Hi and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction. This is your host Dr. G and our music is written and produced by Mike Sullivan. Today we have a repeat guest from the Humane Society of the United States, Shalimar Oliver. Welcome back, Shal. So happy to have you here.

Yep, good to see you as always.

So you don't need a ton of introduction because you were here before and you gave us the rundown on everything about you, but you want to give people just an idea of what your job is currently at HSUS.

Yes. Um, I'm one of our animal crimes managers for the rescue team with HSUS. And so in our roles and functions, we work directly with different enforcement officials, the local state federal levels, um, basically to help them with their animal crimes cases and kind of just. Ashton, how we can help them either provide some resources, any consultation or case guidance all the way up to like those full scale deployments that you yourself have been a part of with us at times. So, uh, any way that we can help support the work they're doing with animals. So,

and that's what we kind of talked about last time was about the large scale cases. And this topic kind of somewhat goes along with that because we're going to be talking about puppy mills. Which I hate puppy mills and we're going to go into all the reasons why, why I hate puppy mills and why they should not exist. But I think that, you know, we're here to educate people. So, and I don't think that, that most, most members of the community have a good understanding about what a puppy mill actually is. So do you want to tell people what is a puppy mill?

Yeah, so, I mean, the puppy mode, there's no finite definition, like, there's nothing that you could look up, you know, specifically in a dictionary, but what we kind of describe them as are these large scale breeding operations where basically you think of it's these You know, quantity versus quality of the dog where the focus is kind of on supplying and demand, and it's more of a business for profit. And so in these conditions, you see the quantity exceed the quality. So therefore, in producing, pumping out all these puppies will all of these breeder dogs, you see the conditions and the welfare conditions of the dogs just decline. So, um, not just environmental issues, but health issues as well. And so, you know, it can be based anywhere. There's people that have this kind of assumption of, you know. Location wise, what it should look like geographically where they should be, but at the end of the day, it could be, you know, in a basement. It could be on a farm. It could be in a warehouse situation. So there's no real, um, you know, location that specifically that these operations can be set up.

And people, you know, we think about also the term as far as backyard breeders, and there's a little bit of a difference between backyard breeders and puppy mills. So what would those differences be?

They can fall under like that same category, right? Because they're they're all breeding. Um, but, you know, with the backyard breeding operation population wise, certainly, you might see something smaller, um, but you're going to see, like, more of a disregard. You can also these are some of the dogs or breeds rather that we see flooding our local shelters and, um. That in itself too, uh, as a back, as backyard breeders, they're out to make kind of the quick buck, uh, versus your larger scale operations that they're dealing with a lot more money at hand too. Um, but yeah, the conditions, the breeds, um, they can still, again, fall under the umbrella of this breeding operation, but the, uh, there's a lot more kind of disregard and, uh, it is a little bit of, can be a smaller scale situation, so it depends.

So at a federal level, the Animal Welfare Act determines the conditions in which these high volume breeders are supposed to have these animals because they're considered agriculture. Um, so can you talk about like the regulation of these puppy mills, uh, through the government?

Yeah, I mean, the AWA, these, it's basic, right? It's, you know, bare minimum standards of care. And when we say bare, it's, it's, you know. Uh, just bones. There's a lot more that could be built off those guidelines, but, you know, uh, we've got something, something's better than nothing. And so the a w a with those guidelines, um, federally speaking, this is a regulation through the U ss d A. So if somebody is breeding, let's say I'm a dog breeder, um, there's requirements that I have to meet in order to be required to have a federal license. So I have to have more than five breeding females that I'm using and sell sight unseen, sell pet stores and things like that. So then the USDA says, well, you need a federal license. Um, but, you know, again, that in itself isn't a lot and, you know, you have your, you have to meet the inspection requirements when they come out to inspect the facility. Uh, but we know, you know, unfortunately, it's not happening as often as we'd like. We know that resources are also thin. Um. And so the inspections aren't happening as often as they should. And then if there's violations, how are they being noted and documented? And are they being reported to law enforcement? Unfortunately, not often, not as often as they should be. And so it's oversight. We're glad there's a layer of oversight and regulation, but is it, you know, Adequate? Not yet, not yet, but it's something. Um, and so that's the, the federal layer through the USDA, um, if I have to get that license, so.

Yeah, one of the issues that I have seen with that is, uh, for, for example, there was a, There was a breeder that was cited by the USDA because they had a dog that was very, very sick. So they told them that they needed to remove that dog from their breeding operation. So all they did was they got rid of the dog and they gave it to a rescue. And then the dog eventually died because it was so sick. But then as far as the USDA, when they come back, the dog has been removed. So in theory. They are complying with the requirements, but it's not a, it's not a good deal for, for these animals. Um, the other issue that I see as a veterinarian is that these operations do not need to be evaluated too frequently. Like some of them are only about once a year. Is that right?

Yeah. It's usually an annual inspection. And then after that, sometimes it can only be. It's supposed to be annually, but then what we've seen in history with records is sometimes it goes longer than that and might actually wait until there is a complaint filed with the USDA and that gets them back out there. So, it's not as often as it should be, but even once a year, you know, you have to think about what that looks like. That is, you know, one sliver of a moment in time for all of those dogs. And, uh, especially when you're talking about like an announced inspection. You're giving them this heads up to hide things, you know, granted great that makes them kind of, uh, you know, it hits them in the tail end to hurry up and clean things up. But then what's what's disappearing and what's being hidden, given away, you know, who knows, and that's that's kind of the terrifying thing like you just said with that example of where did that dog go? Um, where do these sick puppies go that you see a follow up inspection. And problem solved because they complied and the animals are gone, but where some situations they are required to keep records like sales records and things like that. But, you know, there's again, a real oversight. It might get documented. Is there kind of any punishment reprimand consequence?

