Andy Coulson: [0:00:17] Welcome back to Crisis What Crisis, the podcast that aims to guide you towards a more resilient life and whatever it might throw at you. If this is your first time with us, please do hit subscribe wherever you're watching or listening, and please do leave us a review. It really helps make sure that these, I hope, useful conversations are shared as widely as possible.

Today's guest is the ultimate comeback kid. A troubled teen turned visionary entrepreneur, and also an original star of Dragon's Den. After a tough start, including school struggles, a stint in a young offender's prison, and a personal crisis that left him at rock bottom, Simon Woodruff transformed adversity into opportunity.

From designing stages for legends like Rod Stewart and Stevie Wonder to risking it all on a revolutionary idea. Simon founded YO! Sushi in 1997, and against the odds his genius conveyor belt based restaurants took off and redefined how we dine.

Today, having sold YO! Sushi and opened thirty sites of his Japanese hotel brand YOTEL, he's not just a business success, but a true motivational force of nature, spreading the word that resilience and reinvention can lead to extraordinary achievements.

We're very lucky to have him with us, and Simon, welcome to Crisis, What Crisis.

Simon Woodroffe: [0:01:36] Well, what a good introduction. I'm not sure about the genius bit, but I liked your words.

Andy Coulson: [0:01:42] Well, we'll see about that as we go through the story.

Simon, thanks so much for joining us today. You're speaking to us from Thailand, where I think you now spend half the year. Is that right?

Simon Woodroffe: [0:01:55] Yes, probably more than that. I've always lived around the world in different places. I was born in England, but my formative years from the age of about 2 till 6, I was in Singapore, old Singapore, which is a bit like sort of modern Thailand now.

I never thought I'd live in Thailand. It always seemed a bit sort of seedy to me, and I'm not sure about it. And actually I started coming out here for the winters, and I don't want to get too euphoric about it, but it's a wonderful place, and it's a wonderful culture, and there are fabulous people here, and it feels familiar to me. And people say, “Why do you live out there?” And I say, “Well, I wake up every morning, and I feel happy.” There's not much better argument than that in life.

Andy Coulson: [0:02:46] That's the answer, isn't it? I mean, that is the answer. To wake up feeling happy.

Simon Woodroffe: [0:02:56] I think you hear a lot of talk about people moving out of the UK and going to other places, and it is possible now in this new world. But I think it's very difficult for people, they have a lot of connections and university friends and all of that, so yes, it's possible.

Andy Coulson: [0:03:13] I mentioned in the intro that you sold your interests in YO! Sushi and YOTELs, but you stay very much connected to the businesses, don't you? You continue as an ambassador really.

Not always the case that a founder will stay so sort of emotionally attached to a business after they've sold it. But that's how it's worked out for you.

Simon Woodroffe: [0:03:38] Yes, I still feel connected. I don't think that YO! Sushi or YOTEL would agree with you entirely, and they get on and do a very, very good job themselves and I don't get calls saying, “What should we do here?” that's for sure.

But because I still have an interest in it, I get an income. I did a royalty deal, which is very unusual in this world, and obviously I was in the music business for a while and that's what they do. But yes, I get an income every year from it.

Andy Coulson: [0:04:09] So you retained the brand essentially?

Simon Woodroffe: [0:04:12] I own the overall brand, so I can go off and do other things and there's things in the pipeline, a bit like Virgin have done. But they own their own pieces and they're absolutely free to do what they want.

And a good job they do too. They've just sold- YO! Sushi was sold back to the Japanese and to a very, very big Japanese company last year. So it was a bit like, yes, incredible. Incredible. I’d almost never dreamed of it.

And YOTEL has just opened in Tokyo. So you know, that's like ice-cream to the Eskimos, isn't it?

Andy Coulson: [0:04:50] Yes, but lovely for you, I imagine. A lovely sort of- almost closing of a circle there.

Simon Woodroffe: [0:04:58] Yes, pretty satisfying to see that happen. But, you know, beyond my wildest dreams I have to tell you, not planned.

Andy Coulson: [0:05:07] Well, let's talk about that. Let's talk about the road to YO! Sushi and your other successes and start at the beginning, if that's okay.

We touched on it there. You were born in Oxfordshire, the son of an army officer, those formative years in Singapore. You've described your family as the poor relations. I'm going to put it unsubtly, for which apologies, but sort of, you know, posh, but not loaded. Is that..?

Simon Woodroffe: [0:05:33] That's for sure.

Andy Coulson: [0:05:34] Is that fair?

Simon Woodroffe: [0:05:36] My father was a senior army officer. He was a brigadier, but they didn't get paid very well in those days. And they sent us to private school, so that's where all the money went.

My mum had come from a sort of semi-aristo thing. And so there were a lot of relations who were a lot better off than us. And I did sort of look around and think I wouldn't mind being a bit more like one of them. So I did feel a bit of a poor relation, but maybe that was the- do you need a chip in the shoulder? I always say a bit of grit in the oyster, and I think that probably got into my psyche.

Andy Coulson: [0:06:13] Yes. Those early years, this is a time of course in the ‘50s, when emotions were not discussed perhaps in the way that they are now. In fact, I don't think there's a perhaps about it, they weren't discussed in the way that they are now.

And you were a child with strong emotions. How did how did that manifest in the in the very sort of earlier years of your life?

Simon Woodroffe: [0:06:41] You know, it was it was a struggle, my early days. I had a pretty emotional mother and a very, very sort of tough father. Charming, but very tough. And nothing was talked about. So I felt very lost. I had I had a brother who was very gregarious and you know, when I look back on that childhood, I don't- it wasn't easy, it was lonely.

You know, it was then- and I went to English- listen, I’m over it now, I'm very happily over it, but it was it was not easy. And I think it probably gave me the impetus to do an awful lot of things.

I went to a boarding school and I was 7, and all sorts of things stuff went down there.

Andy Coulson: [0:07:32] You say all sorts of things. In terms of the-

Simon Woodroffe: [0:07:38] I've actually written about it and it will come out in due course. But the headmaster there liked to have a fiddle around, he really did. So I had all that, you know, what's called abuse now. So so that sort of put me on a track of not being quite sure where I stood with the opposite sex and all of that stuff. You know, it was a confusing it was a confusing time.

