And I think that is one of the pastoral strengths
of this term is it's a deeply relational term
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that, doesn't easily devolve
into kind of a mere works righteousness
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or a mere legalism,
where you're just, you know, like, okay,
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00:00:14,097 --> 00:00:17,475
like obedience to the Lord means
I do these x, y, z things.
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So if I check them off,
that means I'm obedient or loyal.
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I think that part one up, one of the strengths
is the relational dimension of that.
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Like that.
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If I'm going to know what my king wants, I have to
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be in relationship with this king continually,
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and that, the king may call call
different people to different tasks in life.
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Okay.
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So please welcome to Anabaptist perspectives.
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Matthew Bates.
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And we'll be talking about “Salvation
by Allegiance Alone” and,
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his ambitious latest book, “Beyond the Salvation
Wars”.
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So, yes. Welcome, Matthew.
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And if you would like to give.
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Yeah, just a brief introduction to yourself.
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That'd be great.
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Thank you.
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Yeah.
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So, Matthew Bates, professor of New Testament
at Northern Seminary.
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And that's a more recent gig for me.
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I jumped over to northern just this fall
after teaching for 14 years at,
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Quincy University, which is a Catholic
Franciscan university in Illinois.
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And, northern, alongside Nijay Gupta.
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And, you might recognize Scott McKnight's name.
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He was, in the position previously.
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So, excited to be at northern
as it's a better theological fit for me,
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in terms of, my own, sensibilities.
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Northern is a Baptist heritage school,
by and large, trans denominational at this point.
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I have seven children,
and married to the lovely Sarah.
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So, I'm busy with family life,
but also busy writing as,
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I've been, crafting a number of books
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along, the, themes of gospel and salvation.
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And then beyond that,
I did work on early Trinitarian ism.
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I wrote a book called The Birth of the Trinity,
and then one on, Paul's, method of interpreting
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scripture, with the terrible title,
The Hermeneutics of the Apostolic Proclamation.
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So that was some of my early career work,
that I've done.
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But, yeah.
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So, been now a professor of, scripture
or theology
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for some 15 years, and love what I do.
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So that's just the real quick, and,
of course, I'm, a disciple of Jesus.
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So that's that's pretty foundational.
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I don't want to don't want to omit that.
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So. Yeah. Thank you.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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Thank you.
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And. Yeah,
I was familiar with several people at northern.
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So when I saw you were moving there,
that also struck my interest.
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No, the other books sound fascinating as well,
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but we'll stick to the salvation
and allegiance themes.
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For this interview.
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yeah, I found your work
through listening to another podcast,
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and it helped me put some pieces together,
especially this theme, you know?
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Okay. Salvation by allegiance alone.
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That's a provocative title.
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We're gonna have to get you to explain that.
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But it helped put pieces together for me
because, you know, growing up
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in Anabaptist circles, I had access to teachers
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who had good ways of talking about faith.
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And what does it mean?
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And, you know,
it's a whole life, response to God.
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But it also had
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some of those same things that you identified
with where,
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one of your books you talked about good work
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seemed to play this role of friend and foe.
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We're supposed to have them, but
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we're ambivalent
because there's this very great danger
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is presented like, well, you gotta be very careful
that you're not trusting in your works.
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And it it could end up,
you know, discouraging, serious effort.
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And I had come across even thinking
through Hebrews and teaching that in Sunday
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school was like, okay, faith here,
but you can't separate faith. And,
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you know, an active response to God's call.
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But yeah, your ideas about
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allegiance, combining
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the beliefs and bodily action, that was,
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very helpful as a term.
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And it also helped me
think about the importance of,
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you know, confessing
Jesus as Lord, saying that publicly,
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that kind of united that,
with the idea of allegiance,
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so maybe you could introduce
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that, you know, that theme
which has been a big theme in your work.
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And I especially like to know, like,
how did you decide you're going to start
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writing about it?
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You came across, I mean, yeah, the idea
and how it became something.
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Was your writing project.
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Thank you. Yeah.
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So this is part of my own story
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I suppose as I was trying to sort these things out
was, I grew up not in Anabaptist circles,
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but in kind of just Bible church, like,
kind of non-denominational,
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fundamentalist
leaning kind of Bible church background.
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And as part of that, as you mentioned,
some of the concern within those circles
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was that we trust in
Jesus and his accomplished work
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for us, that we,
we see him as the Savior and the Lord.
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But we want to be careful with the Lord business
because we don't want
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to, like, believe
that we're saved by submitting to him as Lord.
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We need to confess him as Lord.
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But but we don't want to be confused
and think that we need to do any works, right?
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Or else we might, fall afoul
of the principle of justification by faith alone.
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So, some confusing tension around that, that I,
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you know, I was trying to sort out as,
you know, as I grew up in those circles,
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and I confess, I didn't find the, frameworks
to be very satisfying.
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But at the same time,
I was interested in other things.
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So I was studying physics and science
and doing doing completely other things.
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And, really,
it was when I took a New Testament course
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when I was in college that,
my life was changed, through this course.
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I was changed prior to that, but this course was,
you know, if we were to talk to our
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Wesleyan friends, maybe we would say, you know,
as a sort of second act of grace or something
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along those lines.
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And so that was something that, as I spent
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this intense time reading the New Testament,
it was in January term intensive course.
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So was this a three week course?
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But but I did nothing but read a New Testament,
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listen to a lecture on New Testament,
think about eat, sleep, New Testament.
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And that really, actually
kind of shook me up a bit as I
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maybe realized I didn't know how to read the Bible
very well.
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I thought I did, but I didn't really have any clue
how to read the Bible.
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And then beyond that, it kind of just awakened
the need for me to repent in my life
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in a whole bunch of ways, as I was
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kind of just really grappling
with the New Testaments, clear call to obedience,
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and to help me kind of move
out of the framework of cheap grace, perhaps,
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and, you know, and to get involved in service,
I got involved with,
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you know, serving in the inner city,
in an inner city ministry at that time.
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And, so that was a real transitional point
in my life.
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And,
it helped me then to begin to take the Bible
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seriously as a, as an intellectual project
to not just, as, something
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that's like God's word that descends from on high,
but is something that really would require
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the best of my thinking
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and the best of my historical thinking, learning
how to think in ancient categories
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and how to bridge to modern,
you know, through that, contemporary categories.
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So anyway, eventually,
I was working as an electrical engineer,
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after college and eventually went to seminary.
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And it was while
I was actually taking my first course in seminary,
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we were given the opportunity to read any books
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we wished out of, like a 50 book bibliography.
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So the professors,
it was actually a co-taught course.
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They gave us like a list of 50 books.
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They say you choose out of these 50,
anyone you want to,
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any ones you want to do, read
and do a little mini reports on or whatever.
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We had to do a little book reviews.
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So as part of that, I chose N.T.
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Wright’s “The Challenge of Jesus”.
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And it was when I was reading that that I first
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had the inklings of faith
in a more allegiance, direction.
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Right.
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In that book recounts an episode where the Jewish
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historian Josephus,
is actually leading his people.
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So Josephus is, a general of sorts in the war
against the Romans.
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Okay. and things aren't going well.
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There's a lot of factionalism. Okay.
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So he ends up having to to call some people
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to repent and to be allegiannt to him.
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And it uses the language of faith,
like the it's the same word group,
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like it's all it's
actually the adjectival title form of pistos.
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It would be the word in Greek,
but it's the same root.
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Pistis pistueo,
All of these are all related terms, right?
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In Greek.
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So whenever we talk about believing in Jesus,
having faith in Jesus, the Pistueo word group,
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and it's all interconnected, right, in Greek.
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So that got me thinking, right?
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Like what what is going on with this language of,
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you know, of faith as allegiance?
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And is there something more to that
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that could be helpful
in, in thinking through Faith works issues?
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So just kind of
just like filed in the back of my mind.
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So that's the first, part of the story.
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I have more
I could say if you want to continue to probe,
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but we'll see maybe
where you want to take us next.
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Yeah.
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I remember hearing N.T.
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Wright mention that same one somewhere
and that was clarifying.
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I also noticed in, you know,
your latest book you've added quite,
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quite a few more sources, examples having to do
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with emperors and, and so on.
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I mean maybe just,
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you know, unpack
directly a little bit more of the,
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you know, why use allegiance instead of faith and.
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Yeah.
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What that adds.
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Yeah.
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In truth, it's really just
a continuation of the story I was telling.
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So I'll maybe I'll answer that in story
form a bit.
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As I continue to do, graduate work in the New
Testament, I went to University of Notre Dame,
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where I was studying under a Lutheran scholar,
surprisingly right as you think.
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It's like a Catholic framework, which it is.
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But, there's obviously a lot of different folks.
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And I was writing on Paul's
use of the Old Testament.
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And so as part of that,
I was looking actually at an overall theory
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of Pauline scriptural interpretation,
like what we might call a Pauline hermeneutic.
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And, Paul really binds together,
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his hermeneutical statements with,
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with, with statements about the Old Testament
and about his theory of interpretation.
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It's all connected to the gospel.
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So like some of our, our,
our statements about like that
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are clearer statements
about the content of the gospel.
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Romans 1:2-4, first Corinthians 15:3-5.
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These passages, like in Romans
one two through four, Paul talks about the gospel
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being pre promised promise in advance, right.
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And through the prophets.
