1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,840 Welcome back to Data Driven, the podcast where we dive deep into 2 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:07,520 data science, AI, and all the intricacies of the tech world 3 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:11,040 because who doesn't love an existential crisis over machine learning on a 4 00:00:11,040 --> 00:00:14,655 Monday morning? Today, our special guest is Candice 5 00:00:14,655 --> 00:00:18,415 Gillhooley, an industry powerhouse blending technical savvy with 6 00:00:18,415 --> 00:00:22,255 marketing insight. She's here to chat about her latest venture 7 00:00:22,255 --> 00:00:25,935 in sentient marketing. Yes. That's right. Marketing that 8 00:00:25,935 --> 00:00:29,320 thinks and feels in its own way. Together with Frank and 9 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:33,000 Andy, we'll explore the crossroads of data, AI, and 10 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:36,680 marketing psychology. Expect revelations on the creative 11 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:40,040 potential of AI, the nuances of neurodiversity in the 12 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:43,420 workforce, and maybe a few day tours through nineties nostalgia. 13 00:00:44,145 --> 00:00:47,125 Grab a cup of coffee, and let's get data driven. 14 00:00:51,824 --> 00:00:55,605 Well, hello, and welcome back to Data Driven, the podcast. We explore the emergent 15 00:00:55,745 --> 00:00:59,524 fields of data science, AI, and data engineering. 16 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:04,620 With me today, I don't have that catchy, like, information 17 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:08,440 superhighway thing, but, like, I think the information superhighway thing goes way 18 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:11,020 over kids' heads today. Yeah. So 19 00:01:13,325 --> 00:01:17,005 so today is we're recording this on November 4th, and it's the 20 00:01:17,005 --> 00:01:20,685 1st week in November, which, long time listeners of the show 21 00:01:20,685 --> 00:01:24,525 know that Andy and I kinda treat like New Year's, because 22 00:01:24,525 --> 00:01:28,329 it kinda closes out the crazy busy time of year, at least 23 00:01:28,329 --> 00:01:32,009 for me, and then starts going into the 24 00:01:32,009 --> 00:01:35,850 planning for next year for a lot of things. Although I have 3 kids 25 00:01:35,850 --> 00:01:39,689 now, you know, one almost able to drive and 26 00:01:39,689 --> 00:01:42,945 one still in diapers and one in the middle. So I don't really have a 27 00:01:42,945 --> 00:01:46,545 quiet time of the year anymore. But, 28 00:01:46,865 --> 00:01:50,545 that having been said, this has been a wild 29 00:01:50,545 --> 00:01:54,164 year, and I'm glad to see 2024 in the rear view mirror 30 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:59,120 for a number of reasons. How about you, Andy? How's things going with 31 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:02,880 you? Things are going well, Frank. Yeah. I agree with 32 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:06,020 you. This is, it's a good time to transition 33 00:02:06,655 --> 00:02:09,294 because you get a bit of a jump on the New Year, the whole New 34 00:02:09,294 --> 00:02:12,735 Year thing. And, you know, it's hard to do starting 35 00:02:12,735 --> 00:02:16,275 over stuff, right after the holidays. I mean, 36 00:02:16,655 --> 00:02:20,095 I get it. And it's kinda for me, it's kinda worked out as having 2 37 00:02:20,095 --> 00:02:23,840 New Years, when we do it this way. Yeah. So I get a 38 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:27,360 lot of prep work done for the January 1st New 39 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:30,800 Year. And it was you told me it was your mom or grandma. I forget 40 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:34,640 who. It was my grandma. Yeah. Yeah. And I said, that's that's 41 00:02:34,640 --> 00:02:38,295 a good idea. I'm gonna do that too. It worked out pretty well. And and 42 00:02:38,295 --> 00:02:41,894 and it also is a nice checkpoint because when everyone talks about their New Year's 43 00:02:41,894 --> 00:02:45,655 resolutions, you have 60 days. Like, well, did I really do all the 44 00:02:45,655 --> 00:02:49,334 things I said I was gonna do? Or did I 45 00:02:49,334 --> 00:02:53,030 not? But one of the one of the shining bright lights, there were 2 46 00:02:53,030 --> 00:02:56,570 real, I think, accomplishments for me personally this year. 47 00:02:56,950 --> 00:03:00,730 One is the adoption was finalized. 2, I 48 00:03:00,790 --> 00:03:04,230 co wrote a book and it's actually published. And that is 49 00:03:04,230 --> 00:03:07,765 our guest today is Candice Ghahouli, 50 00:03:08,465 --> 00:03:11,845 and it's a good story on how that's pronounced. And, 51 00:03:13,345 --> 00:03:14,005 it was 52 00:03:17,860 --> 00:03:21,540 you the actual print copy of it. There is a second 53 00:03:21,540 --> 00:03:25,220 edition in the works. So because this is a 54 00:03:25,220 --> 00:03:28,840 fast moving field. But welcome to the show, Candace. How's it going? 55 00:03:29,060 --> 00:03:32,360 It's going great. Thank you so much for having me. 56 00:03:33,115 --> 00:03:36,955 Yeah. To just to speak to kind of November and 57 00:03:36,955 --> 00:03:40,795 new year's, it's true. I I was it's funny. I was looking over 58 00:03:40,795 --> 00:03:44,235 my my resume the other day, and I noticed 59 00:03:44,235 --> 00:03:47,995 that when there were transitions, they tended to happen 60 00:03:47,995 --> 00:03:51,790 in in November. There's something about that 61 00:03:51,790 --> 00:03:54,689 very much of like, almost like a new year type of thing. 62 00:03:55,709 --> 00:03:59,390 And I think that, you know, once everyone is kind of running 63 00:03:59,390 --> 00:04:02,905 towards Thanksgiving, it's mentally 64 00:04:03,125 --> 00:04:06,965 it's when they start to slow down and say, wait a 65 00:04:06,965 --> 00:04:10,325 second, I got Thanksgiving and then Christmas and new years and 66 00:04:10,325 --> 00:04:13,385 family. And this is my time to kind of 67 00:04:14,270 --> 00:04:18,110 take a break, take a pause, and, you know, think about 68 00:04:18,110 --> 00:04:21,570 what happened this year and the changes 69 00:04:21,870 --> 00:04:25,570 in positive ways that you wanna see in the in the upcoming 70 00:04:25,630 --> 00:04:29,169 year. So I completely agree with you on that sentiment. 71 00:04:30,055 --> 00:04:33,355 Absolutely. Yeah. And it's, you know, I think historically, 72 00:04:33,815 --> 00:04:37,415 you know, most civilizations have been kind of agrarian in nature and 73 00:04:37,415 --> 00:04:41,014 harvest time is, you know, roughly this time of year, I guess, depending on your 74 00:04:41,014 --> 00:04:44,680 latitude. Yeah. In the northern hemisphere, I don't wanna leave out our 75 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,580 friends in in Latin America or Africa or 76 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,720 Australia, New Zealand. But this has always been that kind of, 77 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:55,400 like, thing. And, historically, the Jewish tradition they have, the new 78 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:59,165 year is in September ish. And 79 00:04:59,705 --> 00:05:03,545 I actually looked into this. So All Saints Day was kinda treated 80 00:05:03,545 --> 00:05:06,985 like a New Year's for my grandmother. Like, that's was a big deal, big 81 00:05:06,985 --> 00:05:10,745 dinner, a whole thing. But it actually has its origins in a 82 00:05:10,745 --> 00:05:14,380 pre Christian tradition where basically 83 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:18,280 the harvest were done. They're all getting gearing up for winter, and 84 00:05:18,280 --> 00:05:22,120 everybody would just kinda plan, like, how they're gonna survive the winter 85 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,880 and how to get ready for spring. Like, this is going back 1000 of 86 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:29,385 years. So it's kind of like a good thing. And and for me personally, the 87 00:05:29,385 --> 00:05:32,845 2 older kids have birthdays in late December, in the second half of December. 88 00:05:34,425 --> 00:05:38,185 So the whole idea of getting anything done other than 89 00:05:38,185 --> 00:05:41,970 survival in December is kind 90 00:05:41,970 --> 00:05:45,190 of a joke. Right? So it actually works out pretty well. 91 00:05:45,730 --> 00:05:49,570 But, the, the thing I was excited 92 00:05:49,570 --> 00:05:53,250 about when Candice talked to me about the book was, you know, in my 93 00:05:53,250 --> 00:05:57,065 role as in in sales and selling AI 94 00:05:57,065 --> 00:06:00,585 solutions. Right? And I still do that right now. I'm a technical 95 00:06:00,585 --> 00:06:04,045 marketing manager. So kind of like what Microsoft would call developer 96 00:06:04,105 --> 00:06:06,365 advocacy, evangelism, that sort of thing. 97 00:06:09,010 --> 00:06:12,470 Is there's a lot of marketing folks 98 00:06:12,930 --> 00:06:15,510 who know they need to use AI, 99 00:06:16,770 --> 00:06:20,450 but they're not really sure how to use it. Yeah. I 100 00:06:20,450 --> 00:06:23,295 think the why I think they get why they need to use it. But even 101 00:06:23,295 --> 00:06:26,895 then, the why is so they get keep their keep their companies afloat, 102 00:06:26,895 --> 00:06:30,575 right, and to stay relevant. But, like, you know, and I think, you 103 00:06:30,575 --> 00:06:34,415 know, I think what's really important to ask Candace speak to this is that 104 00:06:34,415 --> 00:06:38,000 we really wanted to have case 105 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:41,540 studies and examples on why this is important. Right? 