The Deposition, Episode 4 Transcript:
“I Don’t Know Ben Brody”
By Hug House Productions
Created, directed, edited, sound designed, and produced by Wil Williams
With Elena Fernández Collins as Mark Bankston
Anne Baird as Alex Spiro
Josh Rubino as Elon Musk
C. N. Josephs as the Videographer
Wil Williams as the Court Reporter
And Zach Orsulak as Mr. Grant
Published on July 11, 2024
Episode link
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DISCLAIMER
This is not an official transcript of the Elon Musk deposition. You can find that here! All actor asides and editorializing have been marked with asterisks, e.g.:
*WIL*: (snickers)
These lines do not reflect any content in the court transcript; they are us, as people recording, laughing and making jokes as we read.
Shortened link to these transcripts: https://tinyurl.com/depo1-calmyourself
Intro
SFX: Cool, relaxed, sauntering warm-toned electric guitar and drums: “Less Jaunty” by Blue Dot Sessions.
WIL: On March 27th, 2024, Elon Musk was deposed in a libel lawsuit filed by Ben Brody, a 22-year old Jewish political science major at the University of California. When Elon Musk twote that Ben Brody could be a neo-nazi undercover federal agent in a “false flag” situation, Ben Brody was faced with so much harassment he and his family had to leave their homes.
WIL: Musk and his lawyer, Alex Spiro, attempted to retroactively make the deposition confidential. It was not.
WIL: Welcome to The Deposition, a dramatic reading of the public record transcript of Elon Musk’s deposition in full. We promise: this is really real, a real thing that happened in a real lawsuit that exists in real life, word for word – with the addition of some actor editorialization.
WIL: I don’t think you’ll blame us once you’ve listened.
WIL: You can find the official court transcript, the transcript for this episode, and more, in the show notes of this episode.
WIL: Enjoy . . . The Deposition.
Guest Promo
SFX: Jazzy, jaunty, syncopated piano: “Gretsch” by Blue Dot Sessions
WIL: The Deposition is brought to you by another podcast we think you’re gonna love: BEEF with Bridget Todd. You might know Bridget Todd from her other podcast, There Are No Girls on the Internet, or for being brilliant and funny and my hero. BEEF is such a delicious concept for a podcast: it's all about beefs between petty famous bitches. Personally, I recommend starting with the episode on Yves St. Laurent and Karl Lagerfeld, as someone who loves weird artists AND is glad that Karl Lagerfeld is dead!
SFX: [music cuts out, pauses, then resumes]
WIL: Here's the trailer for BEEF, and as always, link in the show notes.
GUEST PROMO TRANSCRIPT
Transcript courtesy of Audacious Machine Creative
Find the trailer transcript in full here!
Episode 4: “I Don't Know Ben Brody”
MR. BANKSTON: All right. So one thing I want to talk to you about is that we had mentioned before these tweets from Dr. Frensor and Matt Wallace 888. Do you remember talking about those?
MUSK: Yes.
MR. BANKSTON: Okay. I know that we're not sure — like I know that you don't have knowledge sitting here today whether or not you saw additional tweets from these people, whether you saw their profiles, so I know that's not something you have personal knowledge of today.
But what I wanted to do — well, first let me start this way: When you click a user's profile, a timeline comes up and it loads the first several tweets that they have on their page, correct?
MUSK: Yes.
MR. BANKSTON: Okay. And then you can either scroll down and you can just keep going on their tweets, right?
MUSK: You — yes.
MR. BANKSTON: Okay. But when you first load it up, it just loads the first several from, you know, the past several that they've had, right?
MUSK: The most recent, yes.
MR. BANKSTON: In chronologic order, right. Okay. So what I want to do is I know you don't know — I want to show you some tweets from that — from that timeline and you can tell me if you've seen these tweets or not. Does that sound okay? Are we able to do that?
MUSK: Yeah.
(EXHIBIT 9 ENTERED INTO THE RECORD)
MR. BANKSTON: All right. So first I want to talk about Dr. Frensor, okay? And so I want to show you the tweets that are on the timeline on the date that you saw the tweet.
So can we first bring up Tab M. Okay. Mr. Musk, this as you see is a tweet from June 25th, 2023, at 12:06 p.m., okay?
MUSK: Okay.
MR. BANKSTON: And here it says at the top, "Is this meme insensitive to Jewish persons?" And then there's a meme of the United Nations' logo that says, "Founded in 1945 to end all wars, the United Nations. The world has been at war ever since." Do you know if you saw this?
MUSK: I have not seen this.
MR. BANKSTON: Okay. Would this have triggered a red flag as to this person's credibility?
MR. SPIRO: Objection to form.
MUSK: I mean, I think it's a dubious post, but it suggests anti-Semitism.
MR. BANKSTON: Correct. So what I'm asking you though, not whether — I think we all know it reflects anti-Semitism. I'm asking does this trigger red flags as to this person's reliability?
MUSK: I would say, yes, it probably does.
MR. BANKSTON: Let's go ahead and look at Tab M.
MUSK: But if you're suggesting that in order to reply to anyone, you have to scroll through all of their posts, that would make it impossible to use the system.
MR. BANKSTON: All right. We're looking now at Tab M. We're going to mark this as — I'm sorry. I don't believe we marked that last exhibit. So Tab M, the meme we just looked at, that would be Exhibit 9, correct?
MR. GRANT: Correct.
(EXHIBIT 10 ENTERED INTO THE RECORD)
MR. BANKSTON: Correct. There we go. So this Tab N we're going to mark as Exhibit 10. This is a picture of a photoshopped meme of the president and former first lady Obama where it has a shirt that was – on Michelle Obama's shirt it says, I come in peace, and the Barack Obama T-shirt says I'm peace.