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And so as we're thinking about like
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as I was thinking about that more
and I was reading first Corinthians 15, right.
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Where it talks about, you know, Jesus died
for our sins in accordance with the scriptures.
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Like I was really forced
to do very close work on the gospel.
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I was working on the gospel in, in detail.
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And one of the convictions that emerged
as I worked in detail on
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it was that the gospel had mostly a royal shape.
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That it's about the Christ.
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It's about, that, that that term,
the Christ, isn't an empty signifier.
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We were so used to hearing it,
we kind of just read right past it.
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Right?
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And we just kind of see it
as an alternative way of saying, Jesus.
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But that's not that's not actually correct.
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Scholars who have really studied the term Christ
would identify it as an honorific term.
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And so, like honorifics in our society,
some honorifics might be,
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something like, doctor, like,
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on the one hand, like, that's,
there are a variety of technical
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degrees, like, you could have a PhD or an MD
or whatever it might be.
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And and you've you've accomplished,
you know, that degree.
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But if someone chooses to refer to you
as doctor so-and-so,
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that's their way of honoring your accomplishment,
right?
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It's an honorific.
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And so there were similar kinds of things
in Jesus's world.
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And, and so, yeah, one example would be
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Judas Maccabee, like, was called The Hammer
or this became a title.
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Right. The Maccabee
actually means that it means the hammer.
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And and similarly, you know, Caesar
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Augustus like, whenever,
he came to be, like, venerated.
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Right.
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By, the title of his real name is Octavian.
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But by the title, Augustus like that,
that's actually an honorific, the Augustus part.
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We just use it today
and we almost think of it as his name some more.
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A similar thing has happened with Jesus Christ.
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Or we tend to think of Christ as,
as a just an alternative way of saying Jesus.
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But when we really dive into it,
we find that it's actually a royal term,
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and that it means the Jewish king
who would arise, you know,
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in connection with the promises of David
and who who would have such an enormous importance
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that the nations would, in one way or another,
either stream to him, or he would lead them
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through his law, or that there would be
a variety of visions of this in the Old Testament.
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But it's also an honorific title.
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So coming to recognize, for instance,
like that Paul
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in first Corinthians 15 3 to 5
when he defines the gospel right?
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It's not about like
Jesus's death is about the Christ.
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Okay?
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Now Jesus is the Christ, but we have to pay
attention to that specific use of language.
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So recognizing that the gospel was royal,
that really kind of brought together
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the two things I was thinking about, like,
like like faith as allegiance.
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And on the other hand,
what does it mean to respond to the gospel then?
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It means to give loyalty to a king.
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So it was really like,
as those two kind of pieces of data
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sort of spark together
that the full blown thesis of, of kind of gospel
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allegiance
or royal allegiance model, came to fruition.
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And then, of course, I had to look
at a lot of evidence to see, is this true?
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Like, is this a valid way of, of.
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Yeah, I had to look at a lot of linguistic data.
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So yes. Anyway, that's that's the basic.
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Yeah. Very good.
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And that idea of royalty also helped a lot.
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You know, growing up,
we talked a lot about the kingdom of God.
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And the specific focus was often
on, you know, the ethical teachings
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of the sermon on the Mount
and so on, which are really good.
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But seeing that as, you know, the royal gospel
help to connect pieces because often we felt
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just a little bit of didn't know how to integrate,
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you know, the teachings of the kingdom
and then the statements about the Christ.
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So that helped.
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But speaking of the royal gospel,
how would you put the gospel in one sentence?
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Well, the quickest sentence
I would use if I was to just do
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one sentence would be Jesus is the saving king,
or Jesus is the rescuing king.
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Jesus is the forgiving king
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to some way of like I, I'm
trying to capture two ideas in that sentence.
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Like on the one hand that he's the king.
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All right, that's the basic gospel fact.
Jesus is the Christ.
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That's that's the most consistent
summary of the gospel in the New Testament.
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Look like, what's the gospel
like whenever our New Testament authors do it,
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they're going to like, say, Jesus is
the Christ is going to be their breakfast summary.
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They give I think it is important
to qualify that to describe
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what kind of king he is like,
that he's a king who brings rescue in some way.
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And so that would obviously be trying to highlight
statements like in first Corinthians 15 three
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through five where it talks about, like him dying
for our sins in accordance with the scriptures
280
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or things like that, like that in in that action,
like he's, he's in some way rescuing.
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00:15:33,933 --> 00:15:36,810
But it also would link to other models
of atonement, right.
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00:15:36,810 --> 00:15:40,773
Of him winning the victory over death and over
sin and over evil spiritual powers.
283
00:15:41,023 --> 00:15:44,860
So it kind of connects to the the Cristus
Victor model or could be connected in that way.
284
00:15:45,194 --> 00:15:50,783
So I think that's a helpful way of starting,
you know, in terms of just giving the most brief
285
00:15:50,783 --> 00:15:54,536
definition of the gospel we can,
because it really does like accomplish
286
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like the rescuing or healing dimension
of the gospel, but also like his kingship.
287
00:15:59,792 --> 00:16:03,629
And. Yeah, it goes beyond one sentence
a little bit.
288
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You've also done quite a bit of work on
what is the basic
289
00:16:06,715 --> 00:16:10,260
content of the Bible as,
Do you mean the content of the gospel?
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00:16:10,761 --> 00:16:12,513
Yeah, Yeah. The basic content of the gospel.
291
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Yeah.
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So it does go beyond the idea of Jesus
just being the Christ.
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00:16:15,724 --> 00:16:19,770
Obviously we want to fill that out with a larger
narrative and I think it's important to recognize
294
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it is a narrative. It does take a story shape.
295
00:16:22,856 --> 00:16:26,068
And the easiest way to remember
it is to remember that the story shape
296
00:16:26,068 --> 00:16:28,237
is kind of a V shaped pattern, right?
297
00:16:28,237 --> 00:16:30,489
That it's, and that insight is not new to me.
298
00:16:30,489 --> 00:16:32,741
Lots of people have described this trajectory,
right?
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00:16:32,741 --> 00:16:33,659
Where,
300
00:16:33,659 --> 00:16:37,371
if you wanted to break it into three stages,
you could maybe talk about the incarnation, you
301
00:16:37,371 --> 00:16:41,125
could talk about the crucifixion, and you could
talk about the resurrection unto enthronement.
302
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Right. Like that.
303
00:16:42,292 --> 00:16:43,669
That would be a way of kind of like
304
00:16:43,669 --> 00:16:47,381
getting the three parts like he,
Jesus begins and glory alongside the father.
305
00:16:47,673 --> 00:16:50,634
Right.
And then he's dispatched on a divine mission.
306
00:16:50,884 --> 00:16:53,846
So the father sends the son
to take on human flesh,
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and does so in a very specific promise,
fulfilling way into the line of David.
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So the incarnation is, is central
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to the gospel, and it often gets neglected.
310
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It will often in our church traditions
affirm the gospel,
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of course, affirm the incarnation, of course,
but we don't.
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We often don't see it as part of the gospel.
313
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We'll tend to focus on the cross,
which is indeed part of the gospel.
314
00:17:17,036 --> 00:17:17,369
Right?
315
00:17:17,369 --> 00:17:21,540
But, if we miss the incarnation,
we begin to miss the logic of the gospel,
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which is that Jesus is taking on human flesh
not just to die for our sins,
317
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but also to become the ideal ruler
318
00:17:29,131 --> 00:17:33,010
so that we, and also the ideal human,
so we can see what it means to be fully human,
319
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and also
320
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so that once he's crucified and raised to reign,
there is a human who's now ruling the cosmos.
321
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Jesus is like taking on human flesh.
322
00:17:41,143 --> 00:17:44,313
And so now, like, cosmos is receiving
323
00:17:44,313 --> 00:17:49,193
the proper image bearing that it was designed
to receive, as humans are made
324
00:17:49,193 --> 00:17:54,490
in God's image in order to to bear his image
correctly into creation, it's an active idea,
325
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that isn't happening until,
326
00:17:56,492 --> 00:18:00,162
at least in the full sense,
until we have the model human, the model king
327
00:18:00,370 --> 00:18:05,334
who then begins to do this,
and then we then can get united into that rule,
328
00:18:05,667 --> 00:18:09,046
by our own transformation
into the image of Christ.
329
00:18:09,338 --> 00:18:15,135
So, anyway, yeah, the full gospel involves,
obviously the idea that the father sent the son
330
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to take on human flesh, then he dies for our sins,
and according to the scriptures, he's
331
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buried, which is really talking about the
the reality of his death.
332
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Right.
333
00:18:22,559 --> 00:18:25,979
And then he's raised on the third day,
accordance with the scriptures,
334
00:18:25,979 --> 00:18:29,233
and then he's seen like he's
he's witnessed or people see him.
335
00:18:29,483 --> 00:18:33,112
And then after that, then we get the part
that I think gets gets neglected also like
336
00:18:33,278 --> 00:18:36,990
incarnation gets neglected, but enthronement
right then he's raised at the right hand
337
00:18:36,990 --> 00:18:40,828
of the father where he begins to rule,
and then the father and the son send the spirit.
338
00:18:40,911 --> 00:18:43,288
And then there will be a final judgment.
339
00:18:43,288 --> 00:18:48,877
So the sending of the spirit, right, is kind of
like connect the Trinitarian pieces to the,
340
00:18:48,919 --> 00:18:50,129
the Gospels about the father
341
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who sins the son so that the father and the son
then can send the spirit.
