Welcome to Theology.

Throwdown.

We, the Christian podcast community of podcasters, gather to discuss our theological differences with love and charity.

This is a ministry of striving for eternity.

Welcome to another edition of Theology Throwdown.

This is a ministry of striving fraternity.

I am your host, Andrew Rappaport.

I also host the Rap Report podcast and Apologize Live.

This is where all of the Christian podcast community podcasters get together to discuss different theological topics.

Today on hand is going to be the topic of evangelism.

The how, the when, the where, maybe even the why.

We will be discussing that we will first to get before we get started.

So you guys who are listening will get to hear some of the voices.

We will go around.

Well, the virtual room here.

And we will let you guys hear.

Let each person introduce themselves their podcast so you know who they are.

And you go, hey, I really like what that guy Derek was saying.

I actually want to go find his podcast.

Well, when you hear his voice, pay attention because you'll want to remember what podcast he's on so that you will go and listen to that.

So we will start with Derek because I think he was the first one in.

Sounds good.

Hey, I'm Derek with the truth response Podcasts.

Yeah, I don't know what all you want me to say.

No, that's right.

What.

Why don't you let folks know what truth Response is about?

Okay.

Well, we are a roundtable discussion podcast where we try to tackle questions that most people are too scared to ask or pastors are too scared to answer.

And we take.

We're open to changing up topics the week before or whatever for people, you know, messaging in and saying, hey, I want to know about this.

All right, next in order was E.

Franklin.

Yes, I'm E.

Franklin.

I am the co host of the podcast are you just watching?

In which we usually discuss a movie, but often other forms of entertainment from a Christian worldview.

We're not in it to just slam the movie and say bad things about it.

We typically only review stuff we at least partially enjoy.

And we just want to pull out things that should be obvious to a Christian who is entertaining themselves with their Christian worldview active, not just watching.

So I'd hope that you would join my co host tonight.

Tim Martin and I on Are you just watching which we publish monthly.

And that monthly podcast, I think right now you're going through color of movies that have colors in them, right?

You did a red.

What is it like red something for Christmas.

There was a.

I forgot the name of the.

Yeah, we did Red.

Red one.

It was red one.

And then blue.

Blue something Beetle.

Blue beetle.

So your next is going to be green, you know.

You know, Or I figure.

I don't think so.

I figure if you keep it going, I'm sure there's probably, you know, when you, you'll find like, you know, orange man bad.

You know, that'll be the, you know, and you can, you could review that now in light of, you know, that's probably done in 2016.

All right, Mr.

A.m.

brewster, I see you are up next.

Happy to be here.

It feels like it's been a long time either since we had one of these or I was here, but I apologize.

I love these.

My name is Aaron Brewster, and I have two podcasts on the community.

One of them is called the Celebration of God, and I'm not currently recording new episodes for that, but it is evergreen.

And what it does is it's two years worth of material where we walk through the Christian holiday calendar and talk about what it is to worship God.

What is it to celebrate God?

But we also talk about what it is to celebrate God and worship him on the average Tuesday at 2pm so it is something that is really important to personal discipleship as well as corporate discipleship in the church.

Encourage you guys to check out the Celebration of God and the podcast that I've just now recently come back to after finishing my book and after, I can't say finishing the cleanup after Hurricane Helene.

But after working through months and months of all of that, I finally in January, started producing new content for Truth Love Parent, which is all about how to be a biblical parent.

We are finishing up a series called Parenting youg Children to Adulthood.

And we're going to be starting a series called Parenting Sorrowful Children.

You know, Aaron, I just wish you would quit.

I mean, how.

How to Stop Family Strife for Good.

It'd be good if you could explain that, folks.

What I'm actually doing is referring to the book he just mentioned.

His.

His book is called Quit how to Stop Family Strife for Good.

You.

It is available on Amazon, and so you may want to check that out if you have any family strife you want something you can read in only a hundred pages.

There you go.

And so the last that we have here, but not the least, is Melissa Lex, Tell Us how to Be Thoroughly Equipped.

Thank you, Andrew.

Thoroughly Equipped is the name of my podcast.

That's correct.

It is a podcast dedicated to looking at women's ministry and the teaching that is sneaking into it, or let's say, the kind of bad teaching that's sneaking into it.

And we just been kind of wrapping up these last last couple episodes looking at the if Gathering, I took a very deep, deep dive into very, very popular Jenny Allen's ministry called the if Gathering.

And we are now for anybody who's interested, well, especially a woman, if you're interested in learning about this ministry and what they teach, we're going to start diving into how they bring in Christian mysticism through teaching women to incorporate spiritual disciplines.

So that's going to be the next little sect that we're dealing and diving into.

Yep.

And listener, if your church is hosting the if Gathering, please listen to the entire series and then make your pastor listen, too.

Yeah, if you.

If you think the if Gathering is just an innocent women's ministry, that would be wrong.

That's what I learned from your podcast.

It's really bad.

Yes.

In great detail.

You can go into.

So what we wanted to do tonight in the episode is to talk about evangelism.

Now we actually have on the Christian podcast community a couple of podcasts that are dedicated to the topic of evangelism.

We are hoping that they will come in here sooner rather than later, but we'll see.

One is he has not been recording in a bit, but all the episodes are still there.

And great is Roman's Road from with Eddie Roman.

And then the other is Gospel Talks podcast with Jeff Musgrave and George.

I can't pronounce his last name properly, but I think it's Pinkada, but I probably butchered it, but he's not here to correct me.

So.

But we have those that are dedicated to the topics of evangelism.

And though those are strictly really focused on that, it's not the only ones that we have.

We have others that focus quite a bit on evangelism.

It's just not the only.

The only thing they do.

And so if you go to ChristianPodcastCommunity.org go to the shows, you can actually choose what you want to listen to.

The one other I'll just mention is stop and think about it.

That's one that is not solely about evangelism, but focuses on it a lot.

So let's begin with our discussion with Eve.

What you had sent out to everybody.

Let's start with the question that you had here is, can godly lifestyle or charity be considered part of evangelism, or is it only, quote, confrontational, unquote, with verbal gospel presentation?

In other words, this really is the how this is when we talk about evangelism, Sort of the how or the what, you know, And I think at the core of this is whether doing good deeds, feeding the poor, clothing the poor, putting, you know, going on a short term missions trip where you're building a home.

Is that the gospel or is it.

And I don't, I know you put it in quotes.

Confrontational.

But I think the idea there is just.

Does it have to be where we're communicating with words?

We have to be in someone's face, kind of the cold evangelism.

So I'll, we'll go around and, you know, I'd like to just start with everybody answering with what you think kind of constitutes what evangelism is.

You.

If you have a more you want to add from the, the bit that we read in the question, go ahead, but I'll start, I'll start with Derek.

All right.

Yeah.

I think that evangelism is loving someone to Jesus in that we start with actions because that expresses.

That expresses something that is connecting.

It allows us to connect in a way that words so often don't.

Body language is super important.

And so when it comes to giving and charity and just living love to other people, that's where we got to start.

I think eventually words have to happen, right?

Like that's, that's something that is also very important.

But I think that we have to start with loving people if we have the opportunity to, to, to have a long term type of loving on somebody that, that I think produces disciples and which is the, really the goal of evangelism in the first place.

All right, Aaron, what are your thoughts?

I think this is a, it's a hot button.

We see a big pendulum swing on this where some people are saying the only type of evangelism that's any good is door or street preaching.

That very direct in your face.

Then of course, we've seen a whole generation of individuals coming up and saying, you know, I never get the quote right, but something like, you know, by all means share the gospel and when necessary, use your words.

And so this idea that the gospel can be shared without actually saying anything, I believe that I don't want to be so trite to say that the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Maybe it's more accurate to say that the truth is just different.

But when I have this conversation, I always want to go to Matthew 5, 16.

This is the passage where God's telling us to be light and to be salt, right?

And people on both sides say, yeah, salt and light.

And I can be salt and light by working In a food kitchen.

Someone else tells me, salt and light.

Only way to be salt and light is by standing on a corner preaching the gospel.

But what I think is interesting is this, is that in verse 16, it says, Let your lights shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works.

Okay?

So they're seeing my good works.

My light shining is them seeing my good works.

