Mic check.

One, two.

Got it?

Yep.

Awesome.

Let's see here.

This is episode six.

All right.

Welcome to the to dad from dad podcast.

We're here with Matt today.

Matt, welcome.

Yeah, glad to be here.

Awesome.

So just a reminder for those.

The goal of the podcast is really to just look back and reflect with.

With other dads and granddads on what went well and what didn't.

That's good.

You'd go back and tell yourself if you could.

So excited to have you here today.

Yeah.

And we'll just kind of jump in with a little context.

You know, I. I try to set this up just so that the people are familiar with how we know each other.

And, you know, you and I were just talking.

This is.

This is kind of interesting because of.

Of all the people that I've interviewed so far, you and I know each other the least.

So, you know, I guess just to set the.

Set the stage here.

Our kids go to the same school.

We go to the same church.

We have.

You have a daughter that is in the same grade as my fifth grader.

You have a fifth grader.

They play on the same soccer team.

Right.

So we've seen each other a lot, and we.

Right.

We just.

Just haven't gotten to know each other really well.

Right.

So.

All right, well, hey, let's do this.

So tell us a little bit about your family, your family structure.

Tell us about how long you've been married, how old your kids are, and we'll kind of go from there.

Yeah.

Well, my wife's name is Brittany, and we have been married.

We're coming up on in March, 17 years.

It's a big number, man.

It's starting to get up there.

Yeah.

We've got three kids.

I have an eighth grader and a fifth grader and then a third grader, so.

So, yeah.

And it's all girls.

Even the cat's a girl at the house, so I'm surrounded and outnumbered.

But.

Yeah.

How long have you and Brittany known each other?

We.

Almost 17 years.

We got.

We.

We met at our church.

Okay.

And, you know, usually the way I would have approached it was to just not do anything if I was attracted to a girl and just sort of put out the vibe and hope something happened, you know, and years go by and nothing would happen, and I was too scared to pull the trigger.

But I met her, and I was like, hey, I like her, and I like this church.

I just started going to.

She was already at the church, and so I'm like, I might as well just Ask her out now, so that way when she turns me down, I can move to a different church right away.

But thankfully she said yes.

And four months after that moment, after we had met, we were engaged.

And then four months after that, we were married.

So it was really, really quick and we just knew and.

Yeah.

So, yeah, from there, you know, I got, I think some of the best advice I ever got was Whitney and I, I engaged on her or we.

I asked her to marry me on her birthday, which is coming up.

Gosh, I can't forget it's coming up.

You proposed on her birthday?

I proposed on her birthday.

The same thing with Brittany.

Did you really?

Yeah, yeah, it was, it was February.

Her.

Her birthday is February 9th and it was freezing cold outside.

I had bought the ring like a month earlier, asked her parents and some of the best advice I got was don't do this like two year long engagement.

Yes.

Like if you, if you're gonna get engaged, just.

Let's just get it over with.

Yes.

So I mean, we got engaged February 9th and we got married July 3rd.

I mean, it was a short turnaround.

I think that's the way to do it though.

I think so too.

I was a teacher at the time and so you don't get vacation time because you have these natural built in breaks.

So we had just met each other and we're like, hey, if we got, if we got married, we could do it during the December Christmas break.

But we like, we barely know each other at that point.

So it was like.

But summer felt too long to wait to.

So we're like spring break, that's when we're getting married.

Yeah.

And yeah, it was quick, but it was good.

So.

All right, so you start going to a new church and you see Brittany.

Yes.

Interact with her a little bit.

Right.

What was it like?

What, what was it that you were like?

Ah, yep, I like her.

Yeah.

I think, I mean, it's probably a number of things at first.

You know, the first thing is, I mean, she's really pretty and, and she was wearing.

I remember we met at a party.

It was like a.

It's kind of like the young professionals group.

I was really pushing the young and young professionals.

I was, I was 30, I think, at the time.

And.

But it was like the only, you know, the church was still pretty small at that point.

And I saw a ring on her finger on her.

And like, it looked like an engagement ring.

I was like, oh, man, I missed it with this girl, you know.

And then like, I really felt like like, the.

The Lord whispered in my ear, like, hey, don't worry about that ring.

And she would wear it to.

To ward off guys, you know.

Yeah.

Just, like, she was not wanting attention.

Yeah.

And we, you know, we would hang out at a few of these events that.

That we would have.

And.

Yeah, just her passion, I think, was the.

Was the main thing for me, you know?

I mean, really, you know, I just.

I wanted somebody who was passionate about the things I was passionate about.

And I knew if you're going to make a marriage work for the long run, there had to be some.

Some ways that she would challenge me in a good way, in ways that we would be super in sync at the same time.

It's a good combination.

So.

Okay, so.

So you were already a teacher, so let's.

Let's back up a little bit.

So one of the things I wanted to talk about with you is kind of your.

Your career progression, because I think it's.

It's really interesting.

Um, so you went to college?

Yes.

Let's start from there.

Okay.

Like, what did you do for work right out of college?

Yeah, I. I went to the University of Texas in Austin.

Okay.

And Austin is the.

The capital of Texas.

So, you know, I. I originally went thinking, man, I'm going to be a doctor.

That's what my whole life I had wanted to be.

And then I took chemistry, too, and found out, no, I'm not gonna be a doctor.

I just, you know, it was a struggle.

I just.

I wasn't what I was actually interested in.

And so I was like, man, what am I going to do?

And I was interested in politics and things like that.

And so, yeah, you're in the.

You're in the state capital as well.

Lots of opportunities to get internships.

And so for.

At University of Texas, they called it a government major.

Most people would probably call it a political science major.

So I started doing that and just interning.

And, man, it would fill up your podcast to talk about the bizarre story of events that it turned out.

But I actually started working for the governor at the time, which was George W. Bush was our governor before he became president.

And, you know, intern.

Like, it was like I could open the mail.

When I first started, I couldn't even read the mail.

I just sliced it open and, you know, stapled the contents of the envelope, and somebody would take it from there.

And eventually they started letting me fax things.

You know, it was just like, I started at the very, very bottom, but I guess proved myself faithful in the little things and before you know it, they hired me out of college.

And it's just being in the right place at the right time.

He started running for president at the time, and I worked for his political action committee, which we handled all his political matters.

And they.

Every guy my age and girl my age went over to work on the campaign because they thought that would be fun, but they were just all answering phones over there, and it left me and this other guy to run all his political stuff as governor.

And I'm all.

At 20 years old, probably, and I'm on the phone with Supreme Court justices.

I'm so glad they couldn't see me because I looked like I was 12, even though I was still young.

And it just put me in this great spot where when he became president, eventually they hired me up and I worked at the White House.

And I mean, it was just the craziest thing for a young man to get to do.

But as much as I enjoyed that, it wasn't.

I could see all the guys ahead of me and what their lives looked like in their failed marriages and no time for kids.

I mean, it's.

It's a career path that is time consuming and stressful to the max, as you can imagine.

And, you know, I could just, you know, that wasn't going to be my long term and my family, I mean, my family is very important to me.

So I wanted to come back to my parents and my brother and so came back down to Texas and wasn't sure what I was going to do for a while, but it was a. Yeah, it was kind of a wild ride at the beginning for sure.

You, you just said something I've never, I guess I've never thought about, like, when you work for a government official who ultimately, like, ends up the president.

Yeah.

Is it, you know, the maximum amount of time that they could be the president is eight years.

So at the end of that eight years, like, would you be out of a job like, like if you had stayed with him whenever he got out?

When was that?

2008.

Would you have just been kind of like, all right, well, I gotta find something else to do?

Yeah.

You know, most like the average sort of tenure, I think is 18 months.

No way.

One.

Because of just how grueling it was.

But when you get that on your resume, you.

Everybody parlays that into something big.

Right.

And except for me, I was the only guy who didn't parlay it into something big.

But I just knew, like, for me, that kind of ambition was not real strong in me.

