Welcome to the Borderlands Trail and Ultra Running podcast.

My name is Josh Rosenthal.

I'm the host and I'm the founder.

Do you know anything about the Golden Trail World series?

After this episode, you'll know everything.

Borderlands.

Somehow we're still not learning Borderlands.

We still suck at running.

Some reason, I've just never allowed the golden trail World series into my consciousness.

I've heard the word.

I've heard it mentioned.

I've seen runners running it.

I've even heard Sophia Lockley, who's, who went to the University of Utah.

It's a skier.

I've heard that she's had success in it, but it's just never really registered or mattered to me until that finish at Mammoth last week at the 26K.

Brian Peterson goes by Wolf Runner.

Put it on my radar, said, hey, did you see this?

And I had seen it, and I didn't even think twice about it.

And we get into that in the episode, but that put it on my radar.

And I thought, I've been just wanting to see more competition like that, where people are just hungry to get the win.

I really enjoy that level of competition.

And there it was, right in front of my face.

And so today, Brian and I are going to do our bad runners take on the golden trail World series.

We're going to explore that finish.

We're going to do a deep dive into what it actually is, what the Golden Trail World Series is, and why.

It's what I've been looking for, and it's been right under my nose.

Just like the Salt Lake Foothills trail races have been right under your nose.

Are you looking for a marathon or a ten k?

In the spring?

On May 31, 2025, open range races is putting on the Salt Lake Foothills trail races.

And just as the name would suggest, in the foothills of Salt Lake City, it's gonna be a fun race.

We have a ton of surprises in store.

We're gonna be rolling those out here soon.

It's going to be a blast.

It'll still scratch the itch if you just want to go run a fast race.

But if you want to have a ton of fun, I really don't know if there's going to be a race that's more fun than what we're going to be putting on.

Check out the link in the show notes and sign up now.

Space is limited and spots are filling up.

Okay, here's the bad runners take on the golden trail World Series with my friend Wolf Runner.

Another episode of Bad Runners take with my friend Brian Peterson goes by Wolf Runner.

We have talked, I would say maybe even lamented is a strong word, but we just, we're both coming from a background of being really competitive in the areas that we like growing up, playing sports and still enjoying sports.

And we think, hey, this, some of this, like, really healthy competitive spirit.

Love to see more of it in trail.

And all of a sudden I come to find that it's kind of been right under our noses this whole time in this golden trail World Series.

It came on my radar mainly because Brian was like, hey, did you see the finish at the Golden Trail World Series at mammoth?

And I said, I don't think so.

Like, it didn't stick out necessarily.

And he sent it to me.

I was like, oh, yeah, I saw that.

I was even think twice.

That looked amazing.

This guy was trying to get, you know, pass this other guy and it was sort of this contra.

It ended up being this controversial thing, but I didn't even think of it as controversial enough to where it stuck with me.

I just thought, oh, that's cool.

I love seeing that, like two people really wanting the win.

That was great.

And you're like, no, this has actually been a bigger deal than you think.

And so let's look into it.

So I looked into it and I thought, oh, my gosh, right under our noses has been this really cool golden trial World Series.

I've sort of just not looked at it because it didn't make sense to me intuitively at the beginning.

And so I just have always glazed over it, a brief deep dive and I just think, hey, this is sort of what I'm here for on some levels.

I've been looking for this before I get too much further.

Brian, welcome.

Can you explain the finish that was a bit controversial for those who aren't caught up.

Yeah, I mean, I was watching that event live.

So, you know, one of the things about the golden trail World Series that we'll get into is just how well they produce a live presentation of trail running.

And so, yeah, I mean, I was watching it just under 2 hours for the elite men to finish and, you know, you could see this battle brewing basically at the summit where they peek out at the top of the ski resort at 11,000ft and then they just, you know, release this incredible, you know, thrust down these technical trails at paces that we couldn't even fathom on a track with, with spikes on.

So, yeah, you're glued to the screen, you're watching it, you know, they're descending, guys are putting moves on each other.

Neither can break the other one.

You know, they keep getting closer and closer to the ski town.

You're closing in on five k and they're just still blasting these trails.

And exactly what you wanted to have happen as it was on plane is exactly what did happen.

So you get into the actual, like, ski town itself, like, you know, the paved streets, and you've got, you know, this big tourist congregation area, and they're just blasting.

They've given it everything they can vo two max, you know, foot to the pedal for 2 hours.

And there's absolutely not ounce of wanting to hold hands across this finish line.

These guys are all about that finish.

And it's basically so, as it is, it's a ski town.

So you've got like a tourist area, shops, restaurants.

Right.

And so that's where they have the finish line at.

And it's kind of, you know, it's not a straight line path.

And so there's, you know, a little bit of winds and turns, a few staircases.

And as they get inside of the closing, like, like hundred yards, 50 yards, even.

The, the challenger second, the second place guy, Patrick Capnego, he's trying to make a pass on the right hand side of alacine.

Al Assin holds his line just slightly veering to the right to pinch him off because there's that, there's this little bend where like a natural, like, like plant or box or something is coming out.

And so he just holds his line.

Kip Niego has to break stride.

You know, they get a little bit of elbow, a little rubbing, you know, nothing dramatic or unsportsmanlike.

And Alicene ends up, you know, holding off Kipiego.

So you're gonna have to see it.

If you haven't, do yourself a favor.

I mean, golden trail series has it edited.

They've got highlights of this finish.

It's incredible.

But you always run to the comment section to see what's going on.

And in real time, they were talking about, you know, it's gonna be a protest.