My nickname, incredible when I think back at it, but my nickname at prep school- there was a comic in those days called The Beano and one of the characters was- not Desperate Dan, Dennis the Menace. His best mate was Lord Snooty, and I was called Lord Snooty. What must I have been like?

But my father was a bit like that, he was very sort of you know, a big character, big and loud, and I thought that's how you made friends and things. So I got that wrong, and that took a bit of time to sort that one out.

But no, it was- um but no I don't think it was easy, my childhood. It wasn't desperate, we weren’t in desperate straits, but when I looked back it was difficult. And as I say it put a bit of grit in the oyster and I wanted things to be different. And it took me a long time to figure out how to do that. But I think to do anything difficult in this world-

Look, if everything is going swimmingly, you have a great social life, you have a- you can earn a living, things go good, why would you want to go off and do something difficult, like become an entrepreneur? You do it because there's some drive, something inside.

So I always say to people, you know, “If you're not feeling that great about the world, use that to your advantage.”

Andy Coulson: [0:09:27] Very good. I'm sorry to hear that your- obviously you've written previously, talked previously about some of the difficulties in your childhood, but not to the extent that you just described there.

I mean, having now kind of properly explored it, written it, how was that? Have you found that to be kind of emotionally a release for you? It must have been a pretty difficult endeavour, I would have thought.

Simon Woodroffe: [0:09:59] I think that part of it I got over a long time ago, but I'll tell you what. Writing an autobiography which is, you know, it's not going to be out for another year or so, but writing an autobiography, I really enjoyed it. I never got any of that stuff that writers get, you've got to discipline yourself to do so many hours. I just enjoyed doing it.

And by the time I'd finished- I think I'd always thought that my life was difficult. I mean, life is difficult as we all know, but I always thought my life was difficult. And actually, after I wrote the book my brain has reinvented it and I think I've had a rollicking, incredible life, and it feels good. When I wake up in the morning, that's the sort of vision I see through my eyes, is it's been a great life and all the hard times have sort of disappeared.

So it has been a very good cathartic experience in that sense, yes it has.

Andy Coulson: [0:11:00] And given you a total sense of perspective of the entirety of your life so far. Are the darker bits- when you imagine it, you're fundamentally a creative individual. When you imagine your life, when you picture your life, is it that the darker bits remain dark or do you still see them kind of vividly? And how do they compare to the successes?

Simon Woodroffe: [0:11:30] Now they're a good story. I'll tell you what resonated with me, is that line that to be a great blues singer you have to have suffered the blues. And I think it is part- one of the great realisations of life is that it's difficult. And it's only when you really, really realise that that's just normal that you stop complaining and make the best of it.

And that took me a while to get that particular bit, and then it's the question of just putting one foot in front of the other and trying to do- I say just, it's not just, it's complicated being a human being.

But I suppose where I've got to, and the reason I'm on with you today and all of that, is that you can talk about business and how to raise money and how to do AI and all of these things. But there's a million people and everybody has got a different way of doing it, but I think the fundamentals remain the same. That to do something difficult in this world, you've got to get your- in my ‘60s vernacular, you've got to get your head in the right place.

And that's really- if you can be the person that you dream of being or want to be, or if you can have that vision and turn into somebody that you like, and that other people like and want to work with, you know, the world is your oyster. That's the real thing. The things that have held me back in life, mostly have been me.

Andy Coulson: [0:13:05] Let's talk about another one of those difficult periods for you. When you're a teenager, this is the sort of late ‘60s, ‘70s, and you made full use of what was on offer for a teenager, and a young man at that time, if I can put it that way, I think is how you've described it. And it led to an arrest when you were 17. And then, I have to say, even from this distance, remarkably a stint in prison. It seems that you were absolutely used as an example to others. You might say that's what prison is there for.

Simon Woodroffe: [0:13:41] That was said at the time, but again it's one of those things you get over. I was arrested for selling some drugs to some friends, basically. I wasn't a very good drug dealer, but I suppose there was an entrepreneurial bit to it.

I remember this was a real hippy dippy Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club band, I was a full-on hippy. Not in a sort of green rice- what's the word, green rice? Whatever the word, brown rice. Not in a brown rice kind of way, but in a sort of fashionable way. And it was fun, it was a really great fun thing, we thought we were changing the world. I mean, actually we didn't, we messed up a whole lot of things, my generation.

I think ultimately it was part of this enormous social change that we've gone through in the last fifty years and it's now changed. So I think we did good, my generation. But yes, that's what I did, I sold drugs and- very, very small time. And you know, we were trying to be a force for good in that respect.

But I went to North Sea Camp, which was a detention centre. It's actually where Jeffrey Archer went. It was an open prison. I met him once, I couldn't think of what to say. He’s a nice guy actually, but he was in those days quite an intimidating character. I said, “You and I have got something in common.” He said, “What would that be?” I said, “I was in North Sea Camp.” And there was this very long pause, and he said, “Not a lot of people say that to me at cocktail parties.” So I thought that was pretty quick at him.

Andy Coulson: [0:15:23] We have that thing in common because I was, I was also in a prison that Jeffrey Archer was once in, because he also spent some time in a prison called Hollesley Bay in Suffolk, which is where I ended up. And his legend still lives on.

Simon Woodroffe: [0:15:38] Can I ask you, am I allowed to ask you what your experience was?

Andy Coulson: [0:15:43] Of course yes, this is a conversation. Well my experience was just under five months, and two months of it in a high security prison Belmarsh, and then the rest of it at Hollesley Bay. And the open prison was a damn sight more interesting than the- and less, how shall I put it, unpleasant than Belmarsh.

But you went straight to an open prison or was there a journey?

Simon Woodroffe: [0:16:14] It was an open prison. I was, I was 17 when I was convicted, 18 when I went in, and I spent- I got three months and I was actually in eight weeks. It sounds a very, very short time, but eight weeks is-

Andy Coulson: [0:16:28] Long enough.

Simon Woodroffe: [0:16:27] Is like a term at school, and it scared the hell out of me. And you know, actually, and I think Jeffrey Archer said then, if it wasn't for the people it wouldn't have been quite such a bad place. You know, it was the other people, there were some very, very dysfunctional people in there. There but for the grace of God would have gone any of us if you'd had their background, that's what I came out thinking.

