You are listening to the we need to Talk Cult Oscar podcast.

And this is our conversation with Gianna Taboni, director of the documentary Just Kids, premiering at this year's Tribeca.

There is nobody stronger in the world than a parent that is trying to protect their child.

These parents will stop at nothing to save their kids so the government can continue to wield these threats.

They can continue to pass these laws.

I promise you, these parents will not stop fighting for their kids.

First and foremost.

Jenna, thank you so, so much for your time.

Thank you for having me, Aaron.

Great to be here.

I just don't know how we could not start a conversation by talking about family when we are covering Just Kids.

And the film opens and ends with Toboni sisters written on our screens or a screen as big as possible.

And you're making this deeply personal documentary about these three families with your sister Jacqueline.

There is, of course, something, dare I say, poetic about siblings documenting parents fighting for their children's rights.

So I guess, how did that family dynamic inform your approach to these three stories or even filmmaking as a whole?

I love that you brought that up to start, Erin, because I am a first and foremost family person.

My whole life is my family.

I partner with my sister on all of our productions.

And we had the benefit of growing up not only in a family that loved and supported us for who we are, but in a country that loved and supported us for who we are and allowed us to grow up and be who we are and pursue what we wanted to pursue and have the freedom to.

To live as we are.

And that is no longer the case in our country.

We are moving backward.

And, you know, as I started to see these families struggling to, I mean, literally survive because of how the government was stripping them of their rights, I called my sister, you know, understanding that she would understand this more than anyone, and said, we gotta do something about this because, you know, half the country, and now it feels that more than half the country is not understanding what is playing out in front of us.

And so, you know, feeling so deeply connected to our family.

Our company is called Mother Media, after our mother.

You know, we said, we need to do this.

We need to show who these families are.

We need to humanize them, and we need to help people understand what they're going through.

And on the storytelling side of things, I guess we have to say that we are living in a time when deliberately misinterpreting, basically anything is free to do so.

And deliberate misinformation is wherever we turn our heads.

And the same goes for trans issues as well.

And documentary filmmaking seems and is such a powerful tool for cutting through this noise with actual facts, capturing and showing those lived experiences.

And yet, to me, it feels as we tend to expect and demand more from.

And by that, I mean the audience or us as a society.

We expect and demand more from journalists, filmmakers, in a climate that still shouldn't require them to become political actors.

And I know this is a big question to ask, but where do you see the responsibility of filmmakers and society at large in that fight?

And, yeah, more specifically, where do you even see this heading at all?

You know, I am not a political person.

I'm not an activist.

I am a journalist through and through.

And I think, you know, at a moment like this where we are seeing such extreme government overreach, and I think there's a parallel with President Reagan and the war on drugs.

What we saw back then was this kind of incredible response in.

In art, in music, in film, and then, of course, in politics and in activism.

And I see my lane as journalism, you know, which is to say it is my job and my responsibility, and I take it very seriously to demonstrate what is true, what is truly happening in this country, what is true about these families, what is true about the science of this healthcare.

That is my responsibility.

And yes, I think that there is an enormous responsibility on other people in this country, whether that is musicians or politicians or activists, to not live in fear.

I think this is a moment where people need to stand up and whatever their trade is, this is a moment to use it in order to do what's right in the face of this extremism.

The three young people whose lives we follow have very different relationships with social media and public visibility, which has been such a vital, I think, I have to say, vital part of our lives for some time now, and some are even already advocates with and on these platforms, while others are more private.

So what did these different levels of exposure or comfortability with exposure mean for filming their daily lives?

I've been filming with, you know, families and trans kids specifically, for almost a decade.

And everyone makes their own decision on how public they want to be.

So in this film, you know, one of our characters, Alisai, is big on TikTok, and it feeds her soul.

And she's able to help the dolls, you know, other trans women in her life on TikTok.

She inspires them, she encourages them, she motivates them, and that's her calling.

And she's incredible at it.

And she is very public in that Way, you know, there are other teens in the film who are not on social media and, and have been deliberate with that decision.

You know, part of it is just general disinterest.

Their friends aren't on it.

They'd rather be on Roblox or, you know, playing video games.

