[Music]

Welcome to the Atlanta Tennis Podcast.

Every episode is titled "It starts with tennis" and goes from there.

We talk with coaches, club managers, industry business professionals,

technology experts, and anyone else we find interesting.

We want to have a conversation as long as it starts with tennis.

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Hey hey, this is Shaun with the GoTennis Podcast, powered by Signature Tennis.

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In today's episode, Bobby and I talk with Kelton Allen,

who operates out of Terrell Mill Tennis Center in Marietta.

Coach Kelly has a unique approach to coaching,

focused on respect, and if you're a coach, you should pay attention.

If you're a parent, you should definitely hold your own coach to a similar standard.

Have a listen and let us know what you think.

[Music]

Who are you and why do we care?

Okay, who I hope you don't care.

My name is Kelton Allen, but Coach Kelly is what everybody has known me as

22 years here at Terrell Mill Tennis Center.

It's been a while I've seen this place go through a couple of different buildings.

Started, I mean, I was a kid when I started here just kind of looking back.

You might get me choked up even talking about this,

because there's been a lot of changes.

And it's almost like automobiles.

You have it long enough.

You miss it when it's armed.

And so some of these changes occur, and this place has always been there for those changes.

So, anyway, I got into coaching right out of college.

I went to Hanover College.

I got into coaching because I got invited by a colleague or somebody I played against

throughout my college career to go to VanderMeers and learn to teach there.

Sorry.

To learn to teach there.

And under Dennis VanderMeer, I ended up getting certified and going through his whole program.

And all of a sudden, I have like, I'm making money teaching tennis.

You know, I'd gone to school to do business at all this.

I just could not believe that somebody would actually pay you money to teach tennis.

And now they're going to be asking me while I'm charging them.

But it was one of those things where, wow, this is what I'm going to do for the rest of my life.

I think there was one day teaching a group of adults or something.

And we finally got paid more than $5 an hour.

And then, you know, immediately I'm like, man, I'm going to do this.

So, in that movement in Atlanta, getting a job through good old Scott Mitchell,

I was telling you, Bobby.

It's God was great, but they ended up moving on.

And I ended up falling into this position.

So thousands of tennis players taught later.

Here I am.

And it's, you know, it's like I said, I hope it doesn't matter that much.

And I hope you don't care too much.

But I hope those that I help can benefit from it.

I like the idea of thousands of people.

Because when you've been at a place and we've all as coaches,

we deal with thousands of people. I think it was a famous or not so famous philosopher

that told me on a call recently about helping a coach can be more valuable than helping

thousands of people because that coach can help thousands of people themselves.

And as we get to a certain point in our careers, we get a chance to bring up some of the younger coaches

and be influences in a good way.

And you being basically a staple at Tarot Mill really allows you, really allows yourself

to do more than just coach each individual player that comes in.

You get to mentor a coach or two, I would guess?

Absolutely. And it's, it's been an ego gut punch to the ego at first.

Because I grew up in that world we were talking about, you know, coaching.

I run into a few few kind of like titans in the area that that I embed myself with.

And I kind of learn their ways of developing high performance players,

trying to make a name for myself and take on their ideas, even though those ideas might have been

against what I had in mind. Right? And so we get into these habits.

And, you know, and it just builds up one on top of another like a scar.

And if we don't continue to expand out and communicate with the coaches around us,

or even the younger coaches that may know more, which that's next,

it gets boring. It gets incredibly boring. There's no end to it.

You're always just going through the motions because it's what you've always done.

And I think that we all need, we should always be growing.

Personally, professionally, whatever. And somewhere along the way,

in the middle of all these years, I felt like I stopped growing.

And, you know, then I, you know, COVID hit and things changed a little.

And you got back on your toes. I'm like, man, I missed that grind and coach that was really excited

to get out there. It's like, all of a sudden everything changed. And it woked something up inside of me.

And it made me think a little differently.

Well, in that case, we've said in tennis and Bobby and I have had this conversation with

multiple people multiple times about COVID actually. It's hard to say it's a good thing, right?

So that caveat there, it's never a good thing to have a pandemic. But the silver lining,

the things that happened because of it and the adjustments that we made

from tennis about being one of the best COVID sports because it's outside. We've all been through all that.

We all reviewed ourselves. Bobby and I got on many calls during 2020 and said, hey, I got an idea.

We think we can affect some change here. We think we can make a difference.

