Had you ever even

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seen a Bible for example?

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No, no.

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Bible was like a magic book.

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Hmm.

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Within one day, oh, we

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are now democratic society.

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One day, just boom.

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Just boom, you know.

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And then every one of us at that time was

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thinking that within two or three years

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we will be like Switzerland.

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Because now we said, okay,

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the problem was just communism.

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Now the communism is not anymore.

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Everything will be great.

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I said, God, if you are there, please do

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something for me because I am losing my

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soul, my life, everything.

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I don't know what I will do.

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When I heard about the cross, the work on

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the cross and why he did

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that, I said two things.

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Such love no one can have

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than God other than God.

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And the one that did this

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must be only God, no one else.

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So, Samir, I've been wanting to do this

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interview for a long time.

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I remember seeing a YouTube comment come

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across on one of our videos or something

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from someone who said

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they were from Albania.

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And I didn't know much about Albania.

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And so I had to look it up on the map.

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Turns out there's that's quite the place

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and you have quite the story.

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And here we are a number of years later

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and we want to get that story today.

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So tell me about yourself.

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Where did you grow up?

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What was childhood like?

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And you're from Albania still to this

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day, which is really neat.

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We're able to meet here in Switzerland

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actually to do this interview.

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So yeah, let's start with that.

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Tell me about yourself.

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Well, Albania for most of the people is

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an unknown country or I should say it was

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unknown before the war

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in Kosovo in late 90s.

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It's a small country.

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That's why probably.

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Or because it has always been between two

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historically between two civilizations,

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West civilization and East civilization.

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It is situated just 70 kilometers by sea

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from Italy and in north of Greece.

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It's a small country with history, I

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think because of its

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position geographically.

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It has been always under the influence of

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the some great empires

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during the centuries.

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So I was born and raised in Tirana in

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capital of Albania at the time where

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Albania's were governed by

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a communist state in 1974.

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And very nice childhood for me.

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And even for we remember people from my

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generation, we remember as a very golden

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time, if I can say it like this, because

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we didn't know what

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was going on with adults.

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But we were safe.

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We were playing on the streets.

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We had so little to play with and our

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happiness could just, you know, could

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start with just only

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one little thing more.

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So that was that's how

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I remember that time.

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Although our parents were in working, you

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know, normal work, eight hours a day.

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How families, neighbors, even, I mean,

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state institutions would care of the

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children of that time.

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So it was very good.

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It was very we remember that as a

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wonderful time until we entered in our

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teen age and that

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started to look differently.

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So I was doing some research after I met

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you for the first time a couple of years

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ago, met you on a different trip and was

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looking into Albania.

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It has been called by some historians the

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North Korea of Europe.

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It was considered the most strict of all

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the communist countries, especially as

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you get older and you start

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realizing what that's like.

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Yeah. What was tell me a bit of what that

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was like living in such a strict

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environment, a communist environment.

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Obviously, religion would have been very

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minimal, I'm assuming.

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And yeah, tell me more of that.

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First of all, you should get up in the

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morning as a teenager at

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three o'clock in the morning.

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Three?

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Yes.

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Oh, my.

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And go to the

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I'm talking about 80s, 1980s.

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You had to go to the shop and to place

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there an empty bottle or stone or

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whatever as a sign of

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your place in the row.

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Because at six thirty in the morning or

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seven, the milk would come and everybody

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was fighting for a bottle of milk.

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So then you start to realize something.

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This was from a personal or everyday

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experience of a teenager.

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But then you got the information that in

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the border there's an electric fence.

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Nobody could go out and nobody could come

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in, literally an electric fence.

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So then they would tell you that and they

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will raise you through education systems

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that you must be true, you must be the

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high standard of character.

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But then when you tell the truth, your

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people in your family will shut you down.

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He'll say, hey, what are you doing?

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Don't tell this anymore to anyone.

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So you realize that there is oppressive,

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big, powerful beast, which is state.

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And then there's hypocrisy

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all over in the population.

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You start to realize that after you come

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out from the childhood.

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So it was like people just mentioning the

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name of God, just

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mentioning that could go in jail.

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Really?

Yes!

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Yeah. People were

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spying each other all the time.

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Brothers would spy each other.

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Marriage couples would not have faith,

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would not share the most

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inner thoughts they had.

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It was a

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depersonalized process by the state.

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Was it almost like you lived in a

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constant state of fear then?

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Don't say the wrong thing.

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As an adult, all the time.

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All the time.

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I had the privilege, I don't know how,

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but it happened that I was in a class at

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the area close to my

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school, in my elementary school.

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My school was at the area where we're

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close, what is called the block area,

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which was the area where these leaders of

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the party lived, including the dictator,

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our dictator, Enver Hoxha.

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So it happened that they brought their

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children in public school.

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That's what they used to do.

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So I had the niece of

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the dictator in my class.

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And she, every spring she had her

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birthday and she invited classmates.

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I was included, although I was a son of

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workers, which was not usual.

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But because I had some, you know, I was

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kind of a leader of boys there.

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So she invited me.

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And so every year for some years I had

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the opportunity to go at

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the house of the dictator.

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No way.

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Yes.

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That's incredible.

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Sorry, what was the dictator's name?

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Enver Hoxha.

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Hoxha.

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That was his name.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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So...

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Wow.

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Yeah.

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So it was 1988, I think.

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And he was already dead, but he was

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succeeded by another one.

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But his family was very, very strong.

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His wife was still, you know.

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So I remember I was...

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I had a cassette at the time.

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That's how we listen music at the time.

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It was called cassette.

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I had a cassette and I

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wanted to bring it to this party.

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And my father was angry.

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And he didn't tell me why.

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He later told me he was afraid that they

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would accuse him if

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something would happen there.

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That, "Oh, this cassette, who

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brought [indistinct] this old?"

217

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He forbidden me to the cassette.

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And I remember going on the road to the

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block area where the

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house of the dictator was.

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It was guarded with soldiers.

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And then I saw before going there, in a

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soccer field, there were two

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young guys listening radio.

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I think they were a little bit drunk

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because they did it openly.

227

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And they were listening Western music.

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And then out of nowhere, some people from

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the buildings around, they were running.

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I saw that they were running towards

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these guys to catch them

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and started to beat them.

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And then I realized that

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before that they called the police.

235

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So two or three police

236

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cars came and took them.

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Like they were really bad criminals.

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And it was a manifestation of the

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strictness of that state.

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And I was entering.

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I saw this scene while I

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was walking toward there.

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And when I entered the house of the

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dictator in the big room, it was like a

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great palace for us.

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I was a little bit late because I was

247

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watching the scene there.

248

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And then when I entered there, it was, I

249

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mean, my friends were

250

00:11:44,078 --> 00:11:46,872

dancing, hard rock music,

251

00:11:47,748 --> 00:11:53,462

heavy metal music, music of that year,

252

00:11:54,338 --> 00:11:58,300

which was recorded and published in West.

253

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So I said, "Hmm, something is wrong here.

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These guys are beaten on the street.

255

00:12:05,266 --> 00:12:06,934

But here in the house of the dictator,

256

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they're doing, you know,

257

00:12:09,854 --> 00:12:11,689

party with hard rock and

258

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heavy metal music."

259

00:12:13,941 --> 00:12:16,277

And I, okay, I thought just that.

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And then I started to

261

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have a party with them.

262

00:12:18,529 --> 00:12:22,074

But I remember that as a teenager saying,

263

00:12:22,074 --> 00:12:23,742

"Oh, something is wrong here."

264

00:12:25,536 --> 00:12:26,787

That is incredibly ironic.

265

00:12:27,329 --> 00:12:27,872

Yes, it is.

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00:12:28,664 --> 00:12:31,959

And that's what's so

267

00:12:31,959 --> 00:12:33,627

confusing to me about Albania.

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When I read the history of that country

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and the environment,

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00:12:36,672 --> 00:12:37,673

you'd have grew up in it.

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It feels so bizarre,

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00:12:39,633 --> 00:12:40,759

like terribly bizarre.

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I think you told me this when we had a

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phone call before this

275

00:12:43,804 --> 00:12:45,556

interview, that Albania is

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the only country ever in their

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00:12:47,224 --> 00:12:49,477

constitution to say, "We will be

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atheist," or "We are

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an atheist country."

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Do you elaborate on that?

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I don't know another

282

00:12:53,814 --> 00:12:55,900

country who officially...

283

00:12:55,900 --> 00:12:57,359

Yeah, I wasn't able to find one.

284

00:12:57,735 --> 00:12:58,652

Yeah, maybe someone can

285

00:12:58,652 --> 00:12:59,195

fact check us on that.

286

00:12:59,195 --> 00:13:00,321

Even North Korea, they're not...

287

00:13:00,613 --> 00:13:01,572

Even North Korea, so...

288

00:13:02,114 --> 00:13:04,408

But tell me what they did with that, just

289

00:13:04,408 --> 00:13:06,035

so people understand the context here.

290

00:13:06,243 --> 00:13:11,999

Well, as soon as the Second World War

291

00:13:11,999 --> 00:13:16,086

ended, the Albanian Communists were

292

00:13:16,086 --> 00:13:17,755

helped by Yugoslavian

293

00:13:17,755 --> 00:13:20,216

Communists at that time and Russian

294

00:13:20,216 --> 00:13:23,844

Communists to come into power.

295

00:13:24,345 --> 00:13:31,393

And the big guys decided, Stalin,

296

00:13:31,685 --> 00:13:33,479

Churchill, Roosevelt, they

297

00:13:33,479 --> 00:13:34,939

decided that Albania would

298

00:13:35,940 --> 00:13:37,399

be a part of the

299

00:13:38,651 --> 00:13:41,529

eastern side of Iron Curtain.

300

00:13:42,154 --> 00:13:46,951

So at the beginning, they allowed

301

00:13:47,576 --> 00:13:48,452

religion in Albania

302

00:13:49,620 --> 00:13:53,290

because it was so cultural, it

303

00:13:53,332 --> 00:13:55,793

was so nominal, it was

304

00:13:55,793 --> 00:13:57,378

a folkloric religion.

305

00:13:58,337 --> 00:14:00,548

It has always been like this in Albania

306

00:14:00,548 --> 00:14:02,716

because, I said, in the

307

00:14:02,716 --> 00:14:04,385

midst of the two civilizations,

308

00:14:04,635 --> 00:14:08,347

and I think nobody cares about that

309

00:14:08,931 --> 00:14:09,765

village in the border.

310

00:14:11,058 --> 00:14:13,894

But that's how we survived, I think.

311

00:14:14,186 --> 00:14:16,647

We developed, which is a bad thing and a

312

00:14:16,647 --> 00:14:18,232

good thing for us at the

313

00:14:18,232 --> 00:14:19,817

same time, we developed

314

00:14:20,693 --> 00:14:24,321

a habit of adaptation, of being adapted,

315

00:14:24,947 --> 00:14:25,948

you know, to anyone who

316

00:14:25,948 --> 00:14:29,660

is in power and who wants

317

00:14:29,660 --> 00:14:31,620

to come and exercise that power.

318

00:14:31,745 --> 00:14:32,746

Okay, let's do it.

319

00:14:33,289 --> 00:14:39,086

So we had in [the] north, Catholics, Catholic

320

00:14:39,086 --> 00:14:40,754

population in the

321

00:14:40,754 --> 00:14:44,091

mid-cities and areas, we have Islam

322

00:14:44,466 --> 00:14:45,426

and we have Muslims,

323

00:14:46,260 --> 00:14:46,885

I mean, predominantly.

324

00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:48,762

And on the south, we have

325

00:14:48,762 --> 00:14:50,472

Christian Eastern Orthodox.

326

00:14:51,515 --> 00:14:55,060

And we have also a big group, I mean, I'm

327

00:14:55,060 --> 00:14:55,686

talking about two

328

00:14:55,686 --> 00:14:57,980

million people, it's very

329

00:14:59,398 --> 00:15:01,567

few people compared to other countries.

330

00:15:01,942 --> 00:15:06,822

But there is also a great population with

331

00:15:06,822 --> 00:15:07,531

another religion,

332

00:15:07,531 --> 00:15:09,158

which is an order of Islam,

333

00:15:09,783 --> 00:15:10,618

it's called Bektashi.

334

00:15:11,118 --> 00:15:14,538

So when they came, because it was just

335

00:15:14,538 --> 00:15:17,416

nominal, communism could

336

00:15:18,417 --> 00:15:20,419

go easily and didn't find

337

00:15:20,586 --> 00:15:21,295

any resistance.

338

00:15:21,670 --> 00:15:22,713

Interesting, okay.

339

00:15:23,130 --> 00:15:23,631

Yeah.

340

00:15:23,839 --> 00:15:24,089

Yeah.

341

00:15:24,089 --> 00:15:26,300

Yeah, many people say it was a national,

342

00:15:26,300 --> 00:15:26,925

it was patriotism,

343

00:15:27,134 --> 00:15:29,178

but I think differently.

344

00:15:30,137 --> 00:15:34,308

So they had not a problem with that. But

345

00:15:35,267 --> 00:15:37,311

They, in the beginning, they persecuted

346

00:15:37,895 --> 00:15:39,271

priests, Catholic priests,

347

00:15:40,981 --> 00:15:42,149

because they were somehow

348

00:15:42,483 --> 00:15:45,486

involved in before in politics, there

349

00:15:45,486 --> 00:15:46,820

were most of the

350

00:15:46,820 --> 00:15:51,825

intellectuals and people who were,

351

00:15:52,451 --> 00:15:57,790

you know, teachers and they had a lot of

352

00:15:57,790 --> 00:16:00,876

influence on the south, on

353

00:16:00,876 --> 00:16:02,169

the northern part of Albania.

354

00:16:02,961 --> 00:16:04,713

So they killed them in the beginning,

355

00:16:05,589 --> 00:16:06,131

they persecuted

356

00:16:06,131 --> 00:16:08,759

Catholic priests and monks that

357

00:16:09,259 --> 00:16:09,802

were there.

358

00:16:10,678 --> 00:16:17,685

But after that, in ' 67, they decided to

359

00:16:17,685 --> 00:16:20,312

erase religion from at

360

00:16:20,312 --> 00:16:22,189

all, wipe out any kind of

361

00:16:22,189 --> 00:16:23,399

religion from Albania.

362

00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:32,032

Politically in political context, because it

363

00:16:32,032 --> 00:16:32,908

has always been a small

364

00:16:32,908 --> 00:16:35,077

country, they were helped

365

00:16:35,077 --> 00:16:36,870

in the beginning by Yugoslavs, then they

366

00:16:36,870 --> 00:16:37,746

broke with them and then

367

00:16:37,746 --> 00:16:39,373

by Russians, and then we

368

00:16:39,373 --> 00:16:41,500

broke with them and they ended up being

369

00:16:41,500 --> 00:16:46,422

helped by Chinese Communist Party so far.

