1 00:00:00,001 --> 00:00:05,540 On this episode of the Dudes and Dads podcast, we're talking with our friends at Grace College about Christian higher ed 2 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:29,960 Dole welcome. This is an interesting thing for us Andy. We are we are deep in the land of Winona Lake 3 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:35,360 Why Nona Winona it however we pronounce it. I'm sure our guests will correct us officially, but 4 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:40,960 We're really fortunate. We're actually in on campus here at Grace College and 5 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:46,080 We have been invited to do a couple of what I'm referring to as the grace sessions 6 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:52,600 It sounds I like sounds like official and that like some sort of Grammy winning experience will come out of this 7 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:53,720 but 8 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:56,720 Really our our exciting thing here is that we're recording 9 00:00:56,720 --> 00:01:04,240 Two episodes here and we have students that are a part of this recording session. They're gonna use these podcasts as 10 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:09,700 Official projects to submit for recording classes. So we're excited about that 11 00:01:09,700 --> 00:01:13,720 We want to say thank you to our friend Scott Allen who helped set all this up 12 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:18,080 Who's an instructor down here at grace and we've got a couple of guests as well 13 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:20,760 from the college who are gonna talk about 14 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:26,560 kind of big picture Christian ed and then on our next episode talking specifically about 15 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:31,160 grace the experience the college experience here what's offered and 16 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:37,120 And why grace is a great decision for someone who's looking for a Christian college experience 17 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:41,880 So but before we do that Andy, we have people that help make this show possible 18 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:45,640 We do so this episode is supported by a AVAD 19 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:50,680 Chiropractic our pain intention holding you back at a AVAD chiropractic and wellness in Goshen 20 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:53,120 We help you move better feel better and live better 21 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:57,000 Whether you're an athlete recovering from injury or just tired of the daily 22 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:02,640 Aches our expert chiropractic care and therapeutic massage can help get you back to doing what you love 23 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:08,700 We specialize in advanced technique like chiropractic adjustments deep tissue and real lock relaxation massage 24 00:02:08,700 --> 00:02:17,280 Compression therapy and more to target the root cause of your discomfort not just the symptoms don't settle for just getting by experience real relief 25 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:24,800 Book your appointment today at a AVAD chiropractic comm click to schedule button or call us at five seven four three one two 26 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:27,320 zero four zero two a 27 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:33,480 AVAD chiropractic and wellness because your body deserves the best. Oh, dr. Clark Kaufman over there a AVAD chiropractic 28 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:35,480 If you have not heard me say this before 29 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:42,160 Several years ago on my 35th birthday. I woke up got out of bed a terrible crack sensation 30 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:46,080 I heard it and I called dr. Dr. Kaufman immediately 31 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:51,520 He said like like like it was an emergency situation. He goes I'll be right there and I met him down at the office 32 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:57,340 He did things to me that I I didn't know were possible noises in my spine were made. I walked out of there 33 00:02:57,340 --> 00:03:02,400 Walking upright. So that's my personal testimonial for a AVAD chiropractic and wellness 34 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:06,940 So glad to have them as sponsors so grateful for their support of the dudes and dads podcast 35 00:03:06,940 --> 00:03:11,040 Well, hey this evening we have two will say 36 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:15,560 Distinguished guests. I'm gonna I'm gonna use that kind of language about this 37 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:21,940 I don't want to oversell it. I don't want to undersell it. So we've decided to use the word distinguished Andy. Is that appropriate? 38 00:03:21,940 --> 00:03:25,540 But so I want to have you guys introduce yourself 39 00:03:25,540 --> 00:03:31,760 Yeah, when we when we do this we do the dad stats. So tell me are you married? Do you have kids? 40 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:39,380 Just tell me all about you. So first and I'll just say joining us our doctors Wally Brath and Kevin Roberts. They are so 41 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:45,900 Dr. Bratz serves as the head of worship arts here at Grace College and then 42 00:03:45,900 --> 00:03:48,200 Dr. Roberts is the Provost 43 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:54,200 I have never known you're gonna tell us what Provost is because I have never fully known people say Provost and I'm like that sounds 44 00:03:54,200 --> 00:04:00,600 Superficial. I don't know what that does. But you're also a professor here you you teach you are a past graduate student here as well 45 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:02,760 I did read your bio. I looked into it a little digging 46 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:07,600 So we're gonna get to hear more about that. But as Andy said you guys get to introduce yourself 47 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:12,320 tell us all the things about you your family that you feel are safe for the internet and 48 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:16,480 Wally we'll start with you first go for it. Sure 49 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:20,480 well been married for for 35 years have three kids and 50 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:25,340 My oldest is a senior here at Grace College. I studying engineering 51 00:04:25,340 --> 00:04:30,480 My middle child Carissa. She is at Ball State a 52 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:36,000 Violin major there and my youngest is a junior in high school here at Warsaw High School 53 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:41,840 One kind of interesting thing about us is is all of us play musical instruments 54 00:04:41,840 --> 00:04:45,520 So we have a we have a bass player my oldest son 55 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:48,320 middle child violin youngest child 56 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:54,640 Percussion my wife's a violinist. I play piano so we get to do things at church together 57 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:59,540 Which is a little bit of a family band family band family band asked at the breath family 58 00:04:59,540 --> 00:05:03,600 Yes, the breath family players. I can just see it. It's in lights 59 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:05,880 so 60 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:10,400 Yeah, and also very interestingly my my kids 61 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:14,000 They really dig like the music that that my wife and I are into 62 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,320 in fact 63 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:22,160 This this weekend. We're gonna go see Foster the People and she yes and but as a family, which is really interesting 64 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:25,960 so my kids will listen to like, you know old Kansas Records and yes, and 65 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:29,400 Just just I you know, that's not supposed to happen 66 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:35,640 But for whatever reason my kids have have just really been into like well, it's because you've done something, right? 