And are these, are these inspections available to people that want to look into them to the public?

Yes, yes. Thankfully, one big bonus is that there is a search tool online for anybody to access. So you can go onto the USDA's website and look up under their search tool and basically get a hold of any of the inspection reports. You can just type in, it'll, you know, lead you to the section that you can put in the state. Um, the city, if you have the name of the kennel or the person, it's an easy search function, but it'll pull up their inspection reports. So you can freely see it's actually, you know, anyone has access to it. Um, and you know, we even obviously access it too, when we're looking at somebody, because a lot of the times there's things that are noted. And no one else has ever been advised of those issues and those violations, so, um, it can be quite terrifying when you see repeated violations, uh, from multiple inspections, uh, spanning over years of time, what's been done about it? You're documenting it, but you're not doing anything about it.

Now, you guys do have a way of documenting, right? You keep track of, like, the, the hundred worst ones every year. So, do you want to tell people about that report?

Yeah, so we, um, HSUS, we have an incredible team that I've worked with, uh, frequently over the last few years that I've been here. We have a Stop Puppy Mills team and they work on policy, legislation around these issues, but we have the fantastic creators of our Horrible 100 Report. And so this is an annual report that's obviously put out each year that essentially is documenting, it's not the 100 worst in the country because we don't know. We don't know all of the puppy mills in this country, but we're going to go off of out of the records that we have access to what are the hundred worst, you know, breeding operations that we have read through and state inspection reports, federal inspection reports, uh, law enforcement reports, other information that we've had access to, and the creators of that report have, you know, um, designed this Document to showcase these horrific breeders that are out there to alert the public consumers. Anybody that wants to read it to say, here's all this information that's being withheld from you. We put it all in this. You know, easy to read report that you can have access to as well. And it's, you're blown up over the last 10 years, since it's, um, you know, origin, I think, just over 10 years ago, but. Um, it's incredible information to put out there to the public to let them know, um, you know, what, what they're not being told about.

And we always think about it as puppy mills, but does the report include just dog operations or does it include other species as well?

If there are cat breeders in there, it could include them too, certainly. Um, but for the majority, we're talking about dog breeders and, um, but yes, it can definitely also include if people are breeding cats as well and kittens, so. Um, but yes, so

in my opinion, um, I, I think of puppy mills as exploiter hoarders, right? Because they, they somewhat meet the same requirements. An exploiter hoarder is somebody that does not care about the, the status or the wellbeing of the animal. And it's just keeping them because they are getting some kind of reward, either their money or emotional or however it would be. And that's kind of how puppy mills are. Uh, what are what are going to be the most common problems that you see in these facilities when you go in there?

Okay, long answer. Um, yeah. Yeah. Uh, so a lot of these facilities, if you go off of a lot of the inspection reports that we review as well, whether they be state or federal, there's always a commonality. So you can see issues varying from housing and structural issues, um, sanitation, uh, especially medical issues, where they've outlined specific dogs at the facilities that, you know, This one has an eye issue. This one is limping. This one has blood coming from somewhere. Um, so a lot of failure to provide some type of vet care. Uh, no documentation, history, records on the dogs. Where are they coming from? Where are they going? How long have they been here? Um, and so we see, you know, besides the medical, the housing structural, I'm just trying to think of Um, the documentation, sanitation, uh, every time without fail. And so it's, it's, uh, the majority of the reports that we review have these issues in them, but it's, you know, up to the inspector or that agency to then advise a local law enforcement agency, Hey, we were out doing our portion and noted ABC violations for us. We want to alert you guys because obviously then can fall under a cruelty statute, you know, a state, uh, a state law that law enforcement is required to enforce and investigate.

About how often would you say that, that investigators do report these as animal crimes?

Sadly, hardly ever, if at all, and, you know, by the time sometimes we've, we've also seen these cruelty investigations come to fruition, but law enforcement sadly has been, you know, put in a negative light of why didn't you do anything sooner? Sometimes they had no idea. And if you look at, you know, I feel for certain law enforcement agencies, you've got police departments, sheriff's offices, and they're never trained on animal crimes cases, then a big one lands into their lap, and then they're scrutinized. Why? Who? You know, you didn't do it right. And you know, gosh, at least they did it in the end, but they had either little to no knowledge ahead of time, no training on how to do the investigations more thoroughly. Um, so a lot of these inspectors just aren't passing that information over to them and doing their due diligence of, Hey, this isn't right. You as the enforcement agency, can you look into this? And again, we're big fans of networking and working together, work together as different agencies. Um, HSUS has highlighted that a lot in the cases we've been doing over the last few years with all the different multiple agencies that have collaborated and come together to create an even better outcome if one were to have just tried to do it by themselves. So, um, yeah, sadly these inspectors just aren't passing that information over as much as they should be.

So you were just talking about, like, as far as the communication, not knowing where they came from or where they're going. So where are most of these dogs going from puppy mills?

Well, besides the ones that are disappearing, um, you know, we're seeing them either they, sure, they can be sold sight unseen if they're shipping them out to a consumer. Uh, otherwise we can see them being purchased to other brokers. So other breeders that are kind of middlemen funneling them back and forth. Uh, but a lot of the times too, we're seeing them sold straightly to all these pet stores that are out there.