To just make the most money and do those kinds of things.

Not that that's not important, but.

Yeah.

Yeah, I just wasn't.

What.

What was my path?

Yeah.

All right, so you.

You moved back home and what'd you do then?

Well, I moved back and I thought, hey, I'm going to.

I'm going to figure things out.

Like, first I thought, I'm going to move to Hawaii and I'm going to find a little.

I'm going to work in a bookstore and just learn to surf.

And just.

I went.

I was going to go to the exact opposite extreme of what I'd been living and actually flew out to Hawaii and was there.

And again, it just felt like this is.

You're trying to escape, Matt, you know, and we can.

It was like these two extremes of like you're.

You can go all in on just like the.

The career path and accumulating things that are naturally enticing to men, you know, and prestige and power and money and those kind of things.

Or it was the exact opposite of just living that life where you're just not.

No stress at all.

Yeah.

And neither of those are that great, you know.

And so I was like, man, I.

So I moved back to my parents.

They had a little trailer on their land and I went from working in the White House to living on my parents trailer.

And everybody else is, like I said, parlayed their time there into these awesome careers.

And I was there for a while and it worked out great because this is time.

My family had gone through some sickness.

My dad had had cancer.

So I was right there to be there.

A very humbling time for me, which was good for me.

And I think sometimes, like what.

What I.

What I was meant to do was so contrary to what I would have ever even thought.

I needed to have a set of circumstances that would open up paths for me that I would have never formally considered.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Which.

Which is.

Which is what?

Which was edgy, which is education, becoming a teacher.

And you know, I.

In college, I was an English minor and because I like to read and stuff and I thought I'll take classes where it kind of flows into, you know, I get to read and you know, something I like to do anyway.

But I was like, what could I ever do with that besides teach?

And who would ever want to teach?

You know, that was my mindset.

My number one fear growing up was public speaking.

Like, you know, like I would.

Like death was actually, you know, underneath, you know, I'd rather.

But public speak anytime that I Had to do that at school is terrifying to me.

So the con.

The concept of doing a.

A career path that involved that was not something I wanted to consider.

But yeah, at that point, you know, my.

I got a chance to substitute teach once and fell in love with it right away.

And then I was off and running in that, in that.

Yeah, that realm.

So how long were you in education?

Yeah, I taught for.

In middle school for nine years.

Loved it.

I absolutely loved it.

Just, it was so fun and rewarding and the impact on so many kids lives and, and I still feel that impact today.

I was just in Chipotle the other day and a dad saw me that I taught, you know, now his kid is 30, but I taught him when he was 12 and he was like, matt, the impact you had on my son.

And like he remembered it still.

And you don't get to see that when you're doing it, but it was just like, wow.

Yeah.

And eventually got into administration and did that for.

So I taught for nine years and then did as principal at the elementary for five years.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay.

And then this is really kind of the interesting part for me.

Not that the George Bush thing wasn't pretty interesting, but I want to talk about what you do now.

Yes.

So you got out of education, being a principal to do what?

Now I'm a pastor at our church, one of the pastors there.

And I had.

So that I had probably, you know, there's a desire to be a pastor, except for the speaking in public part, you know, which I, I didn't know how I was going to cross that bridge.

But ever since I was young, I kind of, I always thought about that.

And the Lord made me wait Till I was 43 before I actually got to do it, you know, and so it's, I mean, it's the church that we, where Brittany and I met, so we were already very involved there.

And even my heart was always there, you know, and you just have to, man, life is just, it just teaches you.

Like it's never as instantaneous as we want it.

Especially, you know, as Americans and in our modern age where we get everything instantaneous, but it doesn't roll out that way.

I found.

And, and those waiting periods are so hard.

But when it finally came around, I could see, oh, it's a good thing that I'm 43 when this happened, you know, I, I work with many young men and who.

And women who are in ministry really young.

And I'm always like, man, that's, that's really hard to do when you young.

And I'm.

I'm thankful that I had to wait.

Yeah.

I wasn't at the time.

Right.

Yeah.

In hindsight.

Whitney's dad has been a pastor.

Gosh, I should know how long?

I'd say probably at least 20 years.

Yeah.

He was bivocational for a long time before that.

He was a very, like an automotive, like very mechanically inclined.

Did a lot of stuff in that field and then was bi.

Vocational for a while.

And he lives a lot of life before he.

Yes.

Got into the ministry.

Right.

You know, and this is.

I just kind of have a question which is.

How has it.

Like, how do you feel like having a career that was, you know, 20 years of.

20 years of career before you got in to being a pastor?

How has being a pastor changed your life?

And I, you know, I'm not asking like, this is such a softball question for you, but, but I mean, like, really, like, what has changed in your life as a result of pursuing that?

Well, there's a couple ways to answer that.

Probably in some sense, you think when I work at a church as a pastor, there's this instantaneous change of holiness, for sure.

And fulfillment in certain ways.

And that's not true at all.

I'm the same guy.

You know, actually, I think that's beneficial for me.

You know, I don't, I don't.

I'm just still the regular guy who struggles with all the things that every other guy I know struggles with.

And, you know, and so.

And I feel no need to hide that or anything.

You know, and then there's this other part for me which is only true not because of the nature of the role.

It can be true for any dad is when you're doing the thing that you're made to do and it's.

It doesn't feel like work, you know, and that can be anything.

It can be anything.

Yeah.

And so that's.

That's been true for me in this.

Yeah.

And it's not just the nature of the work.

It's the nature of the people that I get to do it with too, which is always.

I mean, you know, like, the work is one thing and the people that you do the work with is also so important.

Yeah.

And.

And I've always found that to be the case, but I get to do it with.

With people I love and, and do something that I love.

And that's super, super fulfilling.

Yeah.

Well, I've.

I told you this.

I think it was at New Year's we were together for New Year's and I told you.

But I love it when you preach.

It's.

And I was, I was reflecting on this before today, and I was trying to really put my finger on it because I don't think I did a good job when we were talking that night.

But I think what it is, is you were a teacher for, you know, however long 14, 15 you were in education, and I.

You just.

The style of, the way that you preach is just.

It's incredibly organized.

It's.

It's very easy to follow.

Like, you can tell that you had to explain things to middle schoolers for nine years.

Y.

And I think that that skill set does you wonders.

Yeah.

For.

For teaching people my age.

Yeah.

What's the, you know, it's the.

Is it the 10,000 hour principle?

You know, like, you just.

You got to log the hours on some things and.

And I certainly got to.

To log the hours teaching, you know, and.

And the nature of teaching.

I mean, middle schoolers are a tough audience.

Yeah, for sure.

Like, they're really tough audience.

And.

But also, But I mean, I just, I was made for that.

I loved teaching seventh graders and.

But yeah, you got to.

Got to log some hours doing it, for sure.

Yeah.

Do you feel like.

Did you still struggle with some anxiety about public speaking even.

Even after teaching and being in administration?

So, like, when you said, okay, I'm gonna go and I'm gonna.

I'm gonna pursue the ministry thing and.

And then you had to get up on stage and.

And preach was.

It was.

Do you, like, was that a struggle?

Yeah, it was.

And I found this to be true of most teachers who are very comfortable in their class with their kids.

Like, I had to get accustomed to that.

It took me a little while, but then once I got accustomed to that, it did not translate where I was.

I was comfortable in every environment, for sure.

And one thing with being a principal is it forced me into a lot of, like, being up on the stage talking to adults.

And that helped.

Helped break me in a little bit before up on stage preaching.

But.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

All right, so let's see here.

Let's.

You're.

So you've been in ministry since 2020?

Yes.

All right, so let's see.

So Lily was eight.

Yeah, that sounds right.

Yeah.

And Rosie and Marigold would have been what, 6 and 4?

Something like that?

Pretty close.

Okay, so let's talk about fatherhood a little bit.

Yeah, I guess.

You know, tell us about, like.

All right, well, there's a couple things here.

