Welcome to, but for Real, a variety show podcast co-hosted by two therapists who

also happened to be loud mouth feminist.

I'm Valerie, your resident elder, millennial

child free cat lady.

And I'm Emerson, your resident, chronically online Gen Z brat.

And on the show we'll serve up a new episode every other week that will take

you on a wild ride through the cultural zeitgeist, mental health and beyond.

You'll

definitely laugh and TBH sometimes maybe cry a little because this

is a silly and serious show.

Buckle up my friends, and let's get into today's episode.

So we're here, we are in an office building listeners, and, um, they

have been doing construction on the little room next to our suite.

I

mean, for fucking ever, yes,

for like a 200 square foot.

How is it taking this long?

Have no idea.

Me neither.

So they're redoing the ceiling, the floors, I mean, they're everything.

They're spiffing it up.

They're like, we're between tenants.

We're gonna do it right.

Um, so they, they're still doing that and the door was like open.

There are a couple people inside working on it.

It's all it is is like construction shit.

But you know what's sitting right inside the door.

Frame A witches broom.

I saw that too.

Why?

Yeah, I saw they have all construction gear, but let, let's make sure we have a

little, it's not even the scented kind.

Mm-hmm.

It's witches broom.

Like they gathered like sticks.

I saw it when I went to the bathroom.

Yeah.

And they got wire.

I don't know.

From what, who knows?

Yeah, I'm here for this.

I'm like,

are they using witchcraft to like help?

'cause it's not working, honey.

Because if you can turn a spell out in there, I'm gonna need you

to soundproof that fucking wall.

Right.

And quickly.

Quickly.

We need better

spells.

Get like a Cinderella, mice.

In there.

Just get someone in there girl.

Right, because, so that's what we're working with.

That's

the vibes here today, you know, little bit

sinister.

Yeah.

Always a little bit fun.

But we're

coming into the fall.

Emerson's got our beautiful fall color.

I know.

It's not very

fall today.

I was like, good morning.

It's not 90 degrees.

I know.

Which is nice.

Well, do you wanna tell the people, uh, while I go get my sandwich,

which I'm very much going to eat on,

um,

tell our people who the lovely guest is today?

Yes.

We are so excited.

We have such an exciting episode today with our most.

Beautiful son, Tasha Wright.

Comer, LMSW 'cause she's educated honey.

Um, she is one of our beautiful sex informed therapists here at the

Gaia Center who believes healing and pleasure go hand in hand.

Yes, God.

A proud wife and mom of two.

Tasha brings warmth and realness into her work, especially when

supporting LGBTQIA plus and Bipoc communities in finding safety, joy,

and intimacy in their relationships.

When she's not in session, you can catch her in a dance class, shaking

with her mama gave her laughing with her family or researching the latest mods.

Four.

The Sims four.

Need to hear all about that.

Welcome to pepper mail.

Thank you for having me.

I'm so excited you're here.

Now it's time for our first segment, tea and Crumpets, where we tell you

what we can't stop talking about.

This week.

I'll kick us off.

Oh my God.

My mom and my stepdad are like big YouTubers, so they'll just log on.

They're like, what does it want us to watch now?

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

And they find all kinds of like really cool stuff.

And they had watched recently this documentary that turns out they didn't

even realize it was like brand new.

It came out less than two weeks ago.

Mm-hmm.

But YouTube was like, here, watch this.

And they loved it.

And so we're visiting over the weekend and they're like, Hey, why don't we just

show you like a few minutes of this?

And we were hooked and watched the full two hours.

Nice.

Because it was so good.

It's called Listers Listers.

Um, a glimpse into extreme birdwatching from the Reer brothers.

Um, Owen and Quentin.

Reer.

Reer?

Not sure.

Sure.

Thaer.

So funny.

It's mostly, one of them is sort of on the production behind the camera,

and then one of them is in front.

Mm-hmm.

They're like sleeping in a Kia Sorento.

For like trying to do this big year across North America,

list as many birds as possible.

I mean, they dove fully into this extreme birdwatching life.

Wow.

Dedicated their entire sleeping in Cracker Bear parking lot, like

the whole, not the Cracker Bee

gate, you know, but it's,

and it's so funny.

It's so brilliantly hilariously produced all these little Easter eggs like.

Such a good documentary.

Can't recommend enough, and it's streaming free on YouTube.

Listen, so go check it out.

That's cool's.

Yeah.

What about you?

Un bird watching.

Okay, so I was perusing Netflix as the modern people do, and I was

like, I need to, I just, I wanted to watch something a little different,

so I watched the unknown number.

The high school catfish, you just won't even fucking believe

heard was literally like this.

Like I, like I kind of knew it was coming, but I was still gagged at what.

Happened.

Mm-hmm.

Where, and just a very short premise.

It's exactly what it sounds like.

This girl, all of a sudden, this high schooler, she's like 14 years

old, starts getting a slew of daily.

Texts from like random numbers, she keeps blocking them.

Mm-hmm.

But it's like very personal shit.

So it's someone insular to this very small community that they're a part of.

Ooh.

Um, this, it was sinister.

I'm very, I think I read a

news article, so I think I know who it is.

Yes.

Won Spoil It.

No, it's, but I didn't know there was

documentary Disturbing.

Yeah.

And they, like the person that's involved is like on this documentary also.

Like they.

The person that did it was sending these messages.

Oh my God.

I, I literally was just, so I left.

Feeling disturbed.

Yeah.

Like, so it's kind of a tough watch, but it's like occupying my brain space and

I can't stop telling people about it.

So kind of dark, but I had to include it hard.

Yeah, yeah.

Scary.

Yeah.

The na, the word of the day is sinister

bad.

I'm like, the clouds, like,

I kind of woke up and I was like, shit, I'm scared.

Like it's giving like sinister lady Wimbledon, I think.

Am I right?

Like Bridgeton ish?

I need watch the

name Whistle down.

Oh, wi you say

Wimbledon.

Wait that up.

I need to be Lady Wimbledon.

Actually, I'm like, maybe that's just Serena Williams.

That's just

who you are.

That's just Serena

Williams I thinks.

Lady wi So cute.

Yes.

Whistle down.

Very, thank you.

Yes.

I'm getting the vibes.

Okay.

You have to go watch it.

'cause I already, I know the spoiler, but it's which.

Oh my God.

Okay.

Yeah.

I'm definitely gonna watch it.