But, you know, I think that there are other folks who just, you know, genuinely want to be more private.

And this is, you know, the first conversation we had with all of these families.

What was most important to me at the beginning of this, this project and remains my number one priority is the health and safety of these families.

And so before even coming close to picking up cameras, we had conversations at length about what it means to agree to something like this, what informed consent is, what production would look like, what questions we would ask, the things we would want to film, what happens when the film comes out, how could their lives change?

We made the decision to leave out their last names, and that was.

It's very unusual to do that in journalism.

We decided to do that just as an extra layer of protection.

You know, it's not bulletproof.

They understand what they've signed up for.

But I just thought, you know, that's an easy thing for us to do that, you know, might just make it a little bit harder for a troll or somebody else to find them.

And so, yes, everybody makes their own decision about.

About what level of exposure they're comfortable with.

And, and certainly they all understand that, you know, in participating in a film like this, you know, you expose yourself a certain amount.

I have to say, you know, there's.

And this is the last thing I'll say on this point is just, you know, social media is sometimes described as, you know, being sort of a force of evil in our world and causing, you know, severe mental illness for kids.

And I think that there, you know, is a lot of that.

That's very true and very concerning.

But I also think that social media can be an incredible tool for kids.

And specifically with Alazai, when she, you know, lost her mom and was living in solitude and dealing with some severe depression, social media is like part of what brought her back.

That is what fuels her.

It gives her purpose, it gives her this value that she otherwise wouldn't have.

It also gives her a community that supports her and loves her.

And there's something that's really beautiful about that, particularly when we live in a country where some cities, you know, you'd be hard pressed to find one person that will affirm you and support you.

And Alazaiya doesn't need to move to a blue city, she can pick up her phone and find a world of love and support through TikTok.

Yeah.

And now that we're talking about exposure, one thing that really struck me was seeing how it's not only the parents who are trying to shield their children from their struggles, but vice versa.

How did you.

Or how could you handle capturing those moments of hidden pain from both perspectives while trying to, to a point, respect those protective instincts?

That's a great question.

I'm a parent myself, and actually, one of the things that broke my heart the most while filming with these families is seeing how the kids carried this burden of not wanting to hurt their parents and not wanting to be a burden on their parents.

Not wanting to, you know, force the family to do something that the family couldn't afford to do or that would disrupt their lives.

And seeing such a young person carry that burden was heartbreaking and so wrong, you know?

You know, kids are losing their innocence because of these political attacks.

They're having to grow up, you know, a lot faster.

And, you know, in some cases, I think the parents didn't even necessarily see that.

You know, it's.

It's.

I think parents worry about their kids mental health first, right?

And whether they're receiving enough love.

But there's also some other complicated emotions where sometimes kids will withhold information from their parents because they don't want to hurt their parents.

You know, and their parents may feel like, oh, I'm very close with my child, they're telling me everything.

But sometimes kids withhold information or say that they're doing okay when they're not doing okay because they.

Not for their own benefit, but because they don't want to hurt their parents.

And that complex set of emotions which we kind of unraveled in making this film is both heartbreaking and in some ways, heartwarming.

At the end of the day, there's just so much love between these parents and these kids and so much resilience that really, more than anything, I came out of this project feeling inspired, you know, by.

By their strength and their perseverance.

There is also some use of archival footage, some pretty striking archival footage in the film, which reveals how disturbingly little has changed over to decades.

When it comes to this or any kind of targeted hatred, the only thing that changes from time to time is which group of people are targeted by it.

And even though I'm sure this wasn't news to you, and that was the reason why I used it, but what was it like?

Assembling that historical context with the current footage and seeing these patterns repeat themselves next to each other.

This isn't something I knew going into making this film.

This came out in my research and in reading books and talking to civil rights experts and trans pioneers.

And it was in that research.

Yes.

That I found that this political playbook is not new.

This idea of save the children, protect the children, and is a political strategy that has been used against different marginalized groups since the beginning of our country.

And it's incredibly effective because people are very emotional about children.

And when you instill fear in the public around a group of people and what they might be doing to children, you know, that's really effective.

And it's kind of shocking that it's as effective as it is today as it was in, for instance, the 1970s when that was being used against gay men in an effort to prevent them legally from being teachers.