So when you go Back.

How long were you and Brittany married before you had kids?

I think we were married about three years around that point.

Yeah.

Okay.

Knowing what you know now, what would you go back and tell Matt from that three years before you guys had.

Kids about being a dad?

Like either about being a dad or preparing, like, like fortifying your marriage, you know, like, you know, or maybe like, is there anything that you wish you could go back and tell yourself to do differently for those three years leading up to having kids?

Yeah, we, Brittany and I always look back and on that three year period and like, what did we do?

You know, you're like, like, what did a typical Saturday look like?

Because I don't, I don't remember them, honestly.

I'm like, did we just lounge around and we must have, you know, or you know, go to the farmer's market, you know, because without kids it looks very different.

That's right.

You know, so on the practical end, I would just said, hey, take advantage of that season, like to the max, like, do trips, do.

I mean, you know, also you're probably, for most people, you probably don't have as much money back then as you, you might now.

So you don't even have the money, but still figure some way out to take advantage of the.

Just the hours that you have, practically speaking, the other things about the more important stuff about life.

I wish there was some advice I could give myself, but I think most of what I've learned, you have to learn through experience, you know, and almost, unfortunately, it's just such a weird.

I just see this in so much of life.

Like you finally start to figure some out some things out and like, then that season's already over and you're like, I've got this wisdom, but I don't have the season to use it in.

But it's really forming to you.

I would probably just give myself the heads up and say, Matt, you're way more selfish than you think you are.

And you start to learn that in marriage right away you're like, wow, I'm a little more selfish.

And then when you have kids, it really, it starts to come out, you know, and it doesn't come out as selfishness, it comes out as frustration.

Or, you know, with dads or men, typically it can be anger.

You know, it looks like those things, but just giving myself the heads up, like, hey, it's gonna be harder than you think.

But yeah.

So we've talked about this a little bit, like the, the dad anger thing.

And you, you just said something kind of Interesting.

Which is that that selfishness manifests itself as anger.

Talk a little bit more about that.

Yeah, I think it probably looks different for the.

How it manifests for dads or why it comes out in certain areas.

For me, being on a.

Like trying to be more self aware in life, I've.

I've figured some things out about myself which has helped me to understand why I'm successful in some areas or why I'm failing in other areas.

One of my primary motivations is just I love the end of the day when I don't have any responsibilities.

Peace, everything's at peace and you can finally relax.

Like, I look forward to that moment big time.

The problem is that before that moment can happen, my kids need to be in bed.

When they're little, especially kids don't always want to go to bed, you know, or they're taking their time and.

And you're tired at the end of the day and you just want to just sit back and relax.

And the only thing standing in the way of that is your kid brushing her teeth quickly, you know, but frustration will come out and like, why am I getting so frustrated about this?

You know, but at times it's sort of coming out sort of subconsciously.

But as I've looked back in hindsight or as I've, you know, tried to be self aware, I can.

Oh, I've.

I've blown so many bedtimes.

Yep.

And that's a precious moment.

You know, it really.

It's the time they open up.

It's the time of.

It's just a.

It's a cute time, you know, your little kids and their little jammies and, you know, but my eagerness to get out of there or my eagerness or my frustration, I get into task mode with my kids.

It's not relational mode.

Yeah.

And so, yeah, just like it.

That is my selfishness starting to come out in those areas.

So becoming aware of that is super helpful.

Yeah.

Not always helpful.

Still.

Sometimes it's.

The selfishness is strong, so it still comes out.

But yeah.

Just knowing those things now helps me not to be that way as much.

Although just for the record, I'm not pulling it off perfectly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Not even close.

Man.

I think there's.

That's really.

That's really kind of speaking to me.

I've.

If I really think about when I get really frustrated with them, it's normally because they're getting in the way of something that I want to do.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Golly.

I guess I've never thought about That I.

And you know, you talk about rushing through bedtime.

If they listen to this, when they get older, they're.

I'm about to give away some secrets, but we used to read Pout, Pout Fish.

I don't know that one.

Or there's.

Gosh, I can't remember.

It's.

There's a, there's a couple of books that we read.

And I remember before they could read, but we would read books together.

Yeah.

I had memorized like three books and so I could actually say the words faster than I could turn the pages.

Oh, nice.

Yeah.

And I'd be in there and I'd be like, all right, you want to read?

Let's read this book.

Because I have it memorized and I'm turning it like two or three pages at a time, and I'm just saying it, you know, as fast as I can.

And, you know, we don't read books before bedtime anymore.

Right past that stage.

And it didn't.

I really, really remember laying in bed, especially like with my oldest laying in her tiny little bed and I'm a big guy and, you know, in a really awkward position looking at the books when she's really, really little, reading the books.

And I remember really cherishing that.

And she's cute and adorable and taking my time through that.

But the novelty of it wears off.

Yeah.

That's unfortunate.

It is, yeah.

And everything like, like I can look back and go, oh, man, I miss bath time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But in the middle of it, it's, it's three kids, three baths every single night.

There's, it's not, you know, that I've, I've really benefited from.

A lot of guys I work with also have all daughters, but they're at that empty nest stage and them just constantly telling me, like, enjoy the moment.

I would give every penny I have in my bank account to be able to travel back in time and just have one conversation with my 4 year old.

And they say that enough to you.

It starts to sink in, so you start to try to, hey, let me be present in this moment and not rush by it.

But, but in the midst of it, you're tired and you just did one last night, you're doing one tomorrow night.

You know, there's not a.

Like I said, not the novelty of it, but yeah, it is, it is sweet when you can take a pause there and enjoy it.

I think what I've said this before, but I tell you what just riddles me with guilt is this is like, I feel like I really kind of had a revelation here just about the nature of that frustration and anger being tied to selfishness, because it genuinely is when I start to want to do something and.

And then the kids are getting in the way of that.

That's.

That is probably the most frustrated I get with them.

But I tell you what gives me a ton of guilt is.

And I'm.

I'm an old soul, but if I'm honest with myself, like, nine out of ten times, I want them to go to bed so that I can just sit in my recliner and look at my phone or lay in bed and doom.

Scroll Facebook or YouTube or Instagram, which is so dumb.

Yeah.

And I've said this before.

I.

There's no way on my deathbed, if somebody was ever like, man, what do you wish you had done more of?

There's no way on earth I would ever say.

Right.

Yeah.

I wish I had scrolled.

Yes.

YouTube shorts some more.

I'd never do that.

Right.

I would.

What?

What?

And, gosh, I.

But as.

As easy it is to logically understand that to.

To train yourself to break that habit is so hard.

I feel like I live that cycle every day.

Yeah.

I come home, I sit in my chair.

They want to sit in my lap.

I get frustrated.

I rush them to bed.

I lay in the.

I lay in bed, and then the next morning, on my drive to work, I'm like, you are the biggest idiot on the planet.

When you get home tonight, you need to put your phone away and you need to be intentional with your kids.

And then I work for 9, 10 hours, and the last thing I want to do when I get home is sit down and be intentional with my kids.

And it's just this cycle, and I.

Man, I struggle with that.

I think it's like, that's the benefit of something like this podcast, too, is we all probably struggle with that, you know, and it's.

It's helpful for us to hear that, you know, not so that we can all be like, oh, we're all horrible at this, and, you know, let's live there.

But there is a real.

A hard place to be is feeling like you're the only one that does whatever you're struggling with.

Like, that's a very common.

I found.

Like, it's like the.

If you want to get rid of that thing, like.

Like, you want to tear that table down, you got to knock the legs out.

And one of those legs is, hey, I'm the only.

You know, it's the solitude.

Like, hey, I'm you know, the shame and the guilt you feel right by yourself.

But so just us all talking about that, it's like, oh, okay, we struggle with, hey, what's worked for you.

And you know, all those things actually help us to start moving forward and in progress.

Yeah.

So good.

Good to have a community.

Like, that's one thing I would recommend to dads big time, is community of dads.

