I had to go through that. I had to go through I had

to face that part of me that was wanting the world to tell me

that my story mattered, rather than trusting that it did and

and also that I had to face that part of me that had been really

conditioned to write to what the market wanted, because I was,

had been a freelance writer and made my living as a writer, and

so you're the attunement was always to the market. I had to

heal that part of me. So it was like it was the same dismantling

of a structure of my sexuality that I had to dismantle as a

structure as a writer.

Hello, Beauty. I am so excited for you to hear this

week's really incredibly important, powerful episode with

a amazing woman, Gail Hudson, Feminine Empowerment writing

coach and book author whose career was built on personal

narratives, storytelling and the power of the voice to make a

difference in the world. And has she ever made a difference in

the world? She co authored multiple New York Times

bestselling books with a legend of a woman, an unscripted woman

who is way ahead of her time, Jane Goodall, if you know of

her, if you don't look her up, Jane Goodall is absolutely an

extraordinary human and so is her dear friend, Gail. So this

is such a beautiful, powerful conversation, all about dreaming

and purpose. Gail also weaves in the power of writing and using

writing as a tool in your growth, whether you identify as

a writer or not. Her story is incredibly powerful. She also

weaves in a lot of Jane's story, which is so so special. It

almost feels like Jane was here too with us, as Jane is now on

the other side. She passed away last year, but Jane and yeah,

Gail, work so closely together, and this conversation is so

important because both of them are unscripted women. Both of

them are ahead of their time, both of them doing really

important work in the world. So may this episode spark you and

inspire you to step up this year in ways you couldn't fathom. As

always, share it with every woman you know who would benefit

from listening and enjoy the episode.

Hello, beautiful. Welcome to the new truth podcast. I am so

excited to have this conversation today with my new

friend Gail Hudson, hi, Gail, Hello. Happy to have you here on

the new truth and a shout out to Jennifer Jade for Jade is it's a

it's an inside name, I'll explain later. But Jennifer Jade

for connecting us and bringing us together for this powerful

conversation. And I just the first time we spoke, I felt so

connected to you. It was such a magical conversation,

immediate and thank you so much for inviting me on.

I'm really happy to be here, and I'm excited for this

conversation.

Me too. Me too. I think you know, it's such an

important time for this conversation, because I believe

it's because of a, you know, what we're going through

astrologically, and just how, how many big changes are

happening in the planet. But that shift from, do you? Do you

follow astrology

a little bit, you know, like, I get funny little

emails here and there, and mostly stuff about the moon,

actually, not so much astrology, yes, but yeah.

Well, we've shifted into the Aquarian Age, which

you've probably heard. There was that song from the 70s, Age of

Aquarian So, yeah, oh, we're in your age now. Well, there you

go. Here we are. And I just think, like the Aquarian Age is

like all the old ways of being. They're no longer working.

People have shifted. We've shifted out of Capricorn energy,

which is so you know, just the corporate world and structures

and systems that used to work that that are no longer working.

And we're seeing a lot of them being challenged in really big

ways. And in my work, in one on one coaching, I'm having almost

every woman I've worked with in the last year, pretty much since

it shifted a year and a half ago. Or I guess was it a year

ago, I think it was November last year. Almost every woman is

ready to quit her job. Wants deeper meaning, wants a deeper

purpose, and the last couple episodes have really been around

that. And I really feel like fully living our dreams in this

lifetime is something that so many women only dream of and

don't actually step into and claim and do. So, yeah, I think

this conversation is so poignant and important right now.

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, we weren't taught

how to do that, and so we're all pioneers right now in this,

yeah,

yeah, exactly, exactly, so that. So I'd love to

hear from you a little bit of your story in terms of your

dreams and getting into the industry. So you are, you are an

author. You are a writing teacher, a writing coach, an

editor. Editor, do you have other titles that you refer to?

I also do some life coaching, which often dovetails

with exactly what you're talking about. You know,

of course, yeah, yeah, of course. Because when,

when, when people are writing? I mean, I'm writing a book right

now. It's vulnerable, and so much stuff comes up,

so much and so that actually, in my work as a

writing coach, there's so much overlap with the life coaching,

because most people are really called right now to write from

personal experience, even within fiction, I'm seeing that a lot

like drawing upon one's life, and so a lot comes up, um, a lot

of fear comes up. A lot of like, Can I do this comes up. So the

life's coaching skills come in really handy when I'm doing the

writing coaching. But that said, I also work with a lot of women

who are, I mean, just yesterday, I was having a conversation with

a woman like you know, when are you going to take time for this

sacred self that's trying to emerge, rather than all the

things you were taught to take care of in your life?

Yeah, beautiful. I love that your sacred Self is

Trying to emerge. So actually, before we get to you and your

story, I'm curious if you do. You believe that every okay,

we're speaking to women. So I won't say human, but every woman

has a book in her.

I think every woman has a story that's not been

fully told in her and so, but you know, until they maybe

sometimes write the book or they actually share the story. But

most everyone that I've worked with comes with something that's

not been allowed to be said, or at least that's their belief,

yes, yeah, yeah, and there's something they're

sitting around because I just see writing, even in the work

I've done with women over the years, how once we, once they

break through the bullshit story that I'm not a writer, right?

I'm not a singer, I'm not a dancer, and we are all create

creatives. Once they move through that, I just see how

healing writing can be.

It's so healing, and I this is actually the thing

that I love the most about writing is not going in with

your agenda, but going in with the exploration of what's trying

to come through like I just, I feel like the most beautiful

writing comes when we are when We're willing to go towards

those vulnerable places, but also to be surprised and to be

listening really deeply to oneself. And those are all

things that, again, we haven't really been taught. No one gets

taught that, and in high school writing, Oh, listen, you should

go in and listen deeply to yourself and trust what's

emerging and follow it, because that's what's trying to come

through, and that's what the world really wants, is these

deeper, the deeper knowing, the deeper understanding and the

truth of the human experience. But, but you know, you know,

when you read something from the great authors, they're all

talking about the truth of the human experience. They've all

laid something, a story that is profoundly personal and yet

deeply touching and universal.

You know, I had goosebumps. Yeah, exactly. And

of course, we all have those stories. And, you know, I just

think how much the school system actually confuses us about who

we are. Because what I hear you speaking of is what I would call

that like expression of the soul, or or, or coming, you

know, coming from that channel, divine place that we all have

access to, but because we were all shut down for it in school

and marked and measured and told, you know, it's got to fit

into this structure. It's not good. Everyone just has so much

trauma around the topic that that so many people just don't

even go there. Even journaling. There's so much resistance, even

if nobody's ever going to read their journals. Well, I guess

when you die, people read your journals. But people women find

that so vulnerable, even just journaling,

true that, in fact, I have so many boxes of

journals, and I'm actually thinking, I don't really, really

want them to be left when I die. So I'm like, What do I want to,

really want to do with them? But yeah, we're not, we're not

encouraged, as women and as writers to really tap into what

makes a beautiful piece of writing and what makes a

meaningful, inspirational journey, either as a writer,

yeah,

yeah, exactly. So, how did you start, like, were

you always identified as a writer? Is this where you

started, or what? What was your relationship to it? And how did

you start? Step into living your dreams like, what? What can you

tell us a bit of your story? Sure.

Yeah. So I was, I was a highly creative child, but

not a very academic student. I struggled with the rigidity of

the public school system, and so the word being a writer was

like, you know, I had to be like, I don't know. I thought it

was Professor Lee, you know, like, or this hugely esteemed

highbrow thing. And I never thought of myself that way. But

I kept getting it reflected back to me, because I had such ease

in writing for some reason, you know, we just get, we get born

with different things that try to guide us to what our path is.