You would agree with me this is a joke based on the lie that Michelle Obama is transgender?
MUSK: I'm not sure I'd read that much into it, but it's — it's clearly — this account is not a fan of Barack Obama.
MR. BANKSTON: Would you have taken — if you had seen — first of all, have you seen this tweet? Did you see this tweet?
MUSK: No.
MR. BANKSTON: Okay. Would you have — would this have triggered a red flag as to this person's reliability?
MUSK: It would've simply I think indicated that they are a — probably not a supporter of Barack Obama.
MR. BANKSTON: Right. But would you think that they're a reasonable person who is reliable? Would that trigger any flags for you?
MUSK: Well, I think one has to give some allowance for a sense of humor and satire and parody.
MR. BANKSTON: Is that what this is to you or is this just bigotry?
MR. SPIRO: Objection. This has nothing to do with this case. And we're not going to do any more hypothetical, if you had seen these tweets, what would your reaction have been, or if you had seen this, what would in this hypothetical world.
I understand your point that if he had checked, he could have seen these things. The point has been made. It's clear. We're not doing any more questions on this.
MR. BANKSTON: So you're going to instruct him not to answer on something that you think the point is clear and is relevant? That's your —
MR. SPIRO: No, no, I don't think any of this is relevant at all.
MR. BANKSTON: Okay. So let's go ahead —
MR. SPIRO: In fact, I know it's not — I know it's not relevant and I know it's not — and it violates the Court's order. So no, I let you answer — ask a couple of questions on it simply because I know that you want to and I'm not trying to interrupt this and get this over with.
But at the same time, you're just harassing him about unrelated things and you're doing it on purpose and it has nothing to do with anything —
MR. BANKSTON: No, I'm not.
MR. SPIRO: — so we're doing — we're done on that.
MR. BANKSTON: Here's the thing. I'm going to go ahead and make this record again for the Court because, once again, I've been shut down in the relevant topic area.
I am facing a situation where I must prove certain facts which may have triggered different duties in this case. One of those is not a subjective analysis of whether the source is reliable, but an objective analysis of the source is reliable.
And if that source is unreliable, there is an arguable basis that a defendant will have to exercise greater care, and that that could reflect more actual malice if the person purposefully avoided any investigation into the credibility of an unreliable person.
I would like to establish (a) whether he has seen these tweets as though he has already said he does not know and cannot tell me what tweets from these people he has seen. And (2) I would like to establish these people are unreliable.
I understand that you're instructing the witness not to answer it, and so I will have to add that to whatever relief we're going to seek from the Court.
All right, Mr. Musk, let's go ahead and take that down.
You would agree with me that even after this suit, you're still promoting the idea that there 2 may be a conspiracy or false flag behind neo-Nazi demonstrators that we're seeing in the streets?
MUSK: I think we have to consider that that is a possibility. Do I think it is likely? No. But do I think it is impossible? I think it's also not impossible.
MR. BANKSTON: Okay. Let's take a look at Tab I. I believe we will be marking this as Exhibit 9.
MR. GRANT: 11, Mark.
MR. BANKSTON: Wow, we're getting up there.
(EXHIBIT 11 ENTERED INTO THE RECORD)
MR. BANKSTON: This is Exhibit 11. Let's go ahead and scroll out of this so you can see the whole tweet. We might need to be a little more than that. Yeah, we're going to have to go up from top to down. So I want to ask you first, do you remember in January that there was another event, another white supremacist demonstration that involved masked white supremacist protestors; do you remember that?
MUSK: I vaguely remember that — something like that.
MR. BANKSTON: Okay. So I want to go down these tweets really quick. We have first embedded in the quote tweet, I'm going to start there, with Ian Miles Cheong. All right.
He says "What's the deal with these Patriot Front guys vehicles? Their license plates are completely blank." And then we have an account called Wall Street Silver who quotes that tweet and says, "The fact that the legacy media shows zero curiosity about unmasking these guys tells us 100 percent these are federal agents or paid stooges of one of the agencies.
The media has been instructed by the FBI to just report that Patriot Front exists, white supremacy group, and don't dig any deeper." Let's go ahead and scroll down.
MUSK: Yeah, I wouldn't agree with that statement.
MR. BANKSTON: The next tweet from Wall Street Silver says, "If Patriot Front was actually a real organic white supremacy group –
*ELY*: I . . . [sighs] . . . “Organic.”
SFX: Music cuts out
*ALL*: (bursts of laughter)
*WIL*: “Organic.”
*ELY*: Mmhm. Non-GMO White Supremacy.
*ANNE*: I was gonna say the same thing!
*WIL*: This is – this is the white supremacy you get at whole foods.
*ELY*: Yeah, Whole Paycheck white supremacy.
*ANNE AND WIL*: [giggle]
*ELY*: Locally home grown. No pesticides.
*WIL*: [giggling] Free range!
*JOSH*: I mean, you say that, but if I were thinking of a supermarket where I’d get white supremacy –
*ELY*: It would be Whole Foods.
*JOSH*: Whole Foods definitely comes to mind.
*WIL*: Oh absolutely. Absolutely Ho-Fo.
*ELY*: Absolutely. Alright.
*ALL*: (clearing throats, taking breaths, preparing to go back in.)
SFX: Music resumes.
MR. BANKSTON: The next tweet from Wall Street Silver says, "If Patriot Front was actually a real organic white supremacy group, the media would be all over this story to expose every member and ruin their lives. The fact that this is not happening confirms they are feds."
Then there's a response to these tweets from you, and it says, "Seems like they should be followed and unmasked. Why doesn't the media or government care about their identities," correct?
MUSK: Yes.
MR. BANKSTON: Okay. So this I think again is reflecting the concern that you were stating earlier that you think it is a possibility, though unlikely, that these people could be involved in some sort of false flag?
