G'Day everyone.

It's Coach Michelle J Raymond.

Welcome back for another episode of the podcast series where I'm having

friends on the show to talk about the things that I Really wanna get on

my soapbox and have a bit of a rant.

And Sarra Richmond, you are on my list.

You are number three out of the five people that I've picked, and you and

I had never actually spoken before.

This is how powerful your content is, my friend.

And I want my listeners to have the opportunity to learn from you so

that they can write content that practically doesn't put us to sleep.

Can you help us with that?

Absolutely.

Nice to be here.

Thank you.

Glad to hear I'm right in the middle.

You are Number three.

Middle child syndrome.

Not going there.

No.

Uh, so we've got bigger problems to solve on here, and we're gonna

start with one, which I've asked and answered a few times on the podcast

because I think it's really important.

We're gonna talk about what is affectionately termed the beige

problem the beige marketers, and that can be anyone that's

creating content on LinkedIn.

I think some of it comes up because in B2B, there's this

fear of not being professional.

So in your mind, what does beige look like?

How is it killing conversions on LinkedIn?

For me, beige is really simple.

It's place holding people talking about nothing.

People, Copying everybody else or regurgitating trends online or using AI in

the most basic possible way to place hold.

And it's very simple.

It's follow everybody else's lead, say nothing, but say a

lot of it, all of the time, and.

My experience has taught me, I, I've, I've marketed now I'm

gonna age myself very quickly.

I've been in marketing now for 30 years and specialising in

copywriting and client psychology.

And it's all about learning just to say something, anything that's

yours for your people and it is hurting conversions 'cause people

don't know what you're doing.

I have no idea what you do, how you do it, how you deliver it, and

why it's important to them, and that's why I'm very anti beige.

It's kind of funny when you think about it 'cause people are putting

a lot of effort into putting volume out and getting nowhere.

Correct.

That's the irony.

Right?

Yeah, it's, it's really interesting because one of the questions I ask

when I start working with people is, what are you hoping to achieve?

And if someone comes back to me and says, it's impressions, it's

conversions, it's this, it's that.

We're not gonna be a good fit because that's not the game.

Any kind of content or copywriting or LinkedIn posting is attention driving and

you have to have something to say, and in business it has to lead to something.

And sometimes that's offline.

You know, I've had a message tonight from a client I work with.

She's gone to an ultra high net worth individual event, and the CEO

of that event who turns over huge amount of money, has come up to her

and spoken to her about a LinkedIn post that I ghost wrote for her.

And then in the middle of a speech in front of 200 people called out

and quoted her, quoted out her post.

Now, did she get mega impressions online from that?

No.

Did she walk out of there with two ultra high net worth individuals as new clients?

Yes.

That's my kind of success and that's what I live for.

Yeah, I love it because that's what it's all about.

It's not posting for posting's sake, like I call it growth.

I'm here because my background is in B2B sales, so I have done 25 years of that.

I love selling.

I am driven by having the little dollar figure tick over for my clients.

Why not?

You and I are doing things exactly the same.

Different angles.

But the goal is the same because otherwise this thing's a time drainer.

We're not getting any closer to the goals for the business, whether

you're a consultant or at the other end of the scale, a a multinational

business or anywhere in between.

LinkedIn can be such a resource drainer if you don't get this stuff right.

And I get a little bit worried because when people come to me.

And they start quoting algorithm reports, and they can come from anywhere.

It's not any one individual report.

But when the goal is to try and understand the algorithm more

instead of their customers, yeah.

We start doing things for that.

I think that's where the beige creeps in, because

a hundred percent

we've lost track and doing it for the wrong reasons.

Albeit, I think with good intentions, I don't think

anyone sets out To go off track.

But that's kind of what happens on social.

We get nudged out the way by what our feed shows us.

Yeah, a hundred percent.

You can break it down to really simple building blocks.

And the core of the matter is to be as attractive as possible to your

ideal client in a way that you are the obvious choice and your product

solves their biggest problem.

You are solving something for somebody in the easiest way, and

that is what you're talking about.

And because we, a lot of people that inherently operate in that space

aren't professionals and haven't done that, we scrabble for information.

Everybody scrabbles for information and validation, and we need to

measure it against something.

So what do we do?

We look to the people that have the biggest numbers or are making the most

noise, and we think, well, we've gotta align with these people because They're

clearly succeeding, but Like anything in marketing that is smoke and mirrors

as well, because those people are paying for people like me to do it for them.