And if we stop right there, it's really easy to fall on that side that says, just work in the food kitchen or go do medical missions.

But you don't necessarily have to talk about God.

Let the light shine through the good works.

But here's the key for me.

They're going to see your good works, and then they're going to have a response to that.

And the verse says, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

Here's the key, my friends.

They can't glorify your Father who's in heaven unless they know that he is your Father.

Okay?

They're not going to be.

They're not going to see your good works and say, oh, that must be because of God is in them.

And this word glorify means they're going to think right about your father in heaven because.

Because they see your good works.

So it's impossible.

It's absolutely impossible for.

Because, I mean, we see people all over the world, I mean, living here in North Carolina during Hurricane Helene, lots of people, lots of people who are.

Who hate God and lots of people don't believe in God have done really wonderful things for the people affected by this storm.

Nobody's looking at those people and glorifying the Father.

We Christians are because we understand God's sovereignty.

But the unsaved world isn't looking at those people and going, oh, they're doing those good things because they're followers of Christ.

They're just saying they're doing good things because they're good people.

Only way for someone to see the good works that I'm doing, the light that I'm shining, and come to the conclusion that that is due to the fact that I'm a child of God, is they have to know.

And I have to have told them.

I have to have shared with them I am what my relationship is with God in order for them to come to that conclusion.

Melissa, what are your thoughts?

I definitely agree with both of what the gentleman said, that we.

We can start with our works, that our works should be a beaming light that exemplifies what we believe about God especially.

But I.

I do Think see a problem in today's evangelicalism.

And I, I thought it was funny that Aaron mentioned the quote that I'm just.

I had to look it up because it was the first thing I thought of, which is, you know, he said, preach the gospel at all times and if necessary, use words.

I just remember that being presented to me, and me thinking, well, yeah, no, even non believers, you know, have good works.

Not.

They're not good because they're not done in faith.

But to somebody who doesn't know any better is seen as good works.

So I always have this idea that if it's.

There's a distinction when it comes to evangelism opposed to just good works.

And that distinction is the actual presentation of the gospel.

And nowadays we have this kind of idea that evangelism is telling people about what God has done in our lives.

I recently just had a podcast where we.

We went over Sadie Robertson's message and she said that we need to pay attention to what God is doing in our own lives right now so that he can use our testimonies, because our testimonies are what change hearts.

And I think that's what a lot of people think evangelism is.

So, you know, they can do the good works.

They can talk about God and what he's done in their lives, but that's not the gospel.

And so I do take it a little further and say that it is a presentation of specific words, and not just any words, but.

Or not just any testimony either, but a specific testimony that relates to Christ, what he did on the cross for our sins and the righteousness he gives to us through faith.

So I probably, like, I agree with what everything was said already and then just say, well, to me, evangelism would have to include the presentation of the gospel, specifically.

Eve, your thoughts?

I'd have to say I agree with everybody so far, but one of the things that I think of like that same quote came to my mind when we were talk starting this.

But I think that when we talk about living the Christian life, I think that that in itself is a testimony to what God has done to you.

But it's not the gospel.

And you can't sever your witness away from your testimony, but at the same time, your testimony is also not your witness.

And they go hand in hand.

It's like if you're sharing the gospel, you don't want to be a totally rotten public sinner who doesn't care about people.

You to have a good testimony.

That is, that gives you, I guess, the Moral high ground to share the gospel.

But it's not something that is going to share the gospel without actually presenting the gospel.

So I think they kind of go hand in hand.

If you're not doing charitable works, if you're not publicly presenting the truth of God and how that changes lives and the way you present yourself publicly, then you probably are not going to effectively share the gospel.

But you have to actually share the gospel.

Yeah.

So the quote that you guys are referring to is attributed to Francis Assisi, though I believe in my research that it was not original with him.

The idea of it is in the way it's used today.

It's in its origin.

It was used by at least Francis of Assisi.

When he says, you know, preach the gospel and if necessary, use words.

Was the idea that.

Not that we don't need to use words, it's the idea that we do have to use words, but that our character or demeanor should match our words because the actions speak louder than the words.

That was the idea of it.

People use it today to say, well, we could just do good deeds and people are going to know it's because we're Christian.

There's a big difference between that.

You know, I would say with the.

The question that, the way it's worded, I would say I would disagree.

And I know out of the group here, I'm probably the most known for my evangelism.

I do open air evangelism.

So I.

Yes, I've spent decades standing on a box in New York City and Seaside Boardwalk in New Jersey for decades standing on a box and preaching the gospel.

So I've done the confrontational evangelism.

But I don't think that it has to only be a verbal gospel presentation because I think tracts is a perfectly fine way to share the gospel.

Can you give clothes and food?

Well, that's not the gospel.

But if you're sharing a gospel track with it, sharing the gospel with it, then then that's fine.

If you're using that as kind of the hook to bring people in to share so that you can share the gospel.

But if you.

If you don't actually share the message in some form, whether written or verbal, then you're not really sharing the gospel, you might feel better.

I have a little story with the idea of short term missions.

I used to go to church with a guy.

He and his wife were born in St.

Lucia and we did a missions trip to St.

Lucia.

We went into a school and did a VBS with all of the kids in the School, hundreds of kids.

And we went down, we did a vbs, we shared the gospel.

We then afterwards would go into the streets and I would do open air.

And so we did that.

We are sharing the gospel.

He had a very interesting take.

He was very much against what most people do on short term admissions trips where they go to St.

Lucia to build a home for someone.

Interesting thing for Americans to think about.

His perspective, why the reason he was so against it is because he said Americans and their short term missions destroys countries like St.

Lucia.

Now I want you to think like how is that?

Very simple.

He said everyone in St.

Lucia lets their house get as decrepit as possible because they know every summer the Americans will come in if they have the house in the worst condition.

The Americans will come in and for free, give them a new home.

And so they're not looking to hear the gospel, they're looking to get the material things of, of earth.

And they're actually letting their house get in a worst possible state so that they hope their house would be the one selected.

And the thing is he would say that people would come in and do that.

So now people have a new material house but no gospel message.

So I, I would, I would say, as you guys said, there's got to be some presentation, but I don't think it has to be just verbal.

So looking at that, right?

So we, we think about that.

Let's, let's talk about methods because I've, we've mentioned a couple different message that.

But Aaron has a question or a comment.

Well, I wanted to clarify just a little bit because I think it's really important to bring all this together, especially with the point that I was making, lest it be under misunderstood the gospel.

If we're talking about, we're talking about evangelism, where we're telling a person how they can have a relationship with the God and Creator, then yes, the gospel, who God is, who they are, the penalty for sin, the.

The consequences of rejecting him.

What is it to be a follower in Christ?

All of that has to be shared.

I bless anyone who think that, you know, I tell somebody that I'm a, I'm a follower of Christ and I'm a really nice person and they must be like, wow, he is such a nice person.

He is so cool under pressure.

It must be because he's a Christian that doesn't tell them how they can become a Christian, how they can become a follower of Christ.

So I would say that no, even that in and of itself is not enough.

And I guess when I was sharing that, my assumption, which is probably a poor thing to.

It's always bad to assume is, was that as I'm telling people that I am a Christian, that I am a follower of the God of the Bible, that as part of that conversation, yes, I'm also sharing the gospel.

So I wanted to be clear on that point because when Melissa said she wanted to take it a step further, I'm going, oh no, I agree with her too.

I think she's 100.

All right.

The gospel message needs to be there if first going for it to be evangelism.

And I knew, I knew you would.

I know that's what you meant.

It was just that, you know, thank you.

I appreciate my podcast.

I just did my podcast, so I knew that there was something that had to go further, not from what you said, but from what I was researching on my own.

So.

Yeah, well, we have to have some disagreement.

This is a theology throwdown.

We have to disagree.

But in love and charity.

Right?

But we, we probably.

There probably will be.

Go ahead, Melissa.

I was just gonna say I can purposely disagree just to play devil's advocate for you.

You want to advocate for the devil?

I don't want that.

So I think where we might see more disagreement, and this is where I wish that the guys from, you know, Gospel Exchange is the ministry name, but their, their podcast is Gospel Talks Podcast.

I, I really wish they were here because I think they would probably disagree with, with me on this one.

But when we talk about methods.

So the question we had is what are the best and most effective methods?