*JOSH*: Oh god, he’s about to talk about the FBI.
SFX: Music cuts out
*ALL*: (bursts of laughter)
*ELY*: Everybodayyy. Pull up your panties and hold on.
*WIL*: Yup. We can do this!
SFX: Music resumes.
MUSK: Yes, and I believe — I mean the FBI has testified that there have been FBI agents in some of these — some of these demonstrations but he would not speak to the number — which specific demonstrations and how many there were. So the FBI director is on record as saying that there are at least some FBI agents that are embedded in these organizations.
MR. BANKSTON: I'm wondering — having you brought that up, are you aware of, sitting here today — or actually let me rephrase that.
Were you aware of any information as of 11 June 27th, 2023, similar information that would suggest that it has been confirmed that college students or Antifa members were impersonating white supremacist members?
MUSK: I don't know confirmed, but I think this is certainly a possibility. I mean, and my post there I think is quite reasonable, which is that we should try to find out — we should try to get to the bottom of this and we should try to figure out who these people are, and if they are neo-Nazis, we should know who they are.
MR. BANKSTON: Right.
MUSK: And there should be greater curiosity about tracking them down and understanding, you know, the role of the government here. As I mentioned, the director of the FBI has testified that there have been FBI members in a number of these events, but he will not say — he refused to answer to what degree — how many were there.
Was it one — was it one percent? Five percent? 10 percent? It's uncertain.
*ALL*: [quiet giggling]
MUSK: So I think we want to get to the bottom of this, because I think if we get to the bottom of this, we can actually — if it turns out everything — you know, that there aren't any FBI members or other government members, then we can do away with this conspiracy theory. And — but if there are an unusual number of government members present, then that bears further questioning of why there were, you know, a large number of government employees of one kind or another present at these gatherings.
SFX: Music fades out
*ELY*: He’s – he’s so close.
*WIL*: [Burst of laughter]
*JOSH*: [Chuckles]
*ELY*: [whispered] He’s so close.
*WIL AND ELY*: [unhinged laughter]
*JOSH*: [Elon Musk voice] I think before we say things, we should do research to make sure what we’re saying is true. But if we did that – If we did something like that –
*ELY*: Then how would we be corrected?
*WIL*: Yeah.
*JOSH*: [Elon Musk voice] Yeah, how could we have, um, Community Notes, which I believe is the greatest fact checking system on the planet –
*ELY*: –on the internet –
*JOSH*: [Elon Musk voice] On the internet – I would say, in the galaxy. There’s no evidence to say it’s not in the galaxy.
*WIL*: [breathless squeak laughs that continue, gaining in intensity]
*ANNE*: [Musk Voice] And, you know, we’re going to find out because that’s, yknow, the future, is space.
*WIL*: Yep.
*ANNE*: [Musk Voice] It’s SpaceX! We’re going – my company – we’re going there.
*ELY*: We’re going. We’re gonna go there.
*WIL*: Just to make sure Community Notes is still the best.
*JOSH*: [Musk Voice] Community notes could beat Thanos. Right? That’s the meme. Thanos.
*ELY*: That’s the meme.
*JOSH*: [Musk Voice] He’s funny. I’m popular.
*ELY*: That’s the meme.
*WIL AND ANNE*: [more laughter]
*ELY*: [deep sigh]
*WIL AND ANNE*: [louder laughter]
*JOSH*: I know this is just a voice recording, but I want you to know I'm wearing a leather jacket and a tee shirt.
*ALL*: [burst of laughter]
*ELY*: Impeccable.
*WIL*: I add some, just, like, too tight leather creaking in the background of this.
SFX: [No creaks added, but Ely's groan does a great job mimicking that anyway, unintentionally.]
*ELY*: [Groan] Noooo. I don't like it. Alright. HE'S SO CLOSE. Alright.
*WIL: I know.
*ALL*: (clearing throats, taking breaths, preparing to go back in.)
SFX: Music resumes.
MR. BANKSTON: And if the government and the media were uninterested in finding out who these people were, that would be concerning, wouldn't it?
MUSK: Yes, it does seem odd that the media would not want to track down who these people are.
(EXHIBIT 12 ENTERED INTO THE RECORD)
SFX: Mouse click
MR. BANKSTON: Definitely. It seems very odd. Can we bring up Tab J. All right. This is going to be Exhibit 12.
MR. BANKSTON: All right. I want to show you another tweet —
MR. SPIRO: Is this another unrelated to the tweet in the case?
MR. BANKSTON: It's not unrelated at all. It's not the same —
MR. SPIRO: We're not — we're not doing this. He's not answering this question. We're not talking about this. You're exceeding the judge's orders.
MR. BANKSTON: You can just give your instruction. All you've got to do is give your instruction. That's all you've got to do.
MR. SPIRO: He's not answering this question.
MR. BANKSTON: All right. So here we are —
MR. SPIRO: — asked about every tweet.
MUSK: I mean, it may make sense —
MR. BANKSTON: Mr. Musk, there's not a question posed to you right now.
MUSK: Okay.
SFX: Music cuts out
*ANNE AND WIL*: (fully laughing)
*ELY*: [Trying to be strong, still in Bankston voice] There's not a question posed to you right now.
*ALL*: [Burst of laughter]
*ELY*: I feel like that's the kindest way Mr. Bankston can say the words,"Shut the fuck up."
*WIL*: Shut UP!
*ALL*: [Burst of laughter]
*JOSH*: [Elon Musk voice] Okay but real quick, Mr. Bankston . . . Do you like me? Check Y or N.
*ALL*: [Burst of laughter]
*JOSH*: He gets like a little DM.
*WIL*: Yeah!
*ELY*: Jeez.
