Welcome to Headroom, where we discuss all things essential to mental health and well being. I'm your host, Jim Owens, a licensed professional counselor at Lansing Community College. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that while this podcast does not constitute psychotherapy, it does introduce you to some phenomenal people who have incredible ideas for you and your life. So having said that, let's get into the Headroom and begin today's conversation with Angela Mathews, the chair of the board of the trustees at Lansing Community College. Thanks for coming on.

Hello there. I'm gonna call you Professor Owens, and I'll get to the Jeff part later, but thank you for having me. I totally appreciate it.

No, I'm glad you're here. And so you've already disclosed you know me as Professor. So that was. Our relationship goes back a little ways to when you were in school.

Yes.

And I said, you can call me Jim. And so. No, you can call me Professor Owens. That's fine.

Okay, awesome.

So tell us a little bit about yourself. I mean, I think people in the community probably know a little bit about you, but what do you want people to know about you if they said, hey, have you ever met Angela? Who is that?

Angela is a community activist, servant leader to her heart. I'm always attending events. I always use my voice and my platform for those who may be less fortunate or may not think that they have a voice. So I've always done it since I was, you know, knee high, basically all through elementary, middle, and high school. I hail from Muskegon Heights, Michigan. Came here in 1984. Yes, I'm disclosing my age, but that's okay.

That's fine.

And so. And then in coming, you know, I came on a scholarship. However, with what we have now, like academic advisors and success coaches, I did not have that. So I struggled a lot, and I had to find my own way. We had counselors. It just wasn't what it is today. And so that was hard for me. I graduated with an associates in Human services. I changed my major a few times, and some students are like, oh, my goodness, I don't know what I want to do. That's okay. It's okay that you don't know. Just come on in, get registered, get into school, and you'll find your way.

Don't you think you get exposed to so many more ideas about what you could do with your life once you're in class, not only from your teachers and the subjects, but you're now surrounded by all these students from wildly different backgrounds? Not Everybody who went to school with you was from the Heights, Muskegon Heights. I'm from West Michigan, so I know we called it the Heights. Come on. You know. And Right. So you're in class with people from all different walks of life. Is that where you started to figure out what your niche might be? Although you say from a little kid, you were political, you were speaking out for those who didn't have a voice.

Well, let me tell you. Here's the funny part. I thought that I was going to be a business owner and a psychologist. Oh. Though that. That was the goal. Until with regards to the psychologist, I figured that I had to go to school for, like, eight years. And back then, eight years was a long time. So I was like, no, we're not gonna do that. And so then I switched it. But I had to follow my heart's passion, which was in the social work arena. And so that was counseling and communication.

Yeah. You found a vocation deep inside your heart from a very young age, and you found a way to use education to get you prepared to enter that. That kind of position in society. I mean, I know you wear several different hats and have in different places, and you can talk about those. So tell us a little bit about. Was going to college a foregone conclusion for your family? Did they expect you to go?

Yes.

Oh, really?

Absolutely. The funny part is that I graduated on a Friday.

Okay.

On a Monday. I was kind of chilling on the couch, you know, in the den area of our home, and my mom walked through the door and said, what are you doing? And I said, well, I'm just kind of relaxing. She said, no. She said, you either have to go to school or you need to get a job. So I got a job that Friday at Burger King. So that was like, my first job. And then I also enrolled in college in that winter because I graduated in May. So then that January, February, I went to Muskegon Community College.

Yeah. So. Wow. And was that a little bit of a surprise? Like, there hadn't been a lot of discussion before that. Hey, where are you going to college? You're a senior. This was a little sprung on you, I think. Oh, yeah.

It was like you're going to do one or the other or both. There is no downtime. I had none.

Yeah. Wow, that's interesting. So what is something. And I think there's something for everybody. Maybe there's one or two for you. For me, there's several that almost stopped you from graduating. And you've graduated a couple of times. At least. So you could tell us from any of those.

The first time, what almost stopped me was that I got discouraged because I was doing it by my. I felt I was by myself. And so. But I couldn't let my family down. So that was a struggling part. I did have a scholarship. Right. Scholarship was from a wealthy family that was in the, you know, Muskegon. Muskegon Heights area. However, the scholarship was taken away from me because my grades were not up to par and I knew I could do better. And my mom was so. She was disappointed. So then when the scholarship got taken away, I really had to press in.

Yeah.