Yes.

And we're all just.

Spoil it later.

You won't watch it?

No, I'm gonna watch it.

I'm gonna watch it.

What is your tea?

Yes.

Okay.

Okay.

Okay.

So my tea that I have been.

I'm missing progress notes on, sorry.

Um, I have been on the Sims four.

I love Sims and I'm actually a gamer in heart too.

Okay.

Love.

So that's why I'm in on the Sims four.

Mm-hmm.

Now mind you, I have been on Sims since I was like 13, 12 ish.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

But I just really recently got back into it with ah, mods, right?

Mm-hmm.

Specifically.

The wicked wind mods.

Uhhuh.

Oh my God.

Which is

like sexy sims.

Yes.

Okay.

But they allow you, because really in the basic pack with Sims.

Mm-hmm.

Like you really can't see their genitalia.

Sure.

But in wicked whales, are you talking

Barbie and Ken Smooth?

Yes.

Yeah.

Or they'll just have like the sensor.

Uh, like if they have to take a shower, they have the sensor, however, wicked

whims allow you to take the sensor off.

Okay.

And Uhhuh, and you get to modify like the genitalia.

Not only that, wow.

Uhhuh, you can actually kinda like.

I create like a, a placing also.

So they have the BS BDSM part come into play.

Mm-hmm.

Uhhuh.

Alright.

Uhhuh, they have the sex toys,

they have the, they

have

everything.

Wow.

Wow.

Wow.

Mm-hmm.

And, you know, it's only a matter of time until you hook that up to one of

the toys that we saw still where you're getting the principles stimulation along

with what's happening on the screen.

Right.

And if you remember when we, well, we went to the conference.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

And, um, when they had the toy, the video game out.

That's exactly what I talked to him about.

Mm-hmm.

Was adding the mod into like a physical part of it too, so you

can actually be part of the place.

That's so interesting.

With

the

Sims as well.

It makes me think, did you ever watch that episode of Black Mirror where

they're like, if they're doing vr.

Or maybe it spoiler least like two men are playing games on vr, but they end

up like having a sexual relationship.

Like through, I've heard of that vr.

Mm-hmm.

So I've never seen Black Mirror.

I've never

played this under a rock over here.

Black Mirror is scary.

I'm like the current reality.

I haven't been watching Black Mirror 'cause I'm like.

It's happening.

I was about to say, this sounds too real for me.

Okay.

Sims all with this team?

Yes.

Interesting.

Yes.

Okay.

Now it's time for step into my office where you get advice from.

Your favorite professionally qualified, personally peculiar therapist.

Dear Val and Tasha.

So here's the deal.

I've recently realized I'm super curious about kink.

Like I keep reading articles and secretly scrolling forums, and it

makes me feel excited, seen alive, but also cue the shame spiral.

I grew up with parents that never talk to me about sex or intimacy at all, and

now even as an adult, I feel embarrassed just thinking about this stuff, let

alone saying the word kink out loud.

I really wanna bring it up to my partner, but I'm terrified.

They'll either judge me, laugh at me, or think I've lost my mind.

At the same time, I don't want to keep this huge part of my

curiosity bottled up forever.

How do I dip a toe into exploring kink without drowning in shame or blowing

up my relationship in the process?

Sincerely, confused, but curious.

What do do you think?

Yeah.

Ooh, well.

Welcome to the kink world, right?

Um, so there's so many doors that you, I think you can go into when you're

embracing or just like discovering kink.

Um, so I think one door that you can kinda lean into would be sex doors.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

So one, the people who work there, they're very familiar with the products.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

So some of them even have training on like the sexual, the healthy sexual

lifestyle as well too, or what is that?

The um.

Uh, the safety parts, I'm just gonna say that.

Mm sure.

Right?

Yeah.

Safetyness of it.

So you're able to talk to them about some stuff and not feel

embarrassed, if that makes sense.

Yeah.

So that can actually be a safer route of like bringing yourself and

your spouse or partner, um, into the store and just kind of like.

Identifying some items like, Ooh, outta curiosity.

Yeah, right.

Like, oh, what does this curve dildo do you know?

Or what does this little spiky thing does?

You know?

And don't be afraid.

Of course, there's gonna be a lot of feelings coming into store depending on,

you know, your personality or your per, you know, but just come at it in, I think.

Full curiosity.

Mm-hmm.

If that makes sense.

Yeah.

That's where I would start.

I think the store is smart.

Yeah.

Like getting to go and, and having someone there in a way

takes the pressure off where the, someone knows their craft, right?

So they can say, oh, there's this and this, and they can

hopefully pace with you.

Like, I feel a very beginner, or I don't feel a beginner.

And then can show you product.

And then, I don't know.

The other part of just like with the partner, I guess just depends

on like their relationship dynamics.

But um.

I think it's totally okay.

I mean, I, I don't know how old this, um, listener is, but I think just like

being curious about the fact that like your sexual preferences and curiosities

can totally morph across your lifespan and like, that's actually totally

fine and perhaps some of these things can come up because you feel a lot of

safety in this relationship, or it's like very safe in the sexual realm of

the relationship to where you could.

Start thinking outside of the box instead of maybe fearing that you're bringing

this up to your partner in a way of, um, like, our sex life isn't enough.

I need to, and like it, like being, does that make sense?

Yeah.

Where like maybe some people would feel like, oh, you're bringing this up because.

What we're doing isn't enough.

But I'm like, actually, sometimes I don't feel that way.

I think this is kind of right.

I've loved this person or trust this person.

I'm so satisfied.

And so what about this other part of the relationship that like we could explore?

Yeah.

Like

additive, like as the would say, like stating it as a positive

need rather than like a deficit of like our sex life isn't exciting.

Right.

Your partner's probably gonna be a lot more receptive if

you're like, you know, I enjoy.

Aspects of our sex life and I would be really interested

in exploring, adding to it.

Mm-hmm.

And then you're sort of looking at like, whether it's like

a yes no, maybe inventory.

Mm-hmm.

Which you can like Google and find online.

Yeah.

Um, some examples of sexual inventories like that.

Or there's an app, I keep meaning to look it up.

I think it's called Spicer.

Oh yeah, yeah.

Where like you can answer like, here's what I'm into.

Mm-hmm.

And then it will only show both of you the ones that you like overlapped on.

Which is so cool.

I like that.