106 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:44,560 What are your thoughts, Candace? Because I know you picked a bunch of the case 107 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:48,240 studies. Well, exactly. Like, so remember first, we 108 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:51,780 started with Target, and the idea is so 109 00:06:52,595 --> 00:06:56,055 We, we, we understand the why as a marketer, we understand 110 00:06:57,074 --> 00:07:00,775 why we want to be able to talk to our audience in 111 00:07:00,835 --> 00:07:04,055 the most targeted and precise and 112 00:07:04,595 --> 00:07:08,130 way that really resonates with them. We understand 113 00:07:08,130 --> 00:07:11,890 that we understand that there's a lot of data out there. That's, 114 00:07:11,890 --> 00:07:15,490 that's gonna come our way. And we can get, we can 115 00:07:15,490 --> 00:07:18,610 drown in the data, which we don't wanna do. And we're a little afraid of 116 00:07:18,610 --> 00:07:21,910 the data, but if we think about working with it 117 00:07:22,655 --> 00:07:26,175 and, and kind of forming this relationship where we're saying, 118 00:07:26,175 --> 00:07:29,935 look, I want to understand what segment of my 119 00:07:29,935 --> 00:07:33,634 audience would respond to a, I want to understand, 120 00:07:34,095 --> 00:07:37,710 you know, what would convert people from having an 121 00:07:37,710 --> 00:07:41,389 item in their car to actually getting them to purchase with this group 122 00:07:41,389 --> 00:07:44,449 B. Okay. And using the data 123 00:07:45,069 --> 00:07:48,669 to set up the right kind of queries where you're able to 124 00:07:48,669 --> 00:07:52,485 pull out the behavioral platform that these 125 00:07:52,485 --> 00:07:55,845 people are working on would and then hand it to the 126 00:07:55,845 --> 00:07:59,685 marketers, then the marketers are able to under they already know the messages 127 00:07:59,685 --> 00:08:03,365 they wanna send. They just wanna be able to send the messages to 128 00:08:03,365 --> 00:08:06,345 the right group. So it makes sense. 129 00:08:07,730 --> 00:08:11,430 And that's That's true. Have to work together. And historically, 130 00:08:11,570 --> 00:08:15,010 on this, obviously, I have a great relationship with the marketing teams at Red Hat. 131 00:08:15,010 --> 00:08:17,890 And I'm not just saying that because that's where I am now. Like, it's legit. 132 00:08:17,890 --> 00:08:21,730 Like, I I really do. But historically, marketing and IT have not 133 00:08:21,730 --> 00:08:25,555 really been on the same page. And my favorite example 134 00:08:25,695 --> 00:08:29,235 of this is, Dilbert cartoon. 135 00:08:29,855 --> 00:08:33,535 Whenever he portrays marketing, they're all dressed in togas, and they all 136 00:08:33,535 --> 00:08:37,375 have alcohol. And it says the science says welcome to marketing 137 00:08:37,375 --> 00:08:38,355 to drink minimum, 138 00:08:41,020 --> 00:08:43,679 which I think is kind of funny. But, like, I mean, 139 00:08:44,940 --> 00:08:48,620 it's not quite adversarial, but it's not quite cordial 140 00:08:48,620 --> 00:08:52,415 either. And I think that one of the things I wanted 141 00:08:52,415 --> 00:08:56,175 people to when they read the book, they they kind of walk away from 142 00:08:56,175 --> 00:08:59,935 it is you have to work together. Right? And I 143 00:08:59,935 --> 00:09:03,295 can only speak as a technologist. Like, historically, Kent. Now I know you're kind of 144 00:09:03,295 --> 00:09:06,595 an exception, Candace, because you've been marketing for technical companies. 145 00:09:07,750 --> 00:09:11,510 But so you're kind of, like, you're kind of one of us, kind of. You 146 00:09:11,510 --> 00:09:15,190 know what I mean? Like, that sounded really bad. I mean, I meant 147 00:09:15,190 --> 00:09:18,870 it I meant it in the most possible best way. All good. No. But I 148 00:09:18,870 --> 00:09:22,305 really did. But, like, in the marketing field, how 149 00:09:22,305 --> 00:09:25,125 how how do marketers perceive IT? 150 00:09:26,305 --> 00:09:30,065 See, IT and wrongly, I 151 00:09:30,065 --> 00:09:33,445 think that marketers don't understand the actual creativity 152 00:09:33,825 --> 00:09:37,560 that happens in the IT 153 00:09:37,560 --> 00:09:40,779 function. And they think that it's very 154 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:44,779 static and super logical 155 00:09:45,399 --> 00:09:49,240 and, you know, just numbers and queries and 156 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:52,575 computer programming. It doesn't really 157 00:09:52,795 --> 00:09:55,775 relate to a marketer who is 158 00:09:57,355 --> 00:10:01,115 emotive and creative and analytical where 159 00:10:01,115 --> 00:10:04,875 needed to drive a message. So they don't really 160 00:10:04,875 --> 00:10:08,410 see it as the same kind of person that why 161 00:10:08,410 --> 00:10:11,769 would, you know, potentially a non linear 162 00:10:11,769 --> 00:10:15,450 thinker get along really well with a linear thinker like that. And how could 163 00:10:15,450 --> 00:10:19,209 they work together? But the point is they can. And the point is 164 00:10:19,209 --> 00:10:22,805 that they're more alike than they are different. And 165 00:10:22,945 --> 00:10:25,685 what I have learned over, you know, 166 00:10:26,705 --> 00:10:30,465 maybe the last 10, 15 years working with so many 167 00:10:30,465 --> 00:10:33,980 subject matter experts in, in a variety 168 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:37,340 of tech sectors is how incredibly creative, 169 00:10:38,680 --> 00:10:41,820 these engineers and IT people are 170 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:46,120 because they're creating. I mean, like, it's it's you don't think of 171 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:49,345 it that way, but they're creating something and then they're trying to 172 00:10:49,805 --> 00:10:53,245 show everybody what it can do and they want everyone to get 173 00:10:53,245 --> 00:10:56,305 involved with it. And that kind of innovation 174 00:10:57,085 --> 00:11:00,445 is in fact very similar to the kind of innovation that goes on in 175 00:11:00,445 --> 00:11:04,080 marketers. I I love the way you've 176 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:07,460 described it because the analogy that's running through my head 177 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:11,520 is that of definitely art and 178 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:15,280 different mediums. So some people work in oil, others 179 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:18,899 work in marble. And, you know, I just never made 180 00:11:18,899 --> 00:11:21,655 that analogy before the way you just explained that. So, 181 00:11:22,435 --> 00:11:25,955 I I really do like that. And it definitely is different types of 182 00:11:25,955 --> 00:11:29,175 creativity. And then when I compare that with, 183 00:11:29,769 --> 00:11:33,610 you know, working with creative people, I'm a I'm an engineer. 184 00:11:33,610 --> 00:11:36,410 I feel the same way you do. I think it's a great description of it. 185 00:11:36,410 --> 00:11:40,010 It's very creative work. But in working with other creative people, 186 00:11:40,010 --> 00:11:43,465 even other engineers, there are often clashes of 187 00:11:43,465 --> 00:11:47,305 personalities because, you know, there's I don't know what it 188 00:11:47,305 --> 00:11:50,845 is about creative people, but it's not the same 189 00:11:51,465 --> 00:11:54,905 as, you know, some other classes of personality, but it's 190 00:11:54,905 --> 00:11:58,439 definitely something there that that happens. So 191 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:02,019 and I see that. That's I think that's why Dilbert's so funny, 192 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:05,620 about that when he does it. And, you know, Scott Adams, 193 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:10,420 did share some of his experiences from corporate America. 194 00:12:10,560 --> 00:12:14,085 And one of my other favorite ones is whenever 195 00:12:14,085 --> 00:12:17,765 the, whenever Dilbert was punished, he was 196 00:12:17,765 --> 00:12:21,605 sent to accounting by by 197 00:12:21,605 --> 00:12:24,840 Phil, the prince of insufficient light. And, 198 00:12:25,540 --> 00:12:29,300 yeah, very, very interesting stuff. Very creative. Speaking of 199 00:12:29,300 --> 00:12:32,820 creative, very creative ways of of portraying that. And, 200 00:12:33,140 --> 00:12:36,820 yeah, because everybody knows engineers and accountants. That's a 201 00:12:36,980 --> 00:12:40,655 that that is a clash, as well. My I'll 202 00:12:40,655 --> 00:12:43,875 say this and I'll shut up. My first CPA once told me that 203 00:12:44,495 --> 00:12:48,275 if I'm ever audited, he said take your degree with you. 204 00:12:48,895 --> 00:12:52,570 Just everybody knows engineers can't can't do accounting. They 205 00:12:52,570 --> 00:12:56,410 can't do accounting. Love that description, Candice. Oh, thank you. 206 00:12:56,410 --> 00:12:59,930 Thank you very much, Andy. I appreciate that. And we didn't do a proper intro 207 00:12:59,930 --> 00:13:02,970 for Candice because Candice has been worked in a number of, 208 00:13:03,370 --> 00:13:07,215 great highly technical organizations. She was marketing at 209 00:13:07,215 --> 00:13:10,815 the Linux Foundation at Manning, and I know I'm leaving a few 210 00:13:10,815 --> 00:13:13,075 off. I know you did some evangelism, 211 00:13:14,815 --> 00:13:18,175 and marketing for some start ups. Yes. I 212 00:13:18,175 --> 00:13:21,770 I much enjoy the startup mentality, you know, 213 00:13:21,770 --> 00:13:25,310 working with the engineer that has all that 214 00:13:25,850 --> 00:13:29,690 exciting creative electricity and then figuring out how 215 00:13:29,690 --> 00:13:33,385 we're going to go to market with with their product. I worked with a 216 00:13:33,385 --> 00:13:37,144 Kupunzu Focus, Kfocus.org, which is a 217 00:13:37,144 --> 00:13:40,764 Linux first laptop, brilliant 218 00:13:40,825 --> 00:13:44,264 for Linux super users and those who were involved in 219 00:13:44,264 --> 00:13:48,110 machine learning, NLP and 220 00:13:48,110 --> 00:13:51,570 AI. It really has this ability to handle modules. 