PJ Ellis (00:38)

right. Welcome to what's in grit. We've.

got the lovely Lisa Butler on the pod today. 18 years in the military, the veteran, the lady, the super coach that helps individuals and organisations build courageous, integrity driven teams, helping people find their leadership magic and create impactful teams without the burnout. Now, before you introduce yourself, Lisa, I need all of the above. Can you help me?

Lisa Butler (01:09)

No problem, how much time have we got?

Andy (01:11)

Thank ⁓

PJ Ellis (01:11)

Yeah, lock the doors, lock the doors. So

Lisa, welcome to the pod. Tell us a little bit more about yourself. Who is Lisa Butler?

Lisa Butler (01:18)

So I think Lisa Butler is a woman of two halves. So on one side there is Lisa who rescues worms from puddles and feels most at peace when she's in the trees, loves a slice of cake and ⁓ is one of those people who shares the shadows. And then on the other side is Lisa who was told that she would never be an army officer because of her

educational background and her family situation and then went on to be an Army major. I left the Army in 2014. I was a personal trainer for women to start with. I really wanted to help women who had struggled during pregnancy and postnatal, like physically and emotionally. And then that evolved into doing

hypnotherapy and massage and then gradually as we approached Covid I realised that actually I didn't really love exercise programming, I loved asking lots of questions. Then Covid happened, realised that I was not going to be Jo Wicks II and a friend's new boyfriend said to me, Lisa I think it's great that you're doing all this work with women but actually we're in the middle of a national crisis, why are you not using your leadership experience in the military? And I was

kind of, this might sound really random, but I remember looking at him going, me? And he said, well, yeah. And I hadn't really realised until that point, but I didn't really consider myself to be a leader. And I then sat down one day at the front of LinkedIn, I was like, right, I need to do this thing about leadership, right, okay. So I sat with a cup of tea and a packet of ginger nut biscuits in front of my laptop. And I was like, I don't even know what to say. So I wrote a poem called, Fat Married, Three Kids in a Labrador.

and I got over, I reposted it a year later, but I had over 9,000 reactions and like 600,000 impressions. I didn't know what to do with that, but I just remember thinking, there's a lot of other people who feel the same way. And then I've just started writing and then became more embroiled in coaching. And here I am now, coaching and loving helping people find them.

Andy (03:37)

Fantastic. Yeah, fantastic. Now, there's one thing you mentioned there, I've to go back to it because everyone will be going, you've got to have asked to that. So take us back to that conversation or that situation where you were told you would never be an officer, you would never make it. Take us back there and just tell us how you felt and what you did next.

Lisa Butler (03:58)

So I was probably about 14, 15 years old. I didn't really like school. I lived on a really crappy council house, had a broken family, all that kind of good stuff. And I remember talking to Mr Carvel, my maths teacher, and he said, Lisa, what do you want to do when you're older? And I said, I want to be an army officer in the Royal Military Police. And he went, you? And I said, yes, me. And he said, but you would never be able to do that because you're not clever enough. And I was like, OK. ⁓

And I remember thinking, well, you're wrong. then it didn't spare me on to work harder at school. just, in my head, stuck my fingers up and just thought, well, that's exactly what I am going to do. So I wouldn't, I don't know why you would want me to think anything else. But I remember thinking, being disappointed by his response, not really understanding his response because that wasn't even a feature of my brain set.

I was going to be an army officer and that was what I was going to do. So at the time I had joined the army cadets and I just...

In my head I've always kind of, I have like a racetrack, I can see it and all of the things I want to achieve are physical hurdles along the way and everything that I want to do is merely finding a way to get over around or through it and that's just what happened with that.

PJ Ellis (05:22)

So when you are that young lady speaking to Mr Carvel and you've got that track in your mind, why is being in the army at the very end of that? Any reason?

Lisa Butler (05:33)

So my mum was in the army, my dad was in the army, and my granddad was a Royal Marine, but it had never really been a consideration to join the army. But my mum got her photo album out, this is so cringy, got her photo album out and said, let me show you some pictures from when I was in the army. And I was like, that would be lovely. So I sat there and she painted this picture of parties and like she had the most wonderful time back in the late seventies. And I was like, that sounds cool. I had no...

desire to ever go to university. I'm not, I just think, didn't get huge joy from learning and things. I also wanted to leave home as quickly as possible. And so I guess I ran away to join the circus. But the army offered me an opportunity to be rewarded for the work that I did, to be part of the team, lots and lots of.

different things to do, lots of adventure, lots of really cool people doing the same thing at the same time, similar age, like it was awesome. That was what I wanted to do.