That is not just hangout time, which is good too.

Like, we need that, but is intentional and vulnerable.

Yeah.

And this, this kind of brings that out for everybody to have some of that.

If they don't have that in their real life, at least they've got it, you know, here.

And so.

Yeah.

So not alone.

Yeah.

And I've so, like, patience is a virtue that I really want to bring into family.

And again, probably one of the things that probably most dads struggle with, including myself, is, is not walking in frustration and anger.

Yeah.

And man, it is.

That's a tough nut to crack.

Like, I will feel like you do.

Like, oh, man, I blew it again.

And like, I'm going to get loaded.

I'm going to get my cup full of patience.

And somehow that cup gets emptied so quickly, doesn't it?

And, and I always.

So as the nature of my profession, I get to deal with a lot of people who are struggling with stuff.

And.

I've just found like, one of those things is, like, there's always a reason, you know, it's not just the way you're wired.

And it's like there's things we can do to get better.

It's a long road and there's not a quick, easy fix.

But this is part of it is walking in community.

Yeah.

I know the kids are getting old enough that we've been talking about it more openly with them.

Yeah.

Like, and making, making some, like, verbal commitments to them, you know, like, hey, we're not gonna, we're not even gonna bring our phones to the dinner table anymore.

Yeah.

That's good.

I mean, they don't have phones.

And you know what?

My 8 year old will straight up call you out when you sit down.

Yeah.

You know, and I.

It's not her.

I don't know, it's weird to say because it's not her responsibility to hold us accountable as parents, but I think setting that, it just establishing that guideline as a family unit.

And then when they, you know, when, when Cali says, hey, dad, you're not supposed to have your phone at the table, and I'm like, yep, you're Right.

Let me go put my phone up.

Yeah, it helps.

Yeah, it's great.

I mean.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's good accountability and, you know, and when we do blow it to, you know, one of the things we always say is like, like, and this is sometimes hard for dads too, is apologizing, hey, I got frustrated and I shouldn't have done that.

And man, our kids are forgiving.

Like, they want to walk in harmony with us, and so they're quick to forgive and.

Yeah.

So, but that's, it's important for us to model that, that part out of it too.

Yeah.

It's funny, we have a, I don't know, this is probably not politically correct to say, but it's an analogy that I've is we, we have a dog.

He's a golden doodle.

He's solid black.

His name's Goose.

His name's Goose.

And we, he's the most affectionate dog I think I've ever met in my life.

And there is no amount of attention that you can give him that ever satisfies his needs, his need for attention.

Right.

He, he would probably, if you, if you could pet him non stop, he would probably lay there and let you pet him until he starved to death.

Like, I mean.

Yeah.

And so it's funny though, because I've kind of realized that the kids are the same way.

And I, I, I don't even know where I'm going with that.

It's, it's just I, you, you cannot do enough with them right now.

I mean, you got to be, you have to be realistic.

Like, there's life that still has to be done.

Absolutely.

But you just, you can't.

And you know, the other thing is I have, I have kind of an extreme personality, like, for the, for everybody that knows me knows this about me, but I'm like an all or nothing.

Yeah.

Guy.

But a side effect of that is if I mess up a little bit, I just write the whole thing off.

Yeah.

And I am trying really hard to be better about that because, you know, it's kind of like I want to spend two hours with my kids every evening sitting in the floor playing Uno Attack or Connect 4 or Bluey, Monopoly or whatever.

And I set this expectation that it's two hours, and then it's kind of like, well, if I can't give them that two hours, then I'm just not going to give them anything.

And the reality is, you know, you think back about your perception of time as a child.

If I, if I could Just in those scenarios, if I could just get better about saying, man, I don't have two hours tonight, but what I do have is 12 minutes.

I'm gonna sit on the floor right now, and we're gonna play as much whatever they want to do for 12 minutes.

And it's better than doing nothing.

Yes.

I don't.

I don't know.

That's.

So it's hard for me.

Yeah, Well, I mean, I think with that.

That type of personality, I mean, I'm sure you experienced there's blessings and curses with it, but every personality type has that.

So I think just not seeing yourself, hey, that's a.

It can turn into a flaw.

But I mean, as you're recognizing those things.

And yeah, I'd say, like, yeah, take the 12 minutes.

Way to go.

But even the fact that, you know, Uno Attack and Bluey Monopoly shows that you're an invested, interested dad, you know, and.

And that's half the.

Like, we all have the dad guilt.

And for me, as by just knowing that there's grace, and I'm super thankful for that with my children.

And I really believe that the Lord comes in when I.

When I acknowledge those things and say I have shortcomings here and working on them, but they're still there in that gap.

Yeah.

Like.

Like, move in, God, help out in the gap so that my mic.

It doesn't land on my kids.

And I've just noticed he's super faithful to do that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So.

All right.

One of the things that I wanted to talk about with you is your youngest is adopted.

Yes.

And so would you.

You know, I guess I don't really have a question there, but could you just maybe talk about as much as you're comfortable, like, what.

What did that look like for you guys?

And how does it look today?

What do you feel like there's any unique struggles that that brings or, you know, just.

And we'll just kind of go from there.

Yeah.

You know, that's one of those things that we talked about.

Brittany and I, like, really early on, I think as we were just figuring each other out, like.

And she let me know I would really feel out my heart adoption at some point.

So you got to be down with that.

Yeah.

And I was.

I probably would have said yes to anything at that point.

You know, I gotta close this deal.

But, you know, I was.

I was hesitant because growing up, my parents, we had.

At one point in life, we had fostered a couple of kids who were in a bad home situation, and it was really difficult on our family in lots of different ways.

And so there's a little bit of hesitancy, but, you know, but yeah, I want to.

I want to do that too.

And so we just waited, and it just seemed like the time just seemed right if we were going to pursue this.

You know, one thing that actually helped a lot is in our church community, we have a really rich adoption and foster.

Yeah, just community.

Lots of adoptions.

So we adopted from China, and two of our best friends had already adopted from China, you know, and, man, it's a whole bunch easier to do something when you have someone to kind of pave the way for you or show you, hey, this can be done.

You know, it's always.

I'm always so impressed with those people who are just trailblazers and go where no one else has gone before.

I'm like, man, kudos to you.

But that really makes it easier.

You've, like, macheted the path a little ahead of us, so it's just so much easier for the rest of us to follow.

Yeah.

And that was true with adoption, particularly from China.

And so we.

We started down that path.

This felt like the real.

Like the green light.

This was the season to do it.

And it's.

It's difficult.

I would.

The adoption agencies and things we worked with were really good about stressing this, but I can see the true.

Like, if you're.

If you're thinking about adopting based, try to fill a hole in your heart, you know, or something you want to provide for something that you never got.

Like, hey, be real careful.

It needs to come from how your marriage is strong not to fix your marriage, but your marriage is.

Is.

It's got some overflow of love and it.

That it can give to somebody else.

And.

Yeah, but.

Yeah, it's a long process, but it was.

It's sure rewarding.

This is probably one of those things too.

Like, people might have the idea, like, you just go to bed every night feeling like, man, I've done something so great.

Not at all.

You know, you're just like.

It's just.

You're struggling with your failures again.

And, you know.

But, yeah, so she's.

We got her when.

When she was two years old and it was.

We had to go to China.

Just Brittany and I went.

We left the.

The two were much smaller at the time, so we left them with grandparents and had to be over there for a couple weeks.

And, you know, you get matched up and there's just like.

You're just like, oh, man, is this the One that we're supposed to have.

And, you know, with China, one of the interesting things is, you know, there has to, like, you meet her, and they're like.

It's like a test drive of a car.

Like, okay, 24 hours.

You get to keep her and then come back and make the decision the next day, State, which is.

That's the strangest thing.

And we're already, in our hearts, settled.

So that's not a question for us.

But it's just starting to get to know this.

This new little person, and, you know, you're trying to attach.

Yeah.

