Kids can learn something that you don't even realize is possible at a specific age They hit that milestone way before it's expected.

Welcome folks. This is Bitcoin Homeschoolers, and this is something that we feel is bigger than something bigger than ourselves. It's going to really impact the future generations. Bitcoin is self custody for money, Noster is self custody for speech, and homeschooling is self custody for, for education. I really do believe that, and we are just honored to have this awesome couple here today. That we're gonna spend some time and get another point of view. They're both Bitcoiners and homeschoolers. So Shane and Meredith, Welcome. this is awesome. We're really excited to spend, uh, spend some time with you guys tonight.

I'm humbled to be here, Scott and Tali. Thank you guys for having us. I mean, being some of your first guests even, I mean, what a, what a privilege. Thank you guys. And, uh, to have Meredith on and we don't, we don't get to do shows very often together. So, you know, this is, this is kind of a nice mix to have. And, um, I think, the fact that you guys are starting Bitcoin homeschoolers. If anybody's listening and you're into Bitcoin or homeschool or any of this kind of stuff, it's a, it's a great market right now to maybe put something out there and attract, uh, this organization.

Yeah. So let me, let me just say for folks, we, so Shane and I have just started to get to know each other with a couple of podcasts related to Bitcoin and, and veterans. This is the first time though, that we have both of our respective spouses together, and we're all able to, to go deep on the homeschooling side. Of that. And let me just say up front, God bless you guys for doing that. I think anybody who takes this on, this is a, this is a, this is a passion. This is a mission and it's not always easy. But it's worth it. And we're grateful for people like you to, to, uh, to do that. If you guys could do a quick introduction Pretend that no one knows who shane is for example, and then tell us like what got you into homeschooling kind of lead into the that subject.

Okay. Um, i'm meredith hazel married to shane I was a public school teacher or I want to say it was six years total um, then we had a baby and we decided that we wanted to have me stay home. So until he was old enough to need to start doing school, um, you know, I was home with him and then it was time for him to start going to school and we decided that we were going to home school. Um, I'm sorry, I'm like out of

breath right now. And for anybody who's listening, like, it wasn't just that we were like, oh, let's homeschool. Economically, as a school teacher, it really didn't make sense. No.

Childcare alone was ridiculous. To even consider me going back to work before the kids were old enough to be going to school with me. Because in my mind, as a teacher, I was going to. Go to school, take my kids with me, come home at the end of the day, and we would just be together because that's what I saw so many teachers growing up in education doing like they just always had their kids with them at school. so once we started homeschooling, it just. We used to say we were taking it year by year, at least I did, I know maybe you weren't.

I was in, full in, I was just like, this is, this is, this is happening and really it was, one of those things where it, I think, I think you have to back up a little bit because we had made some decisions, like we had downsized. our home, we had gotten, our, our affairs and, in terms of debt and all that kind of stuff, like we've gotten all the financial stuff kind of in order. Um, so that, we could make the adjustment to a single family income. And, that, I think that's probably one of the biggest things that a lot of people, really fear is like, Oh, we're going to a single family income. And we kind of just looked at each other and was like, no, we can do this. And actually it might, Allow me to do more at work. Mm-Hmm. Um, and I think, as, as males, a lot of times we're not, we're not, so, I don't know, in, in so useful, uh, I don't know if that's the word with, with infants, right. It's like with, with infants, like they, there's only so much you could, yeah. They, you really need a mom and. You know, the, the dad is like that guy that should probably be out, and I'm not, we're fairly traditional obviously, but it's like you should be able to go out and work extra hard now if she's covering the house and, that's no small feat, right, but now that it's in good hands, it's like, all right, dude, you got to, you got to perform more, you got to perform better. And then, it puts a good type of pressure on. And I think that's kind of how we were, we started. Yeah. And golly happens fast after that. I mean, I mean, we're, we're

about 10 years in now. When, when you think about it. Yeah. So, um, well, Todd, you want, sorry, go ahead. Think about halfway through. I used to, oh, did the audio go out or something? No, that was me about halfway through. I, that's when I started, like if people were asking like, how long are you homeschooling? And be like, uh, till they're done, like, I'm not, it's, it's no longer, I no longer say, we'll, we'll see how each year goes. It's if something is not working with homeschooling, I've, I've just learned I need to change how I'm doing it. And if it's with one kid in particular, or all three of them, usually it's just an individual thing that happens, but, um, I just make adjustments. And if I don't know about you, something like math is, uh, taxing for a child of mine in particular, I've probably been through four or five different curriculums with him just because I need to change it up for him every once in a while.

Yeah, so Tali, I know you wanted to ask about their initial challenges, so I'm kind of stealing her question. When you guys made that decision and you were, you just started, you just started, what was the hardest part about kind of figuring out that next step and, and how you were going to actually do this thing?

I think you were, uh, I think the admin side, I remember you kind of struggling. Well, the admin side, like, all right, how do we legally do this? in the state, how do we find out everything that we need to find out? Because at the end of the day, you don't want... Everything that you do for your child to come back and haunt you or, for the state to have to get involved at any point. Um, the last thing anybody wants is, some sort of truancy law being violated and a knock at their door from either child services or the sheriff. And then on the other side of that, it was kind of, trying to figure out and find different groups for ideas on curriculum and... the divorcing, the mentality of divorcing I think was probably maybe the biggest hurdle she had because, you know, she's, she's a planner by nature and she's really good. I mean, like very good at planning and I hate that kind of stuff. So I appreciate the people that do it and do it well. Um, so to see her kind of go through that evolution, I definitely would say, there was probably a good struggle there for you just watching.