221 00:13:53,070 --> 00:13:56,750 The CPU in it is just out of this world and it's 222 00:13:56,750 --> 00:14:00,555 really able to help engineers of certain types of, of 223 00:14:00,555 --> 00:14:04,395 in certain sectors tremendously. So yeah, I'm, I'm 224 00:14:04,395 --> 00:14:08,235 a total geek. I tell everybody I was 225 00:14:08,235 --> 00:14:11,835 raised by an IBM inventor who was a TJ 226 00:14:11,835 --> 00:14:14,975 Watson Fellow, Doctor. Rudolf Rechtschaffin. 227 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:20,000 And my whole life was IBM and computers. I 228 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:23,520 mean, my dad came home with our first computer in 229 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:26,420 1983 under his arm. And, 230 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,975 I tell everybody that and so this really will date me, but, you know, I, 231 00:14:31,055 --> 00:14:34,495 you know, I look great. What can I say? But I used to play this 232 00:14:34,495 --> 00:14:38,274 game decathlon on this IBM computer in 83 233 00:14:38,334 --> 00:14:42,115 when I originally was Bruce Jenner from the US. 234 00:14:42,574 --> 00:14:46,210 Right? I remember that game. I know. I remember that 235 00:14:46,210 --> 00:14:49,670 game. It was, I think they ported it to the Commodore 236 00:14:49,810 --> 00:14:52,710 64 at one point. Okay. So 237 00:14:53,330 --> 00:14:57,090 Yeah. That's cool. Well, I love tech. I love 238 00:14:57,090 --> 00:15:00,745 tech. I've always loved tech, but I'm more of, I'm 239 00:15:00,745 --> 00:15:04,584 not a programmer. I'm, I'm a, I'm a non linear creative on 240 00:15:04,584 --> 00:15:08,425 the other side in terms of sales and marketing. And, but that's why I 241 00:15:08,425 --> 00:15:12,045 really wanted to create this book with you, Frank, because 242 00:15:12,380 --> 00:15:16,140 I felt that the kind of the, the marriage of the two sides, 243 00:15:16,140 --> 00:15:19,500 the marketing side and the it data driven 244 00:15:19,500 --> 00:15:23,339 side would really make sense to what the 245 00:15:23,339 --> 00:15:26,855 capabilities moving forward are going to be. And that 246 00:15:26,855 --> 00:15:30,154 marketers don't, like, don't have to be afraid of 247 00:15:30,535 --> 00:15:33,514 AI, but you should be a little bit more technically literate 248 00:15:34,615 --> 00:15:38,454 because it helps you. Absolutely. And I think I I wanna double 249 00:15:38,454 --> 00:15:42,170 click on something you said earlier. Like, you know, they may not understand each 250 00:15:42,170 --> 00:15:45,710 other, but I think in the years to come, arguably already, 251 00:15:46,410 --> 00:15:50,170 they need each other. You know, to 252 00:15:50,170 --> 00:15:53,790 move forward, any organization that does not 253 00:15:54,725 --> 00:15:58,405 that does their marketing based on kind of, you know, old fashioned ways 254 00:15:58,405 --> 00:16:01,385 or pre technology or pre leveraging data and AI 255 00:16:02,565 --> 00:16:06,245 is really at a severe disadvantage, to companies that 256 00:16:06,245 --> 00:16:08,025 do that. Right? You know, 257 00:16:11,100 --> 00:16:14,620 And whether it's you know, I think a lot of people think 258 00:16:14,620 --> 00:16:18,380 marketing today has been influenced by, you know, social 259 00:16:18,380 --> 00:16:21,980 media and influencers and kind of doing those types of relationships. Well, I think 260 00:16:21,980 --> 00:16:25,635 that's true. I think there's a lot more subtle marketing 261 00:16:25,695 --> 00:16:29,535 going on based on behavioral data. What do you say about 262 00:16:29,535 --> 00:16:33,315 that, Candice? I completely agree with you. I mean, 263 00:16:34,015 --> 00:16:37,680 I just wanna say to the influencers, this weekend, I watched 264 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,980 the documentary about Martha Stewart 265 00:16:41,839 --> 00:16:45,600 that was on Netflix, and I cannot recommend 266 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:49,200 it more. It was oh my goodness. I 267 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:53,024 mean, I knew she was smart. She went to Barnard 268 00:16:53,024 --> 00:16:56,865 in the seventies. I went to Barnard in in in the in 269 00:16:56,865 --> 00:17:00,705 the late nineties. Like, you know, she was she was one of the first women 270 00:17:00,705 --> 00:17:03,765 on Wall Street before they even had bathrooms for women, 271 00:17:04,410 --> 00:17:08,170 Like, really tremendously interesting stuff. And 272 00:17:08,170 --> 00:17:11,950 in fact, if you think about it, she was the original influencer 273 00:17:12,490 --> 00:17:16,170 before there were issues. In a lot of ways. Yeah. I mean, and 274 00:17:16,170 --> 00:17:20,015 and people don't realize she was an investment banker. Yes. 275 00:17:20,714 --> 00:17:24,395 And she actually worked at Merrill Lynch. And I I had when I worked at 276 00:17:24,395 --> 00:17:26,655 Merrill Lynch, as a wee lad, 277 00:17:28,474 --> 00:17:31,915 and, there were a lot of people that remember her. 278 00:17:31,915 --> 00:17:35,549 Like, you know, they they were like, you know, she was 279 00:17:35,549 --> 00:17:39,010 like, she they're like, she's one tough cookie. Like, that was kinda her. 280 00:17:39,390 --> 00:17:42,510 And smart. You know what I mean? To survive on Wall Street then as a 281 00:17:42,510 --> 00:17:46,270 woman, I think you needed to have Yeah. You couldn't 282 00:17:46,270 --> 00:17:50,115 just get away on smarts. You had to get be also very tough. So 283 00:17:50,115 --> 00:17:53,955 she was definitely very tough. So I know that you asked me 284 00:17:53,955 --> 00:17:57,475 about behavioral data. I'm sorry. We did we you know, you you've listened to the 285 00:17:57,475 --> 00:18:01,235 show enough, Candice. No. Like, we we do, you know, the the 286 00:18:01,235 --> 00:18:04,669 tangents and offerings. Focused. So focused. 287 00:18:04,970 --> 00:18:08,809 It's almost obnoxious. But what I wanted to mention, which 288 00:18:08,809 --> 00:18:12,350 was so interesting, is it, so when she started as the original 289 00:18:12,490 --> 00:18:16,090 influencer and her whole idea of, of showing people how to 290 00:18:16,090 --> 00:18:19,815 entertain, Okay. She was feeding into a 291 00:18:19,815 --> 00:18:23,035 behavior of many 292 00:18:23,495 --> 00:18:26,955 women out there who were working, 293 00:18:27,735 --> 00:18:31,355 were also parents, but wanted to 294 00:18:31,770 --> 00:18:35,610 do something that felt significant in 295 00:18:35,610 --> 00:18:39,370 the family setting. And so she fed on 296 00:18:39,370 --> 00:18:43,070 a behavior that other people hadn't really thought about before. 297 00:18:43,785 --> 00:18:47,625 So when she came out with the first book on just entertaining, and 298 00:18:47,625 --> 00:18:51,065 it's not just about cooking, but it's about flower 299 00:18:51,065 --> 00:18:54,605 arrangement. It's about table setting. It's about invitations. 300 00:18:55,225 --> 00:18:58,980 She was including everybody into this world of of 301 00:18:58,980 --> 00:19:02,740 a familiar behavior that they wanted. And that's 302 00:19:02,740 --> 00:19:05,720 why she resonated so quickly 303 00:19:06,660 --> 00:19:10,200 because she really targeted a market that 304 00:19:10,420 --> 00:19:14,105 nobody else was talking to. And that's why behavioral data 305 00:19:14,105 --> 00:19:17,785 is really interesting when you learn people's behaviors. What do 306 00:19:17,785 --> 00:19:21,145 they like? What do they wanna see? What are they interested 307 00:19:21,145 --> 00:19:24,600 in? Right? What are the natural connections they make 308 00:19:24,679 --> 00:19:28,380 between individual items? That information is just 309 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:29,500 golden nuggets. 310 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:35,660 Well, and there's this whole field of behavioral economics 311 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:40,285 where, you know, there's all sorts of psychology 312 00:19:40,505 --> 00:19:44,285 involved in that, a lot of enough history, 313 00:19:45,145 --> 00:19:48,585 even in there, there's biology for goodness 314 00:19:48,585 --> 00:19:52,370 sakes, driving some of these behaviors as well. And I 315 00:19:52,410 --> 00:19:56,170 you've encouraged me. I'm gonna watch that that documentary now about Martha 316 00:19:56,170 --> 00:19:59,930 Stewart. I've I've admired her from afar, for a while. So 317 00:19:59,930 --> 00:20:03,370 I'll I'll definitely check that out. I already had a good 318 00:20:03,370 --> 00:20:07,205 excuse to watch that because I you know, Snoop Dogg ain't wrong about much. 319 00:20:07,205 --> 00:20:10,565 I'm just saying. Well, and and the 320 00:20:10,565 --> 00:20:14,164 whole He's become he's Snoop Dogg has 321 00:20:14,164 --> 00:20:17,605 become, like, the representation of 322 00:20:17,605 --> 00:20:21,010 America. Like, in so many different ways, he has 323 00:20:21,010 --> 00:20:24,690 triggered, you know, alliances of many different factions that 324 00:20:24,690 --> 00:20:28,130 would never align before. For shizzle. For 325 00:20:28,130 --> 00:20:31,970 shizzle. And and I love the commercial. It might 326 00:20:31,970 --> 00:20:35,765 have been last year's Super Bowl commercial where and again, she's 327 00:20:35,765 --> 00:20:39,305 a very clever marketer. Right? Like, I I 328 00:20:39,685 --> 00:20:43,305 I had no idea who Martha Stewart was until she did a commercial. 