370

00:16:48,632 --> 00:16:50,676

So how we show our

371

00:16:51,927 --> 00:16:53,303

loyalty to the Chinese Party?

372

00:16:54,054 --> 00:16:56,056

Let's do a cultural revolution.

373

00:16:57,057 --> 00:16:57,933

So what should we do

374

00:16:57,933 --> 00:16:59,268

about cultural revolution?

375

00:16:59,810 --> 00:17:01,186

Oh, we have religion.

376

00:17:02,563 --> 00:17:03,397

And the Communist

377

00:17:03,397 --> 00:17:06,066

atheist ideology doesn't...

378

00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:06,775

Wow.

379

00:17:07,192 --> 00:17:09,737

It's against religion, its country is

380

00:17:09,737 --> 00:17:10,612

opposite to religion.

381

00:17:10,863 --> 00:17:13,741

So let's show our loyalty to Chinese

382

00:17:13,741 --> 00:17:15,993

people by erasing religion.

383

00:17:18,370 --> 00:17:20,205

That's kind of, that's

384

00:17:20,205 --> 00:17:21,123

like weird and bizarre.

385

00:17:21,248 --> 00:17:24,626

I mean, that's terrifying actually.

386

00:17:26,503 --> 00:17:29,798

So we're talking a very

387

00:17:29,798 --> 00:17:32,676

anti-God environment here.

388

00:17:33,260 --> 00:17:34,428

And so what did they do then?

389

00:17:34,428 --> 00:17:36,054

You're talking about they were killing

390

00:17:36,054 --> 00:17:37,389

Christians or persecuting Christians.

391

00:17:38,682 --> 00:17:40,934

You're saying in 1967 and on, you know,

392

00:17:40,934 --> 00:17:41,393

how they're siding

393

00:17:41,393 --> 00:17:42,686

with China, what did they

394

00:17:42,686 --> 00:17:45,689

do to have this cultural revolution?

395

00:17:45,689 --> 00:17:46,732

Sounds so communist to

396

00:17:46,732 --> 00:17:47,900

call it that, I guess.

397

00:17:47,900 --> 00:17:48,901

I mean, it sounds like something that you

398

00:17:48,901 --> 00:17:49,359

would call it a

399

00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:50,694

cultural revolution in reality.

400

00:17:50,736 --> 00:17:51,528

It's like eradicating

401

00:17:51,528 --> 00:17:53,405

religion, essentially.

402

00:17:53,405 --> 00:17:54,823

Just for the sake of, you know...

403

00:17:55,741 --> 00:17:57,284

To look good to the others.

404

00:17:57,284 --> 00:17:59,703

To the others who are on the far east.

405

00:18:01,371 --> 00:18:01,747

Because they were

406

00:18:01,747 --> 00:18:03,624

feeding us at that time.

407

00:18:04,082 --> 00:18:05,209

I was reading about that a little bit.

408

00:18:05,209 --> 00:18:06,835

There was a lot of food imports coming

409

00:18:06,835 --> 00:18:09,588

because Albania was in a

410

00:18:09,588 --> 00:18:11,507

bad condition and they needed

411

00:18:11,507 --> 00:18:12,174

the food.

412

00:18:12,174 --> 00:18:13,425

And never succeeded to that.

413

00:18:13,926 --> 00:18:16,303

Although after we broke with Chinese,

414

00:18:16,637 --> 00:18:18,806

they said, "Oh, we will

415

00:18:18,806 --> 00:18:19,973

provide for ourselves."

416

00:18:21,725 --> 00:18:22,226

They never.

417

00:18:22,226 --> 00:18:24,228

And it was not for technical reasons.

418

00:18:24,937 --> 00:18:27,564

But yes, they did like all

419

00:18:27,564 --> 00:18:29,817

politicians do, you know.

420

00:18:29,817 --> 00:18:32,152

They said, "I'm not the

421

00:18:32,152 --> 00:18:33,779

hand who will do that."

422

00:18:34,571 --> 00:18:40,869

So there were some young guys, boys and

423

00:18:40,869 --> 00:18:43,372

girls that had this idea,

424

00:18:44,540 --> 00:18:46,500

a revolutionary idea that

425

00:18:46,500 --> 00:18:48,877

religion belongs to past.

426

00:18:50,420 --> 00:18:54,007

And it's something, you know, it's not

427

00:18:54,007 --> 00:18:56,468

for the modern life and

428

00:18:56,468 --> 00:18:57,719

the progress that we're

429

00:18:58,428 --> 00:18:59,012

living in, and

430

00:18:59,012 --> 00:19:01,348

especially for communist ideology.

431

00:19:02,307 --> 00:19:04,059

We are looking forward to...

432

00:19:05,477 --> 00:19:06,728

We're looking to the future, right?

433

00:19:06,728 --> 00:19:08,021

We don't want religion

434

00:19:08,021 --> 00:19:08,981

because it's in the past.

435

00:19:09,147 --> 00:19:12,317

We're looking to utopian society.

436

00:19:12,860 --> 00:19:15,779

So religion is a stumble block.

437

00:19:15,779 --> 00:19:17,447

So let's get rid of that.

438

00:19:18,448 --> 00:19:22,494

And they started to, you know, talk and

439

00:19:22,494 --> 00:19:24,329

raise their voice and ask

440

00:19:24,329 --> 00:19:27,082

the state to do something

441

00:19:27,165 --> 00:19:27,916

about this.

442

00:19:28,750 --> 00:19:31,628

They even, by their own initiative, went

443

00:19:31,628 --> 00:19:33,547

to the churches and, you

444

00:19:33,547 --> 00:19:37,259

know, put down the buildings.

445

00:19:37,968 --> 00:19:40,971

And then after that, what can we do?

446

00:19:42,431 --> 00:19:43,724

It's a communist revolution.

447

00:19:44,057 --> 00:19:45,183

It's part of a communist revolution.

448

00:19:45,434 --> 00:19:48,228

So let's eradicate everything.

449

00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:50,314

Even, you know,

450

00:19:50,314 --> 00:19:51,440

mentioning the name of God.

451

00:19:52,482 --> 00:19:54,401

So it was a society

452

00:19:54,401 --> 00:19:57,237

run by, you know, police.

453

00:19:58,071 --> 00:20:00,240

Like a police state.

454

00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:01,450

A mentality, police state.

455

00:20:01,450 --> 00:20:04,369

It was not at all the country.

456

00:20:05,787 --> 00:20:07,664

See this is so interesting because even

457

00:20:07,664 --> 00:20:09,333

in your most strict

458

00:20:09,333 --> 00:20:10,834

other communist countries,

459

00:20:11,084 --> 00:20:13,545

you know, Soviet Union, North Korea, even

460

00:20:13,545 --> 00:20:15,797

today, would still

461

00:20:16,298 --> 00:20:17,716

say, "Oh, well, you know,

462

00:20:17,841 --> 00:20:19,593

we'll let one Catholic church be open

463

00:20:19,593 --> 00:20:21,261

over here just so, well,

464

00:20:21,261 --> 00:20:22,971

we're not- to make it look

465

00:20:22,971 --> 00:20:23,430

good.

466

00:20:23,931 --> 00:20:26,391

"We're not persecuting the

467

00:20:26,391 --> 00:20:27,643

Christians," which obviously they are.

468

00:20:27,893 --> 00:20:29,811

But Albania wasn't even trying to be

469

00:20:29,811 --> 00:20:30,687

subtle at this point.

470

00:20:30,896 --> 00:20:32,356

They're just like, this is just, there

471

00:20:32,356 --> 00:20:33,941

are no options for religion here.

472

00:20:34,983 --> 00:20:35,192

Yeah.

473

00:20:35,275 --> 00:20:35,567

Yeah.

474

00:20:35,567 --> 00:20:37,527

Well, I know even in North Korea, I know

475

00:20:37,527 --> 00:20:38,654

there are churches there.

476

00:20:38,862 --> 00:20:39,321

Yeah.

477

00:20:39,655 --> 00:20:40,364

Run by communists.

478

00:20:40,989 --> 00:20:41,740

If you go on Google

479

00:20:41,740 --> 00:20:43,367

Maps, you can even find them.

480

00:20:43,367 --> 00:20:44,743

They've been pinned and stuff.

481

00:20:44,868 --> 00:20:46,745

Yeah, and some friends

482

00:20:46,745 --> 00:20:48,080

there, they've been there.

483

00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:49,665

They say you go there and you understand

484

00:20:49,665 --> 00:20:50,874

they are actors, you know.

485

00:20:50,874 --> 00:20:53,502

There are some men and women actors, you

486

00:20:53,502 --> 00:20:55,170

know, head covering even

487

00:20:55,170 --> 00:20:57,214

in Catholic or Protestant

488

00:20:57,339 --> 00:20:57,506

or...

489

00:20:57,881 --> 00:20:59,758

And a preacher is a communist guy.

490

00:20:59,967 --> 00:21:01,301

But so it's so interesting because it's

491

00:21:01,301 --> 00:21:03,220

all an act, but yet what

492

00:21:03,220 --> 00:21:04,721

are they trying to prove?

493

00:21:04,721 --> 00:21:06,765

I guess it's trying to say, "Oh, well,

494

00:21:06,765 --> 00:21:08,600

we're not that anti-religion."

495

00:21:09,101 --> 00:21:11,144

Whereas your country at that point was

496

00:21:11,144 --> 00:21:11,728

saying, "We're not

497

00:21:11,728 --> 00:21:13,021

even trying to hide this.

498

00:21:13,438 --> 00:21:14,314

We're just going to

499

00:21:14,314 --> 00:21:15,315

eradicate this completely."

500

00:21:15,315 --> 00:21:15,607

Yes.

501

00:21:16,274 --> 00:21:20,737

It was for the sake of...

502

00:21:21,947 --> 00:21:24,950

It could do that.

503

00:21:24,950 --> 00:21:26,368

Our dictator, he could do that.

504

00:21:26,910 --> 00:21:30,539

At the state of the

505

00:21:31,248 --> 00:21:33,333

country that was at that time.

506

00:21:34,418 --> 00:21:38,213

Historically, coming from

507

00:21:38,213 --> 00:21:40,173

this adaptation all the time.

508

00:21:42,134 --> 00:21:44,011

I think anyone could do.

509

00:21:44,761 --> 00:21:46,888

Unfortunately, I'm not glad to say that.

510

00:21:46,888 --> 00:21:47,723

I'm not happy to say

511

00:21:47,723 --> 00:21:48,932

that, but they could do that.

512

00:21:49,349 --> 00:21:51,184

And yeah, they succeeded.

513

00:21:51,893 --> 00:21:52,561

They succeeded.

514

00:21:52,561 --> 00:21:54,604

They raised the generation of atheists.

515

00:21:56,231 --> 00:22:03,030

Well, I think now it was not a really bad

516

00:22:03,030 --> 00:22:05,032

thing because they wiped

517

00:22:05,032 --> 00:22:07,534

out all false religion.

518

00:22:11,496 --> 00:22:11,663

Wow.

519

00:22:13,373 --> 00:22:15,083

Yeah, because this isn't just they're

520

00:22:15,083 --> 00:22:15,959

targeting Christianity,

521

00:22:15,959 --> 00:22:17,085

they're targeting all religion.

522

00:22:17,544 --> 00:22:17,919

Yes.

523

00:22:18,086 --> 00:22:18,462

Anything.

524

00:22:18,628 --> 00:22:21,465

Anything that relates to

525

00:22:21,465 --> 00:22:23,800

God or to spirituality.

526

00:22:24,634 --> 00:22:24,843

Anything.

527

00:22:25,761 --> 00:22:25,969

Anything.

528

00:22:26,344 --> 00:22:28,388

And that was a very...

529

00:22:28,889 --> 00:22:31,099

For me, it was an advantage, a

530

00:22:31,099 --> 00:22:33,894

missed advantage in early 90s.

531

00:22:36,855 --> 00:22:38,607

But it was an advantage.

532

00:22:39,316 --> 00:22:43,361

And now we have a generation of my

533

00:22:43,361 --> 00:22:45,072

father, for example, of my parents.

534

00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:45,989

They are atheists.

535

00:22:48,075 --> 00:22:51,119

But immediately after the communism fell,

536

00:22:51,953 --> 00:22:52,579

the next day they

537

00:22:52,579 --> 00:22:54,247

were ashamed to say they

538

00:22:54,247 --> 00:22:55,040

are atheists.

539

00:22:56,041 --> 00:22:58,043

Oh, because it's related to communism.

540

00:22:59,127 --> 00:23:00,128

Oh, okay.

541

00:23:00,337 --> 00:23:00,962

Okay, I see.

542

00:23:01,505 --> 00:23:03,090

So if you're talking living in a police

543

00:23:03,090 --> 00:23:04,674

state, eradicating all

544

00:23:04,674 --> 00:23:06,051

religion, you mentioned how

545

00:23:06,093 --> 00:23:08,970

if you even said the name of God or

546

00:23:08,970 --> 00:23:10,305

talked about it, that

547

00:23:10,305 --> 00:23:11,306

would be a huge problem.

548

00:23:11,306 --> 00:23:12,015

You could go to jail,

549

00:23:12,349 --> 00:23:13,642

which is very aggressive.

550

00:23:14,017 --> 00:23:14,643

I guess someone would

551

00:23:14,643 --> 00:23:16,394

report you to the police or...

552

00:23:16,394 --> 00:23:19,940

Yeah, spying was a part of the culture.

553

00:23:20,732 --> 00:23:22,400

And I was also looking this up too.

554

00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:24,111

You talk about how the whole country is

555

00:23:24,111 --> 00:23:25,237

surrounded by electric fence.

556

00:23:25,237 --> 00:23:26,780

Well, you have the ocean on one side, but

557

00:23:26,780 --> 00:23:27,697

then you had electric

558

00:23:27,697 --> 00:23:28,698

fence on the land borders,

559

00:23:29,366 --> 00:23:30,325

heavily fortified border.

560

00:23:30,575 --> 00:23:33,870

And I found very few cases where people

561

00:23:33,870 --> 00:23:36,331

were able to escape through that wall.

562

00:23:36,331 --> 00:23:36,957

Is that true?

563

00:23:37,165 --> 00:23:38,125

Or maybe I want to make

564

00:23:38,125 --> 00:23:38,959

sure I'm getting that right.