And the idea that the best time to planetary was yesterday, the second or 20 years ago,

second best time. And for us, starting this conversation and being able to have it with the hundreds

of people we've had now, I can't wait to we get to say thousands, Bobby. But in the beginning,

it was just one. You have that conversation and say, hey, we're thinking about getting us together

and being friends. Let's be an industry that works together as opposed to these hyper competitive

we're tennis players. We want to win. But in business, in this case, the phrase you and I

discussed previously, and I want to jump right into this is growing the pie versus dividing up the

pie, right? And I heard John say that. I stole that from John Worthheim on Andy Roddick's podcast

recently. But I love the concept. Just an easy way to describe it. Instead of saying what's mine

is mine and you can't have it. Let's get together and find out how we can help each other grow this

tennis pie as a strange thing to say. Yeah, and that I feel like that can go in a few different

directions. We're talking about like growing the pie and how we get people involved. Obviously,

it can go, are we teaching younger players? How much do we actually respect the genders that

are coming in and that are teenagers, right? Like pickleballs killing us right now because teenagers

are walking out there and they're playing and it's easy. You see high school, groups of high school kids

getting together 20 or 30 at a time meeting at the pickleball courts and they're playing and every time

they seem to show up at our tennis courts, well, you're not high performing. So we're going to put

you over there with the right kids. As if right kids is even a respectful like connotation at that

point. I don't know. I mean, it's that's kind of my that's getting into my king of tennis

thing, but we'll be there in a minute. We'll get there. But but it's if we don't, if we don't

respect the weakest among us, we're not going to grow that pie. So all we're going to do is fight over

the work that everyone else has done. Well, and that's and that the two things we wanted to really focus

on today was respecting the youngest, but I think there's a lot of there's a lot of coaches out there

that do the do one thing. So okay, I just work with kids. I mean, my business specifically is a good

example of that. Tennis for children is just kids that we don't work with adults. Am I capable

as a coach? Yes, but that's not what I do. So if you've got a facility where you can offer everything,

Bobby, you can't just focus on kids. You've actually outsourced it to tennis for children at your

facility, Bobby. So what Kelly is talking about and what we've discussed previously offline was

how do we bring in more people? How do we grow the sport aside from the USDA's claim they're going to

have 35 million people play? Can we get another 35 or maybe even three to five people coming in to grow

what's going on? Bobby, what's our what's our starting point there that we say let's bring more people

in as opposed to I have to find the people that are probably playing with some other coach and steal

them. Does that make sense? Oh yeah. Yeah, I'm fortunate it boils to economics. I mean, you know,

first and foremost, we're a business. We have to feed ourselves, feed our families. If we're attached

to a club, we probably have some financial goals that we're supposed to reach to show that we're

viable and it makes the whole process very adversarial. So it's not easy. Like you said, to grow a program,

you're going to have to go out and do a call to drill but be satisfied with two people and be there

for six weeks with those two people sit to come for six weeks and tell a friend or two. So then we get

that number to four, you know, but a lot of people will shut it down after three weeks and say, well, I'm

not making any money. Well, you're making more money than you were if you were doing it. So, you know,

that's the other side of looking at you. You made $40 you made nothing and it's tough. It's a long

road, but that's the, and I think again, I love when we talk to different people, there's always a theme,

the folks that are more the upbeat folks with a bigger pie. Listen, if you work for Dennis Van Damier,

you learned how to work for the big picture. I mean, did you know Oscar, her title? Did you ever work with

Oscar? I did it. I did. Because Oscar probably left Van Damier right because he's new

Scott. That's how I met Scott was through Oscar. And Oscar was at Chastain with me when I was just

first getting started. And I mean, he taught me to run a group like nobody's business because he was

used to big numbers coming from Van Damier. So you learn, which was great because Atlanta is a lot

of that too. You had teams that want to practice together. So as a coach, do I want 14 people at the

court at the same time? No, but as a team, they want it. It's financially more feasible and they

want to be with their friends. And I was fortunate enough to do with it. And we were competitive, you know,

Oscar, but I learned and I learned an awful lot about how to move people through a drill. And,

you know, that's important. I was fortunate enough to work with somebody who had been to Van Damier,

learned through Dennis. And you know, that's how the journey started for all of us. And I think

that's very important. And that's again, we go back to not to blame on anybody. It used to be with

the USPTA. You weren't, they didn't actively seek you to get a certification until you had been in

the business for five years. Get in the business, make sure you want to be in the business, learn about

the business and then take the next step. Now we've rushed people into a certification. And we

might not keep them because they don't know everything but they're about to venture into. And then

they're surprised because they want to be driving the same Mercedes as their clients. And don't get

into coaching. That's what you're all about. Yeah, that's not going to happen. It's happening. So,

don't do that. That reminds me. Well, that was one of the phrases that don't drive a car that's

nicer than your clientele. Even if you can. You can't, unless you're Craig Mavison. Even if you can,

don't bring it to work. Just put it that way. Even at home. That stays in the driveway. But how do we,

how do we grow it? How do we convince people? And this is what Kelly and I have been talking about

recently, the culture here that is so competitive, we know we want to convince more coaches to work

together. You Kelly, you partnered with Colleen, right? What are you guys doing together? Yes.

