Episode 5: Narcissism & Gaslighting: Part 2 - Family, Friends, & Everyone Else
Thanks for joining me again! On this episode we’re going to continue the conversation on narcissism & gaslighting. How it shows up in people close to you like parents or siblings & other people you meet throughout your life. And then how to set boundaries so they can’t bring/or you don’t let any more toxicity in your life.
First let’s start with them basic traits of a narcissist. This is the list of the DSM-5-TR Criteria for Narcissistic Personality Disorder. The DSM is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, published by the American Psychiatric Association. This provides a standardization system for diagnosing & classifying mental disorders. This list is from a study/article from the National Institute of Health - I will include a link in the references.
NPD DSM-5-TR Criteria
In interpersonal settings, there is a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and lack of empathy. This pattern of behaviors onsets in early adulthood and persists through various contexts. Clinical features include at least 5 of the following:
* Having a grandiose sense of self-importance, such as exaggerating achievements and talents, expecting to be recognized as superior even without commensurate achievements
* Preoccupation with fantasies of success, power, beauty, and idealization
* Belief in being "special" and that they can only be understood by or associated with other high-status people (or institutions)
* Demanding excessive admiration
* Sense of entitlement
* Exploitation behaviors
* Lack of empathy
* Envy towards others or belief that others are envious of them
* Arrogant, haughty behaviors and attitudes
So those are the criteria that are used to diagnose NPD. Then, as I was preparing this podcast I came across a Facebook reel that really honed in not he 6 types of narcissism. I have included the link to that reel as well.
But here is a brief summary of the video. A man named Lewis Howes is interviewing Dr. Ramani Durvasula. She states there are 6 types of narcissists:
1. Grandiose - traditional, arrogant, pretentious, charming, charismatic, kind of shiny narcissist.
2. Vulnerable - sullenness, petulance, passive aggressive, chronic victimhood, passive aggressive, failure to launch. People who live in great fantasies of the great things they’re going to do, but they never do them. Then plays the victim of why they couldn’t do it.
3. Malignant - “the dark tetrad” composed of narcissism, psychopathy, the willingness to take advantage of someone & sadism. Paranoia can fall in this too. They are more coercive, more menacing, & more isolating.
4. Communal - they get their validation by being perceived as the saviors, rescuers, & do gooders. Example is like the mom that does all the actives, the PTA, helps the little league, raises the money, goes to the galas, and then goes home and screams at her kids & is horrible & abusive to her partner. Put on a show outside of the house or work & gives the appearance of being a good person, but is more like a monster.
5. Self-Righteous - judgmental, moralistic, rigid. Often funky with money - like someone who has so much money but will put someone down for not having the financial means when a problem arises & has no desire to help them. No grace is given. If you’re late, too bad… they didn’t wait for you. Rigid, cold, moralistic, miserly, obsessive. Often workaholics with little care as how it affects others. Not worried about anyone but themselves.
6. Neglectful - they view everyone as an object. You only matter when they need you. They don’t care if something is wrong. They don’t notice you, it’s as if you don’t exist until they need or want something from you.
I know I have run across all 6 types in my life….
So, without naming names, here are some examples of the narcissists I’ve had in my life (that weren’t my husband):
I was 18 at the time, I was going to school 25 hours a week - 5 days a week, and working 35 hours a week. My school was an hour & 15 minutes away - one way (so 2.5 hours a day in drive time). Well the narcissist told me if I didn’t clean my room they were going to do it for me. And they meant by throwing everything away. So I was absent for the first time in college so I could stay home & clean my room. But you see, they had put a time limit on it - like it had to be done by a certain date. And when your’e gone 70-80 hours a week, that doesn’t leave much time to do much of anything. They had no empathy. Gave ZERO SHITS about what I was doing & what I had going on. I moved out shortly after that.
Then, I had a narcissist think that their way of raising kids was the best way. They thought homeschooling our girls was abuse & at the same time criticized another family member by saying how it was wrong for starting their kids a year later in school so they would be more ready & successful.
They also had to be the loudest, most noticed at every family event. Specific people were always more important than others. Leaving them feeling unwanted & unloved.
We also had a narcissist in my family call CPS on Chris & I against our kids. They thought they knew better than I did what was going on at the time and went behind my back & called them. Long story short, CPS found NO EVIDENCE of anything wrong, other than we had a tub of tools in our living room because we were doing some construction. Literally, that was the worst they could find. And we lived off-grid, in a tiny house & homeschooled our girls at the time.
One of the first boundaries I ever set was denying them access to my kids because the whole event traumatized my kids. I told the narcissist that they could not have anything to do with my kids until they were 18 & could make their own decisions on whether or not they wanted to be involved in their life.
This narcissist kept inviting us to holidays/Christmas anyway - year after year after year. And finally, 12 years later, I have set up another boundary. I told them to just stop. Stop asking, because until they could own up & apologize for what they did it would never even be a consideration. I never got a response. And as I’m sure you know, No Response - is a response.
Now, I have another narcissist in my life where I got to see the Narcissistic Abuse Cycle play out in front of me. It wasn’t quite the same as my experiences, but it was still there.
Everything revolved around this narcissist. The other person was limited in what they could do because the drinking by the narcissist was always more important. The narcissist could never do anything on their own and always interrupted the other person in whatever they were doing. They had to stop what they were doing & help the narcissist. My first husband did the same shit to me.