Now that's going to be the tricky part.

So it's not just what are, are okay methods, but what are the best and effective methods.

Some examples are unsolicited door to door visitation or open air street preaching, church programs, pageants, things like that for the community, leaving tracks in the restrooms or with tips.

Why, why those two?

I wonder why?

You know, but so, so let's talk about what each of us think is the most effective and let's say the most effective and the best.

But I think we're all going to say we all should talk about what's biblical, right?

So I think there's some things we could say are not biblical in the methods.

And so this time, I guess since I went last, I'll start and cause all the ruckus so you guys can all disagree.

But no, as I said, I do open air evangelism.

So I get up on a street, I preach the gospel to Complete strangers, not a prophet problem.

I hand out tons of tracks, yet maybe I leave them in bathrooms or leave them with tips, but I leave them kind of everywhere.

I leave a lot of tracks and I have a lot of different tracks to leave out in different places.

When we say what's the best or most effective, I'm going to say I don't know.

And the reason I say that is because the best may be different based on the circumstance.

Some people, maybe a one on one conversation.

Some people, and I've seen this when I do open air.

I watched a guy who listened to me do open air for about two, two and a half hours and stood there paying attention the entire time.

As soon as someone gave, reached over to give him a gospel tract, he just turned and walked away.

But he would stay and listen to the preaching.

But he didn't want to actually engage with anybody.

So which one's best?

Well, it's, it's going to depend on the person which.

What's the most effective?

I'm going to go, I don't know.

Because to be honest with you, I have no idea how many people may have gotten saved by me doing open air.

Now I can probably reach more people with the gospel doing open air than I can one on one.

Just, just sheer numbers.

But is it more effective that way?

Maybe for some, but I really, I'll argue that none of us can know what's the most effective way, you know, so.

So really, you know, friendship, evangelism, is that a bad thing?

I'm going to say it is if you never share the gospel.

And any, any method that doesn't share the gospel is a bad method.

Right?

That's kind of based off the first question.

If you don't get to the gospel, it's okay to make friends with someone, to build a relationship with someone.

I can build a relationship within minutes.

It's not a really strong, long lasting one, but you can, you can build a quick relationship with someone.

Is it better to have a longer lasting relationship?

Of course.

But you know, sometimes faithfulness could be.

We used to go to the local mall and they only allowed us in once a month.

But we had my ministry that I work for, striving for eternity.

We had my church that I was pastoring, Chinese American Bible Church.

We had a friend of mine, mine who had a church, he would come with us and he had the Great Commission Bible Church.

So we had three organizations that we were able to get there.

So we were there three weekends a month.

And so we had teenagers that we'd put up this IQ test.

We couldn't do open air there, but we'd hand out tracks.

I put this IQ test and everyone would fail the test.

So they, they thought it was fun.

So they'd always bring other people to fail the test.

But that IQ test would be the way we transitioned to the gospel.

Here's the interesting thing.

We had all these teenagers that used to just, they would ridicule us and mock us week in and week out.

And they would take the test and they would, you know, they just thought it was a big joke until one of the kids in high school died.

And we got there on a Saturday night.

We weren't there the weekend before.

And about 16 teenagers come up to us.

Like, we were looked for you last weekend on Friday night.

Last weekend on Saturday.

We looked for you last night.

We've been waiting for you guys to.

We need to talk to you.

And me and my friend Pat were like, what's up?

They said a friend of theirs died in school and they have all these counselors coming in and giving them grief counseling, but they know they're not telling them the truth.

And they literally said this.

They said, we need to know from you guys what will happen after we die.

Now that was a relationship that occurred because we were just faithfully going to the same place every week.

Week.

I'd argue that that built a relationship and a rapport with them.

They knew who was going to tell them the truth, not just what they wanted to hear.

So a lot there for you guys to agree, disagree with.

I'll go with Melissa, we'll go next with you.

I completely agree with pretty much everything you said there, because I was.

When I read this question, I had to think about the times that I've evangelized in my own life.

And, and I realized, well, I've never actually, even with my own kids, literally brought, brought them to, you know, an example of my own.

The way I came to know Christ and had this like, sit down prayer with my parents at the young age of 4 or 6 or.

I don't remember what age it was.

But you know, we approach it differently with our kids, where I will feel more secure about their salvation when they decide to make it their own and be baptized and, and, and I see them produce fruits and things like that.

And they're still young and that's not there yet, let's just say.

So that's, that's.

I'm in the stages of evangelizing my children.

So when I came to this thought about methods.

Everything for me and my life has been about planting seeds with people I've talked to.

Presenting the gospel to me is planting the, the seed, but I don't get to see its fruit.

I don't.

I haven't ever had an example in my life where somebody said, yes, I want to accept this, and then I pray them or, or, or they, I get a chance to invite them to church.

And, and I, I wonder if that's just because I've been around Christians all my life.

Those little times that I have been able to evangelize, it's been with, you know, family members who are not technically Christian.

And so it's always been these, you know, continually displaying the gospel through my actions and yes, planting the, giving them the gospel when, when it comes up.

So I can't say when the best and most effective, which is why I agree with you.

But I.

What, like again, I was thinking about these methods.

When it comes to someone like myself who is a stay at home mom, who's homeschooling, who's just around kids, who's around family all the time, those are the only people I really can evangelize and talk to because of my environment.

So for me, evangelism falls with evangelizing my children, evangelizing my family members who are not saved, things like that.

So I don't know if that makes a bit of a difference when it comes to method.

Well, I'm sure it does.

Actually makes a very big difference when it comes comes to methods used.

I don't, I'm not doing the open air evangelism, you know, or knocking on doors.

I might participate in a church program, most of its ministry work and.

Yeah, so I don't know.

Well, you bring up a good point, is we're in different stages of life where we may approach things differently.

You know, we.

You're in a stage where most of your time is with your children and that's who you're evangelizing, you know, so.

Right, that, that does play into it.

But you know, are there methods that you think are more effective than others and are there things you think that are unbiblical?

Unbiblical?

Well, yeah, definitely, when you start to talk about the way you present it.

But methodology, as long to me as it has the gospel.

I don't know.

I don't know that I thought about it very deeply enough to actually see any consequences from having an unbiblical method.

Okay, Derek, what about you?

I actually want to bring up two things.

One, the idea of evangelism is something I, I teach a spiritual gifts class at our church and I, I fully believe that we are to, to do all of these things, right?

Like at some point some people have that spiritual gift of evangelism versus some people don't necessarily.

Right?

That doesn't give the people that don't have that gift a pass to not do it.

But some people are equipped by the Holy Spirit to do it more often more effectively.

So that's the first thing.

And feel free to disagree all you want, but, or expand on that.

But the other thing is I think that if whatever the method is that you use doesn't lead to follow up.

So like, not saying that, like when you're doing open air evangelism, you know, that whole like, like, you know, somebody gives their life to Christ right then and there, I'm not talking about that, but I'm saying like, when someone gives their life to Christ, if there is not follow up with them, I think we've at least done them a disservice.

So I would say that's probably not a great biblical way of doing it.

So I would say that hooking them up with, whether that's a Bible or getting them plugged into a local church, giving them some instruction beyond just the presentation of the, the of the gospel, I think that we've done those people a disservice.

But everything that.

Yeah, I mean, I'm not, I don't know that there's a right way or wrong way to necessarily do it.

I, I think that an unbiblical way would be the approach of hate.

So there's a lot of people that, that will go out and like for instance, Planned Parenthood, right?

Like when you're, when you've got the people that are standing at the abortion clinics telling people that, that God hates them for having an abortion, I think that is a very ineffective, unbiblical way of approaching the gospel.

But I think that loving those people through a hard time is a very effective way to approach the gospel with them.

So I think that if it comes to whatever it is, if it has not love, it's a noisy banging gong, right?

Like the, like Corinthians says.

So that's, that's my take.

Eve, do you want to voice your thoughts?

Yeah, I was, I was actually thinking on this maybe slightly different perspective than some of you.

I'm not an evangelist.

I don't, other than my podcast and, you know, ministries at churches, I don't do a ton of evangelism, but One of the things that I kind of think of on this topic is that when Christ gave us the Great Commission, he didn't tell us to go into the world and share the gospel.