Um, so that way you don't have to be like worried about, oh my

God, what are they gonna think of me if they think I'm into this?

Mm-hmm.

I think there's very much, and it will, the app will explain it to you.

So trust the app more than me.

'cause I haven't used it yet, but that's what I understand.

And so I think that's just like a really cool thing of like.

Your partner doesn't need to be into all of the things that you're

exploring, but if they're into some of them, and then maybe there's some

that you can explore in your own, like self pleasure fantasy world.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Love that.

Okay.

And now it's time for the DSM.

In our DSM.

All varieties of dysfunction, spiraling, and meltdowns are welcome.

In this segment, we break down complicated concepts and common misconceptions

about mental health, wellbeing, and tell you what we really think.

So we are talking, not surprisingly about sex, sex therapy,

intersections of identity.

Mm-hmm.

With our wonderful guest today, and we'll start with exploring

some pleasure and desire ideas.

Mm-hmm.

So, of course I just, the, the laugh is what comes out when I

think of the state of sex education.

Yeah.

In this concert.

That's accurate.

It's better in some places than it was when, you know, ye elder

millennial was growing up.

But it is, you know, still largely about prevention, which is important of course.

Like, um, pregnancies, STIs, by the way.

Sidebar.

So gross.

Uh, what was I, was it a conference that I was at just recently for my school and

they were talking about like how research, you know, research is hard because there's

a lot that has to go into getting a study approved with IRB and everything.

Right?

Right.

And that.

They were like, you know, for the longest time you, you could not research

like teen pregnancy things like teen pregnancy 'cause you gotta get them

to opt in and all of the things.

Right?

Right.

And so a lot of states just wouldn't allow it.

Um, so it was only like finally like California and a couple of other,

more like progressive states and they were able to say, guess who's

getting the teen girls pregnant?

Guess who

the government.

Ah, well

ly with our lack of education.

Right,

right.

But no, it's like men and they're like thirties and higher.

Right.

It's like their fucking, you know, uncles and stepdads and shit.

Right.

Gross.

Yeah.

So that's what we learn if we actually researched stuff, um, about my

brand, like Short Circuited, I was like.

It's obviously disgusting.

It's usually not their teenage boyfriends, unfortunately, in

the way that we all play out.

Teenage

sex.

I had to just throw that

little tidbit in there now that, I mean, no, but that tracks I know.

So, you know, unfortunately, yeah, sex ed, hopefully we're learning about

pregnancy and STIs and guess what?

You know, this is another reason why we don't blame young girls

who get pregnant, is we don't know what the fuck their circumstances

are and how they got that way.

Right.

Right, right.

But hopefully we should be educating everyone.

Yes.

Um, but we're not educating certainly about pleasure.

Right.

No.

Um, and so I wondered, like, given the baseline of.

All the cultural myths and the lack of education about pleasure.

Mm-hmm.

How do you even begin to start conversations with your clients

who are coming in, going, I want to experience more pleasure, but

I don't even know where to start.

Yeah.

So I actually, and this is gonna be weird when I say this, but I kind

of go back into like some of the.

Uh, like activities that we used to do as like pre-K.

I know it's weird.

Yeah, I know.

It's weird.

Yeah.

But it's, you know how they ask like, what's your favorite color?

Right?

Yeah.

Uh, what's your favorite food?

Mm-hmm.

What's all these favorite things?

Then I go in and ask, well, why do you like that?

Right.

So, what sensation do you get from eating that ice cream?

I wanna go with ice cream because I love a good ice cream.

Yes, indeed.

Right, right.

So I love the coldness of it.

I love the taste of it, especially the vanilla taste with some sprinkles.

Oh.

And Oreos.

But I love the taste of that.

Right?

Why do I love the taste of that?

Yes.

Well, because it creates this sensation in my body.

Ah, now we're getting somewhere.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

So that's how I kinda lean into that.

And then we go into like the intimacy sexual route of it all too.

And that's where they then realize, usually at that point where they're

like, oh, I never asked these questions about myself before.

And that's how I usually like to start out with.

Mm-hmm.

I love that.

It is, it's so much less intimidating.

'cause I think when people walk in and they're just like, oh my God,

this topic that is so loaded mm-hmm.

That has also maybe like brewed conflict in the relationship.

Yeah.

And maybe like misplaced blame and all and shame and all of that.

Right.

That like, it has to start with, well, how do I find out what I like?

How do you find out what you like about anything?

Right.

Right.

And, and that like learning those cues of like mm-hmm.

Ooh, okay, I like this type of sensation, or I like this feels

pleasurable in just a sensual way.

Right.

And then we can start to translate that to this more like advanced kind of territory.

Yes.

I love that.

Yeah.

Cool.

Um, are there any myths about pleasure or desire that you

often find yourself debunking?

Yes.

Um.

So we get in a territory of like selfishness.

Mm. When we talk about like, pleasure and of course America, fuck yeah, right?

America kind of leans into this, uh, thing of it's noble of you to suffer

Marty martyrdom,

right?

Mm-hmm.

And I, I think because of that then it's like, I'm.

People are creating this narrative that pleasure is bad.

Mm-hmm.

And that means that you're very selfish.

Yeah.

And I have to help others kind of unlearn that.

Mm-hmm.

You know what America taught us a bit.

Um, so I have to debunk that myth.

Mm-hmm.

That you are deserving of pleasure and it's not selfish.

I mean, really, can we look at the word selfishness also and

the negative connotation that it kind of gives to a little bit.

Because self care, selfish, I have to also go into that realm of things too.

Mm-hmm.

And I think one, it's okay for you to embrace like that self-care.

Right.

Right.

And I think pleasure is self-care as well too, so Yeah.

Yeah.

Maybe if the selfishness is still giving like a native connotation

to it, switch it up to self care, you are deserving of that pleasure.

Yeah.

Now I think it becomes a, a concern when you're deeply like.

Losing responsibilities, right?

Or you're not going to work because you're indulging in pleasure.

Okay, now, now you can come to us, right?

Come to us, right?

But it's okay to at least allow yourself to embrace and feel pleasure, and

just enjoy and be present in that.

Yeah, like people, it's so easy for us to fall into the false dichotomy.

Mm-hmm.

Of like, if I'm asking for something more from my partner or mm-hmm.

Like, because I want maybe more pleasure, I'm not getting in

what's happening here or whatever.

That, that, that makes me selfish.