*ANNE*: He gets a little Slack — ah, a little Zoom DM.
*ELY*: "Are we friends?"
*ANNE*: The little — ah, what was it 0— the Mabel Pines, "Do you like me? Yes / definitely / absolutely"
*ALL*: [Burst of laughter]
*ELY*: Yep. That's the one. Okay.
*ALL*: (clearing throats, taking breaths, preparing to go back in.)
SFX: Music resumes.
MR. BANKSTON: There's no question posed to you right now.
I'm going to go ahead and make a record on this document because what we are looking at is a — the exact same type of event that was in this case: A group of Patriot Front white supremacists who have been rounded up and are in masks. The exact MO of the people engaged in this tweet accusing these people of not being real, of accusing the media of not removing their masks, we have Community Notes both on the tweet and Mr. Musk's tweet that say their masks actually were removed after arrest. Their names and faces —
MR. SPIRO: Can you blow this up? We can't know what you're making a record of because we can't see it.
MR. BANKSTON: Sure. J., why don't you
MUSK: I can see it.
MR. BANKSTON: Mr. Musk can see it and I can see it.
MR. SPIRO: But I'm —
*ANNE*: [breaks, laughs]
SFX: Music cuts out
*WIL*: [wheezing]
*JOSH*: [snort laugh] [tantrum voice] I'm the lawyer!
*ALL*: [burst of laughter]
*WIL*: I'm the ELDEST BOY!
*ALL*: [burst of laughter]
*ELY*: Uh huh! Mm mhm!
*ANNE*: [sad toddler uwu voice] but im da LAWYEWWW and I can't see it >:(
*ELY*: Accurate.
*JOSH*: Uwu?
*ALL*: Uwu.
*WIL*: [still laughing] I'm the lawyer!
*ALL*: [burst of laughter]
*WIL*: [still laughing, now cry laughing] Elon Musk is paying this guy so much money!
*ELY*: So much money. This man is being paid so much fucking money.
*WIL*: [sigh, and then sarcastically] Oh, that's awesome. That's awesome. Okay.
*ALL*: (clearing throats, taking breaths, preparing to go back in.)
SFX: Music resumes.
*ANNE*: I don't think I can say this line.
SFX: Music cuts out
*ALL*: [burst of laughter]
*WIL*: I BELIEVE IN YOU!
*ELY*: Uh huh. Yep. There we go.
*ALL*: [burst of laughter]
*ALL*: (clearing throats, taking breaths, preparing to go back in.)
SFX: Music resumes.
MR. SPIRO: But I'm the lawyer and I can't see it.
MR. BANKSTON: Mr. Musk, there's not any question to you. Go ahead and zoom it in because Mr. Spiro is having some trouble seeing it —
MR. SPIRO: It's just not big enough for me to see it.
MR. BANKSTON: — and you might want to scroll it over so he can see it very well
MUSK: This is a clear example of Community Notes —
MR. BANKSTON: Mr. Musk, there is not a question —
*WIL AND ANNE*: [wheeze laughing]
MUSK: Please don't interrupt me. Please don't interrupt me.
MR. BANKSTON: I am going to interrupt you, Mr. Musk, because there's not a question on the —
MR. SPIRO: You shouldn't interrupt him, Mark. He's —
MR. BANKSTON: There's not a question, Alex.
*WIL*: [wheeze laughter becoming stronger]
MR. SPIRO: Okay. He's talking so you shouldn't interrupt him —
MR. BANKSTON: But he's not — that's not responding — witnesses cannot just start talking in court.
MR. SPIRO: If you're going to yell — if you're going to yell, Mark, we're going to cut off the deposition. Mr. Musk, you can continue finishing your—
*WIL*: [wheeze laughter becoming stronger still]
MR. BANKSTON: He actually can't, Alex. He has no question posed to him.
MR. SPIRO: Actually he can. I told him he can
MR. BANKSTON: All right. So Mr. Spiro has just instructed the witness —
MR. SPIRO: I can't see the date on this — what is the date on this document? I still can't — I can't see the picture.
MR. BANKSTON: Scroll down, scroll down, scroll down.
MUSK: What is your question?
MR. BANKSTON: February 20th, 2024, just like we've been talking about, this event that happened in January 2024.
Again, I know you're not going to ask him — let him answer these questions so please just let me make my record on this document.
I'm asking him about these documents for the reasons stated above that as we have discussed, with the exact same type of event with the exact same allegations with Mr. Musk promoting the exact same types of ideas except we have Community Notes here showing that their masks were removed and the media were actually interested in their identities.
We believe that these tweets and inquiry about them is extremely relevant to the exact type of state of mind when he made the exact type of same statements about the exact same type of event.
Obviously we're being told that we're not going to be able to ask these questions. We do not feel that is proper. We will move on to the next topic.
MUSK: Ask your question.
MR. BANKSTON: No, Mr. Musk. Your attorney gets to decide —
*WIL*: [wheeze laughter returns, stronger than ever]
MR. SPIRO: No. Mr. Musk wants to answer your question. Ask your question.
MR. BANKSTON: Okay.
*WIL*: [wheeze laughter continues]
*ELY*: You doin' okay over there, buddy?
SFX: Music cuts out
*ALL*: [burst of laughter]
*WIL*: How are you guys getting through this shit?! I'm so impressed!
*ELY*: I have entered the zone.
*ANNE*: Yeah, we really just like —
*WIL*: Yeah, y'all got into a fuckin' flow state!
*ANNE*: — were in the zone. I was like, "if we break, it's all over."
*ALL*: [burst of laughter]
*ELY*: I'm just sitting here listening to Wil lose their fucking mind in the background —
*ANNE*: I knowww.
*ELY*: — and I'm just here like, "I think I need to check in."