342
00:18:53,966 --> 00:18:55,217
Yeah. Thank you.
343
00:18:55,217 --> 00:18:57,886
That's very helpful.
344
00:18:57,886 --> 00:19:02,057
So you've talked a lot about baptism
345
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and brought in practices of baptism.
346
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In talking about this as allegiance.
347
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And you describe.
348
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Kind of the pledge
349
00:19:13,318 --> 00:19:16,947
accompanying baptism, as an oath of allegiance.
350
00:19:17,865 --> 00:19:21,076
And I'm curious about that from a couple angles.
351
00:19:21,243 --> 00:19:24,580
One is just a little bit of the details,
352
00:19:24,580 --> 00:19:27,666
like,
you know, what's our historical evidence for that?
353
00:19:27,666 --> 00:19:31,628
Do we know much about the specifics of,
354
00:19:32,546 --> 00:19:36,675
you know, what the person is saying,
as they're baptized?
355
00:19:37,342 --> 00:19:39,428
And then also,
356
00:19:39,428 --> 00:19:41,805
again, with my Anabaptist sensitivities,
357
00:19:41,805 --> 00:19:45,726
we've had lots of controversies, over,
358
00:19:46,268 --> 00:19:50,105
you know, the things that Jesus said
about not using oaths and so on.
359
00:19:50,606 --> 00:19:55,319
And so maybe a little bit on the angle,
how is the baptismal oath different than the,
360
00:19:56,195 --> 00:19:59,615
you know, when James says, don't swear by anything
361
00:19:59,615 --> 00:20:02,618
or Jesus says, don't use an oath.
362
00:20:03,702 --> 00:20:07,706
to answer your first question and then about like
kind of the historical evidence for oaths,
363
00:20:07,748 --> 00:20:11,710
actually the term sacrament term right
means oath that we,
364
00:20:12,502 --> 00:20:16,381
we get, you know, the sevenfold sacraments
in certain traditions, right.
365
00:20:16,381 --> 00:20:19,801
Like are connected to, originally to the oath
366
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kind of idea that is, is part of all this.
367
00:20:23,513 --> 00:20:25,974
So in terms of the,
368
00:20:25,974 --> 00:20:30,687
the oath language, specifically
in the New Testament, around baptism,
369
00:20:31,230 --> 00:20:35,984
we would see, for instance, that in First Peter
where Peter talks about it being a pledge,
370
00:20:36,068 --> 00:20:39,738
that your baptism is a pledge of your good
conscience, toward God,
371
00:20:39,863 --> 00:20:42,866
which I would think would also involve
toward the Christ in God.
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00:20:43,367 --> 00:20:46,411
We also see it just in the idea
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of calling upon the name of the Lord like that,
that calling upon Jesus's name in baptism.
374
00:20:51,959 --> 00:20:56,755
The name part like
it suggests, like his authoritative position,
375
00:20:56,755 --> 00:21:00,926
like those who have done studies of name language
like the name above, every name
376
00:21:00,926 --> 00:21:02,761
and all that kind of stuff. Right?
377
00:21:02,761 --> 00:21:05,889
The name part, has to do with reputation
and authority,
378
00:21:05,889 --> 00:21:10,352
especially with Jesus's reputation and authority
in the cosmic realm that he is.
379
00:21:10,686 --> 00:21:12,479
He's the highest authority overall.
380
00:21:12,479 --> 00:21:14,481
Principalities and powers.
381
00:21:14,481 --> 00:21:17,693
And so calling upon his name
then, would be our recognition
382
00:21:17,693 --> 00:21:22,030
that he is the supreme power,
to whom you owe your allegiance.
383
00:21:22,030 --> 00:21:24,032
So that language,
384
00:21:24,032 --> 00:21:28,620
you can try to trace it back into the Old
Testament, but calling upon the name of Yahweh
385
00:21:28,620 --> 00:21:32,291
in the Old Testament of the Lord, right,
is also an oath practice.
386
00:21:32,708 --> 00:21:35,711
In in, in certain contexts in the Old Testament.
387
00:21:36,003 --> 00:21:39,756
So, so we see evidence in that direction,
and then we see evidence
388
00:21:39,756 --> 00:21:44,261
from early church history, like people
like Tertullian who mention, right, that,
389
00:21:44,261 --> 00:21:48,265
that as part of the baptism,
that you made a pledge.
390
00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,518
So we, we do see evidence from it
391
00:21:51,518 --> 00:21:54,521
that this continued into early Christian history.
392
00:21:55,022 --> 00:22:00,152
So that's the basic evidence, for,
there's also a really interesting one.
393
00:22:00,152 --> 00:22:04,489
And this Allen Street,
is, Caesar in the sacrament.
394
00:22:04,489 --> 00:22:05,949
His book, helped me clarify.
395
00:22:05,949 --> 00:22:09,619
I was aware of the idea of oath
as your allegiance, as an oath.
396
00:22:09,619 --> 00:22:14,207
But he he foregrounded some of this, and, well,
I, I don't know, I'd have to dig up the reference,
397
00:22:14,207 --> 00:22:17,753
but there's a reference in acts
22 where it talks about Paul,
398
00:22:18,086 --> 00:22:21,298
baptizing, himself, probably like,
399
00:22:21,298 --> 00:22:24,301
to call upon that
and calling upon the name of the Lord.
400
00:22:24,551 --> 00:22:28,555
And, that language there seems to speak of oath.
401
00:22:28,597 --> 00:22:30,432
Probably in context.
402
00:22:30,432 --> 00:22:34,478
Anyway, there
I think is good strong evidence for this idea.
403
00:22:34,728 --> 00:22:38,231
And it connects also to Greco-Roman realities
where, troops would,
404
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:42,027
would swear their loyalty to Caesar's
or to generals
405
00:22:42,027 --> 00:22:47,157
or to a whole bunch of different kind of like,
yeah, it connects to the Greco-Roman world
406
00:22:47,157 --> 00:22:50,827
more broadly and makes sense both within
the Jewish world, the Greco-Roman world.
407
00:22:51,453 --> 00:22:54,289
Anyway, so back to your, your, your
408
00:22:54,289 --> 00:22:59,795
your second question,
which was, about, you know, kind of tension
409
00:22:59,795 --> 00:23:04,549
over that within Anabaptist circles about oaths,
I don't that's a great question.
410
00:23:04,549 --> 00:23:06,259
And I don't have a ready answer.
411
00:23:06,259 --> 00:23:11,723
I would say that, we first of all,
just need to deal with a historical reality,
412
00:23:11,723 --> 00:23:14,893
which would be that, it does seem that early
413
00:23:14,893 --> 00:23:19,815
Christians did use oath of allegiance to Jesus
and that this was considered
414
00:23:20,190 --> 00:23:23,151
part of what, what was saving, right?
415
00:23:23,151 --> 00:23:24,986
Calling upon the name of the Lord.
416
00:23:24,986 --> 00:23:26,655
And in that way. Right.
417
00:23:26,655 --> 00:23:29,658
Confessing him with the mouth, was a form of,
418
00:23:29,950 --> 00:23:32,327
I do remember that word is the homologeo.
419
00:23:32,327 --> 00:23:36,206
it is a,
it's a word that intends public confession,
420
00:23:36,206 --> 00:23:39,584
for instance,
when we have, that in Romans, you know,
421
00:23:41,169 --> 00:23:43,171
in Romans ten 9 to 10 where it talks about,
422
00:23:43,171 --> 00:23:46,341
you know, that, if you confess with your mouth,
Jesus is Lord.
423
00:23:48,051 --> 00:23:52,347
And so, yeah, I think we have to on the one hand,
424
00:23:52,347 --> 00:23:56,893
just say that's just how early Christians operated
so they didn't feel the tensions.
425
00:23:56,893 --> 00:23:57,853
We feel.
426
00:23:57,853 --> 00:24:02,441
my hunch would be that that it's
probably a slightly different register
427
00:24:02,441 --> 00:24:05,944
that whenever,
there's a concern with especially oaths,
428
00:24:06,445 --> 00:24:11,450
in the New Testament that it has to do
especially with vows and with, making vows
429
00:24:11,450 --> 00:24:16,371
toward God to fulfill certain kinds of promises
that you don't have control over.
430
00:24:16,621 --> 00:24:18,206
Like those are contingencies, right?
431
00:24:18,206 --> 00:24:22,294
If I if I in ancient Israel,
I was to swear to offer a lamb to the Lord
432
00:24:22,294 --> 00:24:23,545
or something like that, right?
433
00:24:23,545 --> 00:24:27,674
Like I, I don't have the absolute ability
to fulfill that vow.
434
00:24:27,716 --> 00:24:28,049
Right.
435
00:24:28,049 --> 00:24:33,180
I, I may find that I actually, you know, as
circumstances unfold don’t have a lamb to offer.
436
00:24:33,555 --> 00:24:36,558
Even though I had intended that
even though I'd even vowed it.
437
00:24:36,933 --> 00:24:42,314
And in so doing, if I swear, you know, by the Lord
himself that I'm going to fulfill that vow, I.
438
00:24:42,355 --> 00:24:46,526
If I if I don't fulfill that vow, subsequently,
I bring the Lord into disrepute.
439
00:24:46,985 --> 00:24:51,781
So like, it's it's a it's a concern
with slandering the name of the Lord.