67 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:42,300 Well, it's you've you've trained them up in the way. They should go. That's right. That's what's happened. That's what I hear. Yes. Yes 68 00:05:42,300 --> 00:05:47,380 Yes, thank you. So that's my family wonderful Kevin over to you. Yeah, so I've been married for 69 00:05:47,380 --> 00:05:53,920 29 years almost 29 years and to my wife Heather and we have two kids 70 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:56,620 I have one that is a junior here at grace 71 00:05:56,620 --> 00:06:00,240 Just getting his M. Cats course back today. Nice 72 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:05,840 so and then I have a daughter who's down at Huntington University and she is 73 00:06:05,840 --> 00:06:09,140 studying art education wonderful, so 74 00:06:09,140 --> 00:06:12,160 interesting about us 75 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:18,680 We travel a lot as a family, I think I've been to all but six major league ballparks 76 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:21,640 And after my own heart 77 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:23,520 yeah, and 78 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:25,720 my wife's a pharmacist and so 79 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:32,760 Of course, I'm a psychologist so, you know, she gives them the drugs and I try to keep them away from people. So it's 80 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:39,040 What the dynamic family dynamic that's great that's great. Yeah, wonderful 81 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:42,040 Well, we're so glad to have you guys with us here on this show 82 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:47,480 And I think it's a unique opportunity when we get to talk with people who are on the ground 83 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:54,000 Daily working with college students. It's a someone who was a youth and young adult pastor for for quite a while 84 00:06:54,640 --> 00:07:01,400 Just this season of life. I think young adults number one and I've said this on our show before I'll say it again 85 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:09,440 What an exciting time of life but very very critical and and I have a general sense that 86 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:13,680 Of course, none of our grace college students fall into this category 87 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:19,120 But you know our young adults are struggling in a lot of in a lot of ways and there there are some real serious 88 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:26,000 challenges that lie in front of them and I just think it's a unique opportunity to be able to talk about those things and to talk 89 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:30,560 about maybe even specifically as we're this this first session that we're talking just 90 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:34,600 Christian education as a whole kind of the big 30,000 foot view 91 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:37,600 What has been going on in Christian ed? 92 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:42,760 what is going on thinking specifically to the needs of college students currently and and 93 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:46,540 the questions and the needs that families have is they're trying to navigate like 94 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:51,160 What what will be those educational decisions that we make so I 95 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:53,720 When I sent the show notes out to you guys 96 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:58,560 I'll just tell you back in I remember I remember the day back in 97 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:02,160 2009 right around this time of year. I was sitting in a 98 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:06,740 Graduate class. It was the psychology of pastoral counseling 99 00:08:06,740 --> 00:08:11,640 So, you know deep stuff had a clinical psychologist is teaching this class, but we always had 100 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:18,120 a little bit of a kind of a devotional before before class would start and that day 101 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:24,520 He brought a doozy. It was a recent article that had been picked up by the the Christian Science Monitor 102 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:29,620 from an author known as Michael Spencer and Michael Spencer at the time was like one of the 103 00:08:29,620 --> 00:08:36,660 guys for our young people there used to be these things called blogs that people read and that was like 104 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:44,820 long articles online before the podcast thing really really hit and so Michael Spencer was one of the top Christian bloggers in the 105 00:08:44,820 --> 00:08:51,680 in the country and getting thousands of tens of thousands of daily of daily reads regularly and he wrote this article on his blog that 106 00:08:51,680 --> 00:08:53,040 kind of picked up 107 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:54,240 attention 108 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:55,480 That was back in 109 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:59,440 2009 that he wrote that he wrote this article and I have gone back every single year 110 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:03,400 It's kind of like he made these kind of pronouncements and statements about his concern about 111 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:09,240 Evangelical faith evangelical culture where we were going what what challenges were ahead and 112 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:15,440 I have gone back every year to this article to kind of be like how what how right was he? 113 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:19,600 Just as a kind of a little bit of a canary down the mine shaft so to speak, you know 114 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:24,080 Am I seeing these things ongoing in our culture? Are these concerns still relevant today? And 115 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:27,800 And if so, what are we what are we doing about it? Are we talking about it? 116 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:30,160 So when we have these kind of conversations 117 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:34,400 Especially with people who are professors who are at a Christian college 118 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:40,200 there's a couple of items that he mentions in this article that are specific to that so I'm gonna read this quote and 119 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:46,120 Then I want to like just dive in and see what you guys just what you think about it. Yay. Nay 120 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:52,660 And all that and then Andy and I will just pepper you with questions after that. So he wrote again 121 00:09:52,660 --> 00:09:58,100 This is back in the spring of 2009. He wrote this article entitled 122 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:03,400 The coming evangelical collapse. Okay, so like a really striking title, right? 