565

00:23:38,959 --> 00:23:40,502

But whereas the Berlin Wall, a lot more

566

00:23:40,502 --> 00:23:41,253

people were able to get

567

00:23:41,253 --> 00:23:42,003

through the iron curtain.

568

00:23:42,420 --> 00:23:43,004

Comparing to that.

569

00:23:43,171 --> 00:23:44,131

Compared, yeah, yeah, yeah.

570

00:23:44,798 --> 00:23:45,257

That's...

571

00:23:46,216 --> 00:23:47,342

Yeah, people were...

572

00:23:48,135 --> 00:23:50,512

Many people were killed on the border.

573

00:23:51,346 --> 00:23:52,597

Very few people succeeded.

574

00:23:53,223 --> 00:23:54,224

Did you ever know of

575

00:23:54,224 --> 00:23:55,934

anybody that tried to escape?

576

00:23:56,643 --> 00:23:57,561

Oh, yes.

577

00:23:57,936 --> 00:24:01,064

I know some people, a

578

00:24:01,064 --> 00:24:03,066

teacher, and they...

579

00:24:04,651 --> 00:24:08,947

Teacher in elementary school and he

580

00:24:09,865 --> 00:24:12,200

pretended to go for

581

00:24:14,578 --> 00:24:17,998

excursion in the area, but he was

582

00:24:17,998 --> 00:24:21,960

close to the border and he escaped.

583

00:24:23,170 --> 00:24:27,757

He was in late 80s before it was more

584

00:24:27,757 --> 00:24:30,135

difficult, but they were afraid also.

585

00:24:30,343 --> 00:24:31,803

And when they would go, some of them,

586

00:24:31,803 --> 00:24:32,429

they were unfortunately

587

00:24:32,429 --> 00:24:34,806

brought back from Yugoslavia

588

00:24:35,307 --> 00:24:37,350

or from Greece, I think.

589

00:24:38,268 --> 00:24:43,815

So a human being has the ability, and

590

00:24:43,815 --> 00:24:45,066

it's fascinating how it

591

00:24:45,066 --> 00:24:48,278

has the ability to convince

592

00:24:50,363 --> 00:24:54,868

himself that you can live like this.

593

00:24:55,619 --> 00:24:56,661

And you can find...

594

00:24:57,537 --> 00:24:59,206

It's fascinating for me.

595

00:24:59,998 --> 00:25:04,502

People found joy in everyday life, found

596

00:25:04,502 --> 00:25:06,546

some things to enjoy in everyday life.

597

00:25:06,546 --> 00:25:07,130

They were laughing.

598

00:25:07,631 --> 00:25:10,967

I remember my family, my

599

00:25:10,967 --> 00:25:13,011

cousins, they were laughing.

600

00:25:13,345 --> 00:25:19,059

They were enjoying some very, very few

601

00:25:19,059 --> 00:25:19,809

things that they had.

602

00:25:19,809 --> 00:25:22,354

They were enjoying relationships,

603

00:25:23,146 --> 00:25:25,023

although it was very

604

00:25:25,023 --> 00:25:28,276

dangerous within your family or

605

00:25:28,276 --> 00:25:30,528

within your relatives to

606

00:25:30,528 --> 00:25:31,571

talk about these things.

607

00:25:31,780 --> 00:25:32,697

It was prohibited.

608

00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:34,699

But still they found some...

609

00:25:35,116 --> 00:25:39,329

It makes me think of today, how much

610

00:25:39,329 --> 00:25:41,081

complaint is of not having

611

00:25:41,081 --> 00:25:42,457

enough in order

612

00:25:42,457 --> 00:25:46,419

to be happy or to enjoy things or to

613

00:25:46,419 --> 00:25:48,463

laugh or to stay with people.

614

00:25:51,758 --> 00:25:53,718

When I think of that time, I say, "Oh,

615

00:25:54,219 --> 00:25:56,304

are humans the same or not?"

616

00:25:57,347 --> 00:25:58,723

I mean, you're describing getting up at

617

00:25:58,723 --> 00:25:59,641

three o'clock in the

618

00:25:59,641 --> 00:26:01,393

morning to get in the queue

619

00:26:01,559 --> 00:26:02,727

to get milk for the day.

620

00:26:02,727 --> 00:26:03,937

And you go there and

621

00:26:03,937 --> 00:26:05,438

you have fun with your...

622

00:26:06,564 --> 00:26:08,275

On the one side, like I said, on the one

623

00:26:08,275 --> 00:26:10,443

side, you understand

624

00:26:10,443 --> 00:26:11,695

something is wrong, but then

625

00:26:11,736 --> 00:26:14,155

you say, Hey, you accept that.

626

00:26:16,241 --> 00:26:19,619

How able is a human being to accept

627

00:26:19,619 --> 00:26:22,330

things, good at that things?"

628

00:26:22,539 --> 00:26:24,207

Humans are very adaptable.

629

00:26:24,249 --> 00:26:27,794

Yeah, very adaptable, which can be a good

630

00:26:27,794 --> 00:26:28,712

thing or a bad thing.

631

00:26:29,462 --> 00:26:31,006

I think you told me though on the phone

632

00:26:31,006 --> 00:26:32,299

as an example how

633

00:26:32,299 --> 00:26:34,759

someone had went on a trip

634

00:26:35,010 --> 00:26:37,137

out of Albania, like on a visa or

635

00:26:37,137 --> 00:26:38,346

whatever, and had

636

00:26:38,346 --> 00:26:39,848

brought a Coca-Cola back.

637

00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:41,599

Was it a Coca-Cola?

638

00:26:41,599 --> 00:26:43,018

Oh, it was like fun today.

639

00:26:43,101 --> 00:26:46,730

Yeah, and how that was so significant to

640

00:26:46,730 --> 00:26:47,605

have something like that

641

00:26:47,605 --> 00:26:48,690

because you just did not

642

00:26:48,690 --> 00:26:49,274

have that.

643

00:26:49,858 --> 00:26:52,569

Yeah, that is another

644

00:26:52,569 --> 00:26:55,280

sad side of the story.

645

00:26:56,239 --> 00:27:02,871

When I remember myself or I remember my

646

00:27:02,871 --> 00:27:07,709

people whom they would

647

00:27:07,709 --> 00:27:10,587

put just a little thing, I

648

00:27:10,587 --> 00:27:12,213

think that was coming from outside.

649

00:27:12,839 --> 00:27:15,800

There were some drivers of the big trucks

650

00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,720

bringing things and

651

00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:20,847

they were the lucky ones

652

00:27:20,930 --> 00:27:26,227

for us because they could buy a pair of

653

00:27:26,227 --> 00:27:31,107

jeans or they would bring

654

00:27:31,107 --> 00:27:33,068

soap, just the soap from

655

00:27:33,068 --> 00:27:36,488

outside from the West or a can of Coke.

656

00:27:37,822 --> 00:27:40,950

And they would go to the other relatives

657

00:27:40,950 --> 00:27:42,285

and give them as a gift

658

00:27:42,285 --> 00:27:43,453

and it was a great honor.

659

00:27:44,788 --> 00:27:49,250

And they would put them there on the

660

00:27:49,250 --> 00:27:51,711

furniture for decoration of the house.

661

00:27:53,088 --> 00:27:58,343

So that also developed hunger for just a

662

00:27:58,343 --> 00:28:00,553

little bit of things from outside.

663

00:28:01,096 --> 00:28:02,389

As in there's a world out

664

00:28:02,389 --> 00:28:04,933

there and we can't access it.

665

00:28:05,183 --> 00:28:05,392

Yes.

666

00:28:06,142 --> 00:28:06,976

It was a prison.

667

00:28:07,352 --> 00:28:08,311

It was a big prison.

668

00:28:09,020 --> 00:28:11,731

I was reading a historian that had done a

669

00:28:11,731 --> 00:28:12,273

lot of work in

670

00:28:12,273 --> 00:28:13,441

Albania and I think he used

671

00:28:13,441 --> 00:28:15,068

a phrase something along the lines of

672

00:28:15,068 --> 00:28:18,196

Albania was a giant prison

673

00:28:18,196 --> 00:28:20,240

state or one of the truest

674

00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,034

examples of an actual prison state.

675

00:28:23,034 --> 00:28:23,243

Yeah.

676

00:28:24,536 --> 00:28:26,287

Yeah, it's just how strict it was.

677

00:28:26,788 --> 00:28:27,705

Yes, but it was interesting.

678

00:28:27,914 --> 00:28:31,084

The tourists that came, I mean, they

679

00:28:31,084 --> 00:28:34,003

remember, they said it was so beautiful.

680

00:28:34,629 --> 00:28:35,588

Really? It was so quiet.

681

00:28:36,256 --> 00:28:41,886

It was so, I mean, I have, he reminds me

682

00:28:41,886 --> 00:28:43,138

also of North Korea, I

683

00:28:43,138 --> 00:28:44,764

have friends that they

684

00:28:44,764 --> 00:28:45,515

have been there.

685

00:28:45,515 --> 00:28:46,766

They say it was, no, it's

686

00:28:46,766 --> 00:28:48,935

not like they say it is.

687

00:28:49,602 --> 00:28:50,937

It's quiet.

688

00:28:50,937 --> 00:28:51,855

People are smiling.

689

00:28:52,147 --> 00:28:52,939

People are working.

690

00:28:53,731 --> 00:28:54,899

People are enjoying life.

691

00:28:55,275 --> 00:28:56,693

No, it's not like they say.

692

00:28:56,693 --> 00:28:56,985

Wow.

693

00:29:00,530 --> 00:29:01,489

Because of the ability

694

00:29:01,489 --> 00:29:03,783

of the human being to act.

695

00:29:05,118 --> 00:29:05,452

That's all.

696

00:29:06,327 --> 00:29:08,746

And also it being quiet and not having a

697

00:29:08,746 --> 00:29:09,497

lot of traffic noise

698

00:29:09,497 --> 00:29:10,248

probably because people

699

00:29:10,248 --> 00:29:11,374

didn't own cars either.

700

00:29:11,916 --> 00:29:12,125

Yeah.

701

00:29:12,584 --> 00:29:13,668

Did you all have a vehicle?

702

00:29:13,668 --> 00:29:15,378

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

703

00:29:15,378 --> 00:29:17,422

just bicycles and that's all.

704

00:29:17,422 --> 00:29:17,964

Were not allowed.

705

00:29:18,756 --> 00:29:20,008

You weren't allowed to own a vehicle.

706

00:29:20,008 --> 00:29:21,634

No, no, no, no, no, we were not allowed.

707

00:29:22,218 --> 00:29:22,594

Why not?

708

00:29:22,594 --> 00:29:23,136

We were not allowed.

709

00:29:23,303 --> 00:29:29,142

Well there was something that it's something that it's

710

00:29:29,142 --> 00:29:33,605

coming from the Western type of life.

711

00:29:34,481 --> 00:29:36,357

We didn't own also our houses.

712

00:29:37,233 --> 00:29:37,984

You didn't own your house?

713

00:29:37,984 --> 00:29:40,111

This was the ideology.

714

00:29:40,570 --> 00:29:43,573

So everything belongs to everyone that is

715

00:29:43,573 --> 00:29:44,407

running by the state.

716

00:29:44,741 --> 00:29:44,908

Okay.

717

00:29:44,908 --> 00:29:46,618

So this is a classic Karl Marx, right?

718

00:29:46,618 --> 00:29:47,785

Where he writes in the Communist Manifesto,

719

00:29:48,077 --> 00:29:48,995

eradication of all

720

00:29:48,995 --> 00:29:50,246

private property essentially.

721

00:29:50,622 --> 00:29:51,456

And that's what you had.

722

00:29:51,456 --> 00:29:51,664

Yes.

723

00:29:52,707 --> 00:29:53,458

Okay.

724

00:29:53,541 --> 00:29:56,711

The apartments became, we became owners

725

00:29:56,711 --> 00:29:57,670

of our apartments

726

00:29:57,670 --> 00:29:58,796

after communism fell.

727

00:29:59,923 --> 00:30:02,425

So theoretically they could tell you to

728

00:30:02,425 --> 00:30:03,092

move and you had to

729

00:30:03,092 --> 00:30:04,886

move from your apartment if

730

00:30:04,886 --> 00:30:05,762

you didn't own it.

731

00:30:06,095 --> 00:30:09,641

They would come and even didn't tell you,

732

00:30:09,641 --> 00:30:10,683

no, the truck would

733

00:30:10,683 --> 00:30:12,560

come and say, "Hey, load

734

00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:13,228

your things."

735

00:30:13,228 --> 00:30:17,398

And then especially for the ones that

736

00:30:17,398 --> 00:30:21,736

were brought for political reasons to...

737

00:30:22,028 --> 00:30:22,445

Okay.

738

00:30:23,530 --> 00:30:24,113

Other areas.

739

00:30:24,447 --> 00:30:25,657

Did that ever happen to you?

740

00:30:26,407 --> 00:30:26,866

No, no.

741

00:30:26,866 --> 00:30:27,575

Where you had to move?

742

00:30:28,034 --> 00:30:28,701

No, no, no, no.

743

00:30:28,701 --> 00:30:29,035

Okay.

744

00:30:29,035 --> 00:30:29,827

That was not common.

745

00:30:30,286 --> 00:30:31,079

That was not common.

746

00:30:31,496 --> 00:30:33,414

But they could do that

747

00:30:33,414 --> 00:30:34,207

and you could say nothing.

748

00:30:34,207 --> 00:30:35,208

That is wild.

749

00:30:35,458 --> 00:30:37,460

See, obviously I'm from America, so this

750

00:30:37,460 --> 00:30:39,087

is completely alien to

751

00:30:39,087 --> 00:30:40,713

think of not owning the

752

00:30:40,713 --> 00:30:42,674

house I live in, which is so hard to even

753

00:30:42,674 --> 00:30:44,217

get my- to understand that.

754

00:30:44,425 --> 00:30:46,719

When they came in power, you had a

755

00:30:46,719 --> 00:30:50,431

two-store building or two

756

00:30:50,431 --> 00:30:53,393

house and then would just

757

00:30:53,601 --> 00:30:56,938

come and say, "Hey, there are these four

758

00:30:56,938 --> 00:30:58,815

other families that would live with you."

759

00:30:59,148 --> 00:30:59,357

Wow.

760

00:30:59,607 --> 00:31:00,900

So you go to this room and

761

00:31:00,900 --> 00:31:02,151

the other will live here.

762

00:31:02,986 --> 00:31:03,987

So that's what they did.

763

00:31:04,112 --> 00:31:04,946

That's so different.

764

00:31:05,863 --> 00:31:06,739

That's hard to...

765

00:31:06,739 --> 00:31:07,699

In the name of the people.

