What's goody?

Hot breath averse.

Welcome back to Hot Breath Live, your weekly comedy tune up.

I am your host, comedian Joel Byers.

My coach, Yoshi so is on family vacation.

But fear not, we have the perfect co host today.

His sketch comedy group, Whitest Kid.

You know, probably the pioneers of Internet sketch comedy.

They were doing this before YouTube and then turned to friends hanging out, writing sketches into TV shows, a cult following and much more we're going to get into today.

So please, hop brethren and sister, and welcome to the Hop Breathiverse.

The one, the only, Sam Brown, everyone welcome.

Sam.

Oh, wow, that's crowded room you got there.

Hey, thanks for having me.

Of course.

Yeah, I love sketch comedy, and it's a topic we don't talk about that much in here.

And I know before the show we were saying, you know, all comedy, learning all the skills help the other.

But just to kind of kick it off here.

When it comes to sketch comedy, how do you kind of know what ideas to pursue?

It's kind of like with stand up, a lot of the times we're looking for, okay, what's a funny moment in life?

Or what is something I'm emotionally connected to that angers me or confuses me that I want to find the funny in?

And in sketch comedy, is there, like, do you find the parallel there?

Or how have you.

Because you do it at the highest level.

So I'm here to learn, basically.

Well, I mean, like, anything, it is a thing of, like, you're throwing a lot of ideas at the wall and, you know, like, the ideas that succeed are the ideas that succeed, the ideas that make it through all the rounds of, you know, like, you know, you pitch the ideas and then you go through the ideas you pitched and go, like, I like this.

I don't like this.

And then you go, all right, like, this is the idea we're going to go with.

And then you write up the draft, and then you critique that first draft, and then you do the rewrites, and then, you know, hopefully it's funny enough to put on its feet.

And then, like, after that, because with Whitest Kids, we were a college group and typical, like, hey, we just want to have friends kind of college sketch group.

And there was like 11 people in it.

And we did it all throughout college and towards the end of college had this realization that, like, all right, if we want to be, like, serious about this and, like, be committed to this, it needs to be like a more focused thing with a more, like, concise idea of, like, more of a concise voice.

And so that's.

We kind of evolved into the smaller group, and for, like, five months, we were, like, just, like, doing, like, standup shows.

We were the assholes being like, all right, that was a great sketch comedian or great standup comedian.

Now you guys all have to watch our little plays.

I know what you guys.

I know what everyone wants to do is change gears in the middle of this show.

And then we had this opportunity to do a weekly show in the Lower east side, and they.

We were like.

We gave them a tape of ours with all these sketches, and the people at this bar were, like.

Looked at the tape, and they were like, I don't fucking care if this is good or not.

I just want to know, can you fill the room every week?

And we were like, yeah.

Which is like the.

What I consider the smartest, dumbest thing we ever said in the whitest kid's career.

Because, you know, like, it was a huge opportunity for us to do that much work, but we did not realize how much work it would be.

And so we were like, every week, you know, like, if you're a standup, you can, like, go up every week and be like, well, this is kind of a funny idea.

Let me, like, say this for the three minutes in between these two comedians and talk about it and hear it and think about if that's something I connect to and use that as a opportunity for me to do.

And that's like, just, you know, that's the rhythm of it.

But if you're a sketch comedian doing sketch every week, you're like, you do your sketches and you want people to come back, and you realize you have to do new sketches, and so you have to write new sketches every week.

And we didn't write 100% new sketches, but we would write, like, at least three.

It'd be like, three would be like a more, like, slow week of new stuff.

And like, you know, like, eight would be a good week, Great week of new sketches.

And then, you know, like, if we were, like, kind of tapped out, we would be like, hey, let's just do, like, a greatest hits of, you know, like, favorites from the past, you know, six months or so.

And.

But, yeah, for, like, three years before we had a TV show, we were doing live shows in the Lower east side every week.

And just the ideas that.

When we wrote the first season of the show, we wrote it in a weekend, and 90% of it was just the stuff that we'd already written for our live show, and it was Just, it was literally like sitting down, making a stack of cue cards, of note cards of the sketches we wanted that we did live, that we thought we could do for the TV show, then going through that and realizing we had too many, and then making the cuts and then being like, all right, first season's done.

Making a show is easy, but that's because we had years of.

Of, like, writing these and then performing them and then being like, oh, well, that joke didn't hit.

Let's, like, cut that out of it the next time we do that sketch and working it out the way a standup would work out, a special or something.

And, yeah, I think, like, for a sketch group, we were very not sketch, like, because, like, there was.

There was a couple other sketch groups that we were kind of, you know, like, contemporaries with, like, Old English and Harvard sailing team and, like, that were, like, around, you know, like.

But for the most part, we were just hanging out with all the standups and pianos was a club where there was no backstage.

So we would do the show, like an improv show where we would be on the stage the whole time.