Broker is actually a term that a lot of people don't understand. Most people think that they are actually where the animals come from. So what are brokers and how, how do they play into this whole thing?

Yeah. So brokers are kind of, they can either be, so if I was a broker, first off, I'd be required to get a specific license from the USDA. Um, but if I was a broker, it would mean that I can come to you as a breeder. Buy some of your dogs and then I'm going to go to this other breeder and sell the dogs to them or pet store, sell the dogs to them. So that middleman kind of with that transaction, um, when you see these pet stores and you see a van pull up with 50 puppies inside guarantee that's probably the broker that's dropping them off or the transporter for the broker, however that works. But your broker is your middleman dealer. If you will, they themselves. So I can also still be a breeder as well and breed my own dogs, but I'm also going to do the to and from back and forth middleman kind of thing as a broker as well. If that makes sense.

And the whole online shipping of animals. I mean, like, I don't understand how people fall for that. What are, what are kind of some of the issues that you see as far as when people are purchasing these animals online and just getting them shipped?

Yeah, I mean, it's not Amazon Prime, you know, it's, it's, you have a sentient being that you are having to transport and, and, And especially when you're talking about putting it in a crate on a plane, unsupervised, not monitored, um, it's, I, I think it's terrifying. And we've seen those transactions fail. We've been contacted by consumers who got a sick puppy, who didn't get a puppy and they were scammed out of their money. Um, and so the concern definitely is going to be, you know, the health. This poor little thing has got to go, it's already immunocompromised from wherever else it came from and now you're going to put it through the stress and trauma of having to travel, you don't know what it's exposed to, when does it get any kind of food or water, um, not to mention any poor sanitation issues with being in that crate, you know, urinating and defecating and having to exist in that until it gets to its final destination, heaven forbid if there's A type of layover and the puppy, we've seen them get stuck in warehouses that nobody's come to pick them up. Um, and then we, we had one case there's in Illinois and they died inside the crates. So, you know, and there's all, there's so much room for error and for something to go wrong. Um, I hate to say it. It's one of those things, like we wouldn't do this with kids. We're doing this with animals. You know, it doesn't, doesn't make sense.

We had a, a client, uh, at the hospital where I was working at that she got a puppy. I don't remember what kind of a dog it was, but she got this puppy from Texas and she purchased it online and allegedly it was registered and it had all these things. And as soon as the dog landed, as soon as she received it, she noticed that the dog was not feeling well and she took it straight from when she picked it up to the hospital and it had parvo. And this poor little dog went straight from the flight from Texas straight into an isolation ward for about a week. And this lady had all the expense of purchasing and then all the expense of the parvo treatment. Of course, the people that sold her the dog ghosted her because they're not responsible anymore. So it was just a disaster all around. And, you know, she didn't do it maliciously. She truly didn't know. And that's kind of one of the things that we want to do with this, educate people about. Why it's not okay to do that, right? Like you don't know what you're getting. And it's really easy to scam somebody in the mail.

Oh yeah. And, and no, consumers like, you don't know what you don't know. Right. And so we see so many well intentioned people that, uh, don't know any better. Or, you know, really thought they had done enough research and hadn't. Um, so no, it's no fault. It's, it is more about why we want to have these kind of conversations to generate the awareness and bring it to people's full attention. Um, we're starting to see billboards pop up around the country, talking to people about buying a puppy online, buying a puppy from a breeder. Um, and so no, it's, it's no, you know, no fault of their own, but it's gosh, with the, the struggles and the strife that they go through buying that puppy, let alone what the puppy itself goes through, it's traumatic. Um, we've dealt with families that pumped thousands of dollars into, you know, vet costs after they've purchased a sick puppy and only for it to die. That, you know, how many parents I've talked to that have purchased a Christmas puppy, and that went, you know, belly up. It's. awful to think of the trauma they have to go through. Those aren't memories that families want for Christmas. Those aren't memories that kids want growing up with their first dog. Um, it's horrible. I feel for them. So what are

going to be the worst states for puppy mills?

I mean, typically it kind of stays around the same, you know, um, locality in the, on the, in the country, if you will, but we see, you know, Midwest ish area, um, Ohio.

Go Bucks! We are horrible about puppy

mills. I mean, you guys are doing, there's a lot, I think it was like over 300, um, Class A breeders that you had, well over 300, like 350 something, but, uh, Missouri. Beat everybody with over 800 licensed, um, class A breeding facilities. So, um, but yes, uh, Kansas, Oklahoma. Indiana, Iowa, Illinois, uh, Oklahoma, PA. I think Wisconsin was on the list too for like, when you're looking at the top 10, um, USDA licensed breeders. So let me be clear on that too. We, when we talk about it, we want to make sure it's from information that we've seen, we've reviewed to, to confirm. So, um, each year HSUS, uh, our stop puppy mills team puts out a map. That's accessible to people online on the top 10 worst States. And so, uh, good old Ohio was up there, but not with 800, like Missouri, but you guys had over 300. So it's still a lot. And even the, uh, it puts, uh, the broker licenses in as well. So we do the class B category. I think you guys were like under 50, but that's still a decent amount. Um, 40 something, if I'm not mistaken. So a lot of those brokers, and again, this is just the people we know about. There's so many that are, there's no oversight, no regulation, no license requirement, law enforcement doesn't see them, they're completely unseen by the public, so again, it's just the ones that we know. And what's really

sad is that some of these people are not like just one time violations that lands them on these lists, right? Like some of them are year after year after year, yet they're still allowed to keep their license.