You know, Kip Miego thought that this was a, you know, an unfair contact made, that he, you know, basically interceded and prevented him from making the pass.

But, yeah, golden trail series upheld the finish, and the comment section just were probably 50 50, I would think.

Some saying that it was an illegal move.

You know, the contact wasn't warranted.

Others saying, hey, if you've ever ran cross country, you understand you're entitled to your line, you can hold your position.

So, yeah, I mean, I think the fact that it's making our podcast a topic just shows how thrilling it was.

And the fact you can get a 50 50 audience on anything tells you you're doing something right.

Okay.

So some insider language there that I can pick up from context clues, but.

Right.

Help me understand that, because that was what I had read.

It was like, okay, he had held his line.

Right.

Can you explain what that means?

Yeah.

So just if you were to draw, like, a line from where his intended path would be, if you were, you know what I mean?

Like, his anticipated path.

Right.

So if you were to draw that dotted line of where his body positioning and natural straight line would have been, that's where he held his path.

He didn't make some sort of hard veer to the right in an unnatural way to box him out.

He did sort of with his upper body, you know, lean a little bit into that right angle, you know, kind of anticipating the contact from his competitor.

His competitor wasn't going, you know, by without contact either.

So they both kind of met, rubbed elbows and shoulders above the body, nothing below to intentionally trip somebody.

And, yeah, it was so good.

Yeah.

Cause I wasn't thinking about the rules.

I didn't know the rules.

I didn't.

This was a vague league.

I don't even if you call this a league, but this golden trail World Series was vague.

I saw it.

Amazing.

Move on.

What it appealed to me in is just this fire for them to win.

Like, it just to me, I just.

I so naturally think that way.

Like, it's why I'm so self deprecating about my ultra abilities is because I would rather be winning these things and because I'm not.

I make fun of myself, you know, as.

As you might have in little league or something like that.

I'm the one making fun of me.

It's fine.

Right?

So I saw it and was just.

I just, man, that's great.

I was fired up by it.

I didn't even cross my mind, like, what's the rules?

Is that etiquette?

Is that good after you watched it in real time and then we're watching the replay or however they did it?

I mean, was your read initially that it was.

It was all good and fair?

Yeah, yeah.

I thought it was fine.

Again, it would take quite a bit.

I mean, again, we're running on a ski resort.

We're running up a mountain.

Like, what we're doing isn't polished and clean.

And I don't want to suck out all of the just fierce, you know, competition and make this be like, well, as we approach now this, you know, commercialized ski lodge, we're going to all of a sudden forget that we ran up and down a mountain and we're going to act like this is track and field or something, right?

This is a rock horse.

You know, it's a bit contrived to have it finish in the ski lodge itself, but I get it because it's good for spectators and creating a buzz at the town.

But like, yeah, it's going to be rubbing.

There's going to be, you know, some.

This is exactly what you want.

I mean, I'm glad that it was a bang bang finish rather than him kind of coasting in and kissing babies and waving to his fans type thing.

So, you know, and then, like, when we contrasted, right, like, my immediate thing was like, my God, like, there was never a hesitation that these guys were going to hold hands.

Like, this is trail running, but it's an entirely different sport within trail running.

Yeah.

So I had Tim Tulfs on the podcast at one point, and we were talking about, hey, this is great, mammoth trail fest.

It's growing.

This is awesome.

And he said, yeah, one of them is golden trail race.

And again, I'm familiar with it, but never enough to understand what that even means.

And where I feel silly is that, on this other hand, I've been saying, hey, you know, I want to see some spirit of competition.

I want to see what we just described there.

That's.

I'm looking for that, and here it is.

But it didn't register with me.

And so I just wonder how many people out there doesn't register exactly what this thing is, this golden trail World Series, and why this is the place to go if you're looking for some of that competition on the trail.

These types of finishes and this level of intensity.

So let's back up and talk about what this is.

How would you, like, synthesize Golden Trail World Series?

What is it?

Yeah, so, I mean, again, this is full disclosure.

Like, I'm not a fanboy of the Golden Trail World Series.

I haven't followed the series itself in previous years.

It's been on the radar, but certainly well off the main ripple of the radar, if you will say.

Right.

I think the reason why it hasn't registered a lot with guys like us is just confirmation bias.

We want to believe that the best ultra runners are the Americans.

And when you look at Golden Trail World Series, it's clear and obvious that they are not.

Now, some of our well known athletes, they don't participate in the Golden Trail series, which we'll get into.

But, yeah, so it takes a little bit of effort to kind of forget, you know, the names and the lore that you've kind of learned coming into the sport and just take on this sport fresh and learn new names and characters and nicknames and, I mean, but that's fun.

It's been.

It's been cool.

I'm excited now for next year that, you know, I've kind of baptized myself into the trail series and understand kind of the terminology and how the setup of it is.

So, yeah, I mean, to get into it, basically, it started in 2018.

So it's got some Runway.

It's not a new thing.

It's got a presenting sponsor.

So Golden Trail series itself is presented by Solomon, and in its early days, it was very solemn and heavy with the athletes that ran it.

So, again, kind of what we've talked about on this podcast before, the brands are driving where athletes race.

And so when Solomon was probably getting this off the ground, there was a high incentive for Solomon sponsored athletes to participate in the Solomon branded race series.

And so 2018 goes by 2019 2020 pandemic year was pretty cool.

They had, like, a pivot with a kind of a four stage race championship.

So even during the pandemic, this series was able to put on a championship.

That's the only year that Jim Walmsley, I think, participated in the golden trail Series itself at the championship level.

