PJ Ellis (00:00)

So welcome to episode 30. Can you believe that? we are speaking on a 30 unbelievable. Yeah, it's crackers to be fair, but very grateful for everyone that supported us so far. And today we're super grateful for this lovely ladies time. And we're to be talking about something that I suppose affects millions of people every single day. But I would say I might be wrong.

Natalie Costa (00:00)

you

Andy (00:04)

Amazing.

Natalie Costa (00:06)

Nice.

PJ Ellis (00:24)

rarely gets spoken about properly. What happens when you're trying to be brilliant at work whilst also trying to be a present, patient, emotionally available parent? She's leading the conversation on emotional fitness in families and organisations. Welcome to the pod, Natalie Costa.

Natalie Costa (00:45)

Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm so excited for the conversation.

Andy (00:45)

Welcome.

PJ Ellis (00:47)

Welcome.

then, I'm just gonna sit back and listen. So Natalie, tell me or tell us rather, in a nutshell, who is, what is Natalie Costa?

Natalie Costa (00:57)

In a nutshell, right.

So I guess Natalie Costa right now is really focused on supporting parents. The big mission with the work that I do, or should I say my purpose, is to help raise a generation of connected humans. ⁓ But I really believe that we need to support the people raising them, and that is it's the parent, but it's also the teachers.

the leaders, we all have a part to play. So whether you have kids or not, we are all responsible for the next generation. And I think it's now more important than ever before because, you know, we live in a society where we are more connected, so to say, but we're more emotionally disconnected than ever before. And I think the work that I do is about helping parents

reconnect to themselves, but also then how do we connect with our children? How do we connect our planet? How do we connect to others? I think in this great world of AI and technology and all of that great stuff that's happening, we're losing the essence of the art of connection. And as humans, we're wired for connection. We want connection. And I think, you know, there's a lot to be said for that. So that's where we are today. I mean, we might be in a different place in 10 years time, but that's the mission for today, for the purpose for now.

Andy (02:16)

It's a great mission. So I think it interesting to go back to your formative years, maybe when you started teaching, kind of primary school, just to understand what was going on as you were going through your career. What were you starting to notice that's maybe helped shaped where you are today?

Natalie Costa (02:34)

Yeah, a few things. So I think I never set out to be a teacher. I actually didn't know what I wanted to do when I left school. I've been growing up in South Africa. My parents were very much no good universities. So I did a bunch of EQ, IQ, aptitude tests and nursing came up, but I'm not very good with body fluids. So teaching was another one. And I thought, and I quite enjoyed art. So initially I was like, right, I like teaching. I can teach five and six year olds. We can do art.

Caveat to that, I hate mess, so art sessions was actually not something I enjoyed. But I trained in South Africa, I've also did my degree and then my honours degree in psychology. And the plan was to come over and teach for a couple of years and then go back and do my masters in Ed Sci. But I ended up staying. And I always knew, and I even said to my mum, I was like, I love teaching, but I want to teach what I'm passionate about.

I had no desire to teach phonics or the 10 times table. I mean, it absolutely bored me to death. And I also thought I was like, but we're missing something because we're spending so much time helping our children learn how to think, how to problem solve. But later on, as I then discovered on my part, it's like, why are we not teaching children about their thoughts? That you don't have to believe every thought you think or react to everything you feel. And I think one of the things, the driving force behind this is,

I struggled a lot with anxiety. I was always a bit of a warrior as a little girl. think I always had my worries from about the age of seven. And then, you know, that sort of developed into anxiety and depression. And I was put on antidepressants for, you know, from like 16 and onwards. And it was only until like, my late thirt-, you know, my late twenties, beginning thirties that I-, when I'd gotten into coaching, so to say, I'm sure we come onto that, that it really made me think, but why are we not

teaching children these skills. know, school's obsessed with problem solving thinking, but you don't have to believe all the stories you tell yourself. And I was, like I said, late twenties starting to realize, ⁓ that story I'm telling myself that I'm not good enough, that I don't belong, that, you know, I'm not cool enough, which was a story I had from wherever it came from. That's not necessarily true. And why are we not making this accessible to children today? So that set me out on the journey of

putting together, which my business was called Power Thoughts at the time, helping children tap into the power of their own thought. ⁓ And it really was about, like I said, helping children understand the impact of stress on the brain. You know, when I get stressed when I'm doing my SATs or my 11 plus exams, ⁓ understanding that there's nothing wrong with you. This is actually just what your brain is doing to protect you. And those thoughts that you think that I'm not good enough, that I can't do it, that I'm dumb.

Andy (05:11)

you

Natalie Costa (05:23)

That's just a story. And actually we can start to change that story. And also looking at, you know, when I make mistakes, that doesn't mean I'm bad or I'm wrong. That actually means high five because my brain's actually making more neural connections. And I think, you know, that's the other challenge with school as well is that we, you know, it's this thing about learning, but the way that we learn is through mistakes, is through those face down moments, or upon reflection, where you're like, you know what, I should have done...

X, Y, and Z, but now I'm going to do that the next time. And yet from a young age, we're conditioned to believe that, my worth is down to my success and not down to my failures. And I think, you know, that's a big, big conversation to be had.

Andy (06:07)

Yeah,

so was there a particular moment Natalie when you were busy working away with kids and you said, do you know what, enough of all the thinking about this, I'm going to start doing something about it. Could you take us back there?

Natalie Costa (06:16)

Yeah.