He told us to go into the world and make disciples.

And disciples, discipleship is a, it isn't a, here's how you get to heaven, it's a building a Christian from it's.

And the saving is not on us.

And I think we have to remember that when we're sharing the gospel, that it's not us that does the saving, it's God.

And we plant the seeds and, and God is the one that, that makes those seeds sprout.

But he gave us the commission to turn all these little baby Christians into thriving Christians who have a ministry walk with the Lord.

And, and so I think that my concern with street preaching, and I'm definitely not against it, it's not something I do, but I am concerned about the follow up, as Derek brought up.

It's like if you're sharing, if you're leaving tracks with people sharing the gospel and having somebody, you know, say that they have made a decision on the spot, but there's no follow up, there's no discipleship, then how do we know that they're really saved?

That is, you know, it's between them and God, obviously.

But if they're not growing and becoming an active member of a fellowship of believers, part of the body of Christ, then have we actually fulfilled the Great Commission?

And so I would say that that is probably the necessary step in evangelism is making sure that anybody who comes to a saving knowledge of the Lord is followed up with and that there's discipleship.

Well, and that's a fair critique of, you know, open air evangelism.

I, I would agree.

The, I would say that the first, the Great Commission is to make disciples, not to evangelize.

Okay.

Evangelism is the first step.

Right.

Because you can't teach them all things Christ has taught you if they don't know Christ.

So that's step one is, is evangelism.

You're right.

I mean, there is things people can do.

There's some people who just, they're just there to preach.

They just share the gospel.

They're not there for any follow up.

I mean, if someone comes up, if I'm talking with someone and they pray, I'm going to want to have contact.

I give my contact to people all the time.

All my gospel tracts have my contact and I encourage them to contact me.

People have criticized me and I'm going to say, probably rightly, that maybe I should be more forthright in trying to get their contact information to reach out to them.

I guess I shy away from that because I just think, at least when I'm on the street, people get nervous if you're asking for their contact information.

So I feel better giving them mine.

And so you bring up, I think, a valid point with the way that I am most known for doing evangelism.

I think it's a valid argument, a valid critique.

And so it's something that I think we have to take into account.

And like Derek said, we can't just stop at the gospel.

Is that fair enough?

Say something to that real quick.

Well, you just did, but say something more.

Yeah, okay.

I think that critique could go both ways to what you're saying about people have told you to be more forthright about getting their contact information, information, something recently.

And once again, this is just my thoughts in it that I have come to, at least in my own personal life, is that there's.

Giving someone your information allows them the opportunity to, you know, get a hold of you.

But if you're, if you're asking for information, there's only so much time that you have that you can reach out and be effective.

So I think that the people who are going to contact you, it's, it's more effective for your time and your energy for you to say, hey, if you're interested in this, if you want to know more, get ahold of me.

Than trying to constantly be putting, you know, putting yourself out there to other people, contacting them when maybe they don't really want it, even if they give you their number or their email or whatever it is.

I think that that is one of those, like, I'm not going to say it's a waste of time because if one comes, then, then glory be to God.

But I think that when it comes to ministry and evangelism and anything really in our lives, there's that zero sum game that we're playing, and that is what is the most effective use of your time.

And I would worry that if you're spending most of your time reaching out to people who may not actually be interested, even though they're willing to give you the information, I think that that might be less effective use of your time than even just putting out even more information out there.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I, I, but I do think that's a valid argument that we have to, we should be seeking to do discipleship.

And we should, hey, like someone, I mean, I've had where some people, you know, pray, they want to pray and receive Christ.

Okay.

And, and by the way, I, I don't think this was in the questions, but, but we could talk about the sinner's prayer.

I, I am, I'm against, like, doing the sinner's prayer.

Maybe this is kind of on to the next point of presentation, but I don't know what you guys think about the sinner's prayer.

I, I, I am not in favor of, hey, repeat this after me.

Okay.

Now you're saved because you said the magic words, right?

That's that Islam teaches that say this, these words in front of three witnesses and you're now a Muslim.

The I like how Ray Comfort says it.

If you have, if someone's committed adultery on their spouse and they go to the spouse and it's like they want to show their repentance, so they have a friend telling them what to say.

I'm really sorry.

I'm really sorry.

I'll never do it again.

I'll never do it again.

The spouse doesn't think it's sincere.

Right.

What I've done with people is I'll just say, how about you pray, pour your heart out to God in repentance, when I know they understand what repentance is, and then I will pray for you.

Afterwards, I listened to their prayer to see did they really understand the message that I shared with them.

Well, and I would argue that that scripture says that it's not just knowing and confessing, but it's being known by Jesus is what gets you there.

I mean, Matthew 7, 21:23 talks about, you know, there's going to be a lot of people who, you know, did all these things, but I, I didn't know them.

They didn't know me.

I will professor them depart from me.

I never knew you.

And so I think that part of that, that actual, like salvation, you know, that that actual understanding and coming to know who Jesus is, that that gospel message presentation or whatever is also, it has to be discipleship involved in that because it has to be them getting to know who Jesus is more than just hearing about him.

Does that make sense?

Yes.

And so that kind of leads us to the idea of the presentation.

Oh, go ahead, Aaron.

Oh, well, I'm sorry.

Yeah, I was, I wanted to jump in on this.

I was thinking long and hard.

So many great things were said, so many different directions could be taken.

But I want to share an interaction I had with you with this individual.

And I want to share it with the listeners because I think it goes back, Andrew, to what you originally said about it.

It's hard to say which is the best because in certain situations for Melissa, you know, parenting her children is going to look different than street preaching.

It'd be funny to see Melissa stand up on a soapbox and start, you know, get a little speaker out and start street preaching to her kids.

But I don't know that that's going to be the best case scenario.

So what is the best?

How do we know what the best is?

I was talking with a seminary professor once.

I'm a biblical counselor.

He, he's a seminary professor and he works in his church and he works with college age individuals, college and career, marriage.

And he was talking about how he and his wife were trying to figure out how you can tell in a relationship that you're in that place where you can tell those hard truths.

Now he's referring primarily to professing Christians and giving counsel and advice and having to say, make hard observations about the person's life.

And he said, my wife and I, basically, to sum it all up, came to the conclusion that people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care.

That was basically what they came up with.

And I said, okay, well, I'd like to posit my experience.

I want to put this in there because my experience goes exactly against what it was you just said.

Not that both can exist, but my experience proves that that's not the only answer.

My experience is I will get a call, an email from a, from an individual who is a complete stranger.

They're coming to me for biblical counsel.

And on a very short period of time, in less than 60 minutes minutes, that individual will be telling me things, confiding in me things and allowing me to say to them things that they have never shared with anybody else.

And they're allowing me to say to them things that they would never accept from anybody else.

And I said, explain to me how that happens.

He stopped and goes, wow, I never really imagined that.

That type of a thing does happen.

I'm not really sure why.

I said, here's, here's what I have been able to come away with.

Trust is the most seminal part of who we are.

God created us to believe things.

We either believe God in his word or we believe our own way and do what's right in our own eyes.

Belief, faith and trust are all synonymous concepts in the scripture.

And people choose to trust lots of different people.

All throughout their day.

We have advertisements, we have political talking heads, we have rioters, we have friends, we have loved ones, we see things in a movie, right?

And we either are choosing to trust people who themselves are in fact trustworthy, or quite frequently, history is replete with examples of people who trust people who they should not be trusting.

Those people are not trustworthy.

The school teacher.

It was amazing me how many times I tell everyone, okay, get out your pencils, it's time for a quiz.

I'd have some kids say to me, yeah, but my friend said there wasn't going to be a quiz today.

And I'm like, yeah, but last week I told you there would be a quiz.

Who are you choosing to trust?

Right?

So these individuals who come to me for biblical counseling when we're in that position, they have chosen to trust me.

And that's really what it is.

It's just a choice.

Now, does that mean that, you know that loving a person and pouring into them doesn't play a part in the speed at which they come to trust me?

No.

I mean, sure, everyone has different criteria for what it's going to take to trust now when it for all of us, we can just choose right here, right now to trust things that are biblical and truthful, or we can, and we can choose to reject lies, or we can do the opposite.

Okay, this is a human experience.

We do this all day, every day.

It's a lot easier than we like to make it out to be.