And it's like, well, sure it's selfish if you're not also

curious about their pleasure.

Sure.

You're only thinking about your pleasure.

Like it's, that's the reciprocity of it.

Right.

Right.

Is like when we're in doing this in relationship, like, I should care

about my pleasure and your pleasure.

And you should care about your pleasure and my pleasure.

Right.

And it's a pleasure party.

Um, pleasure party.

Yeah.

And I think your desire, I mean, I think we did a whole episode

on, on Desire, so I won't go like too heavy into it, but I think.

The biggest thing there is like the understanding there's no such thing as

like a normal setting of desire, right?

Right.

That it's more, the challenge is just when it's different between partners and

then navigating that difference, which is something that, you know, a great sex

therapist is really good at helping with.

Um, but it's not just because your desire might be lower or whatever,

or higher, like no one is broken.

It's just about figuring out how to make it work with

yourself or with your partner.

Yes.

Hmm.

Okay.

So is there someone listening who feels disconnected from their pleasure?

Is there anything other than like just starting to get curious about,

you know, what do I like in general?

Is there anything you would sort of advise them to do to start to get

connected with a sense of pleasure?

When you say connected, I was thinking get connected for free education connection.

Mm-hmm.

Um, that's my other mind going, but um, I think.

Mm.

Start identifying today.

Yeah, start identifying, I think what you like to do, almost kind

of like having, I talked to another client about this before, but having

a day of like just self love and.

Just seeing how that feels for you that day I think

sounds like almost like being a detective.

Yes.

Yeah.

Like do a bunch of things you might enjoy and just collect some data.

Yes.

Uhhuh.

I would actually start out with that actually, and it's almost like.

Like we talked about the ice cream approach, but doing it at a max,

if you want to have any type of structure, you utilize, uh, the love

language and do that for yourself.

Sure.

Right.

That make sense?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Cool.

Cool.

Okay.

All right.

Let's move into some, you know, of the realm of like kink sexual expression.

So I wanna know.

How do you explain or talk about kink with clients that may only know or like

have preconceived notions about what kink is Through pop culture stereotypes?

Mm-hmm.

Or like the 50 shades of gray of it all, where like that seemingly

has defined the entire genre of kink in like the pop culture realm.

But there's so many elements and there's so much history behind it.

Kind of what's your, what's your t what's your approach when someone's

like throwing the K word in there?

Yeah.

I, when explaining it, I always explain it as a community.

Hmm.

Um, that I think a lot of folks, just, all of us in general, I think need

to learn a little bit more about.

Because within this community, it has so much already education

and consent, boundaries.

Mm-hmm.

Um, even aftercare as well too.

And also communicating like your needs and your desires and your pleasure also.

Um, so looking at it in a way of full of community, um, but then

also just kind of like, um, yeah, I think embracing that moment of.

That diversity as well too, of like, what do I like, what do I dislike as well?

Mm-hmm.

And then leaning on someone who actually had the same kinks as you or have the same

likes as you as well, if that makes sense.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

I feel like then being able to, I don't know, like my mind

immediately thinks of Reddit, right?

Yeah.

Where like, just like very rope, like such a place of like robust information.

Yes.

With like specific subcategories.

So if you're like curious about one thing, then.

Yeah, having a little bit of like self homework of going and reading what

people are talking about there or mm-hmm.

If there's like a frequent answers and questions, you know, component

where it's, yeah, just like being open to like some of, starting in

like the educational, I don't know, like knowledge is power to me always.

Also, that's my like way of coping always.

If I know something about it, maybe it feels less scary, which

I think is for most people.

So being able to know.

Also where to go can help someone feel safe or empowered?

Um, what are some of those cultural and or like clinical misconceptions about

kink that you may have encountered whether a client is bringing it in

or more in like a professional realm?

Because I think obviously there's.

Cultural aspects, but in a clinical way where we can talk about kink.

I think there's a lot of misconceptions about what that

looks like in clinical work

too.

Right.

Um, one of the misconceptions that I always hear is that folks who are

abused or go through trauma mm-hmm.

Um.

Go into kink, like sure.

People who are into kink are, have been traumatized now we're trauma.

That's the reason they're that way.

Right, right.

Or interested.

Yeah.

Right.

And I like, I like to use metaphors.

Uh, if you're my client, you know, I'm gonna use a metaphor.

Mm-hmm.

But would, would you say the same thing for folks who go like dance's?

Or you know, no you wouldn't.

No.

Oh, but San Tasha, but they're not asking their dance partner to choke them.

So if it makes sense, I mean, they may

right I the dance,

I dunno,

but, but it's.

If we go into that dance C realm of it all, you are asking your

partner to lift you, right?

You are and kink in the kink community.

You are asking someone to support you and to be seen and to accept.

I would like

to eng engage.

I would like to ask you to do this to my body or with my body, and I

would like to do this with your body.

Right.

It goes into that discussion of kink and I mean, it goes into

that discussion of consent.

Yeah.

And boundaries.

And I mean, for the folks who are outside of kink, I mean the abuse

and trauma are, is still happening.

Yeah.

Even more so.

Is it really kink or is it just society?

But that's, yeah, that's another thing,

right?

Yeah.

And I've heard of like there was a therapist or former therapist,

now she works more in the sexual, sexual wellness like product space.

Who was saying like.

Hey, I've tried to connect with therapists and market like basically my BDSM

products, and they don't wanna talk to me because they just, they have that

mentality of assuming that, no, this is just encouraging my clients to continue

this sort of repetition of their abuse.

And she's like, how do I, how do I like overcome that obstacle?

And I was like, find different therapists to talk to.

Right, right, right.

Because we're not all that way.

We don't all have that sort of misunderstanding, but that's part

of what our educational programs.

Need to get better at with like basic sex therapy 1 0 1 is like these,

these preferences are not pathologies.

Like yes, we have to consider consent and safety.

Right?

But a preference does not have to be a pathology that is trauma based

regardless whether that person has or hasn't experienced trauma.

Right?

Sure.

Actually met no time, but I actually met, um, a pain therapist during,

um, another podcast I'm working with, with Harris Howard Homes.

Um.

But he was, he called himself a pain therapist and he actually

utilized, um, and I told him he did.

Um, but I think it was, um, internal family systems.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but he used fire play Yeah.

In a way.

And he actually, uh.

Uh, let us experience that as well too.

Mm-hmm.