Yeah, really good. I mean, to kind of get me there, ⁓ the school I was with at that point, the headteacher was lovely and the deputy head, they knew I wanted to leave teaching. And I had just finished a coaching qualification, because backstory, I was also very much into fitness. And they thought, we'll send you on this coaching thing, thinking it's PE coaching, where it was a taster to life coaching. And then that got me on that trajectory.

and I, at that point, I was like the in-house supply teacher for this school. So I did small group support, worked with children that needed extra support, and then I was covering different classes and I was sitting in, a year six class having just come back off a stress coaching CPD day. ⁓ and the years one boy in particular was saying to me, Ms. Costa, I'm nervous about my school interview next week. cause I don't think I've got anything important to say and

This young blad was very bright, very articulate, but a very quiet young boy. And I thought, that's so interesting. This belief can stay with him, impact the girls he speaks to, impacts the jobs he goes to because he thinks he's got nothing important to say, all because of something a couple of people had said to him before. And it was there that I then dropped whatever I was teaching them. And I'm like, let me tell you what I learned yesterday. And I taught my superpower as a teacher is to break things down and make it easy and digestible.

And that got me onto the idea that that Monday afternoon teaching science, whatever it was meant to be, it was like, this is what I need to be doing. I need to look at, let me know how else can I bring what I'm applying in my own life to kids? because up until that point, I was thinking, okay, do I go down the mindfulness route? Because mindfulness was like the big thing, say, you know, 2014 in the schools. But I was like,

It needs to be something more than just that. Like there's more that our children are struggling with. But that got me onto this idea of what if I created a program that went into schools, primary schools, because there was more for secondary school, but what was there for primary school kids that really just taught kids all of these tools, like I said, that I wish I had. and up until that point, I was kicking and screaming because I wanted to leave the school system. And I mean, and I had

friend someone saying, bring your coaching into schools. And I was like, no, I'm fed up with schools. I'm fed up with children. I want to leave. But I still remember I got goosebumps that day. And it just, and the children were so receptive. That was the thing. And I was like, okay, no, there is something here.

Andy (08:56)

Can you take us into one of those sessions then just to understand the sorts of tools that you might have given a nine ⁓ and 10 year old? I've got an 18 and 15 year old and I can't get them to listen to any tools. When there'd be nine and 10. So how did you engage impact? What sort of things did you share?

Natalie Costa (09:03)

No.

PJ Ellis (09:09)

Thank

Natalie Costa (09:16)

Yeah, I mean, so a few things, think in that set, know, a few of the sessions that we looked at, we'd actually look at what happens in my brain when I feel big feelings and looking at different scenarios. So I feel big feelings and I get angry or I shout out or I say, you know, I hate you, you're the worst, whatever, or I'm the worst, whatever. But actually looking at where do I feel those feelings in my body? Because we're so often caught up in our head, we're not actually paying attention to what my body is feeling.

So let's actually look at, know, is it that it feels hot? it, and I mean, it's amazing. Every child I work with, still to this day, if we're looking at those big feelings or the uncomfortable feelings, because they're not bad, there's no good or bad feelings, it's just a feeling, but the uncomfortable feelings, they'll always say that some version of heaviness. And that's true, think about my body, right? But we first look at where do I feel those emotions in my body?

What are the thoughts that I'm telling myself? I'm dumb, I can't do this, I'm the worst at this, everybody else is better than me, whatever those thoughts might be. ⁓ And then also, how do I specifically behave? Do I throw, do I shout, do I hit, do scream? And again, obviously these are more for primary school kids with older children, the language would be different. But then also helping them understand this is just what your body does to protect you. Because as you've learned about caveman days, people then didn't go into the shops to get food.

They were out hunting for food. Now, right now, you're stressed about the sats paper and your body is doing the same thing, thinking it's that wild animal trying to attack you. But if we look at it, we're not necessarily gonna die doing our sats paper, you know? It's gonna be difficult or whatever that might be. And so helping them then understand, and this is the work, ⁓ I love using the work from Dr. Daniel Siegel when he talks about flipping the lid, using the brain model, you know, saying, you know, this is our brain.

And this top part is the thinking brain as I've caught, you when I work with kids and this is the boss of you. ⁓ It helps you to pay attention. It helps you in football to know when you hit the ball, gymnastics, which way to go. And on the inside, we've got our feeling brain where all of those big emotions sit. Now, normally they work together, but in that moment when your brother's taken the iPad from you and you get really mad and you feel those feelings and you want to get really mad and then you shout or you punch him, in that moment I flip my lid. And when I flip my lid that...

thinking brain's not the boss and that feeling brain has all of the power. Now there's nothing wrong with a feeling brain being in power because anger is a good feeling. It's telling us the boundary's been crossed. ⁓ know, anxiety's not bad, it wanting it to protect us, but I don't need to give it all my power. What can I start to do to hold onto my power? So then we look at tools, know, breath work is obviously really important, but also movement because sometimes I don't want to breathe on my own, but can I do move it to lose it?

you know, where I move my body in a safe way to let go of the feeling. ⁓ So those are some of the things, you know, that we specifically start to look at. And it's then beginning and it's also understanding, look, I want to build the muscle of this, you know, holding onto my power. And just yesterday I was working with a 12 year old over in Australia, who's very talented little sports boy, but he's got big emotions when it's not related to sports.

But we were looking at, know, Messi is one of his people that he looks up to. So we were looking at, but you know, when Messi's on the football pitch, fair enough, he might flip his lid, but if he consistently does that, he's going to be given the red card. So Messi's had to develop the skill of learning to hold onto his power. But what he does on the pitch, he's also got to remember to build that skill off the pitch, you know? And it's about beginning to help them also see the correlation, or try and do that as much as possible between things that children enjoy.

people they aspire to, who they look up to. Even if he's YouTuber, as one of my other clients loves a gentleman called Mark Rober. apparently a brilliant guy building Legos and previously worked for Nestle. But even looking at that, if we look at confidence, if we look at mindset, if we look at the stories he's having to tell himself, millions of people are viewing him and he could think, well, what if I fail? What if I get this wrong? Versus, okay, what can I learn about this?

