Foreign.

Church standing in scripture or upon centuries of tradition, corruption and stolen institutional valor, you must understand what the Bible teaches about authority, salvation and the true church.

Hello?

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Just think about it.

You're listening to Stuff and Think About It.

A podcast for the Christian Thinker.

In a day when sound biblical preaching has been replaced by man centered entertainment and the church has become increasingly anti intellectual, this podcast will encourage believers to think biblically and theologically.

So please join me as we get ready to stop and and think about it.

Greetings, friends and foes, saints and sinners.

Welcome to episode 63 of the Stop and Think about it podcast.

I'm your host, Phil Sessa, AKA the Bronx Expositor, along with our podcast producer and also host of the Breaking Bread podcast, Ishmael with no H, Claudio.

And today we have a special guest with with us, the reform rookie himself, Anthony Ovinio.

How are we doing, Anthony?

Better than I deserve.

I've heard those famous words somewhere.

I think this the second time you're joining us for our podcast, is that correct?

I think so, yeah.

Yeah.

Yep.

At least two.

We got to have you on more, man.

What?

It's been a while.

It's been a while.

All right, well, we're back.

Yes.

I was in detention or something.

There you go.

So I've enjoyed your preaching at our church.

You preached in April, you preached in May, and to the tens and tens of people that tune into our podcast.

Also check out our contending conference.

Yes.

At Grace Baptist NYC on YouTube.

And I think we can provide a link in the description.

Is that right?

Ish.

I think he said yes.

And then I believe also up on the Grace Baptist Church sermon audio page as well.

And so we'll provide two links and therefore we have a chain.

All right, let me stop now.

Anthony, it's certainly a blessing to have you join with us on this episode concerning the papacy, divine institution or human invention.

Now, I believe, like myself, you actually came out of Roman Catholicism.

Is that correct?

I did, yeah.

I grew up Roman Catholic, went to Catholic school my whole life.

And then eventually there were certain things that I learned from Catholicism regarding the Trinity and stuff like that that I still value.

But I always thought I had a relationship with God.

In fact, in the eighth grade, I won the Christian Leadership Award without actually being a Christian.

It wasn't until after I got out of college and started doing Some searching and ended up meeting my wife who brought me to her church that I actually came into contact with the Gospel.

I recognized I was a sinner.

I knew I needed help.

And then there was a little string of events that happened.

And it brought me to a place where I was in some guy's basement with like seven or eight guys fearing for my life, thinking it was a cult.

And they had me read Psalm 51 and I got to the end of that psalm and it says, young bulls will be slaughtered on your altar.

And, and what those guys didn't know is I was a Taurus.

You know, I used to follow the horoscope stuff and I was everything that a Taurus is described as.

That's me.

I'm stubborn, obstinate, but dependable at the same time.

And it was as if God said, you could do it your way and be slaughtered or you could do it my way.

And I just looked up at these guys and I said, what do I do?

It was kind of like the Philippian jailer.

What must I do?

And I said, well, we'll lead you in a sinner's prayer and you have to repent of your sins.

And that's when it happened.

And from that moment on, it was like fast forward.

I needed to know everything there was to know about God because coming out of Roman Catholicism, I knew I was going to have questions from my family and friends and I knew I needed to give them an answer.

So without even knowing the word apologetics, I was actually trying to figure out how to make a defense for the faith so that I could not just defend my position, but hopefully see them come to it.

Amen.

Amen.

Well, thank God he pulled you out of Rome.

And as he did myself as a 13 year old teenager hearing the gospel for the first time in another church.

And I just remember, for all you to be was a good person, why did Jesus die for your sins?

And they, you know, they did the altar call, raise your hand, come forward, the whole nine.

But I was really convicted in my heart.

It made sense for the first time.

The light bulb came on.

Why did Jesus die?

If I could just earn my own way there by my good deeds.

Yeah.

And so I remember I was convicted of my sin and just repented and then told the priest, I'm leaving the Roman Catholic Church in the midst of my confirmation.

Oh, wow.

And he was like, why?

And I said, well, you gave me a religion, now I have a relationship with Christ, which I never had before.

Amen.

And so my mother still Said I should finish the confirmation.

What did I know?

So at least I can have a party and get the money after all those years of enduring it.

And then after that, it never went back.

Except for one time when they asked me to come back and preach to a youth group when I had started up a Bible club in my high school.

And they kicked it out, and we fought and got a lawyer, got it back in.

I was sharing the gospel in my high school in the suburbs.

And then since being in the newspaper, they invited me to preach at the Roman Catholic youth group.

And I just preached on what does it mean to be born again?

Amen.

Amen.

Yeah.

That was never taught to me in, you know.

Right.

In all the years of catechism that I went through, going to Catholic school, grammar school, and high school, you know, that was.

Never talked about being born again.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I have an extended family member.

He thinks being born again is being baptized in water.

Yeah.

Yep.

But then if that's the case, you know, we're good to go because we both had water poured on us.

You know, even if we weren't living for Christ, as long as the water is on you, it's okay, right?

Yeah.

The stain of original sin was wiped.

Away and grace was infused into our hearts, you know.

So then I said, well, what about Joe Biden?

He had water poured in his head.

Oh, he's not a real Catholic.

But you said it was the water.

He had the water.

Something in the water.

There's something in the water.

All right, so I have a couple of questions that we want to tackle.

I'm not going to read them all off the bat, so let's just go one at a time.

As far as the church, when you think about the church, who is the church?

What is the church?

Yeah, the church is the assembly of believers who are born of God's spirit, who have repented of their sins and trust in Jesus as Lord and who are born again, born from above.

You know, the way I like to explain it to people is everybody has been born from below.

We've all been born of flesh.

We now need to be born of spirit or born from above.

So all those people who have repented of their sins and are indwelt by the Holy Spirit are the church that we are the bride of Christ.

So the church is not described as a building in any way.

It's not brick and mortar?

No, it's.

It's.

It's funny that you said that, because my.

My pastor, every time he says that, when he says, we're meeting at the church building.

He makes a clear delineation that there's a building and then there's a church.

It's the church is building.

The.

The body of believers are the ones that are called the church or the.

The called out ones, the ecclesia.

Right, right.

And so it's not a building, it's a body of believers specifically called the body of Christ.

Sure.

Ephesians 4, 12, 16 speaks about equipping the saints.

The saints, another.

Another name for the church.

You know, you don't have to be a dead guy in heaven and the.

Your sainthood is bestowed upon you.

Because I think Paul and Peter, I think they wrote to saints, and I think the saints were alive because they read the letters that were written to them.

Right?

Yes.

So that's who the saints are.

Not just the football team, but also the people of God.

And so hence the body of Christ, like you said, those he died for, regenerated, saved, and adopted as his children.

And the Greek word ecclesia is.

Is the called out ones.

And I like what First Peter 2.

9 calls us, says a chosen race, a royal priest at a holy nation, a people for his own position, that you may proclaim the excellencies who.

Of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

So I don't see anything about water there.

No, just about a calling.

Right.

And, you know, one of the things that really confused me when I first came to know the Lord and started reading the Scriptures, because most of Paul's letters are to the saints in Ephesus, to the.

To the saints at Rome.

And I started.

I'm like, what.

How are these people saints?

What is a saint?

So I actually had to look it up and found out that it's, you know, people who are set apart from the world, who are.

Who are born again, who are indwelt by God's spirit, who have new hearts and new lives, who are pursuing God.

So it really, it was a paradigm shift for me because, you know, how could they possibly have done the beatification process with all these guys when this is the first letters to the church?

So it was really something that.

It opened my eyes because it was a clear era as far as I saw as how Roman Catholics deemed somebody a saint versus how the Apostle Paul and Peter deemed somebody a saint.

Right, right.

And so does the church have the authority to permit people into membership.

The.

The Roman Catholic Church?

No, the.

The true church.