123 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,160 And as part of this article he writes this 124 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:14,220 We evangelicals have failed to pass on to our young people an orthodox form of faith that can take root and survive the secular 125 00:10:14,220 --> 00:10:16,200 onslaught ironically 126 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:20,380 The billions of dollars that we've spent on youth ministers Christian music 127 00:10:20,380 --> 00:10:26,320 Publishing and media has produced a culture of young Christians who know next to nothing about their own faith 128 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:31,320 Except how they feel about it. Our young people have deep beliefs about the culture war 129 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:38,700 But do not know why they should obey Scripture the essentials of theology or the experience of spiritual discipline and community 130 00:10:38,700 --> 00:10:42,260 coming generations of Christians are going to be 131 00:10:42,260 --> 00:10:49,240 monumentally ignorant and unprepared for culture wide pressures and he continues on in his next point 132 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:53,840 He says despite some very successful developments in the past 25 years 133 00:10:54,720 --> 00:11:00,260 Christian education has not produced a product that can withstand the rising tide of secularism 134 00:11:00,260 --> 00:11:08,240 Evangelicalism has used its educational system primarily to staff its own needs and talk to itself 135 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:13,280 Ouch, and by the way, I'm sitting and we're sitting here talking to college professors 136 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:17,920 I was sitting at a Christian College getting a graduate degree and my 137 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:23,880 Psych Christian psych professor is leveling the statement for a devotional mind you 138 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:25,480 That was a little bit unexpected 139 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:30,080 But it's just this is stuck out to me and I've just kind of gone back to this every year to say 140 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:32,440 What is going on? So 141 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:34,720 You hear these words 142 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:38,120 You hear these concerns about are you training our young people? 143 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:44,860 Preparing them for the world in which they're going into and the and a little bit of the accusation here and mind you Michael Spencer was 144 00:11:44,860 --> 00:11:48,760 A chaplain at a Christian school as he as he wrote this as well down in Kentucky 145 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:52,120 So in a little more context, he was kind of preaching to his own people, too 146 00:11:53,680 --> 00:11:55,680 When you hear this 147 00:11:55,680 --> 00:11:58,380 What what resonates with you? 148 00:11:58,380 --> 00:12:04,400 What maybe you would push back on where do you how do you see this kind of playing out within a student body? 149 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:06,600 and 150 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:12,880 And just kind of the broader sphere again. We're kind of talking big picture a broader sphere of within Christian education 151 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:17,400 What resonates with you guys? What do you think Wally? I'll give it to you 152 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:19,880 Give it to you first and we can kind of go around the room 153 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:22,880 Yeah 154 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:25,320 I 155 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:27,360 Mean I think part of the 156 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:30,480 maybe what he's what he's getting at there is I 157 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:36,320 See as a result of maybe like the local church because we have a lot of students coming from a lot of different 158 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:41,280 you know denominational backgrounds and you know, they a 159 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:47,080 Large part of how they view their relationship with God and and 160 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:51,080 Comes from the way they were shaped in that local church 161 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:57,240 You know the the early Church Fathers said the way we pray or the way we worship affects what we believe 162 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:02,360 and it now goes both ways what we believe affects how we pray and worship but 163 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:05,880 You know that the 164 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,200 how we worship week after week I 165 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:15,300 Often tell students that that the the Sunday worship service is really the front lines of discipleship 166 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:21,620 You know what we what we emphasize in worship week after week the sung prayers that we sing together 167 00:13:21,620 --> 00:13:28,760 Are shaping the way we see God and the way that we respond to him and 168 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:32,280 Unfortunately, I think 169 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:38,980 In kind of the larger evangelical context. It's gotten to be very consumer driven very 170 00:13:38,980 --> 00:13:41,680 and and so 171 00:13:41,680 --> 00:13:45,220 You know, it's kind of like this big machine that's kind of pumping out different, you know 172 00:13:45,220 --> 00:13:48,840 Whether it's music or conferences or you know books that kind of thing 173 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:52,660 And so but I'm not sure 174 00:13:52,660 --> 00:13:56,340 We've we've thought you know a little bit deeper about how 175 00:13:56,340 --> 00:14:02,260 As a local church, we're actually, you know shaping the people of God so when so when we get students here 176 00:14:02,260 --> 00:14:06,020 They already have obviously, you know worldview and in ways that they think about 177 00:14:06,020 --> 00:14:09,640 the Word of God and in those things is so 178 00:14:11,420 --> 00:14:16,040 Yeah, so I mean part part of what we do with worship arts we have a you know 179 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,040 a course in history of Christian worship and 180 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:20,240 biblical theology of worship 181 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:26,560 But we're trying to I'm trying to even let them see kind of the the trajectory of where where where their denomination has come from 182 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:28,560 Right, so they kind of have a context of that 183 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:32,480 but we look at you know kind of even pre Reformation and and you know 184 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:39,340 What not everything in the medieval period was was you know was was bad, you know and even kind of going back kind of beyond the 185 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:44,900 The Enlightenment and and the Reformation those kinds of things just so they get a context 186 00:14:44,900 --> 00:14:52,120 Of how how the church in each era interpreted the Word of God, you know, and that's that's really important 187 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:54,940 So 188 00:14:54,940 --> 00:14:58,580 So yeah, so what we're trying to do is is trying to equip these students to be 189 00:14:58,580 --> 00:15:01,940 Pastoral musicians, you know worship pastors first 190 00:15:01,940 --> 00:15:07,840 and so we have in in our you know, you know, maybe we'll talk about this at a different point too in the podcast, but 191 00:15:08,980 --> 00:15:13,680 But we I think we have a good balance of kind of the theology of worship and then some real practical 192 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:18,760 musical things that they'll they'll need to do as they as they go out into churches, but to realize that 193 