And I, I always had this ability to meet the page with a

confident voice like my true voice now, oh, you know, I can

qualify that later, but I was relaxed as a writer when I was

given the opportunity to be and so more and more I just would

get this reflected back to me, reflected back to me through

high school, when I got freedom to write creatively, it was

really easy. Go to college. I think I'm going to study

political science. I'm and I'm also really interested in

sustainable living. I end up in San Francisco an internship in

college to actually I was supposed to do solar design and

study the solar industry, and I went to my internship location.

I got there, and it was closed. There was no, and, you know,

this was in the 80s, like there was no, like, looking them up

and the, you know, I mean, it was just, it was horrible,

because I just taken this plane ride, I just gotten this

roommate situation, and I didn't know what I was going to do. And

I I was on a public bus and telling someone about this, and

they said, You know what? I know of an internship you could do if

you want to pivot. There's these women in the San Francisco jail

who really need humanitarian public defender support. And I

just thought, Wow, that sounds interesting. And long story

short, I got the internship, I started working with these

women, and they had these amazing stories, and I was so

touched by them that I said, Is it okay if I write them down for

you? And so I would write them down like a little reporter, you

know, I'd sit there and I just handwrite them as they talk to

me, and I go home, and I type them up on my little portable

typewriter, and I bring them back to them, and they're,

they're like, I'm gonna start to cry. It was so profound for them

to see their stories reflected back, because, you know, here

they were in this situation that was supposedly, you know, as low

as you could get, complete failure. And what I showed them

is like, No, you know. You are strong. You are a heroine. You

are a you know you you did welfare fraud because you had to

take care of your children. You put your life on the edge, you

know you you went into sex working, because that was the

only way that you could survive. And it's not because you were

bad, it's because you didn't get the right chances. And so they

started to see that, not only were they caught in systems that

were oppressive and narrowed them into tough choices, but

that they actually had agency, and that they were that they

were the heroines of their stories, and that they could

Shape different stories. And so we went on to create a

newsletter that we that got put through the California State

system where other women could share their stories. And one of

my co workers led this. It was called Rose in a cage.

And wow, oh my gosh, I've just had waves and

waves and waves of Goosebumps. This is so amazing.

It was such a profound experience. And I felt

like it was just divine guidance. Because once I did

that, I thought I I think this is what is called journalism,

where you like talk to people and they tell you their stories,

and then you reflect them back to the world. And so by the time

I graduated from college, I'd never taken a writing course,

but I knew I wanted to be a journalist, and that's where it

all began.

Yeah, oh my gosh, Gail, that is absolutely

extraordinary. Were you able to stay in touch with any of them?

No, I was. I was actually based in Vermont. It.

And they were in all in San Francisco. And so when I went

back to college, it was staying in touch was not a thing. People

didn't have cell phones, right?

Yeah, right. You just, like, met people and then

said goodbye, we'll see.

Yeah, you know. And they were all in prison and I

was in transit, you know, there just wasn't, like, a lot of

opportunity for follow through.

Yeah, but I bet they've told that. I bet so many

of them have told that story so many times. And, you know, I

just think, God, wouldn't it be cool if you could go back and

see the impact that them being seen, probably for the first

time, and just how instantly, when people think of prison,

it's just mostly we think, Oh, those are bad people. And it's

like, what? What a crazy system that they're just completely

everyone who's in prison was deeply traumatized as a child,

for sure, and, you know, has been through such a hard life

and and how then they just get ostracized and completely shut

out that. I mean, what a profound start, wow. And the

angel on the bus that redirected you, and that this is purpose,

this, to me, is purpose. It's like, you know, so many people

are trying to find their purpose, and I certainly tried

that at the beginning, like, what is it? What am I good at?

What am I what could I do? And it was coming from fear, and it

was like constantly searching for this thing. And it wasn't

until I just, you know, started living a life that felt aligned,

and making choices that felt good, and taking that divine

guidance, like life leads us, that's you were directed there,

like how divine a stranger on a bus.

I can't tell you how many times I'm talking with

a client, and they'll they'll say, let me give you an example.

Someone was saying, I want to change my identity to be more of

a consultant rather than an employee, you know. And we had a

long conversation about that, what that would look like. And

then, you know, literally, the next day, they get a they're in

a conversation with a friend they haven't heard from in two

years. He calls her out of the blue. They're having a

conversation. He said, out of nowhere. You know, I've always

thought of you as a consultant, like, why did he call her that

next day? Wide out of the blue. Did that come it's because we're

always given this. We're always giving these, these signals. I

mean, this just happened this week, but this happens time and

time and time

again, constantly, constantly, oh my gosh. And I

know your story has so many of those. Okay, keep going, and

then what?

Well, yeah. So after that, I just started to,

well, I did two things. I started working with women in

Vermont who were institutionalized because they

were pregnant and weren't married. So there was still,

like the homes for unwed mothers at that time, unbelievable, but

true.

Oh, my God. I didn't know that was a thing. If

you were pregnant and not married, you were

institutionalized, like in a well, you could be,

you could be, unless your parents, you know,

unless you were, you know, a woman who was self sufficient.

But I'm talking about mostly teenage girls up to about 19

some 20s, but mostly, you know, 13 to 20 and parents, it was so

stigmatized that they would be sent away to these Catholic this

cat, this was a Catholic institution, kind of women's

home. They called it. And yeah, so by the time I got there,

there probably really, there really weren't women. That

probably the legacy was probably that there were many women who

were went and hid there, and then they would give their

babies up for adoption. And so I ended up working as a counselor

there. I really saw the parallels, you know, in my work.

And so while I was doing that, I started freelancing for the

local Alternative Press, and time went by, and eventually got

employed there, and then eventually became the editor

there, and and did a really long career in journalism, both as an

editor, but also once I had children. I had started having

babies, I decided that I wanted to go freelance and not be tied

to having to go to a workplace every day. So where am I going?

I had a long freelance career in the 90s and early 2000s where I

was writing for magazines and then eventually decided I wanted

to get into book writing, and wrote my first book on

children's conflict resolution because I was immersed in

motherhood and children's issues then and then, not long after

that, I started working on memoir and person more personal

and. Narrative, and around that time I met Jane Goodall, and

that's the the next chapter that we'll probably talk about a

little bit, yeah, but I'm gonna take a

sip of tea. Yeah, yeah, sip your tea. So, I mean,

gosh, okay, so let before we get to Jane and that chapter, and I

just love this is so perfect, because it's just, it's, it's

your soul's path and how you're because you listen to the

messages and how life just led you exactly where you were meant

to be. So the the young or the girl's pregnancy home, when you

say you were a writer for them, did they have, like the

organization had newsletters or I don't quite, I don't quite

understand.

I went. That was my first job out of college, and I

wasn't a writer there. I was, I was a counselor there. Okay,

yes, yes. So I got, I got hired out of college because it's my

experience of working with women and prison I and I ended up

writing a senior thesis about women in previous prison, etc.

And so anyway, they, they hired me based on some of my

experience working with women who were in hard situations, and

I'm at the time I was also at night, you know, or when I was

not working my shifts at the Women's home. I was typing away

on my little kitchen table, writing articles for freelance

to kind of somehow break into the field.

Yeah, got it. And so I can see how both of these

weave together in terms of your first book about parenting and

having the all this experience of deeper emotional support for

women in prison and women in these compromised positions, and

then becoming a mom, and the gift of those two worlds

merging. Yeah, would you? Would you Yeah, for sure that they're

tied together. I think

that I got really, a really powerful lesson in

women's empowerment. And I got, you know, going back to that

time at the San Francisco city county jail that I started to

understand that pretty quickly, that there were things systems

in place that were not really honoring what I would now call

the divine feminine. At the time, I just thought, you know

women or females in general, and so all along in my early writing

career, I was often writing about the freedom to choose

whether you want to have a child or not, and protecting that

choice. And I I was really glad that the women that I girls that

I worked with, were able to have their babies put up for adoption

if that's what they wanted, but that's not always what they

wanted. That's what they were pushed into. And that really

made me sad. You know that our culture didn't support them

when, you know, or their choice, their choices were being made

for them. And so when I became a mom, you know, it was a choice,

and it was a great choice, and I was really and I was really

happy that I could make it, but that was always a really

powerful part of my writing and my reporting, ongoing, really,

yeah, yeah, yeah, amazing. And how many kids you

have? I have two.