But yes, everyone has their own personal criteria.

So when.

I'm sorry about that, my dog just shook her collar.

But when it comes to knowing what is the best way to share the gospel with these individuals, it's going to come down to how can I be in a position that they are going to trust that what I'm saying is actually true and loving, AKA for their benefit.

It used to be that if a person came and knocked on your door and said they were from a church, the person on the other side of the door had inherent trust for whatever that person said.

Said.

It used to be in America that if a person was standing up on a street corner and had a Bible open, that the people walking by had an inherent trust of what they heard.

Society and our culture has changed.

In fact, I would say to a much higher degree, if something like that is happening, there's a far greater chance that there is going to be mistrust from those people.

You're knocking on my door.

Why are you here?

What's that guy?

What's that crazy person over there talking about, does that mean we don't do those things?

No, I'm not saying we don't do those things.

I have to speak the truth in love regardless of whether the person trusts me or not.

But I think that for us individually, as we're interacting with people, we need to be able to, to recognize the fact that this person either is going to trust what I have to say or they're not.

And depending on if I just keep coming to this person and they are not trusting what I have to say, a question has to be asked of myself.

Well, why not?

I'm speaking truth.

I think I'm being loving.

What can I do to help them to realize that what I'm sharing with them is actually true?

And as you look at it, that perspective, I think it might help us a little bit more to determine what is going to be the best way to share the gospel in individual situations.

Can I add something to that?

Because he made me think of something there.

One of the things that's not listed in the methods is what we're seeing now, more days, technology, things like podcasts and YouTube.

And I, I think it's funny that he mentions it.

Well, not funny.

I think it's insightful that he mentions trust.

I think everybody nowadays, especially when we see everything going on with politically, we are desperate for people who speak the truth.

And I think you find that people, or at least I have found because of the podcast that I do, I speak the truth and I hold to biblical authority.

And then I have people that do email me just like in a way like what Aaron described and are looking for advice and they're looking for the truth.

And I think there's some, something to that more than just the relationship at the essential foundation for somebody being opening or open to receiving the God gospel.

Is that trust?

Yeah, that's a good point.

I mean, we, all of us here are podcasters and we didn't mention podcasting as a means of sharing the gospel, but it is.

And, and it literally, I know with my podcast has reached every single country around the world.

So it's kind of neat to think of that.

I mean, there's people, you know, there will be people I think we might meet in heaven that listened to our podcast and got saved.

We had no knowledge of it.

You know, I think that's going to be one of the neat things in heaven.

I, I think just, just picture walking up to Paul and try to explain to Paul what a podcast is and how many people you were able to reach around the world.

You're gonna, Paul's probably gonna be like, oh, man, I wish that I could have done that, like reaching that many people.

Right?

I mean, we don't think about that.

We, we actually have an opportunity to share the gospel with far more people than, than someone like Paul could reach.

Now obviously Paul reaches far more in the written word of God, but that.

But it does lead us social media to that though.

Andrew.

Well, I mean, look, if you think about it, there's, there are more people that will listen to this podcast episode alone own than some people ever share the gospel to.

Right?

In.

In one podcast, we could reach thousands of people.

And most people don't share the gospel with thousands of people.

Right, so, so we'll have to make sure we explain what the gospel is before we're done, therefore.

But let's talk about the presentation because it's.

We've kind of hit on this a bit and the question that we have here is, must the gospel be presented in a one size, fits, fits all format?

Must one package the gospel to fit the target audience or demographic?

Can one package the gospel in such a target audience without compromising it?

So this is really the question of when we're presenting, is it just, hey, here's the gospel message and you present it this way, or is it that we customize it for specific people?

Now, now, when we talk about that, I'll throw this in.

Nowadays we have people that saying, well, if you're going to present the gospel to someone who's black, you have to present it in a way that blacks would understand it versus someone who is Hispanic.

So when we talk about this, must it be one size fits all, or must it be specific to a demographic or not?

Or is there a way to package it up for an audience that doesn't compromise it?

I will start.

Eve, you're kind of didn't talk too much.

We'll start with you this time.

All right.

Well, I would say first of all, before we head into presentation, that as I said before, we're not the ones who do the saving.

And so the ground that the seed is thrown on is determined.

The readiness of that soil is determined by the Holy Spirit and by God and not us.

So the presentation of the gospel is not so much dependent on the people hearing, but the preparation of the soil that the seed is being thrown on.

So I feel that we have to be sensitive to the fact that when we throw the seeds out, some of it's going to fall on unready ground and it may not spring forth.

And the person who, the Holy Spirit has prepared that heart and they're desperate to hear it.

I'm not entirely sure the presentation is going to matter as much if the soil is ready for the seed.

Those of us who are perhaps not as polished in our gospel giving as someone like Andrew may fumble the gospel when we present it.

And yet God will have that soil prepared to receive that seed regardless of how polished we are at presenting the gospel.

It's his determination as to whether whether that seed is going to be fruitful or not.

And I think that takes a lot of the pressure off of, you know, Christians who are scared to, to do gospel presentations because if, if they believe that, that they can fail at presenting the gospel, that they can do something wrong and, and then someone's going to be failed to be saved because they presented the gospel the wrong way, then that, that makes it, it harder for those of us who are unsure of our gospel presentation skills.

And so I think that remembering that it's not us that does the saving and that God prepares the soil will help us know that even if we fumble the gospel, God's going to prepare the soil for it.

Yeah.

Before we go on to Melissa, let me just interject and say the idea of being polished is more about practice.

I'm saying this because people will say, oh, I can't share the gospel like you can, Andrew.

I've been doing it for four decades.

There's a difference there.

It's not that I'm really good at it.

I've had a lot more practice than many people.

I went for many decades where I made a decision that I was going to share the gospel every day with someone.

Someone.

And for over two decades, I shared the gospel every single day with someone.

Whether it was in a gospel tract or some other form.

It's.

It really is just the practice.

It, it.

So if anyone like is with like, when you hear you say, if you're like, well, I'm not polished, that just means we got to practice more.

You know, it's.

We only get better if we practice it.

But.

All right, Melissa, I'll let you go.

Well, regards to the question.

It is a one size fits all format.

All, all men are sinners.

All men need reconciliation with God.

Whether you're black, white, Hispanic, whether you were born in the 1800s or the 1920s or the 1960s and or are in our 21st century, or you're often 2035 when AI has become our government, it doesn't matter.

Everybody is Is a sinner in need of reconciliation with God.

And everybody needs to trust in the only way.

So, yeah, there's.

It is a one size fits all, in my opinion.

I see toward the end you saved yourself.

There you were giving the women a pass.

You're just saying the men are sinners.

But then you said, oh, okay.

So, no.

Yes, let me push back.

So do you think that if we were to be more focused on specific demographics, would that be sinful or would that fit into your one size fits.

All focus on demographics?

If we were to, To.

To focus on a particular target culture or demographic, you know, do we.

Do we cater a message to people?

Is that.

Is that unbiblical then?

Or could that fit into your one size fits all?

When you're saying.

I guess what.

When you say one size fits all, are you talking about the message itself or the presentation?

Oh, okay.

Yeah, I see what you're saying.

Yeah, the message itself.

Like if you decide, like, when you say presentation, I am thinking of different cultural themes, maybe like, you know, through some artwork.

And the artwork might be Asian and cultural background.

Or, you know, you can.

It's still the same story, but the art might be different.

The art form might be different, but, yeah, it's the story, I guess.

So then I guess I would say the presentation could be different.

So, yeah, that's a good.

Thank you for bringing that up, because I wasn't thinking in the way, like, how it might be.

I'm specifically trying to think that it's a story.

It's not a story, but it's a true truth that is conveyed, a certain historical truth that is conveyed, but it can be portrayed in different artistic forms.

You could do it through theater.

I don't know, honestly, how well is it displayed in certain art forms or how well is it displayed in certain cultures?

I'd have to think about that a little more, I think.

Okay.

Derek, what.

What are your thoughts?

Can I jump?

Oh, well, Aaron, if you want to jump in, go ahead.

Right ahead.

Just cut.

Just to respond, you know, Eve said.

I know.

I'm just going to cut you right off.

I'm just going to jump in and say, what about me?

No, I think Eve would agree with this.

