Speaker: 00:00:00

I think one of the,

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mental health concerns in our conservative

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customs, is to relate to it

as a spiritual problem.

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If we do that first spiritual,

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second of all problem,

that means go to the ministers

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and that shoves it away from me.

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Not my problem,

go to the support team, not my problem.

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Or just read your Bible more.

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Or just read your Bible more.

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You know, just shape it up.

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You know, if you'd pray more,

if you'd have more faith, fast more

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whatever. You know, fill in the blank.

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Then that pushes it, you know, to a place

that we are comfortable with.

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We have to be willing to be

a little uncomfortable.

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Elizabeth,

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welcome to the Anabaptist Perspectives

podcast.

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We did a previous episode with you

on your work as a, as a social worker

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and also one on, on your testimony.

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So we're not going to really get

into those things

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necessarily, people can check those out

in the, in the description.

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But today I want to dive into something

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that's kind of more of a sobering,

yeah, topic.

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And that's how do we support and care

for those suffering from mental illness?

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This is not something

that's talked about that much.

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And I don't know

if you want to get into any of that

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as far as like stigmas, stigmas

go and so forth.

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But, specifically, how do we care

how can we be

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gracious towards

those that are going through this

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or have a family member

going through this?

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What what can we do?

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That's that's that's the big

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I think the big question for everybody,

what can we do?

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It's difficult.

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It's messy and it's controversial.

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So, the context that I come,

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am coming from is not so much

as a mental health professional,

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although technically that is what

I would be considered by occupation.

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As a licensed social worker,

I would be able

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to diagnose and treat and counsel

and do all of that.

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However, I am speaking

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as a Mennonite lady

who has a social work education

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who's been thrown in the muddle

and seen a few things.

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During my studies for my,

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graduate school,

I did a paper on the support networks

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that we as conservative

people put together

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to help families in crisis.

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You'll hear me

use the term mental health diagnosis.

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That's the politically correct term.

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Today could change in a few years.

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So that's kind of the preferred statement.

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So I probably slip

into my teacher speak. So,

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which is

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different because we from a conservative

setting don't grab

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onto those, those changes

and those things.

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But that word illness, the reason

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that has been,

you know, kind of pulled back is because

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if you say someone has an illness,

then you're saying, fix that problem.

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If I have a tumor, I go to the doctor,

fix that problem.

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We call that the medical model.

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I have a problem.

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You're going to fix it.

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But we can't look at people that way

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because we can't fix people.

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If somebody is born

with muscular dystrophy

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we can't fix the muscular dystrophy.

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We can work with it.

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We can help them to have optimal health

and a good life.

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But we can't fix the muscular dystrophy.

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So now we change that paradigm

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over to mental health.

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And okay,

so they've got a mental health diagnosis.

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It's a little easier to look at it

as what we would call the social model.

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How are we going to deal

with this as a community?

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How are we going to

look at the entire person,

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not just what's going on in their brain,

but the whole person?

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That's when you get into social work

and the whole person

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standpoint, of looking at how you're going

to help somebody through it.

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And isn't that maybe how we as a church

want to look at things,

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especially people in crisis and difficulty

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is how how are we going

to do that as a community?

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So that,

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you know, the definition of mental illness

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can can go from one place to another?

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Yes. It's probably what I would use

to describe the person that is,

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not stable with medication

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and their behaviors, making it

so that they cannot function.

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They probably have a mental illness.

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Yeah. They should see a doctor.

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Doesn't mean it's going to

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always. Medication

isn't always the answer.

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And, you know, we have this tendency

we're going to either really spiritualize

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it or we're really going to make it

a physiological thing, you know?

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And so of course

let's find a middle ground, you know.

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So but it's tough. Yes.

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The reason there's stigma,

I would say, you know, it's messy stuff.

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It's out of the box

and none of us like to go out of our box.

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We might all have different boxes,

different sizes,

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but none of us likes to go out of our box,

you know?

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So I think that's part

of where stigma comes in. stigma.

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And it doesn't feel like it's

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talked about that much either.

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It's just like

we just don't really go there.

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And maybe that's just because

we don't know what to do with it,

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Exactly, exactly, exactly.

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When I did my my paper,

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I sent out interviews and questionnaires.

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And I also interviewed

people who were served by support teams.

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And what I mean by a support

team is our traditional way of gathering

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2 or 3 couples to work with a person

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during a crisis situation,

a person or a family.

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And so I got the input from all angles,

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from those that served on a support team

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and those who are served

by a support team.

