Romans 15, verses 5 through 9, reads, now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus, so that with one purpose and one voice, you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Therefore accept one another, just as Christ has also accepted us for the glory of God.

For I say that Christ has become a servant to the circumcision in behalf of the truth of God, to confirm the promises given to the Fathers and for the Gentiles to glorify God for his mercy.

Here St. Paul is writing to the Church at Rome about salvation.

He's getting ready to wrap up his letter by reminding the Church what salvation means for their relationships to one another.

In this pericope, he ties acceptance of each other to Christ's servitude with his disciples.

Dr. Chris Hansen, how could this understanding help with our relationships with one another today?

When you talk about their Jesus and his disciples, I naturally think, you know, kind of to the story where a couple of them come and say, hey, can we be at your right and you're left, and when you come into your kingdom.

And he.

And he says, wait a minute, you guys are missing the point.

It's really about what this passage says, that we need to be about one purpose and one voice.

And.

And he leads into the first shall be last, and the last shall be first.

And that idea of serving others toward that one purpose and one voice.

And so I think that says an awful lot about our relationships and our relationships in unity and our relationships toward a shared purpose.

Yeah, yeah.

No, I like that a lot.

Hey, everybody.

Welcome to the Whole Church Podcast.

Possibly your favorite church unity podcast.

It's cool if it's not, though, because Unity Podcast can't really be in competition without the Unity podcast.

It gets to like this weird, like, you know, paradox, loop conundrum stuff.

It doesn't work.

But what does work is acknowledging the presence.

When you're standing in his presence, your voice trembles at the pot.

Almighty.

The one and only TJ type of ear.

Swan Blackwell.

Welcome to your show.

Thanks.

Yeah.

And of course, we are also here today with an exciting guest.

As always, we have a lot of exciting guests, but this one I come to know and love at Orton.

Last year up in the mountains, I got to meet him.

It was a lot of fun.

On the one only Dr. Chris Hansen.

He is the author of Open and Relational Parenting, Loving Parents Reflecting a Loving God.

And Chris Hansen, M.D.

theology D. Smart Guy, Real smart fellow.

Over Here Pediatrician.

He has guided families through the joys and challenges of parenting for nearly 30 years.

As the father of two grown daughters, his personal and professional experiences sparked a deep interest in how theology shapes parenting.

So naturally, when we meet brilliant people, we like to have them on our show to make us seem smarter.

So that's what we do.

It's what we do.

And if you like that, you'll probably like to check out the Anazel Podcast network website.

The link is below.

Below for shows that are like ours, who know how to get the most out of other people in a non.

Exploitative way.

I was going to say.

It just sounds so bad.

Maybe it is.

Maybe we should quit.

TJ and I have argued about exploiting others before.

Yeah.

But speaking of exploiting others, you can leave us a one time tip or subscribe for monthly.

You can buy extras.

There's merch on fourth wall that is also in the show's description.

To check that out.

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And just like the show.

That's super helpful.

That's just as helpful as buying the shirts.

Even though the shirts look a lot cooler.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Also, yeah, the shirts get worn out too.

And it's nice.

And yeah.

Lots of ways you can support.

And we support you supporting us.

Yeah.

Right.

All right.

And as always, one of my favorite things to do to make unity inevitable is to practice a holy, sacred sacrament of silliness.

Because you can't be divided when you're being as silly as I like to be.

So here we go.

Today's silly question.

If animals did theology, which animals do we think would be most likely to lean into open and relational stuff?

I'm gonna make TJ Go first.

He's smarter when it comes to animals than me.

Yeah.

So it's a question.

It certainly is a question.

I was thinking probably like tardigrades.

If you count those as animals.

I understand if you don't.

And if not, I would say like a hedgehog.

They've always been like a little counterculture.

Just.

Just a little guy.

You know, they have their own beliefs about the world.

Tiny little predators.

They're awesome.

So probably hedgehogs is where I'm gonna land.

Mm.

See, I want to try and do something smart and do like some kind of like ants or something that form, like a community together and always work together.

But instead I'm just gonna be really basic here.

Dogs.

I just can see my dog being like, you know what?

Yeah, of course.

My owner responds to me the same way that I respond to him.

And we love one another.

What?

That just sounds right, because, you know, dogs just long for.

For love in relationship, and I just.

I don't know.

Makes sense, you know?

Good dog.

Dr. Hanson, you're the only one with PhD or the HD, so you thd you can tell us the correct answer, so.