And Eve, if you don't, I'd love to.

I'd love to hear if I'm misunderstanding what you said.

When, When Eve was telling us to be.

Don't.

Don't worry.

If we.

We are not the most politest at sharing the gospel, God is going to do the work that we can't do right.

She said that we can't mess it up.

And I agree with that.

I think as she portrayed it.

But I do want to look at it from the other side.

We can mess it up when we're sharing the false gospel.

Again, I think even everyone else would hear would agree.

So we have to make certain.

There's sometimes a fine line between being polished and not having good amount of practice and actually saying something that is untrue true, that is factually wrong about the gospel.

So there is a possibility, if we're not careful, if we are not polished, if we are not careful to know the truths of the gospel, then we do actually potentially run a very high risk of lying to people and giving them a false hope or whatever the case may be.

If it just so happens that it's not just a situation where we're clumsy or we forget all of the details or whatever else, but if we actually say something that's fundamentally not true.

And I think, again, I think Eve totally agrees with that, which something we have to watch out for.

And then to Melissa's point, hold on.

Eve, do you agree with that?

Let's see if you want to assume that she did.

Well, let's see if he does.

Yeah, I agree.

I agree.

Yeah.

There are false gospels out there.

We have to be careful of those.

But, yeah, okay, so now you point to Melissa.

So then.

Yeah, so to Melissa's point, I think I'm understanding what she's saying in that the base basic tenets, the basic, if we could call it plot points, the most fundamental truths of the gospel are going to be applicable and need to be spoken in every situation to every person.

And I think there at the end, maybe she was starting to see a difference in sharing the gospel as the words, as those fundamental ideas versus how we package those ideas.

Not so much in theater or art.

I, I think that the wordless book fails to share the gospel unless somebody's there actually explaining it.

And I think certain paintings and theater presentations in the same way.

Unless it's actually spoken, we're going to miss the mark and people aren't going to hear the gospel.

But I think that we see Christ himself every single time we see him sharing about himself, basically sharing the gospel to various individuals, whether it's the woman at the well, or it was Zacchaeus, or it was Nicodemus.

We do hear him using very, if we could say this way, a very different script.

I don't think Jesus had a script.

Right.

But we see him sharing these truths in very distinct ways that were obviously, because he's God, packaged perfectly for the individual who needed to hear it.

He didn't talk to Nicodemus about being the water of life.

He didn't use that imagery with Nicodemus.

He used other imagery.

And though fundamentally he was giving the same information, he was doing it in very diverse ways.

So as I understood the question, Andrew, and maybe I misunderstood it, I think that the answer has to be yes.

Like when we sharing the gospel, it's probably if we could see them with God's eyes, if we know them to a deeper degree, we are going to slightly approach the metaphors that we use and the pictures that we use to communicate the gospel in a very different way, or even just in the kind of the introductory phase as we're kind of getting them interested in hearing what it is we have to say.

If I sit down with psychology students in secular psychology, I will oftentimes start with why we do as we what we do.

And I will work them through to an understanding for them to realize.

It really comes down to this thing called trust we talked about earlier and belief.

And then we talk about the importance of what is truth, is there absolute truth, so on and so forth.

And as we talk about all those things, then I transition into the gospel.

I'm not going to start that way with everybody.

So I guess that's why my answer to the question would be yes.

It needs to be different depending on the person you're talking to.

Though I agree 100% with Melissa, that the fundamental tenets are going to be the same every time.

Derek, your thoughts?

Yeah.

What we're talking about is the difference between method and message.

I, I like, I like what you guys have said about all that.

I do want to bring up a couple of things.

First, I'm going to go kind of backwards in, in who I'm, you know, responding to.

But one thing that, that Paul writes in Philippians is that basically whether people are preaching Christ out of envy or rivalry or whatever, or goodwill, the most important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached.

So that's important, false gospel aside, because obviously that's something different entirely.

But it's important to know that somebody's motive, motives aren't always in the matter, but that Christ is being preached.

Another thing is, I want to point to also Paul.

I mean, Paul is one of our first examples, our early examples of really this evangelism thing.

And one thing that he says in First Corinthians 9:22.

He points out that I have become all things to all people so that by all means or all possible means, I might save some.

And his example of that is one of the big ones that sticks out to me anyways is that when he is talking to those, those people about, hey look, that unknown God that you've got a statue to, that you've got this, you know, that you worship.

I know this guy.

Let me tell you a little bit about him.

And so it's really important to remember that yes, the message is going to be the same that, that Christ came, as you know, from being God and, and he came here dawn flesh died and was resurrected.

And that is to save you for all eternity.

But the, the, the way that we package that message is going to change drastically from whoever's in front of us.

Well, let's, let's get into an interesting question.

And that could, I think I could be wrong.

I think we are all Baptists here except for Melissa, who's a closet Lutheran.

That was like a joke.

And those who listen to the theology throwdown regularly.

You get the joke.

But she claims she's a closet Lutheran, but she's Baptist.

But I think this would be different for our Presbyterian brothers if we had some Presbyterians.

Here is qualifications of people who could evangelize because there are some groups, and I've seen this within Presbyterianism where to do open air evangelism, they would require that you are in an office within the church of a pastor.

You have to be qualified, ordained for ministry to do open air.

So the question of qualifications is do you think there's a biblical office of evangelists today?

And if so, what is that office?

And can you see that in your view, can anyone do evangelism or is it someone that has to be in an official function of the church?

You know, so in other words, can you have an Internet evangelist that's not tied to a church?

Can, can a lay person go outside of, of a church gathering and be able to evangelize?

Does there have to be accountability to the church?

So let's talk about that.

Derek, we'll start with you this time.

Well, some people would argue against what I'm going to say based on the fact that it was too early in the church founding.

But I mean, Jesus got a bunch of fishermen and said hey, check this out and go carry that message to everybody.

So I would say that that based on principle.

That's kind of silly not to like demean anybody.

And I am recovering Baptist.

I'm not actually A Baptist anymore, but non denominational now.

So, you know, it is what it is.

I can be Baptist light or whatever.

Isn't non denominational just Baptists that don't like the name?

Well, I don't know because I'm not really good at the whole church history thing as far as like in, in the context of Reformation Bible Church, right?

Bible Church is like, well, they're Baptist says that non.

Hawkins says that non denominational is just Baptist with a cooler website.

Hey, I like that, I like that.

Yeah, that's, that's where I'm at with it is it's just like, I mean you, you got these guys who were trained by Jesus himself and sent to go do the same and tell the everybody else the same, right?

You know, like go and tell the whole world.

So I mean, making disciples is like we've said, is important, but it doesn't require you to have some sort of status except for maybe knowing who Jesus is.

You know, like knowing what he's done for us could be the qualification.

But even, even the word Christian is like a little anointed one.

So that to me says that I am qualified simply based on the fact that I have accepted Christ and I'm.

I'm trying strive to live for Him.

Do you think there's an office of an evangelist today?

And if so, what would that office, what would that person be or do.

As far as like official office?

I mean, like I think some people have a spiritual gifting of evangelism and that they are exceptionally effective at it because the Holy Spirit has come in and, and just made them thrive in that situation.

I think that people can hold that office in a church and are paid to do.

But as far as like whether or not that leaves other people out from doing it, I would say no.

I mean there's anybody, anybody and everybody who believes in Christ should be doing it.

I think that is the office of evangelism.

Is that in one form or another?

Whether that's, you know, speaking to your children, speaking on street corners, or loving people to the point of eventually sharing that Jesus died for them, I think that that is the office that we all should be holding.

Aaron, what are your thoughts?

So I don't think that there's an official office of evangelists.

Obviously the same thing as Ephesians 4 tells us there was.

Apostles, evangelists, pastors, teachers.

I believe the first two are not recognized offices in the church today.

I am not scholarly enough onto that point to prove it from the Greek, but it is the conclusion I'VE come to in my brief study.

I do believe that everybody who is a Christian can share their testimony.

Everyone who's a Christian can share the gospel.

Everyone should.

We're supposed to be that light again.

We go back to that salt and light concept.

But I also think that the idea of accountability is very wise.

I think that if we're going to have somebody standing up, especially in a very public way, and preaching the gospel to that degree, maybe not even preaching the gospel, sharing the gospel in that way, then it would be very wise of us to provide accountability for that person in the training and talking to them after the fact, lest they do what we talked about earlier.