But essentially how it breaks down now, and I was coming up with, you know, what's the best way to articulate this to the audience, to you?

And if you're familiar with golf, familiar with NASCAR, right?

These other, like, solo competitor sports, they all have kind of a feeder league, right?

You got the Xfinity Tour in NASCAR, kind of where guys can cut their teeth and try and make it to the big show.

You've got you.

I don't even know what they call it now in the PGA Tour, but they've got a sub tour where if you get enough wins, accumulate enough points, you're going to qualify for your tour card and can play with the PGA guys the next year.

Same thing here.

They've got a Golden Trail national series that takes place simultaneously as the World Series events.

So you've got 14 countries that have this trail national series going on.

Amazing.

And the United States is one of them.

And you can basically finish in the top two of your national series to then gain invite to the World Series the next year.

Wow.

And so it's got this awesome kind of format where you can follow the up and coming guys who are trying to get onto the scene the following year, and then you can also follow the main World Series event that's going on at the same time.

What do you think about that?

I had no idea.

Okay, so then this.

This far reaching, the.

You got the minor leagues right in America.

I think that.

Okay.

The only reason I know this name and golden trail Sophia Lockley is because she went to the University of Utah and she's on the ski team at the University of Utah.

And I believe she won last year.

The women's.

I think that she.

Lockley did.

Yes, that's correct.

I.

Yeah, but beyond that, I mean, I.

So I think I see other names that I've heard in there.

I've heard.

I don't just know much about him.

Remy Bonet, I believe I saw that name on there.

Yep.

But like you said, the bias piece.

Well, it.

Is it really that great if Jim's not running it?

Is it really that great if Courtney's not doing it?

You know?

And the answer, I mean, I'm coming across is, yeah, it is.

And it just shows in maybe another.

Another specialty, because by and large, these are.

I mean, I know the mammoth one's 26k.

Like, these are shorter distances.

Right?

These are.

These are speedy distances.

Yeah.

So I was going to dive into that as far as kind of what the average makeup of the golden trail series race looks like.

Please do.

Right, so you've got the national series that takes place.

And again, I appreciate that, because their whole intent is that if you basically, if you can't afford to travel, you don't have sponsorship money, they're still providing local athletes with opportunities to compete.

And so what you then have is the Golden Trail World Series.

And these are eight events that break down for the Golden Trail World Series.

It goes China, I'm sorry, Japan, China, Spain, France, Switzerland, Poland, and two in the USA.

So they strategically do it to where travel becomes easier during this season.

They provide travel accommodation, they cover expenses for travel and hotel lodging for athletes who are in the top 30 for the Golden Trail World Series.

So it's pretty cool.

You know, they got something going on there where they're giving something back to these professional athletes to participate and bring them into the events.

So the distances range, you've got 21k is the shortest.

So we're, you know, we're a us podcast.

That's 13 miles, and then you've got 42k, which is your typical marathon distance.

So 26 miles, very vert heavy.

So you've got like 1300 meters to 2700 meters, which ranges out like, I don't know, 4200ft to almost 9000ft of gain.

Wow.

So yeah, I mean, when you're looking at these things, they may pack a punch or they may be short in distance, but they definitely pack a punch in their vertical ascent.

And it makes sense.

They're all basically taking place on the, in America in ski resorts like mammoth, other places, you know, they've just got the terrain out there that's, that's like that.

So I mean, the way I think about them is like they're mini speedgoat, 50 ks, you know, is what they are.

They're.

Yes, they're intense.

Gosh.

Okay, so yeah, I mean, early days, I think.

Early days, Hayden Hawks, like now you say speedgoat, I think.

Okay, Jim Walm, please won speed goat.

Hayden's one speedgoat sage, Canada back in the day at least his podium there a lot of notable fast men and women runners running speed goat.

But there's still something broken to me and like thinking, associating what's happening there.

Maybe it's because golden trail is young, I don't know what it is, but there's still something to me that's just not like giving it the legitimacy.

Like academically I give it the legitimacy it deserves, but in my heart I don't.

And I wonder.

It's the same thing with f one.

Like, to me it feels like a predominantly european sport event, whatever you want to call it.

And it's hard for me to just fully grab it, though.

I can watch it and kind of get excited.

But I'm not buying the jersey.

You know, like when I was a kid, I was buying the Texas Rangers jersey, the Dallas Cowboys jersey.

Still.

I still don't feel like, you know, like I don't see a path yet to that with golden trail World Series, like in the immediate, but I feel like it's probably just over time as this thing grows, like, and you start to get it and it makes it into the common sort of discussion and you start to see the scale of it and this is, you know, the prize money, all this sort of stuff.

Like there's something there.

And I just wonder if, like in Europe with european fans, if it's already sustained or in America, is it, is there, are there pockets of it that are, that have adopted it and are big fans of it?

I mean, we have two races of all these other countries.

It sounds like all the other countries only have one.

Something happened in America.

I think, you know, I'm sort of hitting a bunch of stuff here.

I'm just, you know, I'm just kind of, like, pushing this along and saying, you know, where, when does it become more to us than what it currently is and why.

Why isn't already more to us?

Yeah, I think it's just, again, because, yeah, we don't have the, well, we already have established, you know, trail gods in the United States.

We've got Courtney, we've got Jim, we've got Zach Miller.

You know, we've got Hayden Hawks.

We've got the up and comers within our identified space.

If you're running the golden ticket Trail series, that is kind of what takes our attention away from things like the Golden Trail series.

We already have a format and a season, and we have a platform for podcasters and content creators to feed us images and narratives.

Right.