329 00:20:43,925 --> 00:20:46,025 I wanna say it was for American Express 330 00:20:47,870 --> 00:20:51,390 where she would do these, like, ridiculous over the top things, 331 00:20:51,390 --> 00:20:54,990 and she was acting like it was no big deal. Like, she was she was 332 00:20:54,990 --> 00:20:58,830 tiling she was tiling, like, the bottom of her 333 00:20:58,830 --> 00:21:02,465 swimming pool, like, to look like a, Renaissance 334 00:21:02,465 --> 00:21:05,425 work. I don't know. It'd be cool if that commercial was in the documentary, but 335 00:21:05,425 --> 00:21:08,305 it was just like you know, she's like, what do you do with your old 336 00:21:08,305 --> 00:21:11,985 credit cards? And it was just like, you know and she basically cut them up 337 00:21:11,985 --> 00:21:15,130 and had this mosaic on the pool floor that she was making, and it was 338 00:21:15,130 --> 00:21:18,330 just kinda like she would do these, like, over the top kind of things. And 339 00:21:18,330 --> 00:21:22,169 I was like, wait. This lady is real? Like, this is like a real 340 00:21:22,169 --> 00:21:25,850 thing. Right. And 341 00:21:25,850 --> 00:21:29,690 then and then after she and then and then she survived going going into 342 00:21:29,690 --> 00:21:33,455 jail. And then, and then she came out of jail and it, it 343 00:21:33,455 --> 00:21:36,415 tells you in the documentary not to ruin anything, but when she went to go 344 00:21:36,415 --> 00:21:40,255 do the Justin Bieber roast, it 345 00:21:40,255 --> 00:21:43,970 completely opened up an entirely 346 00:21:44,270 --> 00:21:47,810 new generation to who she was. Right. And 347 00:21:48,030 --> 00:21:51,870 they she was so smart in 348 00:21:51,870 --> 00:21:55,010 this roast for 5 minutes 349 00:21:55,710 --> 00:21:59,365 that she recreated her career again. And 350 00:21:59,365 --> 00:22:03,045 now, you know, she's doing everything else that she's doing. She's she was 351 00:22:03,205 --> 00:22:06,645 she she she put a thirst a thirst picture up for, 352 00:22:07,285 --> 00:22:11,120 for Sports Illustrated Magazine at 70 years old. And she's 353 00:22:11,120 --> 00:22:14,480 like, yeah. I like sex. Yeah. I'm a woman. And 354 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:18,080 I'm like, go. You do you. Because if you don't do 355 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,680 you, no one's gonna you're never gonna get done. So I 356 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:24,800 loved it. I loved it. I have to say, I mean, I'm always impressed with 357 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,635 people who can reinvent themselves And Yeah. And and particularly with 358 00:22:28,635 --> 00:22:31,535 her her situation with jail, which I suspect that 359 00:22:33,035 --> 00:22:36,794 given that she was on Wall Street, presumably, she had her series 360 00:22:36,794 --> 00:22:38,815 7, it would be a really 361 00:22:42,649 --> 00:22:46,490 it would be really hard for her to say to the prosecutor, I didn't really 362 00:22:46,490 --> 00:22:49,929 know what I was doing. Right? Because it was just kinda like there were enough 363 00:22:49,929 --> 00:22:53,610 people around still in the Wall Street. Wall Street's a very small place in a 364 00:22:53,610 --> 00:22:56,515 lot of ways, and there would be a lot of people, like, how could you 365 00:22:56,515 --> 00:22:58,935 not know this was insider training? Right? 366 00:23:01,635 --> 00:23:05,155 But, like, when she came out of that, like, it was really kinda like, well, 367 00:23:05,155 --> 00:23:08,515 is this the end of her, or will she reinvent herself? No. Now we don't 368 00:23:08,515 --> 00:23:12,280 know the answer, but, like, it's still pretty impressive in terms of, you 369 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,580 know, I've always had great respect for people who can 370 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:19,480 continually reinvent themselves. And I didn't realize she was 70, but I guess the 371 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,380 math does kinda point in that direction that she'd be 372 00:23:23,285 --> 00:23:26,804 she'd be up there. But, like, I mean and and the whole thing of, like, 373 00:23:26,804 --> 00:23:30,645 you know, you know, being part of that Justin Bieber 374 00:23:30,645 --> 00:23:34,245 roast, right, does reintroduce her to a new generation. And, you 375 00:23:34,245 --> 00:23:38,009 know, it's it it's fascinating to see that the Super Bowl commercials 376 00:23:38,389 --> 00:23:42,230 that she's done have been very clever where, you know, I use 377 00:23:42,230 --> 00:23:45,830 it to light candles. And then Snoop Dogg comes on with 378 00:23:45,830 --> 00:23:48,970 Willie Nelson, and they say, or other things. 379 00:23:51,625 --> 00:23:55,065 And I was like, it's Safeway and, like, around that time. And there was this 380 00:23:55,065 --> 00:23:58,765 whole thing where there was a picture of the 3 of them where she has 381 00:23:59,545 --> 00:24:03,020 a speech bubble that says, you know, lighting candles. And 382 00:24:03,020 --> 00:24:06,399 then the Willie Nelson and Snoop Dogg say or other things, 383 00:24:06,860 --> 00:24:10,159 which is like it's brilliant. Like, it's just kinda like, 384 00:24:11,179 --> 00:24:15,020 she really leaned into that, you know, her friendship 385 00:24:15,020 --> 00:24:18,435 with Snoop Dogg and things like that. It's it's it's interesting to see that. 386 00:24:19,395 --> 00:24:23,175 But I also think that because of social media, because 387 00:24:23,315 --> 00:24:26,855 of the constant barrage we have of images, 388 00:24:27,075 --> 00:24:30,835 concepts, and whatnot, you almost 389 00:24:30,835 --> 00:24:34,295 have to reinvent yourself constantly. Right? Like, if you look at the 390 00:24:34,650 --> 00:24:38,110 Kardashians, right, and I would hold them up as kind of like the 391 00:24:39,130 --> 00:24:42,970 the counterexample of Martha Stewart. Right? Because I don't really know what 392 00:24:42,970 --> 00:24:46,190 the Kardashians do. I just know that they're famous. But 393 00:24:47,930 --> 00:24:51,605 that, you know, the ability to 394 00:24:51,605 --> 00:24:55,285 be an influencer like that. I think you're right. I don't think the 395 00:24:55,285 --> 00:24:58,965 Kardashians have been I think really Martha was there first. Oh, 396 00:24:58,965 --> 00:25:02,665 absolutely. And because she was, like, in a there was only one influencer, 397 00:25:02,965 --> 00:25:06,550 1 or 2, but the industry was probably made by the 398 00:25:07,010 --> 00:25:10,630 by, you know, capitalized on by the Kardashians 399 00:25:10,770 --> 00:25:12,070 and things like that. And 400 00:25:15,970 --> 00:25:19,495 people don't have people have more positive despite 401 00:25:19,495 --> 00:25:23,175 being an ex convict, people have positive impressions of 402 00:25:23,175 --> 00:25:25,675 Martha. When you say the Kardashians, somebody 403 00:25:26,775 --> 00:25:30,075 always cringes like in the room. They don't get that sense with Martha. 404 00:25:30,559 --> 00:25:33,919 But again, we're on another sidetrack. Sorry about that. Oh, and I know. And how 405 00:25:33,919 --> 00:25:36,960 are we gonna wrap this all the way up? I don't know. I have no 406 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,940 idea. Somehow we always land the plane, and I'm never sure how. 407 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,320 My, my kids were watching the Madagascar movies last 408 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:48,105 night. And, like, the penguins remind me kind of like how 409 00:25:48,105 --> 00:25:51,865 we run the show. Like, you know, 410 00:25:51,865 --> 00:25:55,065 the penguin where they do this thing like Now now we have to figure out 411 00:25:55,065 --> 00:25:58,845 who's Kowalski. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. I don't know. 412 00:25:58,940 --> 00:26:01,760 I don't know who it is. Maybe it's Bailey. Maybe Bailey's Kowalski. 413 00:26:04,220 --> 00:26:07,660 I always go for the AI. That's right. Just blame the 414 00:26:07,660 --> 00:26:11,420 AI. Well, there you go. But but I think it's it's 415 00:26:11,420 --> 00:26:15,075 important for people one of the notions that you came up with in the 416 00:26:15,075 --> 00:26:18,774 book, which I when I first heard it, I was like, that's a strange word. 417 00:26:19,715 --> 00:26:23,554 But it really works. Glimmers. Oh, I 418 00:26:23,554 --> 00:26:26,934 love glimmers. I think glimmers is really kind of like 419 00:26:27,889 --> 00:26:31,490 part and parcel of the of the book. Can you explain what glimmers 420 00:26:31,490 --> 00:26:35,110 are? Oh, I love glimmers. Glimmer is when you 421 00:26:35,730 --> 00:26:39,330 you are reminded of something that makes you really 422 00:26:39,330 --> 00:26:42,710 happy. If it's a sense, if it's a sound 423 00:26:43,405 --> 00:26:47,105 and you, you see something and then you're immediately 424 00:26:47,165 --> 00:26:50,925 brought back to this really happy moment, that's something that's 425 00:26:50,925 --> 00:26:54,525 like inherent inside of you. And it just, it 426 00:26:54,525 --> 00:26:57,905 resonates. And then when you're able to trigger a glimmer, 427 00:26:58,270 --> 00:27:02,030 you've got the customer, the client, whoever it is, 428 00:27:02,030 --> 00:27:05,730 because you have spoken to something that, you know, 429 00:27:06,350 --> 00:27:10,190 is so deep within them, that it just makes sense. And 430 00:27:10,190 --> 00:27:13,975 usually those kinds of things are like evocative of, of like, if it's a 431 00:27:13,975 --> 00:27:17,434 commercial, you'll see, it's like a song. So like, you know, 432 00:27:17,575 --> 00:27:21,335 everybody remembers the Coca Cola commercial. I'd like to buy the world 433 00:27:21,335 --> 00:27:25,095 of Coke, right? The song, it was evocative of, of the, of the 434 00:27:25,095 --> 00:27:28,590 seventies, which, you know, felt much more familiar 435 00:27:29,530 --> 00:27:33,150 and people caring about each other and being part of a big family. 436 00:27:34,570 --> 00:27:38,350 So glimmers in marketing are exactly that, finding something 437 00:27:39,125 --> 00:27:42,725 even universal, but that's going to evoke the right 438 00:27:42,725 --> 00:27:46,565 emotion in people that's going to bring them to the sale. I 439 00:27:46,565 --> 00:27:50,345 love glimmers. I love them. Love them. Love them. And because we're constantly 440 00:27:50,485 --> 00:27:53,445 connected and constantly given these streams of things, I think, 441 00:27:54,590 --> 00:27:58,290 there's opportunities for the savvy marketer to bring these glimmers 442 00:27:58,510 --> 00:28:02,190 to life and really kind of embed 443 00:28:02,190 --> 00:28:05,950 that in their thing, their thing, their marketing 444 00:28:05,950 --> 00:28:09,774 campaign. Right? Like, you can tell we're recording this on a Monday morning. 