Well, I don't know if it's the correct answer.

I'll Dog was up on my list to.

To maybe bring up, but.

But I.

So I think that was a good answer.

I. I kind of want to say I thought about lemur, because that's just a co.

Cool word to say, and it's fun and it's silly.

Correct.

And they like to move meerkat.

Yeah, they do.

And.

And then you think of meerkats just because of Timon and that.

That's cool.

Correct.

But I. I think I landed on dolphins because, hey, they're pretty smart, and.

And they like to have a lot of goofy fun all at the same time.

They're not particularly controlling, and they work really together well in relationships.

So I think.

I think dolphins.

Yeah, I think that's probably just the correct answer.

It's funny, though.

I could absolutely see, like, dolphins listening to Homebrewed Christianity.

At least maybe not our show.

What's funny is the only thing that I think of when I think dolphins are, one, dolphins attacking people, because more dolphins attack people than sharks.

And two, that one scene at Hitchhiker's Guide of the Galaxy when they're like, you know what?

You guys are stupid.

Thanks for all the fish.

And just launch into space.

Yeah, Smart animals.

Yeah.

Yeah, that happens.

But one thing that we have found that always helps with church unity if the silly question doesn't get it done is to hear one another's stories.

So, Dr. Hansen, would you mind sharing with us some about your faith journey and how you got interested in pediatrics?

Like, how did you end up where you are now?

Yeah.

So this will probably kind of.

Kind of overlap into just some things about the.

About the book and what I've been doing lately, too.

But, yeah, I finished training in pediatrics in the mid-1990s, and about the same time we had our own first child in 1994, and around, I guess, maybe my second or third year out in practice, I started hearing things at our church, which was a fairly conservative, fundamental church that I'd grown up in, and they decided they were going to have a parenting weekend, so parenting seminar type weekend, and they brought in some curriculum, and they kind of showed the advance kind of layout of what the weekend would be like.

And I start reading through it, and I realize, wait a minute.

What they're going to be talking about doesn't line up with what I've learned and what I'm teaching other young parents to do as best practices in parenting.

In my practice, in my profession, the approach that they were taking was just not aligned with that at all.

So that led to several years where I think I just lived in kind of a discordant situation and just couldn't make those two things match where what the church was saying that should be happening with parenting and what I was teaching people on a regular basis.

So fast forward to other points in life, and people talk about whether it's deconstruction.

I don't really think that's really the right.

Right term for me.

I think it's a little bit more of just like developing faith in a different way.

And I think I've gone through at least two of those times in my life.

One around 2005 and one probably around the mid-2010s to 2015 or something like that.

And each one of those led me to question different things.

The one in 2015 was spurred on, or 2018 was spurred on by getting to hear Pete N. Speak.

And our church at the time, we had kind of gone through some church changes, and we had actually arrived at the church where we are at now.

And they had Pete come in to do it, to do a lecture series.

And I was very pessimistic because I said, oh, wow, this guy's gonna kind of tell us to, like, read the Bible every day and give us a path through to read the whole Bible in 365 days or something like that.

And that is not what I found.

Right.

And Pete.

Pete opened my eyes to.

To a whole world of some new possibilities which.

Which led to hearing lots of the folks that we've even mentioned, whether it's home bre our.

You guys are Josh Patterson, or a whole host of folks.

Which then led me to beer camp the first year that it was back in session after the pandemic.

So when we were in Chapel Church.

Oh, yes.

Yeah.

Which was a great time, and it's a great congregation.

Really enjoyed being there.

So that led me to meet Tom Ward, which then eventually led me to learn a lot more about open relational theology.

And as I did.

Wait a minute.

I see things here that are compatible with the way that I teach parents to parent and the way that science says are best practices about parenting.

And it made me think, wait A minute.

I think there's something here I should explore more.

So, so that led me to, to holler at Tom and say, hey, I don't know if I fit as a potential student of yours, but I'm kind of, kind of, I'm kind of interested.

I probably am too old, as it turns out.

Not at all.

And, and I said, I probably don't have the prerequisites.

And he said, sure you do.

And so next thing you know, I'm signed up and paid tuition again and studying under Tom for the last few years.

And that led to this whole project.

Nice, nice.

You know what led to pediatrics?

You know, when medical students are going through usually the third year nowadays, the second or third year of medical school, they get exposure to lots of different areas and fields.

And I really didn't know what I was, what I was going to do.

I came in with a pretty open mind.