Andy (06:37)

And how did that journey go then? Can you just quickly take us through that kind of journey from starting to going through it to getting to the end?

Lisa Butler (06:44)

Okay, I wanted to be an officer, so I needed to have at least A levels. So I did my GCSEs, they were okay. And then I went, so I did my A levels and I got an E, an N, no sorry, that was second time round. The first time round I got a U, an N, and some other really pointless grades. So I completely flunked it first time round.

wanted to leave, wanted to leave home, wanted to join the army as a soldier, was like right I'm just going to join and my mum said no you have to stay and you have to do your A levels again. I was like that's disappointing so went and did them again and managed to go up one grade so I got an F and N so I didn't do particularly well at all and I said to my mum that if I can keep you know I can keep on with this education thing but I'm going to be 26 before I get an A I'm joining the army.

PJ Ellis (07:28)

Progress.

Lisa Butler (07:40)

So that summer I joined up as a soldier, I joined the military police and I did two years in the military police. Then I really still wanted to be an officer so I went to the education centre and said I didn't do very well in my A levels, I'd like to do them again because I want to be an officer. And at that point they were running a course called the Potential Officers Development Course. So I got sent on that and then I passed RCB and then I went to Santerst.

PJ Ellis (08:08)

Wow. I mean, that's resilience already. mean, how old would you have been 18, 19 at that stage?

Lisa Butler (08:14)

So I was 19 when I first joined and I was 22 when I was commissioned.

PJ Ellis (08:17)

See.

Wow, I mean, a three year journey of having that road track in mind, but those boundaries and those obstacles becoming a little bit more, you know, tangible that you feel that, you you failed that exam, you got to do another exam. I'm sure, what was your mom and dad like during that time? Were they supportive? Were they saying, go again, let's do this? Or was it just you, your mindset? Was it just like, right, I'm going through these walls until I get to where I need to be.

Lisa Butler (08:43)

So.

So I think a lot of the determination to do well was because of my grandad. So he died when I was 16 and the last thing I ever said to him was, I'll make you really proud of me. So I think a lot of it was not wanting to let him down. My parents were supportive and they sort of, you know, have me at home and made sure I did what I need to do. But ultimately it was my dream and it was...

mean bit of a working.

PJ Ellis (09:11)

I mean, what was your granddad, a Royal Marine, did you say?

Lisa Butler (09:13)

Yeah, sorry, I'm feeling really emotional just sort of recalling him and thinking about it. Bryn.

PJ Ellis (09:18)

What was his name?

So, Bryn, right? I'm sure you said Valleys or I've heard it. Were you born in Wales, were you? that, no.

Lisa Butler (09:28)

No, I'm not.

My grandparents are Welsh, but I now live on the border of Wales and I'm like a chameleon, so I'm just picking up, I think, little lintst around the way.

Andy (09:34)

you

PJ Ellis (09:40)

I that. I think it's so important to have that motivation. I never had any grandparents that weren't alive when I was born. I always think what they would thought of me. So that's really resonated with me this morning. So thanks for sharing that.

Andy (09:56)

So take us back to, so you graduated or qualified at Sandhurst, which is awesome. Obviously the world was an interesting place, I'm guessing, at that time. What happened through the rest of your career in the armed forces, Lisa? What did you take away from that, good and bad maybe?

Lisa Butler (10:17)

So I commissioned into the Royal Engineers a cat badge that had never ever been on my radar. When I went to Santos I was going to go back to the military police and then I discovered that I could blow stuff up and I didn't need to be a soldier to do it. And that was really fun.

So I did that for a few years and then I did a recruiting job for a couple of years. And during the recruiting job, there was a real shift in the way that people were talking to me. So whilst I was in the engineer unit, so I was always told I was too nice and too kind and too friendly and too involved and too, too, too, whatever. And when I went into the recruiting job, I was told I was really, really good at working with people. That was where my strength was.

blah blah blah so I thought well I'll leave the engineers and go to the people area but I hated it and it was really funny because actually what I realized is that the whole army was all people and it didn't really matter the issue was that my style of leadership wasn't necessarily didn't really fit the mold of what the engineers needed and wanted at that time

So I did a year in the service and support branch doing accounting and stuff, which was a disaster for everybody concerned. then, what was that? ⁓ man, it was just so boring. So boring.