And, you know, do the learning and go to class and get the homework turned in and all of that, because nobody was here to tell you to do that. Hey, you need to do this and that. So. But I pushed through and got the associates in Human Services. However, after I didn't go back to school, I was going to Spring Arbor and I got into my own business, my promotional company. And so I was riding high on that. And so did that for about 10 years. And then. So after 26 years, years, I came back to school in 2017 because I wanted my bachelor's. However, some of the courses, the credits had changed, so I almost had to go and start all over again. The three plus one. Right. And that's why I met Professor Orange. But anyway, so. But really, now, being older, more mature, more settled and structured, I knew what I had to do.

Yeah.

So I just dug deep in there, my heels in, and went to my classes. I had an academic, whole success coach. I had to turn my homework in. There was no preferential treatment, so to speak, Just because I was a trustee on the board of LCC, I had to go through the entire student experience. And I wanted to, but I felt when I was in classes, I really felt intimidated by the students because they are so bright and they're so. They're in this technological age and everything is fast. And I know everything fast is not always good. And I didn't know if the students would accept me. You know, I really didn't. I kind of sort of look like them because they said that I have a youthful presence. But when I began to speak and talk, you could tell that I was a little bit seasoned. However, they did embrace me. I respected them. They respected me. I knew when to draw back and let the students take the lead and just be kind of like more of a counselor, so to speak.

You know, like a guide on the side.

Yes, like a guide on the side. And so that worked out well and they were glad I was in their groups and, you know, it worked out pretty good.

Did it require some patience to sit through because you have life experience. Okay, yeah.

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I'm like, you know. Cause students will. The patience level isn't quite there.

Oh, it's not there yet. We're working on that.

But like I said, we develop a well rounded respect for each other. And so I had to realize that this technological age is where they are. They've got so much at their hands and they are quick with it. I'm the one who was antiquated, so to speak.

Yeah, yeah.

So I had to step my game up.

And you were worried. I'll use the word word. You were worried about fitting in, something a lot of people can relate to. I know when I see older students walking around on campus and they'll say something or they'll have that look and we'll get to talking and they'll say, like, I haven't been to school for 20 years. And I real quick tell them, well, I think the average age at LCC is about 28. And they say, well, that's still a kid. You know, I'm like, well, it's not 18. You know, I want them to feel welcome. Like we have a wide variety of students from all kinds of backgrounds here and stuff like that.

And that's the great thing about LCC. You do. You seriously do. So adult learners, high schoolers coming into post secondary education, those who are here may have left for a little bit, come back. So, yeah, we do.

Yeah. So I'm curious how you pushed through. What motivated you as an adult to go back to college? And when you were here, it was not easy academically. I know it was difficult because it is for everybody. And then socially, I think that's one where people underestimate it a little bit. Socially, that's what you were saying, like, how did you push through that? Like, no, I just gotta keep going there.

Well, I wanted the degree for me.

Okay.

And I wanted to come back to school because I wanted my bachelor's. That's something I've always wanted.

Personal goal.

And so when I was talking with my academic advisors from here and Sienna Heights, you know, I knew that I had to be transparent and I had to be vulnerable in order to get the help that I needed and to get the support that I needed. So I had support from my family, I had support from my friends, I had my support from my. My church family. So I had a Tribe, basically around me. So when things got a little bit tight, I could call somebody and be myself and say, hey, I need to talk. Yeah, you know, can you help me with this? Because studies, you know, things have changed. Things are, you know, a little bit different. We have what's called the open ended resources. Right, Right. I'm used to a book, a physical book. So when I had to take courses that had that kind of information, I had to connect to. It was. It was.

It was difficult.

It's different, you know. And so I stayed up at nights cramming.

Mm.

Okay. Because I had to go to work. I had my board duties, my church duties, my community duties. So I stayed up to 2 and 3 o'. Clock. I was cramming, you know, getting tests done and homework done. Didn't always get the A like I wanted to.

Okay.

So. Yeah, that whole experience.

Wow.

Yeah.

I think that's important for people to hear that you have to persevere and that you. You showed up here with, as you say, a tribe behind you, like a support group behind you, but you also had to go and look for one when you got in school. And like you said, that required vulnerability for you to approach people and say, you know what? I don't really know what I'm doing. And I imagine there's a little script going in your head, like there is in mind sometimes, like, I don't know what I'm doing and I should know what I'm doing. And I feel a little embarrassed about this. I'm gonna have to go ask for help. Did you have that little voice in there sometimes?