So I went to internal medicine, which is kind of like general adult medicine first.

And I thought that was really cool.

And then, and then I went to pediatrics and.

Oh, I thought that was pretty cool.

And so I was actually introduced, interested in doing kind of a combination of the two.

And then, and then the kids just won my heart over.

And ever since then it's been though that that was definitely the right, the right choice.

And no part of it do I regret.

I love everything that I do.

It's just really, really fun.

Nice, Nice.

Yeah.

Real quick.

For those listening or watching or depending on things come out.

If you do hear children screaming.

Dr. Henson isn't showing you what happens during other theological models of parenting.

He just, he works at a hospital with children.

So that just, that's the background noise.

Instead of dogs barking, you hear children's getting shots.

It's fine.

Also, I got to say, you know, we love, we love Pete Inns.

We love all them.

So love, love all that.

I forget what the follow up question that I was going to ask was, so I'm going to jump to the next thing here.

You mentioned some about the churches and stuff that you've gone to, some of the changes you've seen.

Can you tell us about the faith community you're in now?

Sure, yeah.

So when our youngest daughter, her name's Carrie, when she went off to college in 2018, we, we made a little move in town geographically and that led to moving our church affiliation just because it didn't make sense to drive as far as we would have been.

That led us to actually look at a whole bunch of different churches.

In our city because we wanted to kind of, kind of see an open view of, hey, what is the Kingdom of Heaven doing in our city?

By the way, I live in Memphis, Tennessee.

So we went to 10 different churches of 10 different denominations.

And after six months of kind of looking, we landed at a church that at the time was a non denominational church.

We just celebrated our 15th year.

So they were a fairly young church back then.

Interestingly, right about the time the pandemic came on, the church decided that they were interested in seeking denominational affiliation, which is not necessarily a common situation these days.

They started looking and because of the pandemic, that kind of got put on hold.

And then this year that started back up in earnest.

And just a few months ago, our church aligned with the Disciples of Christ.

We are a, we're a, I would say a casual liturgical church.

We follow the lectionary series and we, and we do liturgies, but certainly in a, in a more casual way, if that makes sense.

Not certainly a high church kind of way, but we do preach through the lectionary and, and those kind of things.

Our, our, our children's program is, is a godly play program that you may or may not be familiar with.

And it's kind of, it's kind of a Montessori based Sunday school type curriculum.

And so I get to participate in that as well, which is a lot of fun.

Yeah, that's really neat.

I was about to say, like, I assume you were pretty critical of like the children's programs at these churches.

At some of them I've been sometimes critical of those.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, that actually is the follow up I wanted to ask.

Earlier you mentioned some of how you didn't like what some of the other churches were saying, how it didn't match up what you know, from your work.

Could you give us an example?

Because, you know, I don't want to just be kind of vague and like, oh, these things are bad, these things are good.

Like, what's an example of something, you know from your work that this doesn't work, that maybe teach it in some churches?

Yeah, absolutely.

And as we get talking, we'll talk, we'll probably talk more about the way that I think about different styles of parenting and so forth.

But those approaches, well, they were specifically growing kids.

God's Way, which was kind of a really popular program back in the late 90s.

And even today you still buy that curriculum kind of is based on a very authoritarian view of parenting in a way that parents see their responsibility as being God's ambassadors to their children.

And so they seek to teach them obedience to their authority so that someday the children will obey God's authority.

So this idea of an authoritarian control is very, very high in those systems.

So they tend to be not very responsive and they tend to be highly demanding.

And they tend to look at children as naturally sinful and flawed and see that that needs to be corrected out of them as their responsibility as parents.

Right.

Where that doesn't line up with better practices is scientific literature, psychological literature, pediatric literature, all says that what would be much preferable is what I refer to as a nurturant style of parenting, which is going to be a parent that's much more responsive.

They still have high goals and aspirations and desires for what their children will be.

The way they lead them there is a little differently.

And the way they respond to them along that path is a little bit different.

Right.

So how would you describe open and relational theology to parents who have never heard the term before?

Okay, good.

Yeah.

So when people first hear open relational theology, I think they sometimes don't know what we mean by open.

And I know you guys know this, but many of the listeners may not necessarily know that.

It's not just a vague kind of open to open to a lot of ideas.

It's really specifically talking about open.

That the future is open and that we are moving into a future that is undetermined and so far unwritten, and that God is moving with us through time toward that undetermined future.

So that's the, the open aspect of it.

