house are dying. 254 00:14:04,593 --> 00:14:05,469 Maybe we need to 255 00:14:07,096 --> 00:14:09,682 but but still it feels like you, 256 00:14:09,682 --> 00:14:13,811 that terminology use there gives in my mind 257 00:14:13,811 --> 00:14:18,274 I automatically think of walking alongside someone like on a journey or something. 258 00:14:18,274 --> 00:14:18,649 Yeah. Yeah. 259 00:14:18,649 --> 00:14:22,778 And you're and you're there and you're supporting whatever that seems like 260 00:14:22,778 --> 00:14:25,781 that makes a fundamental different image in our heads. 261 00:14:25,906 --> 00:14:28,200 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 262 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,203 And that would be the shift from a problem to fix 263 00:14:31,495 --> 00:14:34,498 to a situation to embrace. 264 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:38,002 You know let's just embrace this and 265 00:14:38,002 --> 00:14:41,964 you know a crisis can be viewed as something that 266 00:14:43,048 --> 00:14:44,466 could be given to the church. 267 00:14:44,466 --> 00:14:48,512 Like the Lord says, hey church, this is this is your quiz. 268 00:14:49,138 --> 00:14:51,015 This is, this is what I have for you. 269 00:14:51,015 --> 00:14:53,142 How are you going to respond to this? 270 00:14:53,142 --> 00:14:56,312 This is the journey I have for you at this time. 271 00:14:57,521 --> 00:15:02,484 So I guess that's where my my view goes. 272 00:15:02,484 --> 00:15:06,780 Another thing that the people really, showed up a lot in the surveys 273 00:15:07,114 --> 00:15:09,575 was education. 274 00:15:09,575 --> 00:15:13,329 So, that they wish that people 275 00:15:13,329 --> 00:15:18,167 would ask them questions about the condition in the situation 276 00:15:19,168 --> 00:15:22,296 and, and look into it and learn about it 277 00:15:22,630 --> 00:15:25,633 either experientially or, 278 00:15:26,050 --> 00:15:28,469 you know, by actually reading. 279 00:15:28,469 --> 00:15:32,681 And now I will put a little thing in there that doesn't mean, 280 00:15:32,973 --> 00:15:35,851 oh, you know, I looked it up and you should take, you know, Buddy’s 281 00:15:35,851 --> 00:15:38,854 magic wonder pills because that cures autism. 282 00:15:38,854 --> 00:15:42,024 You know, that is not what people are looking for, okay. 283 00:15:42,149 --> 00:15:47,613 But that understanding, that openness, that curiosity that I am willing to 284 00:15:47,613 --> 00:15:50,616 come into your journey and find out 285 00:15:50,991 --> 00:15:54,453 what is what is Janet's therapy like? 286 00:15:55,287 --> 00:15:59,667 You know, I'd like to see you do her physical therapy every day, you know. 287 00:15:59,667 --> 00:16:03,420 Or can I come along with you when you go over to Phil Haven for your appointment? 288 00:16:04,505 --> 00:16:05,589 I'll just sit in the waiting room. 289 00:16:05,589 --> 00:16:06,674 But just so that you're. 290 00:16:06,674 --> 00:16:09,677 You know what these folks are, 291 00:16:09,718 --> 00:16:11,845 going through building context 292 00:16:11,845 --> 00:16:14,848 or something or awareness to really. 293 00:16:14,848 --> 00:16:17,226 Like a pretty base level. 294 00:16:17,226 --> 00:16:19,812 Then you'll have something to give 295 00:16:19,812 --> 00:16:22,815 and you will know what to give. 296 00:16:23,148 --> 00:16:25,818 You know, if you're going through this journey with someone 297 00:16:25,818 --> 00:16:28,821 and you find out that, okay, well, this is a person that really like 298 00:16:28,946 --> 00:16:32,032 they are not for medications, they are not for doctoring. 299 00:16:32,408 --> 00:16:35,119 Well, then, you know, don't don't even 300 00:16:35,119 --> 00:16:38,330 you don't have to go down that road with them. 301 00:16:38,580 --> 00:16:40,791 Yeah. Build the relationship first. 