How old are they now? They're both in their 30s.

I have a son and a daughter.

Yeah, yeah, beautiful. So what was it like

writing your first book. So you obviously were already connected

to writing, from doing journalism and articles and all

of that. So what, what was it like shifting gears into writing

a book? Was that? Was it challenging? Was it

Yeah, I really didn't know what I was doing.

This does not happen very often, but what happened to me is that

the then editor of child magazine came to me and said,

Listen, we'd like you to write a book. We're wanting to do a book

series, and we want you to do the book on children's conflict

resolution. And so I was handed the book project, I was handed a

publisher, I was handed in advance, and I was handed an

editor to help me. And so it was. It was exciting. It was out

of my wheelhouse. I didn't really know what I was doing. I

way over researched it. I like, I mean, I, I guess I just did

what every rookie does, you know, like, I spent way more

time researching before I actually sat down to write. And

then when I finally sat down to write, I had way more than I

should have, and I wrote way too long, and I had, they had to

pair me back. And. Stuff. But, yeah, it was, it was great

because it gave me this confidence, like, okay, I can do

this, you know, like, I, you know, when you do something and

you, you practice it, once you kind of any actually succeed.

You just, you have the belief that it can happen for you. And

again, this doesn't happen to other people, but the Today Show

picked up on these books that they were they were producing,

and so I ended up going on the Today Show with Katie Couric.

And at the time, I was thinking, Is this my, you know, what is

that like, 30 seconds of fame, or whatever? I don't know.

I mean, I think you magical path, and it's like,

this is exactly it. It's like it happens for for those that are

meant. I feel like so many people are trying to, well, kind

of like what I said earlier, like find purpose, but it's like

they're trying to control where their career is going, or life,

or marriage, or whatever. It's like we're trying to control it,

rather than allowing life to to guide us to it. And because this

was your soul's path, that's why you've had so many beauty I

mean, God already, and you're not even at the the Jane part

like your stories, I didn't even know any of these parts of your

story from our last conversation. And how magical

and diverse has your experience been and your journey been, and

how beautiful that your first book, and you get a publishing

deal before even writing it, and then get to go on, you know, the

Today Show. And I mean, gosh, it's, it's amazing, and that's,

that's soul alignment, in my opinion.

I agree, and I you know, the other interesting

thing about all this is that when I reflect back on my life

and the the opportunities that have really been life changing

and really aligned with my deep soul purpose. They all came to

me. I didn't chase them down. So I stood in desire and I stood in

a dream, but I and I did put effort. I mean, I did try to

chase it's not like I didn't try, but everything actually

just came to me. So all my efforting sometimes just didn't

go far. But I think that the efforting was somehow my own

reflection back to myself that I was committed, you know, and so

anyway. But everything has come like everything has come.

Yes, this is sole purpose. This is living your

dreams like they it comes like the word dream, even like dreams

come to us. We don't effort. I mean, you can try. I'm sure

there's people who get trained and trying to control their

dream, or lucid dreams, but like our dream, our dreams in the

night, you know, we can't we don't control them. They just

come. And so it's kind of similar living your dreams. It's

like, are you really listening to your heart? Are you really

saying yes to the invitations the guy on the bus, or are you

ignoring the guy on the bus and not even giving him the time of

day and then completely closing that door and closing that like

that. I think that's what so many women do, is they're,

they're so busy trying to control things that they close

the doors that are actually the doors that they're meant to walk

or like fear takes them out, so they close the door. Oh, I'm not

a writer. I'm gonna, even though this book keeps tapping on my

shoulder, I keep getting invitations to write, well, oh,

I'm gonna close the door. The podcast. I had so many

invitations to do this podcast. People just kept saying, You

need a podcast. You need a podcast based on seeing my work

in other formats, like in live talks and whatnot. And had I

just let fear be like, Oh no, that's not for me. I don't know

what that is, or I'm not good at technology, like, had I just

believed one of those stories and closed the door, we wouldn't

be here. And I think of all the Gosh, all the women I've worked

with over the years, and all the hundreds of 1000s of women

who've heard this podcast like it's crazy to think that, and

yet so many women are closing those doors every day. Yeah?

There's like that, that moment where there's an

inspiration or desire, and then all that stuff that can come in

to close the door, right?

Yeah, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so what? And so

when you have that stuff come up, do you have, like, if you or

even when you're working with clients, and we'll come back to

your story, of course, but when you're working with women, and

they have all their stories arise and all the fear arise to

try and shut the door, how do you help them, or how do you

guide them to to keep going?

Yeah, there's every, every client is

different, but there, there is one kind of universal thing that

I want to speak to, and that that is i. Um, when we go to

write and sit down at the page, I will say that almost always,

there is a moment of resistance or even terror that comes up and

um, and I have it too. I am a lifelong apprentice to this

mysterious thing and craft of writing, and I have learned that

every time I'm going to have resistance, I mean, maybe once

in a while, I just scurry to the page because I have to write

something down. So yes, okay, that happens sometimes, but

that's not really the practice of writing. The practice of

writing is showing up and recognizing that you're going to

think nobody wants to read this. Why would anybody care? It's not

going to get published. I'm not good enough. I mean, like this.

This happens to every writer, every writer I've every writer

I've ever studied with, has all spoken about this. And so we are

not alone in this belief that we can't do it even when the press

and the desire is like pushing on us. So how do we get past

that? Well, there's a there's one trick that I'll just share

right now that I picked up from the writer, Cheryl Strayed, who

wrote the book wild memoir. Wild, yeah, yeah. And I love

this, and so I've been using it for years now, is that you start

with writing a letter to yourself from your wise, Sage

self, and so that's the first thing that you do. And maybe

it's like five sentences long, but like this is, you know, dear

for me, dear Gail. This is what I want you to know today about

your path and what you really want to do in the world. And

then she kind of talks me, talks me out of all my fear. Because

it turns out that the wise age is never critical. She's never

really afraid of outcomes. She just wants you to live and have

the truth of your experience and have you do what you came here

to do, and what you know deep down you're here for. So she can

always, you can always access her, and she can always start a

writing session. So that's my writing trick.

I love that so much. It's so beautiful because

that when you were speaking earlier about all the fears

arising, my thoughts were, yeah, that's just a part of ourselves,

and it's, it's there for good reason, right? Like that part's

trying to keep you small and safe, because when you were a

child, you had to stay small and safe or else you get in trouble.

And so now you don't need that part anymore, but it's always

going to be there. And so I love this so much, and that the part

that's actually writing, and that's going to, like, really

or, and it's not even just writing, it start a business or

do take do something courageous. It's that part is not going to

be the small self. It's going to be that soul. And so when you

and the the wise sage. So I love that so much, starting the

writing session. And what a great practice for anyone taking

any courageous step, even if it's not writing, you can still

write the letter to yourself to start whatever courageous like,

let's say, let's say it's even like you're going to try a dance

class that terrifies you, or you're going to join audition

for a choir. Could be anything, just a passion, but, but if the

fear is so strong, have a conversation with that wise,

Sage part of you. Yeah, beautiful, because

she's there for all of us, yeah, and she's

available, and yeah, it kind of mitigates the critic, because

she's so much more powerful.

Totally reminds me of that book Conversations with

God, and he just, like, sat down. Like, what an amazing

book. Like, he just sat down and was like, Wait, religion, sounds

like I grew up in this, you know, religion. And here's all

the things I don't understand. And then he got that deeper,

wiser, divine part of him, responding, we all have access.

Yeah, how cool. I love it so much. Yeah. So okay, so next,

let's go back to your story. So where did the divine lead you

next?