440
00:24:52,073 --> 00:24:52,407
Right.
441
00:24:52,407 --> 00:24:56,036
If I, so I think it has to do
especially with the legal sphere
442
00:24:56,036 --> 00:25:02,000
and with maybe with, undertaking of vows,
would be a lot of the concern around some of that.
443
00:25:03,001 --> 00:25:05,462
And so that when we're swearing our loyalty
to King
444
00:25:05,462 --> 00:25:09,341
Jesus, of course, there is the same concern
that we may deny the Lord someday.
445
00:25:09,341 --> 00:25:14,930
And, and in so doing, we may bring the Lord's
name and offering into disrepute.
446
00:25:14,930 --> 00:25:17,933
And you'll notice
the author of Hebrews is concerned about that,
447
00:25:18,141 --> 00:25:21,228
that, those who and and Peter as well
448
00:25:21,228 --> 00:25:24,231
like that, those who have, started on the path.
449
00:25:24,231 --> 00:25:25,649
Right. Following Jesus.
450
00:25:25,649 --> 00:25:30,028
If they turn back,
then they are actually, bringing the Lord's,
451
00:25:30,070 --> 00:25:33,073
sacrifice and offering into disrepute.
452
00:25:34,241 --> 00:25:34,574
Yeah.
453
00:25:34,574 --> 00:25:37,369
I think that's helpful.
454
00:25:37,369 --> 00:25:40,372
And, I mean, one thing I thought about is
455
00:25:40,622 --> 00:25:44,834
if I'm going to make a commitment to you
about something, whatever it might be.
456
00:25:45,877 --> 00:25:49,297
And then I were to invoke
an oath on that, I'd be saying,
457
00:25:50,257 --> 00:25:51,007
you know,
458
00:25:51,007 --> 00:25:54,719
basically inviting God to judge me
if I don't fulfill this thing
459
00:25:56,054 --> 00:25:57,597
for you.
460
00:25:57,597 --> 00:26:00,559
But if I'm talking to God and committing myself
461
00:26:00,559 --> 00:26:04,563
to God, it's all, well,
there's automatically it's to God to start with.
462
00:26:04,563 --> 00:26:06,773
So it's automatically
463
00:26:06,773 --> 00:26:09,776
kind of in that oath thing in the sense of
464
00:26:10,318 --> 00:26:13,280
God will judge me if I'm not loyal.
465
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:13,530
Yeah.
466
00:26:13,530 --> 00:26:16,533
Thanks for those comments.
467
00:26:17,409 --> 00:26:18,743
And again, to come
468
00:26:18,743 --> 00:26:22,914
from a different a different angle.
469
00:26:22,998 --> 00:26:26,001
Especially where you highlight,
470
00:26:26,751 --> 00:26:31,214
you know, faith as allegiance,
submitting to the royal king,
471
00:26:32,007 --> 00:26:34,634
that involves bodily things and so on.
472
00:26:34,634 --> 00:26:39,931
And yeah, I've really appreciated
your emphasis on allegiance.
473
00:26:40,890 --> 00:26:44,019
You know, the circles I've been familiar with,
they tend to talk about obedience,
474
00:26:44,019 --> 00:26:47,022
which, closely relates.
475
00:26:47,063 --> 00:26:50,900
But one of the critiques we get,
and I think sometimes it's, it's justifiable.
476
00:26:52,527 --> 00:26:55,530
Other times it's not necessarily is that,
477
00:26:56,323 --> 00:26:58,825
you know, we're replacing the.
478
00:26:58,825 --> 00:27:02,996
Replacing a focus on God's action with moralism
479
00:27:02,996 --> 00:27:07,876
or we think kind of a flat moralism
or we have kind of our.
480
00:27:08,543 --> 00:27:11,379
You know, our code,
the obedience becomes kind of stylized.
481
00:27:11,379 --> 00:27:15,759
Here's the list of things
that we expect to qualify as obedience.
482
00:27:15,759 --> 00:27:21,348
And we think, okay, we're demonstrating our faith
because we're we're checking some of these boxes.
483
00:27:21,514 --> 00:27:24,601
And I feel that critique.
484
00:27:24,601 --> 00:27:28,396
I feel it sometimes from, you know, more Calvinist
485
00:27:28,396 --> 00:27:31,441
friends are like,
no, this is about the glory of God or whatever.
486
00:27:31,441 --> 00:27:35,070
I mean, they emphasize obedience to
if they're proper Calvinists.
487
00:27:35,487 --> 00:27:38,073
You know, but I feel that
488
00:27:38,073 --> 00:27:39,991
I don't like their way of answering the question.
489
00:27:39,991 --> 00:27:45,372
But yeah, I'm curious if you thought about that
in terms of a kind of a pastoral risk
490
00:27:45,372 --> 00:27:49,042
where we're always talking about
allegiance and it leads to.
491
00:27:50,251 --> 00:27:52,462
I don't know the wrong kind of human focus.
492
00:27:52,462 --> 00:27:53,171
sure.
493
00:27:53,171 --> 00:27:56,049
I think that's actually one of the strengths
of the allegiance model.
494
00:27:56,049 --> 00:27:59,010
Is that I think it gives biblical language
that is true.
495
00:27:59,010 --> 00:27:59,469
Like that.
496
00:27:59,469 --> 00:28:04,391
I do think that, the word pistis in Greek,
faith means many things.
497
00:28:04,391 --> 00:28:07,394
But one thing it can mean in
context is allegiance.
498
00:28:07,394 --> 00:28:10,271
And I think when we're talking
about responding to the royal gospel,
499
00:28:10,271 --> 00:28:11,898
that's the best way of summarizing.
500
00:28:11,898 --> 00:28:14,234
I mean, sometimes it means other,
sometimes it just means trust
501
00:28:14,234 --> 00:28:16,486
Sometimes it means beliefs, it's a big word, right?
502
00:28:16,486 --> 00:28:21,199
But, I do think as a way of summarizing, it's
an accurate way of summarizing to say allegiance.
503
00:28:21,616 --> 00:28:26,204
And I think that is one of the pastoral strengths
of this term is it's a deeply relational term
504
00:28:26,538 --> 00:28:31,376
that, doesn't easily devolve
into kind of a mere works righteousness
505
00:28:31,543 --> 00:28:35,338
or a mere legalism,
where you're just, you know, like, okay,
506
00:28:35,338 --> 00:28:38,717
like obedience to the Lord means
I do these x, y, z things.
507
00:28:38,717 --> 00:28:41,886
So if I check them off,
that means I'm obedient or loyal.
508
00:28:42,262 --> 00:28:46,433
I think that part one up, one of the strengths
is the relational dimension of that.
509
00:28:46,433 --> 00:28:47,392
Like that.
510
00:28:47,392 --> 00:28:51,062
If I'm going to know what my king wants, I have to
511
00:28:51,062 --> 00:28:54,357
be in relationship with this king continually,
512
00:28:54,816 --> 00:28:59,779
and that, the king may call call
different people to different tasks in life.
513
00:29:00,196 --> 00:29:07,120
It could be that, for instance, if,
if I was an apostle to, the Jews, like
514
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,290
Paul was right that God might call me to live,
515
00:29:10,331 --> 00:29:13,334
a a law, obedient life,
516
00:29:13,418 --> 00:29:16,796
in ways that other people might identify
as legalistic.
517
00:29:17,172 --> 00:29:20,300
God might call me to keep a kosher table
so that I could be
518
00:29:20,675 --> 00:29:23,470
a good apostle to those Jews.
519
00:29:23,470 --> 00:29:25,764
Do am I saved by keeping a kosher table?
520
00:29:25,764 --> 00:29:29,142
No. Does it risk confusion? Yes. Right.
521
00:29:29,392 --> 00:29:33,521
But nevertheless like to be to be allegiance
to the king
522
00:29:33,521 --> 00:29:37,734
might demand that I live a law obedient.
523
00:29:38,026 --> 00:29:40,361
It would always demand that
I fulfill the intent of the law.
524
00:29:40,361 --> 00:29:43,698
But it might demand that I live a a
what other people might perceive
525
00:29:43,698 --> 00:29:46,659
as a legalistic, kind of life.
526
00:29:47,410 --> 00:29:50,830
But also, what if I was called to be an apostle
to the Gentiles?
527
00:29:50,830 --> 00:29:51,247
Right.
528
00:29:51,247 --> 00:29:57,587
Then, such strictures may not apply to me
and may actually harm my allegiance, my mission.
529
00:29:57,587 --> 00:29:58,254
Right.
530
00:29:58,254 --> 00:30:00,965
To be allegiance to the King for one person,
531
00:30:00,965 --> 00:30:04,260
could be quite different from the other,
especially with these matters that are,
532
00:30:04,344 --> 00:30:08,348
what we might consider Adiaphora Like that
are matters of indifference, right?
533
00:30:08,348 --> 00:30:10,058
As the New Testament puts it.
534
00:30:10,058 --> 00:30:13,645
those things aren't matters of indifference
in terms of our obedience to the King.
535
00:30:13,645 --> 00:30:16,105
If we're attuned to to his voice. Right.
536
00:30:16,105 --> 00:30:20,109
It may be actually a matter of of moral failure.