And also just locking up those people like that, you know, is not the economic solution, but we could get into the political side of that. But it's not the economic solution, it's not good for them. Turning them around is the answer. But there's enormous change happening in the prison system at the moment which is very, very exciting and it's something I'm interested in.

Andy Coulson: [0:17:12] As am I. James Timpson, who is an entrepreneur really, although was his father's business that he ran. Do you know James?

Simon Woodroffe: [0:17:21] I've met them both over the years and yes, I think he's doing a pretty amazing thing. There's 150 different NGOs, non-government people, who are actually doing things in prison, but actually the way to do it is to do it through central government.

But I think it will change. There are some very good examples around the world, both in America, there’s one in Pennsylvania which is getting incredible results treating people with respect. And obviously there are some very bad people who have to get locked up for the rest of their lives. But most of them, as I say, if there but for the grace of God would have gone any of us if you had had their backgrounds. And turning people around is a great economic move for the country because it means they don't come back in again.

Andy Coulson: [0:18:05] Exactly, it's all about the civil society.

So as an entrepreneur, if there was one thing that you- if you were made Prisons Minister as James Timpson is now, you were made Prisons Minister for a day, if there was one thing that you would do, what would it be?

Simon Woodroffe: [0:18:23] Build the model prison. You know, they've tried it and they spent so much money on building this thing for young kids. I mean, just ridiculous. So what you need to do is get me or an entrepreneur and say, “Here's so much money, go and build a model prison, an example of excellence.” And then spend the next five years putting people through it, or even a very, very small one, and show what the numbers do, improve the whole thing.

Build examples of excellence and then you get everybody on side. More talking shops about- more talking about doing this and doing that. You've got to build an example that works. And obviously, Scandinavia has some very, very good examples. As I say, this one in America does as well. That's what I would do.

Andy Coulson: [0:19:10] Yes. One of the pleasing things about this podcast is that it's been- we're in partnership with the Ministry of Justice and it's now available in a number of prisons and is being rolled out across more over the course of this year.

So there's a good chance that there will be someone listening to this whilst sat in a cell, having perhaps made a mistake, not dissimilar to yours, wondering what's going to happen next in their lives. What's the one thing that you would say to them right now?

Simon Woodroffe: [0:19:42] Hello, you guys. There's hope ahead. If I can do it, you can. Keep going.

Andy Coulson: [0:19:49] Terrific. Post-prison your life led to a very sort of glamorous world. It led to showbiz, it led to you designing stages for Stevie Wonder, Rod Stewart and others. You designed the stage for Live Aid, I think, didn't you? One of the most sort of iconic moments of the ‘80s.

Simon Woodroffe: [0:20:11] To be honest, it was my studio. Jeremy my partner did all of that. So yes, but we were involved in that. That was a big sort of cultural moment in time.

Yes, I came home from that prison and I stayed at my mum's house for about three months, I had absolutely no idea what to do. My dad had split, he'd gone off, he'd got divorced, he'd gone up to London, he wasn't much help.

I actually bought a copy of the stage newspaper in our local newsagent and in the back it had a section called Staff Wanted Professional. I ended up getting a job for 10 shillings a day, 50p a day in those days, working at the Little Theatre Club in St Martin's Lane and doing the lights and the stage management and watching the people come in and pay their money. And I absolutely got hooked on what you call show business. Soon after that I went to work at Richmond Theatre and I learned lighting and stagecraft, you know, your stage left from your stage right in those days. Rock and roll came along and you know, suddenly you're an expert.

The first show- I got a job with the first of all the lighting companies out there and the first job I ever got was a group called Jethro Tull. I remember flying into the Pallazzo, you know 15,000 people in Italy. It was wild. They were early days. And then, you know, doing a spotlight for Rod Stewart and the Faces and the Stones and all sorts. It was a burgeoning world.

And of course in those days there was show business and rock and roll and never the twain should meet. Having been in theatre I used to tell them- when I got my chance with the stars, “We should do a big, big rock show, you know, a big spectacular show.” “No, no, no. No, this is rock and roll.” And of course in a few years I got my break, with Rod Stewart actually, and he wanted a big white stage and nobody else knew how to do it. I'd driven the theatre van at Richmond Theatre so I knew where to get the drapes. I’d actually- my dad used to take us sailing in Holland for our holidays and I got really into boats, and I learned how to do scale drawing. And so I did a scale drawing for him of what the stage could look like and he said, “Yes, if it will travel let's do it.” And the next thing we know we're in rehearsals and he says, “Yes, it's just what I wanted.”

I remember going to a dinner party and people said, “What do you do?” I said, “I'm a stage designer, set designer,” and you know, it just- that was happenstance that happened and it all went off from there. And you know, then people really wanted them and we knew how to get those things built. And of course it was early- it was difficult because they had to tour around the world.

Andy Coulson: [0:22:56] Tell us a bit about how you approached that challenge. I mean, you were a teenager in prison. Even now it seems ridiculous that they put you there, but having been there what impact did that have on your personality? And how did you- you're giving us-obviously because we’re recording a podcast you're giving us a very heavily squeezed, truncated version of what I'm sure was a hell of a time and a difficult time for you. But just give us a sense of how you approached-

What impact did prison have on your personality, number one? And with that, whatever that was, how did you carry yourself forward into a room like- sat presumably down with Rod Stewart and his team trying to work out how you're going to pull together this kind of incredible show for him?

The two worlds couldn't really be further apart, and yet you managed to go out of one door and through the other. Just give us a sense of how you approached that.

Simon Woodroffe: [0:24:04] Maybe that was part of the education. I mean, I'll tell you what I think was a bigger thing, is that I left school with the equivalent of two GCSEs now, two O-levels. Now, that was Marlborough College, you know, that was a big public school, and I left when I was- just before- late 16. And you know, what happened was I didn't have the imagination educated out of me, and I didn't have the fear of God that if I didn't do this career or that, and I didn't have anything to fall back on, but I had enthusiasm.

I think I had a couple of things. One is I didn't see the fear because I hadn't been educated of that, and I had enthusiasm for things. And I suppose I had a natural creative eye, I could see what I thought looked good.