Maybe they're just giving the gospel a very poor presentation because they really aren't polished enough or they really aren't.

They don't really grasp it enough, having a hard time answering the questions from the crowd and things like that.

Or lest they say something that's just patently not true, Somebody's up there preaching, hey, we're all children of God, but you need to have a special relationship with the Lord.

Some people might not say, well, the fact that he misspoke about all being children of God isn't the end of the world, but there needs to be somebody there who can share with him why that can be very confusing and not helpful to be preaching.

So I can understand those people who would say, hey, the idea of ordination and the idea of holding an office is part of that accountability, part of that preparation.

I don't believe it needs to go to that extent, but I do think we all need to be careful whether we're sharing the gospel one on one or in a larger crowd.

Melissa, you're up next.

I have a question in regards to this.

When they say office, the.

These positions of offices would have a certain amount of authority?

Well, it depends.

I mean, we have an office, depending on your view, an office of pastor and an office of deacon.

Pastor definitely has a authority, but in my view, deacons would not have a inherent authority from position.

It would be the one that they get from the elders.

So the elders, the pastors, they are the ones with the authority, but they give that authority to deacons.

So if there's an office of evangelism, they could give that authority and maybe.

But, you know, so.

So it depends what your view would be and whether they would have authority.

I mean, do you think they should if there's that position?

Well, I guess I.

I would have to do more research on what they believe that the office of evangelists like what kind of work that entails.

But the reason why I kind of asked this is because right off the bat, I would think my first answer, knowing a little about this, not very much.

So take it with a grain of salt that no, it wouldn't need to be an office.

And.

But when you said that, I go, I immediately thought of people like Rick Warren and things like people like that who conflate preaching and evangelism to justify women preachers.

I mean, that's where mine, My mind went to.

And to me, the verses that they use to justify women preaching are usually verses of women and evangelizing in some way.

You know, like the woman at the well going in, talking, telling the village about Jesus.

And so the.

That is, by the way, that's probably, that's probably the most abuse.

One of the most abused passages is the woman of the world, because everyone makes her either do open air evangelism or she's teaching men.

And it's like.

And yet the passage is descriptive.

It doesn't say anything about what she should have been doing, which exactly.

Oh, yeah, what.

Or she's just saying, come see the man who told me about myself, you know, told me all my sins or, you know, and so it's like to me, women can evangelize.

Based off of what we've said earlier, what evangelism is that it's not like in my example, not just showing my love and not.

Or not just saying the sinner's prayer.

Because I like how you brought that up, because that's how my testimony went and that it's not just bringing someone to Christ, but there's also discipleship and, and you know, the, the methods that we can.

I'm getting mixed up here because my brain's on the, on the women, whether.

Women can you have a podcast about women's ministry.

So.

Okay, but so step back from that.

Let's just think about men, you know, regardless.

Do you think there's a position, an office within the church, or are there only specific people that are qualified to evangelize?

Or can anyone do it?

Anyone can do it.

Yeah, but I almost want to say that that's a detriment to the church to say that only the people in the office of evangelists should evangelize or can.

Okay, Eve, your thoughts.

I think Derek needs to leave, so let's see if he has any sign offs before, before he needs to leave and then I'll share my thoughts.

Okay, Derek, go ahead.

Why don't you sign.

Sign yourself off and share Anything that you want with your podcast or anything you want to let people know about.

All right.

Yeah, I just, I.

First off, I want to say I appreciate the topic of conversation.

I think it's, it's really a healthy thing to talk about because it's, it can be confusing to somebody who's newer and, and it can be a challenge to broach that topic.

And it's kind of intimidating to share the gospel and evangelize.

So hopefully those who are listening, they can see that it's not as scary as it should be, and it's not as hard or difficult as it may seem.

It may be difficult in the moment, but it's not something that you have to have all this training in order to, to do, to, to tell people that Jesus loves them and, and to the extent in which Jesus loves them, so what he went through and such.

So, yeah, we, we have, we're on, we're on YouTube now, which is cool.

Been on YouTube for a little bit.

So we have video podcasts, and we just released a thing called the Rabbit Hole.

And that is just like a.

Just roundtable discussion starting from whatever thoughts we have, and it goes whatever direction.

Every rabbit hole we.

We end up going down.

So that's something I'm really excited about.

A lot of people have.

There's been a lot of traction on that, so go check it out on YouTube.

The truth response.

It's.

It's the Rabbit Hole.

And we've got a Patreon now, too, so, you know, I don't know if we're allowed to, you know, rep that or not, but I did, so go ahead.

Cool.

Yeah.

The Truth Response Patreon.

So thanks for letting me join you guys tonight.

Yeah, no, thanks for coming in.

Thanks for your insight.

Truth Response is a good podcast to be checking out, and the Rabbit Holes ones can get a little long.

Just saying.

But, but great content.

Yeah, it was great content.

I enjoyed it.

I listened in those out every so.

Often, so it was a longer one.

But I, I, you know, I did an hour run and listened to it, so, you know, the run went longer than your podcast, but I listen to triple speed, so there you go.

All right.

Well, good having you, Derek.

Eve, you're.

You're let you take this last part.

Yeah.

So I would definitely agree with most of what Aaron said, actually all of what Aaron said.

But I just wanted to include the fact that kind of going back to my initial problem that I addressed with sharing the gospel without the disciples, I think it's useful when you're doing evangelism, to do it in conjunction with a local body, whether you're visiting or not.

I think that when you're representing the gospel in a public area, it's useful to have somebody local to the people you're sharing the gospel with that you can plug them into to follow up with.

So whether or not it's an office of the church, I do think it is useful to have some accountability when you're sharing the gospel, to pass the discipleship stage onto if you're not able, able to follow up with people who make decisions for Christ.

And I think that that is, you know, if churches are hold themselves more responsible for the sharing of the gospel in their communities, then it helps with that next step of building a believer up and helping them to grow in Christ.

And so I think that it's not an office of the church.

I think it's not just that everyone can share.

I think it's the responsibility of every believer to be sensitive to the openings that God gives us to share the gospel.

Whether we're open air preaching or just living our lives and you know, walking into a store and seeing somebody who needs to hear the gospel, we just.

God provides openings that we need to be sensitive to and prepared to share the gospel with the people that he wants us to share the gospel with.

And but at the same time I do think that it is useful to do that sharing with the understanding that there needs to be plug, plugging these people who hear the gospel and who, who are ready and prepared to make a decision and, and follow Christ, repent and follow Christ that they have a local body to plug themselves into and, and be part of not just a, a solo life in Christ, but that they can plug themselves into a body and, and be discipled.

So I would say that while it's not a, a, a qualific, there's no qualification other than being a saved person who is, has the responsibility as a saved person to spread that God that's that message to other people who need to hear is useful to have a church that's backing that up, if that makes sense.

Yeah, it does.

And you know, maybe as a way of closing before I, I go to you guys to close out, I think an important thing is to say what is the gospel?

We've been talking about evangelism throughout the whole episode here.

And I'll end by saying this, Let me, let me start by saying what I think must be in a gospel presentation.

And then as you guys close out, you could choose whether to disagree or agree with me.

And then I want to explain what the gospel message is.

I think there's certain elements we have to have in a good gospel presentation.

Now, I'm not saying you have to have every element every time.

You could have someone who understands the gospel and so they grew up in church or whatnot.

And so you don't have to share everything because they already have a knowledge of it.

But I think what we do have to communicate if they don't know, what they have to understand is first, first that they violated God's law, they're a sinner, they break God's law.

That breaking of the law is, as Scripture would say, the wages of sin is death.

So the breaking of the law has a consequence to it.

And the consequence is an eternal torment because God's infinitely holy.

And therefore that consequences in infinitely, it's against an infinitely holy God.

So we have to understand that we've broken God's law, we're guilty of that.

And I think it also has to include the fact that we cannot save ourselves, we can't work our way to heaven.

This is what sets Christianity apart from every man made religion.

Every man made religion teaches that you can work your way to heaven.

And Christianity is one that says, says you cannot.

It's what God did when Jesus came and died on that cross.

So I think we have to recognize we're sinners, we can't save ourselves, we can't work our way to do that.