Yeah. Um. I think I used to over plan a lot, too, like it wasn't necessary. I learned again after a few years that it's just kind of easier to honestly do what you can get accomplished in a day and then just kind of make note of it like reverse planning, almost where you just kind of record what you did a couple things down here and there and. It gets too technical and too busy if you try to plan

it out. Yeah, I think maybe on my side, one of the biggest hurdles I found was, I was working in corporate America. I was traveling a lot and I was doing program management and international business development at the time. And it required a lot of travel, and it required me, to really perform and be away and, long hours, I mean, a lot of times, especially. And I'm kind of that guy that will go in at like 6 o'clock in the morning to an office and work till 6 o'clock at night in an office. Well, when

you were doing that though, you would come home sometimes like 3. Like if you went super early. Yeah. Three

or four or something that, that might've been before kids though. Yeah. But yeah, once it started happening, I think the hardest part for me was still living in that corporate type of lifestyle. Um, yeah. Because we're, the, the plan was to remove ourselves, the way we have now into more of a homeschooling homestead. Uh, living kind of more of a, an imbalanced type of, uh, nature and I was discovering passions at that point that in politics and then, Bitcoin later. And so to kind of be all over the map and still doing this side of it and making sure that, the wheels on the bus stayed on the bus at home, right? It's like that. I think that was probably the hardest part for me, but I think that's. Any young man that has a family out there, I think that's what you're going to find is you're going to start to sacrifice what you can sacrifice so that your kids can have a better life and your, your family can have a better life. And it just, it makes sense, right? If that's what

you value, then you put that ahead of that extra vacation or the nicer. Whatever, car, whatever it is. So, actually, so Shane, on that, I mean, maybe you can comment on this. Are we, a lot of people will ask initially, like, what kind of curriculum, and it gets into the, the traditional school type of ideas of what you're supposed to teach. I personally, I really I am excited by what homeschooling parents do that is not traditional. I mean, you, I mean, it could be anything from business to ethics to, um, fitness. I mean, there's, there's so many more life skills. If the kids are with you when you're figuring out what you're going to cook for dinner and go in the grocery store and like, it's just, it's just different. So I'd love to hear from you guys what, what kind of things outside the normal traditional. Curriculum that you would get in a public school. What are some of the things that you guys have? That you may be one or two that you feel really strong about that. You're glad that you've brought into the homeschooling realm

Do you want to tell them what you just thought about having the kids do with you each? I think you said each week you're gonna ask them

to oh, yeah I mean, this is just an idea off the top of my head. I was like, we were you know We kind of brainstorm stuff at night and we'll have conversations not fun stuff and I was like I really think it may be time for the kids to teach me something once a week and That's, it obviously, I come from a background where Um, it was learn one, do one, show one, which means you learn one, you learn something, then you do the practical application side of it so that you kind of understand the functionality of it and you learn it to the point where now you can teach it. So that's that idea that, can push somebody to, a certain level of stress. You know, you don't want to overload your kids every week with something crazy, but you know, um, for example, like, uh, Back in the day when we were growing up, my mom and dad were always like, you better find something else to do besides play this stupid video games because you'll never make a living in that figure, 20, 30, 40 years later now, I don't know how, but, um, now there's a trillion dollar industry in video games. And had I stuck with. That billionaires. Yeah, I would have. I would have known better. So obviously I have, children that are interested in all the same stuff I was at the time, but I also understand that, hey, there is a market for this and there is something to be understood. So as soon as I started telling my oldest, like, well, if you, if you're going to spend this kind of time on this, you need to figure out how to monetize it. You need to figure out how to make a business out of it. And the next thing I know, he has set up some servers. He's got some bots that are operating in the background. And I'm not a technical guy like that. Like, I don't know any of that kind of stuff. So as he comes along and starts to like showing me, Hey, dad, you want to talk about discord? And I'm like, no, man, like I, but I should, I should sit there and I should have those conversations, right? And I should be like, yeah, you know what? Once a week, teach me something that you're doing. Teach me something that you're thinking about. Teach me something that you've learned. That you may not think I know and I think that's going to be one of the best things about it is kind of the challenge. And so that's, that's a little, you know, a little, uh, outside of, I think the normal world where I don't think parents want to be taught by their kids, um, for anything. But I think it actually stimulates their, their growth. And if you want to take the next

one. Um, I was just going to say, you know, something as simple as like, I think it was mostly last year when I really got into making bread. Like our daughter can, she, she was eight at the time and she can, she might need a refresher now, but at that point she had done it with me so much that she could literally make the sandwich bread for the week because I was trying not to buy it from the grocery store. So, um, if I had to run out and, you know, go run an errand and the bread was rising or on its first rise, I could call her or text her and be like, Hey, will you. Take care of doing the next rise for the bread and like divide it into the pans and she knew how to do it and she could handle it. Um, another thing I just all three in general, we have chickens and they all do different things for them and with them so that it's not all falling on us. Yeah, there's

38 of them. So it's not like a small number of chickens. Our oldest

is capable, pretty capable of taking care of cleaning the whole coop out and refreshing the bedding and he's strong enough now that he can fill the feeder with a 40, 30 pound bag of feed. Um, and then usually the other two kind of help with putting away the chickens at night or gathering the eggs and, and all that. I mean, that is nothing. That would have happened a few years ago because we one didn't live in an area that we could even have chickens or consider having chickens and I don't know. I mean, I'm sure there are kids in public school that their families own chickens, but it it just made it. It's like a nice thing that they have learned how to do and can do in the future if they so choose to raise chickens.

Yeah, you hit there's so many things going through my head. I mean, you're teaching a responsibility. They are a contributing member of the, of the family. They, if they don't do something, there's consequences. If they keep the door open at night and the... Raccoons get in or something like, well, you know, there's some, there's some real consequences. We, we had chickens. So, uh, we, we had problems with dogs and chickens too. Um, but I think, I think teaching responsibility, having a little bit of stress, not enough to the, they need to fail a little bit to learn. And there's a lot of things in there. So who, who teaches about money? Cause I'm sure as Bitcoiners. That's that's that