I think it was that simple. I don't think- I think I got over coming out of prison very quickly, actually. The one lesson I learned there, I don't know about you, is I'm never going to go close to the law. I'm never going to break the law. And I had had thoughts that that would have been one route. So that was a good education. And, you know, there's a certain sort of throw caution to the wind. Just go for it and get excited about things. And people bought into it.

Andy Coulson: [0:25:32] You’ve talked before about how you kind of created a personality for yourself. There was a bit of a facade, a sort of shop front that you created for yourself, that later in your life you realised, “Well that's just not who I am at all,” and perhaps we'll talk about that.

But that actually served you well for a period of time, didn't it? I mean, deciding actually, “You know what? I know what it is I'm trying to do here, and I think I've got an idea of the kind of person I need to be to do it.” And although that wasn't the true authentic you in the end, it served you pretty well didn't it for a while?

Simon Woodroffe: [0:26:13] Yes. My father I think was an influence. My father was Brigadier John Woodruff, DSO. He wore a sort of handkerchief in his top pocket, he was hail fellow well met. And you know, look, we all wear a mask, don't we? We all have a performance. As I say, mine was the enthusiasm that I got from my father. I was over the top. When I look back I sort of wince. I wanted to be the centre of attention all the time. A bit of low self-esteem, which I think probably the psychiatrist would say there's nothing like a bit of low self-esteem to drive you on to do things, but you can be a bit of a pain in the neck, and I think I was. It was always very me, me, me.

But that sort of ego is pretty useful. When I was in the TV business years later, I found out that my nickname was The Steamroller, which I wince when I hear it. But on the other hand, I'm quite proud of it. You need that sometimes.

Andy Coulson: [0:27:23] Well, it suggests that you got things done.

Simon Woodroffe: [0:27:25] Yes, exactly. Exactly. I learned how to get things done and I delivered.

Andy Coulson: [0:27:33] The fashion now, I think this is one of the threads that runs through your story, this weaponising failure and difficulty. The fashion now of course is that we've got to get to our authentic selves. If you spend longer than half an hour on Instagram it is all about finding the real you, that there's not enough room actually, or not enough discussion around real failure, there's a lot of chat around the edges.

But the kind of how you have managed in the bumps in the road to put it, to understate it during the course of your life. At each point, you really put it to work.

And even though later of course you come to realise, “Well, that's not who I want to be. That's not actually who I am.” At the time, as I say, you really weaponised it. You put it to work. People shouldn't necessarily be afraid of doing that.

Simon Woodroffe: [0:28:31] No that's right, exactly. No, I mean, I think at the time I wasn't conscious of it. Now I'm very conscious of it and I can look back and see all the links that put that together. What can I say about all of that?

I think just being able to be yourself, you know, like I'm being now. I'm not giving you business speak, I'm not putting a line on you, I'm being myself. And I think that's much more appealing, even in a business sense. You know, I don't use business buzzwords, I use nursery language, I try to write letters that are short and to the point. You know, I try to have some humour in it. Those are those the things that I've learned. To be yourself and not to hide behind business plans, to go in and talk about...

And I could get into the theory of it. I think that for people to trust you and to give you money and to want to do things, they have to know who you are. So the earlier you can expose your own ploys is one of my lines, you know, and be sincere. Ultimately there's a bit of an act going on at the same time. So how sincere I really am. I'm acting to some extent now, we both are. I'm playing the part of myself.

Andy Coulson: [0:30:10] It's what it is to be a human being, isn't it?

Simon Woodroffe: [0:30:16] That's true. That is to be a human being. And I think if you can connect with people in business especially, if you can connect with people emotionally and listen to them and be interested, that's worth a lot more than hiding behind a business plan with loads of words and numbers and things, which after all is only something that's imaginary.

Andy Coulson: [0:30:41] Let's talk about the birth of YO! Sushi, for which thank you, by the way, my family absolutely loves the place. We’re committed customers.

The idea came from a meeting with an investor friend, I think, that you knew from the music industry. Can you just give us the short summary of how this astonishing thing happened?

Simon Woodroffe: [0:31:07] I was down on my luck and I determined to go out and ask people who I was afraid of their advice. I remember going to a few people, Harvey Goldsmith was one of them. [inaudible 0:31:21] I called him up and he was very friendly. So anyway, I thought I'd try a few more.

One of them was a guy I knew from the TV business called [Mr Uehara 0:31:27] who ran Fuji Sankey television. I’d done a sort of thing when I was in TV with him called Hit Studio Deluxe, which is his version of Top of the Pops in Japan. I said, “Look, I need to do something new,” and he very kindly took me out to lunch. That surprised me. And we were sitting in a restaurant in Hanover Square, a Japanese restaurant, I’d lived in LA and I liked sushi. And I said, “What about sushi?” I said that it's big in America, it's just not come over here. “Do you think it would work?” And was this sort of long Japanese silence. And, you know, I just waited for him.

He looked at me in the eyes and he said, “What you should do, Simon, is a conveyor belt sushi bar with girls in black PVC miniskirts.” Those were his actual words.

Andy Coulson: [0:32:16] Which is a very, very specific brief.

Simon Woodroffe: [0:32:20] But there he is. I think he just meant it should be stylish. But you know, that's what he said. I’d never heard those three words in a row: conveyor belt sushi bar. Four words. Conveyor belt sushi. There was no internet to look it up on, I started calling Japan to find out about it, and you can imagine what I went through. The Japanese Embassy I even called.

Eventually I went out to Japan and I saw these things. There were two and a half thousand of them in Japan and they'd been going since the 1950s. And nobody had heard about them here. That was the world we lived in and that was only thirty-five years ago. An incredible lesson for- you know, thirty-five years ago. I went out there and, you know, spent some of the little money I had doing that, and I thought to myself, “I'm onto something.” And actually I was scared shitless really, because I thought this is such a good idea that somebody who knew a lot more about restaurants than I did was going to get there before me.