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:25,240 The kinds of worship services the liturgies that they're planning are shaping the people of God. I mean, I think that's a 194 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:27,060 Really big part of it 195 00:15:27,060 --> 00:15:32,480 So I think even if they just kind of kind of understand that and kind of own it and feel the weight of that 196 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:34,480 I think that could 197 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:37,120 in turn maybe 198 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,680 Change change the culture a little bit, you know going forward. So 199 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:48,400 Yeah, I would go back to that first statement he says where he says we in the evangelicals have failed to pass on 200 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:56,720 To our young people an Orthodox form of faith that take root and survive the secular onslaught. I think where I struggle 201 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:03,360 And in a good way with this is I think it comes down to human for me. It comes down to development 202 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:08,560 I don't think if you if you fail to understand that you are 203 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:13,240 chosen known right adopted and 204 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:17,120 Loved by God unless your identity is fully in Christ 205 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:23,720 You are going to be swayed and you're gonna be influenced and I don't think 206 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:27,560 we have probably done an adequate job in my opinion of 207 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:32,160 really teaching identity formation that is in Christ and 208 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:37,840 I think it's something we have to get better at because otherwise we're gonna be swayed by the 209 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:41,200 Experiences right? Where does that where does that start? Is that? 210 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:45,880 Starting at home when we're young or where does that start? 211 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:50,600 I think that starts at home because I think you have to ask yourself the question all the time 212 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:57,700 Right was does my performance determine my value does how pretty I am or how athletic I am 213 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:03,600 Determine my value and where do I get my value from and so for me? 214 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:09,200 You're gonna easily be swayed if you do not realize first where you're rooted 215 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:15,360 Because it all comes back to and if you follow the longings that all human beings have 216 00:17:15,360 --> 00:17:22,560 They come back to some of those very root things about being in Christ, right? We want to be accepted 217 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:26,040 We want to be loved and we want other people's approval 218 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:33,240 But we have that in Christ and that's where I feel like if we failed we've probably failed there 219 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:35,760 yeah, what so 220 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:40,720 You know, I think about 221 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:43,680 Moms and dads aunts and uncles 222 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:47,360 You know fellow 223 00:17:47,360 --> 00:17:49,720 believers in a faith community 224 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:52,120 who 225 00:17:52,120 --> 00:17:59,240 Who want to see their young people succeed, right? They want it. They want to see them be discipled and to you know grow up and there's 226 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,680 You know, they're a lot of our young people, you know 227 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:09,600 the 18 19 years before they ever find themselves in a college context if that's the route that they take and those are I mean 228 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:13,060 For someone who does a lot of you know, adolescent talk 229 00:18:13,060 --> 00:18:18,600 Thanks a lot and talks a lot about adolescent brain development and all those sort of I mean, they're a sponge right? 230 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:24,240 Like they're just they're they're sucking all of this culture all these experiences up long before they're ever even you know 231 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:27,320 I'm sure you you many times have felt like man if I only could have 232 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:31,340 Connected with this student a few years a few years earlier 233 00:18:31,340 --> 00:18:37,160 But for a community that really wants the best for for young people 234 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:41,660 And and then they're they're hoping that maybe this next 235 00:18:41,660 --> 00:18:46,420 The college experience the next the next phase of their life, which is again 236 00:18:46,420 --> 00:18:53,440 So critical will be kind of this determining factor will help solidify some of the things Kevin that you just outlined here in terms of identity 237 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:58,600 What 238 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:06,540 What questions for anybody that's thinking about Christian education for their young for their young person 239 00:19:06,540 --> 00:19:08,520 and 240 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:13,240 Is concerned about that identity question when they're looking at colleges? 241 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:19,020 What questions should they be asking to sort of say is this a place that is 242 00:19:19,020 --> 00:19:21,460 Concerned about that 243 00:19:21,460 --> 00:19:25,620 Andy and I had a very riveting conversation on the way down here because I'm always asking it 244 00:19:25,620 --> 00:19:32,380 I'm always asking this question of of the sort of the formal learning aspect and the formational aspect and the integration of those two things 245 00:19:32,380 --> 00:19:35,720 I think my bias would be that places tend to do very well 246 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:39,480 You know, I don't want to make a bifurcation here 247 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:45,080 But they tend to do well may be better in one area and not so well in the other or vice versa they can that can 248 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:47,080 happen on either side 249 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:52,280 You're counseling a potential future college student who's looking at Christian College 250 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:56,360 Parents are trying to ask this question of like oh, is this the place that's going to help them 251 00:19:56,360 --> 00:20:00,560 With their identity like understand their central identity in Christ 252 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:09,000 What would you counsel them toward what would what questions can they be asking the colleges what questions can they be asking staff and things 253 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:11,720 Like that because I'm sure you answer those questions yourself. So 254 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,640 Yeah, help us 255 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:22,040 well, I think that's the I think that's the beauty of going to a Christian College in the first place and it's an even a 256 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:23,640 liberal arts 257 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:29,760 Institution like ours. I think the value is that we're interested in the whole person, right? 