And that therefore only Jesus Christ, being truly God and truly man, could be a consequence, could pay the consequence for us being truly God, he is eternal and he could pay a fine that would last forever.

And he could do it for more than one person because his nature is eternal.

And being truly man, having never violated God's law, he could be a perfect substitute.

So I think we have to recognize that we break God's law, we're guilty, we can't save ourselves.

We need Jesus Christ and him alone to save us.

And that work of salvation occurred at the cross.

If you were to press me for the.

If there's one element of the gospel, one word of the gospel, it'd be the theological word of imputation.

The best verse for that is 2nd Corinthians 5:21, speaking of Jesus, it says, he who knew no sin became sin, that we may become the righteousness of God.

So what you see in that verse is the imputation of our sin upon Christ at the cross where he made the payment, and then his imputation of his righteousness upon us that we're set free.

That would be the gospel message.

And if you're listening and it's the first time you've heard something like that, what do we do?

We hear the biblical gospel, what do we do?

The biblical word is repent.

We change in our thinking.

We stop trusting ourself as a good person or trusting our good works.

And we turn and trust what Jesus did and trust in him alone for our eternal life.

We turn from our pride to Christ.

That's what repentance is.

It's a change in our thinking.

And when someone does that, they truly understand how wicked they are before an infinitely holy God.

They will want to serve him.

They will want to love him with every fiber of their being.

And so.

So the natural response of someone who does repent is then works.

So works don't save us.

But that is the natural outpouring.

No different than if somebody did something, paid a fine for you, yode someone $100 million and someone else paid it, you would love that person for doing it because you didn't deserve it and they did it out of love for you.

You would want, want to love them back.

And so you can recognize in your own life whether you actually were genuinely saved or regenerated, had a new heart given to you by your actions.

So I would say that is the gospel message.

That is what I think is the minimum of the gospel.

And we'll sign off.

I'll start with Aaron.

You can either agree, disagree, or just share what you want for promotion.

Maybe you want to promote this new book about quitting.

I, I mean quit.

I think Andrew, you shared the gospel.

Well, praise the Lord that we who don't deserve his love.

He's made a way for us to able to experience that love and have a relationship with him and then to take that love and pour it on to those in our lives who don't know him and who do know him.

So amen to that.

Yes.

The book I referenced earlier is just a throwaway that Andrew grasped onto is, is my, my first book.

I'm very excited.

It's been a long time in the making.

It's called Quit how to Stop Family Strife for Good.

Now I should say I'm really excited about it.

Your first book.

It means you shouldn't quit writing.

So you have a second book, right?

Exactly.

I got.

Yeah, definitely don't quit writing.

Quit, quit Family strife.

Exactly.

I would just say that every family has strife.

If you think your family doesn't have strife.

I love you, but you're wrong.

It's there.

All right?

You can trust me on this.

But God's word has the answers for how to come to the place where your family has less and less and less and less strife in it, how to quit that strife.

When we step through the Book of Proverbs, we step through a number of New Testament books, we give hope.

We present the creators of strife, the consequences, the causes, and eventually the cure for strife.

And it really is.

You'll have to either listen to an interview where I talk about the book or get the book yourself.

Because I'll tell you this, the book is only 100 pages, but it has probably hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of pages worth of content in those hundred pages.

Now, it's not because it's a really small font, but you'll have to check the book out because it is loaded with more, more content that could actually fit into a book that size.

Because I wanted to set your family up really to have success in this way and to have the ability to really lower the strife and then quit the strife in your home.

And I will say, I would say.

That you can go to Evermight.

I was going to say evermindministries.com you can learn everything about the various ministries that are part of that, including truth, Love, family.

You can see the book there.

And I think too, that you can purchase the book at striving for eternity.org thanks.

And I, and I will say that we, you and I will have a podcast coming out soon on the Rap Report where we go into that.

So, Melissa, you're next up.

Anything you want to close out with?

No.

That was a beautiful presentation, Andrew.

Thank you.

I just, I love hearing the gospel all the time.

I have determined that Romans chapter 8, verses 3 to 4 is just another you quoted.

What was it?

Ephesians.

That's the verse I go to and I just depend on it.

And my podcast, of course, is thoroughly equipped.

And it's for women who, who first understand their sin nature and have cried out like Paul did in Romans 7, they are wretched and are in need of Christ and then are reliant on the Holy Spirit and in that wanting to mature.

And part of that is discernment and knowing the true gospel versus many, many fake gospels that are out there and the solid foundation of Sola Scriptura.

So if you're a woman who has begun to love the scriptures or who wants to have that passion for the scriptures, I use off's teaching to help you get to the passion and understand that Sola Scriptura that scripture is all you need for life and godliness.

Oh yeah, you check that out.

And yes, you talk about the false gospel.

You bring out and address the false gospel of the ifgat gathering in your recent deep dive of the if gathering on Thoroughly equipped.

So that's on you could folks, you could check out Eve Franklin.

You're the.

You're next up.

Yeah, well, I do want to since people are plugging books.

Aaron, I do have a book that has been on YouTube or on Amazon for a very, very long time and it's called are you just watching?

Just like my podcast.

And it's just a really short, easy to use workbook on how to app your Christian worldview to your entertainment.

If you choose to go beyond sitting on the couch and just letting the world feed you through your entertainment and go to the next step into trying to be a little bit more careful in how you approach entertainment.

So that's.

That book is available on Amazon.

It's just called are you just watching?

And I do want to plug my podcast.

It is different than a lot of the other podcasts on the Christian podcast community in that we are speaking less about the Bible and more about entertainment, but we do our play apply the Bible to what we're watching.

And, and we've actually had the opportunity to, to turn that conversation into a gospel presentation a few times.

And I do believe I do have unbelievers that occasionally listen to my podcast.

So it is useful for me to remember to be a little bit more intentional about sharing the gospel at the end and but yeah, do us out.

We do also do have Patreon for support of our podcast.

And I will challenge you if, if you think that I, I agree that Andrew's Rapaport's presentation, the gospel was amazing and if you want to hear, really challenge him on that, I challenge you to get in line to join his his podcast because he gives you the opportunity to stump him on how quickly he can turn any topic into a gospel presentation.

And that is super fun.

Yes, thank you for that.

That's.

You're referring to the Apologex Live, which we do a live stream on Thursday nights and 8:00 to 10:00 Eastern Time.

So that's New York City time.

And if you ever want to join, just go to apologexlive.com I always tell people on that podcast I can answer any question you have about God and the Bible.

And before you think I'm so arrogant, I just want you to know that I don't know is a perfectly good answer.

I never said my answer would satisfy you.

I just said I could answer.

But it is something that, you know, my podcasts are one is about apologetics, one's about biblical interpretations applications.

That's the Rap Report podcast.

But since we're plugging books like, well, I've been plugging Aaron's all day and Eve plugged hers.

I do have two books out.

One is called what Do They Believe?

Which is a systematic theology of the Western religions, major Western religions, and what Do We Believe?

Which is a Christian systematic theology.

Not super thick, really easy to read.

So I encourage you to check those out.

You could go to striving for eternity.org go to the store and those are available along with I believe Aaron's book should be out there.

And if not, well, we'll just have to shoot the webmaster.

But, but it, it should be there.

If not, shoot the webmaster.

So we, we appreciate you guys listening.

Let us know, contact us if you have questions about what we've said.

You will you agree?

Disagree.

You know, one way for all of our podcasts if you want to contact us is if you go to ChristianPodcastCommunity.org every one of the shows at the bottom has a contact page and you can contact the speakers directly through there.

If you want to contact me, just go to info Striving for eternity.com info@restrivingfore eternity.com that's a way to get a hold of me.

Let me know whether you like this, didn't like this.

Let us know if you have some topics you would like us to discuss, maybe even disagree with and we would be happy, happy to do that.

And we just want to encourage you as we, as we sign out, just remember that we are we do this because we want to show how we could disagree with one another in Christian love, charity and harmony.

It's something that you've seen in the online circles.

This is a ministry of striving for each other.

So as we do this once a month, we want you to think about that.

Think about how you can disagree with other Christians with love and charity, even discussing theology.

Hope you learned a lot.

Hope you come back.

Hope you share this with others and we'll see you next time.