Oh, I just, I just, I just want to make sure if I get good I give you the wrong answer, you might boot me out of here.

Clarification.

Yeah, yeah.

The.

The church doesn't allow people in.

Yeah.

It's the Holy Spirit that opens the eyes, the ears, and the heart of the person to see, hear, and believe.

And based on repentance and faith in God, they're brought into the invisible body of Christ worldwide.

They're now numbered among the elect, and they are God's children.

Amen.

So there.

I mean, you have.

You have church membership.

We have church membership, sure.

Where.

And that will be based on what God's Word says and teaches.

And of course, there's people who become members who are not converted, you know, as well.

And so does the church have the authority to exclude people from membership as well in that respect?

Sure.

Again, that would be a matter of church discipline.

If somebody was to.

If someone was to be brought up on a certain charge, let's say it was adultery or stealing or something along those lines, we would have a Matthew 18 situation where someone would go to the person, explain to them, you know, the error of their ways, and call them to repentance.

If that doesn't work, you bring two or three witnesses with you.

If that doesn't work, then you bring the church in, and the church is the one who sits down with the person, goes through the whole situation to see if this person really is in sin, unrepentant sin.

And then we would call them to repentance.

And the goal is always restoration.

It's never.

The goal is never to exclude someone for the wrong reason.

The goal is always to get them to be restored back in their relationship with.

With God and to see the body whole.

So we would.

We would call them to repentance.

We would counsel them.

We.

We would still allow them to come to the, to the church to hear the preaching of the Word.

They need to hear the Gospel.

But they wouldn't be allowed to be part of family business, so to speak.

They wouldn't be allowed to fellowship.

They wouldn't be allowed to do the Bible studies that we do until they repented and, and came clean with what they've done.

Right.

They wouldn't be permitted at the, at the communion table.

No, no.

There's a grave warning in First Corinthians 11 concerning that, because we're not sure if they're a believer.

Right.

Right.

And so I know that the Reformation, the formal cause of the Reformation, was the authority sola scriptura and concerning the authority of, Of Scripture.

The authority is the word of God alone.

And so if we were to sort of have.

I know that Rome focuses on this apostolic authority.

And it seemed for a time in the early Church that there was apostolic authority in, in respect to the Bible had not been written or completed yet.

Like in Acts 2:42, they, they said at the, you know, they sat and they listened to the apostles doctrine, which was basically their unfolding of the Old Testament and the words of Jesus as echoed by the apostles until the New Testament was entirely written and compiled.

And so Rome comes along and says, well, you know, I know that again, a relative of mine says, well, you only have half of the truth.

You only have the word of God.

We have the word of God in tradition.

So what, what does the reform rookie say to that one?

The reform rookie says, okay, what traditions do you have and how do you know that that's the tradition that was handed down by the apostles.

The early church hammered this out real early.

They came up with the canon of Scripture.

And the word canon means rule.

Right?

Right.

So if they came up with the canon of scripture, which is the rule for all Christians, and the Scripture itself testifies to the fact that it is God breathed and useful for teaching, correction and reproof and training in righteousness, that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

We have God's word, which is inspired and infallible, versus the teaching of man, which is not inspired and is fallible.

So the only thing, I think there's a big misnomer with regards to sola scriptura.

We still believe that there is an authority in the church.

Right.

We believe in elders and pastors.

We believe in teachers.

Teachers use and expound on the word of God and teach it to the congregation.

We have elders who.

I'm going through the book of Titus right now.

Paul told Titus to establish elders, establish order.

There's an order and eldership that is committed to the scriptures.

The elder needs to be able to teach the scriptures.

But we recognize that the Scripture is the only infallible rule of faith.

So when we have a matter that we're disputing about, we go back to the scriptures.

We don't go back to tradition.

We don't go back to what so and so said and what this person said.

But because they could obviously be wrong, the only thing that can't be wrong is the Scriptures.

And Rome agrees that the Scripture is in infallible authority.

So the question I would have for them is, where do you get this second authority in the teaching magisterium of the church and the Third authority of the tradition.

And how do you can you be wrong in.

In what you teach as a human being?

The only God breathe, God breathe instrument that we have is the Scriptures, so we know that we can stand on those.

Yeah, there's only one mechanism that God inspired, right?

And it's, it's clearly the word of God.

Therefore it's not councils or popes or the agendas of pastors, missionaries, evangelists.

But everything must stem from and be rooted in the word of God.

That's the anchor.

And we have nothing to say, if you will, apart from the word of God.

I can't tell somebody, you know what?

Everybody's got to wear red ties.

I don't have the authority to tell you, you know, what kind of ti.

But if I say, you know what, God commands you to repent.

God commands us to pray.

Well, we have the authority to say no thing because it's in the word of God.

So we can just echo what's written in the word of God.

We're like the mailman.

We didn't write the mail we get, but you know, we get to deliver it.

Right, Right.

And you know the funny thing?

I'll call it the funny thing.

The Hebrews didn't have a problem with this.

They recognized the Word of God.

They recognized that that was the, the authority.

They didn't say, okay, well, we need somebody to, to tell us that these are the books of the Old Testament.

And the person who tells us that they're going to be in charge of everything and they're going to be able to tell us what to do.

And their authority would be on par with the scriptures.

That never happened.

The Hebrews understood and knew which books were divinely inspired, and that was the rule of faith.

Man cannot live by bread alone, but by every word out of the mouth of God.

Right?

The word of the Lord is settled in the heavens forever.

You know, the, the flower fades, but the Word of God is, is settled forever.

So pastors have the authority under scripture, under Christ in that respect.

And we, we're going to be held on account of being under shepherds of Christ's body.

James tells us that teachers under stricter judgment.

And so we have to be very careful as far as how we cared about for God's children, even though we are one.

One of God's children ourselves, Right?

So if I let you babysit my kids and I come home and they're all beat up and your knuckles are all bloody, right?

You have, you have their tooth stuck in your knuckles.

I Mean, it's gonna be a problem, right?

It should be.

Right.

We have to take.

Good.

Exactly.

You know, anything's gonna get his baseball bat out from the, from the garage and then there's gonna be a couple teeth in there.

Yeah.

One of the, one of the questions that, that I, I try to ask Roman Catholics if we're have, if we're able to have a dialogue is can you show me in the New Testament what the requirements of a priest are?

Where do you find the requirements of a priest in the New Covenant?

Because obviously they don't.

There are no requirements for a priest in the New Covenant.

In fact, the body of Christ is called where the priesthood of believers.

Right.

We're all priests in the New Covenant.

As believers, what we do have is the requirements for an elder bishop or overseer, which are all three synonymous terms.

It's someone who's to lead the congregation.

And there's requirements in The Pastoral Epistles, 1st and 2nd Timothy and Titus that tell us exactly what an elder needs to be.

But there are no specific requirements in the New Testament for what a priest is.

Now if you go back to the, to the Old Covenant and you want to follow what the, what the requirements for a priest are, are you going to fit those requirements?

Don't you need, don't you need to be Jewish?

You know, so if there are no requirements in the New Testament for what, for how to become a priest, why would we have priests in the New Covenant Church?

Right, right.

Yeah.

And so that's a fantastic question, because when you think about it, I heard recently someone was debating with James White, which is always a dangerous thing, just saying.

And so James White asks, well, how come none of your.

If you say that, that, you know, that requirements are somehow in First Timothy three and that require.

That's branded as a priest because you also call them pastors, how come none of your guys are married?

I mean, none of them.

Right.

So if, if you, if, if they use, even if they use those terms, pastor priests synonymously, which they can't.

How come?

Because they said, well, you know, Peter's, you know, Jesus healed Peter's mother in law, but, you know, it doesn't mention his wife, so she probably died at that point.

Total speculation.

It still begs the question why the requirements of being married?

Not, not that a pastor has to be married, but none of your guys are married.

Mm.

None of them.

Yeah.

You know, that's odd.

