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This was a great question from a
recent Unstuck Academy q and a,

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asking about ventral bagel safety
activation, and enforcing boundaries.

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I wanted to share with you, and I'm
really curious what you think about it.

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Hey, I'm Justin since I'm a therapist
and coach who helps you live more

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calmly, confidently and connected
without psychobabble or woo woo.

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Welcome to Stuck Not Broken.

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This is of course not therapy and,
uh, is not meant to replace therapy.

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Oh, and I removed as much of the students'
audio as I could, and I replaced it

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with, uh, AI versions of their voices.

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Can you discuss the importance
of the ventral vagal safety

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state in setting boundaries?

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It seems there is a balance between safety
but also flight and fight sympathetic?

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Okay.

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Boundaries with ventral vagal activation.

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You're dead on with that.

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When we enforce a boundary, there
is some flight fight activation.

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I would lean more toward
the fight activation.

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Not angry, not lashing
out, not name calling.

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That, I mean, yeah, that's,
it's a boundary I suppose.

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But that would be, uh, without or
with less ventral, vagal activation.

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And so ideally we wanna have
as much grounding as much

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anchoring and safety as we can.

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I, I think it's totally okay
for boundaries to come across as

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strong, like a very clear, no.

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A very strong, no.

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Maybe even a raised voice, no if needed.

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Some people situationally might need that.

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So, but you, you could do that from
a, a, a strong anchoring in your

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ventral vagal state- safety state.

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Right.

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So ideally what kind of needs to
happen is that we feel that activation.

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In, in the moment, we feel that
spike of whatever, it's, there's a

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surge of wanting to get outta here.

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And now it changed into some irritation
that I, this person's not picking up

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on my cues and they're stamping all-
trampling all over my, uh, whatever my

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boundary or my values or what, whatever.

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So, probably once we get more to
that, like fight activation, that's

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where we would say, uh, put in some
sort of like, I'm not okay with that.

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Or flight activation could be, I hear you.

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I don't need to be a part of this.

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I'm gonna leave now.

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So, but that does require that we, we feel
and embrace it rather than f- feeling it

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unconsciously and then reacting to it.

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So we really have to have this like net to
capture, metaphorically, to capture that

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activation and inward, and it's hard in
the moment, but in the moment we would say

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to ourselves something like, it's there.

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I have every right to feel this way,
and I can, I can come from compassion.

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That can come from assuming this
person doesn't know any better maybe.

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But all that takes a strong
anchoring and safety state.

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So ideally, when we're
in these situations.

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We would have familiarity with what
the defensive activation feels like

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in the first place, so that when
it's there, it's not overwhelming.

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Ideally, when we're in these situations,
we'd already have a pretty good

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amount of safety in our system because
we've practiced feeling safety and so

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having the right balance, those two
things can equal noticing it, acting

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on it, and forcing a boundary and
following through with it as well.

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Okay, so I don't think there's
like, here's the answer to setting

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a boundary in the moment when you're
feeling it and you didn't expect it.

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Like that's the hardest.

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It's really comes, always, comes
down to proactively practicing

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these things ahead of time.

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And I think that means proactively
practicing safety, but also

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proactively remembering, feeling
into mentally rehearsing defense.

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One of those options.

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So if, if one knows that I typically
feel freeze when I'm in any social

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situation, but maybe one that's more,
um, uh, not triggering challenging.

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I, I know I typically feel this way in
social situations, so when I'm not in

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that situation, lemme practice safety
and then feel into my freeze activation

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that I know is gonna happen anyway.

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So let's just kind of feel into it.

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Um, that's.

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That's a generally approachable way,
as long as you have enough safety.

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But you can also say, I,
I know I feel this often.

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I felt in the past, I'm gonna
feel it again in the future.

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So let me anchor into safety
and then remember what it feels

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like to be in that situation.

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Maybe even remember a specific
incident, let it be there.

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And then pendulate it with safety.

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And that's all stage three stuff.

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And a third option, which is very
challenging, is the option of, I

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know I'm gonna feel this anyway.

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Let me imagine a scenario where I feel
this, and then do the pendulation.

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So all those act as, um, buffers
or inno, what's the word?

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Inoculator.

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Inoculations to a real life
scenario in the future.

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So, in relationships where a
boundary is needed, then the

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safety state is important to stay
connected and enforce the boundary.

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Mm-hmm.

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Yes.

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So the ventral part piece of
it, it could look like that.

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Behavioral wise- that's
what it could look like.

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Internally, the ventral
activation could show up as a deep

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compassion for the person and.

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You smile and you say,
look, you sound ridiculous.

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I love you, but no, I
can't go there with you.

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You know that that would be a really,
you know, soft way to approach it.

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Lots of compassion.

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It's not easy to do, uh, but ventral
could also be a connection with yourself.

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Let's, let's stick with the other person.

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It could be a connection with
the other person where you do say

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like, look, this is inappropriate.

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I care about you.

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I know you have the best intentions,
but I think you're way off base and

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I, I can't go down this path with you.