And so, again, this is a competing force for our attention, and it's unfamiliar and our immediate, you know, american based bias, you know, just, it doesn't connect to our soul, but visually, when you see it, you can't help but be entertained and then kind of, like, begrudgingly like it at the beginning and then kind of like, you know, kind of be pissed off that this doesn't exist for the stuff that we're already invested into.

And, you know, that there's no connection to western states, to your point.

And maybe that's probably part of it.

It's like we don't see it plugged into that ecosystem, so it falls off our radar, whereas the golden ticket races, you know, those are on a radar because it's setting up that field for that race that we love.

Exactly.

Exactly.

And that.

Yeah.

So why are the names, like we mentioned, not at the Golden Trail World Series?

And I would imagine it's just got to be a bunch of different factors.

It started in 2018.

It really probably didn't get going until after the pandemic.

So call it like, 21, 22, 23 ish area.

It's gaining more momentum.

It's slowly moving away from the Solomon biased or Solomon focused participation, because now when you look at the leaderboard, the representation of brand and sponsors is very diverse.

And so, again, I think it's just the guys and gals that were in that era when it started may not have had the natural skillset or they, you know, you can't.

I should say it's very difficult for you to train for a Golden trail series while simultaneously being fit enough to run western states and UTMB.

Now, obviously, the Europeans are going to start protesting that Killian can do it.

And yes, okay.

That when you watch golden trail World Series and you see how other Americans compete within it, and then you see what Killian can go do on some of these courses while still being able to win UTMB, it just ups the level of like respect for him.

I better understand it now, seeing how far his skill set is.

Great way to put it.

Because when I think about Killian, it's like, yeah, I mean, his resume on its face, like, you look at how many wins does he have and where he's racing and what's the vert like in all those.

But the way that you just put it was probably the easiest way to connect the dots as we start to understand golden trail and that he can go to Zagama or whatever these places are that he goes to and he still, he wins that and in the same calendar year wins utmberal.

I think you're spot on.

That is as we start to understand those shorter distances and what that takes, we already all probably who's listening to this are kind of understanding that hundred mile distance and how crazy that is to be ready for both in the same calendar year.

You're right.

That's, that's special.

Yeah, yeah, it's incredible.

So, yeah, I think again, it's probably, yeah, so it's that skill set training.

You know, you have to radically change your training just because of how shorter these races are and how much climbing focus they are.

It's just entirely different.

And then I think the brands are still a massive component of it, unfortunately.

Is that, you know, like, yeah, I mean, for Hoka, I think it's gonna give you more bang for your buck right now if Jim's at UTMB versus the champion of the golden trail World Series.

So, yeah, one thing this makes me start to think of is what are the other?

Are there other circuits out there?

So you mentioned the golden ticket circuit, which is the circuit that runners will dive in and out of and pick and choose their race that they think they can use to get into western states.

Another one that comes to mind is the world trail majors.

All that looked like to me was that maybe some larger trail races around the world all just sort of kind of banded together.

I can't tell exactly why or if that's a circuit in and of itself or if that's just a promotional value or if there's a competitive value.

No.

So, yeah, Wil trail major would be the only one that I'm all aware of at this time that has some type of, like, defined season with a series of defined races where your top, I think with world trial majors, it might be your top two results, you know, gets you into this scoring for, you know, then season ending championship and winner.

But, yeah, wheelchair Mazers is still.

It's his first year, so I guess we got to give him a little bit of patience with it.

But, yeah, I mean, they, they launched on the heels of the UTMB drama earlier this year, and so it felt a bit rushed that they were just trying to capitalize on maybe, you know, some of the market sympathy for wanting an alternative to UTMB because I haven't heard much of anything afterwards.

It's there.

I mean, there's a, there's a social media page that you can get into and, you know, there's, there's information out there, but it's not like they're putting out a lot of content that's hitting my algorithm or my feed.

I'm not seeing anybody that I follow or, you know, content creators really pour into the world trail major.

So, you know, it's out there, but it's not making a noise.

I mean, like the best of the best, I don't feel like, get pulled into any of these circuits.

They can kind of just pick the race that they want to go do.

I mean, is UTMB a de facto circuit because of what it takes to get into it?

So then you're going to these.

And what I mean by circuit is, like, if you are in that ecosystem, you're running only that ecosystem for a defined period of time, like Golden Trail World Series, it sounds like that's a year or like, you know, there's a season.

These people probably aren't off running speed goat that year because that would ruin their season.

And I think that maybe that's just the piece that's foreign or the part that is growing on me or what I like that I haven't fully enjoyed yet.

But, yeah, when you think about Jim and you think about the biggest names, they're above the circuit.

And I wonder then there's runners beneath that that need the circuit for the prize money that's in the circuit.

They need it for the career.

Like you said, the 30 people, top 30 people getting their expenses paid for.

Like, circuits feel like there's careers that can exist and they're dependent on the circuit, and then we've got these people that transcend the circuit and, you know, there's maybe two dozen of those in the world.

Maybe a dozen, yeah.

And running so crazy because, you know, it has these types of events where they're, they're the biggest event within the sport, but they're outside of a defined circuitous.

Like that's, that's, that's, that's a problem for me because in, you know, in, in the golf analogy or in NASCAR, it's like the biggest event is that circuits championship.

Like, there's not something that, like the best race car drivers go and do to prove themselves outside of a NASCAR.

Right.

Or like the PGA Tour.

Like, you've got the majors and like, there's nothing that you do outside of, you know, the PGA Tour and golf and the four majors to go do something.