So I think my message from that, that sounds very wooly.

My message from that is to really understand what it is you want to do

and don't be thrown overboard about it.

Stick to it, keep going, keep churning through, and make sure that you are always

speaking clearly to that one person in the room you're trying to influence.

And it, it doesn't have to be polished, just real.

I am gonna agree with you and say, I would in fact say that if it's not

polished, it's gonna perform even better.

Yes.

Than all the additional waste of time that people put into things.

And now we've got this, you know, amazing tool called ChatGPT,

which will polish it to death

and fill it full of beige, weird language.

I know, right?

And you just end up going, I don't even know who this is,

but God, you all sound the same.

Like I've worked with a couple of clients and I look at

three different Company Pages.

I've looked at my clients plus the other two.

And if I'm someone with money in my B2B wallet that I'm looking to spend

with any of these three clients.

There is nothing that helps me choose between the three of them.

They all look the same.

They all sound the same.

They all post about the same stuff.

And they are writing for engagement and not revenue, but your

posts really hammer home that engagement doesn't equal dollars.

So let's talk about this right after a quick word from our

podcast sponsors, Metricool.

Why do you think so many marketers are still optimising

for likes instead of leads?

Is it because they're measuring the wrong thing?

How do we measure other things outside that maybe we can't

put our hands on Like brand?

I think, I mean everyone has their view and this is a view, it's not obviously

fact, but I think it's a bit of a failing into the influence culture and

that people are working towards being an influencer or content creator that

is very different To being a marketer.

A marketer is using clever words and clever influence in

psychology to shape a direction.

An influencer And I'm not gonna diminish anyone who is that, but their whole,

model is to be sponsored, to be visible.

They're very different things.

And so, you know, one of the things I break down when I work with clients or,

or advice I give to people is if you think about yourself as a person, and,

and I dunno if I'm answering your question 'cause I'm probably going off on one

here, but if you think about yourself as a person, the only person who truly

knows who you are is you and everybody else that you meet has almost an avatar

relationship with you because there's a version of yourself you show, right?

And when I work with people or I get them to start writing.

The person you should be writing as, or you should be putting out is the

version your client needs that's not a hundred percent authentic as you.

And that is a very big disconnect.

So you don't want to be the influencer that says, look, here's, here's a picture

of me sitting next to a croissant, come and spend 10,000 pounds on a consultation.

You're gonna get nothing from that.

But if I, if I'm gonna then write to you and say, Right, This is the

problem you're struggling with.

This is the thing I can help you with.

This is the clear way to do it, and here's credible proof you're gonna go.

Right.

Great.

And she doesn't sound like anyone else.

Oh, and she stands out and she's unique and memorable.

That's what's gonna get people knocking on the door wanting to work with you.

Does that answer your question?

I went off on a bit of a tangent.

Look, I think it's a good tangent to go off on, you know, because for

me personally, You actually made me stop and think about something.

'cause I often say to people, create your digital twin.

So how you show up online is how I would meet you face to face.

But something that you said made me think that, should I be just me all the time?

Or is there an element of me being who those people need?

Like is that faking it or is there a line there that I'm joining

two dots that aren't there?

Like, it's just an interesting 'cause it made me stop and think.

Am I just being me for the sake of me because it makes me feel good Or

am I being me for my clients, you know, a hundred percent of the time.

There's a whole thing to ghostwriting and copywriting.

There's so many layers to it that it's really hard to explain until

someone starts working with you.

But one of the key things that people miss, and this is where the beige

really creeps in, is awareness levels, is that we think that we are operating

with people that have exactly the same awareness levels, and I mean

about their own situation and what you are able to offer them for a start.

And then you're getting into styles of writing and styles of

putting information out there.

And I think, to pick up on your point, there is room for you to be a human

being and do things for your own ends.

You don't have to be, the pro.

But also there's a boundary.

It's like LinkedIn is, is there to be entertaining and fun, but in a

way that we're sticking to the M.O.

It is a transactional site.

It's not Instagram, for example.

It is there as you know, educational, informational, but it has room

for you to be a person too.

So, yeah, I think you can flip between the two.

Yeah.

Look, there was a specific question about.

Mistakes that you see around calls to action.

So at the, I don't know, would you say at the beginning or the end

of a post, does it matter where they are from your perspective?