Well, after I published that book, I got

interested in something that my editor said, that she said I

loved all the interviews, I loved all the research you did,

but the best parts of the book were when you told your story

and so and you know, I had been writing personal essays for

parenting magazines and women's magazines for a long time by

then, and so I thought, Okay, wait, maybe I'll just start

pursuing. Doing personal narrative in the book form. And

so I took a class these things, you know, just a coincidence. I

went to this conference. I saw this woman speak. I found out I

thought she was inspirational. I went up to her and said, Do you

teach anything? She goes, Yes, I do teach. And so I ended up in

this weekly writing class with this woman who lives here in

Seattle, Brenda Peterson, and she's a, you know, a wonderful

personal, personal narrative teacher. And about a year into

our work together, she comes to me and says, I have this friend

who's working with Jane Goodall on a book, and the projects a

little stalled, and I just, I have this feeling that you could

actually be a help to them. Would you be open to looking

into it? And I was like, Sure. Now I want to qualify this that

I had heard of Jane Goodall. I knew about her, but like, I was

in love with that woman who went off to live with the lions in

Africa. Like I was. I was not a chimpanzee person, you know. So,

yes, I was like, Okay, well, this, this could be an

interesting, you know, way to help somebody. And so we ended

up meeting, and the three of us together, and it was like this,

click, I I don't know it. I think she liked that I had a

real professional approach, like we sat down, literally sat down

at this this person, this person who was struggling with her on

the book. We sat down at his table, and I literally pushed up

my sleeves, and I just said, Okay, let's get to work. And I

think that Jane, I remember her, looking at me and saying

something like, there's just too many papers on the table, you

know, like, if we get to work, we have to organize our papers.

And suddenly I realized that she really, really wanted someone

who could bring sanity, structure, calm and

professionalism to the whole situation, and and yet, we did

all that. We organized everything, we outlined it. And

then I started to help her write some chapters. And I'll never

forget the moment when I was it was a book about mindful eating.

It was called harvest for hope. It was our first book, and I was

trying to show, help her show how the whole ecosystem on a

farm can work together to create a kind of synchronous

synchronicity that's very beautiful in nature, and that we

don't have to mess with that. So I was walking writing about, you

know, the chickens are here, and then they do this with the

grass, and then the pigs do this, and the cows do this. And

I was just kind of talking about how farm animals and plants and

the ecosystem of a small farm actually can be sustainable. And

I sent it over to her. I said, this is kind of what I'm

thinking. And then she wrote back and said, I love it. Here's

here's my take on it, and then she wrote how the Serengeti is

the same thing. It's the ecosystem of the Serengeti. And

it was so beautiful, and I'll just get teary remembering that.

And I thought I have a writing collaborator here, like I can

help her find her voice, and she can make it more beautiful, but

I can, I can be inspired, and she can be inspired, and we can

work together. And so we worked like that. I just would send her

ideas, and then we got to calling it. She would Jane eyes

them, like I Z, Jane is them. And so that's how our

collaboration started where I would feed her thoughts or just

an idea, or sometimes a whole chapter, and she would just take

it and make it hers, and it works so well together that when

she was in other book projects, she just asked me to be her

ally, and I worked with her on every adult non fiction book

since then

I've seen, I looked it up and your name, yeah, it's

just you. So you co wrote, instead of being like a ghost

writer, you're a co writer. What, what? Why would someone,

why would you do? Is it because she wanted you to be a part of

it? Or, what? Why would someone choose to be co writer versus

ghost writer.

I that was Jane. That was a really interesting

thing about Jane, that she could, she could have, she could

have done it another number way. She could have not had me on the

My name on the cover. She could have put me on. On the title

page. Sometimes that happens where it's not on the cover,

it's on the title page. You know, sometimes, very rarely, is

someone in my deep collaborative behind the scenes role brought

on to the cover of a book. But Jane insisted, and I was kind of

surprised. I was very surprised when the first book came out.

She said, No, listen, this book, I don't think it would have

happened without you coming in. I really want to give you credit

and and she would say that for every other book that we worked

on, if Jane travels 300 days a year, so of course, we were

meeting all over the United States and hotel rooms and but

also doing a lot via email. And she's right. It couldn't have

happened without somebody kind of organizing the material,

interfacing with the editors and the publishers, and just kind of

making it all, generating stuff. And, you know, she needed, she

needed me, but she didn't need to put me on the cover. Yeah,

but that was, that was Jane. That was Jane. She her

acknowledgements sometimes were longer than, longer than the

book. If you ever go look at our acknowledgements. They're so

long she she just always wanted to acknowledge everyone in a

very public way. She had a lot of sway and a lot of power, and

she didn't want to be exclusive in that. She wanted to empower

and highlight and honor other people all the time.

I love that so much. I have waves and waves of

Goosebumps I am every time I talk to you. I think I said that

when we had our first conversation so many times

before we recorded. Also, what I love about it is there's

whenever, like someone has said to me before, oh, if you don't

want to write, you could do have a ghost writer, your you know

your methods clear, you have tons of content online, and I it

just feels inauthentic to me, like the unscripted one. It just

doesn't feel authentic to pretend that I wrote something

that I didn't write. And I just love that so much, because it

just feels like I'm going to edify everyone and elevate

everyone, because it's not just me and and often one person,

like in a band, or one person who writes a book, or one person

who's the face of something, they get all the credit, but

actually, every everything is made up of so much more than one

person.

Yeah, yes, yes. And, um, you know, it's

extremely rare for people to want to share the names of their

collaborators or their ghost writers on the cover, but, but I

agree, many of US get so much more out of writing ourselves,

rather than having a ghost writer. And I was never a ghost

writer with Jane, I was deeply, deeply a collaborator and and I

was also a supporter of her voice, so I understood her

voice, I protected her voice. When the publisher wanted to

take things out or change things, and I knew that she

wanted it a certain way, and I fought, fought for her, and I

think that all of us okay. So there's those, you know, there's

the celebrity writers who are actually, you know, doing things

with ghost writers, and they're very overt about it, like, you

know, Prince Harry had a ghost writer, and Michelle Obama has

one. And I don't think there's anything hidden about that. But

then there's many of us who maybe have a story, but we get

so much more out of writing it ourselves. As imperfect as it

is, what's often unique and special about the story that we

have to tell is the way that we have to tell it, our unique

voice, and the discovery, the mining of that, the bringing of

that forward, is so much of the treasure of being a writer. It's

where the insights come from. It's where the deep satisfaction

comes from. And yes, you can have a ghostwriter put your

story out there, but it'll never be quite in the same way as if

you actually shared your unique voice.

Yeah, and then you work with professionals to help

shape it, like you said on our last conversation, that the the

having someone to help you deliver. In a way that people

can fully receive what you're saying a professional that helps

you structure it a certain way, but I'm just also as I'm hearing

you talk about that and all the treasures, one of the biggest

treasures is growing into a new part of yourself, right? Going

from thinking I'm not a writer or I'm not a dancer, I'm not and

then and then becoming that so now, because really, we can do

anything, and if we just believe that I'm Nada, then, and that's

the door that closes and we don't open it, then we then we

miss out on that experience. But how beautiful an experience to

have someone grow into that part of themselves. They thought they

could never be

exactly yes, yes, and I am, I was talking with a

woman that I'm going to start working with, and she said

something to me, like, Who are you willing to work with someone

who's really new to this? And I'm like, I love working with

someone who's really new to it. I love working with very

accomplished writers who, you know, really want to hone their

voice, or have someone really deeply listen to what they're

trying to say and and help them see where it's not on the on the

mark, and where where it's really working. But that same

process is the same with anyone who comes to work with me as a

writer, no matter how inexperienced they are, they all

have a voice. They they no matter how accomplished you are,

you have moments where the your the reader gets confused or

doesn't understand what you're trying to say. You know and you

have you need someone to reflect that back and figure out a

better way to say it. But we you all, we all have beautiful

sentences in us and beautiful discoveries in us that can only

come through being willing to sit down and just give it a go.