Andy (11:42)

Nothing to blow up. Nothing to blow up.

PJ Ellis (11:43)

Nothing to blow.

Just balance

sheets.

Lisa Butler (11:51)

Yeah, me and spreadsheets, not a love of mine. So then I went back to the military police and I then at that point was a senior captain. There was a couple of deployments along the way. I initially went to Northern Ireland. I then had been out to Kosovo in Iraq with my engineering troops, which was a huge amount of fun, more blowing up stuff. And then in the military police, I then went to Afghanistan as a liaison officer.

where there's just loads of people around a table and we're the people that are sending the guys out to do those patrols and all of that kind of stuff so as front line as I could possibly be without being on the ground and so I did that that was really fun and

Then I came back, did some really boring staff jobs and then decided that was enough. I was going to leave at that point.

Andy (12:44)

What, what I'm intrigued because Mike, my son is setting himself up for Marines slash engineering engineers. So that's, that's kind of the journey he's interested on. And PJ and I have got a very good friend of the podcast, Ben Williams, who's, who's also kind of an ex ex Marine and having, he came to talk to my son. And whilst I was hoping it would dissuade Sam.

from going in that direction, it just made him want him to do more. In fact, all he said to me afterwards was, I just need to get bigger, Dad. He's been a Jim Bunny ever since, which is a compliment to Ben. But I know through those conversations how challenging that environment has been, but also how rewarding it was for my friend Ben and many of the people I've known who've gone that. just from your perspective, Lee, so what would you say that

that career journey, the first part of your career, let's call it, what did that instill in you that is driving you forward still today?

Lisa Butler (13:46)

So I think there is a sense of duty and service to other people, not necessarily to the military, but just to be involved in something that is bigger than you are. A real determination and a willingness to pursue something that's not easy to get. And my...

biggest thing that I probably, well, there are lots of biggest things, but ⁓ one thing I talk about huge amounts is courage, but not in the, come on lads, we're going over the top kind of way. That's what I always would have thought courage was before I left the army. But since I've left the army, there have been a number of life challenges which have shown me otherwise. So I've kind of had this really lovely

viewpoint of courage from lots and lots of different places but what I realise is that regardless of your rank and your position that people are people are people and everyone is dealing with stuff and courage shows up every day.

A really random thing that I brought from the military, which I had never considered until I left, is I never really considered that men struggle. And that was a really big thing for me, realising that in the not too distant past.

And the other thing I think is just the importance of knowing the people around you, whether your team is your best mate or your family or the people that you work with, but really having the willingness to know who your people are and to buddy buddy with them. So someone has always got your back and you've always got theirs.

PJ Ellis (15:35)

Yeah, I love that. mean, yeah, certainly, certainly right up my street, all this sort of conversation massively. So I think that leads me into, ⁓ so what are you doing now? Then tell us a little bit more about the journey now of late. What does Lisa Butler do now on a day to day and how do you help others?

Lisa Butler (15:52)

So I've been coaching since COVID and that sort of evolved from doing one-to-one coaching with mums, then doing stuff with dads, then realising I don't want to delineate between gender or any of that stuff, I just want to help good-hearted people and that's evolving into more organisational work but essentially I help people to

to be brave, and whether that brave is having a really awkward conversation with somebody at work to say what you really needed to say but it felt horrible to say it, or whether it's just getting through your days because it all feels a bit like treacle. The variations between my clients and the experiences they have are so big, but fundamentally they get courage and clarity and confidence when they're working with me.

I really love helping people find, it sounds corny, but I really love helping people find their magic and I love watching people sparkle and I you're going to ask me about that, so I'm going to jump in.

I think that people do sparkle when they are happy and when they are fulfilled and they are doing the thing that serves them and where they serve others because they are light and they're bright and they're enthusiastic and they get this sparkle in their eye and when they're not doing those things then they're not like that. So that's where that comes from.