So that's a problem with our sport, I think, is like, you have something like a series which gives a fan a season to follow and a build up to a championship.

But for UTMB, it's not a series that you follow.

It's like once you qualify, then they go out and they run all these other ancillary races that are great, but they're just like, they're one and done.

They don't build any momentum to the championship in a win loss way or in a cumulative point way.

And that's what the golden trail series brings, again, back to why we're talking about everything.

The golden trail series.

Yeah, it has this kind of, like, point system that you follow and you're seeing these guys fighting basically in the top ten to be able to accumulate points.

So they know that they've secured their place in the final, and then the final is when the final season top 30 is solidified.

So then, you know, you've made your bones and you're good for next year.

You've qualified.

Right.

And.

Yeah, and, yes, and the other aspect of Golden Trail World Series that I wanted to pivot to is just the production value of it.

Like, they are putting out the best presentation of trail running like they go to.

So in Mammoth Trail fest is the greatest example because it's kind of crazy.

So Golden Trail Fest comes in and partners with Mammoth Trail Fest, which is its own event going on.

And basically, I don't know what the business side of it is.

I assume Golden Trail series is, you know, giving Mammoth and Tim Tollefson, you know, bigger exposure.

You know, it's allowing him to say that he's offering prize money in his race because I'm sure it's golden trail series that's funding the prize money, but it's crazy because Mammoth Trail fest has other events that are going on, and so you're seeing, like Mountain Outhouse, Aravaipa presenting the live stream feed with Debo, I think, and Corrine doing the commentary on the other races.

And so you get a real live time contrast of, like, what does our live stream media package look like in presenting trail running on the.

Then the next day, mountain outhouse and free trail shuts down the production.

Golden trail series comes in and takes over.

And they produced the presentation on the.

My God, dude.

Markedly different.

Markedly different.

And I got a shout out.

Our boy Troy.

Cause Troy gave me this line, so I'm not gonna take any credit for it, but I love it.

It's that american trail running media is being done by passionate trail runners, and golden trail series is being done by professional production.

You know what I mean?

It's not basically the guys in the sport who just have a passion and want to share this with everyone.

These are guys who could go out and produce a documentary for some other film.

Right?

Like, it's.

It's people who are professionals at production producing it versus passionate trail runners trying to their best to do it.

And, I mean, that's a markedly different result that you see.

That was always kind of my point with the.

Who's the Stephen A.

Smith of trail running?

The point was, who is in trail running?

Making it happen and pushing it forward, who's never done it before in their life?

They're just there because that's their gift or their skill set or their career, you know, lover hate Stephen A.

Smith.

That's not the point.

It's the fact that he didn't play pro basketball and he's a voice for basketball.

Or Joe Buck didn't play pro baseball.

He's still my favorite commentator in baseball and football.

I love Joe Buck, especially when he's Troy Aikman.

So, yeah, what you're saying that I love this, and I think that's interesting.

So what you're saying is they have the.

Pretty much the same gear as the free trail mountain outpost.

Same sets, or are they coming in, putting up new sets or putting up new microphone?

I mean, like, what?

Everything's new to the eye.

Okay.

Oh, they're.

They're packing up and going, and then the new production crew's coming in and setting up shop.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Or it's just basically built out of a different.

Yeah, they're not even used.

I.

You wouldn't even have known that it was the same place unless you saw, like.

Yeah.

Like, landmarks.

Oh, this is the same race.

It's just presented differently for me.

Okay.

So they have.

They have more e bike cameramen.

They have.

The drones were incredible.

You know, they have their own commentators, which, you know, commentary isn't something that, you know, comes through differently no matter how much you pay for it.

Right.

So Debo and Corinne, obviously I'm biased.

I love their commentary.

But the person that they have is very well at.

Very good at his job and does well at bringing the race, you know, together and bring building momentum.

He's.

He's excited about it.

You know, it's, it's, it's.

It's a sporting commentator, so it's.

Yeah, it's.

It was awesome, man.

I would attribute this somewhat.

I would say a hypothesis is that if this is early, if Solomon was all over this thing early, some of the best content on YouTube for, for a long time were the most consistent.

Maybe not always the best, but always good with Solomon tv.

And so I just wonder if that's baked into the DNA, Solomon's ability to put out a great video, like, and that french DNA of creativity, like high quality creativity and storytelling.

I wonder if that's just what's in the.

What's in the DNA here of Golden Trail World Series, if that came from Solomon, where, regardless of where it came from, it sounds like it's there.

It's just interesting to think of maybe Solomon has something to do with that.

Yeah.

And I think the.

I'll have to dive into more.

There was so much for me to research and try and, you know, build a concise, you know, snapshot talk list here today.

Right, exactly.

But, yeah, I think the creator of the Trails golden trail series, I believe, has a journalistic background or somewhere within that.

Within that media scope.

So, yeah, he would be an interesting person to kind of do a micro dive into, know the DNA of the Golden Trail World Series and see how his experience contributes to why it's markedly different here.

And again, we always hear the justification or the pause on Golden Trail series.

Hands down, it's unmarkedly better.

But they have so much money.

They have endless money.

They have endless money.

I don't know.

We're the United States of America.

I think we have a thriving economy here.

The country's enormous.

I feel like if there was just the slight desire or curiosity to do this, we could figure it out financially.

You've got the brand.

Why doesn't Hoka decide, hey, we need to come out with the Challenger series.

We'll be the presenting sponsor and we'll throw some money into it or on, you know, we're going to rise up from, you know, this kind of challenger brand and, and throw a series together.