Andy (13:07)

I know.

PJ Ellis (13:07)

Yeah.

Natalie Costa (13:22)

So beginning to use those as strategies, be able to connect with them and meet them where they're at. And then as well, when it comes to the parents, I'm sure we'll get onto, because my work later evolved into supporting parents. How are we holding onto our power? Because as I say to adults, who taught you to regulate your emotions and what messages did we receive about anger, anxiety, disappointment?

Andy (13:23)

Thank

PJ Ellis (13:38)

Thank

I mean, this is naturally going into that point where we do talk about parents, I think, you know, we said at the start and I genuinely bow to the work that you're doing because I so wish that I had that support when I was a kid, you know, with

There's a big perspective play in my life at the moment. And I think I've lost recently the one person that got me growing up more than most. that emotional dysregulation, all that stuff that you're helping kids with now. Bravo, bravo. Let's move into that piece then around raising that generation of connected humans that you said that that's your main play. How does that come into play then with parents now? Tell us a little bit more about that, please.

Natalie Costa (14:17)

Thank you.

Yeah, so that didn't initially kind of come my way. I was petrified of working with, I mean, my thing was, you know, working with five and six year olds. So I was like, my goodness, grownups, how do we work with adults? I feel like a child myself. But I know it's crazy, that generally is what it felt like. But I initially, so initially I'd set up working in schools, but then schools would naturally ask me to stay behind and do sessions for parents.

PJ Ellis (14:42)

We all do, mate, we all do, we all do.

Natalie Costa (14:56)

⁓ And around COVID, well, the year COVID happened, which was just before it happened, a friend of mine was working at a law firm and she's like, look, why don't I get you to come and do a talk with our parents? I petrified me, of course, there. was like, lawyers and I'm a teacher, you know, what do I know? Again, so many stories there. But I loved it. I loved it. And for me, was actually, it made me realize so much more about, on, you're missing a whole market here in terms of...

Typically, you know, and at that point I was doing school talks and ⁓ parents would come to me privately with their children. But then after a session with a child or a program, you know, I do flipping the lid and teaching kids, but then like, but now mommy and daddy need to help facilitate this in the weeks that go beyond. And so much of this is, you know, helping parents understand, how are you regulating your emotions? Because it's all fair and well bringing, you know,

Johnny to me and Johnny's got big feelings, but what's mommy and daddy doing? And this isn't because of any finger pointing or shame or none of that. Like I said, we've never been modeled how to regulate our emotions, how to sit with and work through difficult emotions. We're in a society that's obsessed with success and happiness and I want achievement, but we don't have the skillset to deal with the uncomfortable emotions and how to tolerate.

that uncomfortability without having to fix it. And so much of emotional agility is it's not about not having those difficult emotions and it's I'm going to experience these, but fundamentally I am more than capable of working my way through this. And also then educating parents in terms of this is an emotion as I do with kids, it comes and it goes. I mean, I think, you know, physiologically, you know, there was a study that was done, and I forget her name, but she's got a brilliant TED talk called My Stroke of Insight.

We only physiologically feel an emotion for 90 seconds in terms of the chemical concoction that goes on. But the reason why I continue to feel it is because of the stories I'm telling myself about it. It's not fair. It shouldn't be this way, but I shouldn't be late. I'm going to miss the train, you know? And those are the thoughts that then consistently generate these feelings. And just because we feel the feeling doesn't mean I need to be the feeling. but again, as adults, we've never been given this playbook either.

because it's much easier to tap, to scroll, to buy, to all of these things than to feel.

Andy (17:25)

Just going back on kind of linking childhood and adulthood, I may, and I'll be keen to get back into parents, Natalie. There must be a lot of people, and I may well be one of them, whose thoughts, emotions, beliefs from childhood probably should have changed a bit more. It would have been helpful to have not carried some of those thoughts through to adult life. Is that typical? Is it easy to kind of help someone amend change on that kind of journey?

Natalie Costa (17:55)

Yeah, I think, you know, our brain is far more malleable when we're younger, especially zero to 12. You know, the brain is in a theta brain wave state than an alpha brain wave state, which means it takes in information more readily. But neuroplasticity gives us the gift to change. Doesn't mean it's easy. And one of the things that I say to parents when they come to me is, A, this is not about you being a perfect parent. You are still going to be the parent that flips your lid. But actually, there is always an opportunity for repair.

And part of this process as well is we have to understand that when I am a parent, it's not my child's job to be easy for me. And it's not my job to make them happy all the time. My job is to be their substitute prefrontal cortex, the part of the brain that houses all of those executive functioning skills, motivation, inhibition, ⁓ know, focus, paying attention, the ability to tolerate frustration. I have a fully developed prefrontal cortex as an adult.

child's prefrontal cortex is only developed by our mid-20s, so they do not have that hardware in their brain. So my job as the parent here is I need to step up and be the adult. And I can't expect my child to be the adult. And that's really uncomfortable because I don't want to be the adult. In that moment, I'm do as I say, and how dare you talk to me like this? And this is not what we said. But actually it's like, I've got to have that lens or begin to build the muscle. It comes back to building the muscle.

PJ Ellis (19:13)

Thank

Natalie Costa (19:24)

build that muscle of like, you know what, right now I know that it feels like they're really pressing my buttons and they're giving me such a hard time, but actually they are having a hard time. They're flooded with adrenaline, they've flooded with cortisol, they've flooded with all these emotions and they are feeling terrified because they don't know what's actually going on in their body. And I have to be the steady adult. It doesn't mean I'm calm and I'm not gonna like it, but there's only space for one adult in the relationship and it's not your child.