Oh, yeah. And I had to go ask, you know, one of my, my classmates, because again, we're in these different eras. I know what I know coming from my time in growing up, and I know how to make technology work for me. However, there was times when my working of it was just slow. And so I had to understand that if someone was seemingly a little bit impatient with me, that was okay because we were kind of, you know, on two different flowchart, so to speak. They were a little bit ahead of me. However, you know, just having the conversations and talking made it made all the difference.

I've heard from several guests on the show already. And so people who have listened to some of the previous episodes coming up to this have heard a lot of people sit in your chair saying, or in the seat you're sitting in. Now, social connection is really, really, really important for being successful in college, let alone mental health. Just if you want to be Successful in college, you need to rely on people to help you.

So I gotta tell this story. Okay, Please, because it was in your class.

Okay.

So you would. You would. You would have us to get in these groups, and we would do role plays, and role plays are great. However, my first role play, I was sitting there like, okay, do I understand the context of what he wants me to do? I know. I know how to do this. But putting it in the structure of academia, that was my struggle. I mean, I've been a counselor all my life. But to take the verbiage, you know, and put it into the framework that we're supposed to be an educated.

There was this formula that.

That was. That was difficult. So. But the young ladies that I was, I remember, you know, being in that circle, and they were just, you know, they had it. Just had it, really. And I'm like, oh, my goodness. So they let me muddle my way through, but in the end, we got done. You know, the assignment that you want.

Yeah, no, I feel like it is definitely. People bring a lot of skills to the classroom that are applicable, like your counseling skills. And then when you show up to a class like that. This is where I was asking you about patients earlier, because I know you know how to counsel people. And I've been. I've been like, why don't you formalize this a little more while I got you on the air? You could get a master's in counseling. You know, there's a shortage of mental health therapists out there, but to have to adjust and play by the game a little bit, play the rules a little bit and squeeze, what is it, a round peg into a square hole for a second? Yes, yes, something like that. So what. What else about mental health? Let's turn the page now and talk a little bit more specifically about mental health, emotional health. Is that something you had to take care of for yourself when you were in school?

When. I'll tell you this, first of all, there's this wording of functionally dysfunctional. It is a. It is something that. When I, you know, was in school first time back in the 80s, that we heard that. We heard bedrock. You know, what's the bedrock? What's the poisonous pedagogy? You know those terms? We don't use those terms as much anymore, but they're still relevant. And so in coming back with regards to mental health, some of those terms start to come back. Functionally dysfunctional. Pandemic was horrible on everybody, and we are still feeling the effects of it. We talked about trauma a lot. And some of us are low grade depression.

Yes. Who?

Me?

Yeah.

Right, me, depressed.

Right.

Ms. Cherry Butterfly. Social butterfly. But yeah, that happened. And I had to, you know, know when that trigger was coming.

Yeah.

My anxiety levels rose. So now I have to pay attention that when my anxiety is rising, what is my body telling me I have to pay attention to that? And so then I have to do what I need to do to bring that anxiety level down because that's real. You can't pretend anymore.

Anymore. Anymore. We all have practiced pretending.

Thought we knew, but we didn't. And so when my mental situations come about, like my anxiety, when it rises, what I have to do, I honestly take deep breaths and I remove myself from the space and get quiet so that I can gather myself, get some clarity, you know, take a deep breath, ask myself, yeah, what's going on? Why do you feel this way? What's happening? You know, and then come back, you know, into the social setting and there's nothing wrong with self care. There's nothing wrong with doing that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think you're pointing out a couple things that I'm aware of. One, acknowledging that you're having this experience which many of us, and I speak from experience. Oh, I'm starting to feel a little anxious. What can I do to get rid of that feeling real quick right now as opposed to. Or let's pretend it's not really happening. Maybe it's something I ate earlier or who knows, you know, we just come up with these little, I don't want to experience this. I don't want to feel like this. And like you said, the low grade depression or just various terms we come up with to minimize. This might have been a term we talked about in class. We kind of minimize our feelings or minimize our state or experience. And what you're saying is like, that's probably not a good idea because you were admitting you pretended that you weren't having those experiences earlier in life when you were, when you experienced anxiety or depression or whatever, to whatever degree, little or big. And let's pretend we don't have that experience right now. Right.

