0:00:05.4 Vicki Brett: Welcome to the Inclusive Education Project. I'm Vicki Brett.

0:00:09.2 Amanda Selogie: I'm Amanda Selogie. We're two civil rights lawyers on a mission to change the conversation about education, civil rights, and modern activism.

0:00:19.5 VB: Each week, we're going to explore new topics which are going to educate and empower others.

0:00:25.8 AS: And give them a platform to enact change in education and level the playing field. Welcome back, friends.

0:00:35.6 VB: Hello. It has been the beginning of the school year. For a lot of people, they're in full swing. We're end of August, but there's still some stragglers that will start, I think, after Labor Day.

0:00:48.6 AS: Yeah, a few, I think. I mean, it used to be the norm, right, that a lot of schools got back after Labor Day so that they didn't have a three-day weekend, right, at the beginning of the school year. But things are changing.

0:01:01.1 VB: So last week, we spoke to you guys about central auditory processing, and the technology that could help. And we are really excited to have Dr. Stephanie Meyer on. She's an audiologist at the Rio Rancho Public Schools, and we really want to talk to her more about the role of some of those instructional audio, and making it more inclusive. Dr. Stephanie, thank you so much for coming on.

0:01:27.2 Dr. Stephanie Meyer: Oh, you're welcome. Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

0:01:31.3 VB: So how long have you been at the Rio Rancho Public Schools?

0:01:34.0 DM: I've been at Rio Rancho Public Schools for three years. I'm starting my fourth year, the end of this month, talking about going back very soon.

0:01:41.5 VB: Yeah.

0:01:42.0 DM: Well, the end of July, excuse me, because we're, you know. But I was at Albuquerque Public Schools for 25 years before that.

0:01:48.3 VB: That was going to be my next question. And so, which came first, working at the public schools or being an audiologist?

0:01:58.0 DM: I was only an audiologist one year, not in the public school system.

0:01:58.3 VB: Oh, okay. Oh, not in the public school system. Oh, wow. Okay.

0:02:00.0 DM: I worked for the Pueblo Indians in New Mexico.

0:02:03.3 VB: Oh, okay. And so, yeah. I mean, do you mind sharing with our listeners your journey into the field of audiology, and how you found focusing on the educational component of it?

0:02:13.2 DM: Well, I think for me, it was just something I always wanted to be with kids. You know, adults are fun. I like adults. But I've always wanted to be kind of the mom of the neighborhood. And the way to do that is to be in the schools. And I knew I wanted to be a mom also and be on the same schedule as the kids. And then I just found it to be my passion. And I've learned so much. And I just really love that experience and being with those students and trying to connect with every kid on whatever level they are at to make the experience a positive one for them. Having a hearing loss in schools is different. It's difficult. And, you know, if I can try and make that easier for them, I want to.

0:02:52.7 VB: Absolutely. And how have you seen in your experience instructional audio technology impacting students in a positive way?

0:03:00.7 DM: I just love it. You know, I did not have the support at my previous district about having structural audio systems. And then I came to Rio Rancho and they had invested in the systems before I even got there. So luckily, I did not have to fight or push. And they really supported the use of those systems. And many of the classes or schools, excuse me, have systems for each classroom. And whether teachers use them or not is another issue, but at least they're there. And most teachers use them. I always know the teachers that don't use them because they are not, you know, they're not the ones that are loving them. I know if I go, if I have to remove a system at the end of the year to follow a student and that teacher says, no, at least I know that teacher has used it all year.

0:03:45.3 AS: Yeah. Well, we definitely see most of the time when we have teachers that really embrace the program, they very quickly see how it doesn't just impact the specific child it was usually put in place for, but other kids as well. It's one of these systems that can easily put in place for all classrooms and help be inclusive for everybody because everyone has different levels of abilities. And even if a kid doesn't have an IP, doesn't mean that they might not struggle.

0:04:16.0 DM: Right. Absolutely. And I just, I feel like when, even as adult learners, we go to conferences and if someone is not using their microphone, we check out, we start getting on our cell phones in the back of the hall because it's hard to stay engaged. And how can we expect young learners to, who are obtaining new information in a growing and changing brain to remain focused and on task throughout the day without that same support?