And for all parties, like, it can, like, let's attach in love with each other.

And it's.

It's.

That presents some challenges, but we were just really great.

The little girl we adopted is such a loving, joyful.

Yeah, she is.

She is just the life of the party wherever she goes.

And, yeah, we're in for the ride.

She cracks me up because she came over, she had a sleepover with Cali, I don't know, three or four or five months ago.

And I've never had a conversation with Marigold before, ever.

Right.

And it took her about 30 seconds to decide that.

Like, I'm gonna talk to you.

Yeah.

And, like, it.

You're not.

Like, you're okay.

You're Cali's dad.

You're not a stranger.

Like, and then it's.

And then it's, like, full steam ahead.

You know, it's so funny.

You know, we have.

I always think about those.

Those dads who were, like, athletes, and then they get a kid who is like, I just am into computers and how hard it must be for them to, you know, like, not try to change them into this.

But how do I embrace who my child is even when it's vastly different?

So I just saw this the other day.

We.

We had a.

An event at our school where the dads show up extra early with their kids, and they have donuts, and, you know, and we hear a little message, and it's kind of one of those bonding moments.

And the speaker asked a question of the whole big auditorium.

You know, I would never in a million years say, I want the attention on me.

Let me raise my hand and answer this question.

Yeah.

But Marigold is like, before the question is even done, I don't know if she knows the answer yet.

Like, yes, yeah, me.

And it takes every ounce of me like, oh, no, no, we don't do that.

You know, like, let's not do that.

You know, Like, I even was like, do you Know the answer?

Yeah.

Like, I was trying to help her out, but it's one of those things where as.

As a parent, like, who's my girl supposed to be?

How was she made?

Let me help her walk in that calling instead of just trying to, like, I want there to be family distinctives, and we want to impart those things, but not at the expense of, you know.

Yeah, yeah.

Who's.

Who she's supposed to be.

Yeah.

So she's the outgoing, where we may be introverted.

She is extrovert.

Yeah, yeah.

So it's been good.

Yeah, She's.

She's so funny too.

Like, just.

I don't know.

She just cracks me up what she says and how she says it.

It's almost like she kind of just doesn't have a filter.

Yeah.

Like, and it.

It's.

It's innocent and it's.

It's funny, but she's just like, she's gonna say what's on her mind.

Oh, yeah, for sure.

You know, when.

When we were coming to adopt her and we were talking with the.

The orphanage that she was at, we got to ask a few questions in advance and like, hey, what's her personality like?

And they're like, super meek and timid.

No way.

And she was.

When we got her, she was super meek and timid.

But within a month of just like an environment of love and care, like, it got to come out, you know, and it was just like, that was.

That was fun to man.

That's amazing experience.

Yeah, for sure.

So this is.

I don't know what the.

What kind of question this is, but.

So you've got Lily and Rosie.

Mh.

How.

You know, they.

They were young enough.

I mean, to them, Marigold is their sister.

Like, do you.

Is there anything that you have to do to.

To maybe, like, early on or maybe even still today?

Is there anything that you have to nurture with them or.

Or challenge them?

Because she's adopted.

I don't.

I didn't even know what kind of.

I don't.

Yeah, it's a.

It's a family thing, you know.

So you're signing your children up for this as well.

Just like if you're going to have a biological child.

Right.

The same thing.

So it's going to change the dynamics.

It's going to.

I mean, powerfully so.

And.

And so they have to be prepped a little bit for that.

But there's only so much when they're young.

That's right.

You can do.

And so they've had to walk out that as well as.

And most of it's just the natural things.

Any like if we had a biological kid walking that out as well, you know that, you know, there's a five year difference between oldest and youngest, you know, and so there that that dynamic.

Is.

You know, challenging in some ways.

Like it would be if you have a little brother or sister that's five years younger than you and rewarding in other ways for them.

So it's, it's grown all of us, you know, and it.

Through difficulties of any relationships, you know, there's opportunity for growth.

And that's kind of what we're talking about here in those challenges.

I mean it brings out challenges like in your relationship.

Not just the nature, not I'm excluding adoption, but just as you're bringing a new family member in, it's going to challenge your selfishness and that's going to come out in certain ways.

And so like we talked about earlier, that's true for all of us.

So helping, helping our kids through that and to grow and hard things like this is what I get learning because you know, God describes himself as a father and it just tells you something about the nature of who he is to us and what he wants to be towards us.

And then I see all this, the hard things.

I know he sheltered me from a lot of stuff, but sometimes he's let me walk through some hard things and I have to resist as a dad sheltering my kid from every hard thing because I've learned that that's not the best way to f. You know, like, I'm sure you can look at your own life, Lee, and be like all those really bad seasons or those hard things, I would never want to go through that again.

Yeah.

But there's a part of you is like, man, I'm thankful I went through some of those because I would not be the man I am today without that.

And so trying to think because there's a easy temptation as a father to just completely eliminate.

That's my role is to eliminate hard things.

And, and, and it's not, you know, and so it's to help walk with them through it.

And so, so our kids go through some hard things and that's okay.

Yeah.

And let me be there to help them learn how to do that.

Well is challenging because I want to, I want to take all that onto my shoulders, you know, and, but yeah, that doesn't help them.

No, you're right.

I talked, I talked about this with Pete in the first episode and I've, I'VE really thought about it a lot since then, but it's such a strange tightrope to walk where, you know, I would not be who I am today if I hadn't.

I don't want to be dramatic, but if I hadn't survived what I've survived.

Yeah.

Right, right.

You know, parents getting divorced when I was 10.

And then my mom and I, literally, for the next eight years, moved every year.

We got evicted a couple times.

I watched a tow truck take our only source of transportation away because she didn't make the payments.

You know, there was a point in time where we were living in a house that had no doors, hung other than the front door and the back door.

There was no carpet.

There was no bathroom door, you know, single.

Single bedroom, sleeping on a bunk bed where I had top bunk, mom had the bottom bunk, you know.

And.

I don't want my kids to have to go through that.

Right.

But at the same time, I would not, like, there's no question I would not be who I am today if I hadn't had to go through that.

And you.

You just said we.

We tell the girls a lot, like, we do hard things.

Yeah.

And I. I guess kind of where I've settled on that is the adversity that they have to overcome doesn't have to be as traumatizing is what I went through.

Right.

And I think it's even okay if that adversity is manufactured to some extent, because I think that you can safely put them in scenarios where they're going to struggle and where they're going to challenge.

They're going to be challenged and where they're going to fail and it's going to be hard.

And I think that that's.

I think that's totally okay to do.

And.

And that's where we say, hey, we can.

We do hard things here.

Yeah.

I think, like, I saw this as an educator a lot, especially as a principal, where, like, that's what schools should be designed to do, to challenge, to be difficult, to a safe place where you can make a bad grade now, you know.

Yeah.

And most parents, especially now, are.

They are not okay with that.

Right.

I mean, I've had them come in and argue that 97.

Like, you scheduled a meeting because they made a 97.

Yeah.

And it wasn't 100.

Yeah.

And.

And with the best intentions, you know, but I would say misguided, because not letting them experience that, you know, going back to what you, you know, talked about, the difficulties of childhood.

And.

And I would just Say two Dads, too.

Those can be.

They can produce positive things and negative things in us.

And, you know, one of the things I get to do often with people in my role is to really explore, like, what.

Like I said earlier, there's a reason for everything, you know, and so how I'm operating today is based on something.

And I always get to walk people through some traumatic portions of their lives, and so honor to do that.

So really kind of holy ground to walk in some of those spaces with people.

But, like, what I would say, like, if we were talking like that, I would say, hey, Lee, in those times where you're walking through those difficult situations, one good question for us all to be asking is like, hey, was there a lie that I started to believe in that moment?

Is there a lie that.

That.

That the Heavenly Father would say, hey, I don't want you to labor under that?

And, oh, my goodness, there's so many lives that we walk in, you know, so there's good stuff that can come from it.