PJ Ellis (17:22)

I love that. I saw that sparkle in my son last night. We went to the Royal Shakespeare Company to watch BFG. Absolutely fantastic if you haven't watched it. Beautiful thing. And he wants to get into acting. Reminds me of me as a kid, very socially awkward, very nervous, very sort of lacking in confidence when, you know, looking down on him, although that won't be, that will change very soon because he's going to be taller than me. ⁓

He's got everything, honestly, he really has. He's such the most beautiful soul. And I saw that confidence come out last night, that freedom, that bravery that I think people need. Why do they need bravery now? Why is that so important? You say, you're helping people to be brave, to find that courage, the clarity, the confidence. Is the world on fire? Are we in trouble? Do we need more Lisa Butler's? Why do you feel it's so important to be brave?

Lisa Butler (18:16)

I think if we go through our lives without being brave, we miss the opportunities that were available to us because we're too scared to go for them.

And by being courageous and kind of going, this feels sticky and this feels awkward and this feels like, errr cringy, I'm still going to do it anyway. Like it just opens up doors and it tells us, it tells our bodies and our nervous system and all of us that it's okay. It's okay to be brave. It's okay to make mistakes. It's okay to mess up, but just do it. And what does that feel like? And how great do you feel when you've done it and you realise that you can? How amazing is that?

PJ Ellis (18:33)

Yeah.

I mean, 100%. I've just marked that clip because I'm going to edit that and just have it replaying in my son's bedroom every morning.

Lisa Butler (19:03)

just to add on to that, I also think that there is a requirement for people to be braver these days. there's, the world isn't on fire, but it is a bit of a shit storm. And if there was ever an occasion where we have to be courageous and speak up for things that are wrong and look out for the person next to us and be that person that it's now. So I do think.

that we all have a responsibility to learn how to be courageous and to choose to be that. Sometimes it's the right decision to not step in, but we have to really get clear with what we believe in and what we value. And we have to be willing to fight for that. And I don't mean in an Elon Musk aggressive weapons way, but to...

to really stand up to those things

which are in direct opposition to the things which make us who we are doing what we do.

Andy (19:58)

You mentioned, just a comment you mentioned before Lisa, was about your realisation that men do struggle and we all struggle. And I think at times, you know, I work in a lot of corporate environments, can sometimes spot, or how easy is it to spot that person who's wearing a mask or giving it bit of bravado? How can we spot the person, whoever they are, child, mum, dad, father, sister, whatever it is.

who needs that bit of help. And if you do spot someone who you think needs a bit of help, what would your advice be as to how to best approach someone in that situation without either scaring them off or putting their back up potentially?

Lisa Butler (20:41)

That's a really big question and just to say obviously I'm not a professional in this area but I've had massive massive mental health challenges myself over the past 11 years. I tried to take my own life when I was 14 years old and know stuff has just happened through the years. People who have...

listened. Not the people who just listen, but the people who really listen. Who have noticed that I'm not behaving like I normally do, or there'll be a small detail about something that means that there is a genuine loving curiosity around. I've noticed this. Is everything okay?

and giving that opportunity for an individual to be really heard. I feel like we have a long way to go with, you know that phrase, my door's always open until it's not. And you know when people say they're really well-intentioned, but there's absolutely no intention behind them at all. So I feel like...

Andy (21:39)

Yes.

Lisa Butler (21:54)

People don't want to hear because they're scared of the answer and they don't know how to hold other people's emotion. But actually, no one's asking to be fixed. No one's asking for someone else to take their stuff and make it right. All people are asking for is, can you hear me? Can you hold this space for me to be really human right now?

it could you just sit opposite me with no judgment of where I'm at right now and that that's a really big thing to be able to do for someone but it makes the biggest difference when it's like you can bring anything you need to say and I've got you like I'm here

think people really struggle with that and I don't know whether it is because they have not experienced it themselves and they don't know what that feels like to be held like that or whether there is something about inviting that level of vulnerability or whether there's something about giving that.

one of the things I mean I talk about everyday courage like that is freaking courageous to be able to offer that to someone and to be able to hold it back like that's that's courage that kind of thing ⁓ so you just asked me how would I notice I would notice because I notice

Andy (23:15)

Yeah.