0:04:42.8 VB: You know, I should have, we should have started with this. What is the instructional audio technology? We talked to our listeners last week about some of the ones we primarily see in California, but can you give an overview of some of the instructional audio technology that you use in your line of work?

0:05:00.4 DM: Generally, it's the teacher wears a microphone and there's either a speaker system in the ceiling mounted or a portable system that can be placed, a portable speaker, excuse me, that can be placed in the back of the class because you want it to act like surround sound. It's not amplification. It's not distorting the teacher's voice.

0:05:20.6 DM: It's not doing anything like that. It's just really providing these students surround sound. So the kids in the back have the access as the kids in the front. A child with a hearing loss has the same access if the teacher turns around or all the kids have the same access if the teacher turns around. And so it's a pretty simple system and it's just amazing the difference it can make. I mean, and that's the simple one. There are more complicated ones, more no, and advanced that do more things, but we don't, we have not invested in those yet. I would be interested to try some out that we've invested in yet.

0:05:54.0 VB: Well, I mean, even just like the surround sound is beneficial to all the students that are within the classroom, right? We've had districts say like, Oh, well, just for one kid. And it's like, it's not just for one kid. And like you said, it's not just amplification, it's really attention, that I mean, if I had surround sound when I was a kid, I'm sure I would have paid attention a lot more because it would have been easier. It would have been easier. Can you talk about, I know that this district had already kind of had invested. So that was already a big plus in this type of technology and accommodations for students. Can you share some tips or insights into how you were able to continue to communicate the importance of some of this audio technology in the classroom setting?

0:06:42.5 DM: Rio Rancho has ed techs at all of their schools. And then there's a main ed person and the main ed tech person wasn't really involved. But even at the school level, connecting with that person and saying, Hey I want these systems out. They were the ones that managed the systems at the school. And weren't necessarily the ones, if the teachers didn't want them, not pushing them on the teachers. And so I would show up because I had a kid on an IEP that required the system. And that was like, can we just put these all out?

0:07:09.9 DM: You know, why are the kids sitting here and just really having relationships and offering to go in and talk to some of the teachers at the school. I asked if I could show up at the staff meeting one time at one of the schools. If I could start the meeting without the system and try and talk in my regular voice, not project just in your regular voice and listen to, especially the teachers in the back say, I'm sorry, we can't hear you, which of course, you know, they are confident enough to speak up unlike a student. And I said, well, you know, that's kind of too bad. You should have sat closer to the front, you know? And I was like, I didn't say it that way. I said, you can move closer to the front and...

0:07:50.9 VB: That's so funny.

0:07:53.1 DM: And then after about five minutes, I turned the system on and it's like, oh, wow, that really makes a difference. And having them go through the difficulty of hearing without it first and not really giving them the reason why I'm doing it and then turning it on, it's like, oh, wow, that really is helpful.

0:08:11.7 VB: Isn't that so funny? I think those are the strongest ways in which you can really, because unless it affects somebody, you know, they're very slow, right to react.

0:08:21.3 DM: But we all are. We learn by experience.

0:08:26.7 VB: Oh, wow. I love that. That reminds me of very early on as a special education attorney, going to different conferences and having different presenters. And one was for dyslexia and them giving us a sheet of paper. And I mean, it looked like just jumbled mash to me. Right? And this was how some students with dyslexia see their schoolwork, their homework. And it was just, it was really powerful.

0:08:49.6 VB: And I mean, they were preaching to the choir at that point, 'cause all of the people that were in there. But it was really powerful because we like to say that most people will either know someone with a disability or have a disability themselves maybe when they're 85, or maybe when they are born. But to really put the educators in that position and say some of the things that they may have said, right, well, you should be closer. And it's like, not everybody can be at the front of the classroom, right? It's just classrooms aren't, you know, and I would imagine teachers probably speak more than actors. So even having just like that example of the mic would help with their own vocal cords. What are some of the other, you have like any stories of some of the more either complicated or just successful students that you were able to help with different technology?