And then the relational aspect views that as we do that God is guiding us toward what I like to use the term divine aspirations for what can be in the future.

And then we make our choices and decisions along that path, God responds to them, and then this becomes a relational co creation of our world and of every moment as we move into the future.

So open, the future is open and relational.

We are co creating with God to create that future.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But how does love understood as freely given but not controlling?

Kind of a little bit what you're describing there translate into parenting practices?

Yeah, I think, yeah, let's talk about that a little bit more.

I talked a little bit about styles.

I wanted to find that just a little bit more.

When people, if you just like hop on Google and say parenting styles, you're going to often find kind of a grid of four common styles.

And the grid is bisected by two axes.

So one that kind of runs horizontally and can be defined as Parental responsiveness.

So if you can kind of imagine to my right, your left, as the grid moves across, then those parents become more responsive to the right and less responsive to the left.

There's also an axis that moves vertically that classically is referred to as parental demandingness.

But I think it also means, like I was describing before, those parental aspirations for what we're going to do.

It's like what we want our kids to do in the short term and the long term it may be as simple as please don't spill the nail polish on the floor to let's pee in the potty, let's learn how to ride a bike, let's eventually go to college.

So short term and long term aspirations.

So if you can imagine the low demanding and low responsive parents.

So that's going to be the left lower quadrant is going to be the absent parent.

We're not going to talk a lot about that.

But those are parents that for some reason, death, divorce, disinterest, other reasons just aren't involved in a particular child's life.

If you switch just up one quadrant, so you've got a highly demanding but low responsive parent.

That's the authoritarian parent that I was talking about just a little bit ago.

That's the classic parent who says, who if asked why, responds by saying because I said so.

So the parent's authority is, is really strong and, and their responsiveness to the children's input and needs, not so much.

If we switch one to the right, then we get what classically has been described as authoritative parents.

That's extremely confusing to have the word authoritative and the word authoritarian in the same kind of nomenclature.

So I much prefer the term nurturant, which actually John Sanders first kind of utilized in, in his Prodigal's book.

If you've read that, I borrow that from him.

I think it fits really well there.

So those parents are, have high expectations for their children, but they're also highly responsive to their children.

So those are nurturing parents.

And then flip down to the last quadrant.

Highly responsive but low demanding parents.

That's your classic permissive parent.

So parent who pretty much lets the children kind of run the show and do the things that they want to do, set the agenda and so forth.

So for most parents, this, this question of love that's not controlling really has to do with are we falling into that authoritarian model?

Are we falling into that nurturant model?

So there's, there's a couple different kinds of ways we can think of power and control and if, if you want to be just a little bit nerdy with me.

The Bernard Loomer, who's a theologian and philosopher from 1900s, kind of defined two types of control here.

One he called linear or unilateral control, and then another that he called relational control.

And unilateral control would say that I have control over someone else if I can affect a change in them without being changed myself.

So that would be this classic model of an authoritarian parent.

It might be an authoritarian leader who says, hey, I'm going to tell you what to do, but I'm not going to change myself in response to that at all.

And Loomer proposed that maybe a better model is relational control, which says that I first want to see your situation, empathize with it, and be changed by that, and then use that to better understand where we can go together and to affect a change in you.

So I'm both changed and can exert a change on someone else.

The natural next.

The natural next step to that is you start to realize, wait a minute, this isn't about changing or being changed as much as it's about developing relationship, and that the power becomes the power to empower the other in the relationship.

So when I think about.

Back to your question.

Freely given but not controlling.

Yeah, I think.

I think not controlling means that we're empowering and we're understanding where our children are, and we're leading them to the best outcome that we can see and that they can see, kind of with that idea of co creating our relationship and our future with our children together.

All right, so what was the original inspiration for the book, other than some.

Or rather than some other means of communicating this idea, like, why a book?

Yeah, I think that's a really good question.

I think as I started to learn about open and relational theology, it just really hit me how that that aligns with parenting.

And then the more I saw other folks and the work that they're doing in open and relational theology, you find that other people find this area of science really aligns with this, or another area of science really aligns with this.

It's one of those areas of thinking about God that really lets us think about the microbiome, as John Paul might discuss or talk about, or evolution, as somebody else might talk about, or as Tracy Tucker might talk about the science of.

Of walking people into death, not from creating their death, but people who are in.

He's a hospice chaplain, so he deals with science from that standpoint.

So so many folks are recognizing that science and God Align really well through this way of looking at God.