*ALL*: [burst of laughter]
*WIL*: I'm like, crying laughing.
*ELY*: Fuckin wellness check out here.
*WIL*: This broke me.
*ELY*: That's fair.
*ALL*: [burst of laughter]
*JOSH*: [Elon Musk voice] Uh no, actually, um, I'll believe you'll find, uh, who is on second, you see.
*ELY*: That's the one. That's the one.
*WIL*: Bankston just being like, "What the fuck are you people talking about?"
*ELY*: He can't! He can't just start talking in the … !
*WIL*: This is not how court works!
*ANNE*: But I'm the lawyer! I'm the lawyer!
*ELY*: This is not how depositions work! THIS IS TEXAS!
*ANNE*: But I'm the lawyer, guys! I know!
*ELY*: Fuck!
*JOSH*: [tantrum voice] I'm the lawyer! And I can't see it!
*ELY*: Also what's the date on this document? Just like in the middle of the …
*WIL*: God, fuckin bravo, people. Holy shit. I'm in physical pain now. Ahhhh.
*ELY*: You're welcome.
*WIL*: Thank you. [wheeze scream cry laughing again] It just kept going!
*ANNE*: You wanna take it from line 9?
*ELY*: Uh, yeah.
*ALL*: (clearing throats, taking breaths, preparing to go back in.)
SFX: Music resumes.
MR. BANKSTON: Okay. So let's zoom back out so we can ask you about this. Okay. Now, let's go back up to the top tweet. And go ahead and zoom in a little bit on that top tweet so everybody can see it.
And what we have here is a person named Champagne Joshi — Joshi maybe. And let me move my window so I can see that.
He says, "Fed front. How many times have you seen a group of masked men dressed exactly the same, handcuffed where not one mask pulled off to reveal their identity."
You see in the picture below we have a bunch of masked individuals and none of them have their masks removed. Do you see that, Mr. Musk?
MUSK: Yes.
MR. BANKSTON: Okay. And now below there's a Community Note that says their masks were removed in public and their names and faces from arrest records are here. And it has a link to a news story in Spokesman.com.
Now, below that is a tweet from you. And I am going to assume I'm correct when I make this assumption that when you made this tweet, the Community Note had not yet been applied to the tweet above your tweet?
MUSK: That's correct.
MR. BANKSTON: Okay. And so after you tweeted, then Community Notes came along and corrected both you and the person who were tweeting in this case, correct?
MUSK: Yes, which is exactly what Community Notes — please let me finish my answer.
This is exactly what Community Notes is intended to do. And I'm — I am the one who has pushed Community Notes heavily on this system. It was a tiny backorder thing called Bird Watch. And I said Community Notes seems to me to have the potential to be the best fact-checking system on the internet.
And I insist that anyone be fact-checked, including myself. So there are no limits on who gets fact-checked, whether they are presidents of countries, whether they are advertisers — in fact, this has caused us to lose advertising revenue because advertisers have been community noted. I have been community noted, and the Community Notes code is all open source and the data is open source, so any third party can confirm exactly how Community Notes works.
So this is a very good example of Community Notes correcting something that — that is incorrect.
MR. BANKSTON: Now —
MUSK: And this is an example of the system working well.
MR. BANKSTON: Now, you would agree with me that everybody who saw these tweets before the notes were added, each of those people may have been provided incorrect information?
MR. SPIRO: Objection to form.
MUSK: There would have been, absent initial misimpression, however Community Notes also goes and any interaction with — if you interact at all with the post that is community noted, you're subsequently informed that a Community Note was placed on that post and you're notified about the community note.
MR. BANKSTON: You mean if I viewed the tweet, I'm given a notice?
MUSK: If you have any interaction with the tweet.
MR. BANKSTON: What does an interaction mean?
MUSK: Comment like a bookmark, a favorite, any kind of interaction.
MR. BANKSTON: So if I saw these tweets before the Community Notes and I did not like, bookmark them, or physically interact with them in some way, I'm not notified when they're corrected?
MUSK: Not — not in that case, but we also — we also post — all Community Notes are publically available so — and we have a — helpful notes so helpful notes have surfaced.
*WIL*: [wheeze laughing returns]
SFX: Music cuts out
*WIL*: Huh???
*WIL AND ANNE*: [laughing]
SFX: Music resumes.
MR. BANKSTON: But I'd have to go look for that though, right?
MUSK: You — yes, if you care about the truth, you would need to go look about it, yeah.
MR. BANKSTON: That's an interesting point. If you care about the truth, you need to go look for the truth, right? You need to make an effort; would you agree with that?
MUSK: Not much of an effort.
MR. BANKSTON: Not much of an effort? I got you.
*WIL AND ANNE*: [giggling]
MUSK: It is also the case that all the people that viewed this post, probably the vast majority of them did in fact see the note.
MR. BANKSTON: How are you able to say that? What data are you relying on to say that?
MUSK: The note is applied within a few hours, sometimes less than that —
MR. BANKSTON: How do you know that?
MUSK: That is how the notes work.
MR. BANKSTON: Wait, wait, wait. You're saying that — you're testifying that these notes appeared on these tweets within hours?
MUSK: That is — sometimes less than that.
MR. BANKSTON: And sometimes a lot more, sometimes days, right?
MUSK: Days, no. That's —
MR. BANKSTON: No? I'm wrong about that?
MUSK: Yes.
MR. BANKSTON: Okay. All right, Mr. Musk. You can take that down. Through your businesses, I presume you are familiar with the concept of due diligence?
MUSK: Yes.
MR. BANKSTON: Okay. Before making a major decision in your businesses that could affect a lot of people, you practice due diligence as a matter of principle?
MR. SPIRO: Objection to form.
MUSK: In acquiring a company? What are you talking about here?