James. Yeah, but I would say you know money is is somewhere the fiat end of it Well, it's so the thing is is it's so nuanced and it touches everything and so there's there's a there's a really cool compliment here yeah, I'm kind of the the economics and the money guy obviously and Um, what's funny is, this kind of started, when I was thinking, Hey, listen, as we're being better, becoming better versions of ourself to support a family, um, one of the things that crossed my mind was like, well, I need to, I need to learn how to make money. make money. I need to learn how to make money work instead of I, instead of working for money. And when that thought crossed my mind, I started going down the Austrian rabbit hole. Uh, this was probably, I don't know, 2011, 2012 sometime. Uh, it was, you know, somewhere around the Ron Paul revolution. And as I began to learn more and more and more, I kind of just got to the point where I understood that the people who knew money. those guys were never really broke. Well, there were some guys, obviously took some bad risk and made some bad decisions, but those guys, you know, kind of got washed out. And so to, to have that. And then to have children that were actually interested in this whole process because of what I was doing politically at the time and, and then homeschooling and then the, the drives that we would take our, kids on in terms of, to practice, for jujitsu. So we would have these conversations and it turned out that, the kids were actually very interested in these kinds of things, especially my oldest, uh, Jackson. So he was, he was one of those kids that would, Here's something, we, we discuss it and then you ask a follow up question, which was actually, really easy to start teaching. And, um, on the, on the other side of this now, all three kids have a business and this is kind of the compliment I was talking about is, as, as they've grown and now they've all started their own businesses. Um, the, the understanding of not only money, but investing it and reinvesting it into the company that they're running so that they are trying to, grow a business and then making the money work for them in Bitcoin, that's, that's one of those things that we've, we've really kind of, And now to the point where like kids are coming up, handing us, wads of cash and going, all right, let's write this down in our notebook of how many sats you owe me when it's time for me to come back and get this kind of stuff. So it, the money aspect is, uh, is, is, is very upfront. And it's really interesting to see. That the kids have figured out that if you provide something to the market, um, that provides value, they're going to give you value back and make money. And that's, when you've got a nine year old who can go out and make over a hundred dollars an hour selling bead bracelets, it's, it's one of those proof of work things. Yeah.

Yeah. Plus It's exciting to be able to watch the kids learn, right? There's something like that and I know that I want to ask you guys like what are your biggest surprises are but like for me One of the surprises was just how much kids can absorb and if you don't hold them back with any preconceived notions They can learn anything And learn it way earlier, right? They'll figure out the money, the chicken, the, the, the whatever. But, um, from your perspective, what was like, what's been like a, something that was very surprising? Something you did not expect when you started homeschooling?

Um,

I mean, you just said about, you know, what kids can learn something that you don't even realize is possible at a specific age or a certain age. Like they hit that milestone way before it's expected. I would say Sawyer, our daughter. She, she's, she's the smart one. She's, she retains so much and like, she'll be, you know, I'll be drilling my oldest about some math problem that he's just. It's not clicking, and she's sitting across the table, not looking at the numbers in front of her. He's sitting there trying to figure out a basic, you know, division fact, and she's, she's just looking at me like, can I say it? Can I say it? Can I say it? And he gets so mad at her, but she knows it. She's, she's honestly a full year ahead in math, probably even more if I really got down to it. Um, she's. It's. She's a little math whiz for sure. Um,

surprising. I think more or less what the culmination of this has been so far is the most surprising. I think when, I talk about this quite a bit, and I think we talked about it on the panel together, is this, this understanding that I think, John Taylor Gatto put it very, very succinctly, is genius is actually a extraordinarily common thing. The problem is, is the, the system of school that we have that, says sit down, submit to the culture, don't think out, don't just regurgitate, get good grades, get a job, go to college, and pay taxes and all that stuff for the rest of your life. Right? So, and that's the culmination of the antithesis of this is, trying to, to create well functioning human beings that have explored their passions and in having the time dedicated to exploring those passions has really found a niche in the world and that niche because of the time and the passion and the work that, that provides a genius level of understanding, you're, you're much more likely to get to that 10, 000 hours of masterful level of whatever it is. If you're allowed to just absolutely devour whatever information you want that is your passion. And so to see these kids be able to not only do that, but to, to be able to, now that they're coming into teenage years, get a little extra rest. Yeah, instead of waking up at like 6 or 7 a. m. to, rush out the door and be force fed, gobbledygook by the state for, how many hours plus homework is like, no, I'd actually, I think what's healthier is letting them sleep in a little bit, um, take care of their chores in the beginning of the day. Knock out what they need in terms of school and then turning them loose to go down those paths that they choose so that, at some point they are teaching us things. They are running those things and you start to see these human beings develop much earlier. They can communicate with all, all sorts of, all ages, which is, is, the common place in society instead of being in these age restricted groups with the lowest common denominator, um, and just seeing, these, these amazing personalities develop out of those things because they have freedom, and that, piece that you talk about, is, taking self custody of education. those kids, as soon as they can read and write and do some simple, math, yeah, with the power of, these things that are monitored, what a education is super cheap. It's, it's the indoctrination that's expensive. And so this, this has gotten to the point where. I, I've just, I'm tickled to death at who these kids are becoming. And, as a parent, you not only want to be proud, but you want them to be ready, as, as young adults, when it's time for them to launch. And so I think that's probably what I'm most excited about is like this contribution to society through, through our kids is like, all right, here, here's how we did it. Putting out three pretty good contributions. That's what we think so far anyway. Not to toot our own horns. Yeah. So when you

guys started, was that. One of the motivators was to avoid the conformity like it or was that something that you learned later

you

That was even on my brainwaves like I I

I've got a few books behind me back here But I think my most influence Influential person than I ever read was John Taylor Gatto. He was the one that kind of broke the spell and he did it in a way When I was overseas, I had just come off the battlefield in Fallujah in November of oh four, and I got this book on my bed called The Underground History of American Education, and I was just like, oh, why do I wanna read this? Oh my God. I read it and it was all about 19 or 17 hundreds Prussia and creating a monoculture to go off and, go turn knobs and push buttons, basically, homogenous culture and if they needed to go to war. This, this indoctrinated patriotism to go and invade other lands and take blood. I was already overseas doing that. And I was just like, Oh, wow. Like, so yeah, I mean, that's, that was what kind of woke me up. And so, having John Taylor Gatto is, my, I don't know, the guy that, kind of did this for me. It was one of those things where it was like, Yeah, I don't think I can, I don't think in good conscience, I can have my kids go through the same process.

Yeah. So Merith, what was it for you then, if it wasn't avoiding the nonconformity or whatever you want to call that, that whole,

that whole piece? What was it for you?