302 00:16:40,791 --> 00:16:43,794 Then you're in much less danger of saying the wrong thing, 303 00:16:44,253 --> 00:16:47,256 which is really isn't that what we're all afraid of? 304 00:16:47,464 --> 00:16:48,549 Saying the wrong thing? 305 00:16:48,549 --> 00:16:50,759 it sounds like what you're outlining here, 306 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:53,178 is a lot more work 307 00:16:53,178 --> 00:16:56,515 or like harder to do it because, you know, we're humans, 308 00:16:56,515 --> 00:16:59,018 we kind of like the easy path or the shortcuts. Right. 309 00:16:59,018 --> 00:17:02,438 Where's the To-Do list or that's the one option or the other. 310 00:17:02,438 --> 00:17:03,897 Could be perhaps. 311 00:17:03,897 --> 00:17:04,940 Oh, the stigma. 312 00:17:04,940 --> 00:17:05,441 I was like, well, we're 313 00:17:05,441 --> 00:17:08,444 just not really going to talk about that because we don't really want to, 314 00:17:08,819 --> 00:17:10,654 you know, deal with that. Yeah. 315 00:17:10,654 --> 00:17:13,365 What you're describing sounds. 316 00:17:13,365 --> 00:17:13,657 Yeah. 317 00:17:13,657 --> 00:17:16,201 Like you take a lot of time, you know, a lot of care, 318 00:17:16,201 --> 00:17:20,414 a lot of loving on people and so forth and a lot of other things, obviously. 319 00:17:20,414 --> 00:17:21,165 But, Yeah. 320 00:17:21,165 --> 00:17:22,666 It sounds it sounds like. 321 00:17:22,666 --> 00:17:27,755 Yeah, it'd be you'd have to invest a lot into this, Well and that's what I found. 322 00:17:27,755 --> 00:17:33,052 Is that significant damage has been done because people did not take the time 323 00:17:33,510 --> 00:17:37,848 or possess the humility to truly learn about various conditions. 324 00:17:38,140 --> 00:17:41,602 It takes determination and time and empathy 325 00:17:42,061 --> 00:17:44,563 to enter into the challenges faced by some of these people. 326 00:17:44,563 --> 00:17:46,190 Yeah, that makes sense. 327 00:17:46,190 --> 00:17:50,694 Chronic health issues, mental health issues, special needs, 328 00:17:51,028 --> 00:17:53,906 financial crisis, whatever. 329 00:17:53,906 --> 00:17:59,161 We can invite speakers in on topics we can pass around, informative books. 330 00:17:59,912 --> 00:18:01,955 We can engage in conversations. 331 00:18:02,998 --> 00:18:03,916 If I know you 332 00:18:03,916 --> 00:18:06,919 well, I, you know, I can study a topic 333 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,963 or ask you for information you recommend. 334 00:18:11,256 --> 00:18:14,259 You know, those are all methods that 335 00:18:14,426 --> 00:18:17,012 any of us can pour 336 00:18:17,012 --> 00:18:19,598 into one another. 337 00:18:19,598 --> 00:18:21,266 So this is obviously 338 00:18:21,266 --> 00:18:24,311 a very complex and multifaceted topic. 339 00:18:24,311 --> 00:18:27,523 You know people spend their lifetimes studying this and so forth. 340 00:18:27,523 --> 00:18:31,026 So we're never going to cover everything right in this short episode. 341 00:18:31,026 --> 00:18:32,820 But hopefully this gives some people 342 00:18:32,820 --> 00:18:36,073 some some basic parameters, some frameworks to kind of start with. 343 00:18:36,073 --> 00:18:39,326 And I'm, I'm hoping you know, maybe raises 344 00:18:39,326 --> 00:18:42,621 the level of awareness, you know, to at least start asking the questions. 345 00:18:43,247 --> 00:18:47,793 So as we look at the kind of outline of what you've presented today 346 00:18:48,210 --> 00:18:51,713 and we wrap this up, what is something you'd like to leave with our audience? 