445 00:28:09,774 --> 00:28:13,134 So it definitely definitely feels good. Before your coffee. Right 446 00:28:13,134 --> 00:28:16,434 after the time change. Coffee right after the time change. 447 00:28:16,975 --> 00:28:19,554 With kids, man, that that time change is brutal. 448 00:28:21,659 --> 00:28:25,100 But, like, right now, I'm 449 00:28:25,100 --> 00:28:28,780 totally fascinated with the insurance commercials. The 450 00:28:28,780 --> 00:28:32,380 insurance commercials are they're hilarious. They are 451 00:28:32,380 --> 00:28:36,195 absolutely hilarious. And it's not just the emu guy, and I love the emu guy. 452 00:28:36,195 --> 00:28:39,875 I love the emu with the sunglasses. I love that. But the other 453 00:28:39,875 --> 00:28:42,774 guy who's like this actor who's like the chaos guy. 454 00:28:44,034 --> 00:28:47,654 Oh, mayhem. See? Tell me. There you go. You love him. 455 00:28:47,875 --> 00:28:51,634 Right? Reminds me of my middle child. You laugh every time you 456 00:28:51,634 --> 00:28:55,130 see him. Yep. And it's like a sense of 457 00:28:55,130 --> 00:28:58,810 humor that has happened with these insurance commercials that 458 00:28:58,810 --> 00:29:02,250 really resonates. I really believe now with 459 00:29:02,250 --> 00:29:06,065 generation x and either, you 460 00:29:06,065 --> 00:29:09,505 know, generation X were the ones that are finally in the positions that we get 461 00:29:09,505 --> 00:29:13,185 to make the final decisions. And that's why maybe the commercials are so 462 00:29:13,185 --> 00:29:16,625 resonating and so funny with me because they really speak 463 00:29:16,625 --> 00:29:20,160 to, you know, the time that I grew up in and how I think 464 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:23,600 about things and okay. But they're 465 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:27,060 hilarious and they stand out in their hilarity. 466 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,380 They really do. And like you you're, you're not going 467 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,275 to fast forward through one of those because sometimes because 468 00:29:35,275 --> 00:29:39,035 she's really like it. It makes you giggle. I saw the there's a new 469 00:29:39,035 --> 00:29:42,475 emu commercial where, I guess, they have Thanksgiving Day parade 470 00:29:42,475 --> 00:29:46,170 floats. And it was on it 471 00:29:46,170 --> 00:29:49,850 was actually on Madagascar because it was, like, intercut, the commercial, and I was 472 00:29:49,850 --> 00:29:53,690 like, what? What is going on? And I I didn't watch the 473 00:29:53,690 --> 00:29:57,315 whole thing, but I was like, that's clever. Like, you know I also think 474 00:29:57,315 --> 00:30:00,294 too, like and I think you brought up something with gen x. Right? Like, 475 00:30:01,075 --> 00:30:04,275 I don't know if this has happened if this has happened before, but the whole 476 00:30:04,275 --> 00:30:08,034 notion that you have different generations is not new. But 477 00:30:08,034 --> 00:30:11,620 having having to market to different generations, 478 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,760 I think, is a relatively new phenomena. Right? Because obviously, you're gonna market one 479 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:19,280 type of thing to an older crowd. You're gonna market another thing to a younger 480 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,960 crowd. And that definitely still happens. But the whole idea, you would market car 481 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,275 insurance across, you know, for for millennials 482 00:30:26,575 --> 00:30:30,415 and gen x and even boomers. It it's fascinating to 483 00:30:30,415 --> 00:30:34,174 kinda see. I also think 484 00:30:34,174 --> 00:30:37,875 about the medium in which they're doing the advertising. So I think the advertising 485 00:30:38,015 --> 00:30:40,355 that's happening right now to generation 486 00:30:41,750 --> 00:30:45,130 Zed is on social media. It's on Instagram. 487 00:30:45,909 --> 00:30:49,450 It's on TikTok. It's on Twitter. 488 00:30:50,070 --> 00:30:53,690 And when they see it, let's say, or, or on Snapchat 489 00:30:53,830 --> 00:30:57,527 where they, they see it and then they, and then they, that is the 490 00:30:57,527 --> 00:31:01,372 omni mark, you know, the omnichannel marketing. They see it on one 491 00:31:01,372 --> 00:31:05,216 of these platforms, they click into it, and then they keep on 492 00:31:05,216 --> 00:31:08,820 continuing in, in the virtual cycle till purchase because they're just 493 00:31:08,820 --> 00:31:12,660 gathering all the information they can because the social media allows them 494 00:31:12,660 --> 00:31:15,480 to. They're not even bothering going to the website, 495 00:31:16,580 --> 00:31:20,419 right? They're certainly not going to the mall to find it in a 496 00:31:20,419 --> 00:31:23,905 store. Right? So, you know, so the the the 497 00:31:23,905 --> 00:31:27,665 marketing that has to be resonating with that with 498 00:31:27,665 --> 00:31:30,725 that particular market, let's say, gen zed, is different. 499 00:31:31,345 --> 00:31:34,865 It's genuinely different than the marketing that is resonating with 500 00:31:34,865 --> 00:31:37,710 gen z who are still watching television and who are watching television and who are 501 00:31:37,710 --> 00:31:40,640 not watching everything on their phones. Right? That that is an interesting because I 502 00:31:41,679 --> 00:31:45,200 I've noticed that with my kids is, like, you know, as they get 503 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,580 older, they do start watching TV. Now when they watch 504 00:31:51,165 --> 00:31:54,305 TV, it's usually a streaming platform. Right? Like, the whole notion of 505 00:31:54,685 --> 00:31:57,825 broadcast TV is, like, alien to them. Right. 506 00:31:59,165 --> 00:32:02,845 My mom, god rest her soul, was, you know, 507 00:32:02,845 --> 00:32:05,425 kind of an early boomer, I guess. But, like, 508 00:32:06,470 --> 00:32:10,310 whenever Christmas time came around, she'd be like, Rudolph is on tonight. 509 00:32:10,310 --> 00:32:14,150 Like, you gotta watch it. Right? And and and, like Now that I 510 00:32:14,150 --> 00:32:17,430 can go stream at any time I want to. Right. Like, you know, I didn't 511 00:32:17,430 --> 00:32:20,515 have the heart to tell her we had it on DVD, which for you kids 512 00:32:20,515 --> 00:32:23,655 out there who don't know what DVD is, it was kind of like a CD, 513 00:32:24,115 --> 00:32:27,635 but, kind of like an iPad. Kind of like an iPad, but for 514 00:32:27,635 --> 00:32:31,475 video. But it was a separate thing. Dating yourself 515 00:32:31,475 --> 00:32:34,215 as you continue going. Right. As I go through it. Well, I remember 516 00:32:35,100 --> 00:32:38,780 the generational change in tech is fascinating to see. Right? And I 517 00:32:38,780 --> 00:32:41,660 I I I I I wanna write more about it, but one of the things 518 00:32:41,660 --> 00:32:43,120 was, you know, my oldest, 519 00:32:45,260 --> 00:32:48,960 he's about 15 now, and we had to burn the CD 520 00:32:50,065 --> 00:32:53,905 for, a friend wanted something for to burn a 521 00:32:53,905 --> 00:32:57,665 CD. Then he heard that. He's like, woah, burn 522 00:32:57,665 --> 00:33:01,505 a CD. That sounds so cool. Right? And he was, like, 9 523 00:33:01,505 --> 00:33:05,320 at the time. And I'm like like, yeah. I don't think it's but 524 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:09,160 he wanted to help me do it. Right? So we're, like, he's, like, going 525 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:13,000 down my my office with me and, like, burn a CD. We're gonna 526 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,760 burn a CD. And I'm, like and then he stops and said, what's a 527 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:20,445 CD? I was like, oh, that hurts. That 528 00:33:20,445 --> 00:33:24,285 hurts. And it turned out it was very anti climatic burning a 529 00:33:24,285 --> 00:33:27,725 CD was like, no. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And the 530 00:33:27,725 --> 00:33:31,565 funny the funny thing is is that I bought they used to sell these 531 00:33:31,565 --> 00:33:35,159 big spindles at CompUSA. Yes. Of, like, a 532 00:33:35,159 --> 00:33:38,919 100 of them. And I'm like, I bought one. I'm still 533 00:33:38,919 --> 00:33:42,280 using it. Like, I found it the other day, and it's still not even halfway 534 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:46,039 down, like, in terms of, you know, because, like, I even if I 535 00:33:46,039 --> 00:33:49,535 had a burner CD now, I'd have to really think about Not many 536 00:33:49,535 --> 00:33:52,975 computers come with, come with the option of playing them anymore. 537 00:33:52,975 --> 00:33:56,755 So unless you have, like, a c unless you have a CD player, 538 00:33:59,295 --> 00:34:02,915 really, because the computers don't have have it. So they're kind of 539 00:34:04,390 --> 00:34:07,770 Yeah. I had my when I got my new car back in 2018, 540 00:34:07,990 --> 00:34:11,750 2019, it was about a month before I realized it didn't come with 541 00:34:11,750 --> 00:34:15,429 a CD player. Right. And you and and now, like, if you don't have a 542 00:34:15,429 --> 00:34:18,925 car that doesn't have, like, where you can plug in, like, your stick. Right. You 543 00:34:18,925 --> 00:34:22,565 know, while your songs are just go hook up right to your Spotify. Or 544 00:34:22,565 --> 00:34:26,344 Apple CarPlay. Just use Bluetooth. Yeah. Yep. Yes. 545 00:34:27,844 --> 00:34:31,465 So one of our previous guests, Mark Tabadillo, fascinating guy. 546 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,719 Smart guy. Yeah. On the on the stream, first time I'd heard the 547 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:39,180 term, he called it the divide between, digital 548 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,600 natives. And I forget the term he used. I guess Digital 549 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:46,304 immigrants. Immigrants. And it was a it was an 550 00:34:46,304 --> 00:34:50,005 interesting contrast, and it's that same thing, Candace, you were just talking about. 