And just to shine a light on what you've said there, I remember watching a clip of Oprah Winfrey on television, must be about a year ago. And she was interviewed and all the people around the world she's interviewed, Stars, celebrities, prime ministers, presidents, you name it. And she made a really interesting comment. She said at the end of all those interviews, everyone said to her, was that okay? And what she really interpreted that

as is, did you hear me? Did my message get out? Did it resonate? Because you're absolutely right. Everybody needs to be heard, but not everybody wants to be heard or is willing to volunteer something about themselves. I think you're absolutely right. it's one of the hardest things I think is to

approach someone to go, are you okay? Because we will naturally get on with our busy lives, shuffle along, look at our shoes or our phone, even worse. And I think it's really something we need to empower our children to do especially.

PJ Ellis (24:31)

Yeah, 100 % mate, I'd agree.

Lisa Butler (24:32)

And maybe that

question in itself is the wrong question. Maybe it's just starting a conversation to allow somebody to be seen. Oh, you noticed me sitting on this bench. Hi. And then we go from there. But I think ultimately it comes down to one, have to be, we've got to notice, two, we've got to...

brave enough to ask and three we've got to be willing to give what we've offered.

PJ Ellis (25:04)

think you're right. I think it's interesting, isn't it? Because I've been looking at this quite a bit, actually, because there's times where I'm a bit I've had a bit of a rough 14 months. Like, you know, we're all on our own journey here and there, aren't we? In relation to loss or grief or whatever that might look like.

I think we live in that I'm fine culture where people will say that quite quickly when you've had that's probably a red flag because if you say I'm fine very quickly you're probably not ⁓ but I really like that sort of ⁓ so you spot someone then that has you've noticed someone you've listened and you've caught that there might not be something right and I'm thinking of someone specific now but I won't say who it is because they listen so they probably know who it is ⁓

But I know that they're not sparkling from the inside at the moment. And you say confidence is an inside job, right? And I think they're not sparkling from the inside because they're in a voice, a voice that we listen to the most throughout the day. Give him a little beat so now he knows it's a he. How do we help someone rebuild that inner voice if it's taken a knock? How would you coach someone into start believing in themselves a little bit more?

Lisa Butler (26:20)

So, over the past 11 years of my journey, I have done loads and loads and loads of different therapeutic interventions and stuff. All I'm left to do is some wacky psychedelics. And then I think I've done pretty much everything. But one of the most powerful things that I have done is actually looking at inner child work. And bear with me on this one if you haven't heard it, but essentially,

PJ Ellis (26:39)

Thank you.

Lisa Butler (26:50)

understanding that so much of the wounding and the hurt that we carry around with us which forms those voices is not the adult version of us, it is a much much younger version of us and asking ourselves the question of when was the first time I felt like this? What do I remember about this feeling? What do I remember about this voice? Whose voice is that? How old was I?

and then asking yourself whether you even believe what you're being told. And quite often, if you can tune into, I had a moment when I first discovered this where I was like, hang on a minute, that's my bloody stepdad. That's not me. I don't even like him. Like, hang on a second.

And I remember being so outraged that this belief that I've been carrying around with me for such a long time wasn't even my belief, it was someone else's. Then actually there's a freedom in there of what do you want to do with that? You can choose to keep it, you can choose to learn from it, you can choose to... Whatever you want, you can choose.

but you have to be willing to go there and ask the questions that get you to the root of it. Because there's no point going, I'm going on a confidence course and it's all fantastic because it will come back because you haven't got to the root of why you feel like that in the first place. So I found that to be really, powerful. And then recently somebody's talked to me about power personas and quite often, and I am really guilty of this, is when I've done this, then I'll feel that.

rather than what would it feel like if I was doing that already and what can I do to show up like that now even if it's just a 1 % shift what would that be and that's been quite interesting as well. So yeah, those two things I think are really helpful.

Andy (28:44)

Can

you bring that alive a little bit for the listeners, Lisa? Obviously not asking you to disclose any confidentialities, but maybe can you take us to a situation or a person or a session where you've helped someone or been helped yourself to kind of make that transition?

Lisa Butler (29:01)

So, okay, so a really, really big one that I carried around with me has been that I'm not good enough. That came from a number of things, but mostly I distinctly remember getting clutching my GCSE results and being told by someone quite unhelpfully.

What do you mean you haven't got any A's? Well that's not good enough. You'll never be good enough for X unless you've got an A. And I remember being devastated because I had tried really hard. That was my best effort that I had in my hand and I was being told it was not good enough and therefore the message I took was I am not good enough.