766

00:31:08,324 --> 00:31:08,825

Yeah.

767

00:31:09,867 --> 00:31:10,368

Yeah, isn't that

768

00:31:10,368 --> 00:31:11,786

always what it was, right?

769

00:31:11,995 --> 00:31:12,495

This is the...

770

00:31:13,621 --> 00:31:18,126

Yeah, it's such a bizarre mixture that

771

00:31:18,126 --> 00:31:20,211

lasted for so long with

772

00:31:20,211 --> 00:31:21,671

such a level of intensity

773

00:31:22,213 --> 00:31:24,507

of like you're saying spying and policing

774

00:31:24,507 --> 00:31:26,593

and you cannot leave.

775

00:31:27,427 --> 00:31:27,677

One generation.

776

00:31:28,386 --> 00:31:29,679

Yeah, an entire generation.

777

00:31:29,679 --> 00:31:32,265

So you are raised in this and you're in a

778

00:31:32,265 --> 00:31:33,558

place that's pretty

779

00:31:33,558 --> 00:31:34,976

systematically eradicated

780

00:31:35,059 --> 00:31:35,435

religion.

781

00:31:36,019 --> 00:31:37,979

Did you have any concept

782

00:31:37,979 --> 00:31:40,523

of Christianity, God, Jesus?

783

00:31:41,441 --> 00:31:43,276

Did that mean anything to you growing up

784

00:31:43,276 --> 00:31:45,612

in those years up until communism fell?

785

00:31:46,195 --> 00:31:46,904

Talk to me about that.

786

00:31:47,655 --> 00:31:47,822

No.

787

00:31:48,072 --> 00:31:50,617

When I was raised, I was

788

00:31:50,617 --> 00:31:55,496

raised with atheistic ideology.

789

00:31:56,623 --> 00:31:58,166

Everything happened because of evolution.

790

00:31:59,917 --> 00:32:02,920

But now we are lucky,

791

00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:04,964

we've been lucky to- Someone,

792

00:32:07,967 --> 00:32:09,844

it came to his mind,

793

00:32:10,303 --> 00:32:11,554

these communist ideologies.

794

00:32:11,888 --> 00:32:14,724

So now we found the path, the

795

00:32:14,724 --> 00:32:15,933

right path for the humanity.

796

00:32:16,225 --> 00:32:17,935

So let's move ahead.

797

00:32:17,935 --> 00:32:19,020

Let's do everything in

798

00:32:19,020 --> 00:32:20,229

order to achieve that goal.

799

00:32:21,522 --> 00:32:27,153

So that was until, I mean, mid 80s.

800

00:32:27,612 --> 00:32:29,364

But then becoming a

801

00:32:29,364 --> 00:32:30,573

teenager, that's changed.

802

00:32:33,660 --> 00:32:37,038

And Christianity became something that

803

00:32:37,038 --> 00:32:38,247

was connected with the West.

804

00:32:39,832 --> 00:32:41,793

So you'd heard of it and things.

805

00:32:41,959 --> 00:32:42,960

Yes, but you just didn't

806

00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:43,795

know anything about it.

807

00:32:43,795 --> 00:32:44,420

No, no, no.

808

00:32:44,671 --> 00:32:46,255

There was not the gospel-

809

00:32:46,297 --> 00:32:50,093

There were some, I mean, there were some

810

00:32:50,093 --> 00:32:52,637

attempts by some people

811

00:32:52,637 --> 00:32:53,888

from outside that were coming

812

00:32:53,888 --> 00:32:56,933

as tourists and they were trying to leave

813

00:32:56,933 --> 00:32:58,935

like, you know, a

814

00:32:58,935 --> 00:33:01,396

pamphlet here or there, or

815

00:33:01,437 --> 00:33:08,820

even throw Bibles in plastic sacks on

816

00:33:08,820 --> 00:33:11,823

the sea to travel to the coast.

817

00:33:11,823 --> 00:33:12,323

Did it work?

818

00:33:12,699 --> 00:33:13,616

Like, was it successful?

819

00:33:14,033 --> 00:33:16,994

I heard some stories that it worked.

820

00:33:16,994 --> 00:33:18,121

Some people had that.

821

00:33:19,539 --> 00:33:24,127

Some people in Albania, they kept their

822

00:33:24,127 --> 00:33:28,214

religion, their religion, [hidden].

823

00:33:28,339 --> 00:33:31,634

But still it became more a mystical thing

824

00:33:31,634 --> 00:33:33,720

than it was a religion,

825

00:33:33,928 --> 00:33:36,180

you know, and it mixed

826

00:33:36,264 --> 00:33:38,057

with the superstitious,

827

00:33:38,057 --> 00:33:39,934

you know, folkloric things.

828

00:33:41,018 --> 00:33:44,731

So it was, we didn't have any clear

829

00:33:44,731 --> 00:33:47,108

understanding of, well, this religion

830

00:33:47,108 --> 00:33:48,484

says this, the religion

831

00:33:48,609 --> 00:33:50,570

says that, and not at all.

832

00:33:51,195 --> 00:33:53,614

It was mixed, Christianity was mixed with

833

00:33:53,614 --> 00:33:56,159

Western world and Islam

834

00:33:56,159 --> 00:33:57,910

was mixed with Turkey.

835

00:33:58,536 --> 00:33:59,537

Oh, okay.

836

00:33:59,537 --> 00:33:59,912

That's all.

837

00:34:00,204 --> 00:34:00,413

Yeah.

838

00:34:00,455 --> 00:34:02,623

Because Turkish Ottoman empire you

839

00:34:02,623 --> 00:34:04,876

know, invaded Albania for 500 years.

840

00:34:06,043 --> 00:34:06,252

Whoa.

841

00:34:06,586 --> 00:34:08,337

And so we, that's why we

842

00:34:08,337 --> 00:34:10,631

had a lot in common with them.

843

00:34:11,257 --> 00:34:11,507

Yeah.

844

00:34:11,799 --> 00:34:13,718

So that was the idea.

845

00:34:14,343 --> 00:34:16,512

But it's not like you had ever, had you

846

00:34:16,512 --> 00:34:18,389

ever even seen a Bible, for example?

847

00:34:18,681 --> 00:34:19,390

No, no.

848

00:34:20,391 --> 00:34:20,725

No.

849

00:34:21,392 --> 00:34:25,229

Bible was like a magic book, you know,

850

00:34:25,229 --> 00:34:27,607

for the, it was a mystery.

851

00:34:28,316 --> 00:34:29,901

Just mentioning the name of the Bible

852

00:34:29,901 --> 00:34:33,571

was, it was a book for magicians.

853

00:34:34,113 --> 00:34:37,825

You know, that's how I, still my friends,

854

00:34:37,825 --> 00:34:38,826

you know, when they

855

00:34:38,826 --> 00:34:39,786

were talking about they

856

00:34:39,786 --> 00:34:43,331

have an angel, you know, they have...

857

00:34:44,540 --> 00:34:46,375

It was interesting because we had the,

858

00:34:47,752 --> 00:34:49,003

because we are an

859

00:34:49,003 --> 00:34:52,006

ancient population and we had a

860

00:34:52,006 --> 00:34:52,757

lot of history.

861

00:34:53,508 --> 00:34:55,426

And then some of the artifacts in our

862

00:34:55,426 --> 00:34:56,636

history talk about

863

00:34:56,636 --> 00:34:59,180

Christianity and communists didn't,

864

00:35:00,389 --> 00:35:05,311

they needed that to prove that we are a

865

00:35:05,311 --> 00:35:06,604

very ancient nation

866

00:35:07,563 --> 00:35:09,273

because otherwise they would-

867

00:35:09,524 --> 00:35:10,316

Yeah, okay.

868

00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,194

Serbs or Yugoslavians or

869

00:35:13,194 --> 00:35:14,070

Russian, they will just...

870

00:35:14,821 --> 00:35:17,824

And also a part of this international

871

00:35:18,783 --> 00:35:20,201

ideology of communism

872

00:35:20,201 --> 00:35:23,287

paradoxically was also the

873

00:35:23,329 --> 00:35:23,830

nationalism.

874

00:35:25,123 --> 00:35:28,334

You know, so they try to raise this

875

00:35:28,334 --> 00:35:29,919

feeling of nationalism in

876

00:35:29,919 --> 00:35:31,921

order to gather people around,

877

00:35:32,255 --> 00:35:33,214

you know, we are

878

00:35:33,214 --> 00:35:34,257

doing this for the nation.

879

00:35:34,799 --> 00:35:35,883

So because of that, they

880

00:35:35,883 --> 00:35:37,802

kept safe these artifacts.

881

00:35:38,052 --> 00:35:40,596

But they were New Testament, for example,

882

00:35:41,722 --> 00:35:45,852

of the 11th century

883

00:35:45,852 --> 00:35:48,646

or, I don't know. Interesting.

884

00:35:48,646 --> 00:35:49,230

Maybe I'm wrong.

885

00:35:50,064 --> 00:35:52,483

That's kinda bizarre, but I guess they let that

886

00:35:52,483 --> 00:35:53,609

slide because like, oh,

887

00:35:53,609 --> 00:35:54,277

well, that's the history

888

00:35:54,277 --> 00:35:54,610

of Albania.

889

00:35:54,902 --> 00:35:56,779

But like, if you were to go get a New

890

00:35:56,779 --> 00:35:58,072

Testament and try to read it,

891

00:35:58,072 --> 00:35:59,156

that would be a real problem.

892

00:35:59,240 --> 00:36:00,074

Oh, no problem.

893

00:36:00,074 --> 00:36:02,159

It would be the end of your life.

894

00:36:02,743 --> 00:36:04,453

Your family, not only your life.

895

00:36:04,787 --> 00:36:04,996

Really?

896

00:36:05,288 --> 00:36:05,496

Yes.

897

00:36:05,872 --> 00:36:06,163

Okay.

898

00:36:06,163 --> 00:36:08,457

So let's say somehow someone floats a

899

00:36:08,457 --> 00:36:09,417

Bible across the ocean

900

00:36:09,417 --> 00:36:10,501

in a plastic bag, like you

901

00:36:10,501 --> 00:36:12,086

just grabbed whatever and you were to

902

00:36:12,086 --> 00:36:13,462

pick it up and read

903

00:36:13,462 --> 00:36:14,714

it, you know, and have it.

904

00:36:15,381 --> 00:36:16,507

And they were to discover that.

905

00:36:17,008 --> 00:36:17,550

You're saying you

906

00:36:17,550 --> 00:36:18,509

would lose your life or...

907

00:36:18,509 --> 00:36:21,304

You're now an enemy of the state.

908

00:36:21,762 --> 00:36:26,100

And you will never rehabilitate it.

909

00:36:26,100 --> 00:36:29,353

You will never be a normal citizen.

910

00:36:29,812 --> 00:36:39,113

Your family, they had to shun you as a

911

00:36:39,113 --> 00:36:40,031

member of their family.

912

00:36:41,407 --> 00:36:44,160

And even if they do that, they don't know

913

00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:47,079

if that will succeed, if

914

00:36:47,079 --> 00:36:48,331

they will be successful.

915

00:36:48,623 --> 00:36:48,831

Okay.

916

00:36:49,123 --> 00:36:50,583

So then they would end up being punished

917

00:36:50,583 --> 00:36:52,627

potentially for that.

918

00:36:52,919 --> 00:36:57,715

So it was an ideology mixed with a, how

919

00:36:57,715 --> 00:36:59,842

can I say, tribal, you

920

00:36:59,842 --> 00:37:02,303

know, a way of doing things.

921

00:37:03,387 --> 00:37:04,680

So, cultic.

922

00:37:06,098 --> 00:37:07,725

I mean, Enver Hoxha was

923

00:37:07,725 --> 00:37:09,268

not anymore a leader.

924

00:37:09,727 --> 00:37:10,353

He was God.

925

00:37:11,479 --> 00:37:12,271

He knew everything.

926

00:37:13,105 --> 00:37:13,689

He...

927

00:37:14,941 --> 00:37:16,275

Oh, yeah.

928

00:37:16,275 --> 00:37:19,487

His works started from how to educate

929

00:37:20,863 --> 00:37:22,031

children in kindergarten

930

00:37:22,031 --> 00:37:26,535

to how to manage retirement

931

00:37:26,869 --> 00:37:30,998

and how to, you know, the industry, how

932

00:37:30,998 --> 00:37:32,667

it works, the science, the art.

933

00:37:33,584 --> 00:37:36,212

He would talk about everything.

934

00:37:37,004 --> 00:37:37,797

And everybody was...

935

00:37:38,297 --> 00:37:39,924

It looks like the

936

00:37:39,924 --> 00:37:41,759

dictator in North Korea now.

937

00:37:41,801 --> 00:37:42,635

I was gonna say, it

938

00:37:42,635 --> 00:37:44,637

sounds really familiar, right?

939

00:37:44,637 --> 00:37:46,305

Where he's kind of like the leader of

940

00:37:46,305 --> 00:37:46,889

North Korea right

941

00:37:46,889 --> 00:37:48,349

now, Kim Jong Un, right?

942

00:37:48,349 --> 00:37:49,183

Where it's like, he

943

00:37:49,183 --> 00:37:50,351

knows everything and he's...

944

00:37:50,685 --> 00:37:52,979

Yeah, he's almost venerated as God, but

945

00:37:52,979 --> 00:37:54,772

yet they're supposed to be like atheists.

946

00:37:54,772 --> 00:37:55,731

So it's kind of weird, right?

947

00:37:55,731 --> 00:37:58,401

But I wonder if this is going to humans

948

00:37:58,401 --> 00:38:00,236

do kind of want to

949

00:38:00,236 --> 00:38:01,737

worship something, right?

950

00:38:01,737 --> 00:38:02,780

They're looking for something.

951

00:38:03,072 --> 00:38:05,741

And so you're describing them trying to

952

00:38:05,741 --> 00:38:07,952

find it in the state or

953

00:38:07,952 --> 00:38:10,288

in nationalism or in the

954

00:38:10,329 --> 00:38:13,040

dictator or, you know, even

955

00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,126

relationships, they're trying to find

956

00:38:15,126 --> 00:38:16,293

meaning through these

957

00:38:16,377 --> 00:38:17,211

other things.

958

00:38:17,211 --> 00:38:17,420

Yeah.

959

00:38:17,670 --> 00:38:19,463

Because what else do you have, I guess?

960

00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:20,339

Yes.

961

00:38:20,339 --> 00:38:20,756

You know?

962

00:38:20,756 --> 00:38:21,007

Yes.

963

00:38:21,298 --> 00:38:23,134

They...