537
00:30:20,109 --> 00:30:23,947
If I was to if I was called
to be an apostle to the Jews, and I shirked that
538
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,826
right by not actually being allegiance,
and being lazy about it,
539
00:30:28,201 --> 00:30:31,371
then then I'm actually in disloyalty to my king.
540
00:30:31,913 --> 00:30:35,917
So I do think it helps, actually,
with some of these,
541
00:30:36,793 --> 00:30:39,838
these challenges, these pastoral challenges
that we have faced.
542
00:30:39,838 --> 00:30:43,383
And it's not just the Anabaptists
across the tradition, especially with the
543
00:30:43,967 --> 00:30:45,635
you choose the Protestant tradition.
544
00:30:45,635 --> 00:30:50,306
There has been a struggle with how do we handle
the idea that we need to actually be obedient
545
00:30:50,306 --> 00:30:54,269
to the Lord with questions about works,
righteousness and questions about legalism?
546
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:55,895
Yeah.
547
00:30:55,895 --> 00:30:58,898
So part of the response I hear there is,
548
00:31:00,024 --> 00:31:02,777
is actually personalizing it
549
00:31:02,777 --> 00:31:05,780
and saying not only is this about,
550
00:31:05,905 --> 00:31:08,241
you know what we might call basic righteousness.
551
00:31:08,241 --> 00:31:11,244
Like don't commit adultery.
552
00:31:11,327 --> 00:31:14,581
But also these things that are specific callings
553
00:31:14,873 --> 00:31:19,460
to an individual and it's all wrapped
in that allegiance to the King.
554
00:31:20,169 --> 00:31:21,588
Yeah, yeah.
555
00:31:21,588 --> 00:31:25,633
I mean, we can think of even moral scenarios like,
you know, a Robin Hood
556
00:31:25,633 --> 00:31:29,512
like scenario where, you know,
they're in the face of gross injustice.
557
00:31:29,512 --> 00:31:33,016
You know, by the state like that,
that it would be actually,
558
00:31:33,016 --> 00:31:36,394
you know, allegiance to the king
to to work on behalf of the poor.
559
00:31:36,477 --> 00:31:39,647
You know, even if that was illegal,
it could be, that could be a calling.
560
00:31:39,647 --> 00:31:39,939
Right?
561
00:31:39,939 --> 00:31:44,944
That is an Allegiant calling to the king
that we have to navigate with our, like,
562
00:31:44,944 --> 00:31:48,823
other kinds of loyalties and statements
in the New Testament where we're called to,
563
00:31:49,073 --> 00:31:51,200
you know, to submit to the state.
564
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,453
But our higher loyalty to Jesus.
565
00:31:53,453 --> 00:31:53,745
Right.
566
00:31:53,745 --> 00:31:57,081
Like, might give us a framework
for thinking about civil disobedience.
567
00:31:57,415 --> 00:31:59,626
I do think it's a helpful term.
568
00:31:59,626 --> 00:32:03,588
And, you know, regardless of whether it's helpful
or not, it's true, which I think is,
569
00:32:03,838 --> 00:32:04,881
is the more important.
570
00:32:06,257 --> 00:32:08,092
It's the more it is pastorally useful.
571
00:32:08,092 --> 00:32:12,889
But maybe I at least my conviction is it's
pastorally useful because it's in fact true.
572
00:32:13,306 --> 00:32:18,561
So, anyway, that's a little bit
on the pastoral implications of allegiance.
573
00:32:19,437 --> 00:32:20,521
Yeah.
574
00:32:20,521 --> 00:32:22,565
Thank you.
575
00:32:22,565 --> 00:32:26,694
So, your most recent book, which just came out,
576
00:32:28,154 --> 00:32:31,532
not too long before we're recording this,
577
00:32:33,826 --> 00:32:36,204
Preordered and got the copy called
578
00:32:36,204 --> 00:32:39,207
Beyond the Salvation Wars. And.
579
00:32:41,042 --> 00:32:43,878
I don't know if you didn't
want to step into enough hot button issues before.
580
00:32:43,878 --> 00:32:44,337
You sure did.
581
00:32:44,337 --> 00:32:47,340
With this book.
582
00:32:48,299 --> 00:32:49,133
But you're bold enough
583
00:32:49,133 --> 00:32:54,180
to suggest that the gospel allegiance model,
584
00:32:54,180 --> 00:32:57,183
really gives some tools for,
585
00:32:58,142 --> 00:33:01,145
for thinking, well, and
586
00:33:01,229 --> 00:33:03,314
hopefully moving past some of the disputes
587
00:33:03,314 --> 00:33:06,317
between Protestants and Catholics.
588
00:33:06,901 --> 00:33:08,361
Yeah. Introduce us to a little.
589
00:33:08,361 --> 00:33:09,654
Introduce us to that a little bit.
590
00:33:10,738 --> 00:33:11,072
Yeah.
591
00:33:11,072 --> 00:33:16,995
So, beyond the Salvation Wars,
it was a deliberate strategy in publishing,
592
00:33:16,995 --> 00:33:21,499
this material to a degree that I wanted
to, have kind of a core model,
593
00:33:21,541 --> 00:33:27,130
where I talked about the central,
maybe the central and most
594
00:33:27,130 --> 00:33:30,967
central issues, in this whole conversation,
which is what is the gospel?
595
00:33:30,967 --> 00:33:31,634
What is faith?
596
00:33:31,634 --> 00:33:33,344
What is grace? What are works?
597
00:33:33,344 --> 00:33:34,887
And I really deal with those.
598
00:33:34,887 --> 00:33:37,932
In, the first book that you mentioned, salvation
599
00:33:37,932 --> 00:33:42,103
my allegiance alone, but even more in a second
book that followed that up called Gospel
600
00:33:42,103 --> 00:33:46,190
Allegiance, where I really get into,
some more disputed issues.
601
00:33:46,190 --> 00:33:50,236
I do more work on faith, more work on, works
602
00:33:50,445 --> 00:33:53,781
and works of the law, but especially on grace,
which I hadn't really treated yet.
603
00:33:53,781 --> 00:33:55,158
I have a whole chapter on that.
604
00:33:55,158 --> 00:33:58,119
So I wanted to kind of secure
the foundations of that.
605
00:33:58,286 --> 00:34:01,497
Those kind of core issues,
as those are often matters of debate.
606
00:34:01,789 --> 00:34:03,207
And then I wanted to apply it.
607
00:34:03,207 --> 00:34:07,420
See, like, how useful is this to maybe solving,
some other longstanding
608
00:34:07,754 --> 00:34:12,341
controversial issues in the church or not solving,
but contributing at least to the conversation.
609
00:34:12,341 --> 00:34:15,970
Right. Baptism. How is that saving? Is it right?
610
00:34:17,263 --> 00:34:18,890
Questions about regeneration.
611
00:34:18,890 --> 00:34:19,724
Does that happen?
612
00:34:19,724 --> 00:34:23,561
Like before we can even give faith as,
the reformed position
613
00:34:23,561 --> 00:34:28,399
would tend to say, or simultaneous with
or is that more a human decision?
614
00:34:28,649 --> 00:34:29,692
Right. How does that work?
615
00:34:29,692 --> 00:34:32,945
Like how like how do we how does that coordinate
616
00:34:32,945 --> 00:34:35,948
with God's grace to larger questions?
617
00:34:36,115 --> 00:34:40,578
And so, yeah, this book, the second book
is dealing with more controversial topics.
618
00:34:41,412 --> 00:34:43,956
And the idea was partly that I would be
619
00:34:43,956 --> 00:34:47,710
I was hoping that the, that, core model
would get some consensus around it.
620
00:34:47,710 --> 00:34:49,045
And people say this is true,
621
00:34:49,045 --> 00:34:52,590
or if it wasn't, then there would be opportunity
to correct untruths there.
622
00:34:53,007 --> 00:34:57,512
And then apply it to these,
these more, controversial issues.
623
00:34:58,096 --> 00:35:01,516
So it's creating some good conversation,
624
00:35:01,516 --> 00:35:05,520
so far and,
getting a really strong response to it.
625
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,981
There's been,
some very strongly positive responses
626
00:35:08,981 --> 00:35:12,777
and maybe predictably,
those who are wed to a Calvinist framework.
627
00:35:13,111 --> 00:35:18,991
The Gospel Coalition, for instance,
I had a quite honestly, a very inaccurate review,
628
00:35:19,283 --> 00:35:23,329
as they just don't
even get the facts right in the review at all.
629
00:35:24,580 --> 00:35:25,873
It's it's highly misleading
630
00:35:25,873 --> 00:35:28,918
review, but also a quite uncharitable review
in my judgment.
631
00:35:29,210 --> 00:35:32,213
But it is, it is creating some waves.
632
00:35:33,548 --> 00:35:34,757
Yeah.
633
00:35:34,757 --> 00:35:37,760
So one piece of that,
634
00:35:38,594 --> 00:35:41,597
book was you said you wanted to.
635
00:35:41,889 --> 00:35:43,933
I think you said use the word like re aim.
636
00:35:43,933 --> 00:35:47,103
The Protestant critique of, you know,
637
00:35:47,103 --> 00:35:50,106
Roman Catholic, doctrines of salvation
638
00:35:50,898 --> 00:35:52,984
and by saying, re aim,
639
00:35:52,984 --> 00:35:55,987
I took you to say, you know, there was
640
00:35:57,113 --> 00:36:00,825
something very much right about the Protestant
instinct to,
641
00:36:01,909 --> 00:36:04,912
to critique
this and something that needed to be critiqued.