347 00:18:52,714 --> 00:18:55,968 I guess the whole thing kind of brought me to this place 348 00:18:55,968 --> 00:18:59,847 where I have, like, I feel like I can speak as kind of a composite 349 00:18:59,847 --> 00:19:03,267 of all the people that contributed to the questionnaire. 350 00:19:03,809 --> 00:19:06,520 And so to those 351 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:10,023 who are serving people with needs and challenges, 352 00:19:10,315 --> 00:19:14,153 what I want to say on behalf of those 353 00:19:14,153 --> 00:19:18,282 who need help, so to speak, or are seeking assistance, is 354 00:19:18,532 --> 00:19:21,535 thank you for being willing to walk with us. 355 00:19:22,953 --> 00:19:25,956 You are courageous and servant hearted person, 356 00:19:26,456 --> 00:19:30,752 and even when we are in too much pain to really express that. 357 00:19:31,211 --> 00:19:35,048 Okay, so you're remember that your folks 358 00:19:35,048 --> 00:19:38,051 are suffering or going through a difficult time. 359 00:19:38,218 --> 00:19:41,180 Frankly, you're viewing a bag of trash. 360 00:19:41,180 --> 00:19:44,183 You are seeing my trash. 361 00:19:44,766 --> 00:19:47,436 So you need to be gracious going into that. 362 00:19:47,436 --> 00:19:50,898 And it's appreciated when that happens because 363 00:19:52,065 --> 00:19:53,817 we as people are going through 364 00:19:53,817 --> 00:19:56,945 a crisis, may not be able to see that really clearly right now. 365 00:19:57,696 --> 00:19:57,988 Okay. 366 00:19:57,988 --> 00:19:59,031 And our communication 367 00:19:59,031 --> 00:20:02,492 might be suffering as a result of everything that has happened. 368 00:20:03,076 --> 00:20:07,915 So don't take us as a project or a problem, but as a opportunity 369 00:20:08,332 --> 00:20:11,501 for the church to grow and, 370 00:20:13,003 --> 00:20:14,588 help the church to show Christ 371 00:20:14,588 --> 00:20:17,716 in all things take us seriously. 372 00:20:18,008 --> 00:20:21,011 And if we've experienced abuse, 373 00:20:22,429 --> 00:20:24,556 that's going to complicate. 374 00:20:24,556 --> 00:20:27,643 And you can see the other the podcast 375 00:20:27,643 --> 00:20:32,397 that you did on on some of those issues, but you have to remember 376 00:20:32,397 --> 00:20:35,609 that a person is only going to disclose as much. 377 00:20:36,151 --> 00:20:39,613 They might just give you a little taste to see if you're safe. 378 00:20:40,614 --> 00:20:41,156 Yeah. 379 00:20:41,156 --> 00:20:43,992 Don't react. 380 00:20:43,992 --> 00:20:45,827 Just let them. They are. 381 00:20:45,827 --> 00:20:49,706 They don't even know if I tell you just this little bit and you overreact, 382 00:20:50,123 --> 00:20:52,125 I'm going to pull back, okay? 383 00:20:52,125 --> 00:20:54,044 And we're not going to be able to build relationship, 384 00:20:54,044 --> 00:20:56,463 and you're not going to be able to speak into what's going on. 385 00:20:57,631 --> 00:21:00,634 So just walk in with humility 386 00:21:00,676 --> 00:21:04,680 and open heartedness and don't try to fix the problem. 387 00:21:05,639 --> 00:21:08,642 Concentrate on the relationship. 388 00:21:08,725 --> 00:21:11,478 So, that's that's what I kind of, 389 00:21:11,478 --> 00:21:14,982 you know, there's just a lot of damage done and a lot of trash. 390 00:21:14,982 --> 00:21:17,985 It's messy and that there's just no way to go around it. 391 00:21:18,735 --> 00:21:21,697 To those who are being supported by the support teams, 392 00:21:22,155 --> 00:21:26,451 remember that we are handling a bag of trash 393 00:21:27,035 --> 00:21:30,414 to someone who has volunteered and has a lot of other things to do, 394 00:21:30,831 --> 00:21:33,834 but loves us enough to be willing to help them. 395 00:21:34,084 --> 00:21:37,504 Even if they're making mistakes, they at least have a heart to help. 396 00:21:38,755 --> 00:21:40,799 And that's hard to remember when you yourself are hurting 397 00:21:40,799 --> 00:21:42,259 or going through that. 398 00:21:42,259 --> 00:21:45,262 We have to remember that we're all sinful, clumsy creatures. 