Exactly. We have frequent flyers. Isn't that sad that repeat offenders year after year of the Horrible 100 report, they're back in it again because from our research and all the great work that that team's done, they see the same person, the same kennel in there once again with repeated documented violations that have, you know, what's being done after that, that That's been documented. Nothing. So, um, yeah, it is sad to see, but we do have those each year, unfortunately.

And speaking of Ohio, we are kind of the home of one of the biggest pet stores that sells animals, so no very proud to say that we are the home of Petland. Um, and I did help you guys with a case a long time ago because some of the issues with these puppies being sold sick is not just the problem of health problems for the animals, but also health problems for people, right? Right.

Yes, that strikes, uh, yeah, as somebody who's contracted Campylobacter. Yeah, yeah. Yes, that is no fun. No, it's not.

Yeah, so, uh, and, and that video is available on the Puppy Mills campaign, but there was a purchase of a puppy. I think it was in Kentucky that the puppy was purchased.

There's a Texas video

too. Yeah, so I think the one that I saw the puppy that I examined from that video was the puppy from Kentucky and it came in and and one of the one of the things and it's not necessarily the fault of the employees because I don't think that they really know they're not educated. properly. And they were telling the purchaser, no, there's like less than 1 percent chance that this dog is going to have campylobacter or any problems like that. And the puppy came straight from there to me to get examined. It was in, in relatively poor condition. It was really thin. It was a doodle. So all this fluff hair, it made it look like it was healthy, but it was really, really skinny. And just water diarrhea coming out of it, um, and we examined it and it had Campylobacter and it took about six months to get that dog clear to where it was having normal stool. And thankfully it ended up in a really good home that, that took him and they're, they're doing great with him. But you know, all the people that potentially would get exposed from these animals and just the zoonosis, the, Antibiotic resistance that this is causing because a lot of these campylobacters are not like, we

can't

treat them. No, there's so there's the potential for so much zoonotic diseases with, um, you know, for folks that don't know where the disease passes jumps the species barrier so that we can contract it from them. And, you know, I think. I tell a lot of people too, thanks to COVID, if you will, it really brought to light for people to pay more attention about zoonotic diseases that they're out there and look how bad they can become. And so it really helps when I'm working with. Different law enforcement officials, and sometimes they'll hit a wall and they have a great case, um, but maybe they're not getting as much cooperation. Uh, it's not able to go up the chain for whatever reason. Uh, one thing I bring to, to, to light to them is, hey, have you talked to your public health officials about the case? Because you've got, you know, Giardia, coccidia, potential for campylobacter, even ringworm. You know, all these things that we can catch from these guys, um, it really gets their attention. And yeah, they're not happy about introducing more disease into the human population. So we've seen public health officials in a jurisdiction kind of gain interest and jump on it with law enforcement to work together because they had no idea. And it could be newer to them as well. They're looking for and tracking for other human illnesses. Now you're bringing in these zoonotic diseases and illnesses. So it's really getting the attention, uh, and not just like local public health officials. There was the, the 2 CDC investigations that came out of the Campbell back to, uh, from Petland stores, the 2016 and 2018 study that they did where they confirmed, you know, over 100 people were infected and they traced it. I believe it was from Florida where the puppy ended up at a store and they trace it back to the Ohio, I think it was breeder, I'm sorry. Um, and then in 2019 or 2020, I think they came on their radar again. And they went back and did another, another study. I don't recall all the numbers from it, but you get the interest of the CDC and this stuff. Um, you know, they're not messing around anymore. So, um, it's interesting to see that it's gained all their attention. It's, it's a great thing to see, but then it's also scary knowing this is all out there and that yes, any one of us can contract these, uh, illnesses, some antibiotic resistant. Uh, one of my co workers contracted the antibiotic resistant strain, I believe. And so, you know, it's, uh, it's not something we want out there. It's something we need to kind of put a cap on as soon as possible. So. Yeah, it's no joke.

And as you had said, like, people that buy these puppies for Christmas presents because of their kids and everything else, like, we're putting all these children in, in danger, and people that have elderly or immunosuppressed people in their home, because another Another misconception is some people say, well, I don't want to go to a shelter because I don't know where this dog came from. Or I know that shelters have diseases or whatever behavioral problems. And they go and purchase a dog from a pet store because they think they know where it came from, or they think they know that they are healthy and that couldn't be further from the

truth. Right. Yeah, no, it's, it's the whole health issue. I mean, at the end of the day, if it's an adult dog you're adopting, there's going to be history that you don't know. But, you know, if you want an adult dog, then you buy a retired breeder dog. That's what lived in a cage its whole life. Never been on a leash, seen sunshine, touched grass. You're going to have a lot more behavior issues to, um, there's research done by Frank McMillan, uh, on the behavior of puppy mill dogs too. There's several papers that he's written that, that, uh, are fascinating that people want to take a read, but yeah, socially, you know, these dogs are incapable. Um, the puppies, even, even though they're newer at life, still come traumatized because of everything they've seen in those few weeks. And so there's just, there's no guarantee, there's no guarantee, unless you get into your responsible breeders, breeding, uh, with, with, that have You know, they're breeding for good behavior and medical, and they have that genetic testing. They have that paperwork, legitimate paperwork, available for, for a buyer.