642
00:36:05,163 --> 00:36:09,500
But, The classic Protestant way
of framing that in terms of how they think
643
00:36:09,500 --> 00:36:15,047
about justification by faith
and what our works of law and so on are.
644
00:36:15,923 --> 00:36:18,050
Misconstruing it a little bit and
645
00:36:19,093 --> 00:36:19,719
re aim.
646
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:22,638
So yeah, but just elaborate on that a little bit.
647
00:36:22,638 --> 00:36:23,472
Yeah. You're right.
648
00:36:23,472 --> 00:36:28,686
So, you know,
part of the project is to, to ask,
649
00:36:28,686 --> 00:36:33,024
both Catholics and Protestants
to rethink how we're talking about salvation.
650
00:36:33,024 --> 00:36:36,986
And the claim isn't here that we, like, like,
both groups are totally wrong, or that anything
651
00:36:36,986 --> 00:36:41,365
I'm saying doesn't have some sort of footprint
in the tradition somewhere.
652
00:36:41,365 --> 00:36:42,325
I want to be careful.
653
00:36:42,325 --> 00:36:43,618
Like the this is, like, perceived
654
00:36:43,618 --> 00:36:47,455
as some sort of like, you know, out of out
from left field novel project.
655
00:36:47,455 --> 00:36:50,875
It's more of like a careful reading,
hopefully, of,
656
00:36:51,250 --> 00:36:56,214
the Apostolic Witness of what the New Testament
and the early Christians, said about
657
00:36:56,214 --> 00:37:00,134
how we're saved and to, to ask Protestants
658
00:37:00,134 --> 00:37:03,137
and Catholics to consider some of their most,
659
00:37:03,471 --> 00:37:07,600
careful ways of articulating
that could be more nuanced.
660
00:37:07,975 --> 00:37:11,771
I guess, and that there are ways
to get even closer to the truth.
661
00:37:12,063 --> 00:37:18,110
So there's a very much a, a continually reforming
kind of project, for the church.
662
00:37:18,110 --> 00:37:21,489
And it's really got a long term
aim of unity for the church.
663
00:37:21,489 --> 00:37:24,659
I realize in the short term
it may just cause more squabbling.
664
00:37:25,034 --> 00:37:29,997
But in the long run,
I do hope that it, is something that will be,
665
00:37:29,997 --> 00:37:33,960
a model that doesn't solve
all the Catholic Protestant problems.
666
00:37:34,377 --> 00:37:38,673
But does offer maybe, a truer path forward,
667
00:37:38,756 --> 00:37:41,968
in some very carefully nuanced ways.
668
00:37:42,385 --> 00:37:44,845
So, yeah, it does as part of the book.
669
00:37:44,845 --> 00:37:48,599
It does walk
through, issues of justification by faith
670
00:37:49,016 --> 00:37:52,645
and one of the problems
within Protestant Protestantism.
671
00:37:52,645 --> 00:37:58,734
And speaking as a Protestant here,
in my judgment, is that, from the very beginning,
672
00:37:58,734 --> 00:38:03,906
Protestantism sort of baked into its DNA
that justification by faith
673
00:38:03,906 --> 00:38:09,120
is the heartbeat of the gospel, and by that
it was intended personal justification by faith.
674
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,957
Luther is like, like worried
that God is angry about his sins.
675
00:38:12,957 --> 00:38:14,709
He's trying to offer penance, right?
676
00:38:14,709 --> 00:38:19,463
And he finds relief when he realizes that
the righteousness that God gives is a gift, right?
677
00:38:19,463 --> 00:38:22,091
And that he's justified by faith
and by faith alone.
678
00:38:22,091 --> 00:38:25,678
And this for him, is the the definitive good news.
679
00:38:26,012 --> 00:38:29,098
The problem is,
when we look at Scripture with with
680
00:38:29,098 --> 00:38:33,436
I think was really a careful, fine tuned comb
like look with great care.
681
00:38:33,686 --> 00:38:38,065
Scripture never says that justified personal
justification by faith is part of the gospel.
682
00:38:38,482 --> 00:38:41,152
That that's just not how the Gospel is defined,
683
00:38:41,152 --> 00:38:44,155
the Gospel is a royal narrative
about what Jesus has done.
684
00:38:44,447 --> 00:38:47,450
It's not about like what we get out of the gospel
685
00:38:47,450 --> 00:38:50,494
other than like it's about what
Jesus has accomplished for the group.
686
00:38:50,703 --> 00:38:55,583
Like Jesus accomplished various things for the
whoever happens to be part of his people, right?
687
00:38:55,583 --> 00:38:57,084
He has accomplished forgiveness.
688
00:38:57,084 --> 00:38:59,879
He he has provided the means for justification.
689
00:38:59,879 --> 00:39:03,090
But the idea that we personally get it
as part of the gospel,
690
00:39:03,090 --> 00:39:06,719
I don't think actually is part of the gospel
when we read with care.
691
00:39:07,094 --> 00:39:10,139
So my project on the one hand
affirms the Protestant,
692
00:39:10,264 --> 00:39:13,893
the insight that justification by faith
is a true doctrine.
693
00:39:14,101 --> 00:39:14,727
That is true.
694
00:39:14,727 --> 00:39:15,895
We are justified by faith.
695
00:39:15,895 --> 00:39:19,231
And I think what if we speak truly
about how the Bible defines faith?
696
00:39:19,231 --> 00:39:21,567
We could even say faith alone if we if we.
697
00:39:21,567 --> 00:39:25,404
By that we mean something
that's more like holistic, like something bodily
698
00:39:25,404 --> 00:39:26,697
or like allegiance.
699
00:39:26,697 --> 00:39:27,031
Right.
700
00:39:27,031 --> 00:39:30,826
But, but at the same time, we could say that
justification is a benefit
701
00:39:30,826 --> 00:39:34,580
that comes from the gospel,
and that it's actually not part of the gospel.
702
00:39:34,580 --> 00:39:38,584
So it's partly about rearranging our,
our categories of salvation
703
00:39:38,584 --> 00:39:42,129
so that we can be even more exacting
so that we can say that it's true.
704
00:39:42,129 --> 00:39:46,217
Justification by faith is a true doctrine,
but that doesn't mean it's part of the gospel.
705
00:39:46,258 --> 00:39:50,304
It means that it's, it's connected to the gospel,
through benefit
706
00:39:50,304 --> 00:39:51,806
and through response to the gospel.
707
00:39:51,806 --> 00:39:53,849
But isn't exactly the gospel itself.
708
00:39:55,226 --> 00:39:56,268
Yeah.
709
00:39:56,268 --> 00:39:57,645
Well. And I do want to affirm.
710
00:39:57,645 --> 00:40:02,191
You said it's not intended to be novel
in the sense of it wasn't there before and
711
00:40:03,234 --> 00:40:03,484
Yeah.
712
00:40:03,484 --> 00:40:06,070
The things you're saying
definitely have that footprint.
713
00:40:06,070 --> 00:40:10,157
I mean, I think I find you doing
very good work to put them together and,
714
00:40:10,408 --> 00:40:13,411
and fill in details and so on.
715
00:40:14,745 --> 00:40:16,956
I think depending on someone's
theological background,
716
00:40:16,956 --> 00:40:19,959
they're going to feel completely novel.
717
00:40:20,042 --> 00:40:23,295
But again, I,
718
00:40:23,963 --> 00:40:28,551
I very much see it as, as building on things,
putting pieces together in ways that are,
719
00:40:29,093 --> 00:40:32,096
for at least for me, have been very helpful.
720
00:40:32,805 --> 00:40:37,184
And yeah, while we're talking about,
the Protestant critique
721
00:40:37,184 --> 00:40:40,771
and then maybe in terms
how you critique Protestantism a little bit,
722
00:40:41,313 --> 00:40:46,861
you argued for a distinction
between imputed righteousness, which is the way
723
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,323
kind of classically Protestants have talked about
724
00:40:52,116 --> 00:40:52,867
Jesus.
725
00:40:52,867 --> 00:40:55,870
Righteousness is imputed to the believer
726
00:40:56,287 --> 00:41:00,207
and argued for something different,
slightly different,
727
00:41:00,207 --> 00:41:03,210
which you term incorporated righteousness.
728
00:41:03,711 --> 00:41:04,211
Yeah.
729
00:41:04,211 --> 00:41:07,214
So, Really, I'm trying to.
730
00:41:07,756 --> 00:41:08,299
Yeah.
731
00:41:08,299 --> 00:41:12,178
Discuss, different models of how righteousness
732
00:41:12,178 --> 00:41:15,181
is felt to be possessed
by the individual believer.
733
00:41:15,431 --> 00:41:20,019
On the one hand, Catholics have favored ideas
of what we might call imparted righteousness.
734
00:41:20,060 --> 00:41:23,939
Or secondarily, they might talk about that
as infused righteousness.
735
00:41:24,356 --> 00:41:28,194
And I won't try to get into that right now,
because you kind of asked more about imputation.
736
00:41:28,694 --> 00:41:32,114
Protestants have tended to favor
ideas of imputed righteousness,
737
00:41:32,156 --> 00:41:36,076
which usually, especially
within the reformed tradition, for instance,
738
00:41:36,494 --> 00:41:39,830
have involve the ideas of Jesus
being the righteous one,
739
00:41:40,122 --> 00:41:43,250
that his active obedience
is credited to our account.