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And so I just kind of gathered up,

you know, a lot of information from that

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that might answer some of your questions,

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more from

from the viewpoint of the people.

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And to be completely blunt,

I've been on both sides.

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So I kind of have a

heart for both, both angles.

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So I think one of the,

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mental health concerns in our conservative

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customs, is to relate to it

as a spiritual problem.

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If we do that first spiritual,

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second of all problem,

that means go to the ministers

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and that shoves it away from me.

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Not my problem,

go to the support team, not my problem.

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Or just read your Bible more.

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You know, just shape it up.

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You know, if you'd pray more,

if you'd have more faith, fast more

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whatever. You know, fill in the blank.

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Then that pushes it, you know, to a place

that we are comfortable with.

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We have to be willing to be

a little uncomfortable.

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Jesus was willing to be

a little uncomfortable.

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Maybe it would be okay if I am okay with

being uncomfortable because until heaven,

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you know, we will be.

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So, if we approach mental illness

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from a community or social perspective,

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then it's going to take

some of the negative stigma away

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because it's not you.

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If you were a person

who was having something going on.

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Now, I'm not saying

there's something wrong with you.

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It's like, what can we do

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to get through this together?

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So that's the shift that I feel

has been longed for

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from those who have gone through it,

who have had somebody in their

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in their home or in their family

that is struggling in that way,

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with my specialty or whatever,

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being people with disabilities, it's

been an interesting contrast.

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Some of the best care I've ever seen

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is an Amish household

taking care of a special needs individual.

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I mean, it just

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we got that

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we as a conservative people,

we do that very, very well.

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And those individuals are cared

for so well,

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they're treated culturally,

almost like angels unawares.

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And it's beautiful.

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It's beautiful.

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Now let's shift that.

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What if the schizophrenic farmer

who talks to himself

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while he's out

plowing is treated the same way?

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What about the young mother

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who absolutely cannot cope

after she had a baby

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because she's plunged into some weird

kind of postpartum depression?

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You know, what if we embraced them

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and their situation in the same way?

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So that's that's a thought

that I just kind of want to leave

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with the listeners of,

you know, if we could take,

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that well care.

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So we look at you know, the individual

that is brain damaged

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through whatever situation

and we go, oh, he can't help it.

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You know, he was born that way.

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We'll take care of him as God made him who’s to say that the schizophrenic farmer,

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I mean

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God made his brain, you know,

I mean, it's it's proven

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that schizophrenia

is a malfunction of the brain organ.

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You know, they can do all the neuroscience

and point where and the whole bit.

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So what if we treat him as a community

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the same way this is

what God has put in our church group.

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This is what God has assigned to us.

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How can we love him well.

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But it's uncomfortable and it's messy.

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So practically

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then what's, what's something

the listeners that’s hearing this is okay.

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What's, what's something they could do.

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Like let's get practical.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

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I'm glad you asked.

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I'm glad you asked.

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So with this school paper

what I came up with was

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I kind of walked away with a message

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from the people

that have been served by support groups.

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And I've come across,

kind of received a message

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for those who served on the support

groups.

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And so, support is really

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a big word that I would like

people think about.

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I'm not talking about financial support.

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I mean that that is a valid

topic, but for a whole nother

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a whole nother place.

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I'm talking about,

you know, spiritual support, not teaching,

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not indoctrining, but support

holding up the arms during the battle.

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How are we holding up

the arms of the family

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or the suffering individual

during the battle?

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I think we would do well to ask Christ.

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Ask the Lord, how do you want me

to be your hands in this?

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And that answer is going to be different

for different people

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according to their talents and callings.

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You know, a preacher

who is preparing for his Sunday

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lesson on Sunday morning is not the person

that should drive the person to church.

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You know, you do where you're called,

how you're called.

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You know, that is part of it.

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But ministering to the heart of the people

that we are trying to support

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must be done in a way that promotes

dignity, value and validation.

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The participants of the project

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expressed a feeling of being worked on

instead of worked with.

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So these are these are people

you interviewed for this research you did.

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For my project,

you know, and and they felt like

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they were trying to be fixed,

like they were a problem to be solved.

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They wanted someone walking next to them,

not in front of them, pulling them along.

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A lot of them talk felt like they were

being, like, yanked on a leash.

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Come this way.

This is how we be a Mennonite.

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You know, kind of a thing.

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They're just trying to get by day by day.

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And we bring in our culture

and our own expectations.

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We have to loosen those, first of all,

in order to even accept their situation.