Anyway I came back, and from my research I remember getting this envelope through the door and it was a sort of brown envelope with Japanese Katakana writing on it and I tore it open, bits of string to open it, and there in Japanese was all about how you did sushi bars. And one day one arrived in English, and it said, “How to start your own conveyor belt sushi bar.” They'd been aiming it at the Asian market. And I thought, “Oh my god, I hope nobody else has seen this.” It told you everything you needed to do. [sound cuts out 0:33:55]

So that’s when, you know, that voice starts off, you know, going, “I don’t know if this is a good idea, if somebody knew a lot more than you they would have done it earlier,” and you know, that's where I had you know the- But two years later I opened the first YO! Sushi It took me two years.

Andy Coulson: [0:34:11] So there are a few things there. You touched on it, you said you're down on your luck. I think you had just come through a pretty difficult, pretty painful divorce.

Simon Woodroffe: [0:34:20] A difficult divorce, I'm now good friends with that woman, she’s a very good friend of mine now, but it was very difficult back then.

Andy Coulson: [0:34:26] Yes, and obviously there's a financial impact that comes with that one imagines.

Simon Woodroffe: [0:34:33] That was the biggest part of it.

Andy Coulson: [0:34:34] Yes, and a big emotional impact as well. I know you've talked before about how you were managing your depression, both through your years in show business and now obviously pretty exacerbated by that moment.

So you know, I say all that because as you're looking at that manual and thinking, “Oh, my God, there's an opportunity here,” you've also got a whole load of other thoughts in your head that are not positive, that are possibly one might say anchors on you, sort of dragging you in different directions.

And yet, and again this comes back to the thread that I mentioned earlier, and yet you are able it seems to be able to take all that and channel it all into what obviously becomes such an epic success.

So I suppose the question is, how did you approach it from a sort of mindset point of view, Simon? You know, what's your- we use this phrase a lot on this podcast so apologies to the listener, but your operating system at that stage? How were you sort of dealing with all of those things and yet staying fixed on what by the way was not a sure bet by any measure, loaded with risk. Loaded with risk.

Simon Woodroffe: [0:35:45] Big, high risks. High risk.

Andy Coulson: [0:35:48 Just give us an idea of how you are managing yourself and your thoughts at that point.

Simon Woodroffe: [0:35:55 ] Well, in your- I think for a lot of people, in your thirties or your forties, your mind is- there's not a lot of peace in there. There certainly wasn't in mine. Mine was a complex place, my mind. There was always a million- you know that voice in the back of your head? There's a million things going on.

But when, you know, from my stage designing days, when I could find a site, and I had a motorbike and I drove round and I looked at sites, and every time I took the sites I got the drawings of them, the plans, you know, just, you know, acted as if I was going to do something, got the estate agents to send me the plans, and then I'd go home and I'd draw it up.

And once, you know, that was my modus operandus, was drawing up what it would actually look like and then starting to do the research on how much it would cost to do something about it. I didn't have the money to do it at that stage, I was purely going through that whole process. And when I was in that groove of designing and imagining and researching, the fear went away. And actually, one way I could describe it is that I kind of tricked myself into believing that it could happen.

And I got to the point where I really believed that this would happen and this would do very well, so when I talked to people I was convinced. It was this sort of internal con job, and you know, I suppose- and 90% of the time it-

Put it this way. After a while I started believing that it would do it. But when you start something so often you- and I still find it today when I'm starting it, you know, there's just enormous doubts about everything. I've always said you have to ,you know, it's a well-used turn of phrase but you have to sort of step outside your comfort zone. In my imagination you stand in the sand, you draw a circle around yourself and you step outside that comfort zone. That's what successful people do. And what happens when you do that, you feel uncomfortable. But actually feeling uncomfortable is a pretty good place to be if you're going to go and do difficult things.

And then the more work you do on it, the more research you do on it, the more you know about it, the more your comfort circle gets- your comfort zone gets bigger. And I think that was my operating mode.

And I started believing it. And when you believe something, you can walk in a room and people will believe you. Or at least if they don't believe you, they're not going to say something because they might be wrong. So that’s I guess was my- the nearest I can get to what that operating system-

Not least of which was I didn't have an alternative. I had at that time, tied up in my flat, I had 200 grand. And I got to a place where I was willing to risk all of that, because I knew that I couldn't do it. It was going to cost a million quid to open a first restaurant in those days, but I was willing to risk all of that money to do it. And I suppose it was throw caution to the winds. It was a bit- but I wanted to do it because I wanted to see what it looked like. I became obsessed. You know, there's no-

Andy Coulson: [0:39:40 ] That's brilliant, thank you.

Simon Woodroffe: [0:39:44 ] No, there's no work-life balance. Obsessed, obsession. Obsession's not such a bad thing. We're always told to have a balanced life, but when you're starting something, obsession is good.

Andy Coulson: [0:39:52] That's exactly what I wanted to pick up. You know, the internal con job I think is fascinating. But it wasn't just an internal con job to allow you to drive forward with this brilliant idea. It was also an internal con job that allowed you to not get dragged back by the other difficulties that you had in your life, and the struggles that you were having with more negative thoughts. It strikes me that you used the promise of this idea to kind of deal with that as well.

There's a well-worn theory isn't there, that when you're in anxiety or stress or in proper difficulty, the thing you should do is just get up, move, and get stuck into something. Whether that's as straightforward as jumping on an exercise bike, which is certainly something I do, or whether it's throw yourself in a way that you did in a fairly extreme high-risk venture that may or may not work and bet the house on it.

But the principle is the same, isn't it?

Simon Woodroffe: [0:40:56 ] I suspect that when I started off on this track, living off savings, I suspect the first three months I had what you're describing. But the next eighteen months, two years, when I look back on them, they were halcyon years. I was really enjoying myself.

You imagine this low self-esteem guy, full of ego, full of, “I’m great,” bullshit, basically. It was just what I needed. I knew a lot about it, I had drawings, I had things to show people. And I walked in and people were going, “That's amazing. That is incredible.” You know, it, it just fed me, it fed me. And the more I got good at talking about it, and the more research I did, and the more I could tell people stories about how I'd gone to Japan and done this, that and the other, you know, and people were sort of praising me.

We all want to be liked, and it felt really good. You know, I always say 90% of the time it felt great, 5% I wasn't quite sure, and 5% was sheer terror. But most of the time it was halcyon years.