And in fact, we see reference to that in Paul's letter to Timothy.

He says, now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times, some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving.

So, boom, they're forbidden to be married, which is what.

What Paul is warning Timothy about like this.

That's a, That's a spirit.

That's a spirit teaching demons.

So this is not something that you, you, you want to promote that people can't get married.

In fact, especially since the Great Commission includes being fruitful and multiplying.

Right.

The.

The.

The mandate from the beginning was to be fruitful, multiplying.

Take the kingdom worldwide, expand the garden from this little spot, bring it to the entire world.

That happens through people having children.

And people having children are a blessing in the, in the scriptures.

You know, you want your quiver to be full, so to speak.

You want to have children.

You want to be fruitful and multiply.

And you know who actually gets that?

Muslims.

They actually get that.

They recognize.

They recognize that the way to populate the world and take over would be to have eight kids.

So they're, they're multiplying at a rate four times more than we are.

We have less than two kids.

We're not even keeping up with.

Yes.

With, with promoting ourselves.

So thankfully, you know, in our church, we have a very fertile congregation.

We always have at least two or three women on the prayer list for, for their pregnancies.

So it's, it's definitely something to, to promote.

We want more children in the world.

Children are a blessing, and that's how we grow the kingdom of God.

Amen.

Amen.

Be fruitful and multiply.

And so there is certainly a great difference between invention and revelation.

So invention of authority is really a distortion of authority.

They.

They don't have the word of God, which they're just standing upon solely.

So even though there's some things.

Right, right.

We mentioned the Trinity, the resurrection in Rome.

There are some things that are correct.

But you know what I mean.

When I had an analog clock, you know, that broken clock was right twice a day too.

Yep.

So now as far as who is the church, who's the head of the church?

The head of the church, from what I understand and know, is Jesus Christ.

Right.

In fact, it's Ephesians 4, 15, and 16, rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ.

And then also in chapter five, for the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the Church.

Now the Church submits to Christ.

So also wives should submit and everything to their husbands.

So that's marriage is actually a picture of the church of the bride submitting to the husband as the head.

Because we're going to be held responsible for how we raise up and, and protect and teach our own families.

The same way Jesus is responsible for the way he raises us up and, and grows us as Christians.

Right.

Thankfully that's going to be perfect.

But Jesus Christ is the head of the Church.

There is no other.

There is no other head.

No.

So how can, how can Rome come along and say, well, the Pope is the head of the Church.

Anything with two heads, I think in movies we locked it up where we killed it.

Yes, yes.

Well, yeah, look again, this, this goes along with their, their, their, their claims to authority.

You know, they have the Scripture, which we agree on.

We both agree that the Scripture is the authority, but they also believe that they have the teaching magisterium and sacred tradition.

So they have this three legged stool.

So how could you have three authorities?

Okay, how could you have three authorities when this Jesus is the head of the Church?

Because the Scripture says that and the Scriptures are the only God breathed revelation.

If people cannot understand what the Scriptures say and only the teaching magisterium of the Church can explain to the, to the person what the Scriptures say, well, that puts the Church above the Scriptures, Right?

Because the church can only you.

You can't interpret the Scripture yourself.

You need the teaching magisterium to do that for you.

That's a problem because the, the Scripture in and of itself says it's sufficient.

Right.

Jesus says, thy word is truth.

Again, old covenant.

They did not need an authority over the Scriptures to interpret it for them.

They continually read the Scriptures on, on Saturday, on the Sabbath and, and went through those things.

Moses was preaching to them.

They had the books in the wilderness as, as they went through, they, they had the Scripture.

So we now are given the Scriptures and we're told in First Corinthians 10 that those things were written down as an example for us.

There was no Pope, there was no one person who is the head over all who spoke infallibly.

What they had was the Scriptures and it was taught to them, usually orally, but also through, through the teaching and preaching of the Word.

And what you said about the Magisterium, this group that's considered to be, to have the authority or the office to interpret Scripture, the great problem with that is when Paul wrote to the Corinthians, he just sent them a letter who is a magisterium, was interpreting that.

If Paul wasn't there to interpret it for him, he just wrote them the letter.

And it was like, wow, they could read it.

Right?

Right.

And so all the, all the letters that were written to the churches, how did they understand them if they needed this special group, which was not in existence, to just read the letter?

Exactly.

I mean, it's, it, it's so simple and they've made it so not only complicated, but I mean, it's.

It's just not even there.

Right.

Not only that, Paul.

Paul tells Timothy, right, do your best to be a workman who need not be ashamed rightly handling the word of truth.

He doesn't tell Timothy, hey, listen, read the Scriptures.

And here's the Pope's cell number.

Anything you need to know, just call.

Just call the Bishop, the Cardinal, or the Pope.

They'll tell you what it means.

He says, no, you got to wrestle with that yourself.

You have to wrestle through the Scriptures.

You got to be a Berean.

Right?

The Bereans were more noble than the Thessalon Thessalonians.

They went and examined the Scriptures to see if what Paul said was true.

So we always have to go back to the Scriptures.

They were never told to go to an authority to get the understanding or the meaning of the Scriptures.

Now, I also don't want to.

I don't want to discount Church councils.

Right.

There were times in the Church when they had to hammer out certain matters and they came to an understanding of those things, but it was not because there was a teaching magisterium of the Church that laid those things out.

In fact, if there was a teaching magisterium of the Church, we wouldn't have had need for the councils.

Correct?

Correct.

There you go.

You know.

So I want to hear your response to this.

Peter do Moline, not Peter the Apostle said this.

If the Pope is the head of the Church, we must say that the Church is the body of the Pope.

But Scripture calls the Church the body of Christ, not the body of the Pope.

Amen.

Yeah, no, listen.

Our.

Our allegiance is to Jesus Christ as Lord.

There is one Mediator between God and man, the man, Christ Jesus.

I'm not going to go to the Pope to get to Jesus.

I'm not going to go to the Pope for his understanding of the Scriptures.

I'm going to go to an elder, to an overseer, a bishop, who has been set apart, who's had hands laid on him, who's ordained, who's gone through the Scriptures.

And even when we go to the elder.

We recognize that he's a human being who can be wrong, right?

So we always want to take what the elder says.

I always tell, tell people in our congregation, listen, listen to what I say, but then go back and check the Scriptures.

I'm a human being who's not perfect.

Look, I don't know anybody on the, on planet Earth that has perfect theology.

Right?

I know that somewhere along the lines something I believe is probably not quite right, but I don't know what that is.

And until God reveals it to me through the Scriptures, this is where we're at.

We're, we have sin stained minds and we're growing in the grace and knowledge of our Savior.

We do our best, we go to the Scriptures, we exposit it, we study it, but still we're men.

So is the Pope.

The Pope is no different.

He doesn't have any special skills that you or I or any other human and any other human being born of God's spirit has.

Right?

The things of the spirit are spiritually discerned.

The man in the flesh cannot know them.

There have been, there have been unbelieving Popes.

Right.

And Robert Sungenis even admitted that in a debate with James White.

James White asked him, can, can the Pope be an unbeliever or heretic?

He said, yes.

So you have unbelievers who don't have the spirit of God in them offering you their understanding of the Scripture.

The Spirit, this, the, the Spirit, the, the Scriptures are spiritually discerned.

The man in the flesh cannot know them.

2nd Corinthians 2:14.

They cannot know them.

Stat people.

I mean, that's, that's worse than Ketanji Brown saying, I don't know what a woman is.

I'm not a biologist.

And now she's going to interpret the Constitution.

Right.

I really, you know, in hindsight, when you look at that moment, I really wish one of the guys would have said, say, okay, so if there was ever a woman's rights issue, you would recuse yourself, right?

Because you don't know what that is.

Right?

Yeah.

You certainly couldn't weigh in on a woman's rights issue.

A woman's rights issue, if you don't know what a woman is.

So should a case like that come to the court, you would step aside and recuse yourself from that.

