So they might start out by falling into something, but then they might
realize, oh, hang on, hang on a minute.
Why am I interested so much in this particular arena?
What is it about this that drives me?
And they might be curious then to go and dig more into the detail
to understand about themselves.
Now, I, I.
Think it is pretty impossible to help others unless we have a deep
understanding about ourselves.
And unless we've taken that time out to self-reflect and
ask ourselves those questions.
Welcome to Passion and Profits Without Burnout.
I'm your host, Jacob Moore.
I'm a speaker, coach, childhood suicide loss survivor and filmmaker who left
Hollywood to follow my heart of service.
I've helped tens of thousands of people find the balance in their
life between passion and profits.
On the show, I'm gonna teach you how to build a trauma responsive,
resilient, and impactful community and organization, all without burning out.
Let's get started.
Well, hello and welcome to Passion and Prophets.
I am joined today by Michelle Suk, who is, outside of Marsai, France, and,
a a place that I think is just quite lovely and can't wait to return to.
Michelle, thank you for joining me and, and being here to share your expertise.
Thank you for asking me, Jacob.
Of course.
this topic I think, is fascinating and one that is, I I think we could
probably talk for hours and hours about it and, yeah, probably, and perhaps
we'll get the chance to do that first.
For today, I want to dig into, just starting with a definition, what
is neurolinguistic programming?
So, neurolinguistic programming is a, is a technique, Basically started
by Richard Bandler and, it's, it was where they monitored and, and looked
at the patterns that best, what they considered best practice therapists
to be using in terms of their results.
So the results that they were getting were outstanding.
They wanted to understand why that might be the case.
they followed them.
They looked at what they were doing, and they came up with these
series of tools and techniques that could be used with individuals.
It's looks at the subconscious mind.
It looks at the way.
Patterns form in people's behaviors.
It looks at their language in terms of how they might use their language, and
then looking at all those things and putting them together, it, it helps a
coach, guide and aid an individual to, improve the situation that they're in.
Whatever situation that is, it's, it's a little frustrating for me
that it's not, well, it's well known, but it tends to fall in two camps.
people absolutely hate it.
And people are, people absolutely love it.
and I've, I've not come across, a huge amount of people that
really know that much about it.
and I think it's a real shame when you can, when you compare it to other
therapies such as talking therapies.
Cognitive behavior therapy.
I think it really, it, it kinda earns its place alongside those, but it
hasn't necessarily had the monetary investment behind it to investigate
its efficacy and, and the, the outputs that individuals can make.
So I hope that answers your question.
Yeah.
Very, very much.
And so sort of, if I can crudely summarize, it is becoming
consciously aware of what we are unaware of and understanding.
How that subconscious programming really drives our behaviors, our,
our actions, the, the things we say and what we really define as, us.
Is that
right?
Absolutely.
That's a perfect summary.
So I'm curious then can, can you just share, because I.
I really focus a lot on this idea of mindfulness and, being aware of, you
know, my, my present circumstances, my thoughts, my breath, things
of that nature, my surroundings.
how does neurolinguistic programming differ from.
Simply being mindful.
Well, I think you can be mindful in the moment.
I think I always thought I was mindful in the moment, as in I
was present and future focused.
I wasn't very, past focused at all.
I, if you like, I had a bit of a delete, mentality where I didn't
really think about the past.
I didn't dwell on the past.
I was always thinking about the here and now and the future.
So in that space of being present here and now, that's fine, but
if we have no understanding of how our pastors affected us.
You dunno what you don't know, right?
Mm-hmm.
So you think that you are behaving in a particular way just because
that's the way you are made.
That's who you are, that is what you do.
What I think can be a revelation to some people, and, and in my case
it was, was that the reasons I was behaving in certain ways were because
of my past and they did drive me to.
Be very determined to work very hard over hard on times to not give myself a break.
So even when I was in the moment, in the moment, to me was probably quite
brief, but I had no awareness that I could change those behaviors and that
I could actually be even more present.
And really be at peace with, the person that I was, understand the reasons for
those behaviors, and actually just chip away at my kind of personality to, avoid
previous pitfalls that I found myself in.
There's an awful lot on social media now about, you know, mindfulness meditation.
it, it's.
They are, I, I think they are very good practices to do.