Like I, I can't imagine it's that much money that we're talking about that it's just impossible to do it here with the players like Mountain Outhouse or free trail.

Yeah.

And the number of really awesome 50 ks in America.

Right.

You know, I don't know how well speedgoats, since we've mentioned them already, since they're owned by UTMB, if they playdae play well with others.

But I think you've got to have the shorter distances to get eight races.

Like if you're trying to monetize this thing, it can't just be a couple hundred milers.

One at the beginning of the year, one at the end of the year because our runners can't do that terribly consistently.

But twenty six k to fifty k, eighteen k to thirty five k, ten of those races across America.

But my head then also goes back to all these other circuits, all these other places.

Like if someone's bucket list this year is the main event, UTMB, they've got to run these other events to get their stones.

And so then, yeah, the question is how do you get the people to choose yours when there's so many?

I mean, I think a little bit also when you were talking earlier of like NFL was the american league was playing and the National League was playing, then eventually they came together as one league.

I wonder if there's something like that in the future if we see like this is where the money is.

So let's just all, let's like, let's merge some of these things together.

Let's stop competing with these little, this golden trail thing and this golden ticket thing and this, all this.

And like let's come together and make a big league with a season.

It still may not get the Jim Walmsley's of the world because they want to stick to the hundred.

But I wonder if that's the path.

Yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, I love that we can have these races exist that are in that, you know, twenty six k to trail marathon distance.

Yeah, yeah.

And the people are fascinating.

I mean there's some, there's some really cool characters out there, right?

I mean the distance is shorter.

So you get the elite East Africans coming in, you get some of the like the VK vert specialists like Remy that we mentioned who, you know, set the Pike's peak ascent course record.

You've got Eli and his wife Tabor that do it from the american side.

So we do have the american names that you know, you know, fight for wins, fight for podiums, definitely are in the top ten, definitely within the top 30 for the qualification standard.

So, yeah, I mean, we definitely have the american presence within the series.

You just got to take off that kind of american trail bias in thinking that it's got to be produced by America or owned, you know, at the top results by Americans because, yeah, I mean, the guy who had the victory at mammoth with the controversial finish, I believe he's a moroccan runner, Alicein, and his nickname is the Flying Camel.

Like, how cool is that, right?

And it makes sense because when this guy peaked out at 11,000ft, he immediately goes into almost this, like, this, like, jumping, bounding stride.

I mean, the athleticism of the stride that he was taking on this straight down vertical section, I mean, it was insane.

So, I mean, yeah, it's, it's a very entertaining series to watch.

Yeah, I'm, I'm all about it.

Like, I think of as I've done the deep dive or deeper dive lately into Diamond League, you know, there's probably other leagues.

I don't know enough about that whole realm yet to know, like, what are the feeder leagues into that and.

But there's one league.

Noah Lyles is in diamond league.

You know what I mean?

He's not.

Well, maybe this year I want to do this thing and it's over there.

So track and field feels, I don't want to say centralized because I think that has some negative connotations, but it allows aspiring runners or aspiring people in that space to be single minded in what it means to be the best in the world.

Right now it's so heavily debated.

And trailhead, well, if you win UTMB, does that make you the best this year?

If you win western states, does that make you the best?

Because there's no, like, obvious, like agreed upon, even sanctioned maybe.

And I get also that the charm of trail running is that it's none of these things.

But if I'm just saying it from the competitive standpoint, like, I want to crown the best this year, I want to crown the trail runner of the year.

And it not be, I don't know how to say it, kindly biased or, you know, driven by other factors other than maybe what I would like for them to be.

There's some objectivity of, well, diamond league Noah Lyles wins 100 meters.

He's the fastest person in the world.

That just.

That is more objective, it's cleaner and we're lacking that.

For better, for worse.

I don't know what do you think?

Yeah, I mean it's going to be interesting.

So now that I'm more familiar with this and more aware of the accomplishments and the athleticism like we have now, free trail doing the trail runner of the year award, which I believe is distance agnostic as they put it.

Right.

So it doesn't have to be ultra and it's certainly something that if you're on the Golden Trail World Series you're you know, eligible to be, to voted for.

So it'll be interesting because like that's kind of, that, that's where you kind of tell on yourself is like how do you look at the Golden Trail World Series and their athletes?

Because if you vote them, you know, and the champion of the Golden Trail World Series gets fifth on your list over some people.

Right.

Then obviously that just shows you it's not distich agnostic because you, or it is I guess because you're eligible, anybody's eligible for the award but you're biased.

Is still weighing a win in the hundred mile events much higher than what the Golden Trail World Series does.

Yes.

And now that you, even as we're saying it, who else does it?

Like Ultra Runner magazine has one and free trail has one and they could all be different unless it seems like, well it probably should be Tara Dower this year.

Well so that's the problem that I've always pointed out is like it's, I mean it's, it's laughable to try and create an award for the trail runner and you've got to have the Golden Trail World Series champion who's running like we've talked about, twenty six k to a trail marathon all the way up to a performance like Terra Dower which was over the course of 50 days.

Right.

Right.

So you, I mean that's, that's why we need more centralization and you know, specialized, specialized awards.

Right.

Like we need to have different categories to be able to make logical conclusions and really allow like it does the athletes a disservice because, you know, somebody like Tara should receive some type of an award as the best ex that can build her career legacy whereas somebody with the golden trail series should also be able to win some type of award and be compared against people he's truly competing against.

Like it makes no sense to compare those two.

Yeah.

The trail runner of the year discussion, you know, is equal parts like popularity.

Oh yeah.

Contest with, I don't know.