Because you're not. Because you know, and let me just be really, really transparent. In the black community and the culture, black culture, when we talk about counseling, that's not talked about. If you talk about going to see a sex a therapist, people, then you get labeled as crazy.

Yeah.

And so that's not a place of support that I've come from. So what you have to do is they'll Say, oh, get yourself together. You know, you can handle it. There's nothing wrong. What's the ones. Oh, I hate this one. Suck it up. Oh, yeah, that is something that is not good. You know, you, you, you should allow a person to have a conversation, have the say, this is how I'm feeling. So I come from that era. Does it make you stronger? Yes. But does it later on in life, does it show up? Yes, it shows up. You know, it helped to build who I am. It helped to, you know, help me with character and integrity and trustworthiness and how to handle stress, how to handle conflict.

Yeah.

You know, what do you do?

Yeah.

What's the proper way to. To coordinate a win win situation? Because you don't have to have win losses all the time. There can be a win win. But until a person is strong enough to be their authentic self and who they are is, you have a little bit of a difficulty getting there with the win win.

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Thank you for being transparent about that. Because when we look at the different cultures that we have in the United States, and as you point out, black Americans, this is going to therapy is not a thing that's talked about or acknowledged. And again, it's the same in other cultures. And really in America in general, we're still working on the normalization of just talking about how we're feeling, talking about the fact that we do experience different mental states because of the pressure cooker we put ourselves into sometimes. And it's just, it's not. We don't have to take it personal. Like I always tell students, like, going to college is hard. It's harder than not now, long term, this is better for you. I think that's why I'm here, why you're here. I think this is going to change the world.

Yes.

But, yeah, you have to acknowledge this and take some courage. Going back to what you were saying earlier, being vulnerable and talking about, like, no, this is what I'm experiencing and I want to reach out and talk to somebody about it, which I'm assuming you did that with coaches and advisors

and, oh, I, you know, my friends and my family, people, people allow me to do that. I'll call and I'll say, hey, I don't want to hear about this and that I need to talk this out. I'm feeling some type of way. I can't put my finger on it, so I need to bounce this off. And so then they, you know, we talk it through. And then sometimes it is something, sometimes it's just Maybe me just creating something at times, but I just think that you need those outlets. Another outlet is I say, okay, I got to get the stress off of me. So I go walking. I power walk.

Let's talk about it. Because, yeah, we are biological. We're not just psychological. We have bodies, everyone. They're not just there to get us to class.

Right.

They're part of what accounts for our experience. So, yeah, you jump. Jump into something physical to deal with the mental.

Yes.

Right.

So when I do that, it just, you know, for me, it's a release. You have to find an outlet, whether it's walking, bicycling, dancing, singing, whatever the outlet is, that is positive and that can yield you those results that. That good feeling that, okay, this is all off of me. This is out of me. Now I can function. So I think exercise is vitally important. Getting good rest is very important. If you have to take a nap, I call it a cat nap. Like 20 minutes. You got to power down and allow your body and your mind and everything to come back into oneness and connection, because you'll run yourself down and the stress will just. Stress is a silent killer.

Yeah, it is.

And you don't want to put yourself in that particular situation.

Yeah, yeah. I think we see it a lot, and I appreciate you sharing that about. Sometimes I have a phrase that I say to students. You got to get out of your head and get into your body because you're just spending too much time in your head. You know? And a lot of this is people just perseverating on a thought or a worry, just rolling it around in their head over and over and over again, which we all do. And that's part of how we problem solve. But there's a time to set that down, I think, to your point about rest. That can mean literal, physical rest, like, take a nap.

Yes, take a nap.

But it could also mean put that problem to rest for a minute. Do you really have to work on it all day? Mentally?

It's something mindless.

Mindless.

And a lot of people, I think we grew up where they said the mind is a terrible thing to waste, which it is. But it doesn't mean that you have to always occupy it with something that means something mindless. Could, you know, me being. Oh, I could have the television on. Yeah, it's watching me, as they say. I'm not watching it. It's watching me. That's funny. Sometimes, you know, something I love to do. I love animals.

Okay.

I love dogs. I will look at dog Videos, okay, yeah, you know, crazy little dog videos or whatever they're doing. Someone rescues a dog or those things, those make me. That makes me feel good. And I love comedy, so I love to laugh. So laughter is an out for me.