I think the problem is if you don't know why you are doing it, or you are doing it
because you've seen it and you think it's a really good idea and you think it's good
to relax your mind, so, okay, I'm gonna practice five or 10 minutes meditation.
Yes, you can be present, but if you return back to your hectic,
busy, overwhelmed life five to 10 minutes later, that's not the same.
Yeah, I, I appreciate that distinction.
And I think a lot of people mistake mindfulness for escapism and using,
a mindfulness practice to check out.
and to your point, if we're just then going right back in, there's,
there's no actual discernible change, behavior change, or change of, you
know, reality or circumstances.
Then it's no different than watching a television show or playing a video
game or you know, drinking alcohol or something else that we might do to escape.
Exactly.
Michelle, I want to, I wanna bring this to some context that
is applicable to our listeners.
so service leaders who are in the business of helping other people in
general, we, I can collectively say are people who, have a drive to.
Help others, to do some good in the world.
And oftentimes that comes, through some amount of self-sacrifice and, in
worst case scenarios, leads to burnout.
I think looking at it through this lens of, of subconscious
programming, I'm wondering, how much of those of us who are.
In the business of service or our helpers, as it might be called, are doing it,
because it's their personality, because it's a natural, you know, phenomena.
Phenomena for them.
Or how much, are people doing this because it's what they were
programmed to do or told to do?
mm they're told who they were or the result of, maybe, an adaptation.
To, something that they experienced when they were younger.
What are your thoughts on that?
I think
it can be a mix.
I think, you know, we're not all the same.
We're all unique.
We have different backgrounds, we have different expectations, different
cultures, different experiences and different advice over the years
from various role models, be it our parents, teachers, friends, whatever.
And I think.
There is something about being service leaders where you could say, well, okay,
that type of personality has a need.
To rescue people to make sure that everything is okay with everybody
to nurture, to care, to, to almost gather everybody in and, and hold
them close, to enable those people to be better people, perhaps sometimes
because they have learned from their own experiences and want to
impart that, that advice to others.
sometimes it is just because it's the very thing that they.
Find is their strength and they find that people will listen to them.
Mm-hmm.
So a lot of it is down to how people tune into you as a person.
If you find you have a rapport with people and you find it easy to communicate
with people and you are interested in the psyche and everything else, it all
can build in a very subliminal way to.
to wanting to help others, but for each person, the reason for doing
that can be very, very different.
I, I would suspect that, for instance, if you were in the category of something had
happened to you when you were younger, And then you have a view that you wanted to
prevent other people going through, the pain or sacrifice or whatever that you had
particularly gone through, I think mm-hmm.
We need to be careful with that because my experience, of course, is not the
same as somebody else's experience or somebody else's experience.
So I think it, it, it can be very complex.
Because it's very individualistic based.
Yeah, I agree with that 100%.
And and I think for many of us who are, service leaders, We
are driven by those experiences, meaning that it was a painful,
oftentimes or traumatic experience.
And so, yeah, of course we wanna help others avoid that.
I think the, what we want to suss out here is, are we doing
this as a conscious decision?
And understanding why we're making that decision.
And what is the intersectionality of experiences, skillsets, personality, all
of the things that you mentioned versus, being driven to do this work, as a.
Coping mechanism as a way of, maybe, you know, healing from,
past trauma or making up for past wrongs or, or whatever it may be.
I don't want to, you know, be, be trite in my, you know, my description.
There's, like you said, a wide variety of, people and, and reasons
why people come to this work.
But, but that's what I, I wanna dig into today with you, is really understanding.
Why we do what we do and, and ensuring that we are making a decision and
not just falling into something or, something, that, that we're, we're doing.
certainly on a career level, is just a result of, a, a headlong stumble into, you
know, the, the path that we're already on.
So I think a lot of us have been there in terms of stumbling,
stumbling into something.
I,
I think absolutely there's, there's no judgment there,
there, there, there's nuance here.
I think because it is entirely possible for people to start out
falling into something because it feels right, but they don't know.
They don't know why it feels right.
or they're very good at what they do.
They may not know why they're good at what, what they're doing.
Mm-hmm.
There could, but I think it depends at what point in your
life you start doing those things.
So it's quite interesting, of all the people that I, that I meet on
LinkedIn, for instance, who are in the service or providing assistance for
others, it is 99% of the time because they have had personal experiences
that they want others to learn from.
however, sometimes I think.