MR. BANKSTON: No, no, no, not acquiring a company, no. I'm talking about before making a major decision in your businesses that could affect a lot of people, you practice due diligence as a matter of principle?
MUSK: Due diligence is a legal term. If — I'm not sure I understand your question, because you've conflated a legal term with something that is in the common vernacular.
MR. BANKSTON: Let's take out the legal term then. I think we can make it easier if we just take out the legal term. Before making a major decision in your business that could affect a lot of people, you take care before making those decisions. You put a lot of care into your business decisions; is that right?
MUSK: I aspire to apply the amount of care — I mean, there's only so many hours in the day. One cannot do everything, so — I'm only human. So I aspire to be diligent and accurate —
MR. BANKSTON: Okay.
MUSK: — to the best of my ability.
MR. BANKSTON: Okay.
*ELY*: [long sigh]
SFX: Music cuts out
*ALL*: (burst of laughter)
*JOSH*: Oh my god, I'm lightheaded.
*ALL*: (burst of laughter)
*ELY*: I just head my breath throughout that entire 11-14 and I was holding my breath when I said both "Okay"s.
*WIL*: Uh huh. Uh huh.
*ELY*: Because … I was gonna … laugh.
*WIL*: Uh huh.
*ALL*: (clearing throats, taking breaths, preparing to go back in.)
SFX: Music resumes.
MR. BANKSTON: And because I think you understand that when you make major decisions in your businesses, that could affect a lot of people, right?
MUSK: Of course.
MR. BANKSTON: And it's important to be very careful in decisions that affect a lot of people?
MUSK: Yes.
MR. BANKSTON: Okay. You understood in the summer of 2023 that any time you say something on Twitter, a very large number of people will see it?
MUSK: That number varies tremendously.
MR. BANKSTON: But it's always very large?
MUSK: It depends on what your definition of "very large" is. MR. BANKSTON: Would you agree me with me that say over half a million people is a pretty big group of people?
MUSK: Yes.
MR. BANKSTON: And pretty much any time you press tweet, it's going to be more than half a million people?
MR. SPIRO: Mark, you're interrupting him—
MUSK: No, that's not true.
MR. SPIRO: Mark, you're interrupting him at the end of his answers again so please don't do it.
MR. BANKSTON: So you don't think — you think there may have been times where you tweeted and half a million people — there weren't half a million views on that?
MUSK: You can look at my feed and see that that is obviously true.
MR. BANKSTON: Okay. But you would agree with me that the vast majority of the time your tweets are going to be seen by more than half a million people?
MUSK: Only if it's a primary — if I do a primary post, meaning not a reply, then certainly more than half a million people will see it.
MR. BANKSTON: A lot —
MUSK: — but as a reply, sometimes it may be 10 or 20,000. And that doesn't necessarily mean that people read it; it just means it got — it was sent to their device or their computer.
MR. BANKSTON: All right. Let's put it this way: You know that every time you press tweet, there is a reasonable possibility that a very large number of people could see it?
MUSK: Yes.
MR. BANKSTON: And you understood in the summer of 2023 that as a general concept, false information can be damaging to people and their lives?
MUSK: There is — it is certainly — it is possible for false information to be damaging to people and their lives, yes.
MR. BANKSTON: So you also knew in the summer of 2023 that any time you tweeted and that tweet contained false information about a specific individual, that there was the chance that that tweet could damage or harm them? You knew that?
MUSK: If there's — I do my best to be as accurate and truthful as possible and to seek Community Notes or other fact-checking when publishing something. It is also true that there — that newspapers print things that are false or misleading or that they fail to print things that are, in fact, true.
MR. BANKSTON: Definitely. That's a big part of my business. Absolutely you're right 1,000 percent. And I think you would agree that newspapers often don't meet their responsibilities, do they? They're not as diligent as they could be, are they?
MUSK: Newspapers I think have a fundamental flaw relative to a system like the X platform where there's not an easy way for people to rebut a statement, where there's — it's extremely easy to rebut any statement, even in the absence of Community Notes, simply by replying.
MR. BANKSTON: Sure. Let's go back to my foundation here that I want to ask you about, which is that in June 2023, you knew that if you pressed tweet on a tweet and it contained false information about a specific individual, that it was very likely, a reasonable possibility that a lot of people would see it and therefore there would be harm done to the person with false information. You knew that was a risk anytime you pressed tweet, correct?
MUSK: There's some risk that what I say is incorrect, but one has to balance that against having a chilling effect on free speech in general, which would undermine the entire foundation of our democracy.
MR. BANKSTON: Got you. So —
MUSK: And if I were to take issue with you, Mr. Bankston, that would be my concern about you.
MR. BANKSTON: Okay. I know you do. I know we have very opposite concerns that are very much in each other's face, and I understand.
What I want to know is did you think — did you think in your state of mind on June 27th, 2023, that it was allowable, it was okay for you to take a risk with false information because the alternative means restraining yourself and doing damage to the concept of free speech? Is that what you thought?
MUSK: I believe it's important to try to find the truth of things —
MR. BANKSTON: I do too.
MUSK: — and sometimes when I — in questioning things, one — I'm simply trying to find what is true at any given point in time.
MR. BANKSTON: Do you think you owed it to Ben Brody to be accurate as you could?
MR. SPIRO: Objection.
MUSK: I aspire to be accurate no matter who the person is.
MR. BANKSTON: Do you think you lived up to that duty to Ben Brody or do you think you failed him?
MUSK: I don't think — I don't think — I don't think he has been meaningfully harmed by this.
MR. BANKSTON: Wow. Okay. Let's put up Tab L. Hold on. Actually take that down for a second.
MR. BANKSTON: Why don't you think Ben Brody has been meaningfully harmed by this?