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That's a little more firmer,
but it still comes from enough

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ventral activation to remember
like, I do care about this person.

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And, um, I also, and this is where the.

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I think it's a more interesting piece of
it, which is the connection with yourself.

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And I think that takes a lot
of ventral activation too.

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So ventral the safety activation is
connection with others, self, environment.

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So part of the puzzle here is
like, no, I connected to myself.

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I know what I feel.

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I feel it.

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I feel that activation.

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It makes sense, it's why it's
there and I can let it be there.

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And um, I'm also connected to my values,
the one I believe, or what I know or what

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I like- I'm connected to that, to that.

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And I'm also connected to a, a
value of mine, which is I can't

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compromise, um, certain things.

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Like it's just more
morally I can't do that.

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And so all that is a
very strong foundation.

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I think that comes from ventral,
but also probably some fight, fight

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activation too 'cause there's,
there's empowerment there, right?

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So behaviorally that could come
across more compassionately and soft.

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It might come across a little
more toward the firm no.

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You know, but once we're lashing out
and name calling and stuff, that would

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be behaviorally more probably suggest
there's less ventral activation.

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It seems like if I am telling the story
through my fight lens, I would probably

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have expectations that the other person
is going to come back at me in some way.

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Challenge me.

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But in ventral, you don't read the
future through a distorted lens.

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Well, yeah, that, that's the
tricky part of the distorted lens

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because when we're in sympathetic,
we know this is gonna happen.

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Mm-hmm.

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They are gonna say this, and
they're a jerk, you know, but when

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we have enough ventral activation,
we can still see the future, quote

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unquote, see the future in quotes.

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Like, I, this is going to happen.

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This person, I know this person, and
they're realistically going to lash out.

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Like that's, we've spent enough time
with someone where we know, and dammit,

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I can't do this anymore and I'm gonna
embrace the fact that they're gonna

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do this and I'm gonna hold my ground
and if they cross a certain boundary,

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then I'm gonna leave or whatever.

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Uh, but that's telling
the future in a sense.

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But it's also very much grounded in
reality versus flight, fight, freeze,

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shutdown telling the future, which
is more fear driven; defense, more

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dysregulated, driven thought and like
in the moment, that is really hard

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to parse out and maybe unrealistic.

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So ahead of time, that might
be the best time to know what's

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gonna happen realistically.

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Then anchoring into the safety
state enables a kind of,

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"to thine own self be true."

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Yeah, I, I think that the,
actually the, the piece that

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you brought up, the knowing.

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Actual knowing.

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Not the dysregulated assuming, but like,
I know, I know what's gonna happen.

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I know this person, I know their behavior
and I know how they're likely to react

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and damn it, here I am, I, I am firmly
aware of how I feel and what I know

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to be true or morally what I will or
will not do, and I don't control them.

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I think that's, that's actually a
big part of, is knowing I, I don't

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control them, but I realistically
know how they're gonna react.

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But I, I. I have no choice but to live up
to what I know is right or wrong maybe, or

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what, uh, line I will or will not cross.

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And that's, I'm firmly planted like a, a
tree deeply rooted in the ground in this.

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That's different than stubbornness too.

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There's a lot of like parsing, but that's,
I'm not talking about stubbornness.

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I'm talking about like value driven,
principles, morality, like, I just

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can't do this thing that they're
asking me to, or however it shows up.

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And then letting the chips fall
where they may because you're

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solidly rooted within yourself.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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knowing that I don't control them,
they're likely gonna do whatever it

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is, and the, the results, if they enact
that are potentially disastrous for

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them or people around them that there
might be some level of I, whatever

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happens, happens, I, I can't control it.

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I'll do the best I can.

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I'll, you know, look out for those.

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I love, depending on the situation,
I'll look out for myself, but

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this outcome is outta my control.

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And if, if they are going to
make disastrous decisions,

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I, I just can't control that.

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Thanks so much for joining
me on Stuck Not Broken.

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I hope you learned a bit about
the importance of your safety

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state and creating or enforcing
boundaries with those who need it.

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No, it's not easy.

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Some relationships are easier to
hold the boundary with than others.

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Ultimately, I think it comes down to a
strong enough connection within yourself,

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the ability to feel your sympathetic
states and to turn it into empowerment.

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And also understanding that the
other person is gonna make their own

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choices and they need to live with
the consequences of those choices.

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And that you don't control the outcome
of those choices, or at least, uh, you

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maybe should not try to impose your
control on the outcome of their choices.

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But, uh, what do you think?

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If you're interested in joining me in
a future live q and a, I would love

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to see you in the Unstucking Academy.

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Not only are there q and As and
other live events to answer your

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questions, but there's also clear
coursework that's grounded in the

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Polyvagal Theory primary sources.

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You'll also join a private community
that's limited to 150 students, and

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these are people that are just like
you, so you're not gonna be alone.

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You can learn more through
the link in the description.

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I hope to see you within
the Unstucking Academy.