And then we got to the opening, which I'm sure you're going to ask me about, you know, and in some ways, well, that was when the beginning of the real fear started, the day we opened.

Andy Coulson: [0:42:20] Tell us about that.

Simon Woodroffe: [0:42:24 ] We were in Soho, we had a big 30meter frontage. The shop, we covered the whole screen up with graphics done by Mark Norton who had done two Rolling Stones album covers, a very good graphic designer, who did the YO logo, and it said things on it like, “YO! Kirin, Genki desu ka, Sapporo,” you know, people had no idea what it was.

Soho is a busy place so lots of people walked past. And then we took down the- we had a big party the night before and then we took down the thing and inside was this enormous conveyor belt going around with these robotic drinks trolleys which were driving around. One of them used to- as it turned the corner it spoke in a digital voice, my voice actually, in a digital voice, and it said, “Move your fat ass, someone's got a fucking job to do in this restaurant.”

People were going, you know, I remember hearing an American tourist going, “Did you hear what he said to me, Joan?” It was outrageous. And you know, we had bells you could press and it went, “Ding-dong,” like they're doing a supermarket, and says, “Bring me my sake now!” It was outrageous. Nobody came in the first week, everybody was too terrified, people thought, “What is this thing?” And the second Saturday, we had an office downstairs, Bruce Isaacs who was our general manager then who was running the whole thing, came down, he says, “You've got to see this, Simon.” I came upstairs and there was- honestly, there was a queue down the block. I always say it was a hundred yards long, I think I'm exaggerating, but it was a long queue.

Had we done any marketing? Not really. Word of mouth, best marketing.

Andy Coulson: [0:44:08] Was that the moment? Seeing that queue, was that- when you look, when you think about the moments when- “Yeah, okay.”

Simon Woodroffe: [0:44:16] It was definitely one, it was definitely one. But of course, as soon as you see a queue that long, the first thing that comes into my head is, “Oh, how long is it going to last?” You know, there's always some negative things that are out there to try and trip you up. But that queue-

Andy Coulson: [0:44:31 ] Trip you up and drive you on. I mean, it's a business that's full of humour, full of character, full of creativity, but obviously there's another truth to your success and that is an ability to find great talent. Am I right? That is a key skill of yours, right?

Simon Woodroffe: [0:44:52 ] We had such good kids, but then partly they were good because they all wanted to work there. They were actually- it was so different, but everybody who worked there was so proud of what was there, they treated it like their own.

I used to go in before the public were allowed in in the morning and I'd say, “Look, you're free. You can do what you'd like.” I remember these two girls who were having a relationship, one of them got up on one of the chairs and they turned the music down, and she said, “It’s my girlfriend's birthday today. Can you help it?” The whole place joined in. You know, they were free to do what they wanted.

I actually used to say to them- no, it's just another story. That's the story about Harvey Nichols when we opened, because there's a very highfalutin lot of people. They're quite difficult people complaining and things. And I said, “You can give anything away free you like, anything you like.” Because those people are going to tell their friends, and they're probably worth a hundred grand each those people to us in the long term.

Andy Coulson: [0:46:01] This is a complaining customer. The answer is yes, give them something.

Simon Woodroffe: [0:46:04] Yes, give away what you want.

Andy Coulson: [0:46:08] I think I'm right that you also empowered your staff, and since- you know, we'll make it clear on the notes that this is a- this is not a PG episode, but that you, but you also empowered your staff to tell a customer to go fuck themselves if they misbehaved.

Simon Woodroffe: [0:46:24 ] Did I talk about that? I remember the telling them that. They were all standing in a row and I said, “Look. If those people are really, really rude to you, tell them to fuck off, we don't want your type there.” And there was quiet in the room and they said, “Really?” and I said, “Yes, you absolutely- and I'll back you up all the way.” And of course none of them ever, ever did it, but the fact that they knew I was behind them made it exciting. They were free to-

Andy Coulson: [0:46:55] That you had their back, yes.

Simon Woodroffe: [0:46:58] Yes, and because of that the whole place had real character.

Andy Coulson: [0:47:01] So how do you feel about the modern workplace, Simon? Do you sense do you sense a change in the workplace?

Andy Coulson: [0:47:09 ] Yes, I’m… Richard Branson said, “I don't think I could do what I did if I started again now,” and I certainly couldn't do what I did if I started again. There’s far too many rules and regs, and I, you know, what's the word? Lived by the whatever it is, you know, I just, I bussed it basically, and I don't think you can do that. But then on the other hand, if I'd been born thirty years later I'd have learned all the things that the kids learn now, and I would have done it their way. So maybe I would have, I could have done it again.

No, I think it's much more difficult now. But you know, every generation reinvents themselves. My next generation, my son-in-law, my daughter, they’ve got businesses and they're doing it their way. And, you know, everybody can do it and things.

I think, you know, if we're going to get political about it, well I could get political about a lot of things. But no, I think employment law is wrong. You know, this thing of jobs for life, you know, there's an awful lot of people who just take total advantage of it. And I'm a believer in Jack Welsh, who was the head of GE years ago, he used to say, you should cull the bottom 10%. Apart from anything else, by culling the bottom 10%, you might teach those people a lesson, and you're giving the next lot of people who take the job a chance to do something.

So I do think all of that's wrong. But I think the trouble is, with all of it is at the moment, the difficulty, you've got Crisis What Crisis, the difficulty Britain is in is that the country is being governed with a 19th Century system, 18th Century system, you know, it's been going on for years and years. And what you're seeing happening around the world, especially in America now, I think in fifty years, we'll look back and say that was the cusp as things started to change.

Andy Coulson: [0:49:09 ] It is potentially the breaking of old order.

Simon Woodroffe: [0:49:12] I think eventually, do you know what I think will happen? I think that when we have digital voting, which must happen, the government and people will realise that the people can give their opinion on an hourly, daily, weekly, monthly basis to the government of what they would like for their country, right, wrong or indifferent. They'll soon learn if they make mistakes, the people, and I think at some level we'll have government by the people because they'll be saying this is what we want, and rather like Switzerland who have an executive of seven people who implement fundamentally what the Swiss people want, we will have a government that implements instead of trying to kill each other in this great big argument house.