And we can give people advice.
Sure.
But sometimes we learn best from our own experiences.
So I'm not saying to people, well, you can't do any of the things that, that,
that we're, we're kind of warning you about because that would not be right.
We need to learn by our own experiences.
However, I think there are people who have.
Learned different things along the way.
So different, different elements of their pathways.
For instance, they might start out by falling into something,
but then they might realize, oh, hang on, hang on a minute.
Why am I interested?
So much in this particular arena.
What is it about this that drives me?
Mm-hmm.
And they might be curious then to go and dig more into the detail
to understand about themselves.
Now, I, I think it is pretty impossible to help others unless we have a
deep understanding about ourselves.
And unless we've taken that time out to self reflect and
ask ourselves those questions.
Because that would, if we don't do those things for me, that then doesn't
feel right to be in that space to, to be a service leader for other people.
I, I
agree.
And, and I, and I don't think you're saying that we need to, be perfect or,
you know, even fully healed necessarily, but we do have to have that awareness
and have to have that, that search, to.
Really understand, at least who we are, which I appreciate.
So Michelle, let's dig into a little bit of
the how.
I also think that there, there might be a clear indicator sometimes for people
because if we're in a job of, of being a service leader and we're providing a
service with others, and we find that we are getting either more emotional or,
We're judging somebody for their situation or we're feeling, I don't wanna say angry,
but frustration with their situation, then that would be a trigger for me, I think.
What is it about that in this space that is providing that trigger for me?
And I think that's why I talk about self-reflection because I, I have
come across people who, who have been in that industry and they, they have
got quite frustrated with certain individuals who have come to them.
And this is why I come back to rapport between people as well.
Yeah.
and often I, I kind of, it tends to be the.
The kind of coaching scenario where you have people telling people what they think
they should do, which is not my style.
Parti, it can be somebody else's style.
And then, taking offense or being frustrated if that person doesn't
take their advice, et cetera.
So I think, I think there are, there's a little flag to say that if you feel that
frustration, that might be a good point.
Or if you are feeling overwhelmed and overworked and you can't.
you feel you can't continue listening to people's problems, that might
be a point to reflect and go, why might, why might that be the case?
Yeah, absolutely.
I, I appreciate that.
And, and you know, just to a personal anecdote, you know, I used
to do a lot of one-on-one or small group coaching and, had to walk
away from it for, quite some time.
And, That also coincided with professional development for me.
but I, you know, was at a point in my life where it was doing me more harm than good.
Meaning that, you know, the, the feel good parts of helping people, we are
not overshadowing the, emotional toll that it was taking on me or what I was
maybe, challenged by during that time.
it was bumping into that for me and, and I had to, to step
away, for, for a period of time.
And, And, and I think that's what we're talking about here is, is that awareness.
So I, I'd love to dig into, how, how do we start to become
aware of this subconscious?
Because like you said, we don't, we don't know what we don't know.
so I, I imagine that everyone listening wants to know, How
do they start that journey?
So I, I think, I mean, I've already mentioned some flags
that, that I would look for.
So if I, if I look back on my own personal example, I, I was a driver.
I was very determined.
I worked very hard.
I'd been brought up to believe that you work hard for everything in this life.
You know, nothing in this life comes free.
We can think of a million phrases around that.
I, I think my mum used to say, if a job's worth doing, wor worth
doing, it's worth doing yourself.
So everything about my background had taught me that
I had to work hard, very hard.
I mustn't take anything for granted.
I must, do everything around the house.
I must look after my kids.
And I never really stopped and thought.
If this was somebody else in my situation and I could see them running themselves
ragged working all the Ascot sentence.
Mm-hmm.
Looking after two boys, being a single parent, trying to be perfect around
the house, not really having a social life, what would I say to that person?
Because chances are, if that was your best mate, You would be reading the Via.
You would be going, what do you think you are doing?
Because this is not sustainable.
Yeah.
But when it comes to ourselves, for some reason we think we've got the
Superman cake, we seem to think that we can just continue in that way.
So, My, my main tip is to imagine that you can see a, either a double version of
you in the same room or a friend of yours, but apply the same, life for them that
you are currently running, and just have a look to see what that would look like.
Imagine what that would look like.
Yeah.
And if you could imagine that they were there with you, what kinds of
things would you be saying to them?