But also, we're not going to find the, what we consider responsible breeders, which would be people that have a veterinarian, that get the animals examined, that do Every test imaginable to make sure that they are bettering the, the breed. They're not just continuing on diseases and stuff. These are also people that don't have a hundred breeding animals, right? They usually have like two or three. Yeah, they're going to be

more specific. You know, they have that passion of whatever specific breed that they're interested in. Um, you know, like the Rottweiler and, um, they're not one of those. I always, it's bad. Uh, way that I paint the picture in my head, but it's like, you know, the little puppy drug dealer, like walking up to you, like, what do you want? Do you want a schnoodle oodle doodle? Or do you want to Yorkie schnorkie porkie? You know, they've just got a hundred breeds of puppies in their pockets. And it's, you know, they shouldn't have constant funneling out like year after year, month after month. There's no downtime. They just constantly have all of these dogs and puppies available. It's not normal. It's not right. It's not healthy. Um, And yeah, so the, the responsible guys really put that commitment and passion into those braids where they're perfecting and we want to keep those clean, healthy bloodlines in existence, um, for sure. So there's just, unfortunately, there's just not a lot of them out there. They're out there for sure. Um, and we need them, but unfortunately all these bad breeders are just messing it up for the rest of them.

And as consumers Uh, we are making it so much easier for these puppy millers because now we are taking into this whole concept of designer breeds. So we are allowing them to basically sell us mutts for thousands and thousands of dollars. And so many people don't research into that. I mean, not that there's any research to do really, but that we are, we are allowing all this stuff to happen.

Yeah, there's a little bit on the H. S. U. S. website in the puppy mill research section. You know, we go through there's different fact sheets out there for people because we want to give as much information as we can. We even go through the hypo allergenic stuff. You know, and so, but all your, your schnoodle oodle mixes too, we're, yeah, we're, we're, we're mixing breeds here as to what the, why this doesn't make sense to folks and whatever's trending, like the bernie doodle is huge right now. Why, because why, uh, the lab, labradoodles that, that started everything in the golden doodles that started at all, um, you know, no, just no, when there's shelters, there's no excuse. Right now, with the national crisis that all these poor shelters across the country are going through with overpopulation, overcrowding, and all those shelter workers are just trying to do their best to get by and get those animals good homes. And then you have somebody go out and buy a golden doodle. That's why.

Yeah. And I mean, we just, we recently were at a spay and neuter clinic, um, in Muskegon County and one of the local shelters brought us 10 doodle puppies, beautiful puppies, young puppies that ended up at a shelter. Because the person that bred them was like, well, I got too many and these are not selling, so I'm just going to give them to the shelter. So how is that helping the shelter population? And all the people that say, oh, you can't find anything other than pit bulls at shelters. No, the sad reality is that shelters are full of every age, every breed size and everything. And on the whole Bernadudo, I'm seeing Bernadudos that are 20 pounds at their largest as adults. Right. Do people know what Bernese Mountain Dogs are? They're gigantic dogs, right? It's like, put curly hair on something and call it whatever you want it to be. It's like, what do you want? You want a Bernadoodle? Here, this is a Bernadoodle. Because how are people also going to know what the dog is going to be once it's fully grown? Yeah, it's not like there's a, there's a standard to follow.

No, I think with the minis too. Yes. You know, you can see a 20 pound mini, you'll see a 50 pound mini. Like, what, what?

Talking about shelters, and this is kind of controversial, and I don't know that we're going to get to an answer or figure out, but just points for thoughts is when rescues work with puppy mills. Um, I work with a lot of rescues that will get animals from puppy mills. They'll get either puppies that cannot be sold, or they will get the dogs that they're done breeding, uh, and often in really horrible conditions, right? Like horrible teeth, horrible skin problems, and worse than that, horrible emotional damage, because these dogs are just living in a cage, living in horrible conditions, not really handled. So I've always had two ways of thinking about it because I feel that the rescues are enabling the puppy mills by getting these dogs out of there and helping them out and not, uh, reporting them. But then the other side of it is that the rescues are concerned that if they Do report them. Nothing's going to happen. And then what's going to happen to these to these dogs. And we see some retail stores that are now encouraging rescues to put their adoptables right next to the purebred dogs. So what are kind of your

thoughts on that? I think it's so new. Not brand new. It's been around for a minute, but it is a new topic that I think, yeah, it's controversial because there's pros and cons to it. Like, just like you said, I think at the end of the day, there's also a whole other topic that we've talked about before there's good rescues and there's bad rescues. So, you know, the rescues going in with the intent also to profit off of it. Um, you know, at the end of the day, they have to generate funds to continue the support the work they're doing. But when you see a rescue also selling a puppy for 1, 000, that's that's not what it's about. And so, uh, I think it's still controversial because it's so new. Um, just like you said, you know, if no one takes those dogs from those breeders, the retired breeder adults. The sick puppies, the old puppies that are too old to sell anymore. Where do they go? This is part of the disappearance act, right? They disappeared. No one ever knows where they end up. So is it better for us in animal welfare because we care and you can't kill off kindness, uh, animal welfare lovers. We're going to, you know, try to help where we can, but at the end of the day. We're adults. That's your responsibility as a breeder, right? That it, that you have to understand, you have to have a plan. What are you going to do for the dogs that don't sell? How, how long are you going to breed an adult before you're going to stop breeding it? And then what are you going to do if you claim to care so much for the dogs? So, you know, we see those responsible breeders have that plan. They always say if something's wrong with the puppy, you can bring it back to us and it's still treated as a part of a member of their family. Um, the retired breeders, the people that only breeds so many seasons, cycles, what, what have you. And so they won't put that female through having to, you know, be a machine of just pumping out puppies like a t shirt gun. And so I think there's a mix to it. What do we do if we don't, if we do nothing, what happens? But then we, you know, are we enabling, are we continuing to fuel that puppy mill pipeline for supply and demand? Because we've given them the space to make more puppies. I don't know that there's an answer to it just yet. I see both sides to it. Part of it, it's like, okay, let's help out those poor adult breeders that just need a home to rest in. But then it's, it's your choice as this, as taking on breeding as, as a business. That you have to have that plan for those dogs. So I'm not sure yet what that looks what that's going to look like. And when shelters and rescues are competing just with simply the local supply and demand of from their community, people that can't keep their pets anymore stray animals that are found and born, um, you know, where's the space for those guys? And do they get priority? What does that look like? Because I don't know. That's a whole other topic with all of our shelters right now that we feel right now. So bad for, I don't know how they're doing it. How are you adopting where, you know, we've, we've re reached this point where they're not seeing as many adoptions, um, and their resources are so low. They're so spread thin. So then you bring in this other type of population again, at the end of the day, it's all about spay'n neuter,