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But they want to be worked with, not on.

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And, building a relationship is first,

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you're not going to help anybody

if you haven't built a relationship.

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When Jesus was healing people,

what did he do?

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He asked their name.

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He asked what your situation was.

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He knew the person was lame.

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He knew how many hairs were on his head.

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But he engaged the person first.

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That's a good point.

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What do you want from me?

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What can I do for you?

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You know. Why are you here?

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Say it.

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Let's embrace your situation now.

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Let's go.

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It feels like there's a pretty significant

framing difference

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when you use the word

with in that sentence.

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Definitely. The.

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When you're working on something,

you're already separating that person.

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I'm working on you.

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I'm trying to make you conform to

what I think of.

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If I'm working with then the person say,

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this is a person that's living

with a mental health diagnosis.

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What are your goals?

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What do you want to function?

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You know, now, yes.

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Maybe somebody who's really deep into

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maybe some psychosis or whatever,

their goals aren't even very clear.

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And they need

you need family to come in and say, well,

253

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you know, you know, all the chickens

in the chicken house are dying.

254

00:14:04,593 --> 00:14:05,469

Maybe we need to

255

00:14:07,096 --> 00:14:09,682

but but still it feels like you,

256

00:14:09,682 --> 00:14:13,811

that terminology

use there gives in my mind

257

00:14:13,811 --> 00:14:18,274

I automatically think of walking alongside

someone like on a journey or something.

258

00:14:18,274 --> 00:14:18,649

Yeah. Yeah.

259

00:14:18,649 --> 00:14:22,778

And you're and you're there and you're

supporting whatever that seems like

260

00:14:22,778 --> 00:14:25,781

that makes a fundamental different image

in our heads.

261

00:14:25,906 --> 00:14:28,200

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

262

00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,203

And that would be the shift from a problem

to fix

263

00:14:31,495 --> 00:14:34,498

to a situation to embrace.

264

00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:38,002

You know let's just embrace this and

265

00:14:38,002 --> 00:14:41,964

you know a crisis can be viewed

as something that

266

00:14:43,048 --> 00:14:44,466

could be given to the church.

267

00:14:44,466 --> 00:14:48,512

Like the Lord says,

hey church, this is this is your quiz.

268

00:14:49,138 --> 00:14:51,015

This is, this is what I have for you.

269

00:14:51,015 --> 00:14:53,142

How are you going to respond to this?

270

00:14:53,142 --> 00:14:56,312

This is the journey

I have for you at this time.

271

00:14:57,521 --> 00:15:02,484

So I guess that's where my my view goes.

272

00:15:02,484 --> 00:15:06,780

Another thing that the people really,

showed up a lot in the surveys

273

00:15:07,114 --> 00:15:09,575

was education.

274

00:15:09,575 --> 00:15:13,329

So, that they wish that people

275

00:15:13,329 --> 00:15:18,167

would ask them questions

about the condition in the situation

276

00:15:19,168 --> 00:15:22,296

and, and look into it and learn about it

277

00:15:22,630 --> 00:15:25,633

either experientially or,

278

00:15:26,050 --> 00:15:28,469

you know, by actually reading.

279

00:15:28,469 --> 00:15:32,681

And now I will put a little thing in there

that doesn't mean,

280

00:15:32,973 --> 00:15:35,851

oh, you know, I looked it up

and you should take, you know, Buddy’s

281

00:15:35,851 --> 00:15:38,854

magic wonder pills

because that cures autism.

282

00:15:38,854 --> 00:15:42,024

You know, that is not

what people are looking for, okay.

283

00:15:42,149 --> 00:15:47,613

But that understanding, that openness,

that curiosity that I am willing to

284

00:15:47,613 --> 00:15:50,616

come into your journey and find out

285

00:15:50,991 --> 00:15:54,453

what is what is Janet's therapy like?

286

00:15:55,287 --> 00:15:59,667

You know, I'd like to see you do

her physical therapy every day, you know.

287

00:15:59,667 --> 00:16:03,420

Or can I come along with you when you go

over to Phil Haven for your appointment?

288

00:16:04,505 --> 00:16:05,589

I'll just sit in the waiting room.

289

00:16:05,589 --> 00:16:06,674

But just so that you're.

290

00:16:06,674 --> 00:16:09,677

You know what these folks are,

291

00:16:09,718 --> 00:16:11,845

going through building context

292

00:16:11,845 --> 00:16:14,848

or something or awareness to really.

293

00:16:14,848 --> 00:16:17,226

Like a pretty base level.