Right?

But I don't think anybody, I don't think anybody in that room expected her to say, I don't.

What am I, a biologist?

Like, right.

Wow.

Wow.

Really?

Really.

And so you Know, it's funny because, you know, we had one pope resign, right?

He stepped aside and then Francis stepped in.

I didn't know that.

You know, that what they consider the head of the Church can just resign.

Then, then.

And then one died.

So then both times in one says they had no head and that.

And then I forgot what century it was when there was three popes at the same time.

Yep, yep.

I think that was during the Great Schism, if I'm not mistaken.

And so, I mean, when Christ died, who is the head of the Church, he was dead in body, Right?

Yeah, well, right, right.

He.

I mean, he wasn't dead in spirit, if you will.

No, no, no.

So that, you know, the head of the Church wasn't dead in, you know, in that respect.

Now, some of the things Rome teaches.

So the Bible and the early Church fathers, either implicitly or explicit, explicitly describe Peter's primacy.

And the Church has consistently appealed to these traditions in defense of papal authorities.

What Rome teaches, although our Orthodox and Protestant brothers and sisters, which is funny that they say we're brothers and sisters now because we were anathematized at the Council of Trent.

Peter's primacy of authority, the Catholic Church defends his primacy with good reason.

Our catechism makes it clear.

Now we're going to start to get into this aspect with Peter being the.

The rock.

And so Vatican 1 and 2, Christ gave Peter the primacy of jurisdiction over the entire Church as an infallible teaching.

Where's that teaching?

Yes.

Not in the Scriptures.

I think it's probably in the Roman Catholic Catechism.

It does not appear in the Scriptures.

All right, what about this one?

The Roman pontiff has absolute authority in himself, possesses all authority over all councils.

Judgments cannot be questioned.

He himself can be judged by no human tribunal.

Yeah, I remember Jesus saying, all authority and power has been given to me.

Now, therefore, go into all the nations making disciples.

All power and authority belongs to Jesus.

He's seated at the right hand of God the Father and is ruling and reigning right now until his enemies are made a footstool for his feet.

I mean, you can't get any clearer than that.

And you can't be that.

That's not anything that you can mistake for something else.

Right.

If he says he has all power and authority and the Scripture says he's ruling and reigning right now, what else do you need it to say?

Well, in Acts 17, you brought it up before those in the Bereans in Thessalonica, they examine the words of Paul to make sure that he was the real deal, that he was preaching the true word of God and they were considered noble for doing so.

Right?

Now, if you're a Roman Catholic and you're listening to this, you would say, wait, but that's not Peter.

But wait, there's more.

The Apostle Paul turned around and rebuked Peter, right, In Galatians chapter two.

So if you cannot question the Pope at all and you consider him to be the Pope, how in the world could Paul rebuke the Pope?

Right?

Unless Peter was just an apostle, just like he was.

Not only that, but Peter stood condemned.

Condemned.

Based on the Gospel.

Condemned is a heavy word.

That's not like, you know, you messed up.

Really, you, you stand condemned because he wasn't acting in line with the Gospel.

Because the Gospel is Jews and Gentiles together.

God created one new man out of the two and brought them together.

So there's a unity in the people of God of whom Jesus spilled his blood for.

So no one can look differently at another believer.

Because Jesus died for you as well.

He died for people out of every tribe, every tongue, every people, every language purchased them out of each of those.

Right.

Which again shows you, you know, Jesus lays his life down for the sheep.

Right.

They also say the right of jurisdiction is passed down to Peter's successors, the bishops of Rome, for all time.

Do we see this anywhere in Scripture?

I haven't seen it yet.

And again, the word bishop is episcopal.

And this is again synonymous with overseer, presbyteroy, and an elder.

So these titles are all titles of the same office.

They're not titled in a hierarchy of things.

There's not like bishop up top, then overseer and then elder.

They're one in the same.

So to fight, to try to find where this is in the Scriptures, you're not going to find the Roman Catholic ecclesiology that, that they, that they're putting forth.

Right?

Because when you read First Timothy 3 and Titus, Cardinals, nuns, archbishops, you don't see any of these things.

So where's all this stuff coming from?

Right, Absolutely.

They don't have any greater authority.

They don't have the, the authority that Rome claims that priests have.

Priests, according to them, have the power to call Jesus down out of heaven and enter into the host so that they can re.

Sacrifice his body on the altar.

Again, as Protestants, we look at this and we're, we're, we're horrified that re sacrificed Jesus on the altar again and again and again when scripture clearly says in several places, he sacrificed his body once for all.

Right.

There's no more need for sacrifice because Jesus accomplished that.

Not only that, but when you look at the Old Testament sacrificial system and the high priest who would go behind the Holy of Holies once a year and sprinkle the blood on the mercy seat, there was no chair for him to sit down in the Holy of Holies because the work was ongoing.

They had to make that sacrifice every year, year after year after year.

It was a reminder that their sins would not be paid for until again next year.

That's not the case with Jesus.

Jesus, after he makes atonement for sins, sits down at the right hand of the Father, showing that his work is finished, complete.

He says it from the cross.

It is finished to tell us that, paid in full, there is no more payment, no more ongoing sacrifice for sins available.

You have the once and for all sacrifice of the perfect, sinless, spotless Son of God imputed to your account when you place your faith and trust in him.

Yeah, I mean, there's just simply no successors for Peter.

What we do see is we're supposed to go into all the world and make disciples.

As far as apostolic succession, I mean, it's not there.

No.

3 Popes.

During the Western Schism, 1378-1417, the Roman Catholic Church experienced a period where three men simultaneously claimed to be the.

The legitimate Pope, and they all excommunicated each other.

So which one was right?

Exactly.

Have fun with that one.

Right.

So they also said the Roman Catholic Church is free forever from all blemishes of errors and doctrines of the Catholic faith have always been kept undefiled by her.

You can really go the gamut with that one.

What about all the.

The sexual sin for the priests?

Yeah, not only that, about free from all blemishes.

Yeah, that's a small little blemish.

Right.

What about.

What about.

What about the last Pope that affirmed lgbtq?

He affirmed that.

What about he stood in front of a group of Hindus and said that all roads lead to heaven, even the Hindus.

It's just different languages, but we're all saying the same thing.

He basically affirmed the fact that a Hindu could be saved, if you will, by virtue of this sincerity in their own religion.

So, again, this has no bearing or reflection of what the apostles in the Book of Acts taught.

There's salvation in no one else.

It's only by the name of Jesus that anybody can be saved.

In fact, I have a video up of.

I think it's Bishop Barron talking to Ben Shapiro.

Who's interviewing him.

And Ben Shapiro says, you know, it's not really a question I care about.

He doesn't even care about if Jesus is real.

Right?

But, you know, as a Jew who keeps the sick, who does his best to keep the 613 laws, he says, basically, am I screwed?

And Cardinal Barron said, Bishop Barrett says, no, not at all.

You have the light of conscience, which is the logos that informs your conscience.

And as long as you follow your conscience, you know, Jesus is, get this, he says, jesus is the privileged route, but not the only route, Right?

So, I mean, this is clearly contra what Jesus himself says, I am the way, the truth and life.

No one gets to the Father but through me.

Right?

Jesus didn't come to bring you a religion.

He came to bring you a Father.

Everyone will get to God.

You will either stand before him as judge or you will stand before him as his child.

Right?

And every sin in this world will be paid for.

It will either be paid for by you or paid for by Jesus.

So if you're a Roman Catholic and you're listening to this right now, the Gospel is simple.

Call upon the name of the Lord and be saved.

Repent of your sins.

Place your faith and trust in him alone.

Not a little bit of faith in you and a lot of faith in Jesus.

Don't trust in your own love for God.

I want to trust in God's love for me.

Why?

Because First Corinthians 13 says, Love never fails.

God's love never fails.

Mine fails regularly.