right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So we, I mean, we have the, as consumers, again, we have the power. Spay neuter to control over population to decrease the number of unwanted animals that end up in the shelter. But then it is all about supply and demand. So if we stop demanding the animals from the puppy mills, they have to shut down. I mean, if they don't have anything to sell, then they're going to go into another venture because if they can't make money of it, they're not going to, they're not going to continue it on.

And sure. There's the whole, you know, I get it. Shelter takes in 20 dogs from a puppy mill. It brings the community and they flock into that shelter and it can expose, you know, maybe somebody that wasn't going to adopt a cat falls in love with a cat and that takes that one can into a home or a different dog that was already at the shelter for 300 days now gets a chance to be seen by somebody that may not have, I, I will acknowledge that. However, the, the larger side of that with these big populations coming in from breeders, Getting rid of their dogs. It's hard to think about. But it does boil down to, at the end of the day, in the animal welfare community, we all have a hard time saying no.

And I guess that actually, I had not thought about, uh, the uh, auctions, the puppy auctions. Where, which are so horrible. I've never, I've never seen one in person, I've only examined animals that come out of it, but can you explain to people what are these puppy auctions and why they're

so horrible? Oh, let me give you a great example of one with a big commercial burrito that was getting busted and needed to downsize so you can just Like we talked about in the beginning, where the dogs disappear and the regulatory agencies don't care, the fact is dogs are gone, so now it's not their problem anymore. But part of where those dogs disappear to are auctions, where if I just got busted by the USDA, I got 500 dogs and they all look like hell, and I've got to downsize or fix the sick ones by this day, I'm gonna load a hundred of them up, and I'm gonna go to this auction where it's literally people just bidding on dogs. It's usually other breeders. That are then taking Those dogs to then make their own populations. And again, talk about feeling the cycle, just regenerating it over and over, uh, the conditions there. Are they, is there any kind of oversight or enforcement? No, absolutely not. We get into other auctions, livestock auctions, you know, there's the one out in the, the equine one in Holland, pa. They're awful. And then when they're left there too, they're, what are they? Do they have food, water, adequate shelter? Um, is there regulations on selling sick ones? Nope. Sure isn't. Hey, you got 200 bucks and you want to buy this, you know, breeder. This female that's been used about 22 times in her life. Here you go. She's yours. And so it's disgusting. There are some rescues that try to do some good and they try to raise money to go out there and get some of those dogs out of there. It's heartbreaking. Cause it's like, I wish I had a million dollars so you could just buy everything. Guess what? If you had a million dollars and you bought all those dogs, they'll find a way to bring in more, no matter what.

Yeah, that's what that's where I have been involved have been rescues that go to these auctions and then they get the puppies and nobody wants right they're getting some of these dogs for like five bucks, 10 bucks, and they are dogs in horrible shape. Um, and, and we have to think about the fact that, you know, again, we talked about all the, the health diseases and the emotional problems that these dogs have, and then the rescues take these dogs, get them spayed and kind of patch them up, and then these dogs become somebody else's problem. Yeah,

they're going to take that on and sustain that, you know, whatever the medical issue might be. And if there's not a combination of the medical issues, if it's a younger dog that as it grows, then develops those congenital issues that's put on that poor, again, well intentioned person that wants to bring, you know, another family member into they're stuck with, which is, we know too, the costs. To, to care for them. And then, you know, you want to keep going on about the cycle, it can lead to then people either surrendering the dog again or failing to provide care to their own pet and that gets reported. So it's a vicious cycle. And then you're really just relying on these amazing people that have the means to pay thousands and thousands of dollars, which is not a lot of us. Rightly so, you know, I, it's, it's, it's a lot. The, uh, pet is a huge undertaking. Um, other countries right now that are questioning, like, do you need a license? Like, do you need permission basically, uh, to earn a dog because of what their issues are they're seeing? So, um, it's a huge responsibility, but they have, the consumers are left with having to continue that care. Once the rescue still pumped thousands or hundreds of dollars into that dog, it doesn't stop there. Um, and then behaviorally too, which is a whole other thing. So if they're having to manage that, and we've seen people that have, you know, adopted from a rescue, but then returned it because the, the dog's behavior is, is something that is not compatible with their lifestyle or wishes for, for a pet.