964

00:38:23,134 --> 00:38:24,093

In the middle of Tirana,

965

00:38:24,093 --> 00:38:25,886

it's still there now as...

966

00:38:27,638 --> 00:38:29,348

It was after he died,

967

00:38:30,307 --> 00:38:31,684

they built a pyramid.

968

00:38:33,144 --> 00:38:34,770

It's a building that from up...

969

00:38:35,479 --> 00:38:39,650

You can see it has the shape of an eagle,

970

00:38:40,735 --> 00:38:45,448

which is a symbolic, a national symbol of

971

00:38:45,448 --> 00:38:45,740

Albania.

972

00:38:46,365 --> 00:38:48,826

But when you go down and you see that,

973

00:38:48,826 --> 00:38:49,618

you know, it's a pyramid.

974

00:38:50,327 --> 00:38:51,078

And there was the

975

00:38:51,078 --> 00:38:53,914

pharaoh under that pyramid.

976

00:38:53,914 --> 00:38:55,499

So that was a museum for him.

977

00:38:56,959 --> 00:38:57,293

Interesting.

978

00:38:57,918 --> 00:38:58,085

Yeah.

979

00:38:58,586 --> 00:39:00,838

So he was worshipped.

980

00:39:01,047 --> 00:39:04,216

I think he was worshipped as a god.

981

00:39:04,842 --> 00:39:06,927

Of course, there were some people in

982

00:39:06,927 --> 00:39:09,472

Albania, I mean, few people in Albania

983

00:39:09,472 --> 00:39:11,682

that they understood

984

00:39:11,766 --> 00:39:12,558

things and they...

985

00:39:12,725 --> 00:39:15,603

But even then they had to do that, you

986

00:39:15,603 --> 00:39:17,730

know, they have to act like that.

987

00:39:18,773 --> 00:39:23,652

So it was a false god, worshipped in a

988

00:39:23,652 --> 00:39:27,239

false everyday liturgic way, you know?

989

00:39:27,573 --> 00:39:29,867

Like it's describing a world where

990

00:39:29,867 --> 00:39:31,327

everything is kind of a lie.

991

00:39:31,535 --> 00:39:32,411

It's a lie, yeah.

992

00:39:32,787 --> 00:39:33,079

Yeah.

993

00:39:33,788 --> 00:39:34,872

And you get used to that and you...

994

00:39:35,915 --> 00:39:37,041

You learn to live with it.

995

00:39:37,041 --> 00:39:39,168

It's so pitful.

996

00:39:39,168 --> 00:39:40,920

It's so sad, you know?

997

00:39:41,962 --> 00:39:42,588

That's what's...

998

00:39:42,588 --> 00:39:42,922

In the end.

999

00:39:43,380 --> 00:39:45,508

Because ultimately a system like that

00:39:45,508 --> 00:39:46,425

could only last but so

00:39:46,425 --> 00:39:48,219

long, right, before the cracks

00:39:48,511 --> 00:39:49,512

begin to form and the

00:39:49,512 --> 00:39:50,596

foundation, so to speak.

00:39:51,472 --> 00:39:52,098

Yeah, it...

00:39:52,264 --> 00:39:53,057

It has to, right?

00:39:53,057 --> 00:39:54,225

It collapsed everywhere.

00:39:54,475 --> 00:39:54,809

Yeah.

00:39:55,142 --> 00:39:55,851

So which...

00:39:56,519 --> 00:39:58,395

I'm really curious about that because

00:39:58,395 --> 00:40:00,022

Berlin Wall comes down in

00:40:00,022 --> 00:40:02,191

1989, Soviet Union dissolves

00:40:02,274 --> 00:40:02,983

in 1991.

00:40:03,943 --> 00:40:06,028

When does communism fall in Albania?

00:40:06,153 --> 00:40:06,904

And Muddimin writing that...

00:40:07,071 --> 00:40:07,613

1991.

00:40:08,364 --> 00:40:09,198

1991, okay.

00:40:09,198 --> 00:40:12,451

It was one of the last countries that,

00:40:13,661 --> 00:40:15,246

you know, communism fell.

00:40:16,247 --> 00:40:18,541

And I'm convinced of

00:40:18,541 --> 00:40:22,628

what happened, just my...

00:40:22,628 --> 00:40:24,213

This is my opinion, this is my conviction

00:40:24,213 --> 00:40:25,798

that the communists

00:40:25,798 --> 00:40:28,134

once they, you know, so

00:40:28,634 --> 00:40:31,220

watch what happened with Ceausescu, the

00:40:31,220 --> 00:40:34,598

leader in Romania, they killed him.

00:40:34,598 --> 00:40:36,475

Yeah, he was an executed, yeah.

00:40:37,309 --> 00:40:40,104

So they decided to lead the

00:40:40,104 --> 00:40:42,481

democratization process of Albania.

00:40:42,773 --> 00:40:43,357

So that they wouldn't

00:40:43,357 --> 00:40:44,859

get punished or killed.

00:40:45,776 --> 00:40:48,362

And they said, "Okay, let's do it slowly

00:40:48,362 --> 00:40:50,906

without any damage, you

00:40:50,906 --> 00:40:54,285

know, and not putting Albanians

00:40:54,618 --> 00:40:55,661

against Albanians."

00:40:56,287 --> 00:40:56,704

So that's...

00:40:56,954 --> 00:40:57,830

They formed two parties.

00:40:58,831 --> 00:41:02,168

One is left-wing and the other is

00:41:02,168 --> 00:41:04,545

right-wing, run by communists.

00:41:05,796 --> 00:41:08,215

So they are now promoting

00:41:08,215 --> 00:41:11,677

for 35 years the democracy.

00:41:13,471 --> 00:41:17,141

And the lie continues in a different way.

00:41:18,767 --> 00:41:19,685

With the country that

00:41:19,685 --> 00:41:22,938

says we're free now to think.

00:41:24,231 --> 00:41:26,275

Interesting. We're not a police state anymore.

00:41:26,984 --> 00:41:28,903

But I would describe it as a

00:41:28,903 --> 00:41:29,820

post-communist, still

00:41:29,820 --> 00:41:34,700

post-communist country, you know.

00:41:34,700 --> 00:41:36,243

There's still elements of that that are

00:41:36,243 --> 00:41:38,204

still there even now, then.

00:41:38,537 --> 00:41:38,746

Yes.

00:41:39,163 --> 00:41:41,707

I mean, it's not outside.

00:41:42,124 --> 00:41:43,334

You see, you know, the oh...

00:41:44,710 --> 00:41:46,921

If you come there, it's a Western

00:41:46,921 --> 00:41:48,422

country, you know, everything is...

00:41:48,756 --> 00:41:51,467

Okay, with some influential of Eastern

00:41:51,467 --> 00:41:54,386

cultural things, you know, elements.

00:41:55,012 --> 00:41:56,889

But still there, you know,

00:41:56,889 --> 00:41:58,140

we are aiming to go in Europe.

00:41:59,767 --> 00:42:01,560

But with the same

00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:03,187

mentality, you know, the same...

00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:05,147

Just my opinion.

00:42:05,731 --> 00:42:06,482

What a weird...

00:42:06,732 --> 00:42:07,441

I wish I was wrong,

00:42:07,858 --> 00:42:08,609

I'm wrong.

00:42:09,193 --> 00:42:09,485

Yeah.

00:42:09,777 --> 00:42:11,779

Like to live through that transition from

00:42:11,779 --> 00:42:13,447

being this incredibly

00:42:13,447 --> 00:42:14,406

strict communist country

00:42:14,531 --> 00:42:16,617

to, well, I'm guessing they took the

00:42:16,617 --> 00:42:17,868

electric funds down and,

00:42:17,868 --> 00:42:19,328

you know, allowed you to have

00:42:19,328 --> 00:42:20,412

private property again.

00:42:20,913 --> 00:42:20,996

Yeah.

00:42:20,996 --> 00:42:22,665

What was that transition phase like?

00:42:22,665 --> 00:42:24,083

That must have been a

00:42:24,083 --> 00:42:25,459

strange thing to live through.

00:42:25,668 --> 00:42:25,876

Yeah.

00:42:26,293 --> 00:42:26,877

Shocking thing.

00:42:27,211 --> 00:42:27,586

Yeah.

00:42:27,586 --> 00:42:30,130

Within one day, oh, we are

00:42:30,130 --> 00:42:33,425

now a democratic society.

00:42:33,425 --> 00:42:34,301

One day, just boom.

00:42:34,593 --> 00:42:35,719

Just boom, you know.

00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:38,639

And then we changed the laws.

00:42:38,681 --> 00:42:41,767

And so every one of us at that time was

00:42:41,767 --> 00:42:44,979

thinking that within two

00:42:44,979 --> 00:42:45,980

or three years we will be

00:42:45,980 --> 00:42:46,563

like Switzerland.

00:42:47,189 --> 00:42:49,608

If someone would say, no, it's not, we

00:42:49,608 --> 00:42:51,944

need five or six years, we would...

00:42:54,530 --> 00:42:56,699

We would laugh at him because now he

00:42:56,699 --> 00:42:57,700

said, okay, the

00:42:57,700 --> 00:42:59,243

problem was just communism.

00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:01,620

Now the communism is not anymore.

00:43:02,204 --> 00:43:03,622

Everything will be great.

00:43:05,499 --> 00:43:10,838

So that's why I was in my high school.

00:43:11,797 --> 00:43:15,426

I was watching for some years the only

00:43:15,426 --> 00:43:16,635

one channel television

00:43:16,635 --> 00:43:18,679

that we had, state television.

00:43:21,515 --> 00:43:23,434

There were musicians playing there, but

00:43:23,434 --> 00:43:25,060

we were also watching

00:43:25,060 --> 00:43:26,979

television and we were

00:43:26,979 --> 00:43:29,106

listening to, started to listen, you

00:43:29,106 --> 00:43:30,149

know, music from the West.

00:43:31,150 --> 00:43:33,944

And then immediately I grabbed the guitar

00:43:33,944 --> 00:43:36,113

and gathered a band in my high school.

00:43:36,864 --> 00:43:39,491

And so we performed in

00:43:39,491 --> 00:43:42,119

1991 of the first festival.

00:43:43,954 --> 00:43:47,207

It is still today a national festival.

00:43:47,458 --> 00:43:51,253

It's a big one, big music event in

00:43:52,504 --> 00:43:56,050

December, every December.

00:43:56,342 --> 00:44:03,599

So we went there in 1991 with a song with

00:44:03,599 --> 00:44:04,892

this title, "I Dream."

00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:10,064

So the lyrics were about, you know, we

00:44:10,064 --> 00:44:12,274

dream to be far away now

00:44:12,274 --> 00:44:14,526

from the disappointment

00:44:14,985 --> 00:44:17,529

or the pain.

00:44:18,405 --> 00:44:21,784

And we dream to be like stars in heaven.

00:44:22,117 --> 00:44:29,750

So let's continue this kind of walk to

00:44:29,750 --> 00:44:32,836

become a star because my

00:44:32,836 --> 00:44:35,339

idea was that these stars,

00:44:36,757 --> 00:44:39,134

music stars, movie stars,

00:44:40,094 --> 00:44:42,054

politicians and this kind of-

00:44:42,513 --> 00:44:46,767

So in the West, they were the ones that

00:44:46,767 --> 00:44:48,102

were representing joy

00:44:48,102 --> 00:44:50,604

and happiness that lacked

00:44:50,771 --> 00:44:52,147

in our country.

00:44:53,273 --> 00:44:56,110

So let's become old, if it's possible,

00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:59,905

movie stars, you know, music stars. Let's become-

00:45:01,490 --> 00:45:03,784

So that was, and guess what?

00:45:04,118 --> 00:45:05,536

We won the first prize.

00:45:07,454 --> 00:45:10,833

It was a little bit strange because we

00:45:10,833 --> 00:45:14,086

were dressed like Beatles in 1991.

00:45:16,713 --> 00:45:18,006

But the clock of the Albanians

00:45:18,006 --> 00:45:20,592

with music stopped that year.

00:45:21,093 --> 00:45:21,301

Yeah.

00:45:21,635 --> 00:45:22,010

Wow.

00:45:23,011 --> 00:45:23,220

Yeah.

00:45:23,303 --> 00:45:24,721

Like that was, again, it must have been

00:45:25,264 --> 00:45:26,723

disorienting to go

00:45:26,723 --> 00:45:27,808

through this experience.

00:45:27,933 --> 00:45:30,352

Like I can't even imagine.

00:45:30,769 --> 00:45:32,271

And so, okay, so that happens.

00:45:33,021 --> 00:45:34,731

Suddenly, hey, we have some freedom here.

00:45:35,399 --> 00:45:37,234

At what point does religion come into the

00:45:37,234 --> 00:45:38,861

scene, both for you and

00:45:38,861 --> 00:45:40,362

just in society where,

00:45:40,612 --> 00:45:42,281

hey, it's okay to talk about God now.

00:45:42,281 --> 00:45:44,450

Hey, here's a Bible and I can read it.

00:45:44,450 --> 00:45:45,325

Did that happen pretty quickly?

00:45:45,325 --> 00:45:46,034

Yes.

00:45:46,702 --> 00:45:48,620

So missionaries flooded

00:45:48,620 --> 00:45:51,039

Albania from the West.

00:45:52,332 --> 00:45:55,669

And on the streets, you would see crowds

00:45:55,669 --> 00:45:58,338

of people fighting

00:45:58,338 --> 00:45:59,590

with each other to grab a

00:45:59,590 --> 00:45:59,840

Bible.

00:46:00,549 --> 00:46:00,883

Really?

00:46:01,216 --> 00:46:01,592

Yes.

00:46:02,426 --> 00:46:05,679

And the stadiums, you know, with this

00:46:06,763 --> 00:46:13,520

evangelistic events, halls everywhere.

00:46:15,898 --> 00:46:19,943

And churches started to, I mean, Catholic

00:46:19,943 --> 00:46:20,652

church, they

00:46:20,652 --> 00:46:22,529

reestablished Eastern Orthodox

00:46:22,696 --> 00:46:25,574

or they reestablished Muslim community.

00:46:25,866 --> 00:46:28,368

They opened, started

00:46:28,368 --> 00:46:29,495

to open some mosques.

00:46:30,996 --> 00:46:34,583

And evangelical, I mean, Christians, they

00:46:34,583 --> 00:46:36,710

came from the West and

00:46:36,710 --> 00:46:40,589

they were amazed with

00:46:40,589 --> 00:46:45,469

the kind of interest Albanian had.