399 00:21:45,762 --> 00:21:46,847 And so, 400 00:21:48,557 --> 00:21:49,766 things don't just always 401 00:21:49,766 --> 00:21:52,769 click to a successful outcome. 402 00:21:53,687 --> 00:21:54,396 And that's the thing. 403 00:21:54,396 --> 00:21:58,150 We're very outcome driven as people, you know, we gotta fix this. 404 00:21:58,150 --> 00:22:00,319 We gotta have a successful outcome. 405 00:22:00,319 --> 00:22:03,739 But if we concentrate on the journey, we're we're better off. 406 00:22:03,989 --> 00:22:05,949 So this is messy stuff. 407 00:22:05,949 --> 00:22:07,659 And Jesus gets that. 408 00:22:07,659 --> 00:22:09,911 Jesus understands messy. 409 00:22:09,911 --> 00:22:13,623 He's not watching for certain exact results. 410 00:22:13,874 --> 00:22:17,794 He's watching to see how we all relate 411 00:22:17,794 --> 00:22:20,756 to each other in him. 412 00:22:20,881 --> 00:22:25,594 So it isn't always pretty and it doesn't have tidy, complete conclusions 413 00:22:26,136 --> 00:22:29,931 supporting people like the ones in the Luke 14 banquet 414 00:22:31,016 --> 00:22:32,726 is messy and it's tricky. 415 00:22:32,726 --> 00:22:35,729 It's it's the lame, it's the salt, it's the feeble minded. 416 00:22:35,771 --> 00:22:36,897 Okay? 417 00:22:36,897 --> 00:22:39,608 And really, we're all there at some point. 418 00:22:39,608 --> 00:22:43,737 If nothing else, at the moment we kneel before the cross, broken by our sins. 419 00:22:44,196 --> 00:22:46,073 That's where we are. 420 00:22:46,073 --> 00:22:47,866 But we all have our days and our ways. 421 00:22:47,866 --> 00:22:49,576 So tap into that compassion. 422 00:22:51,870 --> 00:22:54,956 Tap into the redeeming source of power. 423 00:22:55,749 --> 00:22:56,917 Do you have what it takes? 424 00:22:56,917 --> 00:22:59,920 Well, if you have Christ, you do. 425 00:23:00,504 --> 00:23:00,879 Yeah. 426 00:23:00,879 --> 00:23:04,591 That's, some powerful pieces to leave with our audience. 427 00:23:04,591 --> 00:23:07,636 I think you're giving people a lot to think about here. 428 00:23:07,844 --> 00:23:11,264 And I really hope they can take some pieces out of this and say 429 00:23:11,264 --> 00:23:12,933 oh yeah I should be aware of that. 430 00:23:12,933 --> 00:23:13,725 I should think about that. 431 00:23:13,725 --> 00:23:16,561 I should I should learn more about this so I can 432 00:23:16,561 --> 00:23:19,731 I can help support and, care for people around me. 433 00:23:19,731 --> 00:23:23,693 So I really appreciate you taking the time to come on today, especially because, 434 00:23:23,693 --> 00:23:26,988 you know, we're talking about a kind of a bleak and complicated topic. 435 00:23:26,988 --> 00:23:29,991 So so thank you for what you shared today. 436 00:23:30,409 --> 00:23:31,660 You're welcome. Thank you for having me. 437 00:23:33,578 --> 00:23:34,496 Thanks for listening to 438 00:23:34,496 --> 00:23:37,874 this episode with Elisabeth on supporting those in crisis. 439 00:23:38,291 --> 00:23:39,209 If you're interested in learning 440 00:23:39,209 --> 00:23:42,254 more about this, we interviewed Janelle Glick on Trauma 441 00:23:42,254 --> 00:23:46,383 Informed Churches, and you can find that linked in the description down below. 442 00:23:46,425 --> 00:23:51,221 Of course, all our content is over on our website at anabaptistperspectives.org. 443 00:23:51,471 --> 00:23:53,849 Thanks again and we'll see you in the next episode.