Yeah. I would definitely like to see more regulation of not just the puppy milk, which they're not well, properly as properly regulated as we would like, but regulation of just anybody that breeds a dog for sale, because they're just, there, there is no way. To properly keep track of it. And there are so many people that are doing it for the wrong reasons, just because they want to make money. I know of a person that breeds small breed dogs and the, at least the mom dog. And I probably the dad dog too, but the bitch has skin problems, behavior problems, I think orthopedic problems, and they keep breeding them and the people that are buying them. It's just like, Oh, what a cute puppy. And then they pay her many hundreds of dollars for this dog. That is a genetic disaster and for why? Right? Because this person is not, is not being, uh, regulated and they're probably not even paying taxes for the sale of these dogs. Like, it's just ridiculous all the way around. And the one that suffer is the person that bought this dog thinking that they're buying a healthy puppy. And then the dog in the end, that is going to have all of these health problems that may or may not get treated properly. Well, so somebody actually did make a report once you guys received that report. How does it go forward from there?

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's a hit or miss, right? So if we get information sent over to us. Uh, so we can either receive it from a person that's visited, so they're reporting the conditions, a buyer that's had a horrible experience, uh, law enforcement, family of, you know, there's so many different ways that we can receive information, but once we're contacted, um, let's say that we get an online complaint. And so we'll, you know, document it, address it, do some research on it, and then we're going to reach out to law enforcement and share the information with them, but also follow up and offering any kind of resources and assistance. So, you know, sometimes they might just, you know, law enforcement will then go out, do an inspection, uh, confirm whether or not there are any issues. Close the case. Uh, sometimes we have an opportunity in our outreach to law enforcement to provide education. This is something I've not investigated before. What do I do? What am I looking for? Great. Let me tell you all the things.

Asking for help is great. Please

do. Right. To follow up with, you know, if these things happen and you find these problems that we can support ABC for you. Um, and then the, the hope is if they open an investigation and it becomes a big deal, referencing a recent North Carolina, a puppy mill case that we just did. Um, you know, law enforcement takes real interest. They acknowledge this as a horrific issue in their jurisdiction and they want to act on it, but then they're like, Wait, there's how many dogs on the property? Over 100? Uh, what do we have to do if we have to seize them through a search warrant? Where do we put them? What do we do? Is this live evidence? Uh, who's responsible for paying for all this? We don't have a vet. We have no local shelter or our local animal shelter has five kennels that are already filled with 50 dogs. Um, they don't have the resources. We will come in and it's it's something that we, you know, hope to help with in our connection and our outreach with these agencies of if you can, on your side, perform the criminal investigation, see there's an issue, there's enough evidence. To pursue something you've tried to help. You've tried to educate. There's been no change or compliance and it reaches the point where a search warrant needs to be executed and we're working with law enforcement. We're working with the prosecutor's office, but we're the ones providing those resources. Yes. And we come in. Under law enforcement to work with them and work for them in providing all of those resources, the unseen evidence collection during the search warrant. But then after that, too, it's not like we just help on the day. And then we were off. Um, H. S. U. S. Being able. To provide that financial assistance relieves them of the financial burden, which is at one of the major concerns of an enforcement agency pursuing these cases, because as you know, they can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars we participated in cases that have cost us over millions of dollars. One that comes to mind that we spent over 2 million while the dogs were in our care. That is nothing that a local agency can take on. No rescue that could bankrupt a non profit. And so being able to give these resources at no cost to an enforcement agency that you can do your job and we can support you in that is incredible. We're very fortunate as an organization that we can do that. But if, and when needed. Um, you know, like I mentioned, not just on seizure day, but then following the ongoing care of the animals, the cost of veterinary care and veterinary assessment and examination and triage of all these dogs that have come in from these horrific conditions. Um, the cost can be gargantuan transporting them where are they getting housed? Because again, they're live evidence that they don't go in a drug locker. So then the staff and the resources to continue that care whilst those are animal whilst those animals are held throughout the duration of the court case, which is we know can take years, especially if it's in a state that doesn't have cost of care. So, um, you know, you could be holding on to the animals for weeks to months to years, I've seen a shelter in Kentucky. It was two to three years they were holding on to these dogs the puppies were adults. You know, it's, it's horrific to think about, but yes, we can come in and provide those kinds of resources. If requested, we just have to be invited in.

A lot of people that complain about why is this puppy mill still around? Like, why are you not doing anything? They don't recognize the lack of resources, including specially as you mentioned and veterinary resources. I know here in Ohio, for instance, there are so many veterinarians that don't want to get involved because they don't want to go to court. They don't want to, you know, have to write legal. papers or consults because they're concerned about what if I mess up? What if I do something wrong? And that for, for animal cases, you have to have a veterinary team. You have to have people that know about animals to, to help with that. And as you said, where are these animals going to go? Now, when you recuperate the animals from a case, when you get the animals out of that situation, what are the possible end points for those animals?