So maybe that's the cynical side and then the generous side is like they've done something that's really admirable.

Or big, let's say Tara dower.

But then it feels almost like ESPN Sports person of the year award.

It's like, okay, what we're doing when we're saying that is like we're throwing football, baseball, basketball, we're throwing the 25k, we're throwing the, we're throwing the hundred miler and we're throwing the 40 day race.

We're playing a six day stage race.

Whoever's done the best in all those, you get to be our number one.

And I get it.

Like, there's no time to do awards for all of those, but to bring it to the Golden Trail World Series, I think you're exactly right.

Does the person who wins that this year or won it last year, where was Sophia Lockley in the top ten women of 2023?

That tells you the credence that we give to golden trail today, right?

Yeah.

I mean, because you have to, there's so many factors that if you were a voter, you would have to weigh in and consider and wait, you know, create your own scale on what's worth more.

Right.

Like they're going to be able to race more because the recovery for these races are of a lot quicker than Courtney trying to recover from the races.

But again, then the field competition depth of talent is much deeper at the Golden Trail World Series than in other races.

And that's what's kind of cool about the golden trail World Series, too.

Just real quick is it throws out all of the skill sets that aren't internal or aren't athletic, I should say about ultra running in hundreds.

Right?

Like, what makes the hundred awesome is that you're tackling, fueling strategies and hydration problems.

Well, that's not, that's not a feat of athleticism to me.

You're like, it's a feat you can train, right.

But it's not.

It's not athleticism.

Right.

You're tackling adverse weather conditions over the course of, you know, 15 hours to 24 hours, 4 hours.

Right.

Like, so you've got changing weather conditions and gear and all these other things that really are existing outside of athleticism.

Golden trail World Series.

The races are short enough to where fueling.

Not that big of a deal.

Right.

Like it's like a road marathon.

Like, yeah, you've got to practice it, but, like, it's not, it's not something that can't be done.

And so it's purely just athleticism, you know, and how you, how fit you are for that race course profile on that day.

That's a really good point.

Yeah.

There's a sweet spot in distance that proves athleticism, and then the longer the endurance stuff proves athleticism.

Plus strategy plus discipline to carry out that strategy.

I'm not saying discipline and strategy for you.

Don't worry about food, but when you're thinking about food, you're thinking about rest and you're going 40 days.

That's a whole different ballgame.

So free trail said that Sophia Lockley was the number three.

So she wins last year, golden trail, and then she was number three alongside Zach Miller.

So Zach Miller and Sophia were the number three runners of the year last year.

So where was Remy?

Did that.

Is that list.

Do you still have that up or no?

Yes.

Let me take a look here.

It's just curious to see how you.

How it translates on the men's side of Remy, who won the golden trail World Series and also had an impressive year with, I think.

I think 23 was the year that he accomplished everything at Pike's peak.

Okay, let's see.

They gave him second.

He said, alongside Katie.

All right, so that says something.

But you also say that Pikes Peak is Pikes Peak, one of the golden trail.

It was, yeah.

So I don't believe it was this year.

It was headlands and Mammoth Trail fest.

Okay, so, yeah, I mean, there it is.

I think that's a really good metric you came up with to see.

Where do they fit in now?

They're not number one, but top three feels like it's getting some.

Some of the credence it deserves.

Yeah.

So, I mean, that's good.

Yeah, no, I mean, definitely hats off to the voters or who it was that, you know, placed them there, because that.

That definitely seems like, you know, appropriate placements for the type of season they had on that series.

And, I mean, yeah.

Remy.

Remy beating and taking down the course record for the Pikes Peak ascent was just one of those, you know, ones that, you know, Killian had gone and tried to do, you know, a host of others have tried to do it, and they weren't even.

I mean, they weren't even close.

They were minutes.

Minutes.

Ten minutes off of, you know, where.

Where the record was at.

Wow.

That's incredible.

Yeah, well, I think.

Am I crazy?

Is the golden trail World Series final, like, next week?

It is, yeah.

So that's what's kind of cool, too, is that, like, they.

They keep the final destination secrete and then again, they build excitement to, like, where's the finale going to be?

You know, they just announced it so now it's still an open competition.

So just because you're outside of the top 30 doesn't mean you can't pay your own way in to then, you know, try to have a strong enough placement to get you inside of that top 30.

So, yeah, it'll be pretty cool to see where everything shakes out.

Just knowing what's at stake there.

As far as having the.

The financial supporting and entry into the events the next year, do you know.

Where it's at off the top of your head?

I don't know.

I had it, but I forgot to write it down.

Check here.

I mean.

Okay, so let's hit the high level to review here.

The golden trail World Series has a point system.

There's eight races, 30.

I mean, it feels like lots more runners are available, but they.

They favor the top 30.

Please put it that way.

They're paying for them.

Like this is.

There's lots of prize money.

I think the overall purse I saw was like 300 grand spread across the season.

So they're getting paid to win these races.

They're getting probably paid more to win the whole series.

I think 300,000 is for the championship, the grand finale, and then they have smaller prize purses at each event.

I could be wrong, but I thought that's the way that I understood it.

Okay.

But, yeah, go ahead.

So, yeah, yeah.

The point feeder system, the eight events, right?

Yeah.

Let's see.

What are some of the other high levels?

What are the high level takeaways here?

Well, again, I think it's great because it is a true global event.

Right.

So I mentioned at the beginning the countries that have host races.

So, I mean, that's a super, I think, unique aspect, again, because we're kind of biased in the United States.

Right.

Like, it's either here in North America or it's UTMB or it's really probably not on the radar, basically.