Would you be asking them questions like, is it absolutely necessary, for example,
to, to do all the work you are doing?
If you could do something in a different way, what could you do?
If you could, if you had choices, what things would you change?
It's asking those open-ended questions to prod the person into thinking we
are more than capable of actually answering those questions ourselves.
It's just easier if you.
Take it out of your head and pop it somewhere else so that it feels like you
are asking somebody else the question.
It feels less emotional and just more logical and factual, and the answer
will come back very instinctively.
While I could change my working day, I could get takeout tonight.
I could see if I could find help to, for someone to look after the children there.
There would be a probably quite a long list of things that you could do.
But it's the fact that we never really ask ourselves.
We just continue thinking it's our responsibility to do all of those things,
right?
So it becomes necessary to start to view ourselves from the outside.
we have to be able to look at ourselves as if we were some, someone else as a,
a third party, in order to step out of.
The, the cycle that we sometimes get in of Yes.
Do, do, do, or have to.
I, I, those are half tos and shoulds.
you know, as they say, you know, stop shoulding on yourself.
Yes, yes.
cause it's, it's just leading to this cycle.
Right.
Yeah, and actually that's a good point about the language.
If, if we start to notice that we're using, I need to, I have to, I should
do, those are drivers, those are very strong drivers for continuing actions,
continuing practices that are invariably, well, look, it's not always bad.
I'm not saying that, you know, if I need to go shopping, Is that a bad thing?
I'm not saying that the, using that language all the time is bad, but if it's,
I, I need to do this, I have to do this.
Very often what I ask is, so what if you don't do those things?
What happens?
Yeah.
And, and in reality actually not a lot, but until we're physically asked that
question, we imagine the world will end.
We imagine that something terrible is going to happen.
Worst cause our imagination is much more powerful.
It goes to the worst case.
Whereas if we actually say, so what?
What if you don't do these things, the brain has to go.
Oh, actually, I don't know.
Or not a lot, or, and it, it can be quite surprising.
Hey, the brain can actually kind just go, well, I, I actually
dunno the answer to that question.
So it's really interesting to just do that.
That's that stopping and thinking and reflecting and asking questions.
Now, sometimes that's more useful with the coach if you, if you don't
necessarily have the tools per se, or.
Comfortable or confident in doing that.
Sometimes it can be useful to see a coach or somebody in that sphere who
could help you, but, but once you've got the, the basis of that, we can then
stop and go, actually, do you know what?
I'm sure there's a way of a different way of doing that.
So let me just stop for a moment and think about it.
I think it's just our human nature that we don't tend to stop.
We just tend to keep going.
So, what I'm hearing you say is, first we need to become aware of.
The, the flags what those, you know, signals are.
And that can be language, can, can be that, I would imagine feeling
overwhelmed, or feeling like, you know, somehow we can't catch up.
Those, those flags are a signal that we need to make a change.
Yeah.
And, and then once, once we do, then it's.
It's coming to a place of, of rest.
Right.
Stopping and asking or, or bringing in this strategy of what, what if, what
would happen or as you said, so what?
Yeah.
And I think, you know, when you talk about the flags, I could almost project
myself back to where I was in that I used to call it, being on a hamster wheel.
I just felt like I was running, running, running, running
all the time without a break.
The, the real benefit of the so what?
Is that it's almost a way for the brain to take a breath is to to have a mini
pause, to just stop and think, which we normally don't give ourselves time to do.
I think there is nuance in terms of there's a lot of
negativity associated with.
Going slower, taking time out, doing things perhaps in a different way.
Certainly the world that I was in was in project management and the project
management style was, you did lots of hours, you worked really hard.
you were task orientated, activity orientated, and.
I think in the corporate world there is an expectation of a certain,
sure, performance, workload, and then there's negativity associated with
not necessarily, working to the norm.
So that's why I say it can be difficult for people to ask themselves
those questions because I would bet most people deep down know that
the, the situation that they have found themselves in is not great.
But they want to be seen to be coping, so they just keep going.
Yeah,
because action or doing is I think the ultimate distraction.
because if we are busy, then we don't have time to, to think or to
feel bad about what we're doing.
but it's a, it's a trap.
busy does not equal.
Productive or effective, it's can be just a space filler.