Collaboration. How is that helped versus trying to compete in the area? It, um, I mean, we compliment

each other. It takes, uh, it takes a lot of burden away from me on many other ends. I mean, I,

I just don't enjoy the business side of it. Colleen's fantastic at it. And they've already had this

apparatus set up where it's just made it a lot easier for me to focus on, you know, kind of what's

on the court. And, um, you know, like developing coaches and getting them and their confidence

built up because in the end, it's like, do I really want to be out there that long anymore?

Not really. I'm in it for the discussions. I'm in it for like I was saying, the philosophies and

what's going on. I'm in it for the, for the coaching theory of what could be taking place at this

point in my career. Yet I'm still many times finding myself standing out there as a body on the court

because there's no other way to make money, right? And our failure to think differently

is what hurts us. Like where, where are the big events? We're in Atlanta. Where, where are the

events amongst juniors and coaches like, why can't I call up a UTA and say, Hey guys, let's do all

this without it being just, you know, a UTR sanctioned tournament. Why can't we just get together and

have an event for wreck, you know, wreck level players or orange ball level players or red or

performance or adults. And all of us coaches hop on the court together and see what we know.

Maybe where's the respect for each other? Well, and that's, and that's about growing, growing the pie.

Or can you, can we get a group of coaches from the area to get together and not be afraid of losing

a client to another coach? Oh, that coach is taller. They're going to leave me for that

coach is better at younger, whatever those things are that, that these coaches that think they're

really good at what they do. Yet there's clearly fear that they're going to lose clients

if they collaborate. Absolutely. I don't know how common that is, but the idea that we can't say,

Hey, you know what? I don't work in Marietta. Bobby doesn't work in Marietta. Somebody calls me and

says, Hey, Sean, I need a tennis coach in Marietta. I'm going to send him over to somebody good in

Marietta. Would you not want to be on that list? And in that case, are we all actually helping each

other? And maybe even Bobby and I talk about about specializations where I have specialized

in a certain way. Bobby runs the club. He's big picture. He's going to be able to handle the

business and the negotiations with the HOA and the vendors. So we all have these things that we're

good at. Kelly, if you really like being on court and Colleen can handle the structure,

that's a great fit. Like you said, now where are other pieces? And once we put all these pieces

together, then all of a sudden we've got events. And then we've got more people coming in.

And we can take some of that COVID era. COVID era, can I say that? Is it long enough to go to call it

that? That's pretty good. COVID era. COVID era. Boom. So to speak of tennis players, of families coming

out just to have fun. We can bring them back out onto the tennis court because it's not just one

guy. And I think is that what we're really defining, which is stop dividing up what already exists,

because it's not that much, because there's so much more out there.

Absolutely there is. And it didn't take us long. Once we realized we were on the same page.

And Colleen, he's really good at high performance. The better these guys get, the more

effective he becomes. And for me, I really love early development. It's not that I don't like high

performance. I just like early development. I like working through that. I realize the effect

that you can have on a human being in their first seven years of their life.

I mean, it really changes the way they will view the world in the future.

And the more I know and understand about that, the more I just love it. And then you take the

adult side, why don't we have an adult academy? I mean, people are going to live longer.

They're going to live longer these days. Like they're going to, there will be healthier lifestyles.

Why is it that once you're out of juniors that you can't have a regular program that's not a drop-in drill?

You know, and it doesn't seem to be many tennis academies for developing adults.

I was going to say, can I ask, can we ask that question directly of Bobby? Can we? Bobby, is there an

answer to that question? You do a lot of drills, Bobby. So if you don't know everything Bobby does at

Windermere almost daily. Really good. Oh gosh, you're a windermere. Yeah.

Really good stuff. But you can't, I don't know that anybody's going to sign up for an academy. Those

ideas have been floated. Bobby, where are we in the culture of tennis to provide for adults in that way?