So that's a big inspiration for me.

Yeah.

I'll try to put a link in the show notes.

We just finished a Faith in Science series back in December for those listening, so check that out.

And John Paul was on one of those episodes, so make sure you check out that playlist.

But I did want to know, is there anything else in the future, like, down the line as far as you're concerned, when it comes to like maybe your own children's church programming or something like that, or where do you see this going?

Oh, yeah, good question.

Yeah, I think I want to.

It's interesting already.

I'm able to use what I'm doing with theology and parenting in my practice on a daily basis.

Sometimes that looks like full on talking about theology and pulling that into practice.

Sometimes it is taking some of those ideas and trying to weave them in.

And that varies a lot.

I think part of it has to do with seeing someone where they are and seeing someone in their faith walk, seeing someone in their own maturity and, and then learning how can, how can I incorporate some of this to help somebody see God in a subtly different way and maybe see their parenting in a little, a little bit different way?

So that's, that's one of the ways that it has some real practical implications.

I think there are.

There, there are some other writing projects that are going on.

I, I write on substack and usually hit parenting topics and theology topics and try to balance those back and forth with each other.

So that's, that's one of my platforms and I'm starting to think about, about maybe a next book.

There's some interesting discussion that's going on in the, in the country today that's very divisive over vaccines and over the questions about should we vaccinate or not.

And there's a really interesting study that the NIH did in, I think, 2015 that looked at the five primarily primary reasons that people choose not to vaccinate their children on religious basis.

So it looks at the five religious grounds that people might oppose vaccines, which, A, I find very interesting.

B, I've seen all of those described by some of my parents, my patient's parents, and then, and then I think there's some space to start, start educating people on, wow, there's some different ways to see God that might argue differently when it comes to those, those areas that people think, oh, my church says it's not best to vaccinate, but maybe there's other ways we can look at those.

That God.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So is it.

Do you think it's possible for churches with diverse theological leanings, whether they're, you know, open theists or Lutherans or Presbyterians or Baptists or.

I could read the whole list, but we'd be here for six hours.

Right.

Do you think it's possible for those to find common ground and how we support the families in our local communities?

Yeah, I really think it is.

I think there are obviously some quadrants of that whole religious spectrum that we have in our country that becomes a bit more challenging.

But I think a wide range of churches and faiths and traditions really can come to this idea of we want to respond to our children and we want to guide them.

I think part of it that also then has to do with where are we guiding them?

And, you know, when.

When Tom Ord describes his definition of love, the end point of that is this idea of overall well being.

Other people say flourishing, other people will use other words for that.

Shalom.

But that this idea of an overall well being, if that can be a common end point both for families and churches and communities, then I think we can work together better than sometimes we've done in the past.

Sometimes it's been our community's well being as opposed to an overall well being that we want to work toward.

Yeah.

Awesome.

Awesome.

Yeah.

Do you think, though, that people from other faith traditions who may not be totally on board with open and relational theology might still benefit from reading your book about open and relational parenting?

Yeah, I really think so.

And I think so in a real practical way.

Right before the book came out, I did a little parenting seminar here in the practice and kind of hand selected a few families that I knew had an interesting and high level of faith and high level of participation in their own faith communities.

And we walk through a lot of the things that I talk about in the book and, and a lot of the theological ideas, and we get to the very end.

And one of.

One of my patients, moms, who is one of my favorite patients moms, says, okay, I just want to let you know I disagree with your theology.

And I'm like, that's totally okay, let's talk about that and see where.

And she is a member of a Presbyterian church and really struggles with the way that open and relational theology would present that God changes.

So just to clarify that, it's a little bit, you know, in open relational theology, we talk about God as having a nature that's unchanging, like God's essential nature is Love.

And that's not going to change.

But that God's experience of how God loves does change because our lives change and we face different circumstances.

We're different people now than we were three years, five years, even yesterday ago.

And so the way God responds to us in love changes over time in response.

Response to us.

That's a big concept for some people to.

To be able to grab theologically.

And sometimes it seems antithetical to what they've been taught before.

That said, right at the end of that conversation, she and I could easily agree.

Hey, but there's so many things that we've talked about here today that are really practical for me and I can really take home and I don't really have to grab every little point, at least at this point.

And us being in agreement with.

Yeah, I feel like what a lot of people struggle with when they get close to open and relational stuff is a lot of the points that people take issue with are based on the idea that God is not omnipresent in open relational.