And that's tough. It's a tough, and I know most parents are like, don't tell me this, but deep down we know, right? The problem is there are a lot of us as adults that, I, you know, we're all, and this is not about being perfect, but there are a lot of us as adults that walk around and we're still an eight-year-old, a 10-year-old, a stroppy 15-year-old inside. And I think it's,

PJ Ellis (19:53)

Wow.

Natalie Costa (20:15)

Like I said, the work that I do with parents is not expecting you to be calm. There is nothing calm about a five-year-old screaming in your face and you've got to get the train, right? And even if we do flip our lid, but it's in what am I doing after that? I'm saying, Hey, do you know what? This morning was tough. And do you know what? I know that I raised my voice and I got so caught up in what I needed to do. I didn't even think of what was going on for you. Help me understand. Actually, what I should have done is I needed to take a breath. Can you do that with me now?

And then still here's the thing, I won't let you hit me. Saying those things, that's not what we do. That's the teachable moment. And the heat of the moment isn't always gonna be the teachable moment, but the beauty is, as I say to parents, is you can actually not, you can't mess this up if we're repairing and we're taking ownership. And that's a teachable moment, because we want our kids to acknowledge when they've done things wrong and when they, let's own it.

Right? It's all the things that we preach, but we don't always want to do these things. And recognizing, look, I am the first person, maybe trying to break these old patterns of behavior. I've got 30, 40 years of behaving and thinking in this way. But just like exercise, you don't run a marathon in a day. You know, you build, it's what I do in the moment, but it's what I'm doing outside of the moment that helps me build the muscle of regulation.

of being a bit more present, of being a little bit more steady.

Andy (21:46)

Just a quick favour, unfortunately I'm not the smartest tool in the box here, Natalie. I've heard neuroplasticity talked about on many podcasts and I kind of go, yeah, okay, I kind of get that. Could you just explain for our listeners, what is it and why it's ⁓ helpful for us?

Natalie Costa (21:50)

You are.

Yeah.

Yeah, no, really good, really good question. ⁓ Neuroplasticity is basically the brain's ability to adapt to change to grow. Now, of course, you know, and up until, I don't know how many years ago, but the idea was that the brain was rigid. Up until a certain point, our brain can learn and then it doesn't learn anymore. But we now know through science that that's not true. Our brain always has the ability to learn, to grow, to adapt.

Now, granted, it is more challenging in our adult years than our younger years. Children's brains are far more malleable, should we say, especially till about 12. It's also why children can pick up multiple languages a lot easier when they're younger, because their brain is literally downloading information ⁓ before it becomes more ingrained within who they are. Now, neuroplasticity, if we think about building, learning a new skill,

Let's say you want to learn Duolingo. You know, can't speak a word of Spanish, but if you're repeatedly doing it every single week, maybe in a year's time, you know, you're a bit more fluent in Spanish. That's neuroplasticity. That's me. I've built that neural pathway, basically those connections in my brain that's allowed me now to obviously understand Spanish.

So it's, know, if we think about any new skill, picking up cooking or baking, if you've never touched an appliance, you know, anything before, you're going to improve, you're going to make mistakes, you're going to improve. So we always have the ability to change. And I see, you know, neuroplasticity is almost like our muscles, the muscle of our mind being built. Similar to when I go to the gym, I can't pick up any weights, you know, it's a one kilogram, the two kilogram, and I slowly work my way up through failure, through pain, through things that are difficult.

Same thing happens when we can start to shift our responses or should I say our reactions. So what that might look like in behavior form is maybe in those, you know, triggering moments with my child, I'm always feeling like, how dare they talk to me like this? Who do they think they are? They don't appreciate anything I do. Now, obviously in that moment, you're maybe not having all of those thoughts in your head, but if we just reflect upon that, what are some of those stories you're telling yourself? Okay, interesting.

So that's my first thought. Can I now start to help myself build a new pattern of thought, the power of the second thought, you know, that initial reaction is, ⁓ how dare they do this? But then actually over time, I'm like, actually, right now, they're having a really hard time instead of giving me a hard time. Or actually what's underneath my child's behavior. So we slowly start to shift those, or, you know, instead of me initially reacting, I'm gonna take a deep breath and be like,

let me lean back and take a breath before I react. And I maybe then do react, but it's taken me a little bit longer before I react. That's how we start to build the neuroplasticity, should I say, those new patterns of behavior. But it is more, you know, it definitely is harder. And as I say to parents, you're, you're a parenting, you're the blind leading the blind, first of all, right? So let's just get that out of the way. But B, you're not the blind leading the blind blind, because you're also trying to

PJ Ellis (25:17)

Yeah.

Natalie Costa (25:22)

parent in a way that was maybe very different or it was never done for you.

PJ Ellis (25:26)

I've just written neuroplasticity rules. It's as simple as that. It's the muscle of our mind. I don't know how much plasticity I've got left, you say. That's the problem. Is it becoming even more difficult now to be a kid and to be a parent? Do you think?

Natalie Costa (25:35)

You got a lot, you got a lot, got a

you know what, I think every generation has its like challenges. And the only reality we know is the reality that we're in. ⁓ And it's easy to kind of look back and like romanticize what life was like, you know, but I do think the added pressure of information and accessibility that we have puts a whole different level of pressure on being a child and being a parent. ⁓ And I think as well,

I do think parenting is more challenging because there's a lack of a village. If we think back to so many, back in Hunter Gatherer days, a typical mother would have eight aloe parents supporting her, so other people supporting with their child caring capacities. But most people now, we parent in isolation. We don't necessarily have the village, so there's that to contend with.

more parents are, both parents are working if both parents are still together, you know, or co-parenting when they're single parents. And I think, so I think there are definitely added pressures. And I also think the, it's great to have so much information, it's also at a detriment because then it's, but I should be doing these and these are the things I should say and this isn't what I should say and I should cook five home cooked meals and my kids should be here and the kids should be there. And then there's also the other information that we see about

global issues that take place. And I think I read something recently ⁓ that the typical amount of information that we receive in a day is like three or four times the amount than what our great grandparents would have received in there. And think about it, Wars might be taking place, but it's not accessible 24 seven. You read about it in the paper or you see it a bit on TV or you listen to it on the radio. ⁓ And I do think

that accessibility and then also the information that children are fed and what they see when their brains are still developing, that adds a different level of pressure as well.