I just didn't feel like, I couldn't imagine sending our oldest at the time, like, putting him on a school bus and he was so little and, I mean, he wasn't little, our kids are pretty tall children, but I just, The thought of him going somewhere where I could do everything he would be doing at school. It's like, I, I got this. I can do this. And initially, I don't know how it is in your area. You know, a lot of the. Preschools and the pre k classes are offered at like local churches and stuff. And I was like, oh, what's the harm? We can just send him. Do you remember this? Send him to a little preschool. He'll have fun He'll do arts and crafts and come home and tell us stories but nope, we kept him with us and yeah for me it was more I just I couldn't imagine not having him home with me.

Yeah, I wish that people, like, if we're doing audio only, could see how, how big your smile is when you're, like, talking about, like, this. Because I'm totally, I mean, well, I need to let you jump in here, sweetie. maybe you can comment on why, you know, just briefly why you wanted to spend time with the kids.

Um, originally, like you, I was going to, um, Go back to work and we actually had a nanny ready to go and I was going to stay home for six months and then hand the baby over to her and I was going to go back to work and I was holding the baby in my arms After we got home from the hospital and I thought, you know, if I went back to work, I won't ever see her I'll leave the house before she wakes up I'll come home after she goes to bed and because I was I was gonna go into investment banking and I was like She's gonna grow up not knowing who I am and I'm not going to know who she is. So we decided to stay home and That what you mentioned, uh, about being a school teacher, having a background, that was the thing that I, that scared me the most because I don't have a teaching background. And I assumed that in order for you to homeschool, you needed to have a school teacher background. So that was one of the first things I had to get over. But I think in terms of young moms who are listening to this podcast, something that, that is sort of a day to day challenge that I, I would like for you to talk about is because your kids are close in age and you started when you were first was Preschool age. It sounds like at the time you would have had either a one year old or a newborn and you were pregnant So, how do you balance that for the new moms out there?

so honestly when I first started with our oldest it was like the easiest time because We did have a newborn. I guess she was newborn through that

So, yeah, we had Jackson who's two years older than his brother, Henry, who's barely, 13 months, 14 months, the last two are

super close older. Um, but yeah, that was honestly the easiest time period because the baby was still sleeping like two, sometimes three naps a day. Usually I could get the youngest and, um, the middle, Our middle guy to to nap at least once at the same time, and that's when we did our, you know, our, our real school and, um, it was, it's fast. It was really fast. It was maybe sometimes it was 2 hours. Sometimes it was as little as an hour, but he was like, you three, four years old. Like you don't need to do much during that time. And, and at that time, it wasn't, you know, we didn't have, I didn't have a curriculum. I wasn't doing it. I was reading with him. We were reading. We were learning sounds. We were, uh, learning colors and numbers and, you know, simple math, adding, subtracting with little blocks or counters or cars. Like it was just more intentional during that time when the younger two were sleeping. And after that, we, we just, yeah. It was playing all day long. We just played and ate snacks and they drank milk all the time.

And you black all that stuff out. Eventually you just, you get through, I don't know, the first six years. And you're like, Oh, what happened?

The first, the first time that it was challenging was honestly, when, when our second started needing to do like when he was like of kindergarten age, because at that point. Jackson was two years older, so I was doing second grade work with him. So that's a little more serious. I thought so at the time. Now, looking back, no, it wasn't. Was second grade that serious for our younger two? No. Um, But initially, timing those naps when their siblings are babies and still napping, like, that's when you do school and that's when you get the, you know, the real, I don't want to say serious, but concentrated, like math reading, get it done while their other siblings are asleep. And then, the rest of the day read stories. We would go to the library story time. We would go on field trips with other families to local, like. Farms or apple orchards, pumpkin farms, do all that kind of stuff. I did a lot more of that stuff

when they were young. You guys, you guys even had mops.

Oh, that's right. I went to mothers of preschoolers. It's pretty common in a lot of areas. It's I think a nationwide thing. So we did mops for three or four years and I made, I honestly have a friend that we still, um, go to, you know, little field trips with and all our kids are the. Same age so it's nice for them to see each other every once in a while because we don't live close to them anymore

lots of snacks lots of diaper bags lots of Just hanging out with your kids and try and yeah in doing, the normal stuff, you know It's like it's Sesame Street only in real life And if you can make it fun, then they're they're they're gonna they're gonna want to learn Right. I

mean, and this was back when I was very fixated on our school time looking like school too. So had it been Meredith of today back then, it probably would have been a lot more laid back. We would have been. incorporating a lot more chores, I think, back then. Easy, easy little kid chores that I should have made them do but didn't.

Yeah, I do. I think, I think, um, one of the things that new, new potential homeschoolers might be looking at is just they feel like they have to be so structured and so they are trying to Like what you're saying, they're thinking traditional, they're thinking you're sitting at a desk, you're forcing your child holding a pen, all that stuff, and you have two little ones running around, right? Um, but what I realized really quickly was we can get a whole lot more done in a lot shorter period than schools can. So if you think about preschools, you're dropping them off for three hours, their 15 minutes. So if we can knock it out in 15 minutes, the rest of the time, they just play. Like you're saying, they're living the real life and they're interacting. So I think that's something that we, we should share with new moms to reassure them that it's okay. Kind of like what you're saying, like now. Yeah. When you're looking back, it's like, we don't need to take it that seriously, especially at that age anyway.