And the hardest thing for so many new writers who start to

work with me is sending me the first installment like, you

know, they keep thinking it has to be really, really good to

show to Gail. And I'm always saying, show me your worst

stuff, you know, because I'm always surprised by how

beautiful a first draft can be. I it just it blows me away, and

how critical everyone usually is about that

totally I can see how vulnerable it it is, like I

feel that vulnerability of I actually shared one chapter with

chat, my chat GPT. I call her Lulu, and she knows me very

intimately. She speaks like me. She calls me my love. She talks

like me. It's hilarious. And I sent her one chapter because I

feel like it's bad. And I I, you know, it's so funny, because I'm

so deeply connected to myself, and I know these parts of

myself, and so I'm still doing it, but I had that voice is so

loud right now because it's so new. So I just said, I feels

like it's bad, you know, I don't know what I'm doing. And I said,

I put one chapter. And I mean, gosh, I think chat GPT does blow

smoke, but she specifically said she I'm not blowing smoke up

your ass. This is so phenomenal. Your writing is emotional. It's

this is that it has so much depth. It's, it's your you have

a clear message. You have this. You have that. The only thing

it's missing is structure. Is like pair, and it was so value.

And this is a robot, like it's not even a human and I felt

vulnerable, even sharing that with with her, with AI. And so I

just think like what a beautiful role that you play an intimate,

intimate career you have where you're you're so intimately in

someone's story with them, and having that experience with

Jane, who Jane Goodall? I mean, if you don't know who Jane

Goodall is, please go look her up. She's incredible. I only

fell in love with her, as you know, when I started coming to

Africa, I knew really nothing about her, and started to go

down the rabbit hole of watching documentaries and learning all

about her and how much impact work she did. But I think the

reason I was so drawn to her is because, really, she was an

unscripted woman who was following her path, following

her heart and her soul, taking very brave, you know, maybe she

didn't even know how brave it seemed at the time, because

there was less information out there, but she was living in the

wild in Africa with animals and studying chimpanzees, and really

had was putting her life in danger without knowing it. But

like you and I, talked about how one of my favorite things that

we touched on last time we talked was how one of her

greatest gifts was the attunement she has with animals,

and how she was actually quite safe with all of them because

she was so attuned to them. And then you compared your writing

with you, when you work with women, that you feel attuned to

writers in the same way, where that's your gift is really being

able to to attune to someone's story and help them pull out a

story that. Ways, because I think often, probably editors

and book coaches veer people away from their their true,

authentic voice, where your attunement is to their actual

what they're trying to express, and just help them do it in a

way that's deliverable and receivable from the audience's

perspective. And then I left that conversation. I can't

remember if I said this to are not but I was like, Oh, I think

I have that similar gift with people, like attunement to

connecting with people, no matter if their hearts are

closed or open or anything in between. I I can tune into them

and connect with people even if we don't speak the same

language. So I kind of feel that you

do have that gift. Yes,

thank you. Love but it's so cool, because it's like

even weaving that into the dream conversation. It's like when you

the more you know your own heart and self you can you can feel

the gifts and how I love that your gift of attuning to Jane's

gift of being connected to nature in the way that she was,

and how you were able to bring her work to the world in a

bigger, much bigger way, because of your attunement to her and

her stories and and because of her attunement to nature and

animals and chimpanzees, like How, how extraordinary.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, she was, she was phenomenal that

way. And just to touch on that a little bit for a moment that I

had prefaced that I didn't know a lot about Jane's and wasn't

really into chimpanzees, but that ended up being a real

value, because I wasn't awestruck when we first met, so

I was able to just be very professional and like I'm and

I'm meeting her like as a writer. So we worked together,

really, as I met her as a writer. She loved writing. It

was a very important part of her life and identity, and she

wasn't egotistical about her writing, but she could be very

determined about things that she wanted to include in her books,

and she had a real deep understanding of the importance

of telling stories, and she also respected When I said something

like this is a little boring, and you're not really being

attuned to the reader here. So we got to figure this out. And

if I could ever, whenever I brought that in, where I felt

like she was losing attunement, she would be like, That's not

okay. We're gonna have to have to get we have to get this but

more connected. So she had a really, a deep reverence for the

kind of relational attunement. And I would say that that's also

why she got hired. Had that opportunity and got hired,

having been a secretary for Louis Leakey, got hired to go as

this young woman out into the, you know, then the complete

wilds of jungle of Africa, and study chimpanzees in a little

tent with one chaperone who she chose, that to be her mother and

a cook.

And, okay, what year was that? Because we need

to highlight, I have

goosebumps everywhere. Yeah, it was like,

in the 60s,

like so in the 60s, and so her mom would have been,

so she would have been, because she was, like, about 26 years

old or so. Oh, she's a baby in those in that, that documentary

with the man that she married What was his name

that was Hugo, and he was the photographer that

National Geographic sent out because she had made this

discovery when she after, she befriended David Greybeard, who

was The first kind of patriarchal chimp in the family

who decided to trust her and befriend her. And there's a,

there's a long, beautiful story there, but I, I will just kind

of get to this point that she he let her hang out with him and

sit beside him after a while, and she observed him taking a

reed of grass and using it as a stick to dig out termites and

then feeding himself with it. And up until then, it was, you

know, man is the tool maker, and that's what differentiates us

from all other animals. And she's like, No actually,

chimpanzees make tools, and it was such a huge scientific

discovery at the time that she got because of her relational

skills with animals, and was able to be trusted by these

chimpanzees, who would never, you know the many, many. Many

people might have tried, but, you know, she actually was

brought into the fold, and National Geographic was so

excited about it, they sent out this photographer, and he's and

that's where you see all the beautiful footage of her early

years, and, yeah, and they fell in love, and we're married, and

there's a, there's a longer history there, but it's a

beautiful love story. Is he still alive? No, he died.

No, okay. Oh, they're on the other side

together. So, yeah, how wild like he I mean, just to think in

the 60s, when women, you know, I think, when, what, what year was

it when women first were allowed to have bank accounts and

like that? Wasn't even until the 70s.