MR. SPIRO: Yeah, the harm to Ben Brody, how is that relevant to —
MR. BANKSTON: No.
SFX: Music cuts out
*WIL*: [laughter]
*ALL*: [laughter]
*ANNE*: Yeah, how is that relevant to this case?
*WIL*: Sorry! [continuous cry laughing]
*JOSH*: How is the subject of this case relevant to the —
*JOSH AND ELY*: — the subject of this case?
*ANNE*: Yeah how's the harm to the subject of this case, the person who's suing us — I'm not sure that's relevant?
*WIL*: This is a real guy.
*ELY*: I love how he, how Bankston just interrupts with, "No."
*ALL*: [laughter]
*WIL*: Yeah! No.
*ELY*: Bless this man.
*WIL:* Bless this man.
*ANNE*: No, no, honey. No, no.
*ALL*: (clearing throats, taking breaths, preparing to go back in.)
SFX: Music resumes.
MR. SPIRO: Yeah, the harm to Ben Brody, how is that relevant to —
MR. BANKSTON: No. He might have some really malicious ideas coming out from him right now about this. I need to know what his feelings about Ben Brody are.
Why do you think Ben Brody —
MR. SPIRO: What is your — which category is this under and how is this relevant?
MR. BANKSTON: His state of mind. Does he have ill will towards Ben Brody.
MR. SPIRO: You can answer that. Do you have any ill will toward Ben Brody? You can answer that question.
MR. BANKSTON: Well, then I think — no, I want him to answer my question.
MUSK: I have — I have no ill will to Ben Brody. I don't know Ben Brody —
MR. BANKSTON: Okay.
MUSK: — and I have no ill will to him. I do seek to — I mean, my goal is simply to have the X platform be the best source of truth on the internet. And when you try to figure out the truth of things, you — there's a debate. That debate, you know, goes one way or the other, but it is a vigorous debate.
There is — there are a number of replies to — you make a statement, people will reply and reply immediately. This is the advantage — fundamental advantage relative to the legacy newspapers where — you can say whatever you want but — and people can immediately rebut that and then Community Notes can attach a correction to your original post.
I think this is what enables the X platform to have the potential to be — and I think is the — the most accurate, timely, and truthful place on the internet.
SFX: Music cuts out
*ANNE*: [noise of disgust]
*ANNE AND WIL*: [giggling]
*ELY*: I'm just gonna let that sit there a minute.
*ALL*: [laughter]
*JOSH*: Need an antacid.
*ALL*: [laughter]
*ALL*: (clearing throats, taking breaths, preparing to go back in.)
SFX: Music resumes.
MR. BANKSTON: Tell me why you said you don't think Ben Brody was harmed.
MR. SPIRO: No, no, no. Why — whether he was ultimately harmed or not or what his damages are and things like that is not relevant. He's not going to get into that. You can move on. I'm instructing him not to answer.
MR. BANKSTON: Okay. So, again, I want to know, Mr. Musk seems to have personal feelings about Ben Brody and whether he's been harmed or not. And in fact, seems to have the affirmative belief that he has not been meaningfully harmed, which tells me that Mr. Musk may know something more about Ben Brody than I think he does, because I don't think he knows anything about Ben Brody. And so I want to ask him why do you not think he has been meaningfully harmed.
MR. SPIRO: Yeah. Again —
MR. BANKSTON: If he possesses that information, I'm definitely entitled to know.
MR. SPIRO: Okay. Well, I definitely think you're wrong and you're trying to backdoor everything and you know that and so you can move on.
MR. BANKSTON: Okay. You're not going to answer that, Mr. Musk? Are you going to —
MR. SPIRO: He's not answering that. He's not —
MR. BANKSTON: I didn't ask you anything.
MR. SPIRO: You know that he doesn't know anything about Ben Brody and he already told you he doesn't think he's been harmed.
MR. BANKSTON: I don't know that. Wait, hold on —
MR. SPIRO: You teased him — you just said it into the record. You teased out the fact that he doesn't have any ill will towards him. That's that.
MR. BANKSTON: No. I'm at an impasse because I have two contradictory answers. I have Mr. Musk saying he doesn't know anything about Ben Brody, and I have Mr. Musk testifying under oath that Ben Brody was not meaningfully harmed. Those two things don't go together so I've got to figure out —
MR. SPIRO: We disagree, but if Mr. Musk wants to explain why they're not inconsistent if you don't — if you genuinely don't understand that, he can explain why those aren't inconsistent. I don't think — I think this is nonsense and you know it, but that's fine.
MUSK: People are attacked all the time in the media, online media, social media, but it is rare that that actually has a meaningful negative impact on their life.
MR. BANKSTON: Okay. Let's go to Tab L.
MR. BANKSTON: I want to show you another tweet that you tweeted on June 27th, all right, just after you tweeted about Ben Brody. And this tweet has somebody who is named — hold on — this is a tweet from somebody named Ava Fox Claudis Nero's Legion. That says a quote from Dale Carnegie, 99 times out of 100, people don't criticize themselves for anything, no matter how wrong it might be maybe.
And then you replied "Always err on the side of internalizing —" "always err on the side of internalizing responsibility." Do you see that?
MUSK: Yes.
MR. BANKSTON: All right. Is that — would you consider that you were being truthful here in terms of that being something you believe; is that right?
MUSK: Yes, I think one should err on the side of internalizing responsibility.
MR. BANKSTON: All right. So to bring it back to Ben Brody, do you think that maybe you acted recklessly and should acknowledge responsibility for that?
MUSK: Are you referring to — which post are you referring to?
MR. BANKSTON: To the post you made about Ben Brody. When you said based off of Dr. Frensor and Matt Wallace, when you said "It looks like one of the college students who wants to join the government." Do you think you have any sense of acting recklessly or need to take responsibility for that?