294

00:16:17,226 --> 00:16:19,812

Then you'll have something to give

295

00:16:19,812 --> 00:16:22,815

and you will know what to give.

296

00:16:23,148 --> 00:16:25,818

You know, if you're

going through this journey with someone

297

00:16:25,818 --> 00:16:28,821

and you find out that, okay, well,

this is a person that really like

298

00:16:28,946 --> 00:16:32,032

they are not for medications,

they are not for doctoring.

299

00:16:32,408 --> 00:16:35,119

Well, then, you know, don't don't even

300

00:16:35,119 --> 00:16:38,330

you don't have to go down that road

with them.

301

00:16:38,580 --> 00:16:40,791

Yeah. Build the relationship first.

302

00:16:40,791 --> 00:16:43,794

Then you're in much less danger

of saying the wrong thing,

303

00:16:44,253 --> 00:16:47,256

which is really isn't

that what we're all afraid of?

304

00:16:47,464 --> 00:16:48,549

Saying the wrong thing?

305

00:16:48,549 --> 00:16:50,759

it sounds like what you're outlining here,

306

00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:53,178

is a lot more work

307

00:16:53,178 --> 00:16:56,515

or like harder to do it

because, you know, we're humans,

308

00:16:56,515 --> 00:16:59,018

we kind of like the easy path

or the shortcuts. Right.

309

00:16:59,018 --> 00:17:02,438

Where's the To-Do list

or that's the one option or the other.

310

00:17:02,438 --> 00:17:03,897

Could be perhaps.

311

00:17:03,897 --> 00:17:04,940

Oh, the stigma.

312

00:17:04,940 --> 00:17:05,441

I was like, well, we're

313

00:17:05,441 --> 00:17:08,444

just not really going to talk about that

because we don't really want to,

314

00:17:08,819 --> 00:17:10,654

you know, deal with that. Yeah.

315

00:17:10,654 --> 00:17:13,365

What you're describing sounds.

316

00:17:13,365 --> 00:17:13,657

Yeah.

317

00:17:13,657 --> 00:17:16,201

Like you take a lot of time,

you know, a lot of care,

318

00:17:16,201 --> 00:17:20,414

a lot of loving on people and so forth

and a lot of other things, obviously.

319

00:17:20,414 --> 00:17:21,165

But, Yeah.

320

00:17:21,165 --> 00:17:22,666

It sounds it sounds like.

321

00:17:22,666 --> 00:17:27,755

Yeah, it'd be you'd have to invest a lot

into this, Well and that's what I found.

322

00:17:27,755 --> 00:17:33,052

Is that significant damage has been done

because people did not take the time

323

00:17:33,510 --> 00:17:37,848

or possess the humility to truly learn

about various conditions.

324

00:17:38,140 --> 00:17:41,602

It takes determination and time

and empathy

325

00:17:42,061 --> 00:17:44,563

to enter into the challenges

faced by some of these people.

326

00:17:44,563 --> 00:17:46,190

Yeah, that makes sense.

327

00:17:46,190 --> 00:17:50,694

Chronic health issues,

mental health issues, special needs,

328

00:17:51,028 --> 00:17:53,906

financial crisis, whatever.

329

00:17:53,906 --> 00:17:59,161

We can invite speakers in on topics

we can pass around, informative books.

330

00:17:59,912 --> 00:18:01,955

We can engage in conversations.

331

00:18:02,998 --> 00:18:03,916

If I know you

332

00:18:03,916 --> 00:18:06,919

well, I, you know, I can study a topic

333

00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,963

or ask you for information you recommend.

334

00:18:11,256 --> 00:18:14,259

You know, those are all methods that

335

00:18:14,426 --> 00:18:17,012

any of us can pour

336

00:18:17,012 --> 00:18:19,598

into one another.

337

00:18:19,598 --> 00:18:21,266

So this is obviously

338

00:18:21,266 --> 00:18:24,311

a very complex and multifaceted topic.

339

00:18:24,311 --> 00:18:27,523

You know people spend their lifetimes

studying this and so forth.

340

00:18:27,523 --> 00:18:31,026

So we're never going to cover everything

right in this short episode.

341

00:18:31,026 --> 00:18:32,820

But hopefully this gives some people

342

00:18:32,820 --> 00:18:36,073

some some basic parameters,

some frameworks to kind of start with.

343

00:18:36,073 --> 00:18:39,326

And I'm, I'm hoping you know, maybe raises

344

00:18:39,326 --> 00:18:42,621

the level of awareness, you know,

to at least start asking the questions.