Some good fruit and there's some bad fruit, you know, and.

And we recognize the bad fruit in our life, but we just.

We keep plucking the bad fruit off.

And then another.

That.

That same bad fruit grows and really got to get to the root of, like, hey, where, like, if I want to get rid of this bad thing in my life, where did that come from in.

In traumatic episodes or difficult seasons that we've walked through?

You know, I've noticed.

Oh, man, I started.

Something changed for me for good and bad.

And so I want to keep the good part.

Yeah, right.

I don't want.

I don't want to take the baggage, though, of the bad part.

And so just, you know, reflecting.

And what that says to me, too, is I've worked with people who have gone through insanely traumatic events.

Like this kind of stuff you would read about on the news, kind of, you know, and, you know, from being in terrorist attacks.

And no matter what happens, this is going to be challenging to us as fathers.

As big as those moments were, most wounding comes from their own Father.

And like, oh, my goodness, as a dad, I don't want to hear that, you know, like.

Like.

And I think that stems back to, I would say as.

As a Christian, I would say, hey, it's because our Heavenly Father calls himself Father.

He's saying how important that role is, and we get an opportunity to reflect what God's like, and all of us are horrible at it.

Yeah.

And that's impactful.

So no matter who I'm working with, no matter what craziness they've gone through, usually we just start to deal with like, hey, what was your relationship with your dad like?

Yeah.

And even if you had the very best of fathers, there's something that was missing.

You know, I had a great father present, active, loving.

And he would admit this, you know, just coming from just hearty German stock, there's not a lot of expressing of emotions.

And so I'm not like mad at him about it.

I understand that completely.

But I also understand, you know, and that impacted me, you know, and so I don't want to pass that on, that, that, that sort of inheritance.

You know, there's a lot of good inheritance I got from all my family and happy to pass all of that, keep that, keep that inheritance going.

But yeah, but yeah, just exploring those, exploring those things.

It's difficult for us.

We want to move on, you know, but as dads just encourage us, like, hey, remember what you like growing up and let's start asking, what lies am I walking in?

You know?

Yeah.

That can look like.

I will never let my child experience what I experienced.

And so you're super driven in work and you're going to be, you're going to be a great physical provider.

That's great.

But sometimes I can go to the extent of, that's all I do as a dad, you know, and I don't know how to emotionally provide or, you know, so it's not condemning for us to hear these things.

It's, it's growing, you know.

Yeah.

So it takes a lot of exploration, but it's worth it.

Dads, man.

I'm trying to, I'm trying to think here, you know, one of the things I've really just kind of come to come to grips with is a lot of what this is going to end up being is me just figuring out myself in front of whoever's listening.

Yeah.

So.

And I don't mind that at all, but I'm trying to think of some of the lies that I have maybe told myself.

And you know, one, that one that comes to mind is exactly what you just said, but, but slightly different, which is money, Man.

I don't, I wouldn't, I'm trying to figure out how to say this.

I don't want to say out loud that I love money, but I went through some pretty rough periods of poverty when I was a kid.

Right.

And the mechanism in my mind to protect myself from that is to have money.

Right.

Okay, whatever that, you know, I, I, here's the Thing, Like, I. I had my financial advisor at one point a year or so ago, and.

And another guy in my life that I just really trust, and, you know, that we can talk about money.

And he was just like, dude, what.

What are you saving for?

Like, you.

If you lost your job, you'd be fine for a while.

You need to live.

You need to live your life, right?

Like, you need to get a little bit of a nicer car if you want one.

You need to go on that vacation with your kids, and you need to spend, like, the $10,000 to go do that.

You're.

You're obsessing over keeping all of the money that you've ever made, and that is now robbing you, like, your kids.

Your kids.

Trauma is going to be the fact that you were unwilling to spend the money that you're so focused on saving to protect your kids.

Yes.

So, I mean, there's a lot of things I could say to that.

I would say one thing.

So we all have the.

A different version of this.

So with.

With, like, money is a.

Like, for a father, we want to be good at some things.

Right.

And being the protector and provider is a role that we have.

And I think dads can really lean into those because it also can correspond with the American dream and all that.

And I'm doing good as a dad because I'm providing for them.

And I would say, yeah, but that's not.

All right.

Yeah.

So we love vacations in our family because.

And this is really led by Brittany.

Brittany's like, hey, we need these.

We need memories.

Like, it's gonna be important to make memories.

And that costs money.

Yeah.

Do I value it enough to spend it now?

If I'm working from a scarcity mindset that I have or, you know, the security, like, it's gonna be hard to do it because the need to feel secure is so prominent in us that it's gonna be hard to override that.

So for me, it's back to that peace.

I just love peace.

And so I try to make my circumstances peaceful.

That's difficult to do.

Like we talked about with three kids.

They are not down for that thing.

And so then my frustration comes out on them.

Right.

And what I've been really learning is, oh, Jesus says, hey, I am your peace now.

That's regardless of circumstances, you can learn to abide in that peace mat.

And this has been my struggle is how do I, no matter the circumstances, you know, can be a man at peace.

Yeah.

And, oh, man, that's freeing.

Yeah.

Because I can be.

I can have that peace that I desire in any situation.

The Lord says, I am your security.

I'm your refuge.

I'm your.

You know, he's like so many prom.

He promises that so much because he really wants us to take advantage of that.

Yeah.

But, man, isn't it easy to get security and money?

Oh, yeah.

I mean, that's like, especially here in America and just the way we've been raised is that's where it really comes from.

Yeah.

And so, yeah, when with the bank account starts to get a little low, we start to feel a little bit.

Ooh.

You know, and so, like, especially as we all struggle with that with some people more.

So.

Okay.

I need to feel secure.

I need to feel peace.

These are good things.

It's just, where am I going to get it from?

I need to feel intimacy.

I need to feel fullness.

I need to feel purpose.

I need to feel a satisfaction.

Right.

And there are promises that the world makes.

Is this is where you get it?

Yeah.

And it's almost always a lie and it's almost always devastating and you know, you know how the story plays out.

But yeah.

And so I would say as a.

As a pastor in that role, like, we might know head knowledge.

Okay.

I can get these things in other places in the community around me, in my relationship, my spiritual relationship, spiritual side of life.

But how did I actually do that?

You know, how do I actually find fullness and satisfaction in God?

Is it just showing up to church?

I would say no.

That's not actually the answer.

You come in to hear me talk is not going to do it for you.

Let me try.

Let me tell you.

But, yeah, figuring that out.

And you want to be a part of a community that is pushing towards that, with guys that are pushing towards that.

Yeah.

And I think that's so important.

Yeah.

But easy to find.

Yeah.

That.

That money is.

It's the real deal.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's a.

It's the pole for us for sure.

Man.

You've said some great stuff today.

I want to just take a second.

I'm trying to get better at this podcast, YouTube thing.

I'm really curious if you.

If you're listening to this or you're watching this, this concept of what lies are.

Do you believe about yourself as a result of your upbringing?

Yeah.

And remember, it is totally possible that your upbringing was out of this world and there are still lies that you're potentially believing about yourself.

So.

Yeah.

Right.

Very true.

And I would be.

You know, I'm on Here every week bearing my soul.

I'd love to know if you guys, you know, put it in the comments section.

For sure.

Bring some awareness to some of the lies that dads can believe based on their upbringing.

So drop a comment, shoot me an email.

It's Leeodad from dad.com and let me know what lies you're struggling with that are a result of really good childhood or really bad childhood.

Yeah, I think that's a great way to look at it.

All right, so let's talk about.

I want to kind of talk about like legacy, if you will.

Yeah.

And so as we kind of close out here, a couple questions, which is.

I'm going to start with this, which is what.

What is the best advice either on fatherhood or marriage that you've, that you've ever received?

I think some of the best, I think on parenting.

And this, this is kind of super practical one.

And I know I've received advice that was kind of like that higher level kind of state of things, but one practical one is we're moving into teenage years.