Right.

Oh, if we have gay men around teachers, or.

Sorry, if we have gay men, you know, as teachers around children, they might make those children gay.

Right.

And so this sort of, like, fundamental misunderstanding of what it means to be queer, number one.

And number two, this just very strategic, you know, political approach to this issue has been seen for decades.

What I didn't expect was that the language would literally mirror the language that was used by politicians 50 years ago.

It is literally the same language.

And so that tells me that this is all very intentional, you know, and the reason that it's being used today is because it worked really well before and it continues to work very well to the political benefit of a few, you know, regardless of how it negatively impacts children and parents.

On the technical side of things, there is an incredible level of sensitivity in how you handle intimate emotional moments with the camera.

Those close ups, how they can feel necessary, but at the same time never exploitative.

So how do you make those decisions about when to move in closer versus when to give people space?

What are your thoughts like with your cinematographer or operator?

This was a very intentional part of the filmmaking, and I'm really glad that you asked about it.

And the first point is that we develop very close relationships with the subjects before we start filming.

That's number one.

I find it, you know, to be my personal responsibility for them to feel comfortable with me a few feet from them, asking them, you know, very intimate questions about their personal life, in some cases about things that they've never talked about out loud.

I need to have that relationship with them, but I also need to have a DP and camera operators Who I trust, who I have worked with in the past, who I know understand how to communicate and be disarming around children, and particularly children who in some cases have been traumatized, that is a very specific person, and not everybody can do that.

And so we were very intentional with the people that we brought on board, including people who have trans lived experience.

And that was one of the most rewarding parts of making this film, is seeing how these young trans kids looked at, you know, members of the crew who were also trans and, you know, ask them questions off camera and ask them about their lives.

And, you know, in one case, one of the trans teens was talking to one of somebody on our crew and said, wow, it just sort of, like, never occurred to me that I could, like, be a trans adult.

Like, I could grow up and be healthy and have a happy, healthy life as a trans adult.

And seeing our crew member living that life and giving them hope and giving them advice, of course, none of that's in the film.

But that, I mean, that just to me, hit home, you know, how important it was that we had this inclusive team.

But in terms of folks who were behind the camera and deciding yes, when to punch in, when to stand back, when to let things unfold in front of them versus follow them with the camera, we talked about a lot of these things beforehand, but I'm not holding the camera.

I really had to trust the folks that we brought on board to know those moments.

And maybe you'll get to this, but our editor is brilliant.

Their name is Sasha Perry, and they were able to give us insights that I would not have had as a CIS person.

And some of it's just really subtle.

Sometimes it's music or part of an answer that you're including.

But to see the film through their lens was incredibly valuable.

So I'm really proud of the team that we brought together, and I hope that it shows in the film.

Oh, it absolutely does.

It absolutely does.

And coming back to where we started, you and your sister making this film together about the power of family bonds after spending this extensive time witnessing these families fight for their children and also the children fighting for their parents against these unfortunately, almost impossible odds, what did it teach you about the length people will go to protect the ones they love, the different shapes and forms of what love comes in.

As a filmmaker, as a human being, a sister, mother.

I see this story as sort of a David and Goliath story.

You know, it's families who have no power, who are going up against an incredibly powerful government and you know, I think what I learned in making this film is that while the government may seem like, you know, the powerful ones in the ivory tower, there is nobody stronger in the world than a parent that is trying to protect their child.

These parents will stop at nothing to save their kids.

So the government can continue to wield these threats.

They can continue to pass these laws.

I promise you, these parents will not stop fighting for their kids.

And I think that's what I learned in making this film.

And when I think about my own family, if my parents were in this position, you know, they would be the same way.

They would never stop.

I feel that way as a parent.

There is something that is, I mean, just bulletproof about the layers of protection that you will put around your child before you allow someone to harm them.

And, you know, that's a story as old as time, and it's certainly.

It's playing out in our country right now.

And.

And I think it.

I think it definitely shows.

I think it definitely shows in this film.

It's beautiful.

And, yeah.

Gianna, once again, thank you so much for time and for the film itself.

Thank you so much.

Aaron, thank you so much.