And it was actually amazing just to kind of feel that sensation, but then

also I saw how he utilized that internal family system along with it as well too.

So, in a way, some of that aspects of it is actually a bit

healing also and empowering.

Yeah.

So, and

you'll hear that from, from clients, right?

Right.

Who often who are talking about like their sexual healing or whatever type

of trauma healing that a lot of times.

What they do in their, with their sex life, whether it's kinky or not, right?

Mm-hmm.

Can be a big way of reclaiming power,

right?

Indeed.

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Some of those things that you were mentioning about, um, you know,

that it's not always synonymous with abuse and things like that.

How, what is the differentiation between healthy kink expression and then some

of the potentially harmful dynamics?

In communication to clients.

So if someone's bringing in something and saying, Hey, this is kink, and you're

thinking, well, maybe I'm looking for this, or, um, yeah, what do you look for?

How do you communicate that?

Yeah.

Um, the purpose of getting into it.

So I always ask when it comes to, um, kink or, um, I think when it comes

to something else, I always ask too.

Um, sorry, my mind's going everywhere, but.

What is the purpose of you indulging this lifestyle?

Where does this come from?

Mm-hmm.

Where was the foundation of it all?

And we lead into, oh, well I, I got into this because I felt safe, or

I got into this because actually a boyfriend let me into this lifestyle.

Mm-hmm.

And you know, he was a bit controlling.

Ah, okay.

Now I'm hearing some words coming up.

Right.

Then I kind of go a little deeper and kind of like my investigative therapist

hat kind of comes into play, right?

Mm-hmm.

Of asking.

Well, were you able to kind of communicate your boundaries prior to like playing?

Yeah.

Like were you able to do all these things?

And then we get into, well, no, I never knew I, I needed to do that.

Mm-hmm.

Ah, okay.

Ready?

Like my little Yeah.

Spidey therapist senses are we be tingling.

Yeah.

Right.

Um, versus healthy lifestyle, they would answer, well yeah, we talked about

boundaries, we talked about this and this.

I'm able, and I feel comfortable enough

Yeah.

That if something changed, I'm able to communicate that to my

partner or to my play partner.

You know?

Yeah.

So that's how I can be able to kind of like, decipher, okay, are you, are we

embracing this lifestyle in a healthy way?

Yeah.

Or is it something that could be, you know, nonproductive or unhealthy?

I have a, a, a follow-up question related to that, that I'd

love both of y'all's input on.

So part of where.

But there's a lot that I've had to unlearn and unpack and like decondition, you know?

'cause I, in the past, I, you know, many years ago, I would've probably

thought like, oh, if someone experienced sexual trauma, now they're doing BDSM.

Like mm-hmm.

Oh, maybe it's just because they're, and then if they heal,

then they won't want that.

Right.

Like, so I've, I've deconditioned a lot.

Um, 'cause we always need to be like, growing mm-hmm.

And checking our, our biases and blind spots.

But one that I still struggle with admittedly, is.

Like, let's say if a couple or whatever, like a constellation of people, um, is

doing this like dom sub dynamic mm-hmm.

But not just in the bedroom and they sort of do their relationship that way.

Mm-hmm.

And that's where like the feminist in me or whatever, right.

Like the person who's like powerless now power over.

Mm-hmm.

Like, I, I get really, like, I, I wouldn't be the therapist for that person.

I would refer them out just.

Because I wouldn't be able to be as unbiased, I feel like, as I'd need

to be and And I could imagine that there would be, that would be one of

those that could go either way, right?

Mm-hmm.

Maybe there is a way of doing that in a way that is.

Um, ecologically sound for each person.

Mm-hmm.

And like truly works for them, but they could also easily take a

slippery slope into a bad place.

Right?

Sure.

Mm-hmm.

So, I'm just curious, like any thoughts that you'll have about that, about when

that sort sort of power or dynamic exists?

Not just in the bedroom, but outside.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Hmm.

Hmm.

I'm also like mentally reviewing like different clients that I've worked

with around kink because there's, there was someone at some point where

I believe that element was present and so it did take some kind of me like,

Hey, can I be like asking questions?

Are you also consenting to that?

Yes.

Where, you know, 'cause a couple of times maybe it pinged for me

where it was, you know, around, um.

Like around finances.

So like that was where again, my own kind of my internal feminist

or my spies were like, Hey.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but they had a very pure, like a day caller and like that dynamic was like very

ever present throughout their household.

And they also had two.

So I wondered what it was like in that realm, but it, it was very,

the two of them had a ton of, um.

They, they had conversations often.

Cool.

Yeah.

So there was constant conversations, kind of like temperature checking

around certain things around division.

They had very clear expectations about division of labor and

finances and what that looked like.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, really there was just like a ton of openness between the two of them

and this client, you know, we was very happy in this aspect of the relationship

and was reporting always a lot of.

Good.

And then of course would come in and was like, Hey, piss me off.

We had a fight, right?

And I was like, okay.

So I, even with those things was interesting to me where it was like, okay,

you had a fight and where there was still like egalitarian things where like we're

both seeking repair or things like that.

So it was, it was kind of only the individual client that I've worked with

where that was pretty present for so far.

But it was.

Healthy.

And I

feel like that's a really, like we need to hear examples like that.

Yeah.

Right.

Because, and I think therapists need to know that if that client

like walked into your office like she did on some days mm-hmm.

Going like, oh we had a fight.

It's important not to jump to assuming that that dynamic is the problem.

Right.

Because it might actually just be some other normal relationship shit.

Right?

Yeah.

Right.

So that's really helpful for me to hear and.

Just, I think another thing that's maybe important, and then I wanna hear

what you wanna add too, but like is, I think one thing I learned, um, kind

of in that space is like the person who's quote unquote submissive, right?

Whether it's sexual or maybe in this other relational dynamic,

um, holds a lot of power.

Yes, I was just

about to say that.

Yes.

So sounds through that.

Yes.

Like what did

make it make sense?

Yeah.

Because.

Uh, dismiss.

Being a submissive person requires understanding your

boundaries and also communicating those boundaries as well too.

Mm-hmm.

And I also having trust in that partner as well, to be a dom and to have power over

yourself the way that you want it to be.

So innocence, when you're talking about feminist approach too, which I hear

you, it's almost as if, if we are going as a, a person who is fem, who is.

In a submissive role.

Right.

If we're going that route, that person also has power to choose.