00:46:46,553 --> 00:46:48,805

Now we understand that that time was

00:46:48,805 --> 00:46:53,060

mixed with, I mean,

00:46:54,228 --> 00:46:55,187

spiritual interest you didn't

00:46:55,312 --> 00:46:58,106

know, you know, it was a spiritual

00:46:58,106 --> 00:46:59,858

interest or just a

00:47:00,484 --> 00:47:05,322

curiosity or a flashy interest about

00:47:06,865 --> 00:47:09,326

things that these people represent.

00:47:09,326 --> 00:47:10,827

They represent wealth, they represent

00:47:10,827 --> 00:47:12,079

materialism, they represent

00:47:12,079 --> 00:47:13,747

things that we don't have, that

00:47:13,747 --> 00:47:17,459

we long for, that we acted all the time

00:47:17,459 --> 00:47:19,878

in order to have just a piece of that.

00:47:20,379 --> 00:47:23,382

So now they are coming and they can be

00:47:23,382 --> 00:47:24,299

the channel of this.

00:47:24,299 --> 00:47:26,176

So to have that.

00:47:26,426 --> 00:47:26,802

Wow.

00:47:26,802 --> 00:47:30,347

So you could have religion almost being a

00:47:30,347 --> 00:47:33,976

carrier for a culture

00:47:33,976 --> 00:47:35,644

that the Albanians maybe

00:47:35,769 --> 00:47:37,479

had wanted, you know, coming out of

00:47:37,479 --> 00:47:38,272

communism and say, we want

00:47:38,272 --> 00:47:39,356

to be more like the West,

00:47:40,148 --> 00:47:41,400

capitalism, this, that, whatever.

00:47:41,775 --> 00:47:42,859

And religion is just one of the many

00:47:42,859 --> 00:47:44,653

pieces that we'll try out.

00:47:44,653 --> 00:47:44,861

Yes.

00:47:45,404 --> 00:47:47,948

Well, I don't blame too much missionaries

00:47:47,948 --> 00:47:50,200

because they could, I

00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:50,867

don't think they could

00:47:50,867 --> 00:47:55,914

understand at that time, but well, if the

00:47:55,914 --> 00:47:57,666

North Korean, when

00:47:57,666 --> 00:47:58,959

North Korean, sorry, will

00:47:58,959 --> 00:48:04,590

be open, I think I know what will happen.

00:48:05,882 --> 00:48:07,259

Probably pretty similar to what

00:48:07,259 --> 00:48:08,510

you experienced then, right?

00:48:08,510 --> 00:48:08,719

Yes.

00:48:09,303 --> 00:48:12,180

Because what happens in there is, if I

00:48:12,180 --> 00:48:13,223

remember correctly, so you

00:48:13,223 --> 00:48:14,600

have Albania gets flooded

00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:16,101

with missionaries,

00:48:16,518 --> 00:48:17,769

religion, things like that.

00:48:18,478 --> 00:48:20,105

But yet if you look at the numbers today,

00:48:20,606 --> 00:48:23,483

Albania is very few

00:48:23,483 --> 00:48:24,943

evangelical Christian,

00:48:25,319 --> 00:48:26,903

well, very little.

00:48:27,362 --> 00:48:27,571

Yes.

00:48:28,071 --> 00:48:30,240

It's actually considered by Joshua

00:48:30,240 --> 00:48:31,992

Project as part of the

00:48:31,992 --> 00:48:33,118

1040 window, as in like one

00:48:33,118 --> 00:48:34,703

of the most unreached countries, you

00:48:34,703 --> 00:48:35,579

know, as far as like,

00:48:35,996 --> 00:48:37,122

they don't have the gospel,

00:48:37,456 --> 00:48:39,374

they're unreached with gospel, even

00:48:39,374 --> 00:48:40,167

though maybe they heard,

00:48:40,167 --> 00:48:41,001

but they're just aren't

00:48:41,001 --> 00:48:41,585

believers there.

00:48:41,877 --> 00:48:42,044

Yes.

00:48:42,210 --> 00:48:44,546

You know, so it's tragic, you know?

00:48:44,713 --> 00:48:47,966

I mean, we're still doing the same thing,

00:48:47,966 --> 00:48:49,760

you know, being

00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:51,345

remembered for unique things

00:48:51,803 --> 00:48:55,515

because I mean, the decline of

00:48:55,515 --> 00:48:58,060

Christianity in the West as

00:48:58,060 --> 00:48:59,269

mainstream, I'm talking about

00:48:59,269 --> 00:49:01,647

mainstream Christianity, there needed

00:49:01,647 --> 00:49:05,609

some time, you know, some hundred years.

00:49:06,526 --> 00:49:10,113

In Albania, the decline of from the, what

00:49:10,113 --> 00:49:13,492

is called a spiritual awakening after the

00:49:13,533 --> 00:49:18,163

communism fell, the decline is within 35

00:49:18,163 --> 00:49:21,917

years, it's a very short period of time.

00:49:21,917 --> 00:49:23,293

It barely made a generation, didn't even

00:49:23,293 --> 00:49:24,586

make a generation before it.

00:49:24,586 --> 00:49:25,504

No, we didn't make the generation.

00:49:25,754 --> 00:49:30,258

We see the children of the first

00:49:30,258 --> 00:49:31,259

generation of Christians,

00:49:31,510 --> 00:49:35,180

they are just, you know, in

00:49:35,180 --> 00:49:36,682

a very bad situation.

00:49:37,641 --> 00:49:40,727

So where does that put you in this story?

00:49:40,977 --> 00:49:43,522

You're living through so many changes,

00:49:43,897 --> 00:49:45,399

coming from a very

00:49:45,399 --> 00:49:48,151

strict communist setting, no

00:49:48,151 --> 00:49:49,695

understanding of Christianity, the Bible,

00:49:49,695 --> 00:49:51,446

God, anything, you

00:49:51,446 --> 00:49:53,615

know, the Berlin Wall falls

00:49:53,740 --> 00:49:55,659

and communism falls and all this happens,

00:49:56,118 --> 00:49:56,535

suddenly you're

00:49:56,535 --> 00:49:58,120

flooded with religion, you

00:49:58,120 --> 00:49:59,913

know, Western music, you're starting to,

00:49:59,913 --> 00:50:00,372

you know, you have a

00:50:00,372 --> 00:50:01,415

band, all this stuff.

00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:03,834

Where does Christianity

00:50:03,834 --> 00:50:04,960

come into the picture for you?

00:50:05,627 --> 00:50:07,212

Like did, were you one of those early

00:50:07,212 --> 00:50:08,213

ones that said, ah, I

00:50:08,213 --> 00:50:09,172

want to be a Christian or

00:50:09,214 --> 00:50:10,215

did it take a lot longer

00:50:10,215 --> 00:50:11,758

for you to come to that point?

00:50:12,050 --> 00:50:20,600

Yeah, no, I didn't come to faith by just,

00:50:21,226 --> 00:50:23,019

you know, choosing

00:50:23,019 --> 00:50:26,148

that was the best life,

00:50:27,190 --> 00:50:27,816

best offer.

00:50:28,692 --> 00:50:32,362

Because yeah, my generation, we always

00:50:32,362 --> 00:50:34,698

say, my friends, it

00:50:34,698 --> 00:50:36,199

seems like we live three or

00:50:36,241 --> 00:50:40,537

four lives because of these radical

00:50:40,537 --> 00:50:43,457

changes until I found the real life.

00:50:43,915 --> 00:50:52,799

But yeah, but the way I was caught by my

00:50:52,799 --> 00:50:55,469

Lord was that through

00:50:55,469 --> 00:50:57,596

the road of desperation.

00:50:58,513 --> 00:51:03,226

Because our band became well known and I

00:51:03,226 --> 00:51:07,981

thought, oh, this is what I should do all

00:51:07,981 --> 00:51:08,648

my life.

00:51:08,648 --> 00:51:12,444

Just create a three minute song and then

00:51:12,444 --> 00:51:14,571

you'll be...people will love you,

00:51:14,571 --> 00:51:16,031

people will clap their hands

00:51:16,031 --> 00:51:18,617

for you and you'll be happy all the time.

00:51:19,326 --> 00:51:20,952

But immediately the second song and the

00:51:20,952 --> 00:51:22,370

third song started to

00:51:22,370 --> 00:51:23,497

become more darker and darker

00:51:23,538 --> 00:51:25,999

and darker because I realized that,

00:51:26,500 --> 00:51:28,168

started to realize even

00:51:28,168 --> 00:51:30,629

me and my friends not only

00:51:30,629 --> 00:51:35,300

me that this was a new type of life, you

00:51:35,300 --> 00:51:38,929

know, was not something

00:51:38,929 --> 00:51:41,139

that fulfilled the soul

00:51:41,139 --> 00:51:44,976

and the life of a human being, you know.

00:51:45,811 --> 00:51:49,439

You see things like I said, you know,

00:51:49,981 --> 00:51:50,774

communists running

00:51:51,191 --> 00:51:56,196

democratization process. That's ironic.

00:51:56,196 --> 00:52:01,618

People started to fight for now,

00:52:01,618 --> 00:52:02,911

individualism started and

00:52:02,911 --> 00:52:04,746

people started to fight for very,

00:52:04,746 --> 00:52:07,916

very little things, you know, killings

00:52:07,916 --> 00:52:11,795

and gangs and all these

00:52:11,795 --> 00:52:12,379

kinds of things and you

00:52:12,420 --> 00:52:13,880

say, oh, well, we

00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:15,257

didn't thought about that.

00:52:16,174 --> 00:52:17,467

What about this now?

00:52:18,093 --> 00:52:21,346

So it's like, it's easy at that point to

00:52:21,346 --> 00:52:22,681

say, oh, communism is the problem.

00:52:22,889 --> 00:52:24,432

And then when communism goes away, it's

00:52:24,432 --> 00:52:25,642

like, wait, there's still problems.

00:52:26,017 --> 00:52:26,226

Yes.

00:52:26,476 --> 00:52:27,060

Was that what happened?

00:52:27,310 --> 00:52:28,061

We thought differently.

00:52:28,061 --> 00:52:30,480

We said, oh, communism was the problem.

00:52:30,939 --> 00:52:32,107

Now that is, and

00:52:32,107 --> 00:52:33,191

you're still disappointed.

00:52:33,608 --> 00:52:37,529

That makes sense because, yeah, humans

00:52:38,154 --> 00:52:39,573

can be pretty mean and,

00:52:39,573 --> 00:52:40,949

you know, pretty evil,

00:52:40,949 --> 00:52:41,157

right?

00:52:41,157 --> 00:52:43,910

So if you have fallen humanity, but there's

00:52:43,910 --> 00:52:44,578

still humans in the

00:52:44,578 --> 00:52:45,495

picture of what you're

00:52:45,495 --> 00:52:45,745

describing.

00:52:46,037 --> 00:52:47,038

And so you're starting to see there's

00:52:47,038 --> 00:52:47,706

some dark, like you're

00:52:47,706 --> 00:52:48,915

saying, the next song becomes

00:52:48,915 --> 00:52:50,333

darker and then darker and darker.

00:52:50,333 --> 00:52:50,542

Yes.

00:52:50,792 --> 00:52:54,129

And I was kind of started to search and

00:52:54,129 --> 00:52:57,966

then my song started to

00:52:57,966 --> 00:53:00,218

became more as a spiritual,

00:53:00,510 --> 00:53:05,515

you know, search for the meaning of life.

00:53:05,932 --> 00:53:07,267

You're starting to look a lot deeper now.

00:53:07,392 --> 00:53:07,851

Yeah.

00:53:08,768 --> 00:53:11,938

I'm talking about, I started to have

00:53:11,938 --> 00:53:14,065

existential questions where

00:53:14,482 --> 00:53:19,613

happiness lies or I started

00:53:19,613 --> 00:53:20,906

to ask about the meaning of life.

00:53:22,699 --> 00:53:24,451

But I didn't have an answer.

00:53:25,660 --> 00:53:27,287

So I was more desperate and desperate

00:53:28,163 --> 00:53:34,085

until one day when I was 27 in 1999.

00:53:36,171 --> 00:53:41,718

I said, God, if you are there, please do

00:53:41,718 --> 00:53:43,178

something for me because I

00:53:43,178 --> 00:53:47,098

am losing my soul, my life,

00:53:47,474 --> 00:53:47,933

everything.

00:53:47,933 --> 00:53:50,018

I don't know what I will do from now on.

00:53:50,602 --> 00:53:55,023

Christians for me were just weak people

00:53:55,023 --> 00:53:59,402

who couldn't handle the life well.

00:54:00,153 --> 00:54:01,196

And that's why they

00:54:01,196 --> 00:54:02,322

were gathered together.

00:54:03,531 --> 00:54:03,865

Yeah.

00:54:04,115 --> 00:54:06,368

Like they used it as some kind of crutch

00:54:06,368 --> 00:54:07,577

in life or something.

00:54:07,911 --> 00:54:15,543

As a defense way of, you know, so they

00:54:15,543 --> 00:54:16,962

were not, they were

00:54:16,962 --> 00:54:18,213

falling stars, you know, they

00:54:18,213 --> 00:54:21,591

were not the ones who wanted to be and

00:54:21,591 --> 00:54:24,135

could be stars and live a happy life.

00:54:24,344 --> 00:54:25,762

So that's why they

00:54:25,762 --> 00:54:26,721

were gathering together.

00:54:27,722 --> 00:54:32,602

But yeah, I was in very, very low moment

00:54:32,602 --> 00:54:34,020

in my life, very desperate.

00:54:34,521 --> 00:54:35,939

Outside everything was okay.

00:54:36,398 --> 00:54:38,066

You know, people were, they didn't

00:54:38,066 --> 00:54:39,192

recognize anything, my

00:54:39,192 --> 00:54:41,236

family and my friends.

00:54:41,820 --> 00:54:45,031

And I acted very well.

00:54:45,448 --> 00:54:47,909

But inside I was totally broken.

00:54:48,201 --> 00:54:50,704

So for the first time I was in my room

00:54:50,704 --> 00:54:54,541

and I asked God, if you

00:54:54,541 --> 00:54:57,002

are there, just show me

00:54:57,210 --> 00:55:00,171

something because you are the last hope.

00:55:01,965 --> 00:55:02,924

I don't know who you are.

00:55:02,924 --> 00:55:03,925

They say you're good.

00:55:04,217 --> 00:55:05,844

Just show me something good.

00:55:07,554 --> 00:55:12,100

And I didn't listen a loud voice or I

00:55:12,100 --> 00:55:12,726

didn't saw a

00:55:12,726 --> 00:55:14,394

flashlight, nothing like this.

00:55:14,853 --> 00:55:19,024

But I, something happened

00:55:19,899 --> 00:55:23,153

which, which wake me up.