The big thing we have to overcome, and I completely agree. I mean, I fight like tooth and nails. I'd

rather do drills, open drills, and I remind them constantly where neighbors first. You know,

there's nothing that gets me angry. And this is what you, I'll tell you, there's a lady that was

one of my biggest supporters for 11 years who will not talk to me anymore because I told her that

a beginner or somebody she viewed that was less of a player than her. She was complaining that she

was in one of the drills. And first of all, you're disappointed that we're bringing that up in front

of people. So that's like, okay, really, this is a private conversation, but okay. So you're doing

it in front of people trying to rally support. So you lose a little bit of esteem for the person

to begin with, that that person has certainly been the subject of the conversation on the other side

where people inked me and said, why is she still in the drill? And I said, because she lives in the

neighborhood. And that's what I would always try, that my culture was we're in neighborhood first.

And that's going to make the program prosper. The other over, you know, and then it's the, it's

our best friend and our biggest enemy, which is Alta, is that they have been conditioned to

practice as teams. And when you try to break up the team, there's a comfort zone there. And that's

the biggest thing. And that's the biggest handicap of learning is getting people to step out of their

comfort zone. And Alta gives them a self-imposed comfort zone. Like Kelly said, I laugh. And I say,

I tell this question all the time, were you ranked when you played as a junior? And I said, shoot,

I was 17th at my club. I could lose 17 times. I didn't need to travel to lose. You know,

as an adult, I realized who those guys were. And you know, they played pro. They went to play D1 tennis.

There was a lot of talent in this little club in Long Island. But you know, it was, it was a different

time. And we were just there. I came from a baseball mentality where it was a team. I was going to play

a sport. I wasn't going to join a team. I don't, I don't enjoy tennis. I think there's so many things

inherent about tennis that we have to overcome. And then again, the person who decides drills are more

important. You're going to take a hit initially. Okay. Yeah. Changing the culture. But you know,

my history says in my belief system says it's going to work out. Are you going to go through EBSN

flows? Absolutely. Did we try to do an account of that? We did all in composing. Like you would pay

six weeks. This is your price. So come as well. No, she did. Yeah. So, you know, that did great. And I

mean, we really do it in the beginning. It did great. Again, with the problem for us is EBSN flows.

The people move out. People move in. And we get older. You know, there's so much that goes into it.

I don't think we can look at it from any one answer. I think you got to look at it and say,

if I want to do it, don't look at it. It'd be great. If I get five people, great place to start.

And let's build it from there. It's not going to be like a junior academy where you're going to get

10 kids because I'd like that parents will drive for their kids. They're going to take what's convenient

themselves. So there's simplicity. What's the easiest to get there? What's the most cost

economical? I will spend money on my child. For me, I'm going to take what's easiest and make the best

stuff. That makes sense. We, uh, we tried to start it out here a little bit. And it got rolling. It

was actually like, it was, I was working with, with Marley Woods at the time. And I don't know if,

you know, Marley, but I know Marley worked for Marley. She is a, she's a walking encyclopedia. It's

unbelievable of experience, expertise, the whole deal. It was, it was actually hard working with her.

And it was on the ego for someone like me who's been doing this for so long and she's just like,

you take a gut bunch and hit your knees every morning when something new comes up. It's like,

oh my gosh, I never saw it this way before. And so it was actually, I don't know if you had any

of that experience, but, you know, did you work with Marley prior to or after AAC? Atlanta

country club. So you met her. I met her at Atlanta Country Club. Like you said, at all the

admiration and would go to Atlanta Country Club and tell these, but you really don't know what you have

here. And they'd be like, well, she doesn't do this. And I'd be like, you really don't know what you

have. You have no idea. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, again, it gets back to fit. She was not the right fit

for Atlanta Country Club. And, but you sit there and that's the bad part because they would probably

be people from Atlanta Country Club. So I'll be like her, but she, you know, coaching, it wasn't a

work. Well, you know, it goes both ways. She's knowledgeable heck yeah. I mean, obviously one of the best

when it comes to cardio tennis, there is in the area, you know, in the country, for God's sates.

And I brought her up to win a beer a couple of times. I'm like, do you realize you have one of the best

cardio coaches in the country coming up here and set up cardio for you? And you know, it's not

their thing. And it all, it falls back on the coaches. Like, well, you know, you can't, but don't

bring it on Marley. You know, she certainly knows what she's doing. Yeah. And it's funny. She's one of

those people I just owe so much to she, she opened my eyes. She was, she was one of the ones that made me

almost quit. She was, she was, she was, no, really, I mean, it was a big help. She was a huge help.

And, and I'm glad I'm glad that I got to work with her. She's one of those. Think about passion,

where she would drive from to get to work. I mean, you're stressed. I mean, she was working.

I'm a new baby. I mean, there was so much going on. And I was like, you guys really don't know what you got.

She's, yeah, she showed me so many things, man. And I do so many things the way that she showed me today.