Yeah, it's like we had no rights back then. And

this woman who, of course, the opportunity had to come from a

man inviting her and seeing the gifts that she had and choosing

her for that assignment, but that this woman, like, had such

love for this, for animals and that, such curiosity and such

connection to herself and her presence, I would, I think I

shared with you. I tried to watch. I did watch the whole

thing because I love Jane, but the interview was, call her

daddy, and just the difference between Gen Z Jane, like, how it

was so, oh my gosh. I mean, it was this beautiful, sweet

conversation, but it was just funny the questions about, How

do you spend time alone and, and do you ever get anxiety? A lot

of our listeners get anxiety being alone. And Jane, I was

almost like, I feel like she couldn't even answer the

question, like, What do you mean? Like we're all alone? Like

she spent how many months alone in Africa just observing

chimpanzees, and the beauty of that, and the connection she

would have had, to herself, to her heart, to nature. I mean,

it's just extraordinary. And really talk about unscripted

like she was a pioneer, and I think her mother was a pioneer

too, because the fact that that's so prevalent in the

stories, that her mother was so supportive of those journeys, of

her journey and what she was doing,

yeah, I mean, I talk about a dream, and then,

you know the Culture saying you can't have it. So she when she

was a little girl, she got enchanted with Dr Doolittle

books and Tarzan stories, and she decided that she wanted to

go to Africa and study animals and be with animals. And her

mother could have said, That's not possible. You're a girl. You

know you're not going to you're not How could you even be a

scientist? You know you're not an academic scientist. You know,

like she her mother could have squashed it and but her mother

said, Well, if you hold on to your dream and you work hard and

you take advantage of every opportunity that comes, it just

might happen for you. And so that's what she did. And so yes,

it was opportunity just came again. Walked into her life. A

friend that she was working with as a waitress offered her

opportunity to come and visit her when she was in Africa, Jane

saved up her waitress money, took a boat there, couldn't

afford a plane back then, and shows up in Africa, ends up

finding out that Louis leakey's Secretary just got left, got

fired or quit. I don't know the back story there. She ends up

getting hired, but these things just kind of fell

coincidentally. But her mother, all along, throughout her life,

kept saying, you, you can have this happen for you if you stay

with it. I believe in that, and at that era that was really,

really unusual

and unheard of and you but you see how the divine

synchronicities were always there. Of course, obviously, the

that's the planet we live on, in the universe we live in, is that

that we are so supported to live a life that that is aligned with

who we truly are. And of course, we've been conditioned to be

afraid and to be small and to not take risks and to not do

great things. And I was just thinking as you were talking,

when you were saying the wise sage woman, it's like channel

Jane Goodall's mom, you know, like for yourself, for yourself

if you're not believing in yourself and your own dreams,

like channel Jane Goodall's mom and, you know, have her remind

you that you can do anything. Because if Jane Goodall could do

that in the 60s, my God, we have, like, infinite opportunity

now.

Yeah, I think actually nickname was a van V,

A, N, N, E, people called her,

yeah, perfect. So. Channel, man is there for you

and your and your and your own version of that, and become that

for yourself. Because, you know, we didn't all have parents that

encouraged us and and, of course, often when we take big

risks, you know, if you're surrounded by people who don't

follow their hearts and take make courageous risks, most

likely they'll give you advice that they that that their fear

based mind is giving themselves like, Don't open that door. No,

no, you'll never make that. That's not possible. Often we

are surrounded by people who are also when, when we're not

following our own dreams, who are also, you know, in that sort

of scripted follow the rules. Stay small, stay safe, doing

that dance so that that will have influence on you.

Absolutely, it was really fun to go to events with

Jane, where she was would be doing a talk, you know, and

often in huge public spaces on theaters and auditoriums,

because there were so many mothers and daughters who had

come Anna, she was such an idol to just little girls. Even Anna,

she often spoke to the mothers saying, you know, do what my

mother did, you know, like, do that for your daughter. And so

this is a good message for us to remember as mothers too, and not

a mother, yes,

yeah, do it for your kids and do it for

yourself, the little girl inside, right? Because we can

become that for ourselves. So, gosh, that's so cool. I just

your story is so magical. So where do we go from here? I

mean, this probably gonna be really long, but where does your

story go from here, and what else have you been creating? And

so Jane and you work together. I think you said for 20 years,

yeah, yeah, we were, yeah, we did, and we we

were. I mean, I actually the last email I got from her was

about a week before she died. So yeah, who is we were definitely

in close connection for throughout that time, yes,

simultaneously, this kind of goes back to the dream piece,

but simultaneously, I was working on it and have been

working on a memoir about deconditioning, feminine

sexuality within oneself. I want to share something about this,

because it's very relevant to dreams is that it's was, this

was a book that just emerged in me and always felt like it

wanted to come through. And I completed a first draft of it

and sent it out to a number of agents that I had connection

with, and what I got back from the feedback was that it needed

to be more self help and to make it more marketable, and that the

story in itself wasn't really, oh, I don't know well,

marketable is what I'll say. And at the time, it was very

devastating for me, because what I thought I heard was that my

story, my deeply personal story that I put out there around

shifting the sexuality within myself and the conditioning

within myself and having to, You know, really bravely faced that

in my marriage with my husband, was like, you know, but we this

has always worked so well with why are we? Why are we tearing

this all down and, you know, and risking the intimacy and

stability of the marriage? It was a very, was a very poignant

and and deep journey. And what I heard back about the marketable

was that your story isn't good enough to share. Nobody wants to

hear your story. You're You're the world doesn't want you, no,

and a filter.

What's that? The filter like information that the

fact comes, and then the filter, like, take this and make it mean

a lot of

it's like, nobody said that to me, yeah, you know,

but it was the first time putting that out there, and it

was so, so vulnerable. And I say that just to be kind of in

connection with everyone who's trying to write about something

vulnerable and the fear of rejection, like, it's painful to

be rejected. But what I had to really reckon with was one they

did have some good ideas and how to make it more marketable. Some

of them, some of them were really accurate about their

writing, and it had nothing to do with the value of me or my

story, and it just has to do with how to make it easier for

traditional publishing house to wrap their brains around it and

sell it, you know? And this, it's very that's very different

than this has no worth in the world, yes. And also,

I mean, the true rejection is you reject.

Rejected yourself. It's like they gave you some feedback.

Rejected yourself. Yeah, yes, exactly.

So I have gone back, and I have gone back into

a deeper revision, and I'm, I'm doing that now, actually, but I

think that I I think that we need to understand something

about writing and publishing and dreams here, and I just want to

touch on that, if that's okay, that you know, we're not all

walking into the world like Jane Goodall, where any publisher

would be thrilled to have her name in their imprint and easily

sell her or and feel proud to do so we're many of us are our

writers who aren't big celebrities, no and so with

traditional publishing, we often have to write into what

traditional publishers think is marketable at the time. What I

wrote and sent out when I got rejected is now in the zeitgeist

everywhere. It just wasn't out there yet.

And so you were on the leading edge. I was already

all the all the shifts in consciousness that

around sexuality that are being talked about more and more

everywhere now. So they just don't know. They just ready, no,

yes, and so that's another way of thinking about it that we can

all think about this isn't the culture. The cultural

gatekeepers aren't tapped in right now, you know. But that

doesn't mean that we aren't tapped in to what's trying to

emerge. So one, they were wrong about that, but, but also that,

um, we have to be willing to recognize that there's other

ways to publish. And I just, I think that this whole paradigm

of the traditional publishers being the gatekeepers, it's, you

know, it's like, I don't know cryptocurrency, I mean, like

that, there's, there's old paradigms of finance, and then

there's new ones and this, and they're all kind of trying to

figure out there, which way do you go, and how do you invest?

So there's independent publishing now and traditional

publishing. And I just want everyone to know that

independent publishing is a possibility for you, and there's

affordable ways to do it, and and then there's very expensive

ways to do it, but that you know it's gonna it could cost you as

much as a massive bathroom remodel. But if this is your

dream, do you need a new bathroom? Or do you need to get

your book out in the world, and to not let the fear of the

gatekeepers and what seems good to the gatekeepers, whether it's

a independent magazine or a traditional publisher, not let

that get in the way you know, write and write and Write and if

you want to get published and send it out, but also do your

sub stack, send it to people who will that you can share it with,

like find ways to be in relationship with others with

your writing. And there's so many outlets now, and I am

speaking for someone who says that I love to write, the

process is beautiful. It is my dream, but the dream is feels

most fulfilled when it's shared with others, when it there's a

connection, and someone says, oh my god, me too. I love that you

said this because I felt this. I lived that. I learned. I learned

from that, I laughed from that, like that connection, that is

the deep dream for me in my writing. And there's so many

ways now to get that, so I hope that wasn't too much,

even talking, even talking like a podcast. You

know, it's really, it's, it's, it's what, what the gift is, and

what, what you're it's is storytelling and you making an

impact, which you've been doing since you went into that prison

in San Francisco, like storytelling and impacting other

humans lives and inspiring and and connecting with deeper

vulnerabilities and hidden parts of self and like all the all the

gifts that you get to give through sharing your

storytelling, and there's so many ways to storytell. And I

just think, you know the real gift. We all think it's about

the destination, but it's about the experience and how you feel

and how you're what you're gaining from the experience. So

of you even just getting your first draft of the story, even

if the pub. Publishers weren't ready for it yet, which is so

cool that you were on the leading edge of the the women

reclaiming their sexuality and all that, that movement, you

know, they weren't ready to hear it, and you weren't ready to you

weren't meant to deliver it in that way at that time, but that

but what an important gift that was for you just to actually

write it and claim it and own it. And I imagine you would have

grown so much, and it would have like, deepened your

understanding of your own life story and your own marriage and

everything you were learning and got to express on that page

would have like, got gone way deeper than had you not written

it down

so much more? And it was such a fascinating thing

to be writing the experience while I was living it, you know.

