Hello and welcome to this bonus episode of America A History Recorded straight after our recently published episode, what is the Mayflower?

I'm joined now by the guest from that episode, Peter Mancall, to discuss this a little bit more.

Peter, thank you so much for hanging on.

It's my pleasure.

I look forward to this part of the conversation.

Of course.

And you know, my apologies, I think the intonation of your surname has been different every time I've said it.

Um, I, I will get it right once, I promise.

No worries.

So, just picking up a couple of things that we, we touched on in, in the main episode, we mentioned Native Americans.

I mean, we can't really talk about, you know, settling in in the US without that, but I'd like you to just sort of maybe give a very brief overview on, on, on if any Native American communities were displaced or har.

The Mayflower pilgrims.

It's an interesting question.

So the answer is, I mentioned in the main episode that there had been an epidemic that went from 1616 or so to 1619, a devastating epidemic.

And in some towns it wiped out 90% of the native peoples who were there.

Right.

It was probably bacterial infection brought over by rats from Europe that stowed away on ship.

We don't really know what it is, but there are multiple reports of it.

Right.

So it was awful what happened.

So it depends on how you ask that question.

So there's no doubt that the English who colonized eastern North America displaced many thousands of native peoples.

And that displacement begins in the 17th century.

There's not a lot of displacement earlier.

The English that had come up earlier, gone to places like Carolina, ended up failing really, so they didn't really do much.

They might have spread disease, but we're not sure.

But so when the English arrive in Patuxet, this little town where Plymouth is now, it's mostly depopulated.

Right.

So one could argue, well, they went to a place where their initial harm to people was minimal.

And one sign of that would be that in 1621 there is this three day feast that Bradford talks about which becomes the origins of the modern holiday of Thanksgiving.

That is, people are getting along well enough.

And so I think there's some truth to that.

Relations certainly break down by the 1630s, and the Pilgrims, along with the larger body of Puritans, participate in this event called the Pequot War.

And the Pequot War contains, in William Bradford's own words, a description of one of the most horrific war crimes in American history, where the English, with some Narragansett allies surround a Pequot village, the banks of the mystic river, set it on fire, and shoot the people as they come out.

Now, it's very hard to read that.

And these are the words of the English.

These are not Wampanoags who have left this record.

This is the English record of it.

It's very hard to read that and say, oh, things went well in this area.

So I think the proper thing to say is there wasn't much violence at first, and then eventually there was violence.

Yeah, of course.

Well, I think there's a whole episode in discussing that conflict, for sure.

But thinking about Plymouth Rock especially, I just have to ask.

I've heard that Plymouth Rock in real life is actually quite underwhelming.

So I just.

I wonder if you've been.

And if it lived up to your expectations.

I have been to Plymouth now.

It may be displayed differently now than it was when I was there.

I probably haven't been there for maybe 10 years.

I forget the last time I was in Plymouth.

So basically, the Rock.

The Rock.

When I was there, my memory sort of, you know, you're.

It's.

It's like it's in a cage.

You're, like, looking down on it.

It's not very big.

And the reason it's protected is because there was a long tradition of people coming and chipping off pieces of it.

So Plymouth Rock is a metaphor more than a reality that, you know, the bay is.

You know, it's difficult for ships to navigate, you know, into there, but Plymouth has a harbor.

It's one of the reasons that Champlain took note of it when he went by in 1605 or whatever year it was.

Yeah.

But Plymouth Rock itself, I think, is an idea more than.

Let's put this an impressive idea, not an impressive reality.

That's good to know.

Good to know.

Yeah.

I won't make a. I won't make a point of having a trip out there, then if ever I'm in the Northeast again.

I did just want to finally ask, because we have touched on a bit in the main episode about how, I guess, sort of maybe a little bit underwhelming the.

The.

The Mayflower voyage itself was.

Do you think there are any other sort of voyages that get a little bit kind of unfairly overlooked because we're all so fixated on the Mayflower?

Well, a lot gets overlooked, but, I mean, you know, specific voyages.

That's a hard sort of contribution.

So I. I had just written this long book about North America from around the year 1000 to the year 1680.

And one of the points I try to make is that there's a struggle for this continent of who's going to control North America.

And the popular imagination fixes on certain things.

The popular American imagination fixes on the lost colonists of Roanoke.

Right.

The tragic loss of these people.

It focuses on the struggles of early Jamestown, early Virginia.

It focuses on the start of enslavement of Africans.

1619.

On the mainland, slavery existed elsewhere earlier, but it focuses on in Virginia, the birth of what's called self government becomes the House of Burgesses.

Right?

The Mayflower is the ship that.

The name is probably the most famous name of a ship in America.

I don't know, till the Titanic.

I mean, I don't even know a ship more famous than the Mayflower.

I mean, Henry Hudson, you know, goes over in the Half moon and discovers his mind, you know, New York, New Netherlands, you know, then comes back in a ship called the Discovery, ends up, you know, getting a mutiny against him.

I wrote about a book about that guy also.

But these ships aren't famous.

You know, people know the names of the ships.

You know, if you're an expert on Virginia, you might know the names of the ships.

But I mean, the Mayflower has this singular place.

And so the.

The problem of that, if there's a historical problem, is that when you focus on one thing, you crowd out others.

And so given that this is by, in any measure, not the most important thing in American history, you know, it has gotten a real boost in the culture because people remember the name of the ship.

So, you know, we've forgotten.

Well, we always forget much more about the past than we remember.

But.

So it's, you know, it's an interesting sort of question, focus on the Mayflower.

What are we forgetting?

But I think folks in the Mayflower still tells us a human story and allows us a focal point into this one piece of a much larger narrative.

Yeah, yeah, no, that's a great point.

And, you know, on that note, I think we've got.

Well, I mean, you've given me, like, a whole heapload of other ideas now that we need to talk about in future episodes.

So thank you for keeping me busy and for joining me on this episode as well.

And for the main podcast, it's been a real pleasure, Peter.

Thank you, Liam.

It's been a pleasure for me, too.

Yeah, thank you.

And again, for anyone listening, we're going to put links to everything we've discussed in the show notes, so remember to check those out and rate review and follow the podcast as well.

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But thank you all so much for listening.

Do go and check out the main episode right now.

It's just below this one on the feed.

And goodbye.