But, you know, it's fun because my experience has been able to really kick in.

And, you know, I bring her up because like, she's one of those people growing the pie.

Like everywhere she goes, like, there's more interest. She's volunteering all the time. She's

always growing the coaching education. She's always training new coaches. So she's one of those grow the pie

people. Oh, that's good. We're going to have a, we're going to have a name for this grow the pie group

that I'm going to have to get in touch with John Worth. I'm in tune. Tell him, thank you. We're still

in the concept. But and Bobby and I talk about it a lot. It is. We, we want to, we're not just

chopping it up, saying, okay, I'm, you know, I'm hungry today. So let's cut the pizza into 10 pieces

instead of 8. But it doesn't work that way. Let's, yeah, let's actually understand that we can help

each other. And like you talked about with events, but then if we go back to the idea of saying, okay,

we're growing it, that doesn't always mean new people. It can mean a friend of a friend. It can

mean somebody who used to play, but it also can mean, hey, you know what? I had somebody that was a

great client over here, just moved over to the other side of town, helped them find the next coach.

But I just don't see enough of that. I do a lot of that. I don't know why I've done it for years

where when somebody calls or somebody comes into message, they go to tennisforchildren.com and they

send me that message saying, I'm looking for this thing. I live in Marrett shameless plug. Sorry.

I live in Marrett, I'm looking for this. I need, I need a red ball thing. I'm like, I know a guy,

go here. Right? Right now, I think in Buford. So I'm like, go to Buford City Park, find David

Matthews. Go to Terrell Mill, find Kelly Allen. And it's the thing where I don't know why more people

don't do it. Maybe they just tired. They don't, what, I don't get paid for this. Like no, but when

they walk up and say, Hey, coach Kelly, coach Sean told me that you're great. What are you going to do

when somebody calls in my area? Are we not friends now? An easy way that referrals just to make a friend?

Well, and that's the thing, right? Like you, if you trust the people that you're with and you already know,

like, and you guys have a commonality in the way you teach even, like an understanding, like we don't,

we don't have a language. We don't have a language that we speak to our students that,

that's similar. And that's one of the things that PTR and PTA or USPTA they try to do is at least give

the coaches a language. But if they're all embedded in what's always worked, then those languages,

it's just, it's just a bunch of chatter. It's like a thousand different dialects and nobody understands

each other. And that seems to be there, like there's just no conversation. And they're almost

they didn't want to be had. I mean, it was hard enough for me learning what Marley was teaching me.

And I'm sure that the guy I was probably horrible to work with. And you know, looking back,

and I'm just like, wow, all of it changed when the language changed. And then it opened up a world

of like all these ideas that I had before. They fit right in. You know, it's not that what I knew before

it doesn't matter. It just simply, somebody gave me a funnel to put it in. And now it all goes to

the same place. And the energy goes to the right place. That's all. And so like sharing that

information, like I would love to give someone a fun. Yeah. And that's where we can help each other.

But I think the young pros Bobby met me in my early 20s. Bobby knew there was something there. So he

kept in touch. Didn't necessarily mean he wouldn't be around me a lot at the time because I came in

probably like a lot of coaches thinking I was great. And didn't realize until a Wilson,

Tineel and a Darryl Lewis and a Justin, you know, and these guys that could really just say,

hey, Sean, you might think you're great, but let's actually help you to get there. Because you're 23

years old and you have no idea what's going on here. And yes, there's potential. So a bit of it is

respect and to be able to respect the people you work for that you work around. And it isn't even just

I might be older than Bobby. You might be older than me. It isn't just age. It isn't just

this person is older than me. It's what did they have that I don't have? Maybe they know something

that I don't already know. I think that was one of the rules. There was a Jordan Peterson rule

that I read one of those assume the person you're talking to knows something that you don't.

Yeah, it's great to know more things were coaches were were educators were helpers were mentors.

It'd be great to learn more things rather than just saying, oh, you're new. You don't know what you're

doing. So that respect goes both ways. And I'll use that as a kind of struggle to tie in

respecting the youngest because I know that's the other topic we want to talk about is respect can

go both ways. We force this kid this five year old this seven year old to respect me because I'm the

coach and I tell you what to do. But we don't show them similar respect. What's that coaching

relationship like for you Kelly? You got a fairly I would call it a unique way of looking at it,

but maybe it's just because it's the first time I've heard of it. Well, I gave the example

that he gives the example in the book. The courage to be dislike is actually about at Lerian

psychology is one of the best books. Life changing books I've ever read because it was the first time I

was truly introduced to at Lerian psychology. And he was given a definition of respect where the

the definition was allowing somebody to be exactly who they are without any intention of changing

them. Yet most people's idea of respect has an authoritarian feel to it. In other words, you respect

me and do what you're told because of my position. And that's everything but that. When you do what you're

told because you're afraid of somebody, you're being manipulated. That's manipulation. If you're afraid

of making someone mad or you need to make someone happy, you're nothing more than subject to the emotions

of the person so-called demand and respect. But if you look at respect, it's a ball. And if all you do

is hold that ball and yell at everybody and say, "Give me this ball," right? And you never give it out.