Has.

This is the benefit of, again, a community of lots of people who have gone before you and that people that you trust and you admire is you gotta let some things slide.

I don't have to address every eye roll, you know, I don't have to address every, every mess that I see.

Yeah.

And that's a, that's like, I don't want to be an overbearing father.

I don't want to frustrate my children.

So, or, or get them into compliance.

That is just like, I'm only doing this because I don't want dad to be upset.

Yeah.

So just like, I think that is helpful to the child to let a few things slip and also probably more helpful to the parents.

Now that being said, the practice of that has been hard.

It is hard to let that little comment go and just, hey, let's just, you know, understand what.

They've had a hard day.

Yeah.

Just like I, I let some comments go, I say some things under my breath.

Yeah.

And I would hate somebody that are calling me out every single time.

Yeah, I know I shouldn't have said that, but.

And I'll apologize later, but you know, but so that was a super.

I think that's been practical.

And now just walking it out is kind of where we're at.

Hey, real quick.

You know, Pete in the first episode said something that I was processing a lot of that conversation because Pete talks fast.

And I've reflected on this one comment that he said, which was, You know, it was something like, ultimately, obedience is less important than heart posture.

Yeah.

Yeah, that was good.

And I really, as I reflected on that, like, right afterwards, I was kind of like, is that, is that true?

And I, And I think to the point of what you just said, it's.

It's like I could be.

And honestly, this is my natural tendency.

My natural tendency is to be incredibly black and white.

Obedience is pass or fail.

Right.

But I.

The frame with which you just said it is foreign.

It's almost.

And, and really for the, like, obedience, what I'm, What I'm talking about here is, is it's almost like.

I don't, I'm not talking about, like, blatant disobedience, like, disrespectful disobedience.

Like, it was a conscious effort to do the opposite of what you said.

I, I don't think that's what I'm talking about.

What I'm talking about is that it's the eye roll.

It's the.

When I said, hey, go do the dishes, and five minutes later, you're still sitting on the couch playing the Nintendo Switch and I come unglued, you know, that's where I feel like it's heart posture.

Because my natural tendency is to say, hey, did you not understand what I said?

I said, do the dishes.

And you know, a lot of times, especially my oldest will say, I was, yes, sir.

I'm.

I was just finishing.

Like, I was in the middle of this thing, this game.

I was gonna just finish, get to the checkpoint, and then I was gonna pause it, and then I was gonna do it, you know, and I can get wrapped around the axle because it wasn't like, yes, sir, pause the game, go do the dishes.

And I really feel like that's a more reflection on what I need to work on than what they need to work on.

Yeah.

What do you thought?

Like, yeah, when I was in education, of course, I got to see a zillion different kids.

And.

Some of my favorites were the ones that were just the cut ups in class and were difficult for a teacher, you know, and having classroom management.

But if I knew their heart, like, somehow this kid has a heart of gold, you know, he is not fitting well into a system.

Right.

But, like, I would if I could buy stock in a kid.

Like, this kid's gonna go places, gonna do things.

He's gonna have a fruitful life.

Yeah.

And you wouldn't know because he's very disobedient, you know, in this moment And I've had other ones who were all manners, yes sirs and no sirs and.

But, man, I worried about him.

I'm like, this is.

He has been put into a position of compliance, and it's not reflective of his heart.

Some of them are yes sirs and no sirs.

And you can see, hey, I've been taught to honor those who are older than me and respect authority.

And I'm trying to walk in that.

But other ones, you can tell, like, I just know I'm supposed to do this.

And I have been.

I am in submission.

But the moment I get some freedom, it's going to look a lot different.

And like, how do I train my kid for freedom?

Because freedom is wonderful and horrible.

You know, it's.

It's like, how do we.

Because at some point I am.

And we're as a society trying to extend that point.

You know, I just see that with, you know, now I can, you know, you can keep track of where they are at, you know, even when they're in college.

And I can look on my phone and see where's my daughter at?

And is she's at this party or she's, you know, is she.

She back in her dorm?

Can you imagine, like, when we were younger, if our parents could dial in on that, you know what?

We wouldn't even thought that that was a possibility.

But they'll.

They'll figure ways out if you're not giving them the freedom, they'll.

They'll carve their own spaces of that.

And so again, heart, posture, like, what are you gonna do with this?

And not just choose the right things because you, you want to and you see the good in it and you don't mind doing, making hard choices or standing up for what's right or avoiding peer pressure and all those things.

That's.

That's what I'm interested in.

But, man, that's hard.

It's easy.

Sometimes it's easier just to say, yeah, I feel good about myself.

Cause they say, yes, sir, and.

But man, at the expense of the other.

I'm almost panicking in this moment.

Maybe there's grace.

There is like, I for really like, it is like I should.

I should pray this more.

Lord, hey, Grace for all the places I messed it up today.

And yeah, because he.

He will do it, you know, and, and you know, you have the natural humility already that to be, hey, man, I'm messing up here and here and here.

You know, I have a defensive, prideful spirit in nature, so I hate to admit Any shortcomings.

Right.

And to.

So, yeah, I gotta work on that part.

You know, I was a goody.

I was the goody two shoes, you know, I was always.

I was not rebellious by nature and things looked good on the outside, but I had a prideful, arrogant spirit.

Yeah, nobody wants that.

Yeah, right.

Again, you'd rather have the kid who messes up and comes back say, man, I messed up, than the one who's got his nose up in the air.

And.

Yeah, so the Lord had to put me on a path of great humbling.

Took him many years, you know, and I'm still working on it.

But.

Yeah, no, man, I'm just.

I think what.

What's really messing with me about this is like, dude, I was.

I was a difficult kid.

I. I got in a lot of trouble.

Now, it wasn't, you know, it was just mischievous.

It was.

I have a. I had.

I still.

I have an insatiable curiosity about things that drove teachers insane.

Yeah.

I just wanted to know why.

Tell me more.

And that drove teachers insane just because the way it came out then was challenging authority questioning, like, not believing.

But I got to tell you what, that single attribute is probably.

What is probably the number one thing that has made me so successful.

Yeah, absolutely.

I refuse to.

To settle on just a simple explanation of things without exploring the possibility that maybe I'm wrong.

Without exploring the possibility that maybe the problem is deeper or different than what I originally think it is.

I. I seriously think that that is the one thing that has made me the most successful in life, and it is the one thing that got me in the most trouble as a kid.

Right.

Yeah.

And I'm.

You know, the panic comes from, like, I see a lot of that in my kids, and I feel like I'm just trying to beat it out of them because it annoys me.

I'm just being honest with you.

Like, it's.

Right.

Like a kid like that as a teacher is, man, this is like a teacher who's really dialed in is going to love that, you know, and embrace that and, and foster that and not feel threatened by that.

But teachers are just like parents too.

Like, we're tired, we don't want to deal with it, you know, and so it's just let me control my classroom and get through this in a certain way.

And you're not a part of that plan.

So I, I did, I did have some amazing teachers.

That's good.

Yeah, I had some awful teachers too.

Sure.

But it's just like you just said.

I mean, I I had teachers where it was all about compliance.

It was, you know, shut up, get in line, don't ask questions.

A couple specifically that were really hard for me, and there was a couple that are still around that they just, they saw something in me.

And I gotta tell you, like, I don't know, I don't even, at this point, I don't even know who's listening to this.

But if you're listening to this and, and those teachers that, because of what was going on in my life, this is the other thing.

I don't think that, well, maybe teachers do know this, but when I think about the teachers I had from seventh grade through the graduating high school, and I actually, it's funny as I say this, I really don't even know that my dad knows this because so I might be kind of about to out myself here, but like, I don't think that teachers knew that I lived in an apartment by myself my senior year of high school because my stepdad had kicked us out.

I don't think they knew that.

Right?

I don't think that they knew that.

When I was in eighth grade, my mom's car got repossessed and I had to walk to school, you know, like, I, but some of them, man, they just loved me.