So if my salvation is based on my love, I got a big problem.

But if it's based on God's love, I'm secure.

I'm safe in Christ because God's love doesn't fail.

So repent, place your faith and trust in Jesus.

He is the Savior.

Put an out of business sign around your neck.

You're no longer the Savior.

Not a co Savior.

You're not any part of that.

In fact, the only thing you did was bring the sin into the world, made it necessary for him to die and save you.

So it's trust in Jesus Christ alone.

For your salvation, you can go to.

The great high priest and the only priest, which is Christ.

Amen.

Right.

He was not only the one who gave the sacrifice, but he was the one who was the sacrifice at the same time.

Amen.

So it has at all times in the history of the Church been necessary that every church throughout the world should agree with the Roman Church.

We just don't find that anywhere in the Scriptures.

Well, yeah, not Only that.

But we find the Roman Church not believing in the Roman Church.

I mean, there's been contradictions and fights.

And you have three popes who are at each other's throats.

You have Pope Honorius, who was a monothelite, which is a heresy.

You have all these different things and infighting within the Church that shows they don't even trust themselves.

Right?

Yes.

So did you.

Did you want to get into Matthew 16 about the rock?

Yes.

Okay.

Yes.

All right.

So I just want to show this one more.

Yeah, Good.

It is necessary for salvation to everyone who professes to be a Christian.

They must be submitted to the authority, the Roman Pontiff in all matters, faith, morals and discipline.

And if anyone disagrees with the teachings of the Vatican, they are anathematized.

Yeah.

What does that mean?

Says nowhere in the Scriptures.

That means that if you don't bend the knee to the Pope and ask and agree that he is the authority over the Church and that you're going to comply with everything that the Roman Catholic Church teaches, you're anathema.

Anathema means cursed.

Right.

We find that word in the Book of Galatians.

If anyone preaches a different gospel, let him be anathema.

Anathema.

All right.

Cursed.

So what Rome is basically saying is if you don't submit to their authority, you're anathema.

So Protestants have been cut off.

According to Roman Catholics, we are separated, brethren.

Right.

But we are anathema.

Now, one of the things in the Council of Trent that they said is, if you do not believe that Mary was bodily assumed into heaven, you're anathema.

So not only do they say that we're anathema and we're not a part of their fellowship, but they've added to the Gospel.

So now it's not just faith and trust in Jesus Christ alone for your salvation, it's faith and trust in Jesus Christ plus your good works, plus believing that Mary was bodily assumed into heaven, plus that the Pope is the head of the Church.

So they continue adding to the simple gospel.

If all you had was the Book of John.

Right.

John writes his Gospel, and at the end, he says, these things are written so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Now, that's John the Apostle who wrote that.

He says based on everything that he wrote in those 21 chapters, you have enough information to trust in Jesus Christ as Lord and be saved and know that you're saved.

Because again, Rome says you can't know you're saved.

Right?

Right.

They put justification not at the beginning of the equation, they put justification at the end of the equation.

So you don't know if you're in Right.

Standing with God until you stand before him and give an account of your life.

That's got to be frightening.

That's got to be frightening.

Yeah.

And then they tell us, the Council of Trent, we're anathematized.

Vatican 2.

You're separated brethren.

There's a.

Which one are we then, according to them?

Right.

Separated, brethren, or are we anathematized?

Right.

Yeah.

So Rome.

Rome disagrees with Rome.

Rome disagrees with Rome.

And just as another nugget, they view Islam as well as worshiping the God of Abraham.

So they're good to go.

They're.

They're brought in, but yet we're anathematized that actually worship Christ.

Yeah, Rome disagrees with Rome.

They're all over the map.

It's funny, you know, it's.

It's like you tell one lie over here, then you got to tell another lie over here and.

And 10 lies down the road.

You forgot what the first lie was.

Yeah, it's.

It's funny that Muslims and I pulled up the Catholic catechism.

It's question 841.

It says the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator in the first place.

Among whom are the Muslims.

These profess to hold to the faith of Abraham and together with us, adore the one merciful God, Man's kind, mankind's judge on the last day.

Now, Muslims would disagree with that.

They.

They do not believe that they worship the same God as us.

So Muslims are getting to heaven according to Roman Catholic catechism, based on the sincerity and their.

Their allegiance to their own faith.

Even according to Bishop Barron, atheists can get into heaven.

Ben Shapiro.

And Jews can get into heaven.

The only people who can't get into heaven are people whose faith and trust is in Jesus Christ alone for their salvation.

Isn't that amazing?

Right?

You can't make it up.

You.

You really can't make that up.

That's how deceptive.

That's how deceptive this system can be.

Very Pharisaical.

Very.

Yeah, they are the Pharisees, all right.

Anthony, was Peter the Pope?

I don't find that word Pope in the scriptures, so.

No, no, I do remember Jesus telling if he was the Pope, telling them, get behind me, Satan.

Maybe that's, you know, that's the closest we have to Peter being the Pope.

Get behind me, Satan.

Well, I mean, did Jesus give Peter the keys to his church and Appoint him shepherd of the whole flock.

And then where did this process of choosing a new Pope?

135 can vote, 108 are appointed by Pope Francis, but if you're 80 years old or older, you can't vote.

Where does all this stuff come from?

Oh, you didn't get that memo?

No, no.

That was, that was, that's first hesitations.

There you go.

There you go.

Yeah, that's the first hesitation.

I mean, I think to bring Peter to be the Pope, they have to use what's called a proof text.

Right?

What's a proof text?

A proof text is a text that they would use to support their supposed understanding of the papacy.

Again, we don't see anything like that in the scriptures.

We don't even see priests in the scriptures.

What we do see through church history is men who were considered first among equals.

In other words, like, we look out at the landscape over the past 20 years and we see men like R.C.

sproul, John MacArthur, Vodie Bauckham, men who are dedicated to the preaching and teaching of the gospel.

And they rise to the top because their teaching is so influential and so powerful that you recognize God has a special calling on their lives.

But you and I didn't vote for that.

Right?

God was the one who raised these guys up.

And their talents and giftings that were given to them by God just become evident to everyone.

You know, it's the difference, it's the difference between a thermostat and a thermometer.

Right?

Thermometer.

The thermometer tells you what the temperature is.

So when we look out and we see a Sproul, a John MacArthur, we like, we're like, okay, we see, we recognize that God has a calling on their lives versus a thermostat that says, okay, I'm going to dial this in and I'm going to make it 68 degrees in the room.

We're going to pick this particular guy and he's going to represent us.

He's going to be the Pope.

So the difference is one is accomplished by God, the other one is accomplished by humanity.

And anything, any human work is going to be stained by sin.

Because humans are depraved in their hearts.

They have sin stained minds.

So we have to again, always go back to the scriptures and, and try to support whatever it is we believe, whatever we hold to believe and see as the, as our ecclesiology has to come from the God breathed scriptures, it.

Seems to follow a little bit more like toward Roman culture than anything where, you know, they have Successors that were normally in the same sort of family line.

Just like, you know, there's prayers to the saints, and they were prayers to many gods.

And so it seemed that there was influence there as far as praying to these Roman gods, and now they're praying to all these saints that, you know.

And so there are a lot of Roman influence.

And some of Roman influence was good.

Like, you know, the.

The.

All the streets went out from Rome, and the gospel was carried on the street.

So there were some good things, sure, but there were also some.

Some, you know, the cultural things in that respect.

Well, they were not good things when you try to infuse them into Christianity.

Now, here's the verse, Matthew 16, he says in verse 18 and 19, and I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church.

And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I will give you the keys of the kingdom.

And whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven.

And whatever you loosen her shall be loose.

I'm sorry.

And, yeah, whatever you loose center.

Should we lose.

I think I lost that verse there.

So.

Okay, there it is.

And whatever you loose on earth shall be loose in heaven.

All right, I was saying it right.

I didn't want to screw it up there.