I, I'm thinking about, the beginning of the year for me, January end
into February is, is a tough time for me for many reasons.
living in a, you know, northern state where there's, limited light, That
certainly affects my mood not being able to get outside, be, be as active, after
the holidays and after the new year.
there's just this, you know, inevitable sort of like
letdown of not having exciting.
things happening.
and then the pressure of this is a new year, new you, you have all of
these, you know, resolutions and, plans and goals for the upcoming year.
It also coincides with the anniversary of my birth father's suicide of, my,
you know, anniversary of the death of a, you know, of a dear friend.
And it's just generally a very hard time for me.
And I find, near mid the end, end of January every year, I'm just feeling
down, depressed, apathetic, lethargic.
And I, just, I can't focus, I can't get things done.
I.
And traditionally I've been really hard on myself.
and, and really just, you know, critical of my inability to get
going cuz it's the new year.
And of course like I need to get going and, this year I, I.
I had some awareness going into the year to say, every year this cycle repeats,
and each year I, I go through this, this same routine, and I find myself, you
know, February, mid-February finally coming out of it and being like, who?
That, that was awful.
and I just made it worse on myself.
So this year, I actually took time off and.
I, I allowed myself to just be, to just experience.
Yeah.
And, it wasn't as though I, I, I did no work.
I, I did some, but, certainly what I, the, the level of
output that I, you know, enjoy.
I, I, I didn't do and, was so much better for it.
So, this is just a small, little case, study of, to affirm what you're saying.
You know, that that sort of being, being aware first is, is really what's
necessary, understanding the flags, and then, and then stopping and reflecting.
And I, and I absolutely asked myself that question, like, what's the
worst thing that's gonna happen if I.
Take time off if I'm not busy, if I'm not quote unquote productive, what's
the worst thing that's gonna happen?
And when we go through those scenarios, understanding that like
in in reality, that that probably is not going to be the case.
And as it turns out it wasn't.
And in fact, I was better off for it.
And now coming into, you know, this season, I'm.
Doing better than ever.
Better than, than usual.
Certainly.
So.
Well, I'm, I'm sorry to hear about your birth father.
my, my own mother committed suicide actually when I was seven months pregnant.
So, and I didn't know that about your dad.
So, I can empathize with that and I think that is a typical example actually,
where I, I dunno how I felt at the time.
I certainly.
Didn't grieve and because I was pregnant, I think I shut my brain down to protect
my baby and continue life as normal.
And I never, I never took time out about that.
And I think, you know, when I, when I look back at the different experiences
that I've had and I'm, you know, a cop, I, I thought it was a strength to cope and
get through those, difficult situations.
I think it takes greater strength to actually self-reflect and stop and
take time out like you've done Jacob.
So, that's off to you.
But I, but I do really think that it's something that we, in our society at
the moment, for me, life seems to be getting faster and faster and faster.
Greater pressure, greater social media influence and pressure to succeed.
To not stop, I mean, only this morning.
Yeah, I was looking at a.
a LinkedIn video where somebody was saying, oh, I don't need any sleep.
You know, I've got a one year old, I, I had four hours sleep
and I can function perfectly fine.
Well, ok, you may be able to for one month, two month, three months, but sure.
How long is that gonna continue for?
Is it sustainable?
Yeah, exactly.
So I think there's this bravado around.
As coping and continuing keep going when in fact, yeah, we're not
machines.
Eh, no.
And, and that's a, a quite a toxic perspective.
And as the father of a, a now one year old, you know, I can say it's been
an incredibly difficult year, and.
I didn't realize how well I slept before, how much I took sleep
for granted before, and, what a, what a premium it is in my life.
but I, I think I.
you know, the, the person that you spoke of, like, right, yes, you can, you
can continue and you can, potentially do your work and, and perform, but
at what cost to your health, but more importantly at what cost to your
relationships, because there is mm-hmm.
when we are at sleep deficit, there is.
many, many chemical reactions that happen inside of our body, that and, and inside
of our brain that, lead to, lessened ability to be able to manage stress, to
be able to create all the, neurochemicals transmitters that we need to, keep our
mood elevated, to engage in relationships in a, you know, healthy, thoughtful way.
And, That's what I found, have found over the last year was the first thing
to go for me was my patience was, my filter, the space that I would
leave in between, my thoughts and my actions or my thoughts and my words.
And, that absolutely has an impact, on.