They can't give it back. So if you're the one holding on to it and all you do is hold on to it,

it's like holding your breath. You hold it long enough. You will have no breath whatsoever.

If you hold on to the respect and expect it to come at you, it's simply not going to.

And that's a way that we can get more people. Understanding that is a way we can get more people to

play. Adults, kids, whoever it is, one of my favorite, I learned this fairly early actually in my

teaching career at TBC Sugar Loaf, where I really cut my teeth for a few years, was I would bring on

that I was in charge of the men's thing for a while. And I'd have these 15-20 guys coming out for

drills. And every time I'd open the gate for somebody, step into my office, walking into the

to the courts. Well, these are guys. These are successful, financially successful guys.

And I'm making my jokes step into my office. And there were a few times where the guys made sure

I knew they actually did respect me. I thought I was being cute. But what I realized, they were coming

to me because I am the expert. We had a guy that was, I think he was head of the Federal Reserve in

Atlanta. And when he walked into the court, like 99% of things, he's got me. But in this one area,

he came to me as an expert. And he listened and he appreciated that. And we got to have these

conversations directly about why we were doing this. And that they were respecting me in that way.

But I also understood, this is the only time I got, I get to tell this guy what to do. And that was

really a cool realization for me is I respected them for who they are just naturally. And they

respected the time on court with me as an expert in the thing that I'm doing. And with the kids,

it was the same way. It was respecting them as children to beat themselves and have fun. Yes, but

you think they're capable of more to the kids. You think they're capable of more than just having fun.

Yeah, well, I mean, it's not just that. It's meeting them where they are. In other words,

not trying to get them to go somewhere where they're not ready to go yet. But this is another one

of those things I learned. The gut punch. Why are you constantly having to show them how to do

something? Like, why isn't it that it's not already there? And that all you have to do is give

their creativity parameters. Because creativity without parameters is all over the place. And they're

at their most creative. I mean, like, let me chase an airplane with their arms and that man, and

sometimes I'll jump in with them. Like, I want to feel that way. I wish I was that real. I wish I was

that authentic. So when you got these little, like, truly authentic human beings out there,

and they're just trying to do what they know and all their experiences are different. If you

just set little parameters and allow them to be successful and not praise them or review them or

anything of that nature as long as they're not hurting anyone, you'd be really surprised. Like,

how much the parents appreciate that? More so than you coming down on the kid for misbehaving.

You know, I had told a parent a few weeks ago and she was kind of coming down the kid for not doing

what they're telling us. I said, look, when this kid is a teenager and he's hanging out with his friends

and there's a bully standing there trying to get him to do something he doesn't want to do. You want

him to do what he's told? Because that's all going to change in the future. And right now, he's

still got that. And now I'm going to bring him back in, but I'm going to do it without making him.

He's going to let him come in on his own. And that's just the hard thing to do because

when parents have these expectations, it becomes about parents. And it's simply not about them.

It's not about me. It's not about them. It's about those children. And the more they see that,

they just want more of you. They just keep bringing them back. It's pretty neat actually. And it's

been one of the hardest discoveries I've ever had because I spent 15, 20 years telling people what they

do. That's why I almost quit. It was almost embarrassing realizing that I don't have to tell anybody

anything what to do. I can help them if they ask me. But if they don't ask me, then I'm going to

respect that they don't want it yet. I don't do it a little different though. I don't do it last.

Yeah. Exactly. And I was going to ask Bobby. Bobby's got a few high school kids in his program that

I'm sure he's dealt with the kids and the parents and how unique of a situation that can be.

Yeah. It goes back to when you get the kids to. I mean, it's the great part about getting them young

because I'm different when I get them young as opposed to when you know, you get them at a certain

age and you say, okay, I got to sit the parameters first. And then they get to learn more about me

by being there with me with the little ones. Like I said, I'm the one out there that the other

coach wants to leave because I'm creating more chaos. I want the kids to have fun. Like you said,

I want them to be as creative as I can be. I want them to enjoy because they're not coming back in the

beginning. They're not coming to play tennis. They're coming to have fun. So they better enjoy it.