So was he made pope right here?

I mean, Rome says, here's where it happens.

Right, Right now.

Now everything is banked on this.

And I was in St. Peter's Square this summer in August, Have a friend, a co worker, who taught us around Rome, very knowledgeable about all the architecture.

So she gave me all the architecture.

I gave her all the theology.

She was very open to it.

And I said, you know, this whole thing is based on misrepresenting this verse.

And I read this verse to her, and she was like, wow.

Yeah, it's a lot, right?

And so what is this rock?

Is it Peter?

Is it his confession?

Is it Christ?

I mean, is it something that.

That, you know, Peter stepped on the floor?

I mean, what is it?

I think the best way to tell you who this rock is is if I just read you a couple of scriptures.

You okay with that?

I love.

I love hearing the Scriptures.

So we're gonna.

We're gonna go back to the beginning.

We're gonna go to Genesis 49, and verse 24, it says, yet his bow remained unmoved.

His arms were made agile by the hands of the mighty one, of Jacob.

From there is the shepherd, the stone of Israel.

Deuteronomy 32.

4.

The rock.

His work is perfect for all his ways are justice.

A God of faithfulness without iniquity, Just and upright is he.

Isaiah 26:4 Trust in the Lord forever, for the Lord God is an everlasting rock.

Daniel Chapter two.

As you looked, a stone was cut out of out by no human hand.

And it struck the image on its feet of iron and clay and broke them in pieces.

And then the iron, clay, bronze and silver, and the gold together were broken in pieces, became the chaff.

And it was.

It was hit by the rock.

Isaiah 28:16.

There's a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation.

Whoever believes will not be in haste.

We have Psalm 18:2.

The Lord is my rock and my fortress, my deliverer, my God, my rock in whom I take refuge.

Psalm 95:1.

Come, let us sing to the Lord.

Let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation.

Habakkuk Chapter one, Verse two.

How long will you cry for help?

How long shall you not believe?

Oh, I got that wrong.

That's not, that's not one of them.

Sorry.

Matthew 21:42.

The stone that the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone.

First Corinthians 10:4.

And they all drank.

This is talking about the Israelites in the wilderness.

And they all drank the same spiritual drink, for they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them.

And the rock was Christ.

Okay?

On.

In Acts 4:11.

This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone.

Ephesians 2:19.

Built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets.

Christ Jesus himself being the chief cornerstone.

And this is the one that does it for me.

Deuteronomy 32, 4.

The rock.

His work is perfect.

Okay?

So all throughout the Scriptures, Old Testament and New Testament says that God is the rock.

The New Testament says, we know Jesus is God.

Jesus is the rock.

How someone can try to steal that title and apply it to a human being is beyond incredulous.

I mean, that title is reserved for Jesus and Jesus alone, or Jesus alone.

The Pope's work is not perfect.

Right?

He's not the chief cornerstone upon which we're building our life.

Right?

That, that.

That rock is Jesus Christ.

He was with them in the wilderness.

It's.

It's.

Now, what's interesting is some of the, some of the problems with the Roman Catholic position.

When you look at the Greek of The, of Matthew 16:18, we see something not obvious in the English.

If you look at Peter, Petra, Petros, upon this rock, I'll build my church.

Greek nouns have a gender similar to actors and actresses and so the first use is masculine and the second is not masculine, it's feminine.

So the Greek word petros is masculine and Petra is feminine.

So Peter the man is appropriately referred to as Petros Rock, pebble.

But Jesus said the rock he would build his church on was not masculine.

Amen.

But feminine.

Petra.

So if you illustrate this by the words actor and actress, you're the actor.

And with this actress, I will make my movie.

So do you see?

The gender influences how a sentence is even understood.

So he wasn't saying that the church is built upon Peter, but upon something else.

Yes.

Now I fully agree 100%.

All throughout the Scriptures, the.

That the Lord is the rock.

But some people hold that right here, that what, that, what the rock is, is the confession that Peter made upon Christ.

But it was not Peter himself, and it was.

It was the rock in all the verses that you read that gave him this confession.

It was downloaded from heaven and he didn't do the downloading.

It was given from him.

You mentioned the phraseology from above.

Yes.

Just like the new birth is given you from above.

You had nothing to do with your physical birth.

You had nothing to do with your spiritual birth.

Amen.

Amen.

Peter had nothing to do per se, with the confession that he made.

It was given to him and boom, it came out of his lips.

Right.

And they all agreed, right?

They all agreed with him.

Yeah.

And.

And Jesus actually says, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven.

Right.

So the gospel and the revelation of Jesus Christ is not about information, it's about revelation.

That's why we're spiritually blind, spiritually deaf, with hardened hearts, hearts of stone.

And God has to be the mover to open our eyes, to open our ears, to change our hearts.

It's what we call monergism.

It's the one working of God who raises us to new life such that our confession is proof that we've been regenerated.

So I like to tell people, look, when a baby's born, the doctor smacks it on the rear end and it takes its birth breath.

Right?

Does the baby take its first breath in order to become alive, or does the baby take that first breath because it's alive?

He's taking that first breath because it's alive.

Right.

Good.

One choice, B.

You got it.

In the same way we confess Jesus is Lord because we're spiritually alive and we can see, hear and recognize Him.

And that would not happen if we were in our flesh.

In fact, in our flesh, no One can please God.

Amen.

And later on in, in Matthew 16, shortly after, Peter doesn't agree that Jesus needs to go to the cross.

And Jesus says, get thee behind me, Satan.

Wait, so he just made him the Pope, according to Rome, but now he's saying, get the behind me, Satan.

Right.

Certainly not an infallible man, is it?

No, I, I, it doesn't sound that way.

But isn't it funny?

Don't you, don't you think that God set it up that way?

Because obviously there's attention being drawn to Peter, like he's blessed after he says those things.

And, you know, two weeks later he's, he's saying, you know, God's.

Jesus is saying to him, get behind me, Satan.

So it just goes to show you that this is, this is all about God's grace and mercy and not to get too, too high on yourself.

Do not think more highly of yourself than you ought to.

You know, this is a recipe for failure.

We're seeing lots of that these days in, in the church in America.

Well, amen.

And then Matthew 18 would not make any sense if, if Peter was made the Pope.

In chapter 16, when they're arguing about who's the greatest in the kingdom, if Peter was the rock, wouldn't he have cleared his throne, saying, fellas, what are we even arguing about?

Come on, you know the deal.

You're talking to the Pope right here, right?

Who's the greatest in the kingdom?

It is I.

Right?

Right?

Or Jesus would have spoken up and said, guys, come on, don't you remember Pope Peter?

You remember?

He's the rock.

He's the rock.

Don't you.

You guys forgot this already, you know?

Yeah, but he doesn't do that.

But Jesus did, does act.

He takes a child.

Amen.

He takes a child and has all of them gaze upon this child and he says, truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Amen.

Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven, you know?

And like children, they have no achievements and no accomplishments to offer or commend themselves with at all.

It's totally upon Christ, right?

And the child is fully dependent on his parent for everything, right?

Which is what we need to remember that we were created by God to be completely dependent on him for everything.

You know, for our breath, for our health, for everything we have, and most importantly, for salvation, Right?

We were created to be in that dependent relationship upon Him.

That's what, Excuse me, that's What God wants us to be, to be dependent on him.

Not self dependent, independent.

That's not what God wants.

He wants us to be dependent on him for everything.

That's what the relationship is all about.

Yeah.

And even interdependent, dependent on him and one another in the body of Christ as we build one another up.

Exactly.

Exactly.

In met in Matthew 20:25-28, he says, you know, that the rulers of the Gentiles lorded over them and their Great One exercised authority over them.

It shall not be among you, but whoever will be great among you must be your servant.

And whoever would be first among you must be your slave.

Even as the Son of Man came not to be served and to give his life as a ransom for many, this just.

Peter doesn't see himself as high and mighty.