740
00:41:43,292 --> 00:41:46,003
In terms of how salvation happens.
741
00:41:46,003 --> 00:41:49,882
So the idea is, I'm not righteous,
but I need some righteousness.
742
00:41:50,049 --> 00:41:51,300
Well, how do I get it?
743
00:41:51,300 --> 00:41:55,304
Well, it's actually Jesus's own righteousness
that then is credited to my account,
744
00:41:55,638 --> 00:41:58,641
and then I am found to be righteous.
745
00:41:59,099 --> 00:42:01,936
And so the problem with imputed righteousness
746
00:42:01,936 --> 00:42:05,356
from a biblical standpoint
is that it's not how Scripture describes it.
747
00:42:05,689 --> 00:42:10,110
Scripture doesn't say that Jesus's righteousness
gets credited to my account anywhere.
748
00:42:10,528 --> 00:42:15,407
It says, instead that faith is credited
for righteousness, which is quite different.
749
00:42:15,407 --> 00:42:17,993
Right. That faith is credited for righteousness.
750
00:42:17,993 --> 00:42:20,663
And so whenever we, we
751
00:42:20,663 --> 00:42:25,125
kind of dive into that a little bit, I think that
when we see that, that allegiance is,
752
00:42:25,209 --> 00:42:29,421
is the kind of the core idea there
and might help us to see, like,
753
00:42:29,421 --> 00:42:33,300
why is it that we get right with the King
whenever we give allegiance to him?
754
00:42:33,300 --> 00:42:36,428
It's because all the benefits
that attend the gospel become ours.
755
00:42:36,428 --> 00:42:39,014
Whenever we give our loyalty to King Jesus. Right?
756
00:42:39,014 --> 00:42:41,892
That faith is credited for righteousness
because we are
757
00:42:41,892 --> 00:42:43,519
we are in right standing with the King.
758
00:42:43,519 --> 00:42:48,524
Whenever we we, we turn away from our previous
loyalties and we pledge loyalty to him.
759
00:42:49,024 --> 00:42:52,319
So a better way of modeling,
760
00:42:52,319 --> 00:42:57,491
I argue, that's more carefully
attends to Scripture would be incorporated.
761
00:42:57,491 --> 00:43:01,579
Righteousness,
and incorporated righteousness would affirm
762
00:43:01,579 --> 00:43:05,749
that, indeed, we do share in Jesus's
righteousness, but it's not through
763
00:43:05,749 --> 00:43:11,297
the metaphor of like, kind of like
us having a bankrupt personal account, like we're
764
00:43:11,297 --> 00:43:15,593
we're lacking righteousness in Jesus righteousness
kind of getting applied to that account.
765
00:43:15,968 --> 00:43:20,139
But that, that which, which kind of presupposes
a certain kind of merit framework
766
00:43:20,139 --> 00:43:24,643
that seems like it's not prominent in Paul,
that the
767
00:43:24,768 --> 00:43:28,856
that was, that was accepted by both Catholics and
Protestants during the time of the Reformation.
768
00:43:28,856 --> 00:43:31,692
They were both invested in a merit framework
like that.
769
00:43:31,692 --> 00:43:34,028
I have a certain lack in my account.
770
00:43:34,028 --> 00:43:36,614
I need that that lack taken care of.
771
00:43:36,614 --> 00:43:39,950
And it it invites us to think more
about corporate metaphors.
772
00:43:40,367 --> 00:43:42,953
That it was more often that like, for instance,
773
00:43:42,953 --> 00:43:46,665
whole peoples were enslaved
and that they were ransomed, right?
774
00:43:46,665 --> 00:43:51,211
And that they were then purchased
as a kind of corporate like transaction,
775
00:43:51,587 --> 00:43:54,632
and that then move them into a new reality,
776
00:43:55,007 --> 00:43:59,178
and that it wasn't so much about personal debt
bondage or things along those lines.
777
00:43:59,470 --> 00:44:02,431
So, incorporated righteousness fronts, the idea
778
00:44:02,431 --> 00:44:05,851
that there already exists a righteous king
and a righteous body.
779
00:44:05,851 --> 00:44:07,728
Before I come on the scene.
780
00:44:07,728 --> 00:44:11,440
Like what I'm looking for salvation
as an individual today, right?
781
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:15,235
Jesus has already actually provided it
like he's already died, right?
782
00:44:15,319 --> 00:44:18,322
He's already created a justified body,
which is this church.
783
00:44:18,697 --> 00:44:19,990
And that what it means then,
784
00:44:19,990 --> 00:44:24,119
to join that justified body means
that I declare my allegiance to King Jesus.
785
00:44:24,119 --> 00:44:29,083
And then the benefits of Jesus's kingship
then, are applied to my case.
786
00:44:29,500 --> 00:44:34,129
As I am united to that body,
I become part of that body
787
00:44:34,380 --> 00:44:37,299
that is, the justified body.
788
00:44:37,299 --> 00:44:40,552
So we're being incorporated into his benefits
789
00:44:40,552 --> 00:44:44,264
would be the best way, I think, of putting this
from a scriptural standpoint.
790
00:44:44,682 --> 00:44:48,018
So there's some, I think, some advantages
to thinking about it that way.
791
00:44:48,852 --> 00:44:53,649
And it's not that these ideas are I'm drawing
especially on Michael Byrd's work on incorporated
792
00:44:53,649 --> 00:44:58,320
righteousness and a lot of other people
who have done work on participatory frameworks.
793
00:44:58,570 --> 00:45:01,573
This is something that would be in line
with a lot of that.
794
00:45:01,782 --> 00:45:06,787
But I think that even within those participatory
frameworks, often the,
795
00:45:06,787 --> 00:45:12,334
the idea is especially on individual salvation
rather than on corporate salvation first,
796
00:45:12,584 --> 00:45:15,879
and then the individual, like kind of linking in
to that corporate salvation.
797
00:45:16,088 --> 00:45:17,172
And I'm really trying to front
798
00:45:17,172 --> 00:45:21,343
that idea of a, of there already
being a justified body that we then connect to.
799
00:45:23,804 --> 00:45:26,140
So one of the
800
00:45:26,140 --> 00:45:28,726
heartbeats that comes pretty strongly through
your book
801
00:45:28,726 --> 00:45:31,729
is the sense that
802
00:45:32,062 --> 00:45:34,732
Christians should be
803
00:45:34,732 --> 00:45:37,359
demonstrating unity
804
00:45:37,359 --> 00:45:39,653
much better than we are,
805
00:45:39,653 --> 00:45:42,114
you know, where are united in, in Jesus.
806
00:45:42,114 --> 00:45:44,158
But we have
807
00:45:44,158 --> 00:45:46,201
fractures among ourselves.
808
00:45:46,201 --> 00:45:49,580
So I just want to raise
809
00:45:49,580 --> 00:45:53,333
just a couple questions, related to that here.
810
00:45:53,333 --> 00:45:57,171
At the end, One, you mentioned in the book that
811
00:45:58,672 --> 00:46:02,718
if you were go beyond Catholics and Protestants
and talks about Eastern Orthodoxy,
812
00:46:03,385 --> 00:46:06,597
that would be an entirely separate conversation.
813
00:46:07,890 --> 00:46:12,895
Do you have any, brief
ideas of what would be involved in extending it?
814
00:46:12,895 --> 00:46:14,480
There?
815
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:16,857
You know, it's
something I do need to do more work on.
816
00:46:16,857 --> 00:46:20,652
I do some, in my book, Salvation
by Allegiance Alone,
817
00:46:20,652 --> 00:46:23,906
where I talk about bearing the image
and, talk about,
818
00:46:24,656 --> 00:46:27,409
the idea, actually, that, humans are made in
819
00:46:27,409 --> 00:46:31,205
the idol of God was the way I titled the chapter,
just to kind of shake people up a little bit.
820
00:46:31,205 --> 00:46:34,374
But it's also true like that
the word image and idol are synonyms.
821
00:46:34,833 --> 00:46:38,670
And what it means
then for an idol to be placed in the temple.
822
00:46:38,670 --> 00:46:39,004
Right.
823
00:46:39,004 --> 00:46:42,341
Was that it was imbued with, a spirit. Right.
824
00:46:42,341 --> 00:46:47,054
And that then, that was felt
to be a contact point between the divine
825
00:46:47,346 --> 00:46:53,227
and the earthly as that person
as that, that idol was imbued by the spirit.
826
00:46:53,227 --> 00:46:55,979
And it's something similar
is going on in our stories of creation. Right?
827
00:46:55,979 --> 00:46:59,775
That Adam and Eve, when God breathed into them
the breath of life, they're imbued by his spirit
828
00:47:00,067 --> 00:47:02,152
and there are idols in his temple Eden.
829
00:47:02,152 --> 00:47:06,490
In a sense, they're they're images, right,
that are that are the presence of God.
830
00:47:06,490 --> 00:47:11,245
Which means a dynamic idea, especially in the New
Testament of imaging God out into creation.
831
00:47:11,620 --> 00:47:15,082
So, eastern traditions have tended to front,
image
832
00:47:15,249 --> 00:47:18,252
theology, like very much right they’re into images.
833
00:47:18,335 --> 00:47:21,338
And so I do think there's some connection points
there.