Once we bring them back to our, uh, either if it's a local temporary shelter, or we have a care and rehabilitation facility in Maryland, um, once they either come back to either shelter, um, then our mission first off is to rehabilitate. We need to get a lot of these animals, obviously, because they've been seized, are in poor conditions. So, showing improvement. providing simple things such as food and water and adequate shelter, but then the needed vet care for a lot of them. Um, and so that takes time. That takes in some situations, a long time to rehabilitate, uh, medically and behaviorally because these dogs are coming in from horrific conditions and we have a great behavior team that works closely with them to monitor, address, provide those resources for that for those dogs. but, uh, you know, provide the dogs with the things that they need to learn or remember how to dog again. So that we can essentially set them up for success. And their next step of their journey that once we get custody of them, then we work with these incredible shelter and rescue partners across the country that have some space. We don't want to overwhelm their population and overburden them. So we want to look for the places of where is their space, where is there some needs. And so once those shelter and rescue partners can take them in, then we want to send, you know, the dogs that we've now, um, invested everything into to set them up for success in the step of their next, you know, adventure and the next chapter in their life so they can find good homes. and bring awareness, especially when they're puppy mill dogs coming from puppy mill cases. People think it's cute and then it's, but it is an opportunity then to train and teach members of the community, like, but this is what, what they came from. These are the conditions. that they may not have really understood or known about before.

In closing, how can, how can consumers protect themselves from purchasing a dog that is from a puppy mill?

I say this to my friends that reach out to me. So even close, the people that are close to me. That I care for that I don't want to see go through the experiences that I see every day at work. Um, is kind of what we touched on with the responsible breeders, you know, look for the breeders that have all this information. There should be, you know, no hesitation if you have questions about things that they have answers to those questions that if you want to see something that they will show you whether it be. In person living conditions, the parents, the dog, uh, the biggest things, genetic testing. Can I tell you how many handwritten receipts I've seen of like vaccine check on the back of a grocery receipt or something? No, no handwritten information. You want documentation. You know what official documentation looks like as a veterinarian, all of that paperwork. There should be no hesitation. Even do you want to talk to my veterinarian? Right. Hey, the medical expert who has seen and treated all your dogs over the years, um, but the genetic testing is huge. I would focus more on what is a red flag. Red flag is someone who has. Everything, every time, all the time, should be a red flag. The breeder that says, let's meet in this parking lot at Home Depot or Walmart.

10 o'clock at night, cash only.

Yeah. Um, and you, someone, people that should have these good reviews, look up reviews because guess what? No one can, no one says things when they're great. But I tell you, they'll complain when something's bad. So you'll see a lot of bad reviews out there as well. Don't forget the information you have access to, to look up the USDA, um, their search tool for the breeder license registrations. Also each state, not every state, but there are some states that have, um, that require state licenses and they do state inspections. Can you request those records to that regulatory agency? Is it, is it accessible? Most of them are not accessible online, but there are some states that you can pull that information off of. and then, uh, yeah, doing just any basic online research to looking at their website, looking at other people that have had those experiences, not going on a Facebook marketplace and looking at something like for 300. It looks cute. Um, but the red flags to them of especially if you with the puppy mill scams where they're trying to, you know, get you to give them more money for different reasons. So, uh, focus on the red flags. What doesn't look right? And yes, totally go with your gut, um, and do your research. So really take the time. I think when people are buying on a whim or just because they want it. That's where something usually goes wrong, because they haven't really taken the time. even when you go to shelters, like people will visit more than once, because they want to look around, they want to get a feel for it. So it shouldn't be a rush, a rush purchase. Um, that's where bad things can definitely happen too. So really paying attention to those red flags, but using the tools or knowing about the tools that are out there to help you. Buy the right dog if you don't want to go to your local shelter.

I always tell people, you know, obviously the shelters are overcrowded so adopt, don't shop, but if you shop, shop responsibly. Like, don't just go buying for backyard breeders and people that are just selling dogs for the wrong reasons, which the wrong reasons is just to make a buck. Not to better the breed or to, uh, you know, breed out genetic problems and genetic disorders.

And people are upset about, like, there's no puppies in shelters. Well, there's rescues that are going to these states that are riddled with puppies, trying to bring some back. So rescues play a really great role in. Adoption too. So,

and there's even purebred rescues, right? So people that are interested in purebreds, there are places that are purebred rescues and they do get puppies occasionally. And yes, it is difficult to adopt from them because I'm sure there's a high demand, but they don't want those dogs to end up back with them. So they are going to be really picky, sometimes pickier than adopting a child.

Yeah, they, they, they, some of their requirements, um, you know, we've seen they're very, uh, intense. And we, we feel that passion, um, but it shouldn't be impossible. Right. If there are reasons that they want to adopt to people, they should be legitimate reasons, but it shouldn't be impossible. When you hit that point, that's a red flag for a rescue.

Right, yeah, how much they charge and what exactly they're, they're looking for as well. So, uh, if anybody wants to find out information about the puppy mill campaign from HSUS, how can they get that?

Yes, anyone can go online and look up at HSUS's website, so humanesociety. org. We have a ton of puppy mills research. You can just type in HSUS puppy mills research, every kind of document will fly on your face. They, the team has done a phenomenal job with, uh, comprising all of this information into easy flow section in the website, um, so that we can teach you all things puppy mills. And if people have questions, there's emails for people to reach out to us, ask these questions, learn this information, spread the information, tons of other advocacy groups that are out there also trying to send the message about we need to end puppy mills and do better with regulating them. So anyway, we can help.

Always amazing talking to you because you're a wealth of information and you kick ass against animal cruelty. So thank you for everything that you do.

Back at you.

And for everybody that is listening, please, I hope that you get at least a little bit of. new information or education. And as Shalimar said, spread the word because we are the only ones that can help this problem and stop puppy mills. So thank you ma'am very much again for being here and to everybody that's listening. Thanks to you for listening and thank you for caring. Thank you much.