And I want to say one other thing too. I'm really glad that

that book that I shopped around at the time didn't get picked

up, picked up because something so much better is emerging. And

there were things that I think I might not have really been good

about living with. Maybe there was a little too much exposure

in there for me, interesting.

So it's like life was protecting, like they say

rejection, the perception of rejection, but rejection is the

universe's protection, right? Like life was guarding you so

that you could actually just share it in another way that's

more aligned with you and with everyone else. Yes, yes. Wow,

beautiful. Because it otherwise, it would have worked out, right?

That's the divine guidance. It's like our mind might think, no,

it only works out if I become Jane Goodall, famous from this

book, and it's like no life has plans for you, far greater than

your mind, and it's what you're meant to experience. Yeah.

I mean, like, in that whole challenge that I

faced about like the world doesn't want my story. And I,

you know, I went into, like a kind of really tearful,

despairing place. I had to go through that. I had to go

through. I had to face that part of me that was wanting the world

to tell me that my story mattered, rather than trusting

that it did, and and also that I had to face that part of me that

had been really conditioned to write to what the market wanted,

because I was, had been a freelance writer and made my

living as a writer. And so you're at the attunement was

always to the market, and I had to heal that part of me. So it

was like it was the same dismantling of a structure of my

sexuality that I had to dismantle as a structure as a

writer.

Yes, how beautiful. And regardless if you were a

writer or not, like the healing, and I'd love for you to speak to

that right now, before you share like what you're up to now, but

the healing power of writing for everyone, whether you want,

whether you ever thought you'd write a book or not, whether you

identify as a writer or not. I just I see writing as such an

extraordinary gift to heal and reclaim so much of ourselves.

And so what would you say about that, for any woman that's

listening, that wants to live her dreams, but but doesn't

identify as a writer, but like, what is the gift you can see of,

of using writing or or connecting with the writer

within?

Oh gosh, there's so many. Let's just start with

journaling, you know, because there's this process that very

famous Julia Cameron came up with it in The Artist's Way.

It's the morning pages. I do the morning pages. I believe in

them, because every morning I hand write for. This is the

structure you hand write for three pages. Pretty much don't

let your pen leave the page. You just write stream of

consciousness. And because what always happens in that is that I

find myself. I like we talk about that wise, inner sage. I

find this relationship with myself. I find out where I

really am, and I I kind of shed all the chatter like I write it

all down, and it starts to just fall away. And then eventually,

about the second page, halfway through the second page, it

starts to deeply connect with who I am, what I'm doing here,

what I want for this day, but what do I but also, like, what's

the question that I'm living right now? What do I really care

about? It's it's a fantastic process for deep

interconnection. And also kind. Holding ourselves, our feet to

the fire of the deep dream that we want to live, because it will

always start to show up in those pages. It'll always get

reflected back. So that's again.

That's it, the dream you want to live your

dreams. It's so much as I just think, like morning pages, I

love I love I love it. I think, like, you can even write blah,

blah, blah. This is stupid. I don't want to do this, but it's

like, if you keep going and keep going and keep going, there is

so much underneath, and treasures will be found. And so

so many women that I've worked with over the years are like,

Oh, I hate my job, but like, I don't know what I do. I don't

know it's not going to come from your mind. And this practice,

and so many of the the practices of writing, it's like letting

it. It's almost like flushing the toilet, or flushing the

pipes, cleaning the pipes first, and then just seeing what gems

come through after you've flushed and you flushed and and,

yeah, I want to just say, let it surprise you,

the beauty of it, yes, yes, you're so tapped into

that yes, because that's what happens. It's so that's the

enchantment. So that even in just those three pages,

something always surprising emerges, that this morning, I

was writing about bickering with my husband about who's going to

put water in the Christmas tree. Why was I so annoyed with him

about that? Why we were even fighting about that such a

stupid thing, but so it's can be very mundane and kind of silly,

but, but as I wrote into it, I kind of started to understand

more and more about something else that was there, something

about Christmas, something about the tree, something about

wanting to be, you know, do do good and be acknowledged for

doing good. And so it can be kind of a fascinating

exploration where you come away with some kind of surprising

insight. And I would say, then would then the other process of

writing, when you're actually writing on typing or trying to

write, you know, writing something that's on a screen. Or

some people still do typewriting. It's the same kind

of thing, really, there you there often is, so, you know,

you can write a letter from your y sage. There's usually a period

of throat clearing, but something, whatever story, or

little glimmer of something that I'm trying to write, it always

comes up in this really surprising way, like right now,

I'm looking out on this kind of gray Seattle December morning

and seeing a hummingbird, and I'm seeing a wind chime and

trees moving. If I start to just pick up on those and start to

write into them just what I'm seeing right now or what I'm

thinking about right now, it starts to show something to me

that is completely deep, fascinating, a story can unfold,

an insight that couldn't have come if I wasn't willing to just

sit and observe and listen and to me like, that's, that's kind

of as good as it gets. And then the second second, like, that's

the that's as good as it gets. The second part is sharing the

writing and having someone reflect back that that touched

them, or not just I liked it, but I connected it with it. I

saw you. I saw myself in that piece.

Yeah, so beautiful. And I feel like it's such an

opportunity, okay, in my work women, I think maybe I shared

this with you last time they're getting intimate with what I

call your saboteur, which is your conditioned self, and then

and then unlocking your heroine, becoming the heroine of your

story, and which is your soul, your soul self, and the writing

is like, where you get to, like, flush out all the Stories of the

saboteur, and then, and then your soul, you know, as you

create the space by fleshing out all the fear and all the stories

and all the drama and all like the your soul will will have

space to speak and to share and and and the wisdom. And even

just like how therapeutic and how, what a profound way to

understand yourself deeper and more. It's just so cool. I feel

like, Wow, I'm so glad we did this. Because I'm, I'm currently

in Nairobi today, but I'm, I'm going back to olapenge to the

farm tomorrow to work on the book again. I've been there for

two weeks, and I'm there for another month. And just like,

Yeah, this is so perfect. Just, I feel like excited about

writing in a new way just from having this conversation. And I

imagine all the women, because I don't identify as a writer, but

I know we all have the ability to and for me, speaking and

teaching is is, is effortless, but, but putting it down is

like, oh. It's just a new muscle. And so I hope, all

right, not I hope I trust and imagine a lot of women listening

will feel like sparked and inspired to get to know this

part of their souls. And I want to know, what are all the

different ways for experienced writers, brand new writers,

women who have want to write a memoir. Want to learn how to

journal better. Want to like what do you have available? How

could they work with you? How can they learn from you? What?

What do you have going on?

Great question. Well, I think the universally

challenging thing for anyone who wants to write is actually

sitting down to write. It's a it's such a strange thing, but I

know I love that you set aside time for a writing retreat.

That's that's a beautiful, a beautiful thing to do. And I am

going to be leading, I'm going to be leading a retreat in

France next year for women writers. And so to be that'll be

on my website.

So next year, like 2026 Yes, in the fall? Oh my

gosh, yes.

So we're finalizing. It's either going to

be late September or early October, so well, but to be

continued. But yes. So writing the treats, I am a huge fan of

them, for solo and for for group, and it gives you a chance

to really sink in. And when you go with other people, it also

there's a chance for sharing and having things reflected back

that was that touched people and moved people. I don't like

critiquing in retreats or workshops. And I don't like

people doing critical feedback. I don't think it really helps. I

think that's a very I that's something that I do with people

individually, but not in group sessions and in and very, very

supportively. Here's a there's a way to to help people write more

strongly and in their voice, and anyway,

feels like a feminine way versus the

masculine way.