MR. SPIRO: Objection. He already answered — he already answered this question. You can't backdoor it through some unrelated tweet when the judge told you which tweets were at issue.
MR. BANKSTON: Wait. Where does the —
MR. SPIRO: I don't understand why you're doing this. You're just wasting everybody's time.
MR. BANKSTON: I'm sorry. Where is this — if you have it, please send it to me. Do you have a list of the tweets that I'm allowed to talk about?
MR. SPIRO: Yes, there — it's in the order — the order said — that it refers to tweets on a certain day and a certain time. It's not — if the order —
THE REPORTER: Mr. Spiro, your internet is cutting in and out.
MR. SPIRO: Can you hear me now?
THE REPORTER: Yes, sir.
MR. SPIRO: Okay. Yes, the order does refer to certain tweets within a time frame relating to — this is in topic two, so the way I read the order and the spirit of this was not for you to have a free-for-all into every tweet Mr. Musk made or saw.
Your case is based on one tweet where he says "looks like."
MR. BANKSTON: Right. So here I am asking about another tweet on the same day about Mr. Musk's state of mind on that very day.
And your state of mind, Mr. Musk, on that very day was that a person should always err on the side of internalizing responsibility. That was your state of mind on June 27th, 2023?
MUSK: That is a general principle that I believe in.
MR. BANKSTON: All right. Mr. Musk, I don't have anything more for you today.
MR. SPIRO: Okay. Thank you.
THE REPORTER: Mr. Spiro, I need to have you say on the record whether you want a copy of the transcript.
MR. SPIRO: Yes, and please mark it confidential.
MR. BANKSTON: I'm sorry. What? There's no PO in this case.
MR. SPIRO: We're asking for it to be deemed marked confidential until we address —
MR. BANKSTON: Under what authority? No. There's no PO.
MR. SPIRO: Well, that's what I'm asking for. You want to release it —
MR. BANKSTON: Then you need to move — you need to move for a PO. I don't — no —
MR. SPIRO: Okay. Then we will move for a PO.
MR. BANKSTON: Right. Over discovery that's already happened?
MR. SPIRO: Yeah. Okay.
MR. BANKSTON: I'm absolutely positive there's not —
MR. SPIRO: I'm asking — Mark, don't interrupt me, okay? Mark, don't interrupt me.
MR. BANKSTON: All right.
MR. SPIRO: I'm asking that this transcript be marked as confidential. That's what I'm asking for, okay?
MR. BANKSTON: I don't agree.
THE REPORTER: Mr. Spiro —
MR. BANKSTON: Yeah, he jumped off the record, but we're not off the record yet.
THE REPORTER: I need to find out if Mr. Musk wanted to read and sign his transcript.
MR. BANKSTON: Well, we're not going to find that out either because he just left.
I do need to make a record on what just happened for the Court. Parties must obviously move for a protective order over discovery before it occurs. I am in no way bound to treat anything confidential.
There is no confidential order in place. There is a method in which to do that.
Attorneys from Quinn Emanuel should know very well how to do that. In fact, even Alex Jones' attorneys knew how to do that.
SFX: Music cuts out
*ALL*: (burst of laughter)
*WIL*: Yeah, even Alex Jones's lawyers who accidentally gave them fucking everything!
*ELY*: Yup.
*JOSH*: [groaning] Oh my god.
*ELY*: Those guys. Those are the ones.
*ALL*: (clearing throats, taking breaths, preparing to go back in.)
SFX: Music resumes.
BANKSTON: Apart from that, there's not a single trade secret or anything confidential ever mentioned anywhere throughout this deposition. I'm very concerned that Mr. Spiro, a non-Texas lawyer who is — came to this deposition to practice law in violation of Texas law with no pro hac admission completely shut down many segments of the deposition, issued several instructions not to answer that were wholly inappropriate, completely interrupted and made objections outside of Rule 199.5. And then at the end of the deposition demands that it be treated confidential.
Mr. Spiro is clearly not following any of the procedures that would need to happen here. Given what he's said, we will not discuss what happened here in this deposition with third parties until we talk to the Court about it obviously. But we will make sure for the record — we do not see any method on which to designate things as confidential, so we don't — we don't recognize that request as anything valid.
If they want to pursue a Rule 76 at a future time, I mean, I guess they're welcome to try to do that. But, again, just to state for the record, we are not — we are not under protective order. We have no obligation to abide by any confidentiality, and we reject wholeheartedly Mr. Spiro's unilateral attempts to place us under some sort of legal obligation. We do not recognize it whatsoever. And with that, we conclude the deposition today.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes the deposition at 3:19 p.m.
SFX: Music cuts out
*ALL*: [sounds of celebration — someone's class is also clinking with ice, probably a celebratory drink. my bet is on that being Anne.]
*WIL*: Yay! We did it! We fought through it!
*ELY*: Y'all…
*WIL*: Thank you all, thank you all. This has been …
*ANNE*: Frankly, a nightmare.
*WIL*: It's been.
*ALL*: [laughter]
*ELY*: Frankly, it's been terrible.
SFX: Fade out on laughter from all.
Outro
SFX: Cool, relaxed, sauntering warm-toned electric guitar and drums: “Less Jaunty” by Blue Dot Sessions.
WIL: The Deposition is made by Hug House Productions. You can find our work at Hug House dot Productions. Our showrunner, director, and editor is Wil Williams, who also plays the Court Reporter, and also is me. Sam Bankston is played by Elena Fernández Collins. Alex Spiro is played by Anne Baird. Elon Musk is played by Josh Rubino. The videographer is played by C. N. Josephs. Mr. Grant is played by Zach Orsulak. Music by Blue Dot Sessions. Justice for Ben Brody.
WIL: Please don’t sue us.