Yeah. That was really hard for me to get over coming from an entire life, either being in public education or teaching in public education. Like I thought. The fact that it just took us 10 minutes to do an addition lesson like that probably isn't okay and it should be longer. I feel like sometimes you would come out if when you were working at home, you'd be like, why aren't you guys doing anything? I'm like, well, we're done like, and you know, the kids are playing or whatever. And I think I think sometimes. You're like, why aren't you guys doing more

work? The principle. Yeah. That's kind of the rule. Because obviously I work from home and so the school room and the home are never that far apart. So you know, you're always checking in on stuff, but to, to the young mothers and fathers that are out there that, uh, are, are thinking about doing this and are doing this, um, I, for you guys, I don't know, even you, I don't know what age you kind of figured out that your mom and dad didn't have any. clue as to what the hell they were doing with you when they were, you, you were growing up, just like you don't have any, instruction manual on how to do this. Like, this is, this is trial by fire kind of stuff. I know they write books and all that kind of stuff as other people, however, like your, your situation is unique. There's a lot of nuance in all of these things. And, as long as you don't give up and you fail fast and you learn from your mistakes. That's, that's the whole point to this entire thing that we're doing in terms of life. So yeah, don't be intimidated like, Oh, I don't know how to do this. You'll figure it out. You really will. Yeah, get some bumps

and bruises along the way and that's how you, that's how you learn your, I think you're also teaching them time preference. Like you're saying the most important thing is, did you understand this lesson or not? Did we accomplish that? Not, can you sit still in a chair for 45 minutes or I'm going to give you a drug and give you a label of some kind, right? Um, kids are absorbing that framework of how you a lot of really cool things there.

I, there's something I want to challenge you a little bit on Shane that you mentioned before

reading books. No,

no, we, we have thousands and thousands of books in our house. I mean, this is like a tiny little fraction of, I mean, anyway, but there, there's a, um, at the trend in the homeschooling community and we've been in it longer than you. Um, by about 10 years, I think, and so I'm, I'm seeing it everywhere and we've moved across multiple states and all different groups, but the trend is always there. We're teaching kids how to start a business, run a business. We're, we're teaching them money in that really practical way. I think my challenge is. To the, that mentality is we, it's almost like, okay, growing up, I'm Chinese. We had one of five occupations to choose from. You can either be a doctor, engineer, a lawyer, a computer scientist, or something else, um, probably probably business. And outside of that, you are not allowed to pursue anything else professionally, right? And so if we're, as Bitcoiners, on the one hand, we're saying Bitcoin is simplifying things. The reason that the fiat system is forcing us to look at money and earning money and that whole process of, um, uh, being able to, like, earn a living that is... We're trying to teach that to our kids, but at the same time, I feel like we're walking a really, really thin line to balance that. You know, maybe, maybe somebody's child really just wants to, to be an astrophysicist. And all he wants to do is calculate math. And he doesn't care about generating some type of value in exchange for money right now at. Elementary school age and, but when we are talking about it and talking about it with them and we do the same, we do the same thing to our kids, right? A lot of families do the same thing, but it's almost like we're forcing them to continually focus their money on generating, their eyes and their mind on generating income by providing value for, in exchange for compensation and, Isn't that what we're trying to get away from with the Bitcoin standard, which is you can take your eye off of that because Bitcoin makes it simpler because we're not trying to fight this inflationary pressure. And

you're not trying to conform all your kids into one.

Yeah. I'm not sure if I'm explaining it right. You know, like I don't think all people should be business people personally, because there are people who should be scientists or artists or. Yeah. Okay.

Anyway, yeah, no, great, great question. Um, I think, one of the biggest things that I always see in, in Bitcoin is proof of work. Um, and proof of work is one of those things where, um, the, it's, it's an understanding that there is a value that you're going to have to provide to society somehow, that's, and that's up to the passion. Um, just because our kids, uh, can, yeah. Put out a, a decent product and they like doing it. It doesn't mean that that's for all of them forever. It's a season. And so, in a, in a season, it's, it's almost like a course so that they can, they can do this. They can either, Excel at it or drop it. For whatever else that they're going to do, but at some point they do have to have skin in the game and skin in the game in a Bitcoin society is the name of it because what we, obviously as Bitcoin maximalists, what we don't want are rent seekers. Like what we're trying to do is cut the rent seekers out of our lives. So if they're not providing value and it's in, and they don't really have skin in the game. I hate to say it, but it's going to be obviously awfully hard to eat at some point, these, these lucky kids that do get into Bitcoin early and inherited. Now, this is going to be an interesting thing, I think, is as kids that have, provided, maybe a couple thousand dollars into Bitcoin by the time they were like 10, 11, 12 years old. And, by the time they're 22 22 and they've gone to through three having events. They might be able to do whatever they want. They might be, they might be those guys that see talent, see passion, and now are the people that can deploy those resources into, philanthropy. Like, and so, like, it is a curious world in this changing paradigm, and I think that's maybe the most important. thing for people to understand is we're on a gradient now, right? Like we're, we're on a fiat standard right now for the most part, but we're, we're quickly moving as of today, um, towards more of a, a Bitcoin standard. So, to, to say at any point where, it's right or wrong, I think it's like, where are you at on the continuum and, and how, how are you operating? Are you, are you operating in a and Naeem Bukele, El Salvador, uh, Bitcoin continuum down there. If you are, you're probably way further ahead. If you're not, and you're still here in the U S and the Fiat standard, then, maybe you're going to have to make some adjustments. Maybe you're going to have to create some community around you. And I think a lot of that's going to kind of determine. Um, your path, your passion, uh, and, and, and how you're going to, to make not only ends meet, but how to really fulfill, that, that calling that you have, that you were, innately, uh, given by, the universe or God or whatever, higher power you subscribe to.

The reason I mention it is because, um, we have four kids and all through growing up, every time we see them. Demonstrate that they're good at something immediately. Scott's giving them ideas to monetize and we've gotten.

Yeah. So this, this question is, is also internal just so you know, like this is not, and we've gotten

to the point where, um, our daughters, they, we talk all the time and they're in college and. One of them I was giving her an idea because she's really good in meditation and yoga and stuff like that. I'm like, why don't you start your own channel and then you can monetize and you can build up a farm. She goes, Mom, I really don't want to turn every single one of my passion into a job. Yeah, but that's what we're Always talking about, you know, so

I'm split on this. I understand you don't want to focus your kids, but on the other hand, like, I, I think that there are a lot of people out there who are trying to gear their kids to become a rent seeker, like to, to be, to be a better rent seeker. And I think the public schools now you're trying to conform to how to be a better rent seeker at the end, as opposed to a young adult that has critical thinking skills and can challenge. Um, So, I mean, exposure to that, I mean, that's a...