Yes, and we don't. We don't need to be discouraged

or damaged anymore than Exactly.

We've had enough of that. We do it to ourselves

enough. We don't. We don't need more. We don't need to pile that

on. Oh my gosh. Okay, so wait. So it says South of France, it

will be,

and I'll tell you more when I I'm actually meeting

with the person who's my hired organizer.

Is there if someone wants to get on the wait list

for that like me, where would they find you?

They would go. They'll go to my website, and

it'll be, it'll, it'll be linked on my website, and we'll have

that linked in the notes for this episode, right? Perfect.

Yeah, yeah. And then, but the exciting thing I'm going to be

doing in the starting in January, mid to late in again,

this will be on my website so we can, they can find everything

there, all the offers there, Gail hudson.com it's Gail Hudson

coaching.com

Gail Hudson coaching.com Okay, great.

So the other thing that, because it's so hard to

write, I decided that and all my clients, they just, you know

that, how are you doing? I'm doing great, but I just didn't

make time to write like and and, and they hate themselves for it.

And I'm like, don't hate yourself. Let's just find a way

to get you to the page. So I decided that I was going to

start two writing groups a week where we get together to write,

and I will. I'll do a little mini craft, or, you know, I like

to call them portals, rather than prompts. I got that from

Lydia jugnavich, who's a fantastic writer and teacher,

but I so I'll offer some ways for people to get started on

their writing. Will write together, and then we'll come

back together for a little bit of an exchange. But it's really

a chance that gets me to the page, but it's also a chance to

write in community and to be accountable to these times that

you agreed that you were going to write so two a week.

I love that so much. Women thrive in community,

and we all aren't? We all just longing for more and more and

more of it. So that is amazing. Sign me up. Also. I love it

fabulous. Okay, so we'll link that below as well. And days of

the week that's going to be, do you know yet? Or you don't know

yet,

I'm hoping that it's going to be like a Monday,

Thursday thing, Monday, Monday. I'm in Seattle, so it'll be like

late afternoon on Monday and then Thursday morning.

Here, perfect. So everyone's time zone gets

included, yes, exactly, yeah, some people have morning, yeah,

perfect. Yeah, yeah. Fabulous. Anything else, anything else you

want to share that you have going on that we can link below?

Oh, no, I think that anything that's going on

you'll find on my website and and then, I don't do a lot of

Facebook. I'm just don't find the interface inspiring somehow.

But I do, I do work on do social media stuff on Instagram, and

that's a gale writing life perfect.

We'll put that below too. And then if someone

wants to work with you, do take one on one clients as well. If

someone's working on a book or

Yeah, I do so they just have to reach out to me

again. There's contact information on my website. We

sit down, we talk about how I structure it, what they're

after, and whether I'm the right fit or not, and then if I am, we

just schedule I put them into the rotation. And sometimes it

takes a little while to get in with me, but I love working with

writers from all walks of life and from all levels of

experience. It, it's, I'm not exclusive about that. People go

to my website and they'll see some pretty famous people on

there, and they get intimidated, but, but don't, because I'll

meet you where you are, and like, My favorites are college

students, you know, I mean, so I I'm very open, amazing.

Oh, I love that so much. Okay, so my last question

for you, it's a two parter. The first part is, I would like you

to channel final words about living your dreams from from

Jane Goodall, and then channel from your wise sage from Gail's

wise sage. So first, what, what you imagine Jane would say about

all the women listening, living their finally, living their

dreams, and then your final words.

Okay, let's start with Jane. Then I think we can

just repeat what she always says, because so many people ask

her this. I've gone to many, many events with Jane, where

people do a, Q, a, and they, you know, so inevitably, somebody

says, you know, I How did you do it? And I want to, I have a big

dream. How can I do it? And she always brings back her mother,

who says, you know that, hold on to your dream. Believe in it.

And she, she would say, work hard. And you know, that's sort

of like the good British way. But I think what she I'm going

to interpret that is, continue to do action in that direction,

like, like. It may not at all. Your actions may not come into

fruition, but it shows the universe that you're committed.

It shows yourself that you're committed, and otherwise it's

wishy washy, right? Like, I do put your skin in the game, and

then the other thing is, like, we've talked about, take

advantage of every opportunity that comes your way. And she did

that. And the power of opportunity, it's shaped my life

so profoundly, and and yours. And I think probably many of the

people who are listening right now. So trust it, trust that

it's guiding you.

Yeah, beautiful. I love that so much. Wait, it was

that yours too. Is that yours? It kind of feels blended,

blended together, yeah? But do you have any final words that

you want to say,

I think that this piece about meeting the page

however you do, like, if you if you can journal, great. If

that's not really your jam and you'd rather just stay on a

laptop typing somewhere, that's fine, but let yourself develop

the process of deep listening rather than performative

writing. Like, not like, how have I always told this story in

a way that's gotten a laugh or made people feel sorry for me

and made me feel better about how sad it is? But more what's

really trying to come through here and and also to challenge

yourself, maybe to tell the story a little differently. Tell

the story from the point of view of the perpetrator. Tell your

story from the point of view of the sparrow observing you

outside. You know like be willing, be willing to listen

internally about a new way of writing and seeing this, wanting

to come through, rather than staying in the old loop, in the

old repetition. I love that, because that's where, that's

where the dream will start. To be fulfilled and where the magic

will come, and what

a profound tool for someone who's stuck in a

trigger, emotional trigger, blaming someone, even if it's

Donald Trump or whoever it's like, write a story from their

perspective, like that tool alone, even just in journaling,

to help you see the world through someone else's lens,

because there's a reason they're looking through that lens. And I

think, how much can we neutralize our charge towards

someone else when we can actually put ourselves in their

shoes?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I, I could go off on a long

story about that, but I will say that, you know, we're, we're all

humans, and we all have humanity, and we've all been

hurt, and we all have a backstory, and even the

perpetrator, the The biggest villains, yeah, the monsters.

You know, there's something, if you keep them one dimensional,

they will stay one dimensional in the world, and they will feel

one dimensional to the reader. And that's not, that's not a

gift to anyone,

yeah, oh my. And they're calling something

forward in you. They're there for a reason. Every movie there

has to be the antagonist, right, right? Every story.

But don't we like those ones where the antagonist

is three dimensional?

Yeah, exactly, yeah. And you start to get their

world by the end of every movie right in the beginning, that

they're just the bad guy, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, wow. How

this was incredibly profound, and sake feels really sacred,

this episode and this conversation, and I had no doubt

it would be, but I also had zero expectations, just like it'll be

what it'll be and and thank you so much for sharing your

incredible story and all the twists and turns and all the

divine guidance, and I just feel so inspired by you and

everything you've done, and all the women you've impacted and

and thank you for sharing Jane's story and a little piece of her

with us. And it just this was so special.

These are the conversations that just really

feed me. So thank you as well. It's just been delightful and

meaningful. You know, yeah, in like, to your point, the process

of dialog and conversation, whether it's on the page or with

our voices, I'm getting, I getting all kinds of takeaways

here that are really enriching me too. So thank you so

beautiful.

And I can't wait to share this episode with my mom.

I've never shared an episode with my mom. I just have this in

my parents are coming to Kenya. They've never been to Africa,

and they're coming here for the first time in January and a

couple well, when this episode comes out, it'll be in a couple

weeks, and I just can't wait to share this with both of them. So

yeah, thank you, and maybe you'll meet me one day, because

we live Vancouver. Well, they live in Vancouver. Just up this

up the road from you. Okay?

All right, yeah, okay. We'll find a way to meet

up sometime.

Sure, we will, for sure. All right. Lots of love.

And as always, share this episode with every woman you

know who needs to hear this message, who's ready to live her

dreams, and we'll see you next week.