0:09:41.8 DM: You know, working primarily with kids with hearing loss, I would like to get into central auditory processing disorder also. But again, that is something I am not an expert in. And I realize I need to learn more about it and working on that. But working primarily with kids with hearing loss, I have a couple of students that refused personal amplification systems, where the teacher has a microphone and it connects to their hearing aids. And that is the best system for a student with hearing loss. They reject that because it brings attention to them.

0:10:12.0 DM: And so they're like, this is nice. The instructional audio is nice because it doesn't bring attention to the student. But I put some in their classrooms and they're like, I don't need those. You don't need to put those in. And then after a month, I come back and I'm like, how are those going? Yeah, those are kind of making a difference. I really like those, and I'm like, is that something we can keep on your IEP for next year and as you go to high school? Yeah, I find that really helpful, and they're kind of subtle about it because they're middle school kids. So they're not overboard. And then I get to some of my high school students who will be like, yeah, this teacher's not using it. You need to talk to them. And they'll...

0:10:49.6 VB: Good, good.

0:10:51.2 AS: Well, it's interesting. A lot of these kiddos are being introduced to these systems, from what I've seen, some of them later in their educational careers. So middle school, high school. If we were to incorporate this much earlier on when they're in elementary school, in many of these cases, they needed it back then, which wasn't identified, then it would be easier for them to get used to, it would be easier...

0:11:12.7 AS: And if, of course, they were classrooms, it wouldn't make them appear different. Other students would have seen them, it wouldn't seem like it's something new and different. Everyone would accept it as like, oh, this is a tool. This is a tool the same way a calculator is a tool or glasses are a tool, right? And so it's something that we don't always see in many areas of special education, not identified as soon as it could be.

0:11:32.8 DM: Right. And some of the instructional audio places manufacturers are coming out with a system that really allows the teachers to connect with the central office. And so it's become a safety thing, too. So they're really not looking at it as, oh, just we need this for kids with hearing loss, but it's become a safety issue for the whole school. Sadly, this is what's being needed in the classrooms for teachers being in the classroom. And so teachers can lock down, teachers can press a button saying, I'm here, I need help, or whatever it is. And the staff can communicate with the teachers, there's someone's come in the building, lock your classrooms without maybe alarm, you know, in a different rather than having to remember what certain bell codes mean or something like that. And so it's becoming kind of hopefully the norm for classrooms to just have these, like you said, because they benefit the teacher, they benefit the kids with central auditory processing disorder, they benefit kids who didn't get enough sleep, they benefit, who maybe just kind of want to check out, they're not in the mood today. It really they just benefit English language learners. I mean, everybody, there's nobody that's not going to benefit from the system. And so I just wish every district could see that and invest in that.

0:12:45.4 VB: I mean, it really does sound like that audio, the instructional audio tech is in a way providing equitable access, right, to all students.

0:12:56.4 DM: Yes.

0:12:56.9 VB: From your perspective, would you say that yeah, from your perspective?

0:13:00.9 DM: Definitely.

0:13:01.0 VB: Yeah.

0:13:00.7 DM: Definitely. And it's not, like I said, it's not maybe the perfect solution for kids with hearing loss, but it's better than nothing for kids with hearing loss. And it's great for everyone in the classroom. And you can also use that in the classroom. And then the child can have their personal stuff on too, if they're willing to use the personal amplification system. And so they can work together. It doesn't have to be an either or and then the whole class can benefit at the same time.

0:13:25.3 VB: I think that's just something overall that we see throughout any IEP team is sometimes you have people that are just kind of in their little box. And they're just like, I'm the OT, and I'm speech and the deaf and hard of hearing, and person that comes in to check on things. And sometimes when we get them all together, and we kind of force them to talk or have that collaboration time, we see them actually working as a team. What advice do you have for educators or other audiologists that want to try to implement it on the scale that your district has implemented? Do you have any advice just based on your journey that you can give them? We do have some administrators that listen, teachers, they message us and we're so grateful for their time. But what advice do you have for them looking to implement it?