I guess I don't do it for everything. And I definitely agree, like... You encourage it when it's appropriate, I would say. But there are some things, where I guess maybe I have said that with video games. Like, listen, there's a... I think in the back of my head, subconsciously, is like, Look, if this is what you're going to do, there's a giant market for it. Figure out your piece of it and, and maybe grow that. But there you're, you're exactly right. Talia is, is, when, when you look at this, this passion and like soulful stuff that, doesn't necessarily need to be marketed, um, I, I see it in my own life, whether it's spending time in the outdoors. Mostly spending time in the outdoors, honestly, or with your kids, right? Like, a lot of people will monetize their kids in terms of, social media and everything. All that kind of stuff. And like, I think, maybe that's a straight, like, that's not for us. But, um, yeah, the, the ability to just have a hobby and enjoy the heck out of your hobby and be fulfilled by it and find, great meaning in it and mastery and. really, maybe that's just your thing and nobody else has to share that or make money on it. Yeah, honestly, I think it's a it's an amazing thing for me. Like I I love woodworking. I love doing all that kind of stuff and As soon as I monetized it, I kind of I burned out. He lost the time to

do it, too Yeah, um, I will say too like as far as college goes we went we both went to college We both went through the public school system before college. Um Our kids here and there will ask, like, do I need to go to college or how do you

answer that? College? Um, no, 100%. No,

I mean, it depends. Do I want you to go to college just to figure out life? Probably not

expensive proposition these

days. Um, but if you become really passionate about, I could see Sawyer, she's mentioned a couple times in the past wanting to be a doctor of some sort, like, If that's your thing, and you want to go become a pediatrician, and advocate for kids, and take care of kids, then who are we to stop you?

Yeah, I mean, there are certain things, like if you're going to be an engineer, if you're going to be a lawyer, if you're going to be a doctor, you know, things of those nature, right? If I'm being

honest, if you want to be a teacher, I really don't think it's necessary. There we go. I don't. But. I'm sure it could help some people who maybe aren't quite as passionate about teaching

others. On the economic front, for anybody that's wondering is, if you think you're, you're, you're kids or you should go to college, find the value proposition in it, right? Is, is the job that you can get coming out of school going to be profitable enough to where you can pay for the debt that you're probably going to incur? Um, unless you're working a full time job and maybe not taking a full load like I did, um, that's, that's your value proposition is that doesn't make economic sense. If it doesn't make economic sense, then you definitely should not go to college.

We have dual enrollment opportunities and in Georgia. So I think it's once they hit about 15 years old, they can apply at certain colleges and we have a few pretty close to us. Good technical school. There's a, you know, huge list of what they can get and in Georgia, it's free. So I'm really going to encourage that for the kids to test the waters before they decide to commit to going to a university of any kind.

Yeah, there's a ton of resources. I agree with both of what you're saying for, for listeners who haven't yet started their journey or maybe their kids are really young. The other thing I would just mention is notice that none of us are talking about any concern about getting into school if you wanted to. Right. Just because you homeschool doesn't mean that you are somehow cut off from that route if that's actually what you want to pursue or your, your child wants to pursue. that wasn't even a, that's not a concern that if you're worried about that as you're starting your homeschooling journey, it's more of what's right for your kid, which is the right question to ask.

Say that again. How did that process go for your kids that chose to go to, to college?

Oh, here goes. Okay. So that was during COVID. So all four, all four of my kids actually, they graduated about the same time. My oldest graduated right at the beginning of COVID. So everything was shut down. So she took a year off. So the following year we did school applications for four kids at the same time. And it, it was painful. And all four of them did go to school. Um, can I

say something real quick? So Meredith, just so you know, so our kids, we have a real tight shot group. So all four kids, like within five years. And then when Tali was teaching, she didn't hold any of them back. So, if our youngest happened to be in the same room with our oldest, like, they just got off the same thing. It's like she was just teaching them. And, and this, so, so what it led to was a situation where the youngest was ready to graduate at the high school level really early. Because Tali just let him go along with all the other classes with the, with the others. So the reason we were in that situation was, first of all, their ages were close together. And then Tali's method of saying that you're, you know, you guys are all in this, we're going to go do X subject or X activity. So anyway, sorry. No,

that's fine. So, so they all got in and they all did do college for at least one year before my two boys decided to drop out. And we had a conversation. Uh, with our oldest one, uh, oldest boy, and he said, why are you letting me, why are you giving me the option to drop out? Because we both also went through the whole public school system and brand name colleges, brand name graduate schools and stuff. And so he was like, why are you letting me drop out now? And I said, but because you've gone for a year, you, you've seen what it's like and you have gathered data. And if we have new data and we don't reevaluate our decision, then that's. Just really stupid on our part. So they went out they gathered data. He did not like what he saw He didn't think it was worth the money and the time that we were investing. So he said I'm dropping out I said, well, that's fine. You better have a plan and he does you know, he's engaged he's working a good job They're planning he and his fiance they're planning out their life out. So Our two girls decided to go back because they wanted that social exposure. They understand they don't go to school for the academic component because the academic component is easy. You can get that for free on the internet, you know, you can get it for free all different places, but they wanted to be in that environment because they grew up in the homeschooling community and they wanted. To have that experience before they enter adulthood, but that's that was their choice. We evaluated up to the first year. They decided to go back with the understanding of their pros and cons of the debt and the job placement opportunities, things like that. But I do want to address 1 thing that you mentioned when our 4 kids were growing up. That they graduated around the same time. So, it goes back to our discussion earlier in our podcast about, like, sort of the balance between giving them free time and teaching them self discipline. I think Shane mentioned that, having, giving the kids free, big blocks of free time so they can pursue their passion is so important because they don't get that in either public school or private school, right? So, if you look at our oldest kid and our youngest kid, the oldest kid was Very structured, very, very structured up until she left college because I had all my attention on her. Well, when the youngest, when he was 12 and he graduated school, I didn't feel right to continue to over structure him because I... If I'm going to graduate him from high school, I need to place some trust on him. But if you look at the two of them, I hope they're not listening. But if you look at the two of them, in terms of self discipline, it's very interesting that they both have this incredible level of self discipline, but in different areas. So Caden has tremendous He's very, very good technically and on the computer, very independent, and he is extremely self disciplined when he chooses to believe in the value of the task. And then he is like military level discipline, right? Brianna is disciplined. Across the board because she believes that that's what she should do and if you look at their energy Expenditure in being disciplined in what they're doing Caden reserves a lot of it for his own expression and then he'll use it when it's necessary whereas Brianna uses most of her energy trying to So that's such a fine line, you know, which way do you go, right? Do you, do you, do you push on the self discipline or do you push on the freedom to self express? Where

are you guys on this? Like where, I mean, what's, what's the next step for you guys? Cause you guys are, I mean, the kids are a little bit younger than where we're at. What are you guys thinking about?