PJ Ellis (27:52)

I know the interactions that I'm having my children the 10 and 15 We try and eat together we whatever it might be

Do we turn the news off when we're talking? Do we remove phones from the conversation? Is there any sort of simple advice you'd give a parent to make us better connected with our kids?

Natalie Costa (28:06)

Yeah,

think, yeah, I think what is do it. think, you know, take the pressure off. I've got to do like big days out or big chunks of time. Small moments of connection, 10 minutes of one on one connection with your child, your child, what our children want most is our presence. Now, granted, when they're tweens and teens, they want to find their own, you know, identity. But I say whatever your child, one of the good ways to get connected with your child is ⁓ what are the keys to the kingdom? Now, keys to the kingdom is what are they interested in?

Right? And how often are they watching some YouTube and you're like, I don't know what nonsense you're watching or, know, but why are you watching this? Like, those are the keys to the kingdom. Hey, do know what I was reading about? I was reading up about this Mark Rober guy that you're so into. Do you know, I didn't know he worked for NASA. do you know what I mean? Like, that's the key to kids. Because fundamentally, what we all want, us as adults as well, is we all want to feel seen, heard, and understood. Right?

And so we've all had that feeling where you might be really interested in something and somebody shows an interest in that, where they like, tell me more, you know, or they, they engage with that because now all of a sudden I feel like I feel seen. And I think that's one of the first things to do, you know, but yeah, definitely I think around, you know, when it comes to those moments that matter, like family moments around the table, maybe let's not have our devices with us or let's put the news off or let's just, you know,

go around, you know, I often talk to parents about, you know, what was the biggest mistake you made if we're looking at mistakes, know, the biggest setback I've faced and this is what I've learned. Like, I think sometimes we can bring our normal aspects into this, because kids sometimes put us on this pedestal thinking, you know, mom and dad have it all figured out and they do nothing wrong and they're perfect and they don't have any negative thoughts. But actually, let's normalize some of these things. And for me as well, like the one tip I can give is really like, what is your child interested in?

start that. You don't need to get it. You don't need to understand it, but can you start to show a genuine interest for 10 minutes?

PJ Ellis (30:16)

I'm now an expert because of that in Pokemon Go and Japanese literature.

Natalie Costa (30:21)

There you go, you see?

But it's also these moments, you know, that we, this is what's building that foundation of staying connected because that's what's keeping the door open. So that when your children are struggling, like it's, you know what mean? You're keeping that door open because they know, okay, like, you know, if daddy's not judging me on Pokemon Go or this YouTuber, and fair enough, I mean, I'm not saying what kids always watch is what we want them to watch, but I've got far more.

better chance of influencing them in the right direction if I'm coming at it from curiosity, collaboration versus judgment, especially between and teen years, know, where that what might've worked as a child doesn't always necessarily work when they're older.

Andy (31:09)

I'm right there in those trenches right now, definitely.

Natalie Costa (31:13)

I do, I do. And you've just got to like pat on the back, like, this is tough. Like nobody's taught me how to do this, you know, and, but also trust like I am doing the best that I can and it doesn't need to be perfect. It won't be perfect, you know, so let's take that off the table.

Andy (31:31)

So if we could just go into the workplace a little bit then, Nastalee, in terms of the support given to parents. So just let me get my understanding right. I could be working for so-and-so company and they might bring someone in like yourself to offer support to parents. What does that typically look like? What does that involve? How do you get involved with these sorts of companies?

Natalie Costa (31:51)

I'm gonna...

Yeah, I mean, how I've been involved, I think it's through word of mouth. A lot of it's been through word of mouth. Friends of mine worked at companies ⁓ and referrals. Typically, and I think we saw a real, well, I saw a boom in terms of companies recognizing we need to support our working parents during COVID. Parents were homeschooling, really stressful on both fronts, you know. ⁓ And so the work that I do today is very much

around how can you support your working parents to be better parents but also all of these skills are transferable skills because whether you're a 5, 15 or 55 negotiating with a five-year-old you might have to negotiate with a 55 year old the same skills apply and it blows my mind you know and I'll typically work with some parents that are high performers and talk you know ask them a bit about what they do for their you know their their career and so often they're leading teams and they're doing these things

PJ Ellis (32:36)

Thank

Natalie Costa (32:52)

leading with empathy, reflective listening, connection. And they're doing that with their teams, but your teams at home as well. Your teenager needs that the most. So there's already a lot of transferable skills there, but when I go into companies, it either is on specific topics like, ⁓ you know, helping my child, talking to my children about difficult world events is something that I've been asked to speak about recently based on what's been going on.

But next week I'm with a company where we're looking at emotional fitness and leading under pressure, both at home and at work. Because again here, we're going to be going into what stress does to our system, how it narrows our thinking, whether you're dealing with that difficult email or your child. But also helping companies recognize, know, it's gone are the days where just leave your problems at the door. We're a whole human being.