834
00:47:21,463 --> 00:47:25,133
And then, the transformation of the image
is, is central
835
00:47:25,133 --> 00:47:29,054
to salvation in the East
so that we are becoming like King Jesus.
836
00:47:29,346 --> 00:47:30,681
I think that insight is correct.
837
00:47:30,681 --> 00:47:33,767
This has been called,
traditionally in the East, Theosis.
838
00:47:34,184 --> 00:47:36,144
I don't know if people like that term
or don't like that.
839
00:47:36,144 --> 00:47:37,855
I'm just giving you the traditional term,
840
00:47:37,855 --> 00:47:40,023
some people don't like it
because it means like becoming.
841
00:47:40,023 --> 00:47:42,985
It could be understood, be becoming God. Right?
842
00:47:42,985 --> 00:47:44,361
That's not the intent. In the East.
843
00:47:44,361 --> 00:47:46,071
The intent is becoming like God, right?
844
00:47:46,071 --> 00:47:49,366
As much as possible,
becoming to bear his image fully, which I do think
845
00:47:49,366 --> 00:47:51,493
is deeply, deeply biblical.
846
00:47:51,493 --> 00:47:55,539
And I deal with these themes in salvation
by Allegiance alone and in why the gospel?
847
00:47:55,831 --> 00:48:00,919
I deal with it especially in connection with
with glory restoration in my book Why the Gospel?
848
00:48:01,295 --> 00:48:05,007
So I have touched on these themes,
but I truthfully, I haven't been in conversation
849
00:48:05,007 --> 00:48:08,385
with eastern scholarship,
so I really haven't read the East well.
850
00:48:08,385 --> 00:48:12,639
Like or I mean, I've read some of the church
fathers, but I haven't really read contemporary
851
00:48:12,639 --> 00:48:16,768
eastern, you know, kind of theologians,
at least not in any significant way.
852
00:48:16,768 --> 00:48:19,396
I've read a few,
but not enough to be in conversation.
853
00:48:19,396 --> 00:48:21,231
So there may be work to be done in that direction.
854
00:48:21,231 --> 00:48:22,608
And I don't know what what I'll discover.
855
00:48:22,608 --> 00:48:24,484
That's, that'll be fun.
856
00:48:24,484 --> 00:48:27,487
Whenever I do get to explore that more.
857
00:48:27,905 --> 00:48:30,574
Exactly. Very good.
858
00:48:30,574 --> 00:48:32,159
Yeah. I think I'll make this one.
859
00:48:32,159 --> 00:48:36,747
The last question,
you close your book with advocating
860
00:48:36,747 --> 00:48:41,835
for open communion
as a practical step toward unity. And.
861
00:48:43,211 --> 00:48:45,589
Yeah, if you could explain why
862
00:48:45,589 --> 00:48:49,384
and maybe also relate that slightly to,
863
00:48:50,594 --> 00:48:53,305
you know, the responsibility
put on the church in some cases
864
00:48:53,305 --> 00:48:56,308
in the New Testament for excommunication?
865
00:48:56,350 --> 00:48:58,685
Yeah. I'd love to hear your thoughts there.
866
00:48:58,685 --> 00:49:00,312
yeah. It's one of the trickiest issues.
867
00:49:00,312 --> 00:49:01,605
The issue of excommunication.
868
00:49:01,605 --> 00:49:03,607
I don't know how much I can delve into that.
869
00:49:03,607 --> 00:49:08,111
As it is
a, Yeah, there's there's a lot to do with that.
870
00:49:08,528 --> 00:49:14,826
Speaking about the,
the open communion idea, is this is something
871
00:49:14,826 --> 00:49:18,413
that is actually most Protestant traditions
do practice in open communion.
872
00:49:18,705 --> 00:49:19,873
Some do not.
873
00:49:19,873 --> 00:49:23,043
And what I'm trying to, to signal towards
874
00:49:23,043 --> 00:49:26,505
or gesture towards
is that we don't need to think about,
875
00:49:27,089 --> 00:49:30,717
we don't need to think about unity
purely in terms of hierarchy.
876
00:49:30,801 --> 00:49:34,513
Sometimes that's an obstacle
or people think like, well, if we're united,
877
00:49:34,513 --> 00:49:36,765
we have to be under the same system
of church governance.
878
00:49:36,765 --> 00:49:38,892
I don't think that's true, actually.
879
00:49:38,892 --> 00:49:42,104
I think we could have quite different
ecclesial ecclesial structures.
880
00:49:42,437 --> 00:49:42,813
Right.
881
00:49:42,813 --> 00:49:47,526
And be in communion, if we indeed will
welcome one another at the Lord's Table.
882
00:49:47,859 --> 00:49:50,529
Obviously there are major obstacles to that,
right?
883
00:49:50,529 --> 00:49:55,075
As, we have memorialist traditions versus,
you know, transubstantiation
884
00:49:55,075 --> 00:49:59,413
versus real presence traditions or,
you know, Lutheran con substantiation.
885
00:49:59,413 --> 00:50:00,414
If they'll accept that term.
886
00:50:00,414 --> 00:50:03,417
We have all kinds of, of obstacles.
887
00:50:03,417 --> 00:50:08,714
But the obstacles, quite honestly, are mostly
on, Catholic, Orthodox side.
888
00:50:09,131 --> 00:50:11,341
It's they who won't have communion with us.
889
00:50:11,341 --> 00:50:13,218
Actually, we welcome them to our table
890
00:50:13,218 --> 00:50:16,555
and they will not
they will not actually, welcome us to their table.
891
00:50:16,930 --> 00:50:20,058
I do hope that progress can be made
in that direction.
892
00:50:20,058 --> 00:50:25,105
I think that it's a mistake
to to seek unit perfect unity and dogma,
893
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:28,066
as a boundary for fellowship.
894
00:50:28,066 --> 00:50:29,317
Like we in the long run.
895
00:50:29,317 --> 00:50:32,654
I do hope we have a greater unity in our
in our teachings, right?
896
00:50:32,904 --> 00:50:34,531
That eventually we will.
897
00:50:34,531 --> 00:50:39,870
But, but essentially the Catholic Church would,
anathematize those who don't affirm its dogma,
898
00:50:40,328 --> 00:50:43,331
and would not welcome them to the communion table
with some.
899
00:50:43,790 --> 00:50:45,500
There's there's some movement
toward the east there.
900
00:50:45,500 --> 00:50:47,169
And of course, that's real.
901
00:50:47,169 --> 00:50:51,339
I don't want to I'm oversimplifying,
but that's the sensibility.
902
00:50:51,673 --> 00:50:56,386
So I would like to,
like to see more, open table.
903
00:50:56,887 --> 00:51:01,016
And yeah, this, of course, gets really tricky
with excommunication issues.
904
00:51:01,016 --> 00:51:06,521
If there's somebody who is grossly,
sinning in a moral way that, or in some other way
905
00:51:06,521 --> 00:51:09,858
that needs to be rebuked, right, and corrected per
906
00:51:09,941 --> 00:51:12,944
the New Testament standards, we need to do that.
907
00:51:13,278 --> 00:51:15,989
And, one of the great difficulties
908
00:51:15,989 --> 00:51:19,034
is that, it's very hard to do that,
909
00:51:19,034 --> 00:51:22,704
I think across denominations
and things like that.
910
00:51:22,704 --> 00:51:22,954
Right.
911
00:51:22,954 --> 00:51:26,500
Like if I excommunicate somebody
in my local congregation, they can just
912
00:51:26,708 --> 00:51:28,502
walk down the street to a different one.
913
00:51:28,502 --> 00:51:32,422
So, I do think that we have a lot
of practical challenges
914
00:51:32,422 --> 00:51:36,760
with excommunication for it to be, functioning
in the way the New Testament describes.
915
00:51:38,970 --> 00:51:39,387
Yeah.
916
00:51:39,387 --> 00:51:42,682
Well, thanks a lot for joining me.
917
00:51:42,933 --> 00:51:45,936
I've enjoyed this and
918
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:48,605
Well,
thank you, Marlin. Yeah, I've enjoyed it, too.
919
00:51:48,605 --> 00:51:51,066
both your work and.
920
00:51:51,066 --> 00:51:51,274
Yeah.
921
00:51:51,274 --> 00:51:55,320
The heart the heart for God's people
that shows up in your book.
922
00:51:55,445 --> 00:51:57,906
So thank you. Well, I'm glad I.
923
00:51:57,906 --> 00:51:58,824
That is certainly true.
924
00:51:58,824 --> 00:52:03,203
I, I, I love the Lord, and I do hope this
this work does some good for the church.
925
00:52:04,913 --> 00:52:08,041
thank you for joining me for this conversation
with Professor Bates.
926
00:52:08,333 --> 00:52:13,463
I hope you have found something helpful
as you think about the gospel of the Kingdom.
927
00:52:13,964 --> 00:52:19,344
You may also be interested in an episode
I recorded a few months ago
928
00:52:19,344 --> 00:52:23,849
about the Kingdom and Paul's gospel,
where I trace
929
00:52:23,849 --> 00:52:27,561
some of the influences, that helped me
think about the gospel of the Kingdom,
930
00:52:27,727 --> 00:52:31,773
including various guests
that we've had on Anabaptist perspectives.
931
00:52:32,858 --> 00:52:35,402
And you
can find that linked in the description below.