Right, right.

Which is kind of leaning into that dynamic as well too, right?

Being, having uh, the ability to choose and then also be heard and happy as well.

Yeah.

And when you were talking about that, I was listening in for like the happiness

and openness of it all, and that really counts, I think, within itself too.

Yeah.

So.

Yeah, that's what I have to add to that.

Yeah, that

consent and like the open roles of communication, all of those

things obviously go into like any sexual relationship, right?

And like non-sexual parts of a relationship where, you

know, what are you, what are you, what are the boundaries?

What are you leaning into?

What does it look like?

And I think that's really.

Those principles that are very esteemed in kink community, right, are transferable

to relationships in general, which is where people get it confused, right?

Where we think it's just an in complete disempowering of

someone, or right punishment, or they're acting out something that.

You know, has davian.

Yeah, yeah.

There is still that prudish.

Yeah.

Yeah.

America is quite prudish, you know, like we have evangelicalism just

like through those veins, honey.

Mm. Mm-hmm.

So it does take a little bit of that, you know?

Woo.

America is, I mean, I, I just feel like going on a tangent because it's

like you're driving on the highway and you see this cool sculpting billboard

right next to the McDonald's billboard.

You see the strip club billboard right next to the church,

but it's like we are walking.

It's a fun house.

Yes,

we are.

You know, that's what happens when you live

in the either or the polarities and the extremes is like you

missed the fucking point of it all.

Indeed.

The roses.

Anyway,

I digress.

So looking at like the intersection of identities.

Hmm.

Um, what are some of the common themes or struggles that you see

with clients' identities around race, gender, sexuality, faith,

like how all those things intersect.

'cause there's a lot that shows

up there.

Yeah.

So, ooh, so many stuff that shows up.

Mm-hmm.

Um, if we can, when it comes to the faith part, of course it's

like one, so of course faith is like the church and religion.

We're not going to do a lot of.

Conversations about sex.

Mm-hmm.

It is just going to be around abstinence.

Mm-hmm.

So when we're taught, right?

Mm-hmm.

So when I talk about kink is like, no.

Right?

Mm-hmm.

That part of my clients kind of show up.

Yeah.

And when really I have to talk to some of my clients who I identify

themselves as, like Christian.

Within that faith, I have to kinda say, well.

First starting off with a, God gave you this clitoris.

If God gave you this, this, uh, nerve ending to a penis.

Come on, Tasha.

Mm. I don't even

know the gland, gland penis.

I know it's the head, but it's got

a lot of nerves on it.

It sure does, right?

Is it the frenulum?

It's like that I the back.

Oh yeah.

The back

part.

You need to restudy my, my biology study.

How do you go back to the, the paper, right?

Yeah.

Um, sorry.

Penis

hours.

For learning, but um.

Hey, why did God give us all these things for us not to embrace?

Sure.

And then only that too, God also gave us these ideas of kinks and, you

know, and really kind of start all the way in, in history as well too.

We just try to hide it depending on who's in power.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

But we have the, the power to look into that.

We, I have to, I have to help my clients kind of unlearn those certain parts.

Um, I can speak for myself as a black woman.

Uh, when it comes to me bringing up kink, it's, oh, you on that freaky shit.

Right.

Right.

And yeah, kink can be a bit freaky, however, it shouldn't still, it has that

taboo around just sex in general also.

Sure.

Even more so I have to kind of go into the realm of helping my clients kind of

unpack that and then saying, we actually.

Are in power even more.

Mm-hmm.

So I go on this tangent of how much pleasure we have not been

able to entail because we have been taught as black people.

Mm-hmm.

That, oh, we're lazy.

We're this, we're that.

No the fuck we're not.

And we are deserving of pleasure.

Rest is activism.

Kink is activism as well too.

So I go into that spill as well.

So depending on what my clients bring in,

yeah.

We go into this spill of unlearning and leaning on the,

the side that oppresses it.

Yes.

Oh

yeah.

Mm. You're speaking bell hooks.

You're speaking Adrian Marie Brown.

Like I love it, Andre Lord.

Um, yeah, I think that's incredible and for people to see, like,

one thing I know about you and how you show up with clients.

Is 'cause you know, a lot of these people might be, they're coming for some help

with their sexuality in some capacity.

Right?

But maybe if they're also coming from a religious background, like.

You, you gotta, you gotta go at their pace, right?

You're treading lightly.

You're not just like dropping in here like, Hey, maybe you're kinky.

Right?

Right.

Like, you know, you're like, subtly, like opening cabinets and drawers.

Mm-hmm.

Like, hmm, have we checked out what's in here?

Like, you know, and doing that in a way that is approachable.

Right.

Because it's not about, just because for you, you're like, yeah, kink

is liberation and, and kink is a form of sort of pleasure activism.

Like if that doesn't resonate for someone, like it's fine if

they're vanilla, that's cool too.

Right?

Right.

But it's just like, what are they coming for support with?

And you're helping them like open all of the possibilities to explore.

Right, right.

That's exactly it.

Mm-hmm.

I love it.

Um, let's see.

What do you think that the sex therapy field in general.

Still needs to do better in terms of inclusivity, cultural

competence, intersectionality, faith inclusion, whatever.

Yeah.

Um, financial accessibility.

I'm going to speak real a little bit.

Yeah, for real.

Uh, for real.

I think when I was leaning well, looking into like the sex

certification schools mm-hmm.

And whatnot too.

Um, I saw the cost of it all and really.

I, I saw why there wasn't a lot of biopsy sex therapists in general, and it was

because of the financial accessibilities and how much it costs, and now things

are getting kind of more expensive.

Mm-hmm.

Now we're about to kinda lose a little bit of some of these clinicians that

are really good because of that.

Mm-hmm.

So I think making some, and I know that probably some I need

to do more, I think research.

But from what I've seen is just that financial accessibility part I

think needs to happen, I think, and then that will actually open up more

doors for diversity within the film.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Totally hear that.

And it's, yeah, it's interesting.

So for listeners who don't know, it's like anyone can.

Do therapy with, you know, if, if you have that mental health education and

credential or license or whatever, like any therapist, Karen should be

talking about sex with their clients.

Right, right.

Yes.

Like so you know, it'll come up.

Yes.

They told me in school, sex

will come up and so will alcohol and drugs.

So you gotta know A little bitty,

yeah.

Better be ready to enter into that conversation a little bit.