345

00:18:43,247 --> 00:18:47,793

So as we look at the kind of outline

of what you've presented today

346

00:18:48,210 --> 00:18:51,713

and we wrap this up, what is something

you'd like to leave with our audience?

347

00:18:52,714 --> 00:18:55,968

I guess the whole

thing kind of brought me to this place

348

00:18:55,968 --> 00:18:59,847

where I have, like, I feel like

I can speak as kind of a composite

349

00:18:59,847 --> 00:19:03,267

of all the people

that contributed to the questionnaire.

350

00:19:03,809 --> 00:19:06,520

And so to those

351

00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:10,023

who are serving people

with needs and challenges,

352

00:19:10,315 --> 00:19:14,153

what I want to say on behalf of those

353

00:19:14,153 --> 00:19:18,282

who need help, so to speak, or are seeking

assistance, is

354

00:19:18,532 --> 00:19:21,535

thank you

for being willing to walk with us.

355

00:19:22,953 --> 00:19:25,956

You are courageous

and servant hearted person,

356

00:19:26,456 --> 00:19:30,752

and even when we are in too much pain

to really express that.

357

00:19:31,211 --> 00:19:35,048

Okay, so you're remember that your folks

358

00:19:35,048 --> 00:19:38,051

are suffering

or going through a difficult time.

359

00:19:38,218 --> 00:19:41,180

Frankly, you're viewing a bag of trash.

360

00:19:41,180 --> 00:19:44,183

You are seeing my trash.

361

00:19:44,766 --> 00:19:47,436

So you need to be gracious

going into that.

362

00:19:47,436 --> 00:19:50,898

And it's appreciated

when that happens because

363

00:19:52,065 --> 00:19:53,817

we as people are going through

364

00:19:53,817 --> 00:19:56,945

a crisis, may not be able to see that

really clearly right now.

365

00:19:57,696 --> 00:19:57,988

Okay.

366

00:19:57,988 --> 00:19:59,031

And our communication

367

00:19:59,031 --> 00:20:02,492

might be suffering as a result

of everything that has happened.

368

00:20:03,076 --> 00:20:07,915

So don't take us as a project

or a problem, but as a opportunity

369

00:20:08,332 --> 00:20:11,501

for the church to grow and,

370

00:20:13,003 --> 00:20:14,588

help the church to show Christ

371

00:20:14,588 --> 00:20:17,716

in all things take us seriously.

372

00:20:18,008 --> 00:20:21,011

And if we've experienced abuse,

373

00:20:22,429 --> 00:20:24,556

that's going to complicate.

374

00:20:24,556 --> 00:20:27,643

And you can see the other the podcast

375

00:20:27,643 --> 00:20:32,397

that you did on on some of those issues,

but you have to remember

376

00:20:32,397 --> 00:20:35,609

that a person

is only going to disclose as much.

377

00:20:36,151 --> 00:20:39,613

They might just give you a little taste

to see if you're safe.

378

00:20:40,614 --> 00:20:41,156

Yeah.

379

00:20:41,156 --> 00:20:43,992

Don't react.

380

00:20:43,992 --> 00:20:45,827

Just let them. They are.

381

00:20:45,827 --> 00:20:49,706

They don't even know if I tell you

just this little bit and you overreact,

382

00:20:50,123 --> 00:20:52,125

I'm going to pull back, okay?

383

00:20:52,125 --> 00:20:54,044

And we're not going to be able

to build relationship,

384

00:20:54,044 --> 00:20:56,463

and you're not going to be able

to speak into what's going on.

385

00:20:57,631 --> 00:21:00,634

So just walk in with humility

386

00:21:00,676 --> 00:21:04,680

and open heartedness

and don't try to fix the problem.

387

00:21:05,639 --> 00:21:08,642

Concentrate on the relationship.

388

00:21:08,725 --> 00:21:11,478

So, that's that's what I kind of,

389

00:21:11,478 --> 00:21:14,982

you know, there's just a lot of damage

done and a lot of trash.

390

00:21:14,982 --> 00:21:17,985

It's messy and that there's just no way

to go around it.

391

00:21:18,735 --> 00:21:21,697

To those who are being supported

by the support teams,

392

00:21:22,155 --> 00:21:26,451

remember

that we are handling a bag of trash

393

00:21:27,035 --> 00:21:30,414

to someone who has volunteered

and has a lot of other things to do,

394

00:21:30,831 --> 00:21:33,834

but loves us

enough to be willing to help them.