So if you hear a story about somebody walking through those things, I think nine times out of ten you're like, that person is not going to do well in life.

And so what was the difference for you?

Like how, I mean, you've got a great family.

I mean, you're going after the right things.

So what happened?

I don't, I, I, I think it could have gone really bad for sure.

I don't know.

I, I think I was blessed that in every period of life.

This is actually a pretty, this is actually pretty powerful now that I think about it, in every period of life.

Like, I, I, I love my dad.

My dad loves me.

I've, I've talked about this before.

I, I never wonder if my dad loves me.

I never wonder if my dad is proud of me.

And he was very present considering that my parents got divorced when he was, when I was 10.

Right.

But I didn't see my dad a lot because they were divorced every other week or every other weekend, you know, in summers and whatever.

But even before they got divorced and even after they got divorced, I have been incredibly blessed at every stage of my life to have one or two good men in my life that weren't my dad.

And, you know, there was a guy, his name was Ray growing up.

And my mom used to just send me with Ray.

Ray worked at the funeral home.

Ray was a maintenance man.

Ray fixed.

Fixed lawnmowers in his garage.

And I'd go with Ray, and he would love me and he would teach me.

Yeah.

And, you know, just all through life, God put these men right where they were supposed to be.

And looking.

I've never really thought about this very much, but looking back, they.

They contributed and taught me exactly what they were supposed to teach me.

And I think without the influence of those men in my life, yes, I could be.

I mean, heck, I could be a felon.

Yeah.

Because I could have easily been a fairly intelligent criminal.

Yeah.

Or gotten into drugs.

Right.

Grew up.

Grew up in a very small town, graduating class of 18 people.

You know, I don't know.

I've never really.

I always wanted to be successful probably more than anything.

Yeah.

And I think that.

That, that was a driving factor for keeping me out of trouble.

But the men that were there, also just incredibly blessed.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, that just shows.

Like, I've noticed even in a family where you do have a father that's always present and, you know, a fruitful relationship there, it still takes other men.

Men.

And again, going back to.

We've hit it a few times that.

That importance of community.

Yeah.

Like, sometimes I need somebody to say the exact same thing to my kids.

They're going to say it differently or they're going to.

Like, I've had our, you know, kids come home from a church thing and be like, oh, they taught us this.

I'm like, I taught you that a million times, but they never heard it, you know.

Yeah.

And so the importance that we all, you know, get to play together is.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that's why I, like, like, like the soccer team, you know, And.

And our.

Our kids, you know, like, if they come over or like, I'm.

I'm glad that they get to come over and be around guys like you or Pete or, you know, any of those guys.

It's just like.

Yeah.

Just another solid dad.

That's.

That.

That is, you know.

Yeah.

Pouring into him.

Yeah.

That's a.

That's a huge blessing.

That's a great point.

I.

And, you know, I've said this before, but I think we've talked about it a lot today.

I just want to reiterate, like, you know, James said your kids live in the culture that you create, and I think something to consider.

And, you know, this could go pretty mainstream secular because you hear a lot of people Talk about, like, if you want to be a billionaire, you should surround yourself with billionaires, you know?

Okay, well, I mean, I think if you, I think if you want to be a good man, you got to surround yourself with other guys that want to be good men.

Yeah.

And I, I genuinely, I think if you, if you want to be a great husband and a great father, you need to surround yourself with other guys that want to be great husbands and great fathers.

Yeah.

Guys that are committed to their wives.

Yes.

You know, and man, in this moment, I'm just really kind of.

Something I hadn't thought about very much though, is the impact of the selection of those people and on your family, your kids.

Yes.

That's big.

That is big.

And part of our role as the dad and the husband is a lot of times I think we'll wait for.

Our wives are naturally more communal and relational.

And men are not typically that.

Not all men.

Some are, but most of us are happy to be alone a lot of times.

And so we're like, hey, we're just going to look to our wives to establish all this community.

And, and they do a good job of that.

But like, there's a role for us in that.

And like any of the things we've talked about, like whether it's.

There's no silver bullet, easy fix of being, getting rid of anger, there's no easy fix.

One time thing I can learn that.

Will.

Establish me as a good father to my children.

You know, it's just a lot of little moments.

Yeah.

And community's that way too, you know, like, it takes time to develop those relationships.

There's some things we can do to start, speed it up.

But just as an encouragement to the men listening is like, hey, take a role.

Include your family in it.

Find where you can get that community and those relationships that you're looking for.

But you said the right thing, like surround yourself with, with like, you got to find those guys and.

Because otherwise we get impacted the other way just like, hey, hey, everybody else is doing all these things and, and that makes it easier for us to do it.

You know, I talked about earlier with the adoption thing, we had people pave the way for us and make that, that works the negative too.

You know, like when we're surrounding ourselves with people who are, hey, this is how I'm doing.

Yeah, you just let my kids do all these things and you start doing it too.

So finding, finding those guys is.

They're out there.

You're going to have to look a little bit, but it Takes some work, but like all things in life, you know, it's worth it.

It's going to take a little bit of that from us.

Yeah.

All right, last question then.

I'm trying to be fairly consistent with this, so you've probably heard me ask, but.

And you know, one of the things I've learned here is you just answer this however you see fit.

But what I've been trying to ask is when you're not here anymore, what do you want your kids to understand about you?

And I've, I've clarified this every time, but it's not how do you want to be remembered?

You know, what do you want your eulogy to be?

It's not that.

It's when I say understand, it's like it's something that you, you can't, you can't tell your kids.

They, they, they have to come to understand on their own or they have to end up believing.

You know, there's no number of times that you can say it, but what do you want your kids to just truly understand about you when you're not here anymore?

Yeah, that's a, that's a tough one, I think.

I don't want them to see, hopefully they see some good things in me and will appreciate and look back on.

It's like I do now with my parents.

I'm like, oh my goodness, they were so present and the sacrifices they made to do this for me and that for me monetarily, time wise, I can see that in hindsight.

So I know they'll see some of those things too, which is encouraging.

But I want them to know that if there was anything good that wasn't natural in Daddy.

Yeah.

Like it wasn't at all like, like I could see where my path, even though it was more stable than your path, but the inner Matt was not stable in a lot of ways.

Yeah.

And it could have been.

I, I, I don't know where I would be without my relationship with God.

Like, I really, I'm scared to think of how cold and calloused and I would have been.

And if there's anything loving in me that you experienced, girls, it's because it started with him.

And some of it got funneled down through me.

Seeing myself as just a, not a, not a great filter.

Some stuff gets added to it along the way that shouldn't be.

And some stuff gets taken away, but, you know, I want it to.

Whatever came through was the grace of the Lord.

And so I'm big on, I'm big on grace, you know, I want to be big on.

For.

For.

For my kids and for myself and walk in that.

So I think.

Yeah, I would just want them to know, even if it looked good on the outside, man, I can't take any credit for that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Your.

Your heavenly father saved you from a really awful father by working on him really, really hard.

Yeah.

For many years.

And so.

That's a good one, dude.

Yeah.

Give it.

Give him.

Give him some.

Yeah, thank him for that.

Yeah, that's a good one.

Good.

Thank him for that.

Yeah.

I like that one a lot, man.

Good.

Yeah.

All right.

Well, thank you for coming on.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

This was fun.

I wanted to keep going.

We we.

Seriously.

Part two coming up.

The part two we.

I.

You know.

Well, shoot, we've been.

Gosh, we're going long.

We.

We've been going for an hour and about 40 minutes.

I feel like we could talk for a lot longer, but listening just like.

One and a half speed, we sound.

There you go.

Yeah.

Perfect.

Yeah.

Why are these guys talking so slow?

No, seriously, Matt, thank you for coming on.

Glad to have you in my life.

Thanks for having me, and I'm sure we'll have you back.

Appreciate it, man.

Please do.

All right.

Thanks, man.

See y.