0:14:17.4 DM: I think if admin is really resistant, I think a trial system is a good way to go with a couple teachers that can be good users and good reporters. And really, so they can document and show how much it can make a difference with using these systems, half the year without and half the year with, something like that. And I think admins need personal stories about how hard is it when you go to a conference and you don't have, no one's using the system again, it gets back and we're older, our brains are fully formed, fully developed. We're not necessarily always learning brand new material at these conferences, like we're expecting these students to do. I think just having conversations and meeting face-to-face as a team, as sending emails, but having that mutual respect and being like, this is something we all need to learn more about and yeah, it's not for not... It's not cheap, but it's not outrageous either. For cost per student, it's really some of the most manageable monies that district can spend and certainly most cost effective because it does benefit absolutely every single student in that classroom.

0:15:23.6 VB: That was going to be my next kind of tangent story of what we face with districts that are saying, this is too much money. You know, why are we doing this for one student? But it sounds like, from everything that you've seen, that it really is something that is beneficial to all students, just like it is to all humans.

0:15:46.5 DM: Exactly. Yeah. And just getting the administration to see that and realizing it's not for one student and it lasts, using some systems that are probably 25 to 30 years old.

0:16:01.2 AS: Wow.

0:16:01.3 VB: Oh, wow.

0:16:01.7 DM: I mean, they are starting to show their age, but that's amazing. That's a lot of use for technology. We don't often see that in the technology field these days, that longevity. And so that's a lot of, a long time to use this equipment that we're going to get our money's worth. So yeah, maybe it's a little bit upfront. Maybe we focus school by school, maybe grade by grade. I don't know. That is manageable so a district can start to use these funds. Sometimes there's extra funding for like the COVID funding at schools got extra. They can use that money for something like this. Just suggesting extra ways, different ways to use that extra money. And again, it doesn't have to be the whole district at once. I think that can be overwhelming for admin too.

0:16:46.9 VB: Yeah. Well, Dr. Stephanie, we appreciate your time. Thank you so much for coming on, especially when we had our prior episode where we were talking about a lot of the different types of accommodations that do help central auditory processing disorders, but that also help so many students and not just those with deaf or hard of hearing. And I know that that are some of the students, probably more of the students that you encounter, but if an admin or if a listener wanted to reach out to you, or they had specific questions, is there a way that they can reach out to you to kind of talk about your journey and how you were able to advocate on behalf of this technology in the school district?

0:17:25.4 DM: Absolutely. My email is stephanie.meyer, M-E-Y-E-R at R-R-P-S.net.

0:17:36.7 VB: Wonderful. Thank you so much for your time. This is just incredible work that you do. And I'm so happy that you were able to find a district that had already invested in it. And then your continued advocacy with it, I think is tremendous because you could have just stopped there, but being able to come on and share your journey with our listeners, I'm sure is very, it's very impactful. So we appreciate your time.

0:17:57.5 DM: It's become something I'm very passionate about now. Yeah. Seeing the difference it makes.

0:18:02.6 VB: Yeah. And I mean, there's not, you know, we've been doing this podcast for a while and being able to speak to someone that really sees the difference and how impactful and how inclusive and how it affects all students in a positive way, it's really outstanding that you were able to kind of share that with us and our listeners. So we appreciate you.

0:18:22.2 DM: Oh, thank you and you know, I just want to add real quick.

0:18:24.5 VB: Yeah.

0:18:24.6 DM: So invest in, it's really important that districts invest in systems that design these for educational purposes and not just the Amazon system that is 10 times less expensive. We've all have that instructional, we've all been to places where you're like, I can't understand a word through this system. That is not helpful in an educational setting. It really is important that they get the ones that are designed for education.

0:18:50.3 AS: Because we definitely, and we see it sometimes where parents do get frustrated because they're like, oh, it takes forever to get these systems in place, but you want to make sure that time and detail is taken and making sure that we have good systems in place. And it sounds like once you get the good system, it's going to be in place for a long time. So you have a much longer term benefit for doing the waiting. So that's really good information. And again, we really appreciate you coming on and to our listeners, we will talk to you next week.

0:19:20.6 VB: Thank you, Dr. Stephanie.