And so often my problems don't stay at the door because I'm worried about what's happening with my son. He's being bullied. I'm also having to care for my elderly parents. So that's coming into play. And that's affecting how I'm showing up. That's affecting how present I am. That's affecting my focus and my productivity. so there's the topics that I do are parent child led in terms of how to deal, managing your teens.

friendships and, you know, helping your team with anxiety or navigating the summer holidays. But then there are also topics that are more, I'd say the lenses turned on me as the adult is whether I'm a parent or not, where it's around dealing with pressure, dealing with parental mental load is a huge one that I often get and helping companies understand that. And I think it's really great to see how companies are taking this on board because, you know, the working parent workforce, it forms a huge part.

of a company. And if your parents also know, well, look, there is this support, I'm not alone, because that's one of the key things, I'm not alone. Here are actually some practical things that I can actually start to do. But equally, this is going to support me when I've got to deliver that meeting this afternoon as well, versus, you know, with my my teenager at home. I think we've still got some way to go with companies. Because to me, again, it's about

It goes back to like my main purpose of raising a generation of connected humans. Now, you might not be a parent, but you're managing parents. You've got parents in your team. I'm going to be a far more effective leader if I know how to support them more effectively ⁓ versus, well, just do your job. But actually I'm going to keep them as well because if they know they've got the support and the retention rate is there. And it's a win-win because whatever they learn, like I said, we're all big kids walking around trying to run companies, right?

we have a duty of responsibility because the next generation is going to come. And if I've got more present, I'm not saying stress free parents, that's not at all, but if we've got parents that are more present at home and at work, that's going to impact the relationships that they build. That's going to impact the next generation that comes up, who fundamentally are going to be the generation looking after me at some point or another.

PJ Ellis (35:58)

Where does it start then?

do you think the work has to start with the parents or the children?

Natalie Costa (36:03)

Yeah,

And you know, this is something I'm really passionate about now because there is so much focus on, but what do I do with my child? What do I say? And this is part of the work that I do in the corporate space as well is, okay, yes, we need to learn. And for me, it's about, need to learn to be the steady adult. Steady doesn't mean I'm calm. Steady doesn't mean I don't feel my emotions. Steady doesn't mean I'm not feeling challenged. Steady means this is tough right now.

and I'm actually having a really tough time and I know I'm more than capable of taking the next step. That's what steadiness is, right? It doesn't have to be perfect, but I need to become the steady adult that I need first so that I can be steadier for the people around me. And that's what we miss because I'm focusing on what I need to do for everyone else, but actually how can I become the steady adult that I need first?

And it does come down to, know, not so simply said, but so much of this is down, hold on, hold on, send to yourself first. And like I said, it doesn't mean that things aren't hard. You could be going through the loss of your parent and you've got your child that's being bullied and school refusal, right? And it is really hard and you don't have all the answers. And it's acknowledging, know what, right now this is a season that's incredibly tough.

and I'm more than capable of just taking that next step. What am I going to do right now? Don't have to know all the answers. But that in itself, I've got goosebumps, but that in itself is like, yeah, I need that. Like I need that. Like it's going to be okay. It's going to be okay. But you've got this. And we've not built that for ourselves. And it's interesting because I've had numerous, I've not put it up yet, but there's a mum that shared a testimonial where they came to me with all about his son, all about his son.

PJ Ellis (37:36)

Yeah, man.

Natalie Costa (37:54)

But over time they're like, no, no, this is about me first.

PJ Ellis (37:59)

Yeah,

100%. That sense of feeling supported, you know, it's really important, isn't it?

Natalie Costa (38:03)

Yeah,

yeah, yeah. And I think it's also letting, you know, letting go of the expectations. I think there's also the self-compassion piece is so important too. And I know Dr. Kirsten Neff does a lot around self-compassion and you know, how it feeds into resiliency because it is hard. There are absolutely gonna be seasons where it is so tough. And just because it's tough doesn't mean you're failing. That's the other thing as a parent or that you're doing anything wrong.

It's tough because it's tough and I'm capable.

PJ Ellis (38:36)

Yeah.

Love that. Just adding to the sort of default pair and guilt that we get anyway.

Natalie Costa (38:43)

⁓ we don't need to add to that because that comes,

that was a parcel you never asked for. That was a parcel you never asked for, you know? And I think guilt, guilt is an interesting one because guilt is one of those things that can so easily leak your energy as well that it's just taking, you know, we've got to find out amount of energy per day. And we all know, like, if you sleep well, if you're, you know, well hydrated, like you're going to have days where your child says something, you're like, yeah, it's not a big deal. You've just got more patience. And other days we're like,

PJ Ellis (38:49)

⁓ my word.

Natalie Costa (39:13)

you just, you flip. ⁓ And I think guilt is one of those that you can easily kind of leak your energy without realizing it. And as I say to, you know, all my working parents, it's so often the guilt is there. I'm not at football practice, but I'm going to be in a meeting. But if we think about it, guilt essentially is if I feel bad because I've done something wrong. Now doing something wrong is yes, I've yelled at my child and maybe I've said something I really shouldn't have said. Yeah, maybe that was not the right thing. Should feel guilty about that. And then use that guilt.

to help me move forward in a constructive way. It's not to beat myself up. It's like, okay, what can I learn? What can I do differently? Right? I'm human. But a lot of the time, the guilt that we feel is actually because we're pulled between two things or three things that we value. I value work. I value my kids. ⁓ And sometimes those buckets, those buckets will never be 100 % the same. But just because I'm at work, you know, late nights, I'm not making all of the concerts, okay.

where can I then be present with them in those moments? And I think there's also an element of them when it comes to accepting the fact that there will always be something, right? But even that acceptance can be like, okay, all right.

Andy (40:22)

Yeah.

Just wanted to go back to, I love all of that and I totally buy into that Natalie. one of the comments you made a little bit earlier about emotional fitness, I think you said you're doing quite a lot. How can we maintain our emotional fitness as parents? Any kind of suggestions?