And that is where people be like, I don't know if I can get behind that.

But it's.

Wait.

I think it's better to work from the smaller stuff.

I'm not sure if you misspoke or if I misunderstand.

I think they're okay with omnipresent, but not okay with omniscient and omnipotent.

Yeah, omniscience.

Okay.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah.

And his relation to time and stuff is like, what?

Well, why does he have to change if he already knows?

That's because an open relationally doesn't.

Yeah, yeah.

Which to critique Tom Ward.

I was gonna say not to critique Tom Ward, but to critique Com Ward.

He knows I like to do that.

He's aware.

I don't actually think it's about what God can't do as much as it is about a philosophical view of reality.

So I think it less has to do with how they're viewing God and God's ability and more to do with what reality is.

If we're going to say reality means the future doesn't exist yet, an open and relational theology has to be true.

If we're saying the future already exists, then God must know what the future is because he knows everything.

So I actually think you can hold omniscience if you're going to say that the future is unknowable because he knows everything there is to know.

And then that gets into weird etymological arguments that Tom is smarter than me.

On and then tells me why I'm dumb, and then I continue to hold my dumb beliefs.

Yeah, that's what Tom's for.

I'm like Tom's favorite punching bag.

Joshua.

I think you just said that really well.

I think that's exactly right.

Thanks.

If your first point is the future doesn't exist, or at least the future only exists as possibilities, if you want to say it that way.

And then the future is unknowable and God inherently doesn't know the future, the flip of that is the challenge of if the future does exist and God completely knows the future, then how is it not a deterministic view?

And how do our choices, actions, decisions matter whatsoever?

And then, just to clarify, I think this is.

I think this is exactly what you meant, T.J. but, yeah, so God in open relational theology, God is omnipresent and would be everywhere, but just would not be in the future from the way that you were describing it.

Yeah, I end up talking to Tom about that pretty much every time I see him now.

So it's a lot of fun.

Yeah, it's a lot of fun.

But is there anything that you feel like that our listeners should know about you or your podcast or your book?

What does the whole church need to know about Chris Hansen?

Sure.

Yeah.

I think I'll go back to the book for just a minute and just kind of COVID some of the things that I cover there because I think there's a lot of useful information.

The very first chapter, I spend quite a bit of time looking at parenting research and parenting typography that I kind of described briefly here, what's been done over the last 50 years or so in, in the world of parenting, both how that looks on that typography and then how that might apply to different cultures, how it applies in different circumstances and so forth.

So that.

That's heavy on.

On parenting.

Then I move into kind of an interesting look at if we imagined God as any one of those types of parents.

So if we imagine God as, as an authoritarian parent, then what kind of theology would go with that?

And then, and then we do the same thing with what would God be if God was a disengaged parent, and what would God be if God was a permissive, and what would our theology look like?

And then ultimately, in the third chapter, I spend quite a bit of time on open and relational theology looking at, okay, if God is a nurturant parent, then then what does that God look like?

And we, and we kind of walk through a lot of those Pillars of Open Relational Theology.

Fourth chapter is a deep dive into the, into the question that you ask about kind of what was wrong with some of the church based parenting stuff that I was running into back years ago and that you can still find out there.

If you just type into Amazon Christian Parenting, you can still still find a lot of that same.

Same stuff.

So both Dobson and then, and then some of his followers kind of fall under that.

And, and so we kind of talk about that.

And then in the fifth chapter, we talk about an open and relational parenting approach and really apply this first very high level to parenting, kind of thinking about general ideas.

And then the last chapter, which was not part of my dissertation but was added just for the book, is the six.

The sixth chapter really deals with some practical examples and walks people through.

How would you practically apply this in your life with your kids?

All right, so do, do you ever.

Like, you ever have a patient parent and you're like, you know, I think you should check out this book?

You know, I'm not shy about that.

Like, we have little bulletin boards up in our, in our exam rooms and all of my exam rooms have, have it up in my bulletin, on the bulletin board words.

And the book came out in August, so, so now we've gotten to a point where several of them have bought it.

And I walked in on Friday and I was kind of flabbergasted because this, this mom said, well, I've got your book and I'm reading through it.

I'm really enjoying it.

And I'm like, okay, that's great.

That means you don't hate my theology.

And, and you're getting something out of it.

And so then that led to a whole conversation about some other things.

So no, I think some, some of them are finding it to be a helpful resource on, on a lot of different bases.

Awesome.

Yeah, nice.

So is it, is it easier now?