In my mind they go at the end, but maybe that's not, where we're going with this,

but I'll ask you 'cause you're the expert.

There's a difference between calls to action.

That marketers can choose to use, and I think some of them

are confident calls to action.

And others seem a little bit desperate or trying to avoid being salesy.

Now I'm definitely on a mission to help people to not be.

Salesy because they freak out about that word.

But how can you help them?

What are some examples of killer call to actions that marketers could be trying?

I would probably be a bit more devious than even that because

I like to play with my posts.

So I use frameworks throughout all of my work.

And it doesn't look like it 'cause it's designed not to look like it.

But I would always start off with a real good, strong attention Grabbing hook.

And there's ways you can do that.

You can be contrarian, you could be rage baiting, you can do all sorts of things to

get someone in that first 150 characters.

But there's also one of my favourite things, I, I'll give you a couple of

examples and then answer your question.

So there's a couple of things you can do.

I like to do bread crumbing, and what I mean is I'll start, I get a hook and

then I'll start in the middle of a story.

And it's designed to throw you off because you'll be like, have I missed something?

And you've got someone in that moment, 'cause their brain is reaching to

the synapses, are reaching to try and make sense out of what you're doing.

And then you are loading up towards the call to action.

So you are switching a couple of levers over.

You're putting a bit of credibility in.

You're putting in a bit of humour.

You're putting in a bit of their real life situation.

So someone's reading something and go, this feels like me.

Oh my God, that's funny.

I didn't think about that.

You've caught them, you've got them in the dwell time.

Your call to action actually isn't the cleverest part of the post

that is just the full stop on the end that says Do something.

Gotcha.

Yeah, do something.

Because what will happen is if you don't do it, and most people don't,

is people get caught in themselves.

They go, I'm gonna sound like this.

You've got someone's attention, you've worked for it.

Tell them what you want them to do.

You're not saying you must do this, you're saying.

It makes sense to now do this and people will do it.

If you don't put it on there, they're not even gonna think about it.

They're just gonna go, oh, that was a cool post.

And then go and drop 5K on your competitor.

I've had that happen to me.

That's what they do.

That was a very early lesson.

I had somebody who I knew really loved my content, showed up, liking,

commenting, all this kind of stuff.

I watched them go and work with somebody else.

And I was shattered.

I was like, yeah, why did you pick them and not me?

We were relatively close.

So I was like, can I just understand this a little bit more?

And the simple answer was, I didn't know you did that.

And that was like the straight between the eyes.

Couldn't have been clearer in that moment.

And, you know, it was back in the early days when I'm still figuring this out.

And to be honest, I still have to keep reminding myself because you

get to the other end where you go, I've been doing this for five

years, I've got 27,000 followers.

I speak here, I've got books, I've got podcasts.

I do everything.

Everybody knows what Michelle J Raymond does?

Nope, they don't.

No.

Not when they meet you for the first time, or they stumble across you.

They've got no idea.

Exactly.

And so repeating that, and I, I did a poll once where I said to

people like, I've written two books.

And I said, do you know why I've written Business Gold?

And I've written The LinkedIn Branding Book.

Do you know both?

Or one or none?

And some friends of mine were like, Michelle, when did

you write your second book?

And I was like, what?

I was like, that's the second edition that just got launched.

Whoa, you know, and this For me, I'm someone that's so active and I can't get

people to remember my stuff, and obviously people on the other side are thinking.

How dare I send them to my website or ask them to book a call?

I'll drop a truth bomb here.

Okay?

So I'm X corporate.

I know used to write for a lot of, uh, famous and interesting

places that I can't talk about.

But when I started this profile again, 'cause when I left my corporate life,

I burnt my old one to the ground.

'cause I just don't want anything to do with it.

It wasn't, relevant for what I was going to be doing.

And the point I make is when you start, you start again.

People forget that You talk about something all the time because it's

your world and you think I've talked about this like eight times today.

Not to that person that's reading it for the first time.

You cannot say what you do enough.

And even on this profile that I'm on now, for the first six months, I was on

this profile as a professional writer.

I did not send a single DM because I hated it.

And I hated everything it stood for and I hated everything about it.

Now I live in my DMs, obviously, I'm just saying even people that do this all

the time fall into the same holes and the people that speak from experience

and are prepared to share vulnerability are the people that do the best because

we're like, I'm a human being too.

I put spelling mistakes in my posts.

I stuff things up.