551 00:34:50,465 --> 00:34:54,065 And and we see it in in our kids. I'm my 552 00:34:54,065 --> 00:34:57,745 experience goes back about 15, 16 years when I'm 553 00:34:57,745 --> 00:35:01,560 explaining to Stevie, the icons 554 00:35:01,940 --> 00:35:05,700 in Word. And I say, well, you know, here's the this is a picture 555 00:35:05,700 --> 00:35:09,540 of a folder. We have file folders, so he he got it. You 556 00:35:09,540 --> 00:35:12,840 open a folder. You take out a file. 557 00:35:13,325 --> 00:35:17,165 And then this is the icon next to it that we use 558 00:35:17,165 --> 00:35:20,765 to save a file. And he's like, what's that what's that a picture 559 00:35:20,765 --> 00:35:24,545 of? I said, it's it's a floppy disk. He's like, 560 00:35:24,605 --> 00:35:28,260 what's a floppy disk? And I was like, he's never seen 561 00:35:28,260 --> 00:35:32,020 one. I had some. I still have some. When I've got one, I said, 562 00:35:32,020 --> 00:35:35,780 this is a small one. Little ones? The little the little plastic 563 00:35:35,780 --> 00:35:39,620 ones? The 3 and a half inch. Yeah. Yeah. The 3a half. I said, and 564 00:35:39,620 --> 00:35:43,015 I think I may have around here somewhere the 5a quarter, some 565 00:35:43,015 --> 00:35:46,775 5a quarter. So I don't think I have a way to to access 566 00:35:46,775 --> 00:35:50,615 those. I may because I never throw anything away. I 567 00:35:50,695 --> 00:35:54,295 I'm not a hoarder. I could stop anytime I want. You're a 568 00:35:54,295 --> 00:35:57,930 collector. It's a bit thank you, Frank. It's like a 569 00:35:58,250 --> 00:36:02,090 the difference between a gossip and a historian. I 570 00:36:02,090 --> 00:36:05,710 like that. Oh, yes. That's a great comparison. It's 571 00:36:05,770 --> 00:36:08,510 one of my good my my better ones, but you can take it. It's okay. 572 00:36:11,145 --> 00:36:14,905 The the whole idea of perspective, I mean, floats through that. We've 573 00:36:14,905 --> 00:36:18,605 had conversations. I don't think we've ever had one online about this, 574 00:36:18,905 --> 00:36:22,740 Frank, but we've had conversations about in the SQL world, 575 00:36:22,740 --> 00:36:26,120 SQL Server Microsoft SQL Server world, there are SQL 576 00:36:26,180 --> 00:36:29,880 generations. And I had an opportunity to share this with a friend, 577 00:36:30,260 --> 00:36:34,020 less than a month ago at SQL Saturday Pittsburgh. He had 578 00:36:34,020 --> 00:36:37,785 been, one of the technical people in the community, SQL 579 00:36:37,785 --> 00:36:41,225 Server community, and he'd shared a lot of posts and 580 00:36:41,225 --> 00:36:44,905 information and ideas. Great stuff. And he'd done it, then he 581 00:36:44,905 --> 00:36:48,670 moved into management. And that was about 6 or 7 582 00:36:48,670 --> 00:36:52,510 years ago. And now he's kinda drifting back into 583 00:36:52,510 --> 00:36:56,110 the community, and he's like, gosh, I miss all that. And I I 584 00:36:56,110 --> 00:36:59,390 feel a little like, you know, I'm I'm out of the loop. Nobody knows who 585 00:36:59,390 --> 00:37:02,795 I am and all like that. And I'm like, maybe. But here's the 586 00:37:02,795 --> 00:37:06,555 thing. SQL generations run about every 4 to 5 years. 587 00:37:06,555 --> 00:37:10,015 That's a that's a true thing. If you step away from 588 00:37:10,555 --> 00:37:14,289 technical blogging for that amount of time, then nobody's 589 00:37:14,289 --> 00:37:17,809 gonna know who you are. Not nobody, but you're not gonna pick up any new 590 00:37:17,809 --> 00:37:21,490 people, obviously, or or very, very few. But what I 591 00:37:21,490 --> 00:37:24,630 shared with, with my friend, Mike, was that 592 00:37:25,089 --> 00:37:28,765 here's here's where you are. You know how to do 593 00:37:28,765 --> 00:37:32,605 this. You've done it before. And because you know how to do it, you 594 00:37:32,605 --> 00:37:36,065 can do it quicker. And don't 595 00:37:36,365 --> 00:37:39,725 feel like you've missed out. Just 596 00:37:39,725 --> 00:37:42,945 start and do what you did before minus the mistakes, 597 00:37:43,670 --> 00:37:47,030 and you'll be right back up there. Again, you know, you'll be the the new 598 00:37:47,030 --> 00:37:50,790 guy, the the new guy in 9 months. You 599 00:37:50,790 --> 00:37:54,390 know? So Well, but, I mean, that's a great example. Right? Because SQL Server 600 00:37:54,390 --> 00:37:58,175 has has changed. It's been around not forever, but, you know? A 601 00:37:58,175 --> 00:38:02,015 long, long time. Since the years began with 1. Since the years began with 602 00:38:02,015 --> 00:38:04,015 1. And, you know, it it 603 00:38:05,775 --> 00:38:09,315 but it's really goes through kudos to the engineering team at Microsoft 604 00:38:09,375 --> 00:38:13,109 for keeping it fresh and relevant. Right? Like, more so than any of 605 00:38:13,109 --> 00:38:16,869 their competitors. But, like, you know, I remember when they 606 00:38:16,869 --> 00:38:20,170 added XML as a as a type. Right? And that was like, woah. 607 00:38:20,630 --> 00:38:24,325 And then, you know, then obviously, the Azure versions. 608 00:38:24,325 --> 00:38:28,085 Right? And then there's this is what what? Four ways to run SQL Server 609 00:38:28,085 --> 00:38:31,845 in Azure alone? Oh, I think so. Plus on prem? Maybe 5? I 610 00:38:31,845 --> 00:38:35,685 don't know. They have really been pouring the innovation into Azure 611 00:38:35,685 --> 00:38:39,490 SQL DB. Yep. And it's it's almost 612 00:38:39,490 --> 00:38:43,170 magic here in 2024, just features they've added. It's 613 00:38:43,250 --> 00:38:46,930 are just almost magic. There's a really good YouTube channel. It's 614 00:38:46,930 --> 00:38:50,625 run by Anna 615 00:38:50,625 --> 00:38:54,165 Hoffman. Mhmm. I think that's her name. 616 00:38:54,305 --> 00:38:57,825 It is. Because I was at an 617 00:38:57,825 --> 00:39:01,665 internal Microsoft event where she was before she was married and changed 618 00:39:01,665 --> 00:39:05,190 her name. So I I always forget which is the new name, which is not. 619 00:39:05,190 --> 00:39:07,930 I think so so so, like, she did a chatbot workshop, 620 00:39:08,870 --> 00:39:12,630 and then now she's on the, the SQL 621 00:39:12,630 --> 00:39:16,330 team. And, like, she has a great I think it's called Data Exposed. Yep. 622 00:39:16,785 --> 00:39:20,625 Awesome show because it's like it's a good round up on kinda, like, 623 00:39:20,625 --> 00:39:24,224 if you wanna keep up the date of what's cutting edge there, it's cool to 624 00:39:24,224 --> 00:39:27,744 watch. Yeah. And that reminds me of 625 00:39:27,744 --> 00:39:31,424 another guest we had who said we should sponsor an off road 626 00:39:31,424 --> 00:39:35,160 racing team because we 627 00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:38,620 always go off track. But, 628 00:39:41,240 --> 00:39:45,000 where do you, you know, I think but all this is very relevant. Right? 629 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,785 It's all very germane. Like, we can It's a pleasure, Frank. Well, we can it 630 00:39:48,785 --> 00:39:52,625 is a feature. We you can always but 631 00:39:52,625 --> 00:39:55,985 now marketers have to deal with this. Right? Like, you know, you think about technology 632 00:39:55,985 --> 00:39:58,965 generations. Right? Or just 633 00:39:59,825 --> 00:40:03,630 let's let's keep it the mark marketing and technology. Right? Like, or marketing 634 00:40:03,690 --> 00:40:07,390 technological solutions. Right? It changes 635 00:40:07,450 --> 00:40:11,230 pretty rapidly, and that's like a cliche, but it really does change rapidly. 636 00:40:11,290 --> 00:40:14,910 Right? So, you know, your your friend who was out of the game, 637 00:40:15,450 --> 00:40:19,075 right, may actually be back in style 638 00:40:19,075 --> 00:40:22,914 because the whole rush to the cloud, the frenzy 639 00:40:22,914 --> 00:40:26,674 to go to the cloud, I think, is over. Yeah. And I 640 00:40:26,674 --> 00:40:30,135 think I and I think that on prem is now cool again. 641 00:40:30,789 --> 00:40:34,309 And I think that you can bring that experience to bear because there's probably a 642 00:40:34,309 --> 00:40:38,069 lot of kids, can't if you can't see the air quotes, I did kids, but, 643 00:40:38,069 --> 00:40:41,670 like, who just don't know how to run a sequel on 644 00:40:41,670 --> 00:40:45,365 premise anymore. Well, people do, you know, new to the 645 00:40:45,365 --> 00:40:48,425 to, you know, to the experience, know that. 646 00:40:48,725 --> 00:40:52,105 And definitely applies, to marketing. And 647 00:40:52,645 --> 00:40:55,625 I I track what Microsoft Marketing does. 648 00:40:56,319 --> 00:40:59,200 I you know, like a lot of people in this field and just a lot 649 00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:02,800 of people out of this field, I'm yeah. I see patterns, as they 650 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:06,559 emerge. And what we saw for a 651 00:41:06,559 --> 00:41:09,974 good solid 5 years before, you know, say, 2017 652 00:41:10,515 --> 00:41:14,275 to 2022. What I heard out of Microsoft marketing was all about 653 00:41:14,275 --> 00:41:17,734 the cloud. Yep. And, excuse me, 654 00:41:18,355 --> 00:41:22,135 I I can tell when the curve has changed. 