But that, again, is an amazing learning experience, because if you're doing a show where you're, like, changing costumes and all that, you're on stage for your parts, and then when you're done with your parts, you're off stage.

But, like, we heard.

We were watching every second of every show we did because we were, like, just on stage for all of it.

And if we weren't in the sketch, we were just kind of turned away, like, backlining it.

Were there any epic bombs?

Because, oh, your worst bombs.

I mean, we had.

We.

We had shows that.

I mean, like, that's one thing.

If you're doing sketches every week, you got to learn that, like, hey, sometimes you're going to miss.

I mean, I read this book called the Power of Habit, and there's something really interesting about it, about, like, habit creation and about, like, the things that it takes to do to, like, create a habit and, like, put something in that, like, habitual part of your brain.

And I was thinking about the shows we would do, and it was like, oh, this checks off all of that.

Cause it's like, we would do it every week.

You know, it, like, wasn't a question of us.

Like, hey, should we do it this week?

Should we not do it?

It was like, no, we're meeting Saturday and Sunday.

I just don't have to think about it.

Same place every week.

And then one of the big things is that if to create a habit, you need some sort of reward system.

And for us, it was like, if we.

We did our show on Sunday nights in New York, and we were, you know, a group of five alcoholics who didn't like their nine to five jobs that much.

So it was like, if we had a good show, people would want to hang out and party and drink.

If we had a bad show, people would, you know, like, go home early.

And we.

Yeah, we definitely had a number of bombs.

One, the one particular that I think of, and this isn't fair of me because this isn't my bomb, definitely, like, had some huge bombs, but the one I can think of that, like, Trevor and Darren were insistent, like, this is going to be so funny.

This sort of notorious bomb was.

They had this sketch idea called Too Many Cats, where it was two people, like a guy hanging out with another guy in an apartment, and every step he took, someone would be on the mic in the background.

So, like, every movement, it would be as if they were in the house with too many cats.

And that was the entire sketch.

But, yeah.

No response.

Like, it never.

No.

The audience was just like, no, like, what?

You're stepping on cats.

What?

This is very stupid.

No, but I think in sketch, you kind of have to have that kind of attitude of like, all right, the crowd is either going to love this or they're going to hate this.

And, you know, like, be prepared for them to hate it and don't be afraid of them hating it.

But, you know, hopefully they love it.

Yeah, just have, like, that's.

You just need something that, you know, that they'll love to put up after that in case it does bomb or something that, you know, the love before that.

So you go in with enough good favor where they're like, okay, yeah, this is funny.

They've already told me they're funny.

I can just give them the benefit of the doubt on this one.

Yeah, same thing with standup of kind of couching a newer joke in between more established jokes.

So you kind of get them and then you can experiment and if that doesn't go, you can still bounce back with the next bit.

Yeah.

Where, you know, the punchlines are.

You know, the.

Like, the tent poles in it are.

There's.

I hear I'll get questions all the time from comics about wanting to write more and having that daily habit.

So you read that book and you're a professional writer and you teach sketch comedy as well.

What kind of tips do you have for people who want to write more and have the best intentions to, but still just aren't overcoming that hurdle.

Figure out a system to, like, to keep track of ideas.

Like, I'll say this, is that, like, in the creative industry, in anything creative, like, imposter syndrome is very real.

Like, we all have it.

You'd be surprised at, like, what levels people have that.

And the only real way past that.

And, you know, like, when I say that, I mean, like, you know, people.

There's a lot of people out there who are, like, feel embarrassed if they do something because they're like, oh, I'm.

I'm not that.

Well, the only way past, you know, like, the only way past not being a comic or a sketch comedian is being a comic or being a sketch comedian.

I remember back in the day when I was, like, starting out with white as kids, thinking, like, you know, talking to, like, Eugene Merman and being like, oh, what's it like to be a comic?

And he'd be like, no, you're a comic.

Oh, okay.

I was like, well, what's it like to be a paid comic?

And he goes, you take more cabs.

Oh, that's great.

But, yeah, but, like.

Yeah.

And then, like, getting to that point where I realized that, like, oh, people think of me as this.

And realizing, like, oh, yeah, there's no, like, moment where you're like, you know, you don't graduate into this thing.

You just.

You just are.

You just have to walk the walk.

You just have to, like, do it.

And practically, what that means is, like, what I would say is, figure out your system of keeping track of your ideas.

Trevor had an album called Drunk Text to Myself, and that's because when he would get drunk, he would text himself ideas.

That's what his system was.

He would, you know, like, there was periods where my system was, like, emailing myself with the subject line jokes.

And then when I would sit down to write, I would search my Gmail for jokes and then see these, you know, documents with, like, crazy ideas.

Like, you know, and it's like.

Like, it's not that, like, any of them are good.

It's that there's something there, though.

And those are, like, the nuggets that you can take.

They're like, you know, like the hunks of clay you can take and you can mold into the thing that is the joke.

And it doesn't matter if that stuff is good.

It's probably bad.