258 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:35,880 We're interested in them emotionally spiritually. We're interested in their intellectual development 259 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:42,680 And yeah, we may not have some of them you there might be some things that we don't have that a big university may have 260 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:46,560 But we're also interested in your complete development 261 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:52,840 Right. Our goal is that you have a formed Christian worldview, right? 262 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:59,160 And we want you to know where your identities add so that you're not easily swayed that you're going out and you're serving in your church 263 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:02,160 And you're impacting your community and meaningful ways 264 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:10,520 Right. So for me, I think one of the things that they have to look for is what do you want from for your child? 265 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,360 Right. What do you want? Do you want? 266 00:21:13,360 --> 00:21:16,880 Intellectual development or do you want the whole package? 267 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:23,720 For the parent that just wants their kid to make a lot of money when they graduate college like what what about what about that? 268 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:26,660 Is that is that bad? 269 00:21:26,660 --> 00:21:30,360 Should they be shamed or should they be gently? 270 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:37,360 Corrected and told told for to go on a different path. What Wally help us help us out, man 271 00:21:37,360 --> 00:21:39,360 I probably the wrong person 272 00:21:39,360 --> 00:21:47,000 As a being in in worship ministry for you know, 25 plus years and then yeah 273 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:52,320 Yeah, I mean I think of that I think of what Jesus said in the Gospels, you know, he said like, you know 274 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,940 What good is it if you if you gain the whole world and yet forfeit your soul? 275 00:21:55,940 --> 00:21:56,400 I mean 276 00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:00,800 I don't obviously we need to be able to make a living and take care of our families and 277 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:08,480 So for for me, you know a lot of time parents will say well, you know my my my student 278 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:13,320 They love music. They love worship, but I want them to be able to make a living 279 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:15,320 You know that I don't want them living in my base, right? 280 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:22,460 And and part of that I mean, you know, I know my my experience, you know, God has always taken care of 281 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:27,800 My family, you know, even when we just started out we were just kind of in small churches 282 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:32,800 and we were part of some church planting when we were at Bethlehem Baptist in Minneapolis and 283 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:39,640 You know this kind of entrepreneurial, you know starting up different churches and that kind of thing. God has always 284 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:44,000 Been faithful to take care of us. So I mean I that might seem like a cop-out 285 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:50,920 but but I think if you're feeling called to to ministry whether it's you know, preaching or you know, 286 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:54,320 overseas ministry or you know kind of worship ministry 287 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:59,360 You know, you're not gonna make you know, you're probably not gonna make a ton of money in that 288 00:22:59,360 --> 00:23:01,360 But God's gonna God's gonna take care of you 289 00:23:01,360 --> 00:23:07,400 but I think for the the students that want to study, you know, like that are more in STEM and engineering and 290 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:12,700 You know business and that kind of thing. I mean they they just need to know how to 291 00:23:12,700 --> 00:23:20,720 Not see that as an idol and and also how best to kind of steward the resources that that God will give them 292 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,800 You know kind of in the future in their in their vocation. So I think 293 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,640 Here, you know, I think at a Christian 294 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:28,520 institution 295 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:34,720 Hopefully we're gonna kind of instill those values as well how to be good stewards of that. So so 296 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:41,840 Part of my story is right out of high school. I graduated. I'm gonna date myself here graduated in 1998 297 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:46,140 high school went two years to a small Christian school in 298 00:23:46,140 --> 00:23:48,800 Illinois and 299 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:56,680 Stopped and went life took me somewhere else didn't graduate from there now that college is no longer 300 00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:02,000 We're seeing a lot of this disappearing. So I ended up going back later 301 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:06,020 I got my degree online from another Christian University, but 302 00:24:06,020 --> 00:24:09,560 But did it online? Do you think it? 303 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:15,520 In the world where it's harder and harder worth these smaller schools are closing closing down 304 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,880 What does that look like so is it is it still I mean 305 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:23,640 Do we is it smart to still go to a small school that may be closing in? 306 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:27,200 Two years or is it and this is a flip side of that coin 307 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:33,520 Is it also maybe better to wait a little bit for me? I went back in my 30s 308 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:37,660 And finished and got my degree. Is it smarter to wait? 309 00:24:37,660 --> 00:24:44,600 For that like because I'll go on the other I'll just say this Andy was a phenomenal student in his 30s 310 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:50,120 I was I was a terrible student in sometimes they say education is wasted on the young right and it's and it's like 311 00:24:50,120 --> 00:24:53,660 That's a that's a great point, you know 312 00:24:53,660 --> 00:25:01,840 yeah, so I just I guess the the thrust of your question is just this is 313 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:10,480 Well, we're always asking this question is college the best is it the best thing right right after it's right out of high school 314 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:17,360 As you guys think about the Christian college experience or whatever. I know I was 315 00:25:17,360 --> 00:25:21,200 You know, I just I just think about my own experience 316 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:27,640 I was such a better student at toward the end toward the end like just such a better so much more focused 317 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,960 I knew I knew how much my money was actually worth. That's exactly yes 318 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:35,480 When I'm right now, I was responsible for my loans right then, you know things like that 319 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,960 What I don't if you guys have you know 320 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,120 Kevin if you have thoughts just on yeah, I just done on that of 321 00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:49,960 The timing and discerning because there's obviously pressures for some of like I got to know the next thing 322 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,440 What do you think what would your count again? 