Um, I would say that our youngest has a lot more self discipline. I, I, I'm trying to work this year, especially with the oldest on the self discipline aspect of of school. And it's it's school. It's not other things. I don't think it's it's schoolwork. And I don't, I don't want to require school tasks of him. But I was, I was telling you the other day, like, he does need to know how to do some basic things. He should be able to write it. An essay and explain. I don't care what the topic is. Explain something to me. Tell me something. Tell me your beliefs about something, right? Right. We, you know, your opinion, um, they do need to have basic math skills. I feel like he's still at the level of needing some more basic math skills. Um, the so, for me, self discipline is maybe even a bigger focus than just trying to cover curriculum. Like, I want. them to be able to be like, okay, what do I need to accomplish today? I'm going to get that done first, all of it, and then I can do what I want and, and, you know, explore my self expression for the rest of the day. What would you say?

I think this is, this is, I think, really the value of homeschool. Um, Because you, you so intimately know each and every one of these kids, like, their, their personalities, their hopes, their dreams, their fears, all of these things. And because it's nuanced and I, I got to learn this firsthand growing up with a left handed brother and a very right handed father, right? Like the very right handed Irish father was like, this is the way it is. It's done. And when the left handed younger brother would say, look at the way I did the same thing. And it would just get absolutely, berated and rejected. I saw that and I, I, I got to kind of sit there and take a, be a judge, right, of, Hey, dad, actually, he did this. And not only did he do it, he actually did it in a more efficient way than you did. And he came about it from a completely different way. And so to, to see that and to also have a left handed child. It's, it's, it's kind of been a blessing to see this, determination where some people would see a left handed child, drawing and using technology and making, designs and scripts, like as, as maybe a waste of time. And I see it as marketing. I see it as, promotion. I see it as, some of the most important things that. All successful businesses need, um, with, with Sawyer, there's our youngest girl that she mentioned, she's, I think like your oldest girl and she's just very, very structured, very dedicated. She knows what she needs to do. She does it very well. And she just, she likes a checklist, but she, she also likes that, affirmation that like, I, I know if I do these things. That I'm going to get praise. And then, there's your oldest. And being the oldest child, I also see, like, I have to learn my own way. And I'm probably going to be that stubborn hard head that's going to make more mistakes. I'm going to make those mistakes faster. I'm probably going to make bigger mistakes. But at the end of the day, Having the rope to do that, having, having that leash that is like, Hey man, you get to hang yourself with this or, this is going to be your greatest asset. And so when I see, you guys struggle and all that kind of things with, math or whatever, I also know that I was that way. And what I've been able to accomplish, given the fact that. I am stubborn and extremely goal oriented and have a, have something in my mind that I'm like, I can go do this. And so, I think it's... I think that's the greatest thing about homeschool is you just, you get to really understand the passion, the understanding of the dreams and the fears of your kids, and you can help them, basically with a rudder, more or less, rather than that guiding, manipulative hand. And so that's, that's kind of the way I see it is. you might not see it yet, but you know, in the years to come, like those kids are going to, they're going to figure it out. And because you've provided such a loving and endearing environment for them, most of the time, it's going to make you proud. Yeah. And you're letting them

fail too. I mean, you're encouraging them to, to figure it out. That's really cool. So just to kind of start to kind of bring it home. Um, Oh, wait, I, I.

Okay, go for it. Um, so earlier when you were talking about this new thing that you're doing with your kids, asking them to teach you something that they know. I absolutely love that idea. And this is something that I didn't understand when the kids were younger and I was a new teacher. I didn't understand the value of allowing your child to teach what he or she knows. I thought because the, the, how I learned it, they were young and we brought them to a karate school. And the karate teacher was always talking about how the older kids should teach the younger kids. Right. And my, my oldest one at the time, how old was she? Like seven or something. And I was like, no, no, no. She can't teach. She needs to be here to learn. You need to be teaching her. And the teach their sensei was, was adamant. She's like, no, she will learn by teaching others. And I didn't understand that. But I have since, of course, changed my mind because I see so much value in me trying to teach them. I feel like I had a whole new education for myself when I was homeschooling them. So for the new parents out there, even if your child is very young, like let's say your child is three years old and he has a two year old. sister, right? Like let him show her how to do something. It boosts his confidence. It allows him to understand what he actually knows and he'll feel really capable. And that's more important really than the ABCs.

Yeah. A lot there. That's a sense of accomplishment is that that's huge. You know, it's in the earlier you can get a sense of accomplishment and he prays on that accomplishment and he feels or she feels Like, wow, you know, I'm actually contributing to our family or this world or this sense of like being, you know, that, that, that sense of being in terms of creating a family, that, that is, I mean, that's a critical piece to, to really, you know, fostering something that's, that's bigger than yourself. Yeah.