655 00:41:22,515 --> 00:41:25,740 So So all of a sudden, you're drawing people and attracting people. Maybe there's a 656 00:41:25,740 --> 00:41:29,100 little bit of a curve going there. It's growing a touch 657 00:41:29,100 --> 00:41:32,940 exponentially. And then when it gets to a spot where it either 658 00:41:32,940 --> 00:41:36,780 begins to level off or and I'm I'm kinda drawing this if you're watching 659 00:41:36,780 --> 00:41:40,035 the video. And then, you know, then they know that they need to do something 660 00:41:40,035 --> 00:41:43,475 new. And, Candace, I know you would know all of the right words to use 661 00:41:43,475 --> 00:41:46,775 with this, but they would take a different approach, new campaign maybe. 662 00:41:47,235 --> 00:41:50,995 And when they changed direction, I noticed 663 00:41:50,995 --> 00:41:54,670 it in 2023. I noticed it at last 664 00:41:54,670 --> 00:41:57,890 year's past summit, and I saw 2 new things. 665 00:41:58,350 --> 00:42:01,250 1 was all of a sudden, it was cool to be hybrid. 666 00:42:02,590 --> 00:42:06,370 And I think what had happened was they had seen the acceleration 667 00:42:07,390 --> 00:42:11,144 and, frankly, made the money that they were gonna 668 00:42:11,144 --> 00:42:14,904 make out of that, go to the cloud, go to the cloud, go to the 669 00:42:14,904 --> 00:42:18,744 cloud. And while it was a great solution, it still is 670 00:42:18,744 --> 00:42:22,589 an awesome solution for a number of start ups and a number of businesses 671 00:42:22,650 --> 00:42:26,250 like that, you get to a spot where you have reached some level of 672 00:42:26,250 --> 00:42:30,089 saturation for that segment of the market. And I think that's 673 00:42:30,089 --> 00:42:33,930 what happened. I think the curve began to not flatten, but 674 00:42:33,930 --> 00:42:37,745 not to accelerate less. And so they realized that 675 00:42:37,745 --> 00:42:41,345 there's this huge piggy bank sitting out there of 676 00:42:41,345 --> 00:42:44,865 people who aren't ever gonna go completely to the cloud, but they may 677 00:42:44,865 --> 00:42:48,625 go partially to the cloud. And that's what hybrid's all about. Some of 678 00:42:48,625 --> 00:42:51,925 your stuff is on premises. Some of your stuff's in the cloud. 679 00:42:52,260 --> 00:42:55,700 Number of reasons for that that range from being 680 00:42:55,700 --> 00:42:59,060 practical to being secure, to being 681 00:42:59,060 --> 00:43:02,360 regulated, to to not be able to do that. 682 00:43:02,580 --> 00:43:06,180 And I saw that. The other the other direction was, of course, what y'all's 683 00:43:06,180 --> 00:43:09,815 book's about. See? I am taking the plane down. 684 00:43:10,595 --> 00:43:14,355 What y'all's book is about, which is marketing and AI and 685 00:43:14,355 --> 00:43:18,195 how to use what I loved about the book, I still love it, and I 686 00:43:18,195 --> 00:43:21,849 can't wait to to read what you're writing. What I loved 687 00:43:21,849 --> 00:43:25,390 about the first edition was how you not only talked about 688 00:43:25,609 --> 00:43:29,450 marketing and then AI, you talked 689 00:43:29,450 --> 00:43:33,130 about marketing AI. There's that piece. But then it's 690 00:43:33,130 --> 00:43:36,734 almost a pivot where using AI to 691 00:43:36,734 --> 00:43:39,855 help with with market. I don't know if that makes any sense or not, but 692 00:43:39,855 --> 00:43:43,375 it's like, you're you're certainly gonna you market you know, 693 00:43:43,375 --> 00:43:47,135 everything gets marketed. So AI is one of the things. But 694 00:43:47,135 --> 00:43:50,940 there's that aspect of it. But then there's a pivot where you say, how 695 00:43:50,940 --> 00:43:54,700 can we utilize AI to do better marketing or 696 00:43:54,700 --> 00:43:58,380 faster marketing? And that's I I thought 697 00:43:58,380 --> 00:44:02,220 y'all nailed that. And the way you present it, that was it wasn't 698 00:44:02,220 --> 00:44:05,755 a subtle pivot. It was definitely a pivot in the book where you talked about 699 00:44:05,755 --> 00:44:09,535 both of those things. And you didn't say, no. These are different. 700 00:44:09,755 --> 00:44:13,595 You didn't say all Candice is doing. That was her idea. Yeah. Totally. Like, that 701 00:44:13,595 --> 00:44:16,875 was totally her brilliant thing. I'll let her expound upon that. But, like, it was 702 00:44:16,875 --> 00:44:20,630 kind of like, you know, sometimes as practitioners, 703 00:44:20,849 --> 00:44:24,450 we get too wrapped up in this. Right? And it was 704 00:44:24,450 --> 00:44:28,050 like, when she kinda said some things, I was like, holy 705 00:44:28,050 --> 00:44:31,575 crap. That is an interesting way to look at it. So let's 706 00:44:31,655 --> 00:44:35,494 let's let's look at Candace. Oh, no. I'm enjoying listening to Andy talk 707 00:44:35,494 --> 00:44:38,855 about how much he's enjoying what what I wrote. That's that's way more 708 00:44:38,855 --> 00:44:42,075 interesting to me than having me. Because 709 00:44:42,295 --> 00:44:45,994 because, again, what it really comes down to is what did he get from it? 710 00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:50,020 What, what is he going to use from what he learned? 711 00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:54,180 What new ideas did it evoke in him for him to understand 712 00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:58,740 why there is this vital connection between marketing 713 00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:02,695 and IT And that we 714 00:45:02,755 --> 00:45:05,255 are, you know, we are way better together, 715 00:45:06,195 --> 00:45:09,795 right? And, and again, like in 716 00:45:09,795 --> 00:45:13,635 terms of dealing with a variety of personalities, like the whole 717 00:45:13,635 --> 00:45:16,740 world is filled with a variety of personalities, right? 718 00:45:17,220 --> 00:45:20,820 And, you know, I've explained I've had years of working with subject 719 00:45:20,820 --> 00:45:24,580 matter experts and I can go everywhere with like, you know, from 720 00:45:24,580 --> 00:45:27,800 the savant, you know, to the, you know, apoplectic 721 00:45:28,180 --> 00:45:31,975 academic. Do you know what I mean? Like, you know, you, you, you learn to 722 00:45:31,975 --> 00:45:35,815 pull the genius out of them where you can, and where 723 00:45:35,815 --> 00:45:39,655 that they will do the best job possible in the playground. But no, 724 00:45:39,655 --> 00:45:43,335 I, I, I loved hearing, what you thought, Andy. I thought that was 725 00:45:43,335 --> 00:45:44,715 great. Thank you so much. 726 00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:49,920 Yeah. Thank you all for writing the book. I mean, it was a it was 727 00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:53,440 a great presentation, and I'm super excited about, 728 00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:56,880 the second edition. I know y'all are working on it now, so you don't know 729 00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:00,475 when you'll be done. And there's another book too that's, like, in the middle where 730 00:46:00,475 --> 00:46:03,835 we kinda talk about, like and also too, I think one of the things I 731 00:46:03,835 --> 00:46:07,675 don't know if we wanna spoil the, the the surprise, but 732 00:46:07,675 --> 00:46:11,295 kinda we've also been documenting the processes in terms 733 00:46:11,355 --> 00:46:14,730 of I've seen this in echo. One of the things 734 00:46:15,430 --> 00:46:19,270 that Candace is very good at is using AI to create 735 00:46:19,270 --> 00:46:23,110 content. So if you look at her on LinkedIn, you know, she's been 736 00:46:23,110 --> 00:46:26,010 making, like, these little cartoons and, you know, 737 00:46:26,735 --> 00:46:29,855 which are really cool. Right? And they they I'll let her talk about, like, what 738 00:46:29,855 --> 00:46:33,695 she covers, but, like, they're really cool. And, you know, I've 739 00:46:33,695 --> 00:46:36,975 kinda helped her and, you know, with, like, some of this and some of the 740 00:46:36,975 --> 00:46:40,735 experimental stuff that I'm working on, that some people have seen the output, like 741 00:46:40,735 --> 00:46:44,460 the Bailey and Jen show. She was 742 00:46:44,460 --> 00:46:47,900 a beta tester for that. She has the 743 00:46:47,900 --> 00:46:51,680 Fetcheroo. I think you have Fetcheroo, don't you? I have Fetcheroo. 744 00:46:51,740 --> 00:46:54,400 I do. Fetcheroo is, is 745 00:46:55,685 --> 00:46:59,225 a tool that pulls down transcripts from YouTube videos. Nice. 746 00:46:59,765 --> 00:47:03,525 And the idea for that well, I'll let Candice explain that. Well, 747 00:47:03,525 --> 00:47:07,285 it's really exciting because I wanna make sure that I'm also talking about everything 748 00:47:07,285 --> 00:47:10,790 that's going on. And I'm a big believer in, honestly, in talking about 749 00:47:10,790 --> 00:47:14,310 neurodiversity. And that's where, my 750 00:47:14,550 --> 00:47:18,390 the cartoon started. So Frank has been so amazing. He's taught me so much. 751 00:47:18,390 --> 00:47:22,230 I can't I cannot even list on 2 on 2 hands how 752 00:47:22,230 --> 00:47:25,855 many different AI tools that he has introduced me to that I 753 00:47:25,855 --> 00:47:29,615 can use to kind of get my message out there. And so one of 754 00:47:29,615 --> 00:47:32,915 my big messages, about neurodiversity is neurodiversity 755 00:47:33,375 --> 00:47:37,155 strength. I want people to understand that if you have anxiety, 756 00:47:37,375 --> 00:47:41,180 that means you're really good at XYZ. And 757 00:47:41,180 --> 00:47:44,720 I'm not really interested in the challenges that it represents 758 00:47:44,779 --> 00:47:48,619 because I see those more as opportunities. And so 759 00:47:48,619 --> 00:47:52,299 I wanted to find a really non threatening easy way of 760 00:47:52,299 --> 00:47:55,945 going out and saying, Hey, you know, if you have 761 00:47:55,945 --> 00:47:59,484 anxiety, then you probably have anticipatory preparedness, 762 00:48:00,345 --> 00:48:04,025 which means, you know, you really know how to set yourself up for 763 00:48:04,025 --> 00:48:07,780 success. You know how to create a plan, you know, the 764 00:48:07,780 --> 00:48:11,539 individual steps and milestones that go into the plan, and then you know how to 765 00:48:11,539 --> 00:48:15,220 execute the plan. Because when you do this, it gives you less 766 00:48:15,220 --> 00:48:18,839 anxiety because you are more in all of what you're doing. 