323 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:59,800 We're we're talking to we're talking to families who are coming to you for the sage advice of what they should do with their with this 324 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:05,080 Pedential college student. What do we think? Well, my family were they were not believers 325 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:12,040 So I started at a university and when I got saved I I went and I was not ready for college 326 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:14,640 And no one had ever been to college on either side of my family 327 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:20,720 So, you know, I probably had a robust 2.2 GPA at the end of my first year and a half 328 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:25,960 Because I didn't know how to study I had never studied and so 329 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,820 So it was it a good use of my money right then 330 00:26:29,820 --> 00:26:34,240 no, it was not but I stay I obviously stayed the course and 331 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,160 I do think there's value in going 332 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,400 early 333 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:46,660 The difference between an 18 year old brains development and a 21 year old brains development 334 00:26:46,660 --> 00:26:49,560 it is 335 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,880 Huge and you can see it in the conversations in the classroom 336 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:59,100 You can see it in the the kinds of things that you can the thoughtful discussions that you can have 337 00:26:59,100 --> 00:27:02,280 There are much harder when they're younger 338 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:07,480 So I think there's value in going early. I'm probably biased that way 339 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,360 But 340 00:27:10,360 --> 00:27:12,360 Clearly you get to be a better student 341 00:27:12,360 --> 00:27:18,960 When you see that you have to pay those student loans back and it feels more real to you. Yeah 342 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,000 so 343 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,560 What what are they in Kevin? Maybe this is a 344 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,440 Wall if you've got thoughts on this too, I think 345 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:32,920 Asking we kind of asked this question about like in the Christian college world. What are the like? What are the trends that are emerging? 346 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:34,000 What are the what are the big things? 347 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:40,800 What are the kind of the national Christian college level as you guys go to your conferences and you're part of your associations or whatever? 348 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:46,640 What are people talking about? What are the what are the the challenges? What are the the victories? 349 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:51,640 What where's the you know, hopefully we're all feeling hopeful about about things but also 350 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:56,520 You know it as someone who leads a just even a secular non-for-profit now 351 00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:00,280 the money is not getting any easier and and 352 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:05,340 People's hesitations seem to be increasing for a number of reasons 353 00:28:05,340 --> 00:28:12,420 What what's what's what's emerging? What is what are the big conversations? This is made this is a provost question for sure 354 00:28:12,420 --> 00:28:17,440 I'm just interested to get your yeah to get your your sense of that 355 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:24,960 Well, I was just in Texas last week at an International Alliance of Christian Education that kind of goes k-12 all the way through so 356 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:33,080 You know, we spend a lot of time talking about some of the real the realities that are really difficult that we're facing right now 357 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:38,200 and some of them are things like AI how I AI is going to influence all of us and 358 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:44,360 The ways it's influencing education and are we embracing it are we not 359 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:50,680 And so there's a there's a lot of debate about that right now. I think the other things that we face are 360 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,360 finding the right faculty and 361 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:59,120 Industry we're the hiring of the right faculty members has become 362 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,280 You know 363 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:06,480 Increasingly more of a challenge there's because there's some disciplines. You just can't hardly find them 364 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:11,520 I mean interesting we've had positions and one of our disciplines open for four years and 365 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,120 You know finding those folks are 366 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:19,040 Difficult is it difficult from so I'm just wondering is it difficult? 367 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:24,520 Just based on the skill set itself or is it skill set and 368 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:31,480 Believe, you know like because we I am assuming we're hiring Christian professors here. Yeah, right 369 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:33,560 So they have to sign off on the belief statement, right? 370 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:40,240 There's a doctrinal component is is it collectively the challenge or is it both are both are an issue? 371 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:46,400 No, it's not both. I would say it's definitely the industry. Okay. Yeah more and more people have left 372 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,080 especially when you get into the sciences 373 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:51,080 Your 374 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:56,080 Psychologists and what they can make immediately in industry is so much different 375 00:29:56,080 --> 00:30:01,680 Yeah, then we just don't pay them as well. Yeah. Yeah, and and that's the challenge, right? 376 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:07,400 So but you're looking for those best qualified people and so sometimes waiting to find those 377 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:13,680 Great fits and highly qualified people. Sometimes you're waiting for a couple of years to get them 378 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:19,880 Does it look like I've heard some of my colleagues talk about the and this is I think this is a made-up term 379 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:21,280 but the 380 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:22,960 adjunctification of 381 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:24,960 Christian ed where you're finding 382 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:32,780 More and more part-time professors or people that are in in an industry in a discipline who are coming in and who are you know? 383 00:30:32,780 --> 00:30:38,000 Offering I mean what good bad is that like is that a concern? 384 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,800 Well, it is it can be 385 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,320 It can also be a wonderful blessing too, right? 