Yeah.

And sometimes it's, we have to at least open the door to that

conversation because our clients either.

Are too nervous to, they don't know if they're quote unquote supposed to.

Right.

Talk about that here.

Right.

And so we've gotta open those doors so anyone can.

And also there is, you know, as sec, the American Association for Sexuality

Educators, counselors and therapists, just sort of the, you know, gold standard

body of, uh, credentialing in our, in the sex therapy education world.

And what San is talking about is.

You know, once you've gone and dropped already, like 50 grand on your grad

school education right now, they want you to come back and drop 10 more Right.

In two years of your life on this additional certification.

Right.

Which is just, you know, already after someone's already climbed

through all of the other obstacles.

So it's, it's tough.

Um, that reminds me, there's one, um, I have to look it up because.

I can't remember off the top of my head.

I want it was not Bueller, Bueller, Lerer, something like that though.

I'll look it up.

But one of my sex therapist friends here is going through them and part of

why she chose that program is 'cause there was some level of, of scholarship.

Um, and so I'm not, if they've got a career scholarship, they've

gotta have a BI scholarship.

Yeah, we'll look into that.

But, but yes, it is, it is not.

Uh, easy and it's where is that line between gatekeeping in a positive

way of quality of care, right?

We want these people to like get the training and education like deeply, but

also gatekeeping in the sense of if we.

If we make it inaccessible, then how are we gonna have great, you know, BIPOC

and you know, people in this field.

Right.

And shout out to Martha Coupa.

Kie.

Kie.

Yep.

You know, I'm fucked up her name,

but Martha's that girl I, yeah, she really

is.

I love her training and she's.

Thank you for introducing me to hurt you.

Mm-hmm.

Because I was able to dive into Yeah.

The sex therapy realm of things and actually feel confident enough to

say I'm a sex informed therapist.

Yes.

You know?

So Thank you.

Reach.

Okay.

Yeah.

Delivering.

I would love to, ah,

yeah.

Our identities, faith, families, culture, all leave their fingerprints on how we

experience intimacy, desire, and shame.

But here's the truth.

Your pleasure and relationship to sex and intimacy can, can

be whatever feels good to you.

So whether you're curious about kink, questioning old beliefs, or just learning

how to want what you want, you are not alone and you deserve a damn good time.

Damn right.

Damn right.

Yes.

Okay.

Okay.

And now our musical segment.

Now, that's what I call, where Emerson and I each share a song with each

other each week as representatives of our respective generations.

We tell you a little bit about the song or artist, and then we press pause,

we share the song with each other, and then we come back for our live reaction.

And we're capturing it all on a Spotify playlist link in the show notes for you.

So tell us a little bit about what song you picked.

Mm-hmm.

Why?

If you want, and then we will live, watch it.

React and Kiki and ha ha.

Yes.

So I actually picked Dolce.

Yes.

I

love good Dolce.

I love it.

I love her.

And, um, the name is Persuasive.

Okay.

And I really, really love it.

Um, I'm a music girl.

I love.

Just her.

I love rhythm and I'm really leaning into like neo soul r and b. Cool.

And house music as well.

Whoa, Uhhuh.

So, okay.

Whenever I hear any like house beat, like it goes, takes me back to that

high school days, back when I was at my performing arts high school

and how we was just dancing and.

How to see folks like VOing and just Yes,

just ballroom everything.

Oh, yeah.

So every time I hear the song, it just makes me wanna just like, I

can't ballroom for shit, right?

Oh, neither.

I can't vogue, but.

I didn't wanna do it with

that.

Oh, same.

I'm voguing in my mind.

Same.

It's giving embodiment.

Yes.

Yes.

Deeply.

Yes.

Wow.

I mean, just She's a

visionary.

Truly.

Truly.

Like

the song alone is great, but then the video.

The video, how many hours went into costume?

Costume and hair makeup design, and then just getting into all

of the costume hair and makeup.

It's giving days.

Yeah, it's

giving

dates.

Dates,

maybe weeks of shooting this video.

Yes.

Thank goodness she's really starting to get her flowers

too, which like, thank God.

Yes.

You know, I was trying

to explain to Chris, Chris, if you're listening, the getting

someone getting their flowers.

He didn't know.

He didn't know.

Oh, I know.

He's such a white man.

So cute.

I love you.

I need to do like bootcamp, verbal bootcamp with Chris, please and any

other millennials you have in your life.

I'll be like, he

would be a like a young Gen Z, I mean Gen X. Oh, excuse me.

Yeah, very Gen X.

He's even a layer more hopeless than me.

Oh dear.

Well, I'll work with it.

There are some words I'm learning too.

There's

hope you know, for everyone.

Speaking of hope.

And now for our last segment of the show, welcome to Fire Dumpster Phoenix.

It is rough out there, y'all.

And we need all the hope we can get.

It's time to go dumpster diving for some positive news and rise from the

leftover happy meal ashes together.

So what, what kind of hope are you diving for recently?

Em

um, I pulled the story 'cause I was just like, you're kidding.

So a mile long table.

Just imagine this.

A mile long table in Denver, Colorado.

Thousands of people show up because they want to eat dinner together and connect.

Shut up.

Nice.

How you children

And Beautiful.

So from the nonprofit longer tables, whose mission is to bring

connection amongst people through shared food and experiences, hosted

the first ever mile long table with around 3,400 locals who signed up.

Wow.

The 5,280 foot table.

Surf produce from local farmers and hundreds of volunteers showed up to

like, put this on help, like surf food, just like keep things moving.

So.

It's just like so community oriented.

And, uh, they had Southwest Airlines like as a sponsor I guess, which

I was kind of like, am I kind of pissed with Southwest recently?

Yes.

So I was like, oh, I kinda had to swallow to put this one on there.

Right.

Um, but they sponsored this event by flying 10 individuals out

to reconnect with loved ones.

So someone in the article said that their friend had just graduated

like from college or their master's program or something.

And so they were.

Picked.

So they got to be with their friend and celebrate the sing whilst like

connect with so many new people and strangers and they really loved it.

And so I just pulled a quote from a ref that said the energy at the

mile long table was infectious.

We believe that community is more than a place.

It's the heart of what brings us all together.

I just love that.

I thought that was so sweet.

We need these little gems in these times.

I tell you.

We need it.

Okay.

Val, what's your good news?

So I mentioned, I visited my mom and stepdad.