Natalie Costa (40:39)

Okay.

Yeah, I think ⁓ a few different ways. It begins with having the lens of have the courage to lean into the uncomfortable emotions, whatever that might be. Now, because often we want to fix, we want to problem solve. want to know that you can do this, right? Your child comes to you, you can clearly see what they need to do. You can performance manage that. Actually, like, let me just sit here with this discomfort of me not fixing it or, you know, in terms of actually tell me more.

what do you think about that? Or if your child is really sad, how often do we say, don't cry or don't worry or you'll be fine? Let me actually go and sit in that feeling bubble, as I say to parents, just go sit in that sadness with them. Be like, hey, do know what? It's really tough when your friend decides not to play with you. It's really heavy. You know, that's a really uncomfortable feeling. Let's just sit with it for a bit. And other ways as well that I do this to give some of my parents that want to do something, do something.

Right, let's even sit with our own feelings. So you yelled at your kid or you're feeling anxious about a presentation. Let me just take five minutes to sit with this anxiety. Where do I feel it in my body? What shape is it? What color is it? Is it heavy? Is it light? ⁓ What object is it? And then asking, what does this feeling need right now for me to feel safe, calm, or in power? One of the other things we also do, I share what I call an emotions wheel.

because so often we are very good at saying I feel happy, mad or sad and maybe stressed. But maybe think actually through that emotions will helps us build the emotional vocabulary. Maybe I'm feeling stressed, but actually if I think about it, I may be feeling unappreciated. I'm feeling a bit resentful. I'm feeling tired. And actually maybe now this is telling me I need to ask for help or I need to say no. But we rarely go as deep as that. We just go unstressed.

And this is how we started to sit with those uncomfortable emotions because A, chemically, like I said, we feel the emotion for 90 seconds. Let's just sit with it, right? Because also the feeling will come and it goes. It comes and goes. You know, if you think about it, you've never stayed anxious forever and we're talking, you I'm somebody that has a very good relationship with my anxiety, you know? And there are some days when it was really bad that I was like, okay, it's here. Okay, it's recognized it's here. And actually I'm still going to carry on.

but it's here. Now that's in extreme cases. But again, when we can start to develop what I call emotional granularity, where I can become better at labeling my emotions, A, I'm becoming more self-aware, but also it reduces the intensity of the emotion within the feeling part of the brain, also studies have found. And the best way to do this with kids is even if they are like, well, I don't know where I feel anxious. It's like, do you know what? I'm kind of feeling, it feels bit heavy in my chest. I can kind of feel it here.

What can I in my stomach? Okay, interesting. I wonder what I need right now. And nine out of 10 times, like maybe I need a breath. Maybe I need to ask for help. Maybe I just need to, it's just pause. Let's just be present. But I will say this can feel very uncomfortable if we've never done that before. And the uncomfortability is a part of the process.

Andy (43:56)

Yeah.

Mm.

Natalie Costa (44:09)

That's a big part. want to expand our window of tolerance to be a bit uncomfortable. And also I will say, you when we're doing this with our kids, if we're naturally the kind of parent, working with a mum at the moment as well, you know, she just wants to project manage her kids like, but do this, do this, do this. And we're working really hard on like, sit with the fact that you can't fix it. Because also the more you try to fix it, the more you're sending the message to your child that you shouldn't be having this feeling.

And I know as well, like the worst thing you can say to somebody that worries is don't worry. Because then I'm like, well, the worry is here and now I shouldn't be having it. So that's like another thing that I'm like feeling on top of that. Whereas actually, if you can be like to know what that sounds like it's tough, tell me more. You know, it's really hard. What you're doing there is you're showing your child, I'm not scared of your feelings and it's safe to feel this. And we're gonna work through that.

Andy (44:54)

Mm.

Well, a selfish question for you. The chemicals last for 90 seconds. It definitely feels like it lasts longer than that in the middle of the night. That's the hardest part, right? What should we be doing at 2am when everything's going around our heads?

PJ Ellis (45:06)

Amen.

Natalie Costa (45:14)

Yeah, at middle of night, huh?

PJ Ellis (45:22)

Ugh.

Natalie Costa (45:22)

So

I'm not the sleep expert, but I can absolutely attest to that. The 2 a.m., 3 a.m., the feelings feel intense. They feel intense. I have definitely started to, I'll give you a trick that I've learned, that this was from a sleep expert, I cannot remember his name, but one of the things I always, what I often say to myself, and especially having to learn to navigate anxiety, and mean, there was a period of time, probably about two years ago, two, three years ago, and I caught my ear of the cloud.

that I would wake up and every morning I'm waking with a sense of dread. Like it's heavy. I literally feel like I'm going to be told off, like I'm in trouble. I'm like, A, with who, with what? It doesn't make sense. But that feeling of impending doom is what I would wake up with. And it would slowly start to dissipate around lunchtime. And then by the middle of the day, I'm like, what was that about? But what I started to realize is in the morning, I'm like, just because the feeling's here doesn't mean...

And when I say it's not true, because it's true that the feeling is there, but it doesn't mean it's true, all of the things it's telling me it might be meaning. This is just, so what I often say to myself is this is chemicals cortisol waking me up in the morning. It's just a cocktail and I see like a science experiment going off in my brain, right? That's one of the things. But just as a practical tip, one of the things that I've started to do is I'll pick a word and it's a neutral word, it's like table, bed, whatever. And you take the first word, tea.

And you're like, okay, how many other nouns can I find that starts with T? And then once you've done that and it's really hard, I can't think of many nouns at the middle of the night. They all go too fast. I'm like, that's wrong. But then I'll start thinking of, and that, cause what you're doing is you're giving your brain something to focus on. Something else that also works quite well. And I do this with kids is imagine your favorite space. one of the ⁓ children, like they had this beach house.