So if they enjoy it, they come back by coming back, they're going to get better at tennis. And the great

part about coaching and it better be the reason why you do it because again, you're never going to be

rich. You're going to be you're going to be in a pain. You're going to work long hours. Is it what I

love about a kid that when I started really young, whether they play tennis or not, when I see that

kid, whether it be at a publics around the tennis courts, we can go back to when they were young

and they first met me and they'll relax and be different than they are with anybody else because

we have that shared experience. And that's if that that's the buzz that keeps me going. That's the

buzz and I enjoy it. And you know, she's sitting in the other room and she can hear me. But you're having a

child who spends every day with me 24 hours to see the things that she's gotten just by being next to me.

Not lecturing, not saying, like you said, I don't want to squash the creativity. I want you to be

more creative. You know, you're in the prime creative zone. Tell me something that's going to make me a

million dollars. You know, discover something and we can sell. I don't want to just buy it. I want to

just buy it. But there's obviously a chance that his daughter around like, what are you into? What do we

get? Absolutely. I'm asking for about tennis. It's a different generation. You know, what

and it is. It's so much social media driven and it's so I laugh. I give her a hard day. They all

want to look the same. I mean, we went out of our way to look different, but there's a trend. I've

spent, you know, days looking for Stanley thermoses. And is it a great product? Yes. But, you know,

it's like, it's it's different. Whatever it is, it's different. But that's okay. There's nothing wrong

with it. Different. Different brings more. I don't want to pretend like I know everything. Different

is what makes it interesting. So, you know, I'd rather be interesting than dull, but it goes bad to,

hey, not everybody's going to subscribe to that. So, you know, you're not going to, not everybody's

going to like you. No matter how likable you think you are. And you got to be okay with that. And

that's you know, that's what you're talking to me with that one. I don't know that. That's all.

You're the person. Look at Sean. You don't even know how you mean I laugh. I sit there. Yes, I met

Sean. Sean was upbeat. Lot of energy. I said, Holy cow. You know, this is somebody that I want

to know. So, what did I do? He wanted to work someplace. Oh, where did he work first for somebody

that I knew very well that Sean was going to be taking care of and Sean, you know, at a place where

he wasn't going to be able to be probably as creative as he wanted to be just because of, hey, it's

a fancy club. You're going to have to put your time. So, you're going to, you know, there's a

maturation process and you learn what's appropriate when it doesn't mean I don't sit there and still fly

like an airplane. I'll do it with my adults because hey, I just made a shot that you can't. And I'm

going to celebrate it. Ha, ha. And that's fun. That's, you know, that's the moment. And I want

everybody to experience that fun of saying, well, I just did something that even surprises me.

You should get to celebrate that. So, you know, there's, there's got to be, hopefully the motivations

and I think so much. And I can say, they don't start from the beginning. What brought you here?

What got you into it? What are you trying to get out of it? If you're prone to be telling what I

hear is you, you, you never want to stop learning. And I feel very much the same way. There's, there's

all it's like, you know, it's like you know less and less about more and more. Exactly. And I can't

wait to read this book because I'm like, well, that's, that's really interesting. I'm like, that's a

fly route down as well. I think Kelly is the same way I look at myself and about learning as well. I

was, I was 35 and I looked at myself at 25. I'm like, man, I was an idiot. And then I turned 45,

looked at myself at 35. I was like, oh my god, I was such an idiot. I'm interested when I'm 55

to look back at myself now. Okay, hopefully I'm not thinking I was as much of an idiot as I feel.

Well, it's funny. It's funny. You say that and you're working in these tents, but I've really adopted

finally. After, you know, lots of help. The Matthew Bacona, hey, look at it, right? The, who is your hero?

It's me 10 years from now. There you go. This is who I want to be. Right? And this is what I'm trying

to become. And this is why I've gotten so deep into like philosophy. It's just this idea that

I am all these things like the good and the bad will rise mutually with me. And, but I still want to

walk in the direction of that hero. That hero of me 10 years from now. And I feel like everybody

that's special. You know, like everybody, like everybody's this way, like everybody's this important.

And it comes all the way down like I was saying to Red Bull. You know, it's everybody's this important.

And if we can't learn to see it this way, we're in trouble anyway.

Great. Here you go, Sean. I know we're on a tight number, but again, you know, as it always happens,

we just got, and I love this discussion. And I think this is a problem with our society today.

Where are the heroes? Not just who are the heroes. The hero, I think we've had to manufacture.

And we tried to manufacture rather than just through time. You sit there and look at it.