Andy Coulson: [0:49:56] Well, you know Singapore well. What's your view of the Singaporean approach to such things? You know, what's interesting about Singapore is that he is- you might argue with some of his human rights things, but everybody's got their glitches. But he runs an incredibly efficient business. People who live there love it. It works. He's a benevolent dictator. And here in Thailand, effectively it's a military dictatorship. But because of the culture here, even the military dictators are pretty nice people.

I mean, you can argue all sorts of different ways, but basically it works. And I suppose Trump, you could say he's trying to be a dictator of some sort. So you can get enormous things done when you have that sort of dictatorship.

But I think this is a process that we're going through, and when we come out the other side it will be- we will have a much more- I think ultimately it's power to the people because it means that the people then take responsibility instead of complaining about what the government is doing, and we have an executive who implement what the people want.

And then we have AI means testing, which means that rather than paying according to your income, everybody is means tested. And you get a grade rather like your council tax, and then you pay for everything including the NHS and including education, one education system, according to your means. And I think that's where I think it will go. So that money doesn't go through the-

Andy Coulson: [0:51:38] How you ensure that means testing is actually means testing and is actually fair, and who is in charge of the algorithm and all that stuff, obviously there's a thousand and one questions around it all.

Simon Woodroffe: [0:51:48] That’s right, but I think AI-

Andy Coulson: [0:51:50] But it does have a sense of inevitability.

Simon Woodroffe: [0:51:50 ] Do that now, and if you make a few mistakes, so what?

Simon Woodroffe: [0:51:54 ] Let me take you back to a less geo-politically based question, having put the world to rights.

Do you think it's easier or harder for someone with experiences like yours, you know, two O-levels to succeed in the way that you did?

Andy Coulson: [0:52:13] I think there's a statistic that says that if you leave school with no qualifications and all of that, that only 20% of people make a better job than people who have qualifications. But that was quite an old statistic and I would suspect that it's a lot more now. I always say that, you know, people say, “Should our kids go to university?” and all this business. And I say, “If you don't go to university, you're going to save yourself fifty grand, you're going to be three years ahead of your peers, and you're going to get education and life and everything.” And actually what you need to do is get outside your front door and go and do anything, anything, anything.

In Tahiti where I lived for a while, there was a guy there who was down in his luck as a young kid and he didn't know what to do I said, “Go out on your street,” which had a load of rubbish in it, “With a plastic bac every day for two hours and pick up all the rubbish on the street and see what happens.” And at the end of a week somebody started asking him what he was doing and he said, “'m doing this because I've got nothing else to do and somebody told me to do it.” And at the end of the second week the guy who ran a bicycle shop said, “That’s such a great initiative that you've done I'm going to give you a job in my bicycle shop.” And now he's in the bicycle business.

Andy Coulson: [0:53:33] Get up do something.

Simon Woodroffe: [0:53:34] Do something.

Andy Coulson: [0:53:35] Your OBE in 2006, a great moment for you. Were you able to say to yourself on that day, because you undeniably deserved it, but were you able to say to yourself, “Yes I deserve this,” or was there still sort of that voice in your head?

Simon Woodroffe: [0:53:53] The OBE. Well, when I went to the palace the MBEs and the lower ones turn left and the OBEs and the Sirs go up the stairs. And they give you- there’s a catalogue showing everybody else who's doing it. And there's lots and lots of people getting these awards so it's not that exclusive, although I must admit there aren't that many businessmen who get it.

Andy Coulson: [0:54:14] No not enough.

Simon Woodroffe: [0:54:15] It's a bit trade businessman. But there was one guy in my lot who'd got it for services to Polish steam trains, and I thought that puts it in perspective a little bit. So I didn't get too uppity about the whole thing, I thought it was a bit of fun. But it was a bit like, you know.

Andy Coulson: [0:54:34] But given the story that we've heard, given the places that you've been, given the challenges that you've faced, all right, I'm not saying it is the validation moment but it is it is a validation moment.

Simon Woodroffe: [0:54:45] There is a bit of that yes, there is a bit of that.

Andy Coulson: [0:54:48] It's interesting to me it's interesting to me that even now you're sort of talking it down.

Simon Woodroffe: [0:54:55 ] Well, yes. Prince Charles gave it to me, you’re told exactly what to tod. He said, “How many shushy bars have you got now?” And I said, you know. Yes, it was good. It was being sort of tacitly accepted by the establishment that I’d rebelled against so much. There was a bit of that.

Andy Coulson: [0:55:18 ] Well, congratulations.

Simon Woodroffe: [0:55:21] Thank you.

Andy Coulson: [0:55:22] Tell us please a bit about Dragon's Den because you were- you were in the second series, am I right?

Simon Woodroffe: [0:55:27 ] First series, the original.

Simon Woodroffe: [0:55:28 ] You were in the first series. Apologies. A good experience? That show has done quite a lot for- it’s certainly impacted the conversation around entrepreneurialism in this country and elsewhere. What's your what's your view of it as a format? I mean, I say this partly to link to the conversation we had earlier.

One of the things I found myself doing, I have never presented Dragon's Den other than in Hollesley Bay Prison where we ran Dragon's Den presentations on a sort of fairly regular basis. Because it's a resettlement prison, so most of the guys were getting ready for release, after very long sentences in some cases. I was asked to be involved in it, and they'd stand and they'd kind of pitch their idea for the future. So you know, I've got a sort of, if you like a bit of an emotional attachment to it from a distance.

But it's been a very useful, very interesting, quite impactful program over the years. And to have been a part of it must have been wonderful.

Simon Woodroffe: [0:56:33 ] I think it's absolutely great. It's certainly not a place that you go to get good investments. You know, you wouldn't ask the BBC to find good investments for you, but they wanted this drama, it’s show business.

And The Apprentice, the same. You know, love it or hate it I think they're all good because the kids who are growing up who used to go, you know, “What are you going to be?” A fireman or a footballer or a pop star. Now, “I’m going to be an entrepreneur.” And of course when I was growing up, entrepreneur was a- it was like a spiv, you know, it wasn’t a very good word. And now it's, “Good on you mate, you’ve done well,” which is what you're sort of saying to me.