And all the way through my military career, I've always, always had a real hang up about being a non-graduate. And I found learning difficult. What I have since learned is I don't find learning difficult when I am learning about something that absolutely lights me up and something that I find fascinating. So.

when I understood that this you're not good enough wasn't me it was this voice I could then kind of separate out well actually is it true that I am not good enough because I don't have an A? Well no. So what is true you know in that scenario if not personally but looking at that individual who

did those exam results and wanted to achieve XYZ, that individual then worked hard, talked to the right people, networked, did what they needed to do, they focused on where they wanted to go and they took the steps they needed in order to become successful. When it got really, really hard, they got their head down and they carried on learning. Okay, is it still true that that person's not good enough?

to become XYZ? Well no, not at all, they're completely good enough. In fact, they're beyond good enough, they're brilliant. ⁓ so that belief that I've got, do I still believe it? Absolutely not.

Andy (31:05)

If you could go back to that 16 year old self and just imagine you're sat in front of her now and she asked you for some advice, what advice would you give her today then?

Lisa Butler (31:16)

dear, this could be a long bit. No,

I think I would literally get her face in my hands and I would be like...

just almost like get a mirror and have her in a mirror, in front of a mirror and say, can you see this human form of the bag of potential right in front of me now? Like everything that you choose and want to do is within you and you can absolutely do the things you set your mind to. And there will be people who tell you you're not good enough and there will be people that try and take you off it, but you know your values, you know your direction, you know what you want, you know who you are and you know...

who you wanna be in this world. Okay, steps. What steps do you need to take to get to that? For me, understanding your value and values are really, really important to be able to make forward momentum. And so a really big piece of advice I would give her then would be, what are your values? Like know your values, know them so they are...

like almost like a Gandalf stick. Like everybody needs a Gandalf stick. Literally in the Gandalf stick is all your values and your beliefs and all of those golden threads that we have as human beings, all the things that are true for us. What are the themes about you that you bring with you? Like all of that stuff goes in your Gandalf stick, you stick it in the ground and if there's ever a moment where you're like, I'm not sure where to go with this.

Or someone tries to knock you off course or whatever, it's like you put it in the ground, you do your wise wisdom, hmm, tune into the Gandalf. And then it's like, no, that doesn't actually sit with who I am or what I believe in, so I'm not gonna do that, but this is what I'm gonna do instead. Or, yeah, that feels good, I'm gonna go for that. Get a Gandalf stick in short. ⁓

PJ Ellis (33:10)

Yeah, I wonder what

my wife will feel like when I turn up later dressed as Gandalf. I mean, to be fair, yeah, I've gone too far there, haven't I, in my mind. I thought that was absolutely stunning. Thank you. mean, I was taking myself back to being 14, 16 then, and that advice would have been so lovely and helpful. It basically ends up being exactly what I see behind you, doesn't it? Those two words, what do they say behind you?

Lisa Butler (33:15)

I mean, the fancy dress is optional.

Thank

Be you, be yourself.

PJ Ellis (33:39)

There we go. I mean, we're the best in the world at being ourselves, aren't we? Andy always says that to me. And I love that comment. ⁓ You've said, I mean, I get an impression there that it's a bit about identity as well. I struggled with identity and you're talking about that can actually be chosen instead of inherited. So rather than listen to that person or that thing that's told you or done something to before and inherit that behaviour and that personality, actually you can choose to be...

who you are based on values, your Gandalf stick, whatever it might be. This is a personal journey of mine. I'd love you to fix it. We haven't got all day, but give me some sort of tips, I suppose, around boundaries. How important are boundaries when you're trying to choose who you are to stay mentally well, you know, for want of a better word, because I struggle with that. I've struggled for a while on boundaries. Does that play a part in the stuff that you do, Lisa?

Lisa Butler (34:36)

It does. So let me ask you a question. The boundaries that you recognise as maybe slightly porous, what impact does that have on you by not having them?

PJ Ellis (34:49)

Well, yeah, I mean, I've locked the doors, but every yes is a no to something else. And usually it's a no to my peace, my tranquillity, my family, my home, my rest. So yeah, basically I am very porous in that area. I'll say yes, yes, yes. And it's always a hard no to things that bring me peace. And that's where I go wrong sometimes.