395

00:21:34,084 --> 00:21:37,504

Even if they're making mistakes,

they at least have a heart to help.

396

00:21:38,755 --> 00:21:40,799

And that's hard to remember

when you yourself are hurting

397

00:21:40,799 --> 00:21:42,259

or going through that.

398

00:21:42,259 --> 00:21:45,262

We have to remember that

we're all sinful, clumsy creatures.

399

00:21:45,762 --> 00:21:46,847

And so,

400

00:21:48,557 --> 00:21:49,766

things don't just always

401

00:21:49,766 --> 00:21:52,769

click to a successful outcome.

402

00:21:53,687 --> 00:21:54,396

And that's the thing.

403

00:21:54,396 --> 00:21:58,150

We're very outcome driven as people,

you know, we gotta fix this.

404

00:21:58,150 --> 00:22:00,319

We gotta have a successful outcome.

405

00:22:00,319 --> 00:22:03,739

But if we concentrate on the journey,

we're we're better off.

406

00:22:03,989 --> 00:22:05,949

So this is messy stuff.

407

00:22:05,949 --> 00:22:07,659

And Jesus gets that.

408

00:22:07,659 --> 00:22:09,911

Jesus understands messy.

409

00:22:09,911 --> 00:22:13,623

He's not watching for certain exact

results.

410

00:22:13,874 --> 00:22:17,794

He's watching to see how we all relate

411

00:22:17,794 --> 00:22:20,756

to each other in him.

412

00:22:20,881 --> 00:22:25,594

So it isn't always pretty and

it doesn't have tidy, complete conclusions

413

00:22:26,136 --> 00:22:29,931

supporting people

like the ones in the Luke 14 banquet

414

00:22:31,016 --> 00:22:32,726

is messy and it's tricky.

415

00:22:32,726 --> 00:22:35,729

It's it's the lame, it's

the salt, it's the feeble minded.

416

00:22:35,771 --> 00:22:36,897

Okay?

417

00:22:36,897 --> 00:22:39,608

And really, we're all there at some point.

418

00:22:39,608 --> 00:22:43,737

If nothing else, at the moment we kneel

before the cross, broken by our sins.

419

00:22:44,196 --> 00:22:46,073

That's where we are.

420

00:22:46,073 --> 00:22:47,866

But we all have our days and our ways.

421

00:22:47,866 --> 00:22:49,576

So tap into that compassion.

422

00:22:51,870 --> 00:22:54,956

Tap into the redeeming source of power.

423

00:22:55,749 --> 00:22:56,917

Do you have what it takes?

424

00:22:56,917 --> 00:22:59,920

Well, if you have Christ, you do.

425

00:23:00,504 --> 00:23:00,879

Yeah.

426

00:23:00,879 --> 00:23:04,591

That's, some powerful pieces

to leave with our audience.

427

00:23:04,591 --> 00:23:07,636

I think you're giving people a lot

to think about here.

428

00:23:07,844 --> 00:23:11,264

And I really hope they can take

some pieces out of this and say

429

00:23:11,264 --> 00:23:12,933

oh yeah I should be aware of that.

430

00:23:12,933 --> 00:23:13,725

I should think about that.

431

00:23:13,725 --> 00:23:16,561

I should

I should learn more about this so I can

432

00:23:16,561 --> 00:23:19,731

I can help support

and, care for people around me.

433

00:23:19,731 --> 00:23:23,693

So I really appreciate you taking the time

to come on today, especially because,

434

00:23:23,693 --> 00:23:26,988

you know, we're talking about

a kind of a bleak and complicated topic.

435

00:23:26,988 --> 00:23:29,991

So so thank you for what you shared today.

436

00:23:30,409 --> 00:23:31,660

You're welcome. Thank you for having me.

437

00:23:33,578 --> 00:23:34,496

Thanks for listening to

438

00:23:34,496 --> 00:23:37,874

this episode with Elisabeth

on supporting those in crisis.

439

00:23:38,291 --> 00:23:39,209

If you're interested in learning

440

00:23:39,209 --> 00:23:42,254

more about this,

we interviewed Janelle Glick on Trauma

441

00:23:42,254 --> 00:23:46,383

Informed Churches, and you can find that

linked in the description down below.

442

00:23:46,425 --> 00:23:51,221

Of course, all our content is over on

our website at anabaptistperspectives.org.

443

00:23:51,471 --> 00:23:53,849

Thanks again

and we'll see you in the next episode.