Yes.

And I'm like sitting at the table yesterday going, I need, I need

a fire dumpster Phoenix, mom.

You need help for me.

And she, she just like Drew, she's like, how about who gives a crap?

Um, oh.

So I think we originally introduced them to this brand years ago.

Um, so it's, it's a company that makes toilet paper as

their like flagship product.

Mm-hmm.

But they also make some other like.

Uh, you know, paper towels and Kleenex and stuff.

Yeah.

Um, but we get the bamboo toilet paper, so it's like, you know, renewable.

Mm-hmm.

But get this, like, the company is so cool their, first of all,

their mission statement is we're here to un craft the world.

And, but, so here's some, some bits from their website.

They said, without proper sanitation systems like toilet.

Waste ends up in the water.

In water communities use for drinking, cleaning, and bathing.

Using contaminated water can lead to all kinds of infections and

diseases, many of which can be fatal, but it's totally preventable.

Access to clean water and a toilet could save 1.4 million live.

A year.

Wow.

So they've been around for a while doing this.

They say it all started with 50 hours on a toilet and a dream.

Actually it started when we learned and billions of people don't have

access to clean water in a toilet.

Oh.

Um, that's, we decided to create our unique business model, 50%.

Of profits donated to help the billions of people in need.

So they crowdfunded their original, their first production run.

Wow.

Their CEO, Simon sat on a toilet for 50 hours until they had

reached their $50,000 goal.

Epic.

My husband, the hemo.

Yeah.

No, I'm like, call local.

Call a local man.

Why just sit for 50 pounds?

The toilet.

So they, you know, made a bunch of toilet paper and at this point

they have donated over $12 million.

Oh my God, to date.

Um, they said, hold your applause.

We prefer a pat on the bum.

How Tiki, and they're both B Corp certified, which is like the highest

standard of environmental and social impact that a corporation can get.

And they're also Fs.

C certified, ensuring the proper management of our planet's.

Forests.

So who gives a craft love?

You been buying our toilet paper from them for years.

Highly recommend.

Who gives a crap?

Kind of everyone I know.

Okay.

To round out this episode 'cause we've had so much fun

today we have to pew, pew, pew.

Do a little rapid fire q and a. So Natasha, so I'm gonna blast

off some burning questions.

Okay.

And you just roll with what comes to the dome right away.

You ready, Freddy?

Okay.

If you could wave a magic wand and change one dominant

cultural narrative around sex,

what would it be?

Um, oh, this supposed be rapid fire.

Um.

It would be to release the taboos.

No taboos.

Mm. Fuck the taboo.

Fuck the taboo.

Fuck the taboos.

Okay.

Love it.

What is the most underrated form of intimacy that isn't talked about enough?

Um, underrated form of intimacy.

I would actually, this is gonna sound so vanilla.

It's okay.

But vanilla's fine, not vanilla.

Okay.

Can be underrated.

Right.

Um, I think really just.

Cooking for someone, honestly, or just, you know, just that

supportive aspects of it.

Yeah.

Um, I'm, I'm always going into love languages 'cause that's

where I start with my clients.

Sure.

But I like that, uh, that word of affirmation,

embracing all of those things.

I think that that's the most underrated thing.

Cooking

a meal for someone.

That's beautiful.

Yes.

And I like sensual too.

Okay.

If pleasure were either a color, flavor, or texture to you, what would it be?

Um, a sparkle.

Ooh.

Sparkle.

Mm-hmm.

Uhhuh or that

iridescent color.

Yes.

Right.

I love that.

Oh, see, I love asking people this.

'cause pleasure to me.

Is velvet purple?

I can see.

I love that too.

Why did my brain go straight to chocolate though?

Okay, chocolate C is

good.

C, get my chocolate donut on my, oh,

okay.

What form of media, either a song show, art piece, anything captures desire

in a way that resonates with you?

Hmm.

Um, I'm gonna go back to Doce.

Yeah.

Uh, sure.

Um, or should I go to Talent Creative Creator?

Mm. The reason I'm going back and forth is because, uh, the speed rapid fire, um.

It's one of their songs, I forgot, but one of their songs, um, it actually

emulates like desire and it talks about also like in a healthy way as well.

Now some of the things can have that financial foundational

approach to like being unhealthy.

Yeah.

But I know some of their songs are kind of like dimming from like, I just

like to be around a certain person.

Mm-hmm.

Or I just like to feel their warmth or, um, I forgot the song

by Tyler creator, but I think it's called something about Jane.

Think it's a Jane worded song.

Mm-hmm.

But it kind of goes into play of, uh, a cancer patient who, um, a person

who had cancer, they edit that.

A person who has cancer.

Who just wanted just to sexually explore, and he was, he

wanted to support her in that.

Hell yeah.

So he was writing a letter like, Hey, I, we,

we,

we did good.

Like,

which by the way, to just interrupt your own rapid fire for a second, it's

like reminders of people that people who have cancer, people who are terminally

bad, have disabilities, people who have.

All these people remain to be sexual beings.

Like they're not like these people that are elderly.

Like, oh no.

Right.

People think they, elderly ain't fucking there.

I know, right?

They fucking, and they got the most std, so that's nothing heard.

I'll tell you

what, some condoms.

Mm-hmm.

All right.

Final question.

Okay.

If you had a sex positive billboard in the heart of downtown

Nashville, what would it say?

Make Nashville come again.

Holy shit.

She

said I don't have to think twice about

this.

Yeah.

Nashville, come again.

Okay.

I love it.

Okay, and that's all we got for you listeners.

Hope you had such a nice time.

I did.

Natasha, thank you for spreading all of your beautiful joy and wisdom.

And we'll catch you next time.

Bye bye bye.

This has been another episode of But For Real, produced by Valerie Martin and

Emerson writer and edited by Sean Conlin.

But for Real is the

Gaia Center production.

The Gaia Center offers individual couples and group therapy for clients

across Tennessee and in person in our Nashville office, as well as

coaching for clients worldwide.

For show notes or to learn more about our work, visit gaia center.co

or find us on Instagram at the Gaia Center and at, but for real pod.

But for real is intended for education and entertainment and is not a

substitute for mental health treatment.

Also since we host this podcast primarily as humans rather than clinicians, we

are not shy here about sharing our opinions on everything from snacks and

movies to politicians and social issues.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode.

See you next time.

Bestie.