I'm like, right, imagine all of the details, like literally walking up the path. What does it feel like? Like the details of the door, the windows, each room. And you go into each room about, you don't end up finishing the house because your brain started to relax. You've given your mind something to focus on. And again, what keeps those feelings alive are that worst case scenario. You we're borrowing drama from the future at 3 a.m. in the morning where it's like, well, this is gonna happen and this is gonna happen and this is gonna...

So we want to just give our brain a different task to pay attention to. ⁓

Andy (47:45)

Thank you.

PJ Ellis (47:47)

It's what I

do that is it's exactly what I do pick it pick a word and then Real off all the other and there's another one. You pick a number and you can't backwards in sevens Weirdly enough. I don't know what that is. Yeah, that's the that's the mathematician in me. I'm asleep by 923 or whatever it might be so no worries right? So

Natalie Costa (47:52)

Yeah.

yeah, no. Yeah,

PJ Ellis (48:06)

We talk about parenting, ⁓ that leadership sort of skills that we need to give to our kids.

we're looking at like progressive parenting. What should that progressive leadership look like when they're talking to their employees who are parents

Natalie Costa (48:15)

Mmm.

one of the things that I teach is as well, the leading with empathy, right? It's leading with empathy. It doesn't mean I, it doesn't mean we, it's let me meet the person where they're at first versus try and put all my agenda, like, you know, again, with kids, you know, connect before you correct. Now, we might not want to correct our employees, but you know, it's, want to connect first before I, before I model, before we problem solve.

Because again, it comes back to the same principles apply, we all want to feel seen, heard and understood. And even though you might be going through a really tough time, do you know what it must be, you know, it's we tell me a bit more about what's going on. I've noticed, you know, whatever the targets haven't been hit. And I get that there's a lot of pressure. But I'd also like to know now how what does support look like for you? What's help? Let's just understand the human.

first, if we can lead from leading the human, seeing the human behind the behavior, the human behind the actions, and of course, you know, with grown adults, there's more responsibility there than a 15-year-old or a five-year-old. But we all want to feel seen, heard, and understood. And I think that the good leaders are, it's, and sometimes the good leaders is actually, know, I know that maybe this isn't the right fit because of the things that, you know, that's being asked for you. Maybe that is not the right fit for you.

But it's how that message is delivered. That they're not made to feel wrong or made to feel inadequate or made to feel less than. Because if you think about the same with parents, go to your room because you've been mad or angry, think about what you've done. I mean, they're not going to think about what they've done. They're just going think about how bad they are or how much they hate you in that moment. But it's, we internalize that into it must be about me. So I think that the leadership aspect, yes, in this podcast is I've got to lead with empathy. I've got to connect first.

PJ Ellis (49:58)

Okay.

Natalie Costa (50:09)

But also as I do in my parent practice, it's compassionate, assertive parenting. It's not, okay, connect, connect, connect, do what you want. It's we connect, we understand, and this is still what we need to do. So how can we collaboratively make that work if possible? But if not, then maybe something else is needed. And as being the adult, you've got to be the adult.

PJ Ellis (50:29)

Wow.

Yeah, what did you say early?

Become that steady adult that you need first. Yeah, yeah. ⁓

Natalie Costa (50:35)

you need. Yeah and

I think as a leader knowing that you're not always going to make everyone happy either. Same as a parent, you're not going to make your kid happy all the time.

Andy (50:45)

the comment I loved about the parent-kid relationship, and it really resonates with me, we've got to be the substitute prefrontal cortex. That's such a good... It's so good. I love that. And I know this isn't the last time we'll be speaking with and working with Natalie. So it's a good place to end for me because it'll to be continued.

Natalie Costa (50:55)

Thanks

PJ Ellis (50:56)

That's top of my rind up here man. Love that.

Natalie Costa (51:06)

Not anything.

Amazing. No, thank you. I've loved the conversation today. Thank you so, so much.

PJ Ellis (51:16)

You're welcome, Natalie. We always round up with a few takeaways. parents need to be their kids substitute prefrontal cortex. Thanks for stealing that, Andy. There is only one space for adults in our relationship with our kids and that is not them. I love that. We can't get it wrong if we are repairing and taking ownership. Neuroplasticity rules. It's the muscle of our mind. Have the courage.

to lean into the uncomfortable, sit in that feeling bubble. Parenting can be more of a challenge because there is a lack of a village. And this one, what are the keys to your kid's kingdom? All we want is to be seen, heard and understood. Come to them with curiosity and collaboration and not judgment. And this one, this one connects before we correct. And always remember, negotiating with a five-year-old and a 55-year-old.

Natalie Costa (51:49)

Mm.

PJ Ellis (52:10)

can actually be very, very similar.

Andy (52:12)

this is for all the employers out there, the CPOs, the HR directors, the head of L &D. Always remember the parental mental load that your employees have.

Natalie Costa (52:21)

Yeah, it's

huge. Huge. Huge.

PJ Ellis (52:23)

⁓ 100%, man. 100%, 100%. I've put

it here, man. The stress just reduces all that sort of opportunity to, to honestly, Natalie, we could talk forever. I'm sure we can. And from that conversation alone, though, I am certain that will be massively, massively reassuring for anyone that's listening. bit like me and Andy and yourself, Natalie, that's trying to juggle, let's say, ambition with responsibility, family life. You are definitely raising

Natalie Costa (52:30)

Yeah.

Thank you.

PJ Ellis (52:52)

a generation of connected humans. And for that, we are forever grateful. Thank you very much, Natalie Costa.

Natalie Costa (52:54)

Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. I've loved it. Thank you so much. Honestly, love the conversation. Brilliant questions. Thank you.