Lisa Butler (35:14)

And then, okay, so it's a hard note of things that bring you peace and then what happens? So you keep on saying yes to the stuff that isn't really your thing.

PJ Ellis (35:23)

Well, it comes back to what

you said there. doesn't, I say things to things that don't light me up, that don't light me up, that don't pay me, that don't, you know, take my time. And I just burn out. I've probably burnt out, you know, probably four or five times in the last 10 years. And, you know, not to the point where I've been hospitalized, but you just feel it, don't you? You just literally feel empty running on, you know, fumes. And that just then sort of brings.

Well, for me, I became a different person, know, certainly with my family. So the irony was I wanted to lean into my family, you know, have non-negotiables to spend more time with my family. And I was saying yes to things that was making me even worse within that space that I wanted to be in. If that makes sense, you know, the dad that isn't really present is there, but he's on his laptop. ⁓ So, yeah, that's, you know, I wish I had better boundaries. I'm getting better, but they must, they must. I mean, I'm not putting words into your mouth, but they must play a very important part in staying mentally well, right?

I would have thought.

Lisa Butler (36:20)

I did not know that there was a thing called boundaries until I was on a retreat following the birth of my little boy. He was about 18 months old and I went on this retreat and I was not in a good place mentally at all. And the facilitator stood there and she was talking about boundaries and I was like, what is she talking about?

I just didn't have any comprehension that this was a thing and she was so...

embodied in what she was saying. Like it was almost like she had this invisible force field around her, a really good one, but when she said no or when she said yes, like she was living it, it was just resonating from her body. And I remember being utterly fascinated by her. And then a series of events later, and then I find myself on this other retreat, there was a lot of retreats at this point, was, ⁓ but realizing

PJ Ellis (37:12)

Hahaha! ⁓

Lisa Butler (37:18)

that so much of what I had achieved, so many of the things that I had valued were not my values and they were not for me. So joining the military was not for me, it was for my grandad. Staying in the military, even when I knew it in my heart that it wasn't for me, I stayed because I didn't want to let him down. And then I had this moment of like looking at the values I've been living through with the military and one of them was selfless commitment. And I remember sitting in this room going, I don't even

believe in that. Like this is ridiculous and realised that I had become a doormat because being selfless and committed meant that I was giving everybody everything of me and that's not what that means and so I was like I'd choose a different version of what I've been told.

all of these years, I've lived all of the last 20 years believing this, but actually this is now my version of these values. And I think realising that, I don't know, like integrity will mean one thing to you and one thing to me.

And there are a hundred different versions of the same thing, but we have to understand what is my version of that? What does that look like? What does it feel like? And how will I know in my brain and in my body if I'm not honouring myself by these things that I've said I really believe in?

PJ Ellis (38:43)

I feel all that. I genuinely do.

Andy (38:46)

So how do we find you today then Lisa? So you're in a place where the armed forces, you were doing it for the people. How are you today? Where are you today on your journey?

Lisa Butler (38:58)

So I'm in this pivot point actually, where I am on the cliff edge of being brave for myself.

You said at the beginning, how can you have been in the army for 18 years and is that a lack of confidence? And yes, I do. work on my own and I sometimes really question, is this the right thing? Am I doing the right thing? Then I tune back into what it is and I'm like, yeah, this is definitely the right thing. And then I get down to the technical aspects of doing it and I'm like, it's too much. ⁓ I'm not doing the right thing. But

I am creating, I've got my one-to-one coaching, I'm doing work with organisations, I did a couple of really cool workshops with an education trust recently and we were talking about behavioural styles and we're talking about better cohesion and communication but this was all done with giant red Ferraris and various other random things, no boring workshops when it comes to working with me.

And what I'm really getting into is I want to create an online community called The Courage Collective.

PJ Ellis (40:02)

Thank

Lisa Butler (40:08)

And this is where my big brave thing comes. Going to companies and stuff feels much easier than doing this thing. But this online community is full of good hearted people who want to make impact in the world with integrity and with compassion. And they come in there and we set goals together and we celebrate each other's successes, like even the really small steps.

like every marathon has a million steps, right? So it's trying to help people to create that momentum and realize that they're not alone when they're doing these leadership journeys, regardless of what level of leadership they're at. And then within there, you can do group coaching. And the thing about it is I want coaching to be accessible to as many people as I can. And at the moment, you know, one to one coaching, as you'll know, is really expensive. And but people don't necessarily have the resources for that. And nor does

one-to-one coaching give you community and I think community is super, super important. So those are all the things that are sort of bubbling away in the background and I'm just putting it all together ready for my courageous launch.