I write things up and question myself.

I, I'll fall into a hole.

Someone will give me a bit of praise, and I'll argue against it

because I have my inner critic.

No one's perfect.

And that is exactly what people want to see because you, it comes

back to that awareness level stuff again of Relatability.

Can I trust you?

Do You sound like you understand me.

Are you relatable and safe?

And this is even more pertinent in B2B work than B2C because nobody else does it.

And that's why I was so successful in my previous life is that I

could just switch things on.

And it worked because I was emotionally intelligent and everyone was, oh, you've

gotta be professional, you've gotta be this, no, I just have to, I just have to

get someone to listen and pay attention.

And, and that is part of it is, I would call it rapport building.

So if I was an account manager going face-to-face in my sales roles, my job was

to get to know you as quick as possible.

Listen for something that I could help with or offer a product or service.

Ta-da.

Problem solved.

And that's how I approach LinkedIn as well.

But there was like something that's kind of come up for me recently with

a client, and again, I've gone through some of your post to pull out some

of the Cool juicy ones, which I can really help our listeners here today.

And we're gonna call it the one person content rule.

So, example, I have a client right now, and they have, let's

just say they have machinery.

And that machinery can go into all kinds of different industries and help them.

So when I talk to them and I say, let's write some content.

And we're doing this for your company page, and we're working on that strategy.

They're like.

Everyone's our client.

Everyone's a winner, and therefore, in my mind, no one's a winner.

So if we, as you would say, stop talking to the internet

and start talking to one person.

How does that play out in a B2B environment where they do have Multiple

personas, maybe across industries.

Yeah, I get that.

And that's something I come up against an awful lot.

So what we do is we say, well look Everyone drinks.

So why would you choose Pepsi over Oasis or or Water?

Why would you do any of these things?

Right?

And it's because everyone puts so much emphasis on that one point of contact.

If you are going to write a post or you are gonna do a theme, you don't

have to write everything that you can and will ever do to everyone you

can and will ever speak to In one instance, you overload your client

and they can't see themselves in it.

So how do we do that?

How do we strip it out?

Well, we go to one persona.

What is one problem that your product can fix for one person, and how does it do it?

Let's get onto a niche level.

Let's talk about it in a way that, okay, your machine might not be

unique, but what is the one thing that you do that nobody else is doing?

What we don't do is we don't chase the herd because they're five

years, 10 years ahead of you.

They have bigger revenue, they, whatever.

What we do is look at everything that they've missed, and

that is hyper nuancing.

So what are they not talking about?

What, are your clients talking about on Twitter or on Reddit where it's

anonymous and they can speak freely?

Let's go and have a look.

What are they struggling with?

What problems can you fix?

Right?

One post that solves one problem to one person, and that person will feel seen.

And then suddenly you are having to lock your door 'cause

everyone's trying to knock it down.

That's kind of what I mean by the one person post.

Yeah.

That's the dream.

The dream is to have those people coming to us and the danger is I

don't wanna look like I'm the brand or person That is out on my own when

we're taught to be part of the herd.

Being part of the herd was safe, so.

Therefore, if I go and do something that's different and not the same.

And I've seen it across so many different industries now.

It is never one company or one type of company and it is literally, I'm

working with a client right now where they can do Products across industries

and it's all amazing and their two main competitors do exactly the same thing.

You are the last one entering the market.

You can't try and compete with that.

No.

You just, it's a hiding to nowhere.

You are gonna come last in the race because you've got

the head start, like you said,

and it will cost you a lot of money.

Yeah.

And, and you don't have the tools, the resources or whatever, to

try and play catchups like that.

So.

How about we try and be different, which is scary for marketers.

Of course it is.

Yeah.

I'll acknowledge it.

It is scary, but I think it's scarier to do all of this effort and not get

any results because you're so beige.

Yeah.

But that's also to the right marketer there That's fun.

'cause a genuine marketer is a people person is a problem solver is a bit

of a maverick, is a proper creative.

They like to just turn over a stone and everyone's going in that direction and you

go, what happens if I press this button?

Oh, well, let's try something else.

And there, you know, adapt and that's what your audience wants.

You don't do it for the sake of it.

It's like if you walked into a bar and there was a, a

whole smorgasbord of people.

But there was someone there who's a goth punk, for example.

Your, your eye is going to be drawn at that person and you're gonna be, God.

You are unique, you are very secure in yourself.