767 00:48:19,345 --> 00:48:23,025 So that's a strength. Well, kind of like it's, you know, the 768 00:48:23,025 --> 00:48:26,145 old Eddie and I, we talked about this on the podcast. Like, you know, we're 769 00:48:26,145 --> 00:48:29,285 weaponizing, like, our ADHD or we 770 00:48:29,585 --> 00:48:33,425 weaponize a lot of this, like, you know, weaponize paranoia. Right? Like, if 771 00:48:33,425 --> 00:48:37,130 you're if you work in, like, 772 00:48:38,230 --> 00:48:42,070 high availability disaster recovery, that type of anxiety that 773 00:48:42,070 --> 00:48:45,770 she just talked about is a huge advantage 774 00:48:45,830 --> 00:48:49,190 over a normie. Right? Or, like, you know, a typical 775 00:48:49,190 --> 00:48:52,995 person. Like, so it doesn't have to be. And one of the 776 00:48:52,995 --> 00:48:54,615 things I think is interesting about, 777 00:49:00,355 --> 00:49:01,655 the concept of neurodiversity 778 00:49:16,755 --> 00:49:20,535 And I think the last, let's say, 50 to a 100 years where we 779 00:49:21,075 --> 00:49:24,515 everybody work you know, they got they got a job. They got an 780 00:49:24,515 --> 00:49:27,394 education. They either got a job in a factory or they got a job in 781 00:49:27,394 --> 00:49:30,914 an office. That only appeals to one type of 782 00:49:30,914 --> 00:49:34,589 personality when in fact for the eons of 783 00:49:34,589 --> 00:49:37,890 time that animals or, you know, nervous systems have existed, 784 00:49:38,829 --> 00:49:42,270 you always have a little bit of this, like, you know, variances. And some 785 00:49:42,270 --> 00:49:45,225 variances catch on and some don't. 786 00:49:45,625 --> 00:49:49,385 Yep. And I think that as the world changes from 787 00:49:49,385 --> 00:49:53,225 that nice, you know I was talking to my to my wife about 788 00:49:53,225 --> 00:49:56,905 this the other day about some people she knew from college where, you 789 00:49:56,905 --> 00:50:00,750 know, he 790 00:50:00,750 --> 00:50:03,530 he doesn't believe in getting certifications for continuing education 791 00:50:04,790 --> 00:50:08,470 because his thought he's very much an anachronism for Gen Xer. He's 792 00:50:08,470 --> 00:50:11,225 very much out of place. 793 00:50:12,485 --> 00:50:15,045 But the whole idea is that, you know, I got my and I know people 794 00:50:15,045 --> 00:50:17,365 like this. I went to school with, right? So I'm not just picking on him. 795 00:50:17,365 --> 00:50:20,885 He's like, I got my degree in computer science. Kurt Cobain 796 00:50:20,885 --> 00:50:24,265 was recently dead. I think he was still alive. 797 00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:28,360 Tupac was still alive. Right? And I don't 798 00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:31,560 have to ever learn anything new again. I just sit in a desk. I get 799 00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:34,620 my, you know, my watch in 20 years, 800 00:50:35,240 --> 00:50:38,200 and I get my retirement, and that's it. Then I go then I go do 801 00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:41,765 what I really want to do. And those days are gone. Yeah. That's 802 00:50:41,845 --> 00:50:45,204 he's in if he feels that way, he's in the right job, and he should 803 00:50:45,204 --> 00:50:49,045 never leave. If that job exists. If that 804 00:50:49,045 --> 00:50:52,244 job exists. But he's very unhappy in his job and, like 805 00:50:52,484 --> 00:50:56,260 2024. But it doesn't exist anymore. I mean, like, you 806 00:50:56,260 --> 00:50:59,700 know Right. I kinda maybe go too far the other 807 00:50:59,700 --> 00:51:02,040 direction. By the way, I hit 210, 808 00:51:04,020 --> 00:51:07,845 search licenses. But 809 00:51:07,845 --> 00:51:11,365 that's but that's neither here nor there. But I think, you know, but to to 810 00:51:11,365 --> 00:51:14,825 Candace's point, like, you know, people who are neurodiverse or 811 00:51:15,605 --> 00:51:18,665 not neurotypical. Right? Or maybe neurocelebrated 812 00:51:19,365 --> 00:51:23,119 would be a better word. Right? Like I mean, the neurotypical, 813 00:51:23,660 --> 00:51:27,420 I I consider to be neuro basic. Neuro basic. 814 00:51:29,020 --> 00:51:32,780 And the neurodiverse give it another 20 years, 815 00:51:32,780 --> 00:51:35,599 and it's going to be the majority, not the minority. 816 00:51:36,795 --> 00:51:40,474 Right. Yeah. Well, it probably already is, but I think a lot of people are 817 00:51:40,474 --> 00:51:42,175 are, what's the word, 818 00:51:44,875 --> 00:51:48,635 covering for themselves. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Or They don't feel 819 00:51:48,635 --> 00:51:52,370 accepted yet and be and they feel they're gonna be penalized because 820 00:51:52,370 --> 00:51:55,730 they think differently. But if you look at the richest people in the world 821 00:51:55,730 --> 00:51:59,570 today, as opposed to Many are. Hang on. Yeah. I 822 00:51:59,570 --> 00:52:03,110 mean, Elon Musk. Yeah. Enough said. He plans it. 823 00:52:03,250 --> 00:52:06,855 Yeah. Richard Branson, You know, 824 00:52:09,395 --> 00:52:13,075 one of the guys from Shark Tank is a very vocal, that he 825 00:52:13,075 --> 00:52:16,915 has dyslexia growing up. Yes. Right? Richard 826 00:52:16,915 --> 00:52:20,620 Branson too. But yeah. Bill Gates, 827 00:52:20,620 --> 00:52:24,460 obviously. Even Jeff Bezos. Right? He has kind of 828 00:52:24,460 --> 00:52:27,760 this obsessive Mhmm. You know, 829 00:52:28,380 --> 00:52:32,205 thing. It's not necessarily a bad thing. No. I don't 830 00:52:32,205 --> 00:52:35,645 think so either. Yeah. It's a it's a brain that's 831 00:52:35,645 --> 00:52:38,705 wired for opportunity. Right. Because 832 00:52:39,485 --> 00:52:43,165 nothing nothing easy nothing 833 00:52:43,165 --> 00:52:46,900 comes easy. Right. You know, when you sit there and you 834 00:52:46,900 --> 00:52:50,260 can read and you can write and you can count and you're 835 00:52:50,260 --> 00:52:53,860 just doing it, that's one 836 00:52:53,860 --> 00:52:57,620 thing. But when you're an individual who has to learn how 837 00:52:57,620 --> 00:53:01,225 to learn, everything changes. 838 00:53:01,685 --> 00:53:05,145 Right. That is that is a very pregnant statement, 839 00:53:05,765 --> 00:53:09,285 and I think we need to do another show where we just pick on that. 840 00:53:09,285 --> 00:53:12,805 You're right. I think that neurodivergence and how it's 841 00:53:13,045 --> 00:53:16,800 that would be a fascinating topic And would love 842 00:53:17,339 --> 00:53:21,099 to to have Candice would love to have that that conversation with 843 00:53:21,099 --> 00:53:24,940 with us 3 once a week. That'd be cool. That'd be cool. That'd be 844 00:53:24,940 --> 00:53:28,619 great. So we're almost at the time here, 845 00:53:28,619 --> 00:53:31,715 and, wanna point out that the book is Sentient Marketing, 846 00:53:32,575 --> 00:53:35,875 Foundations of Sentient Marketing. If you go to sentientmarketingbook.com 847 00:53:37,535 --> 00:53:41,215 yep. She's holding the cover if you're watching. There's 2 options. You could buy 848 00:53:41,215 --> 00:53:44,960 the online course, or pick up the book 849 00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:46,820 on Amazon. Sentientmarketingbook.com. 850 00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:51,380 Sentientmarketingbook.com. Okay. 851 00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:57,285 And there's links to Candace's LinkedIn page, 852 00:53:57,845 --> 00:54:01,365 her Include Us World site that she has, which is about 853 00:54:01,365 --> 00:54:04,825 neurodiversity ultimately. Nice. And 854 00:54:05,845 --> 00:54:08,825 I think she's on to something. I think including people who are neurodiverse 855 00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:14,340 in decision making and strategy will let you see things that 856 00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:19,200 one type of lens won't let you see. Well, 857 00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:22,640 thank you, Frank. Thank you, Andy. I would so 858 00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:26,055 enjoy coming back and doing another call about 859 00:54:26,055 --> 00:54:29,355 neurodiversity and and all of the the exciting 860 00:54:30,135 --> 00:54:33,815 wild world that there is out there for that. That's starting to 861 00:54:34,135 --> 00:54:37,755 Let's do it. Yeah. Alright. So anything else, Andy? 862 00:54:38,055 --> 00:54:41,900 Nope. Anything else, Candice? No. Thank you so much again. Thank 863 00:54:41,900 --> 00:54:45,500 you. Cool. And include us world is the URL. Right? So include 864 00:54:45,500 --> 00:54:49,099 us.world. World. Got it. Yes. One of those fancy 865 00:54:49,099 --> 00:54:52,779 new top level domains. Mhmm. And with that, we'll 866 00:54:52,779 --> 00:54:56,435 let the nice British lady, Bailey, end the show. And that's a 867 00:54:56,435 --> 00:54:59,795 wrap for today's dive into the vibrant world of AI driven 868 00:54:59,795 --> 00:55:03,315 marketing with Candice Gillhooley. We hope you're leaving this 869 00:55:03,315 --> 00:55:06,615 episode with a fresh perspective on how data, creativity, 870 00:55:06,995 --> 00:55:10,675 and a bit of sentient tech can truly transform the way we connect with 871 00:55:10,675 --> 00:55:14,490 audiences. Remember, whether you're an analytics ace, a 872 00:55:14,490 --> 00:55:18,250 marketing maverick, or just here for Frank and Andy's tangents, there's 873 00:55:18,250 --> 00:55:21,930 always a place for you in the data driven community. Until next 874 00:55:21,930 --> 00:55:25,513 time, stay curious, keep questioning, and let's keep 875 00:55:25,513 --> 00:55:29,193 pushing the boundaries of what's possible with data. Now, I'll 876 00:55:29,193 --> 00:55:32,813 let the nice British AI, that's me, Bailey, officially 877 00:55:32,873 --> 00:55:34,493 sign off. Cheers.