I'm glad you brought that up. This is going to sound kind of ridiculous, but I have some clients who I help here at the school and I've been down and this and this. I said, what are you doing at night? I'm studying all night. I'm just working, working, working. I said, put on a stand up comedy. Just make something make you laugh for an hour. Just, you need some endorphins going through your body for a little bit. And if that means just turn it on, whatever, Netflix comedy special, whatever. There's gotta be hundreds of them out there by now. It is not all appropriate for all ages, but. And they're free. Yeah, exactly. So you do need to get out and have some experiences where you can just make yourself laugh. What else? What other tips do you have for students? You're like, you know what? This is how students could take care of themselves a little bit better. Or just anybody in the community, really. I know this is sometimes we're mostly talking to our student community here on this podcast, but really, what have you found to be essential for mental health?

Essential for mental health is, number one, self care. Don't be afraid of self care. And when you say self, some people may think, because we are taught, don't be selfish, you know, but self care is not selfish. Because if you don't have anything, you know, to, to give to someone, if you're giving all of you, you need to be replenished. And self care allows you to do that. Back away from whatever it is, put it down, you know, and just go do something that you enjoy.

Yeah.

So that you can bring some joy back into your life. And then the other thing I would say is definitely a support group. You need people around who love you for you, who accept you for you. That's nonjudgmental and that will allow you to, you know, if you need to yell, yell. If you need to cry, you can cry without being judged. And sometimes you just need people just to, just to be there, being silent and just not say a word. Because I do that a lot. You know, they just need to talk. Get it out.

Yeah.

And then I'll say, okay, is it anything that I can do?

Yeah.

And they would say, no, just be in here to let me talk.

That was interesting. This was very humbling. When I went through my training to become a counselor and I learned from the research maybe half of what's therapeutic that we do, quote unquote, is the nothing that we do. The listening.

Yes.

And I don't even mean the active listening. I mean, there's a room set up where somebody can come in and sit and talk to another human being and they'll work out through their own thinking about it and spending an hour on themselves once a week, which some of us just won't do unless we make that appointment with the therapist. And that was kind of humbling as a counselor. Like, man, I want to fix and I want to talk and say all the things and get them to see this perspective and that perspective and change this mindset. And it's like, you know what a large value of what counselors bring is a non judgmental space that we just hear you. And I've had clients yelling and crying and doing all manner of expression of all kinds of emotions. And I am totally cool with that because that means you are a human being and you're in a space where you can do that because it's not allowed in a lot of places.

That's true. That's true. Even sometimes amongst your inner circle, because sometimes there is a person in the inner circle who's the strong one. They can handle and take anything. And so everybody comes and they dumped on that person, whoever that person may be. But what happens when the encourager needs encouraging?

Exactly. So I think we're talking about you right there.

Yes. We have to be careful not to. In our passions.

Yeah.

And in our heart and how we're leading and how whatever we're doing, that we're not giving a perception that it's not true or real.

Yeah.

And so I remember a long, long, long time ago that because I was always helping and always doing and blah, blah, blah, you know, all those things that I had. I did say that what happens when the encourager needs encouraging and you turn around and there's nobody there?

Right.

So I had to ask myself, have you created an image of you that is not true? So you have to do self evaluation, you know, and realization. And so then I had to, you know, years, 25 plus years ago, I had to change some things, you know, in order to come into my true self and not be. So what I want to say, Depleted.

Yeah.

When it came to what I needed for me.

Yeah. Where you could see yourself as a leader and a supporter who once in a while says, I need somebody to lead me and support me and support me.

Right.

Wow. Thank you. I can't believe we're out of time.

Who's out of time?

We are. We've been going for 27 minutes. I'm sorry. Maybe you come back on the show and give us some more wisdom later in the future. I appreciate that. Well, I appreciate also what you were sharing about vulnerability and authenticity. And really, I guess the thing since I kind of get the last word here is you've described an arc that you've grown over the course of your life. And the young woman who had a lot of passion and verve, she has that still. But she's learned how to take care of herself a little better so she can keep doing that. Is that right?

That's it? That's it.

Well, okay. I want to thank everybody for joining us today in the headroom. Speaking of which, if you would like some one on one help with your own mental health, LCC offers free confidential personal counseling. I'm one of the counselors. If you don't like me, there's three others. Okay. You can learn more at LCC Edu counseling. And thanks for listening and thank you again, Angela, for coming in the headroom.

Thank you, Professor Owens.