00:55:24,404 --> 00:55:28,825

Immediately after I did this profane prayer

00:55:28,825 --> 00:55:30,285

request, I didn't know,

00:55:30,618 --> 00:55:32,579

you know, I just made, but

00:55:32,579 --> 00:55:33,496

it was sincere.

00:55:33,496 --> 00:55:35,123

It was from the bottom of my heart.

00:55:36,666 --> 00:55:38,960

It was like someone else was in the room

00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:40,628

and had the medicine of

00:55:40,628 --> 00:55:43,256

the soul or had the button

00:55:43,256 --> 00:55:45,467

of pushing off and on the soul.

00:55:46,259 --> 00:55:49,888

And then he made possible for me to have

00:55:49,888 --> 00:55:54,434

an immediate peace in my heart, which was

00:55:54,434 --> 00:55:56,978

even weird for me, you know, how can I,

00:55:57,437 --> 00:55:58,521

so I understood that I

00:55:58,521 --> 00:55:59,564

was not the owner of my

00:55:59,564 --> 00:56:00,231

soul, you know.

00:56:01,149 --> 00:56:05,445

And then I, I said, I even tried as a

00:56:05,445 --> 00:56:07,113

perverted human being to,

00:56:08,073 --> 00:56:09,699

to go back because I said

00:56:09,699 --> 00:56:11,409

probably this is, this is not true.

00:56:11,409 --> 00:56:12,535

This is just my mouth.

00:56:13,078 --> 00:56:15,705

The game of my brain is out of [indistinct].

00:56:15,705 --> 00:56:18,750

I couldn't, I couldn't go

00:56:18,750 --> 00:56:19,959

back in that desperation.

00:56:20,752 --> 00:56:22,545

And the more I couldn't, the more I was

00:56:22,545 --> 00:56:23,755

amazed, you know, that

00:56:23,755 --> 00:56:25,507

there is someone else in, in

00:56:25,507 --> 00:56:26,091

this room.

00:56:26,841 --> 00:56:28,426

And finally I surrendered.

00:56:28,676 --> 00:56:30,720

I say, I said, you are here.

00:56:31,429 --> 00:56:32,931

I recognize you are here.

00:56:35,016 --> 00:56:37,435

And I'm, I'm amazed, you know, it was

00:56:37,435 --> 00:56:40,522

like, it was the first

00:56:40,522 --> 00:56:43,274

time, you know, encountering

00:56:44,067 --> 00:56:47,904

God having this, it was kind of a,

00:56:48,822 --> 00:56:51,825

although it is not the

00:56:51,825 --> 00:56:54,536

right depiction, but it was

00:56:54,536 --> 00:56:57,789

kind of opened the channel between earth

00:56:57,789 --> 00:56:59,833

and sky.

00:57:00,125 --> 00:57:02,627

And I was so glad, but at the

00:57:02,627 --> 00:57:05,839

same time something, a

00:57:05,839 --> 00:57:07,549

big problem followed.

00:57:07,966 --> 00:57:10,385

Who's God, you know, because there are a

00:57:10,385 --> 00:57:13,263

lot of, yeah, a lot of

00:57:13,263 --> 00:57:13,847

books, a lot of books,

00:57:13,888 --> 00:57:15,390

a lot of people that say

00:57:15,390 --> 00:57:16,808

God is this, God is that.

00:57:16,933 --> 00:57:18,059

I promised him.

00:57:18,059 --> 00:57:20,436

I said in my room that day, I said, I'm

00:57:20,436 --> 00:57:22,522

going to grab you, you know, your robe.

00:57:22,814 --> 00:57:24,607

That's what I was imagining.

00:57:25,108 --> 00:57:25,733

I go, and I will

00:57:25,733 --> 00:57:27,819

follow you all of my life.

00:57:28,153 --> 00:57:29,737

But then I said, but who you are.

00:57:30,405 --> 00:57:34,325

So I started to seek and to search for

00:57:34,325 --> 00:57:37,370

who's the real God, who

00:57:37,370 --> 00:57:39,539

is the real one that will

00:57:39,539 --> 00:57:41,040

represent Him on earth.

00:57:42,083 --> 00:57:45,211

And as I said, no, I didn't say that, but

00:57:45,211 --> 00:57:50,216

we were a Muslim background.

00:57:51,092 --> 00:57:52,760

Our family has a Muslim background.

00:57:53,469 --> 00:57:54,012

Okay.

00:57:54,137 --> 00:57:54,345

Yeah.

00:57:54,512 --> 00:57:57,432

Although they were atheists.

00:57:58,766 --> 00:58:03,021

Yeah, because they were ashamed of, as I

00:58:03,021 --> 00:58:03,897

said, they were ashamed

00:58:03,897 --> 00:58:05,607

of connection thing where

00:58:05,648 --> 00:58:07,692

they were atheists in the early 90s.

00:58:09,402 --> 00:58:12,947

And the next day, everybody, Albania

00:58:12,947 --> 00:58:14,949

said, oh, what was my father?

00:58:15,533 --> 00:58:16,659

Oh, and then that's what you are.

00:58:17,577 --> 00:58:19,704

I am a Catholic or I am Muslim.

00:58:19,704 --> 00:58:22,290

I am without any particular conviction.

00:58:22,957 --> 00:58:25,001

But then we had Quran there- and nobody

00:58:25,001 --> 00:58:27,295

read it- in our furniture.

00:58:27,545 --> 00:58:31,799

So I took Quran and I read it for one

00:58:31,799 --> 00:58:33,176

year, verse by verse.

00:58:34,427 --> 00:58:34,677

Wow.

00:58:35,428 --> 00:58:36,971

And I ended it.

00:58:37,263 --> 00:58:38,473

My plan was to finish

00:58:38,473 --> 00:58:41,309

Quran and then read the Bible.

00:58:42,685 --> 00:58:44,812

So I was finishing that.

00:58:45,980 --> 00:58:50,526

I was for a theater festival in Cairo, in

00:58:50,526 --> 00:58:54,280

Egypt, in 2001, in September 2001.

00:58:55,490 --> 00:58:57,659

So I was there when the

00:58:59,369 --> 00:59:01,371

Twin Towers crumbled down.

00:59:01,496 --> 00:59:04,123

And then I saw the joy of the people in

00:59:04,123 --> 00:59:05,500

the streets in Cairo.

00:59:07,252 --> 00:59:10,380

And I said, okay, definitely I'm going to

00:59:11,130 --> 00:59:12,382

go back and read the Bible.

00:59:13,466 --> 00:59:15,009

That must have been a

00:59:15,510 --> 00:59:17,011

strange thing to witness.

00:59:17,512 --> 00:59:18,805

Yes, it was.

00:59:20,765 --> 00:59:21,140

Wow.

00:59:21,140 --> 00:59:21,891

So I understood.

00:59:22,850 --> 00:59:23,184

Okay.

00:59:23,768 --> 00:59:24,894

Was that really eye-opening?

00:59:25,853 --> 00:59:26,854

That, I mean, what about

00:59:26,854 --> 00:59:28,606

that really stuck with you?

00:59:28,773 --> 00:59:30,149

While reading Quran, I understood that

00:59:30,149 --> 00:59:31,192

the biggest, I could

00:59:31,192 --> 00:59:32,318

understand that the biggest,

00:59:32,819 --> 00:59:36,030

the point, the big change between, the

00:59:36,030 --> 00:59:36,990

biggest thing that changes

00:59:36,990 --> 00:59:39,742

between two books was Jesus.

00:59:41,160 --> 00:59:41,577

Okay.

00:59:42,704 --> 00:59:44,580

But when I saw the joy of the people

00:59:44,580 --> 00:59:46,791

there and reading about

00:59:49,085 --> 00:59:51,629

God and he's merciful and

00:59:52,505 --> 00:59:53,965

talking about the mercy of God all the

00:59:53,965 --> 00:59:56,926

time, and then see that

00:59:56,926 --> 00:59:58,803

application on the streets

00:59:59,220 --> 01:00:01,055

of Cairo, I said, I'm going to

01:00:01,723 --> 01:00:02,432

definitely, when I go

01:00:02,432 --> 01:00:03,349

back, I'm going to ask Him.

01:00:03,349 --> 01:00:05,643

So I asked the Bible to a friend, to a

01:00:05,643 --> 01:00:07,520

Christian friend, that we

01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:09,814

used to tease him once in

01:00:09,814 --> 01:00:10,148

a while.

01:00:11,274 --> 01:00:13,359

And then I asked him, I said, and he was

01:00:13,359 --> 01:00:15,153

very happy and he gave me

01:00:15,153 --> 01:00:16,612

the Bible, but the Bible

01:00:16,612 --> 01:00:18,698

was much thicker than Quran.

01:00:18,698 --> 01:00:19,532

So I said, oh yeah.

01:00:19,866 --> 01:00:24,495

I'm not going to read this all because I

01:00:24,495 --> 01:00:26,122

will not, my life is not,

01:00:26,914 --> 01:00:27,790

they will not have enough

01:00:27,790 --> 01:00:30,043

days to read all the religious books.

01:00:30,626 --> 01:00:32,670

So I went to the Christian, the

01:00:32,670 --> 01:00:35,673

Christians, and I asked them about Jesus.

01:00:37,133 --> 01:00:39,302

And my question was a classical one about

01:00:39,302 --> 01:00:41,846

Trinity and why say, Son of God.

01:00:43,056 --> 01:00:45,183

But they shared the gospel with me.

01:00:46,225 --> 01:00:49,062

I was one year seeking for

01:00:49,062 --> 01:00:51,105

the truth, for the true God.

01:00:51,898 --> 01:00:58,780

When I listened and I heard the gospel, I

01:00:58,780 --> 01:01:00,323

immediately knew who

01:01:00,323 --> 01:01:03,326

was at that day in my

01:01:03,326 --> 01:01:03,826

room.

01:01:05,036 --> 01:01:10,833

Because when I heard about the cross, the

01:01:10,833 --> 01:01:11,959

work on the cross and

01:01:11,959 --> 01:01:15,505

why he did that, I said

01:01:15,588 --> 01:01:19,634

two things, such love no one can have

01:01:19,634 --> 01:01:22,136

than God, other than God.

01:01:22,929 --> 01:01:26,057

And the one that did this

01:01:26,057 --> 01:01:28,684

must be only God, no one else.

01:01:30,228 --> 01:01:32,855

So I said to them, what

01:01:32,855 --> 01:01:34,899

should I do if I accept Jesus?

01:01:35,108 --> 01:01:37,235

They said, oh, you should do nothing,

01:01:37,485 --> 01:01:38,444

which is another story.

01:01:41,489 --> 01:01:43,991

For me, nothing at that time didn't mean

01:01:43,991 --> 01:01:46,077

that, oh, I'm just

01:01:46,077 --> 01:01:47,662

taking a ticket to heaven.

01:01:48,162 --> 01:01:51,165

I was so grateful to that, that nothing

01:01:51,165 --> 01:01:53,459

for me meant, I

01:01:53,459 --> 01:01:56,212

understood that he didn't make

01:01:56,212 --> 01:01:58,339

any condition to jump on his boat.

01:01:59,424 --> 01:02:01,509

But another story, how

01:02:01,509 --> 01:02:05,221

you continue that journey.

01:02:05,221 --> 01:02:10,351

But I was so amazed by his love.

01:02:11,310 --> 01:02:12,728

It was totally new to

01:02:12,728 --> 01:02:14,480

me, never heard about that.

01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:17,316

Although I saw some movies, I saw Jesus,

01:02:17,316 --> 01:02:19,735

he was probably the

01:02:19,735 --> 01:02:22,780

greatest hero of humanity.

01:02:23,072 --> 01:02:25,032

But I didn't understand

01:02:25,032 --> 01:02:27,493

what he did and why he did.

01:02:28,661 --> 01:02:30,663

And then I understood my...

01:02:30,913 --> 01:02:31,706

I was okay.

01:02:31,789 --> 01:02:34,000

It was one year that I was okay with

01:02:34,000 --> 01:02:35,668

accepting being a sinful

01:02:35,668 --> 01:02:37,962

creature, having mistakes.

01:02:38,337 --> 01:02:40,089

Now my idea was how to

01:02:40,089 --> 01:02:43,843

relate to the real God.

01:02:46,471 --> 01:02:48,806

And then I gave my life to him, I said,

01:02:49,223 --> 01:02:50,683

oh, now I know whose

01:02:50,683 --> 01:02:53,895

name, what is your name?

01:02:54,604 --> 01:02:57,190

That you came one year before in my room,

01:02:57,440 --> 01:02:59,066

you're Jesus, so I'm

01:02:59,066 --> 01:03:01,027

going to follow you for

01:03:01,068 --> 01:03:02,195

the rest of my day.

01:03:02,528 --> 01:03:06,866

So that's how I started my journey.

01:03:08,493 --> 01:03:13,998

And me, my girlfriend at that time, which

01:03:13,998 --> 01:03:17,376

is my wife today, our

01:03:17,376 --> 01:03:18,544

romantic conversation

01:03:18,711 --> 01:03:21,506

during the whole year turned into a

01:03:21,506 --> 01:03:22,840

theological conversation.

01:03:24,342 --> 01:03:25,968

But she started to

01:03:25,968 --> 01:03:28,429

have questions about...

01:03:29,305 --> 01:03:33,017

She came from a different road to the

01:03:33,017 --> 01:03:36,771

same conclusion and then same decision.

01:03:37,438 --> 01:03:40,149

And then we started to frequent a

01:03:40,149 --> 01:03:43,694

Brethren Church in Tirana.

01:03:46,280 --> 01:03:49,158

And it was good, it was very good in the

01:03:49,158 --> 01:03:51,452

beginning because they were

01:03:51,452 --> 01:03:54,288

emphasizing the importance

01:03:54,288 --> 01:03:58,417

of the Word of God and to understand

01:03:58,417 --> 01:04:02,463

that, to walk your life after the Word.

01:04:03,381 --> 01:04:08,344

And they were at that time, they were

01:04:08,344 --> 01:04:11,389

doing some things very

01:04:11,389 --> 01:04:16,394

differently from other churches

01:04:16,394 --> 01:04:16,852

around.

01:04:18,604 --> 01:04:21,899

And it seemed to me that, oh, they're

01:04:21,899 --> 01:04:25,111

doing what God is commanding in His Word.

01:04:26,279 --> 01:04:27,071

So we are safe.

01:04:27,989 --> 01:04:31,242

We're in a safe boat here.

01:04:32,743 --> 01:04:34,161

Yeah, but the boat started to

01:04:34,161 --> 01:04:37,081

have holes during the church.