No, no.

Right.

You look at the corporations today, and the org chart looks like this.

And everybody's clawing their way to try to be the number one guy in the kingdom.

The old chart looks like this, right?

You're clawing your way to the bottom to be the servant of all.

And nobody wants to do that.

Right.

That's why it takes a work of God to change your heart, to actually have that desire to.

To go low, you know, to humble yourself and seek the best for others over yourself.

Peter wasn't riding around in a bulletproof fiat chariot with religious regalia.

No, I think it was a Mustang.

It was a Mustang.

So, I mean, he denies Peter.

Peter denies him three times.

Y. Paul rebukes him to his face.

He calls himself a bond servant in second Peter 1, a fellow elder.

A fellow elder in first Peter 5, not an elevated pope.

Right.

And so if he's the supreme, was he a fellow elder?

And I. I have this question.

Anthony, help me with this one.

I know when Paul wrote to the Romans, he mentioned certain people by name was Peter who supposedly was the.

The Bishop of Rome.

Right.

Was he mentioned in Romans at all?

It might have been a slip of the pen.

It might.

Paul.

Paul might.

How could he not?

What's wrong.

What's wrong with Paul?

He.

He.

He skipped over the high and mighty.

Yeah, it was.

It was.

How can that oversight.

It was an oversight.

It was an oversight.

It was an oversight.

Okay.

He was probably, some people say, probably mad at him for what he did in Galatia.

Okay.

He was getting back at him.

I mean, you.

You already hammered all the verses where Peter uses the.

Peter himself even uses the rock imagery.

And when in Acts chapter two, who did Peter preach about?

Himself?

No, he.

He Did a whole sermon on Jesus.

Go figure.

Imagine that He.

He points away from himself all the time.

Right, right, right.

And, and even when people bow down before him, he.

He said, stand up, I'm only a man.

Amen.

Exactly.

That's, that's a big deal because so many of these people, you know, are bowing down in front of the Pope and kissing his ring.

That, that Peter never, never would have, would have sought that, that type of attention towards himself.

He knew better.

Absolutely.

And Jesus, he warred against the works righteous system of the Pharisees, which is exactly what we see in Rome.

We see a works righteous system.

So if he was against it with the Pharisees, how would he be for it now?

Right.

Yeah.

It's unfortunate, but Rome denies the sufficiency of the cross.

You know, Rome stands and says, you definitely need the grace of God and the cross is necessary, but they deny its sufficiency.

Whereas we, we look at the cross and say, it is finished.

It is enough.

Jesus did everything needed to do to pay the price for our sins on the cross.

We do not now have to do good works in order to gain our way into heaven.

Right.

And Roman Catholics would say, well, that's a legal fiction.

You believe that once you place your faith and trust in Jesus, you receive Jesus righteousness by imputation, whereas we Roman Catholics, we receive it by infusion.

As we do good works, we gain righteousness.

And I say, okay, let's say you died now.

Do you think you'd go to purgatory?

And they say, yes.

And I said, do you believe in the treasury of Merit?

They say, yes.

Now, just for those of you who don't know, the treasury of merit is a spiritual bank account in which the excess merit of Jesus, Mary and the saints goes into this account and gets applied to you while you're in purgatory to get you out quicker.

So I asked the Roman Catholic, if you end up in Purgatory, how do you get the merit from the treasury of merit?

And they say, well, it's applied to us.

I said, how is it imputed or infused?

It's imputed.

The merit that somebody else earned is given to you.

Which is exactly what we as Protestants hold to with regards to Jesus's perfect life and death on the cross in our place.

So Rome believes in imputation when it comes to the treasury of merit, but not when it comes to the cross.

It's amazing.

It's amazing.

It's such a deception.

I hate to say it that way, but it is.

And again, if you're a Roman Catholic.

Don't think that I dislike you.

My goal is to see you examine the Scriptures, come to the same knowledge that I came to.

I thought I was a Christian.

I thought I was good with God.

But when I was lined up to the Commandments, I recognized, I stole.

I used God's name in vain.

I lusted in my heart.

I had murder and hate in my heart.

I used God's name in vain, which is blasphemy based on the Ten Commandments.

I was sin positive.

Right?

That's a diagnosis of my condition.

I'm a sinner.

The only solution to that problem is not for me to try to do good, to erase the sin that could never happen.

I had to throw myself at the mercy of Jesus and ask him to rescue me.

And when you do repent and trust in Christ, he answers everybody who calls on his name.

So it's as simple as Romans 10, 9.

If you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

For it is with the mount that one professes unto salvation and with the heart believes.

So it's a simple profession.

Not just a simple profession of faith.

It's the possession of faith.

Because back then when you profess Jesus as Lord, that was a death sentence.

Very easy to say Jesus is Lord now without somebody putting a knife to your throat and say, you sure?

You know, back then it was right.

It was a much more serious thing.

It was Caesar is Lord or.

Or.

That's it.

Once you said Jesus is Lord, there goes your head.

Exactly.

They're going to put you up on a stake and burn you.

Now what about did the Church fathers.

Right, which Rome claims is completely in agreement with Rome.

Do the Church Fathers agree with Rome?

No, the.

The term Pope isn't even used for the first two or three hundred years of the Church.

Again, they recognized first among equals.

They recognized bishops in different land, different territories that would get together for the councils and that would be the representative of their area.

And they were seen as having higher authority, if you would, or a gift to be representatives of their churches.

But there was never any one seat in Rome that ruled over all of the other seats.

No one at that point in time believed anything like that.

Nor is it in the Scriptures.

Yeah, the Church Fathers were not on board.

Matter of fact, the Church Fathers actually work against Rome.

But Rome claims the Church Fathers are on their side.

Listen to what origin said 1185 to 253 AD but if you Suppose that upon one Peter only the whole church is built by God.

What would you say about John the Son of Thunder, or each of the apostles?

Shall we otherwise dare say that against Peter in particular the gates of Haiti shall not prevail, but that they shall prevail against the other apostles and the perfect does not.

The saying previously made, the gates of Haiti shall not prevail against it.

For hold in regard to all and in case of each of them, and also saying upon this rock I will build my church are the keys of the kingdom of heaven given by the Lord to Peter only and will no other of the blessed receive them?

I mean this, this, this is a big problem.

Yeah, yeah, right.

Because we see in Matthew 18, right, so when, when it talks about the keys of the kingdom and binding loosing.

All right, why in Matthew 18 are the keys given to, to all the apostles and given to the church to carry out Jewish discipline if they were only given to Peter?

Right.

What do they do?

What do they do with this thing in Matthew 18?

That's a good question.

Again, you know, they're not following the scriptures and this, this just points us to the heart of mankind.

Mankind always seeks power, right?

So if, if they could come into power now, they can control people underneath them.

And that's unfortunately what Rome turned into.

They had something called simony, where they would buy offices in the church because the, the people who held those offices had incredible political power.

They were able to do, you know, things that would benefit their families or earn them money.

If you haven't seen the, the series, I think it's on prime called the Borgias, which is about a lineage of popes, a family.

Oh my goodness.

You see the corruption that was in the Roman Catholic Church early on and it just gets worse as time goes on.

So any human being that's seeking that power and seeking the, the title that belongs to Jesus as the rock, you know, there's an issue with that.

No human being in and of himself is good.

No human being in and of himself can speak infallibly.

The only way we could speak infallibly is if we read the scriptures out loud.

There you go.

Jerome 3:47-4:20 AD the one foundation which all apostolic architect laid is our Lord Jesus Christ.

The rock is Christ who gave to his apostles that they also shall be called rocks.

There are Peter, and upon this rock I'll build my church.

I mean on and on.

Gregory of Nicaea, Athanasius Ambrosiaster, Paul of Asthma.

I mean, one after the other, none of The Apostolic Fathers really agree with Rome at all.

So how can Rome go and hold and say that the Scriptures and the Church Fathers, hence authority, are both on their side.