386 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:49,160 Because you know there was when I first started and fell in love with teaching 387 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:53,880 It was I was out there doing counseling and I was doing the work and so you're bringing a ton of expertise 388 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,560 right there - 389 00:30:56,560 --> 00:31:01,280 But how do you integrate faith and see everything from a Christian worldview? 390 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:07,240 and those people are coming in part-time and we don't always pay them the best money in the world and 391 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:13,520 And yet we're we have these you know high standards that we want to reach and so it 392 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:18,720 That creates a little bit of a dilemma for anyone in higher ed. Yeah. Yeah 393 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,640 at the end of the day, I mean our 394 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:29,960 So, I don't know if you guys have either one of you like national and the national enrollment levels at the Christian College level are we 395 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:35,640 Where are we? Like? How are we doing? We're we're we are out of space. Okay 396 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,640 We had to shut down we had to shut down 397 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:45,200 Emissions last year we were pacing ahead of even last year 398 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,040 and so 399 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,080 you know, we're 400 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,800 You know, we we bought up houses 401 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:59,640 We've done other things to just try to meet the demand for students at the at the bigger at the bigger picture 402 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:01,800 Is there? 403 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:08,600 Because I'm incredibly hopeful about this actually because I think there's a as the young people to say maybe a maybe a vibe shift going on 404 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:10,800 here but like is there a new 405 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:17,100 Is there a renewed interest in Christian education is there maybe a renewed 406 00:32:17,100 --> 00:32:25,120 Value I have heard from some young people where it's it's like I never would have considered this but I recognize like I 407 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:30,660 need this kind of community in my life for this this next this next phase because I have felt so 408 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:38,420 Distant or disassociated from a really good an intentional Christian community and this this this might be by the way 409 00:32:38,420 --> 00:32:45,320 People that it could vary whether they were directly connected with the Christian community at a congregation level or not 410 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,320 They're still having there's still those challenges 411 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,080 and 412 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,360 And there seems to be a renewed just a general renewed 413 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,680 interest in spirituality 414 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:02,840 Amongst amongst a certain age group and I we kind of feel that I'm really hopeful for that 415 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:12,520 So you guys here specifically and I wonder I think maybe there's other places that are like this if this kind of bigger conversation of 416 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:17,600 like are our Christian college is prepared to scale and 417 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,040 If not, what do we do it? Like what do we do about that? 418 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:25,280 if there is an a new wave of student coming in at a 419 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:32,320 Increase, you know increased level. I just I just wonder like not that we can tell the future but I wonder like what you know 420 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:34,680 What's the answer is there is there one? 421 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:39,160 well and you couple that with an interesting problem that 422 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:46,680 Some of the schools are are really diminishing and like you said, I don't know if it was Lincoln Christian College 423 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,840 It was I've been on that campus a hundred times. So 424 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:59,240 But you know you see some of these schools that are vanishing and obviously there are a lot of needs and and so 425 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:07,980 We do face some interesting demands, but I will say, you know, Indiana's got a lot of Christian colleges here, right? 426 00:34:07,980 --> 00:34:13,520 we've got several of them all within the a pretty narrow area of probably an hour and a half and 427 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:20,560 But not all have seen increases. Yeah, so yeah. Well, I I think 428 00:34:21,240 --> 00:34:25,160 You know as we're talking again just kind of big picture Christian College here 429 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:30,400 I there it sounds to me like there's a lot of a lot of reason to be hopeful for the for the future and a lot 430 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:32,080 of a lot of 431 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,260 reason to to invest in it and yet 432 00:34:35,260 --> 00:34:40,400 some just some discernment that has to that has to go on ahead of time and and 433 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:44,440 You know, I would I would offer this I'm guessing you guys would agree like 434 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:48,920 Make a lot of visits start your visiting process soon 435 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:52,800 Ask ask all the questions that you can ask 436 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:58,400 Interrogate you're gonna be spending a lot of time at this place wherever it is that you're going interrogate it 437 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:02,080 And and and find and find out and you know 438 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:07,760 For those of you listening as I sit across the table from these gentlemen here tonight that I can see they are ready for interrogation 439 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:16,400 They are they are they're the they encourage it. They welcome it. So so so come in come and do it and and and 440 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,600 really 441 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,800 You know the Christian education the Christian College 442 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:29,020 You know, we've had some discussion about you know people there we tend to think I know in my my college 443 00:35:29,020 --> 00:35:34,400 It was we trained ministers teachers and nurses, you know, and that's that's true for here at grace, too 444 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:39,640 That's a that's a big that's a big part of it. But again our future business leaders are 445 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:43,120 You know our future medical professionals 446 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:49,600 You know even beyond beyond nurse, you know in addition to nursing on all those sort of things all these different areas 447 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,240 and 448 00:35:52,240 --> 00:35:56,160 And really a Christian a Christian education in those in those spaces 449 00:35:56,160 --> 00:36:01,320 it just seems that we're able that it's able to offer a 450 