01:04:39,000 --> 01:04:41,794

When you first get that Bible, had you

01:04:41,794 --> 01:04:43,254

read much of it before

01:04:43,254 --> 01:04:44,005

you became a Christian?

01:04:44,380 --> 01:04:46,632

How much had you read at that point?

01:04:47,174 --> 01:04:49,969

Yeah, I read Genesis, it was the same.

01:04:50,469 --> 01:04:52,096

I mean, not all the same, but it was

01:04:52,096 --> 01:04:54,348

things that I already read in Quran.

01:04:55,600 --> 01:04:58,936

I read some stories

01:04:58,936 --> 01:05:02,857

from the Gospel of John.

01:05:04,609 --> 01:05:10,615

But it was not that I went there because

01:05:10,615 --> 01:05:12,366

I had questions from the Bible.

01:05:13,242 --> 01:05:15,536

My question was clear in my mind, just

01:05:15,536 --> 01:05:18,748

tell me about Jesus.

01:05:19,415 --> 01:05:22,001

Yeah, you were going straight, it was

01:05:22,001 --> 01:05:22,627

like you're trying to go

01:05:22,627 --> 01:05:23,711

straight to the core of

01:05:23,836 --> 01:05:25,921

this challenge and figure

01:05:25,921 --> 01:05:27,006

out what do I do with...

01:05:27,548 --> 01:05:28,382

Yes, that's so interesting.

01:05:28,841 --> 01:05:29,884

I forgot Trinity, when they

01:05:29,884 --> 01:05:30,968

shared the Gospel with me.

01:05:31,427 --> 01:05:32,345

I totally forgot Trinity.

01:05:32,637 --> 01:05:34,221

Was the Trinity an issue for you

01:05:34,221 --> 01:05:35,640

originally, by the way?

01:05:35,640 --> 01:05:35,931

No.

01:05:36,974 --> 01:05:38,643

That can be a challenge for some people.

01:05:38,893 --> 01:05:40,603

Yes, yes, yes.

01:05:41,062 --> 01:05:43,773

I forgot it because I was amazed.

01:05:44,357 --> 01:05:49,779

I realized, "Oh, I made the connection of

01:05:49,779 --> 01:05:52,323

what happened during

01:05:52,323 --> 01:05:55,242

that day with the work

01:05:55,242 --> 01:05:56,869

of Jesus and the life of

01:05:56,869 --> 01:05:58,371

Jesus and who Jesus is."

01:05:59,080 --> 01:06:01,374

So I was so amazed about that, that I

01:06:01,374 --> 01:06:03,793

forgot, you know, theological.

01:06:05,044 --> 01:06:06,837

But I think that's an important point,

01:06:06,837 --> 01:06:07,922

that's why I wanted to come back to it.

01:06:08,172 --> 01:06:10,883

Because it seems to me, at the core of

01:06:10,883 --> 01:06:12,176

all this, is this deep

01:06:12,176 --> 01:06:13,386

question of, "Okay, I'm

01:06:13,678 --> 01:06:15,680

trying to figure out essentially, you

01:06:15,680 --> 01:06:16,597

know, meaning of life,

01:06:16,597 --> 01:06:17,682

purpose, that kind of thing,

01:06:17,682 --> 01:06:20,810

but also who is Jesus and trying to

01:06:20,810 --> 01:06:21,644

answer that question."

01:06:22,645 --> 01:06:25,147

And when I have these conversations with

01:06:25,147 --> 01:06:27,400

people, it seems like

01:06:27,400 --> 01:06:29,819

it's usually not some grand

01:06:29,819 --> 01:06:31,946

theological explanation of the Trinity or

01:06:31,946 --> 01:06:34,323

the perfect logic and rationale of here's

01:06:34,323 --> 01:06:35,449

why God is real.

01:06:35,616 --> 01:06:36,784

Here's why you must believe the Bible

01:06:36,784 --> 01:06:37,910

because all these facts,

01:06:38,119 --> 01:06:40,162

you know, it seems like it

01:06:40,204 --> 01:06:41,831

more comes back to that question of like

01:06:41,831 --> 01:06:42,415

when you go to your

01:06:42,415 --> 01:06:44,542

friends, "Who's Jesus telling

01:06:44,542 --> 01:06:45,209

you about this?

01:06:45,209 --> 01:06:46,627

And I'm going to start

01:06:46,627 --> 01:06:47,545

thinking about this."

01:06:47,545 --> 01:06:48,796

You know, and we're really digging into

01:06:48,796 --> 01:06:50,131

who is Jesus and what am

01:06:50,131 --> 01:06:51,465

I going to do about it,

01:06:51,632 --> 01:06:51,841

essentially.

01:06:52,758 --> 01:06:53,843

I don't know, respond to that.

01:06:54,093 --> 01:06:54,885

Does that connect?

01:06:55,261 --> 01:06:59,557

Well, it's when we see Philip, the

01:06:59,557 --> 01:07:04,687

evangelist approaching to the eunich.

01:07:05,604 --> 01:07:10,025

And there's a

01:07:10,025 --> 01:07:12,153

combination of some elements.

01:07:13,070 --> 01:07:15,948

You need to have someone who is seeking.

01:07:16,699 --> 01:07:21,704

I never, in my experience at least, I

01:07:21,704 --> 01:07:24,999

never witnessed a moment

01:07:24,999 --> 01:07:27,042

when someone was not searching

01:07:27,084 --> 01:07:29,837

for God, not searching for reality.

01:07:30,880 --> 01:07:33,090

And then you go and share the gospel with

01:07:33,090 --> 01:07:34,800

him or with her and they say, "Oh!"

01:07:35,426 --> 01:07:37,011

And they immediately convert it.

01:07:37,011 --> 01:07:37,219

No.

01:07:37,928 --> 01:07:41,390

There must be someone who is a realize

01:07:41,390 --> 01:07:46,979

need for the truth and

01:07:46,979 --> 01:07:52,067

someone who will show

01:07:53,861 --> 01:07:58,324

Jesus by explaining things to

01:07:58,324 --> 01:08:01,577

their mind, but also making...

01:08:02,578 --> 01:08:04,580

And also these two elements must be also

01:08:04,580 --> 01:08:07,458

connected to the element of

01:08:07,458 --> 01:08:09,752

revelation, I think, revelation

01:08:10,044 --> 01:08:18,761

of what God is doing in the person who is

01:08:18,761 --> 01:08:19,720

going to be converted.

01:08:21,555 --> 01:08:23,557

So there are three, these three elements.

01:08:24,141 --> 01:08:30,231

So revelation of the presence of God in

01:08:30,231 --> 01:08:32,525

some way, the way he knows

01:08:32,525 --> 01:08:33,859

how he does these things.

01:08:34,693 --> 01:08:38,197

And the person who is interested and then

01:08:38,197 --> 01:08:40,741

the messenger that

01:08:40,741 --> 01:08:42,535

goes there and does the

01:08:42,993 --> 01:08:45,621

final work.

01:08:46,539 --> 01:08:52,962

So sometimes the messenger is just...

01:08:54,672 --> 01:08:57,341

Sometimes even he's not interested so

01:08:57,341 --> 01:08:59,343

much in that, just he's

01:08:59,343 --> 01:09:02,221

doing his job, and it works.

01:09:02,972 --> 01:09:03,305

Yeah.

01:09:03,639 --> 01:09:03,848

Okay.

01:09:04,056 --> 01:09:07,268

I see that and I think that's a lesson

01:09:07,268 --> 01:09:08,936

though for all of us to-

01:09:09,687 --> 01:09:11,480

Are we willing to be that messenger?

01:09:11,856 --> 01:09:12,064

Yeah.

01:09:12,857 --> 01:09:16,485

Or to carry the message to those that, in

01:09:16,485 --> 01:09:17,319

your case, you had

01:09:17,319 --> 01:09:18,571

questions, you're like,

01:09:18,571 --> 01:09:19,780

"I'm not sure what to do about this."

01:09:19,780 --> 01:09:22,491

But you needed that person to say, "Let

01:09:22,491 --> 01:09:23,617

me get you started on that journey."

01:09:24,034 --> 01:09:26,787

Or if that makes sense, to help talk

01:09:26,787 --> 01:09:27,621

through those questions.

01:09:28,372 --> 01:09:31,750

And sometimes the messenger is really

01:09:32,209 --> 01:09:34,670

zealous and willing to do that.

01:09:36,380 --> 01:09:41,010

I have tested, I've proven this or I have

01:09:41,010 --> 01:09:44,096

experienced this in my life, but there is

01:09:44,096 --> 01:09:47,892

no interest on the person's side.

01:09:50,811 --> 01:09:54,815

So it doesn't work and this must not be a

01:09:54,815 --> 01:09:58,402

discouragment for us because there must

01:09:58,819 --> 01:10:01,739

be different ingredients that must be

01:10:01,739 --> 01:10:03,198

combined in order for them

01:10:03,198 --> 01:10:05,993

to move from death to life

01:10:06,035 --> 01:10:07,703

or darkness to light.

01:10:09,330 --> 01:10:10,831

It's not a spiritual…

01:10:11,332 --> 01:10:12,917

It's not a recipe that if you do this

01:10:12,917 --> 01:10:13,918

same thing every time,

01:10:13,918 --> 01:10:14,710

it'll work for everybody.

01:10:15,586 --> 01:10:17,129

Everybody's different, yeah.

01:10:18,213 --> 01:10:23,010

So let's jump to more present day.

01:10:23,510 --> 01:10:25,471

Can you tell me about the church

01:10:25,471 --> 01:10:26,555

community you're part of

01:10:26,555 --> 01:10:28,057

today and the church in Albania?

01:10:28,349 --> 01:10:31,560

We had said earlier how there's very

01:10:31,560 --> 01:10:32,770

little Christian

01:10:32,770 --> 01:10:35,522

presence in Albania today that's

01:10:35,773 --> 01:10:36,774

almost like this sharp…

01:10:36,774 --> 01:10:39,151

You said 35 years, how it's just sharp

01:10:39,151 --> 01:10:41,028

cliff almost of decline

01:10:41,028 --> 01:10:42,613

for Christianity in your

01:10:42,613 --> 01:10:42,905

country.

01:10:44,198 --> 01:10:45,324

Yeah, bring us up to today.

01:10:46,116 --> 01:10:49,912

Well, in the beginning I was very, very

01:10:49,912 --> 01:10:56,961

optimistic and I was happy to find

01:10:56,961 --> 01:10:57,920

brothers and sisters

01:10:57,920 --> 01:10:58,796

in every city.

01:11:00,255 --> 01:11:03,801

I was willing to testify many of the

01:11:03,801 --> 01:11:06,303

churches or if I can say most of the

01:11:06,303 --> 01:11:07,262

evangelical churches

01:11:07,846 --> 01:11:10,349

asked me to go and share my testimony

01:11:10,349 --> 01:11:12,559

because I was at that time

01:11:13,519 --> 01:11:15,813

somehow well-known person.

01:11:16,063 --> 01:11:18,440

Is that through your music and things

01:11:18,440 --> 01:11:19,066

like you're part of?

01:11:19,066 --> 01:11:20,901

Yeah, through music we

01:11:20,901 --> 01:11:23,320

became a well-known band.

01:11:25,322 --> 01:11:26,907

So you're telling me you're famous?

01:11:27,950 --> 01:11:29,410

I was kind of famous.

01:11:29,952 --> 01:11:30,661

How about that?

01:11:31,829 --> 01:11:34,164

That's a unique part

01:11:34,164 --> 01:11:34,999

of your life I guess.

01:11:35,457 --> 01:11:37,292

I can see what's happening here.

01:11:37,292 --> 01:11:39,086

So if you're a well-known face and then

01:11:39,086 --> 01:11:39,503

you become a

01:11:39,503 --> 01:11:41,463

Christian, yeah, that's true.

01:11:41,463 --> 01:11:42,423

They're probably asking you to come share

01:11:42,423 --> 01:11:43,382

your story, your testimony.

01:11:43,799 --> 01:11:45,676

And I was glad to do that.

01:11:45,676 --> 01:11:46,885

I was willing to do that.

01:11:47,469 --> 01:11:52,016

I thought it was my calling to do that.

01:11:52,349 --> 01:11:55,019

And then after that share, give my

01:11:55,019 --> 01:11:56,186

testimony or share the gospel.

01:11:59,481 --> 01:12:04,111

I started to realize that Christians and

01:12:04,111 --> 01:12:05,654

churches and pastors and

01:12:05,654 --> 01:12:07,823

preachers were saying they

01:12:07,823 --> 01:12:10,492

were not living these things.

01:12:11,035 --> 01:12:12,661

They were more and more compromising

01:12:12,661 --> 01:12:18,625

their truth when they were

01:12:18,625 --> 01:12:21,003

speaking during the years.

01:12:21,920 --> 01:12:23,422

And it was obvious

01:12:23,422 --> 01:12:25,591

why was happening this.

01:12:26,800 --> 01:12:33,265

So the Western mentality of capitalistic

01:12:33,265 --> 01:12:36,602

ideal of materialism

01:12:36,602 --> 01:12:40,230

driven by a materialistic

01:12:42,107 --> 01:12:45,652

perspective entered in Albania with

01:12:45,652 --> 01:12:47,780

missionaries in the early 90s.

01:12:48,739 --> 01:12:52,201

So the Albanians now, our people wanted

01:12:52,201 --> 01:12:54,286

to be more wealthy and

01:12:54,286 --> 01:12:55,120

more and more and more.

01:12:56,955 --> 01:13:03,837

And then their lifestyle started to be

01:13:05,714 --> 01:13:07,591

like the Western life.

01:13:08,008 --> 01:13:15,682

So I thought that would, with the coming

01:13:15,682 --> 01:13:19,978

of the years, that would be more and more

01:13:19,978 --> 01:13:23,565

distinction between church and the

01:13:23,565 --> 01:13:25,192

nonbelievers in Albania.

01:13:25,651 --> 01:13:26,485

But it didn't happen.

01:13:27,611 --> 01:13:31,490

In fact, instead, the church was adapting

01:13:31,490 --> 01:13:34,159

the cultural element

01:13:34,159 --> 01:13:40,124

of the world other than

01:13:41,041 --> 01:13:47,548

reflecting a light that is obedient to a

01:13:47,548 --> 01:13:50,175

king who gave his all.

01:13:50,509 --> 01:13:53,053

And he died poor and he

01:13:53,053 --> 01:13:55,889

was not at all aggressive.

01:13:56,765 --> 01:14:00,894

And his mission was totally different in

01:14:00,894 --> 01:14:02,062

this life than all of

01:14:02,062 --> 01:14:03,564

the rest of the world.