No, I love this stuff. All right. So one of the things that I really wanted to ask you guys. I had this image of some of the people who might be listening to the show. And in my head, I'm thinking of a younger couple. Maybe they have a newborn or a toddler, or maybe they're just thinking about having a family. And so with with them in mind. What would you, for each of you, what would be like a piece of advice? It could be anything from what we were just talking about or it can be, books or whatever But just what would be something that you would say, you know, here's something to really think about or take home

Um, do you have

something? I'd say, trust yourself. And, and, and really if I, if I was talking to myself, 12 years ago on, on this matter is I would say, hey man You're like you've done harder things you've you've you've and the thing is is like just getting to the point where you're a father You've done some I hope you've done some hard things, Marriage is one of those things that you got to work at school You know Especially if you didn't like school was one of those things you had to work at possibly having a job that you just you know Had to eat a pile of poo at that wasn't an easy thing to do, you know So it's like look Kids are actually a great blessing and they're a great reward in the more time that you sink into them. better you're going to feel about the entire situation. So trust yourself, trust that you, like you and your partner are made to do this. I mean, literally, this is what the species is about. Have kids, be a family, raise them to, to go out and be able to contribute to society and continue to the species. And so. You're innately programmed with this intelligence to be able to do this kind of thing and to do it well and this old fashioned idea that, a wife's place isn't as the homemaker and it's discounted as some sort of I don't know, less than rather than this is what makes everything else work. Trust. This is natural trust that you are programmed to do this kind of thing. Trust that you will fail along the way and trust that you can get back up from it because at the end of the day. I don't know looking back now 12 years if I if I would have known where I would be now because We made that life decision to homeschool to have her be the homemaker and for me to go out and get After it and put all that, Stubbornness and energy into not failing or I should say failing fast and learning from those things I would be like, I would be like, dude, it gets way better. It gets so much better. Your relationship with your wife is going to be better. And your relationship with your family is going to be better. Your relationship with your community is going to be better. You're going to be able to contribute more and more and more, not only to your family, but you're going to be able to do these kinds of things where. You can contribute to other people's families, young couples who are nervous about this kind of thing, taking the edge off like this is the opportunity that you have before you to do something so, so much bigger than yourself. That it is a, not only a blessing, but I think it is a calling for young men, especially. And, I'd be remiss if I didn't say, women, if you're, if you're not considering, being a stay at home mom, this might be your greatest calling on this planet.

You're not wasting your life by doing it. Yeah. I would say two things, and I'm not going to speak as eloquently as Shane does, but I think my first is just to not be afraid to follow your own path. Um, we obviously we, we've mentioned, we, we both are products of public school and going to college and he even joined the Marine Corps. We obviously followed paths that are pretty cookie cutter for the first part of our life. And. Now, I think more and more there are people that are choosing a path similar to ours, but we still are pretty much beaten to our own drum and following our own path. And many people and many friends that we have maintained in our life don't homeschool their kids. Um, many of our family members don't homeschool their kids. We are the outsiders, I would say, but

we also, they also know that there's something special. Yeah. And that's, and they'll

all, all everybody in our life will, I think would be the first to admit that, that our kids are unique, but not in a weird homeschool kind of way. We're not those weird homeschool. There there's, I don't want to sound braggy, but they're special. They, they know how to interact with others. They know how. to show empathy and they they're not afraid to Be friendly with you know a new person they come across and follow your own path Second thing I would say is this is very teachery of me and me I'd say more teachery than mothery but and those are not words. I'm sorry I know that drives you nuts Read to your kids Every day. I still every day. There are days when we don't technically do school, but every day I am still reading aloud to my kids. Um, there was a time when they all would have headlamps and would be reading in bed. I don't know that it happens quite as much as it used to, but. Even if you're having a rough homeschool day and just nothing is going right, that math lesson's not going right, no one's listening, no one's doing it, they're fighting, they're crying, grab a book and just start reading to your kids. And nine times out of ten, it'll just reset the day and everything will be better. Reading is important.

Love it. Love

it. Can I add one more thing? Yeah, as many as you want.

Because,

go ahead. I think... I think this is really important for those young guys to have fun with your kids, um, and, and learn patience as fast as possible. If you can, if you can have fun and make time, um, those two things, like, it, it goes so fast. And before you know it, like, they're as tall as you are and, sometimes they are picking other things rather than hanging out with you and, like, right, like, and so. if, if you do those things, if you have fun and you, you're approachable and you can do all these things, like those kids are going to want to be around you. Um, and they're going to have, I think those memories that, hopefully they instill and then in their next generation as well. Yeah. Those

life experiences, especially, I mean, the, I don't know what the statistics are, but once you're past 18, the number of minutes you're going to spend with your parents is like. Compared to how many while you were growing up and so, yeah, just treasure every one of those experiences that you can get. So this is awesome. I could see like wanting to just come back to you guys with other questions. Uh, are you guys comfortable with letting people reach out to you if there's other Bitcoin homeschoolers that wanted to? And if you are, then let us know, um, how they could reach you.

Um, you can always reach me, uh, Shane at... Shane Hazel dot com or um, I guess you'd probably just reach out to me and then I'll just, I'll just, I'll just make out, uh, make the connection, um, and then, uh, that's the, that's the, the, probably the best way is just an email. Email. Okay. I

have a podcast or not a podcast. I still technically have it's a blog. Um, it started out very crafty, like Pinterest crafts was really big when Jackson was a baby and that's what I would do. So I started this like crafting blog, but then it turned into. me talking more about homeschooling and curriculum and, you know, just little ideas here and there. Um, the blog's name is super long, probably should have rebranded that at some point. Well, we'll put a,

we can put a link, you can say the name, but we can, if you send us the link, we'll

add

it to the show. Because you most of the time worked at home. Yeah. But I called it wait till your father gets home. But like he was there most of the time, so it wasn't like he was coming home from work. But in my mind, that That's where it came from because initially he was. It's working out of the house, but there is some stuff on there and it's, I mean, it's all applicable to today too. It's just, I haven't really written on it in a long time, but

it's there.

All right. All right. Well, listen, we are so grateful that we got to share some time with you guys and hear your side of the, the Bitcoin homeschooling experience. And looking forward to, um, many more conversations. There's a, there's a lot of things going on, so. Yeah. A lot of good things,

so. Yeah, thank you for having us on your platform and on your new show. I mean, it's, it's been, it's been a real treat. I've, uh, loved this conversation, this dynamic of having all four of us this time. Uh, and, um, yeah, many more conversations. Uh, please feel free to reach out anytime. Love it.

Alright, well, thank you guys and, uh, keep up the good work.

It was really nice meeting you, Meredith.

Thank you, you too.