Relationships, but especially with these little ones, it has a, a permanent.
impact on their development, like we were talking about pre-show.
my, my wife and I were just having this discussion about not wanting to, you know,
ruin our son and, wanting to him to have a healthy attachment style and to, really
just have a, a, a secure sense of self.
He recently started going to, You know, to a, a daycare,
center at the, Montessori school.
And, and it's been a difficult transition for him to go and
spend three days a week there.
and it's really good for all of us, because we need time.
Yes, he needs, independence and a sense of self.
but, we, we were talking about this fact that, Up to 75% of our personality
is developed by the age of three.
And yeah.
And a lot of that happens, so early that we don't remember it in our adulthood.
No.
So who we are is determined largely by things we, we will
never remember in our lives.
And those who have the biggest influence on that are of course, Our parents and
the amount of time that they spend, yeah, the words that they use, the tone that
they use, the, the, you know, whether or not they, you know, pick you up when you
start crying or, you know, need something.
Like, all of this affects who we are and how we are able to healthfully connect
with other adults, when we grow up.
So, so, yeah.
I, I digress on, on all of that.
It's, obviously something that's very, very
present in my mind.
No, I was just gonna say that it's so true because, obviously my, I I say
obviously like everyone knows, but I know my, my upbringing was, not ideal.
I think that's putting it lightly.
and I think that was the very reason why I ended up breaking and, and having or
experiencing burnout and having depression because as you said, I had, I, okay.
I have memory of what has happened in, so I suffered physical abuse and
psychologically abuse on my parents, but I had no memory really of what happened.
Pre seven, but I, yeah, I marched fourth into the world.
I thought complete as a person with very good morals, very good, work
ethic, and had absolutely no idea of the psychological impacts on me and
my future relationships with others, men, colleagues, friends, whatever.
The, the physical impacts on me as a person in terms of how I then drove
myself absolutely no idea at all.
I just thought I was me.
So I think, you know, when, when we're talking about how would someone
know, well, with hindsight, of course I could tell that I was running out
steam and, you know, on the hamster wheel and feeling fatigued, but I
literally had no idea what to do.
No idea.
And, and unfortunately I think many people get to a situation where they end
up, breaking because they, they have, they don't have that support network.
They don't have that advice.
They don't have any outside kind of assistance that could alert them to
the fact that actually these could be, these could be poor behaviors that might
result in, in burnout, in depression, in whatever, of course, which is a,
a long road to recovery potentially.
Yeah, absolutely.
And, I, I really appreciate you sharing your, your story and, and I think
as someone, you know, my, my birth father died, by suicide when I was
six years old, so I think similarly to you, I don't, I don't remember a lot.
Before that.
And, a lot of what I have over time, attributed to just being my personality,
being the eldest of 33 cousins and, someone who is driven and strong and, you
know, a athletic and sort of tireless.
now I'm realizing, oh, those were, those were coping.
Mechanisms and, and techniques.
And actually, as I've gotten to know myself better, certainly becoming a
father has, helped me with that process.
I, I've come to realize that some of the things that I just, took for granted
as being me, like who I thought was me, were, were things that were actually
just thrust upon me by circumstances.
And, you know, and, and I think.
To your earlier point, going through and doing that analysis sort of from
the third party perspective or, if, if you need help with that, you know,
working with a coach or a therapist or you know, trusted advisor, for that
process, can be really helpful because then you can choose what do I want
to keep and what can I let go, what actually belongs to me and what is, yeah.
Something that I can leave in the past.
and I, and I think that brings us full circle to this idea,
that, you know, you, you have to include the past in this process
in order to yeah, truly understand, who you are in the present day.
And,
and this, and I think we've said before, this isn't about becoming the
perfect person, the perfect parent, the perfect friend and colleague.
I think this is just being.
It's, it's adding a layer of richness to something that
potentially wasn't there before.
Once you, once you pull in that understanding of why you might be
behaving in a certain way, It isn't necessarily, as you said about deleting
those behaviors, but at least then you can take some control and say, well,
actually what's useful for me right now?
What, what isn't useful for me?
Mm-hmm.
And what should I do with that now, in terms of what therapy, what, what
tools and techniques are out there?
It's, I, I don't bang on about.
Neurolinguistic programming being the panacea world piece.
It just happens to be something that works very, very quickly
for certain individuals.
and, and I would encourage people to try it if they've not heard of it before.
but if it doesn't work for individuals, there are a zillion other things that
people can try that actually does fit with their personality type or their,
the, the way that they work Much better.