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:06,120 kind of a more integrated approach I think that's that's the goal right because 451 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:12,920 Because if you're at a Christian college and you're sitting in a business management class, right there there is this 452 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:19,400 assumption that we're teaching business management through the mindset of how to do this as a Christ follower and 453 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,440 I've worked with a lot of people my friends who? 454 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,200 Who who never got that? 455 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:31,280 not ever got that assistance in their in their management training or or what or whatever and 456 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,720 It goes it goes a long way again you said Kevin 457 00:36:34,720 --> 00:36:39,240 I think you said a great like this whole idea of identity of identity who who we are 458 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:45,800 And pointing pointing people back because ultimately we're saying here putting back to them back to the core of the gospel 459 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:49,340 Really? I mean that that is that is at the core of it and I would say 460 00:36:49,340 --> 00:36:53,380 I'm guessing you guys would agree like for anybody that's thinking about Christian education 461 00:36:53,380 --> 00:37:00,320 Like maybe asking the question like how is the gospel impacting every single class here? What is its place? What is its purpose? 462 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:07,620 You know as you're thinking about that next that next stage for for your student or for our for our young people 463 00:37:07,620 --> 00:37:12,520 We have young people listen to this show - they're thinking about that. Maybe that's a that's a key question. So 464 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:18,340 Gentlemen, we're so grateful for this time with you. We can't end any episode without 465 00:37:18,340 --> 00:37:21,180 what we know as 466 00:37:21,180 --> 00:37:25,680 The dudes and dads pop quiz now, it's time for the dudes and dads pop quiz 467 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:26,820 All right 468 00:37:26,820 --> 00:37:32,360 So the pop quiz is essentially we ask you questions that are not related to anything with this episode just to get to know you 469 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:37,540 A little bit better - two questions each two questions each. Okay. All right. All right first question 470 00:37:37,540 --> 00:37:39,540 What book should I be reading right now? 471 00:37:39,540 --> 00:37:42,920 You both get to answer 472 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:47,280 There's so 473 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:54,160 My first book that I always would recommend is Andrew Murray's humility book, okay 474 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:58,480 Small yes, then as a humility book should be 475 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:03,660 One of the great reads but the first time you read it 476 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:09,740 It'll impact you the second time it'll have profound impact interesting interesting. I 477 00:38:09,740 --> 00:38:14,960 Would say I just got done reading Malcolm Guy. He's an Irish poet. He 478 00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:22,040 Came up with this collection of advent poems. I'm having an epiphany and then but it's not just his poems 479 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:25,560 it's like a collection of of lots of different poetry and 480 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:29,660 With with commentary as well. So I would really recommend that 481 00:38:29,660 --> 00:38:32,920 Malcolm Geitz 482 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:36,900 ITE his his his collection of advent poems 483 00:38:36,900 --> 00:38:44,180 Fantastic. Okay. All right, and I'm more of a technology person whereas Joel was more of a book type person 484 00:38:44,180 --> 00:38:50,320 So I'm gonna ask the question if you had to delete all but one app from your smartphone. What would you keep? 485 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:57,440 And the phone app itself doesn't count yeah, yeah, well now we'll let it function still as a phone 486 00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,880 The way got intended 487 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:02,880 I 488 00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:06,400 Love the ability 489 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:10,360 Through my banking app to take a picture of a check. Yes 490 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:14,580 Visits a bank anymore. I mean really I 491 00:39:14,580 --> 00:39:18,120 I'm so lazy 492 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:24,840 That's great that is that that is a very hard question 493 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:29,720 He's looking at his phone, right 494 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:32,120 Because I'm thinking he's trying to make a decision 495 00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:37,680 All right. All right, I would say I'm gonna do a game because that this would make it Star Wars galaxy of heroes 496 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:44,320 Okay, right. Okay much nerdier answer than I thought I might get so that's bonus points for that. That's fantastic 497 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:51,620 Okay. Well, thanks gentlemen. We you successfully passed the dudes and dads pop quiz. Well, well, well, well done. Well, hey friends 498 00:39:51,620 --> 00:39:53,620 We're so grateful for you listening in 499 00:39:53,620 --> 00:39:57,220 Thanks so much as always you can head over to the dudes and dads 500 00:39:57,920 --> 00:39:59,840 calm for 501 00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:02,940 Past episodes. Yeah present episodes our 502 00:40:02,940 --> 00:40:08,280 Merchandise feel free to get a get a hoodie get a hat and he's supporting the hat tonight on tonight 503 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:13,920 Yeah show notes all the good stuff. If you want to know more we'll make even our guests here on night 504 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:20,180 We'll make them embarrassingly easy to easy to find over at dudes and dads calm if you've got future show ideas 505 00:40:20,180 --> 00:40:22,220 What should they do Andy? 506 00:40:22,220 --> 00:40:26,000 Email us email us. Thank you. Remember the voicemail number, right? Yeah, so you can email us 507 00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:34,980 Dudes and dads pop dudes and dads podcast at gmail.com if you get future show ideas or a strong rebuke to send to us for 508 00:40:34,980 --> 00:40:38,740 The whatever it is that we put out on the internet and you're just uncomfortable with it 509 00:40:38,740 --> 00:40:41,700 Feel free to let us know why we should take it down 510 00:40:41,700 --> 00:40:47,000 That's never happened before so I keep once once excuse me what's happened one time 511 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:51,320 but just be there nothing too controversial, but 512 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:55,840 I keep on upping the ante on just trying to invite people to send us an email 513 00:40:56,720 --> 00:41:01,100 And we didn't we actually got a visit our last show we got a really nice email 514 00:41:01,100 --> 00:41:06,400 Did we get a nice email through somebody we did so no one sent us the rebukes. It's been all it's all been all nice 515 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:11,460 So far, that's fine, too. Okay. Well, hey everybody. We're so grateful for you listening. Thanks for hanging out with us 516 00:41:11,460 --> 00:41:13,640 And until next time we wish you grace happy 517 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:15,640 You 518 00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:17,980 (whooshing)