You're quite bold.

You're interesting, out of everybody here.

You stood out and I want to understand your story.

You wanna be that person.

You are just very secure in yourself and you don't have to project because you know

you can deliver on what you are saying.

And that is what it's.

It's like, how can I put this?

Everything that I do is on attraction basis.

Even on LinkedIn.

I attract through my words.

My DM or my outreach is very disruptive.

It's not pitch slapping, it's dropping a random question and bread crumbing and

intriguing you to come and talk to me, and that's what I do with my clients.

That work that works so much more than banging on the door and

begging someone for attention.

It's our human psychology.

We want to chase what we can't have.

Yeah.

And as Lil always tells me, Michelle, they can smell the desperation.

They can.

And no one wants to be that person.

And I think it's kind of an interesting time because I think

it's often easy for us to sit here on the podcast while we're chatting

and we know what we should be doing.

Yeah.

In corporate land, there's a lot of these great marketers that you were just

talking about that do have those ideas.

And they're amazing and they've got creative and they

wanna do this and do this.

And then brand guidelines or social guidelines or the CEO or

everyone's got their input into it.

Come up against that and slowly but surely the box gets smaller.

The creativity goes out the window.

And we end up back at bland and beige and boring and ineffective ultimately.

And so, to the marketers that are listening, as I've said before, this

is not about You know, having a go at you per se, for not wanting to

do these things, 'cause I know that that tug of war is absolutely real.

But I'm hoping that there are some CEOs, some marketing managers, some people that

are responsible for marketing decisions that might listen to this podcast and

really see this as the opportunity To support those people to make these big,

bold, creative decisions because it is just gonna be What your brand needs As

the words AI slop seems to be everywhere.

Like it, it seemed to be the word of, the word of the weak, uh, AI slop.

You know, like, we don't wanna be that, we don't want our listeners to be like that.

But as, as we come round to the end, I've got one last question.

And I wanted to give you the opportunity to share one uncomfortable

truth for B2B marketers that you think that they need to hear today.

And That is if they actually want their content to convert.

What would you like to drop on this one?

I think the number one thing for that, and the people don't pay enough

attention to is we've never had a time like we have at the moment when you

are in your client's pockets Through LinkedIn and any social media and email

sales, we are in our client's Pockets.

And the number one thing people miss is they don't talk to their clients.

They don't ask enough questions, they don't put enough accessibility out there.

We've got the most powerful outreach we've ever had.

You don't play with it.

You don't engage your clients.

You don't involve them in what you are doing.

And the brands that are succeeding and the huge business brands that

are succeeding on, the people that are doing that, who are asking their

clients what they want, are playing with them, are having some fun with

them, are in a way that they understand.

And they're building loyalty in a way that is hugely anti AI.

AI can't do that.

Human beings can, and that's the connection, that's the loyalty.

That's the one thing I would say is make the most of that.

I think that is all about dropping the focus, being on your brand and

shifting things around and changing your perspective and looking at what

can you create today that is really gonna help someone else on the other

side get closer to their goals and make those confident buying decisions,

because that's the aim of the game.

Not to say how amazing your own company is like,

correct.

We can all do that.

You know, like that's what websites are for, right?

My company is, is the most amazing.

Your company is the most amazing.

We're all amazing.

No one says anything negative anywhere.

And then you get on a call and then it's like, ooh,

yeah, and, and then you end up like just that misalignment that comes when you're

trying to be something that you're not, and people, you attract the wrong clients,

which is never fun to work with If you end up going down that path, and I don't care.

Again, size or shape or type of company.

It happens everywhere.

But, Sarra this conversation has been everything that I wished it would be.

And of course I'm gonna put all of your details in the show notes, so I

would encourage all of my listeners to go and connect with you the ghost of a

LinkedIn so that they can Really see this in action because you walk this talk.

Mm-hmm.

This isn't just something that you've come up with some

great answers for the podcast.

People can go and see all the things you've spoken about in action on the

platform, and I thoroughly enjoy it.

It's a little bit of, makes me laugh, a little bit of contrarian, a little

bit of Yes I want you to call that out.

It's a little bit of everything and I really love it.

I've shared this with you before and don't push back on my compliment.

You're not allowed to do that.

Okay.

You have to.

I'll take it.

Take this one.

I'll take it.

Thank you.

On that note.

I appreciate your time and listeners.

Until next week, cheers.