It's just about trying something.
Yeah.
I, I appreciate that, Michelle.
A as we wrap up here, I can see it's, it's become dusk there
in, in the south of France.
And, I want to, give you, you know, the time you need to rest.
so what, what would be the, you know, the.
The biggest takeaway for someone listening, or, a, a next step, an
action item that someone could take, to get started on this process.
What's something that they could do right now today to to begin?
I think I.
Writing a list would be a really useful way of just having, having
time set aside to just write down what elements of my life would I like to
improve if I had the opportunity today?
Because I think in writing that the, the brain has to go to, well,
what don't I like at the moment?
Well, I'm too busy.
Well, okay, if I had an opportunity, then how could I become less busy?
So it's a positive reinforcement of a potentially negative situation.
And then when you, I'm not suggesting we have 20 things on the list,
but let's just say we've got half a dozen things on the list.
It's then going back to those things Sure.
And trying to do, as I said before, which is imagine that's the situation
for, you know, if we, if we.
Disassociated.
Imagine that's the, so that's the situation for somebody else.
If that person is overworking, what advice would you give that
person to reduce their workload?
Because immediately you'll get the answer back.
and I think that's just a really healthy way of disassociating it from self landing
it in a place that is not emotional.
It's not demanding that I change anything in this moment.
All it's saying is that's, that's interesting.
I notice that that person is really struggling with the amount
of work that they're doing.
I wonder what might help them.
Yeah.
And what could I ask them?
What advice could I give them to help improve that situation?
And you just do that working down the list, and then you just sit back and you.
Listen to the information that you take back in.
The difficulty with us, I think as humans, is that whilst we're driving and coping
and moving forward all the time, we're not actually listening to the inner voice.
And the inner voice is usually trying to prompt us and tell us, and
give us warnings about things that are potentially not great for us.
but we tend to slap it away and just go, yeah, okay, I'll just carry straight on.
But giving yourself the time to just sit and reflect with that feedback.
And thinking about what you might want to do with that, I think that
would be a, a really good start.
Yeah.
And, and in order to hear that voice, we have to be quiet.
We have to create Yeah.
The space to be able to actually listen to that voice.
Yeah.
And then, and then acknowledge it.
Yeah, exactly.
Michelle, you have a gift for, for some listeners today.
Can you share a little bit about that and, how, yeah.
Sure.
People might, connect with you if they'd like
to.
Okay.
Sure.
I've recently written a book, in fact, it went live on the 1st of April.
it's called The Silent Child in Me.
And literally it's the, it's the story in my life.
it's okay.
It's based in strategy and sadness, but actually the end
result is really positive.
and it, it doesn't fixate, as I've said on, on n p.
It opens up your opportunities to discuss various things.
It shows the impact of my upbringing.
Into different areas such as relationships, my self-esteem,
my attitude towards exercise, my attitudes, attitude towards dieting,
my mum's suicide and all those things.
But actually, I think there's one chapter that's called, oh my God,
I forgot what it's called now.
my Night in Shining Armor, which was nlp.
So for me, NLP was transformational.
at the end of each chapter, I just ask six N l p type questions for
people, just to prod the subconscious, just to get people starting to think
about the way they're working, the way they're driving the impacts of.
Potential things in the past that might have happened to them and
what that might mean for them.
Right now, it's not a self-help book, as in, I think you should do this.
it isn't like that.
It's purely just to prod the subconscious in an NLP way.
So I have, five copies for any of your listeners who
would, who would like a copy.
They can get hold of me either through.
Michelle at MEUs, which is m e l, Are u s e.com.
so michelle mes.com or they can find me, Michelle Ensu, on LinkedIn.
And anyway, they want to contact me like that.
I'm happy to send them a, a copy of my book, so the first five,
and then, just, get 'em to send me their, their naming address.
Cheers.
That's, that's very, very generous and, thank you for doing that.
And, we'll include links to, all of your profiles in the show notes as well.
So, anyone who wants to connect with you, will be able to do so.
Michelle, thank you so much for your time.
I really appreciate it.
And, thanks for sharing your story and your expertise with our listeners.
Thank
you.
Thank you for inviting me.
Thanks so much for listening to Passion and Profits Without Burnout.
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