Do you think the book makes it easier to be a podiatrist?

Can you just.

Every once in a while you're like, oh, you have my book, right?

It's in chapter two.

You assign your patients homework.

It's actually really interesting, you know, having it out there.

It does give a landing spot.

And so does the, the, so does the substack kind of gives a landing spot.

Like one of my substack articles just walks through the, the parenting quadrants.

And so I, I can link that, I can refer to it, I can refer somebody there just, just about that.

And then where, where we talked about Loomer and his two Conceptions of power.

I've got two specific substack articles that just came out that are kind of talking about that.

So I'm trying to let, let some of those ideas start coming out in substack as well.

So we've got a few different reference points so that people can grab onto a single idea or they can get the book and kind of grab onto the larger, larger scale idea as well.

That's awesome.

And we'll, we'll try to link the substack in book and everything in the show notes as well.

Yeah, perfect.

Sounds great.

Yeah.

So one thing we do like to always do at the end of our episodes is just to ask for a single tangible action.

Something our listeners could go do right now that would help better engender Christian unity in the world, you know, at large.

Yeah, something they could stop and do something physical or I guess it doesn't have to be physical, but something they can actually go, you know, right now, not like, listen in general.

Yeah, tangible.

Yeah, something tangible they could do to engender Christian unity.

I'm going to start just in the family because, because I think that's, that's where it starts in this relation and it relates to, to where I am.

Yeah.

And, and I think the first thing might be go and see where your children were today.

Try to understand how they felt about what they did today and see if you can have a conversation with them about what that makes them want to do next.

So I think I'm trying to encourage this idea of empathizing, sympathizing, and also taking input from the kids and saying, where are we?

Where are we as a family going to go next?

And how can I get your input as part of that?

And I think that moves the church farther toward unity because I think if we can move the family further toward unity, then we can move the church further toward unity as well.

All right, so you, so what do you think we would see change in the world around us if everyone started doing that?

Are like, is the family diner going to come back in a big way?

Is Denny's going to take over the world?

I don't know if it's going to be, quote, family values in that way, but I think we're going to see and, and the data actually says we're going to see stronger children who are better equipped to make their own decisions as they move forward.

Sometimes I talk about, you know, a seventh grader, a 12, 12 year old, 13 year old is just in the process where they're starting to Say, I want to make my own decisions, and I want to.

I want to kind of determine my own way.

And if the parent will sit back and think, wow, by the time they get to college, I really want them to be able to do that.

I want them to be able to go off to college and be able to.

To decide when I'm going to go to class and what food I'm going to eat and am I going to do my laundry and all of those things that you have to do.

Well, that's a gradual process, and it's a gradual process of guiding them to gradually more freedom in those decisions.

And it's going to take those kind of interactive conversations to be able to understand where they are and how can we move them closer to that.

And if we are listening to our children and guiding them with relational guidance, then we are going to create kids that are better prepared to hit college, to hit young professional life, to hit communities, and be able to participate in their churches and their communities in healthier ways.

All right, so good stuff.

Yeah, I like that a lot.

I.

Mine was actually pretty recent, the transition from, you know, not.

Or having to do my own laundry.

So that was rough.

Doing it all at once.

I didn't have to.

There's no weaning process.

I was just like, man, I. I have to clean my clothes.

This is messed up.

I will not name my college roommate.

But he.

He just kept going to buy more clothes so that he didn't have to wash them.

And so, yeah, hey, if I was rich, I probably would have done the same thing.

Yeah, I mean, I think he just went buying clothes.

I think that was his problem.

Yeah, If I'd had a credit card, I might have done that.

Yeah, I think he did.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

But before we wrap up, we like to do what we call our God moment, where we just ask everyone to share a moment they saw God in recently, whether it be in a blessing or a challenge, a mode of worship, a curse, whatever it might be.

Where have you seen God at?

And I always like to make Josh go first to give the rest of us more time to think.

So, Josh, do you have a God moment for us this week?

Yeah.

Work is a struggle sometimes, and recently it's been a lot of struggle, and I've been really irritated, thinking, man, there's all this stuff I'm going to have to do that I don't want to have to do.

If only we had a manager that could work these specific hours, make my life so much easier then that day.

Someone came in who used to be manager at Chipotle and applied, but said, I only want to work these specific hours.

And I was like, oh, perfect.

That's exactly what I just kind of was hoping we had.

So just worked out really weirdly good.

Yeah.