Neither are on their side to prove their point.

They're actually against them.

Right.

As far as their theology.

And just to clarify, like what Anthony said before, and I'll just say this on behalf of both of us.

We love Roman Catholic people.

Yes.

I have Roman Catholic family members, extended family members, friends, co workers and the like.

We love people.

Well, I mean, just as much as we love Muslim people and Buddhists.

And we're to love people, we're to reach people for Christ, but we don't love the theology that is dragging them like a cannonball to hell.

True story.

There was a man, he who jumped overboard and he had a money belt filled with, with money.

And he would not, like, take it off.

And it was the death of him.

It pulled him down to, to a watery grave.

And so we just, we want people to be able to take off the, the religious money belt, if you will.

Yeah, it's the root of all kinds of evil.

Absolutely.

Yeah, absolutely.

Get rid of it.

If, again, if you're a Roman Catholic and you're listening to this is, just start reading the Book of John.

Go through the Gospels, please.

See what the Scriptures say about Jesus.

See what the Scriptures say about the assurance of your salvation.

In other words, if John says in, in the Gospel and even in First John, these things are written so that you may know you have eternal life.

And the system that you are in is telling you.

You can't know that you have eternal life.

You have a conflict with the Apostle John.

Right?

The, the bona fide apostle, the, the, the, the Apostle John that even the Roman Catholic Church agrees is the Apostle John.

So if your theology is in conflict with the Apostle John says you have to re.

Look at that.

And I say that with all humility and sincerity.

If you're, if you're, if you're not in line with the Apostle John, I don't care what Pope you're in line with, right?

You need to be in line with the apostle because the apostle wrote the Scriptures.

The apostle who was guided by the Holy Spirit to write the inspired, infallible, inerrant word of God, which is again, the canon, the rule for our faith.

So you got to go back to the rule.

You got to pull out the Scriptures, you got to read through them and see if what, whatever church, not just the Roman Catholic Church, whatever church you're part of, are they teaching what what you see in the scriptures, that's the most important thing.

Now we have a current new pope or recognized as a new pope, seems to be similar to the last one that you mentioned, very social justice oriented.

This in the evangelical times.

If Pope Leo pursues progressive moral issues and moves the Roman Catholic Church away from its traditional ethical teachings, it may have one of two implications for us as evangelicals.

On one hand, it could push us more to the margins and yet another established denomination abandons keys ethical doctrines.

And it can make it easier for authorities to clamp down on us for holding true traditional biblical values outside of the mainstream.

But on the other hand, and I like this, it could present a great opportunity for the truth of the gospel.

If larger denominations abandon their traditional ethical teachings, genuine Christians will shine more brightly in the darkness.

Amen.

Give me your reaction to it, Anthony.

Yeah, look, whether he's a good Pope or a bad Pope, it's always an opportunity for us to share the gospel when we're talking to people.

It's all about Jesus.

If you ever listen to Charlie Kirk, him and Michael Knowles had a quick little interaction and Charlie Kirk brought it right back to Jesus.

You know, he asked Michael Knowles regarding the Pope.

When was the last time the Pope spoke from the chair to give us some important information?

He says, oh, it's been like 200 years.

He says, so then why do we need him?

Like, what do we need to call if we only get like this word every 200 years?

Go back to the scriptures.

You have the God breathes scriptures in your hands.

You don't need a Pope.

You do need a high priest.

His name is Jesus.

Yes, you can come to him.

This is what Jesus told the Pharisees.

He says, you study the scriptures because by them you think you have eternal life.

These are the scriptures that testify of me, yet you refuse to come to me for life.

Now listen, if Rome says you can't get to Jesus but through Mary, then your mediator needs a mediator.

And if you need a mediator for Jesus to get to Jesus, you don't know the real Jesus.

Jesus is the one who sticks his hand out to you and says, come to me all you who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

You don't need to go mediator between heaven and earth.

Yeah, you, you don't need to go through God's organization on earth, then give being given permission to go to Mary to get to Jesus.

Those are all roadblocks to stop you from getting to the one you need to go to first, if you go to Jesus, you, you went to the top.

You went to the God man who's the only one who can grant you eternal life.

He's the one who grants us eternal life.

I know my sheep, my sheep know me.

I give them eternal life and they shall never perish.

Never perish.

Because once.

You mean he gives us eternal life.

Say again?

Not the five.

He gives us eternal life.

Not the five year plan.

No, not the ten year plan.

And then you lose it.

He gives you eternal life and it's life for eternity.

Yes.

And he doesn't take it, he doesn't remove it, you know, it doesn't take it away.

You can't lose it.

No.

Because you're in the grip of his grace.

Yeah.

Listen, he, he, he bought you, right?

You were bought with a price.

He didn't lease and see what's going to be like at the end.

Like lease with the option to buy.

He bought you up front.

And here's the beautiful part.

When he bought you, he knew what he was getting, you know?

Yes.

He, he knew you were going to sin.

He knew you were going to, you were going to blow it many times over.

That's why he purchased you.

If you could do it on your own, God would not have had to sacrifice his only son for you.

So the message is simple.

It is.

So I asked the question at the opening of this.

Is the papacy a divine institution or a human invention?

Anthony, which one is it?

It's a human construction in order to gain power and control people.

I hate to say, say that Jesus is not about controlling people.

Jesus is about offering, offering himself as a sacrifice in love for his people.

Right.

So when you look at the character of Jesus, do you see the popes acting in that same way?

The scripture over and over and over says Jesus is the rock.

Over and over and over says he is the head of the church.

Jesus himself says, come to me directly.

There is one mediator between God and man.

The man Christ Jesus.

Yes.

You can simply go to him.

Once you do, everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.

Right.

This is why we raise the issue.

There's 1.4 billion Roman Catholics.

Almost 18% of the world's population is in Roman Catholicism in its darkness.

Amen.

We are to go into all the world and make disciples.

How many Roman Catholics do you know and do you go out of your way to reach them with the gospel?

When I was in both Israel and Rome, amazing architecture, lots of great stuff to see.

So much idolatry in both places in Israel, they said Jesus spok spit here they built a church.

There's a money box over here.

Jesus, you know, his sandal touched over here they build a church with a money box.

I mean all over the place.

So much idolatry, so many people to reach with the gospel.

And here's the key.

You must know your Bible.

Yes.

If you know the real thing, then you won't be duped by that which is false.

Amen.

It will be clear.

It will be evident to you.

So as far as us reaching out to Roman Catholics, Anthony, I'm going to give you the last word.

Well, listen, if you're a Roman Catholic and you're listening to this now, it's as simple as calling upon the name of the Lord to be saved.

That doesn't mean that you don't have to walk in obedience again.

As Christians, we believe that we're saved by grace through faith and that not of ourselves is the gift of God, not by works so that no man can boast.

We are created in Christ Jesus for good works to walk in them.

So your good works would be the response or the byproduct of a changed heart.

You now recognize Jesus as Lord, as the head of the church, as the Savior of your soul who's done everything necessary to buy, own and bring you home.

You do not need to do good works in order order to get to heaven.

You do good works because you love your Father and want to please him.

So it's as simple as repenting, trusting in Jesus Christ the same way you would trust in a parachute.

If you were on a plane that was going down and somebody offered you a parachute, you'd grab that, you'd cling to it, you'd pull that rip cord when it was time and you would trust that that parachute is going to get you safe, safely land you.

It's the same thing with Jesus.

You put on the Lord Jesus Christ, you cling to him every day, trusting in his perfect work on your behalf.

There's no other name under heaven and earth by which men can be saved but through the name of Jesus alone.

Amen.

Amen.

Again.

As a reminder, we have our contending conference up on YouTube and on Sermon audio.

We hope that this episode episode was a tremendous blessing to you and we thank you for taking this time to stop and think about it.

And thank you Anthony for joining us.

Amen.

Thank you.

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