It's whether it be a movie star, you know, what the blind, whatever happened to the movie star.

That person who just did not need to say, you didn't need to be told that they were movie star.

The the athlete who you did not need to be told, you walked, they walked in the room and your jaw drops.

You know, the Muhammad Ali and he's lighting the torch. Nobody knows. It's 65,000 people are initially

speechless because it's like holy shiata. That's Muhammad Ali.

You know, and I think, and I think we've been losing in society because of that because we have

a tendency to want to bring our heroes back down at the ground. And I don't know if anybody benefits

from that. I'm all for the simplicity of I want to be my hero, but you learn from other people.

And I think that is an issue that we do go out of our way to knock down people who could be heroes.

Or the heroes just say, you know what? I don't want anything to do with it. I mean, you mentioned

Jordan Peterson. What that man has gone through for saying something about something and how it was

misconstrued and how it became a whole life of its own where if you listen to what he said initially,

you're like, well, he didn't say anything. He wasn't putting anybody down. And you know, and you

got to be careful. Don't say Jordan Peterson because if you know Jordan Peterson is, everybody's

gone to opinion on him. And that's too bad because it's like everything else. Does he have good things

to say? Sure. Do you have to agree with everything? No. He's not asking you to. That's the definition

of respect, right? Yeah. It's okay for him to be him. Yep. And he doesn't, you know, he's cool with it.

And that's the way it should be. We should be able to have a civil conversation and be able to walk

away and say, okay, you know, we're a little different here. How do we massage it? And prosper.

So that's a whole thing. I mean, I guess every, every human being and we're in a different world now.

I mean, there's so much information available on the different neuroses. We all have it. And like,

we're, we're, we're, we have these generations of say like people raising people, people coaching

people who haven't dealt with their own neurosis first. And you know, like as soon as you figure out how

to climb from the bottom or you're the one that realized there is no bottom. If you don't know how to

get out of there, why are you coaching somebody else? How to get out? Because you don't, you don't know.

You know, and you have no one has to go to the bottom. But you know, that's the thing is like,

do you really know what you're saying? Do you really know that you can help? Or are you walking

in it? Because we're, we got this world of, you know, I'm a life coach. What does that mean? Like you're,

you know, you're 30 years old. What do you got? I'm 27. I'm going to do this for a living. Yeah.

Okay. You know, what was it like to be 70?

Well, speaking, speaking of getting out, Kelly, you're now down to three minutes for your

King of Tennis questions. So I'm going to have to, I'm going to have to push. But we've already

answered it. But well, yes, we already answered that because I know you know the King of Tennis

question was coming. And I think we did a good job of summing up the things we wanted to talk about

today. But let me ask the direct question. And we'll see if we can knock it out pretty efficiently

here at the end. If you were King of Tennis, is there anything you would do or change? Yes.

I would make sure that in all of the training that we define respect

and that we all agreed on what it meant. And it's because the lack of respect causes more

damage than anything. That's all. Not respecting your clients, not respecting the ages and stages of

the maturity of the player or what they might be going through or not respecting even the role of

parent. A lot of times we can do as coaches, not respecting other coaches. I've done this so many times.

I've been a victim of it and I've been the one doing it. And it's just something that I just try to

stay away from. And I know right away when I do this respect someone in some way, and I try to make it

right. But I think that that's a big deal. And everybody walking on the court, they're out there to

have a good time and competition and opponents create an atmosphere where you can just simply give

your best. And that's all it is. The score is a means to an end. It's not to say who's better than

the other. That's good because our last score, I think you won. So clearly, it's just a means to an end.

It has nothing to do with who's better. Dude, I love where you are. This is awesome.

Love where you are. This is a great route. What I'm going to ask you, Kelly, is at some point,

what I'm going to do now, but at some point, I want to get together with you and have your

definition of respect that as King of tennis, if you were to say, if we can hang this on every

wall in every tennis center in the world, we want to quote, here's the definition, here's the

statement you want to make to every tennis center, every facility. And let's see if we can define

that and we'll put it out and we'll see if we can make change. Does that sound good? Let's write it

down and steal it from the book. There we go. If you already know exactly what you do, we don't even

have to personalize it, but we'll figure it out. Somebody already said it better, man.

Okay, that's good. We can quote somebody else. I'm just saying if I can change it a little bit,

I can put my name on it. It's all I'll say.

Kelly, thank you, James. I appreciate your time. Bobby is always, this is awesome. I'm sure we

can go on forever as we always know we can, but we will come back and have some of those other

conversations in longer forms. And we will stay in touch. Kelly, thank you so much. I appreciate it.

Thank you guys for watching.

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