So it's a very respectable thing to do and probably not such an insecure thing. So I think it's definitely given people- if we can fight our way out, if the Brits can fight our way out of this very, very difficult period we're in, it'll be through I think the entrepreneurial side.

Business is a funny thing because there are so many different businesses. There’s small startups, which I suppose is what I came from, and then there's medium sized businesses and then there's big, enormous mega businesses with people in cufflinks. Well, I say people in cufflinks in boardrooms, I always used to say that, but they're not anymore. They are dudes who are very, very good at doing what they're doing.

So, there's all sorts of different forms of business, but I think, you know, we Brits hold it. It's almost like a kind of a creative purse, and we always have done in fashion and music and all sorts, and I think entrepreneurism is the same. And I think that if we- one way to fight our way out is to deregulate and is to give entrepreneurs a real chance to do things.

Bit as I say, you know, it’s difficult with government wanting to regulate everything, and until we get an executive that just sets everybody free a bit, which is what Trump, love him or hate him, what he's trying to do is to deregulate to set businesses free. Very easy to criticise him, “He's just giving his mates more money,” but it's not, it's giving everybody the chance to go out and do something in this world.

Andy Coulson: [0:58:58] At risk of a very clunky segue, of course himself a former presenter of The Apprentice. And there is, in all seriousness there is a there's something there, right? Because he is, he absolutely plays on that entrepreneurial kind of get the deal done productivity.

Simon Woodroffe: [0:59:18] What is interesting is that- a lot of people have said to me, Why don't you go into politics? You’re good at communicating and all that stuff.” And I say, “Why would I? Why would I go into something where people are just going to kick your ass and catch you out on everything you're saying?”

And it's taken somebody like Trump, who's got so much ego that he absolutely doesn't really care about any of that, he's just going to go out and do it. But there are tons and tons of business guys, and younger ones as well, certainly in their 30s, who are really, really good at this stuff. And those are the people who should be running the company as executives, implementing, as I say, what the people want. But the reason Trump's in there is that, you know, he's just got enough- he's got more front than Selfridges and he doesn’t care about any of that. But most of us don't want to go in there because we don't want to have our arses kicked.

Andy Coulson: [1:00:13] It's a really interesting point that has Trump for-, you know, whatever you think of him, and we’ve all got we've all got our views, has he opened the door to the possibility of British businessmen finally succeeding in British politics?

Because as you know, there's a very long list of people who have tried and failed; some very accomplished businessmen who have gone into politics in this country and just fallen flat on their face, largely because they discover that when you pull the lever not much happens. Maybe Trump is going to open the door to, you know, every good idea has its day, as we've been discussing. Maybe that's where things will shift. It's a really interesting point.

Simon Woodroffe: [1:00:57] Yes. I thought Dominic Cummings was good, and I think he's one of those, Elon Musk. The system has got to change.

Andy Coulson: [1:01:06 ] I'm going to have to stop you there, Simon. I'm not going to allow you to put Dominic Cummings in the same sentence as Elon Musk. Please, offer your opinions as much as you like, that one I'm not letting you have, as someone who wants to work with him. Dominic Cummings, not Elon Musk.

Simon Woodroffe: [1:01:25 ] Or of his ilk.

Andy Coulson: [1:01:26 ] Or of his ilk. I think what you're saying there, correct me if I'm wrong, is that we need more disruptors. And on that, I don't disagree, but you've got to take people with you as well, haven't you?

Look, we've taken up enough of your time. I did want to talk about what comes next. You've given us a bit of a hint. Obviously I'm really looking forward to the book. If I may put in an early request to get you back once that book's out please, and have another chat, I'd love to because there's so much more I want to ask you.

But what's perfectly clear, as demonstrated by you're giving us your time today is that what you are doing is putting all of your experience, the tough stuff, the good stuff, the successes, the failures, to work for other people in the way that you sort of tell your story so brilliantly. So thank you for coming on and doing it for us today it's really appreciated.

Simon Woodroffe: [1:02:14] Thank you.

Andy Coulson: [1:02:16 ] Simon before you go I'm going to ask you for your Crisis Comforts. These are three specific things that you rely on to sort of manage yourself through the through the more difficult days what would you start with, please?

Simon Woodroffe: [1:02:32] Well, take them as you will. I've got what I call my three golden rules of life, which is don’t take anything personally, ever.

Andy Coulson: [1:02:49] Easily said, hard to do, right?

Simon Woodroffe: [1:02:51] Very hard to do. But I probably think about that three, four, five times a day and I- I only know it because I used to take everything personally. It's a really good one to get that.

And the second one is don't try and change anybody ever, because it doesn't work.

And the third one is everything always works out, always. You know, what I was worrying about last week or last month, I can't even remember what they were. And you know, on one shoulder I'm really serious about what I do. I want to do things really, really well and I want the outcomes the way I want them. But on the other shoulder I don't give a damn. What I do, what YO! does, it ain't very important in the big scheme of life. So when this gets too strong I invoke this.

And this this is all about wanting outcomes If you want outcomes and you don't get them, then you're going to get upset and stressed. But if you allow things to work out how they work out, do the best you can and allow things to work out.

Andy Coulson: [1:04:11 ] So take your life seriously, but don't take yourself too seriously in the process.

Simon Woodroffe: [1:04:18] No. And if you do get into stress- I try to work on all these things all the time, you know. Try and do something for somebody else every day, two things every day for somebody else, not the act of generosity, if you tell somebody it doesn't count, all of that sort of stuff.

But you know, if I do get really stressed, you know, I'm the same as everybody else, I'm obsessed with exercise anyway, I love going hiking and rock climbing and kayaking and riding horses and all of that. And if you really, really get yourself tired, then you sleep well. And I suspect that if you sleep a lot, you have a better and a longer life. I sailed across the Pacific twelve years ago and I used to go to sleep when the sun went down to get up when it- thing.

And I'm in bed most nights by eight o'clock at night and I get up really early, and I sleep a lot. And I'm sure that's a secret to, you know, getting things. That worked for me.

Andy Coulson: [1:05:19 ] Fabulous. Simon, thank you so much for joining us. I really appreciate it.

Simon Woodroffe: [1:05:25] Cheers, Andy.

End of Recording

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