Andy (41:14)

Okay. Well, PJ and I have a friend who'll be listening to this, who does a lot of exec coaching, one-to-one coaching. And when she hears this episode, she will definitely, guarantee, be reaching out to you. Cause I think having some conversations with her, you do realize how difficult coaching can be. You know, cause coaches really get coached, you know, and it can become a lonely place. let's go to, let's hear about this launch then. So you're on the cliff edge to being, was it brave or courageous?

What's it gonna take to make this bloody awesome for you?

Lisa Butler (41:47)

Well, what it takes is a little bit of accountability. I think that box is well and truly ticked now. I think what it takes is asking.

those little voices that you're talking about, those mind chatters that come up, is asking myself if that's helpful or not. And those things are there to keep me safe. Those are past version of me, but future version of me is embracing those opportunities and doing all of the things that I said previously. So it's...

One, there's an identity piece and who do I want to be, where do I want to go? And then two, there is a sustainable, achievable, realistic plan and not a, okay, we're going to do 743 things by 12 o'clock and I'm going to make some chicken soup for lunch. That's the bit. I know that I am one of those people who is like, I am an ideas monster.

and then I get overwhelmed with all of it. So it's creating sustainability. That's the key.

Andy (42:50)

Okay, all right. Well, first off, Lisa, hats off to you. This is, we haven't had this sort of conversation before. It feels like we've been sat in the back of a little coffee shop, three mates in a corner, backs to the world, just chatting openly. So thank you for that, first off. And I guess my final question is, is there anything we should have asked you about that we haven't?

Lisa Butler (43:13)

You didn't ask me about fat married three kids in a Labrador.

Okay, that married three kids in Labrador is essentially what one of my bosses said to me in Iraq in my mid-year appraisal three months into the tour and I'd gone in and I asked him, where do you see me in five years time? And that was his answer. And I looked at him.

I said, I think this interview is finished. Thank you for your time. I stood up and saluted him and I walked out. And I was like, what a knob. just, I came out and told loads of my seniors about that and they were absolutely horrified that I had accepted that as feedback and that I'd done nothing.

But I just kind of like patted it down and was like, it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter. And I wrote this post and said all my takeaways from it. But I think the biggest takeaway from that is that we don't have to ever take that kind of demeaning language from anybody, whether that is language, behavior, touch or whatever, that we have to get to a point where we are...

for us about our own agency and about our value so that we can stand there in those moments and say, I beg your pardon and really come back to people. And for young people, my daughter's 15 and nearly 15. And I just think.

If she can be 22, 23 and if someone says something like that to her and she can in her body know that that is absolutely not acceptable and give an appropriate response, all is well with the world. Like we've got to teach our kids how to respond appropriately with fury and appropriate anger without being rude.

Andy (45:14)

Great answer.

PJ Ellis (45:15)

Wow, I mean, there's no better way to finish a pod than that. What we call in the broadcasting world, a hard end. That was lovely. Thank you, Lisa. We always end with a few takeaways and you probably think, and all those people that used to speak to opera probably thought the same. Have I said anything there of value? I'll tell you what, you have. And these are the little points I've taken and there'll no doubt be plenty more. Dreams start with tea and ginger biscuits. Importance of having that road track.

in your mind. Blow things up if you can. ⁓ Courage shows up every day. There's a real importance of knowing who your people are. Help people to be brave. Be fierce in your own agency. We miss opportunities if we are not brave. Speak up about things that are wrong. Listen and then really, really listen. Look for the things that light you up. Understand your values and value. And everyone needs a Gandalf stick.

Andy (46:13)

Yes.

Mom shall pass.

PJ Ellis (46:14)

There we go.

There we go. Lisa Butler. Honestly, I could have listened to you all day. I genuinely feel like I've got a new mate. And certainly we've had a good chat in the coffee shop. Thank you so much. I cannot wait to not only see the Courage community start but also to continue seeing you make your granddad Bryn very proud. Thank you, Lisa. I really appreciate it.

Lisa Butler (46:39)

Thank you guys, I really appreciate your time. Thank you so much.