You know, I've had the exact opposite experience.

Pretty much every time I've thought that.

Somebody with hours you don't need.

Yeah, every time.

Yeah, perfect.

Every time.

They're like, I'm gonna work your shifts.

I was like, they're mine.

I work, too.

But for me, my God.

Moment.

I woke up this morning, my dad texted me, like, right after I woke up, which is, you know, convenient.

You know, I don't like to miss texts, so if he's gonna politely wait until I'm awake somehow, that's awesome.

But he texted me to ask if I'd spoken to my mom, and, like, no, of course not.

You know, if I just woke up.

But she went to the hospital last night with a GI bleed, and instead of, you know, telling everyone I'm in the hospital at, like, midnight, she just wanted to wait.

She made him swear to secrecy.

But she's okay?

God, you know, as okay as you can be with a GI bleed.

Yeah, but she's fine.

She's nowhere we haven't been before.

And I'm grateful that she felt secure enough with the hospital to wait to tell us because she knows she's not going to die.

Although you would have preferred her still tell you, I assume.

I would have preferred to have known when it happened.

Yeah.

I was awake.

I could have went there.

Yeah, but if any of my parents are listening, I know before it happens.

Text me before the doctor tells you.

You have it beforehand.

I'll be there when it happens.

Yeah, but they're actually.

She's in the same hospital as her mom currently, and I think she's trying to not let her find out.

Says to not worry her mom.

That's funny, actually.

Which is pretty funny.

You know, I mean, it sucks, but also, they're both in the hospital, but.

Yeah, but it's pretty funny that she's not trying to.

I'm just thankful that they are both being cared for in a place that they trust.

Like, if all these humans are just characters on a sitcom, it would be hilarious.

It would be hilarious.

You got to see it when it happens, you know?

Yeah.

Dr. Hanson, do you have a God moment for us?

Yeah, I think.

I think I'm just gonna go to last night.

So our.

Our church kind of functionalize many churches with with small groups.

We call them story groups because the idea is to share.

Share the story of your life with other people.

And, and we lead one of those groups.

And, and we had a new member to our group last night who I. I've known.

She's a single young lady at our church that, that expressed that she wanted to come and, and she fit in so incredibly well.

And, and it wasn't very long that she was throwing in comments and, and, and just was part of the conversation as if she had been there a long time.

So just kind of, kind of, wow.

A really nice new relationship that I think we'll all benefit from and I'll get to learn from her and hopefully she gets to learn a little bit from us.

Nice.

It's awesome to meet a new group that you click with immediately.

That's.

That's rare for a lot of people.

But thank you so much for your time.

Thank you.

If you're listening for your time, please consider sharing the episode with a friend if you liked it or an enemy if you liked it or didn't like it.

We're cousins, no matter what you thought, especially your cousins.

Super helpful.

We encourage strong familial systems here.

And if you are listening on the YouTube channel, hit, like hit subscribe.

If you're not listening on YouTube, rate and view the show.

Yeah.

Wherever you are listening.

That's Super Helpful on YouTube.

Put us out there.

Comment or whatever you're supposed to say.

Yeah, yeah.

Tell us what you think about Josh's shirt.

Oh, that's right.

Ring the bell.

Yeah, that's what they say.

That's what the YouTube.

I like this color green.

I accidentally got two shirts and I was gonna give one of them away, but then I just like this green on me a lot, so I'm not giving it away.

Yeah, more shirts means less laundry.

True.

We learned that in the episode.

But also, guys, try to remember to check out the other shows.

Lansalle Podcast Network link is down below.

You can check out Letting a Thunder with youh Chris Nashley.

You checking out My Seminary Life with Brandon Knight or your Matter Matters with Pastor Will Rose and Pastor Thomas Johnston.

It's a.

A little educational miniseries we did with the in association with the elca.

So it's good stuff.

All right.

And we do hope you enjoyed it.

Coming up, we'll be interviewing Russ Petrus once again to discuss another Catholic organization that he helps with called Future Church.

And then we're going to be having on the one and only mentioned many times in this show, Dr. Thomas J.

Board back with us to discuss how our views have changed or grown over the last couple of years.

I think he'll be sorely disappointed in me, as always.

And finally, at the end of season one, Francis Chan will be on the show.

Probably he doesn't know about it.

Maybe it'll probably happen eventually.

If someone does tell him about it.

Maybe it could be you.

You tell him about it.

Listener.

We believe in you, listener.

Smokey the Bear.