When you have a narcissist that is always criticizing or saying something that comes across as mean - they’ll say “It was just a joke” “I was just joking” “Can’t you take a joke?”. Eventually I told them “If everything is a joke, then nothing is a joke - therefore you actually mean what you are saying.” They would still deny it anyway.
I have several narcissists in my life where everything is about them. They never see what the other person does or sacrifices for them. It becomes an expectation and if you don’t keep doing it, you’ll never hear the end of it and they will shame you into doing it.
About 8 months after my mom died, I had a narcissist ask me my opinion & help about something to do with her. Something that was being made. The narcissist kept wanting to add more & more to it. Like it was getting gaudy. Somethings didn’t really have any meaning to it. So I told the narcissist that it was a bit too much & that mom would rather it be something simple - more elegant. Now remember, they asked for my help & opinion… - we were going back & forth a little bit on the phone & the narcissist finally said to me “well guess what? Your mom’s dead.” I was dumbfounded. I started crying an hung up the phone. That was one of the cruelest, most hurtful things anyone has ever said to me in my entire life. It has been almost 3 years and I have still not gotten an actual apology. About 5 months after it happened I got a non-apology. But never an actual apology for what was said. So I have put up a boundary with this person. Right now it is a “do not engage”. I make no effort to reach out to this person - who has been in my life a very long time.
Then I had, very close to me, narcissists not give 2 shits about my current husband (or myself) & his transplant. Not while he was in the hospital for 3 months & not in the last almost 2 years since. They give ZERO FUCKS about how either of us are doing. Why? Because it doesn’t involve them. There is no way they can be the center of the story or even twist the story to make it about them.
Now, others not so closer to me….
I had a coworker that always had to be right. They would call the customers wrong (not to their face), like they had no idea what they were doing or talking about. But would then proceed to ask a different coworker how to fix what the problem was. But many, if not most times the narcissist wouldn’t even take the advice given & would do everything BUT what needed to be done (because heaven for bid the narcissist is wrong & doesn’t know what they are doing). They also talk in circles (I’ve found this to be a very common narcissistic trait). They would complain about how our product was made & the various little flaws they had. Which we were all aware of. But they would complain & say what the factory needed to do to fix it. Then complain about it again, & say how the products are cheap & they just need to take to the factory themselves about how to fix it. Then they would complain more about something else, then another & another. This is all when the narcissist had only been at the job for just a couple of months.
And this isn’t a one off thing - this happened almost every day. And if you pointed out a problem, the narcissist was having or doing, they would deny it & just talk & talk & talk trying to work their way out of it.
Som other examples - those that go up to cashiers or customer service & start yelling at them. Almost always they will be a narcissist. Because they lack empathy. They never realize how they are making the other person feel.
There are others that are so self-absorbed you can’t miss them. Just sit & people watch. Eventually you’ll be able to pick them out rather quickly & even with a very short conversation. Because usually they will listen to respond & not listen to hear. Meaning they’re literally waiting for you to finish talking (or even interrupting you) so they can talk.
Now, how do you deal with or handle these people? Well you have to have boundaries. You can love people from a distance. If it’s a parent or sibling or someone like that - you can still love them, but you also don’t have to involve them in your life. YOU get to choose how much or how little you want that person in your life. And whatever you choose is OK. Protect your peace. Don’t let the toxicity in.
Now, when you come across a narcissist, say at work or just in passing - my opinion is to just not engage them. If you can set a boundary that you can keep them away that is best, but sometimes we have to interact no matter what.
I have found that if you just let them ramble and then give them a non-reaction that works best. Do you best not to show emotion because they will use that against you later. Just give them simple non-reaction answers “I understand” “Good to know” “Noted” - There is a guy named Jefferson Fisher on social media, he is a great person to tips on how to talk to / engage an narcissist. I’ll put a link to him in the resources too.
If you are in a position of authority, it works best to just be succinct & but in your needs. Simple & to the point. Don’t give them room or time to rebut or make excuses. Say way you need to say, ask if they understand & then say Ok Thanks, and walk away. Less is Always better.
Up next, we’re gong to say a familiar prayer that I think all of us can use on a daily basis.
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Thanks for continuing to listen, I really appreciate it!
Today we are going to say the Serenity Prayer. Because there is so much wisdom in it & we can say it on a daily basis. And I think it applies very well when we’re dealing with & discussing narcissists.
Here we go - First let’s take 3 deep breaths.
Breathe In.
Breathe Out.
Breathe In.
Breathe Out.
Breathe In.
Breathe Out.
Now repeat after me, either out loud or silently to yourself - or say it with me if you know the whole prayer.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time, enjoying one moment at a time,
accepting hardship as a pathway to peace;
taking, as Jesus did, this sinful world as it is,
not as I would have it;
trusting that You will make all things right if I surrender to Your will;
so that I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with You forever in the next.
Amen.
I love you.
Say this daily, even if you just say the first part. It’s easy and very effective.
Thank you so very much for listening! I hope these podcasts are helping in some way - whether with the prayers & affirmations, or just making you feel not alone in your journey.
If there is something specific you’d like to ask or thing would be a good topic you want to hear about, please email me, I’d love to hear them! You can email me at info@healingunfiltered.com.
So, my loves, here are my parting words to you - if no one has told you today, I love you. I love you for who you are in this very moment.
Remember - Have Faith. Give Grace. You ARE Worthy. And…. I love you.