So it exposes you some pretty cool different courses.

Yeah, I mean, and then I love the fact that the distance creates an easier recovery for the men and women.

So you'll even have sometimes, like Remy, he ran the VK, I think, on Friday, and then came back on Sunday and ran the 26K.

So there's probably some consequence to that, that he sacrificed in his 26K result.

But, like, I mean, yeah, it's pretty cool how quickly these athletes can turn around and be 100% and ready to go again.

Yeah, I mean, we get to see our favorite.

Our favorite athletes that we mention all the time, you know, a couple times a year and so when you go to these shorter distances with this, you're going to get to see, like, say, you start to pick a favorite and maybe my dream will come true.

And they create jerseys for them, and you wear that jersey.

You get to see that person go at it eight times at least that year.

Yeah.

Okay, the.

The final is.

I don't even know how to pronounce this.

Escona Locarno.

Have you ever heard of that?

No.

No.

Is that Italy or what was the.

You know, it seemed italian.

I'm gonna look it up.

Escona Locarno.

So the other thing that they've created, too, that complements the series is just the content.

Just to go back to that, when you go on their Instagram or anywhere else, I guess, on social media, but mainly Instagram, the highlight package that they put together for these races, like, you know, five days after they've been completed.

So they do the live, the live stream with live commentary, and then they put together this, like, 15 to 20 minutes recap of the mammoth, you know, trailfest.

Twenty six k.

And, I mean, it's exactly what we were talking about.

It's like, you know, this is what we would love to see, like, post western states, five days later, 20 minutes highlight packet, and it's, you know, incredible production.

You know, it's.

It's.

It's something that, like, you can share quickly with your friends.

It's easy to consume, and then it, like, yeah, they just.

They tell the story, so then they take the top ten, they reshuffle the leaderboard, and then they build excitement going into the next event.

Like, all right, you know, are these characters gonna come back?

Philemon gonna get revenge on Alicene after that controversial finish?

Like, they just know how to present the sport, tell the story to complete, like, to have a full through line from one event to the next.

It's.

It's awesome.

And then, yeah, I mean, they're doing everything right.

It seems like there is a big adoption and big audience for this in Europe because they've partnered and I think they have Golden Trails series tv now.

So it's actually going to be broadcast on euro Sport.

So they're.

It's a unique.

I don't know, I don't have any idea about how the business workings, you know, do with broadcast tv, but I think they're paying for the actual broadcast time, you know, so they're forking the money over to, again, reach the.

The non running audience there, you know, who are just sport fans of outdoors outdoorsmen's events.

And so I can only imagine this is going to keep growing.

Like they're seemingly doing everything right with a product that's already polished and ready for a bigger spotlight.

So it's cool.

Yeah, it feels like.

It feels like this is the way to do it.

So that back to my intro, it's been right under my nose for a while now and I just.

Because I'm always, you know, thinking about what I want to think about, something new pops up and I didn't even give at the time, but this is, this is a.

This is a brilliant model for even just how you descended, for growing the sport, for testing to see if the sport works for non participants in the sport.

Shorter races, attention, better attention spans, much better post race.

I mean, it feels brilliant.

And this Ascana Locarno.

Yes.

Is northern Italy.

Looks like it's right on the swiss border.

It looks like a seven hour train ride from where I am right now.

So who knows?

Yeah, maybe I'll go watch it.

Right?

And I think, Josh, it's okay to have your Salt Lake City jersey next to a moroccan or kenyan jersey from the Golden Troll series.

I think much like how us fans of soccer embrace their I their local MLS club, but then also have maybe a Champions League or La Liga team or they've got their messy jersey, you know, I think we can.

We can put a foot in both buckets there and be authentic fans of our local american runners, but also, you know, really fan out on this golden trail World Series.

Yeah, I mean, if we.

If we knew better, you know, we could have had done like a Golden trail series final, like episode.

You know, maybe that's where this is going, where we can do stuff like that.

We can celebrate this stuff, keep all, like, for what I'm doing at Borderlands, the heart of trail running, like, the good feelings, to be clear, that finish was the heart of trail running.

To me.

I don't think the heart of trail running just means the mid back of the pack who are all in it for the soul.

To me, like, that desire to win was a soul heart moment that I fully resonate with.

And, you know, I want to learn more about the 1500.

I want to do more with the diamond league stuff.

Like, I just want to celebrate running in general.

Even though my heart and my foundation is in trail, like, just to be turned on to this stuff is really cool.

And to be turned on to in real time and seeing this happen and knowing that if I want to wear the jersey of something like that's possible and I'm looking for that, so that's cool.

Totally.

And, yeah, it'll be fascinating to hear the feedback, you know, from the Americans that listen, just, you know, we could be completely.

I could be completely wrong and there could be a huge adoption rate and people could be, you know, talking about how they've been passionate fans of this for years.

You know, this could be just me.

And you both being equally as, you know.

Right, exactly.

So let us know.

I definitely know the european audience, you know, has been fully aware of this.

This is, you know, where some of their trail heroes compete.

And.

And, yeah, they are very passionate about it, you know, so hopefully we can come alongside them and, you know, not ruin something.

You know, America's unfortunately had a reputation of taking something that another country's already done and redo it just a little bit worse.

It's exactly like Apple and Samsung.

Samsung will have a feature.

They've had it on their phone for years.

Apple releases it like it's never been done before.

Yeah, we could do that way.

That's fine.

Right.

So I am definitely paying homage in respect of all the european.

Those letters and pans.

Yeah, exactly.

All right, well, let's do this again soon.

All right, buddy?