It's probably crazy.

There's always stories that I, you know, hear from people who, like, you know, are sketch writers.

Like, there's some, like, I would talk about with Trevor about, like, you'd wake up from a dream and you'd have a dream that you wrote the best sketch ever.

Like, your dream was you wrote the greatest sketch and if you didn't, like, write it down right then you would forget it.

But there are those times where you'd, like, write it down and you would read it the next day and be like, that's fucking crazy, right?

Yeah.

I think both Trevor had a dream that he actually made as a sketch back when he was Doom PAX tv.

His show where he was doing.

He was taking Finding Roadkill and doing Hamlet with it.

And it was funny.

It was like, later I had a dream where it was Muppets doing Shakespeare.

And so it's funny that we both were like, in our dreams, had this Shakespeare crazy thing and just like.

No, it seems.

But I mean, it is the habit of, like, keeping track of your ideas.

It's the ha.

It's that fill books with, like, random things.

People have good ideas all the time.

It's just most of the time they're like, oh, that's nothing.

I'm going to throw that away.

Or they don't sit down and flesh it out.

They just.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

They don't actually just show up to the page, I guess.

I think a lot of times people maybe overcomplicate and think every time they sit down the right.

They have to create something amazing.

But most of it is just nonsense when you sit down to write.

Yeah.

Just.

Just make something.

Yeah.

I mean, and like, you know, I notice, you know, with my sketch classes that, like, a lot of times, A lot of times that I like.

Like, if I have, like, someone who is, like, green, who's like, never written anything before, one of the things that I really have to get them past is they will, you know, they'll be swinging for the fences and they will be like, I need something that's so funny.

And instead of trying to think of something that's funny, just something that they find funny.

Just one thing that they find funny in trying to, like, express that thing, they come in with this idea that starts at one place and it goes to this other thing.

And then there's this joke out of nowhere and then.

And all of a sudden they have this piece that's.

That's nothing because it's.

It's got too much going on.

It's all these things because they couldn't, like, commit to an idea and be confident about, like, oh, this is the idea.

I'M trying to express.

And so it's.

It's a lot to, like, you know, like, convince someone, like, you're funny.

You have found things funny in the past, and you have been correct that those things are funny.

And for you to be funny in a practical way, it's about, you know, like, finding that thing that you think is funny and then expressing that one thing.

And it might not be the best thing that's ever been written, but it's something funny, and you can find something else funny.

And, like, to not.

It takes.

It's so much about, like, convincing someone, like, hey, don't try and write something great.

Try and write something good.

Mm.

Because greatness will be decided.

You know, like, greatness, like brilliance and inspiration, those things will occur and will kind of, like, you'll hit something.

You'll hit on something, and you'll be like, oh, this is.

I am really enjoying this.

And then you'll put that effort that makes that thing great into it that, like, really kind of brings that thing out.

But, like, before you get there, it's just about doing that good thing and trying to do that good thing as best as you can do it, and.

Just the singular thing.

Almost like having a premise and just making it all around this premise, as opposed to trying to bring in the whole kitchen sink.

You have this singular kernel just building around that world.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And once you kind of get used to that, too.

Like, that's the tricky thing is that, like, people, especially, like, in my sketch classes, it's all, like, people think that, you know, I'm giving them rules, and I'm like, no, none of this is rules.

That's the whole thing with comedy is there are not rules.

There are guidelines.

There are things that I have found to work, and I will share that with you, these things that I've found to work.

But I am by no chance saying, like, this is something you can do.

This is something you can't do.

Mm.

And that you saying Shakespeare made me think of the Abraham Lincoln sketch that y'all did.

So that.

That sketch, for people who haven't seen it, they.

You gotta go watch it on YouTube.

But that has a premise, basically, around the premise, basically around, like, what if Abraham Lincoln died a different way than history told?

Is that kind of where the idea started?

And then y'all just kept building out around, what if this?

Or what if that based on this premise?

Well, the idea was sort of a novelty idea, I would say.

That is that.

That was.

There were two sketches we wrote around that Time.

Abraham Lincoln being one of them and the other one being the line leader sketch.

I remember, like, we, like, kind of brainstorm those ideas, I think, on the same night.

But the thing, like, the big kind of novelty with the ideas was that we would do something, you know, like, with Abraham Lincoln, we do it.

Something that would start as a play on stage, mind you.

You know, we're on.

We're in a small, you know, live room in the back of a bar, and we're doing it on stage.

And then the sketch would spill out into the audience, and you'd hear someone heckling the play from the back of the room.

And so that was like.

The whole thing was that, like, the tech booth for this room was in the very back of it.

And so we would, like.

We'll have Zach in the tech booth doing something.

And so we're like, all right, what's something that we can have going on stage?

I don't know.

A play.

What's a play?

Shakespeare.

Okay.

What's going on in Shakespeare?

Who the fuck cares?

Vampires?

I don't know.

Othello and Hamlet or doing some bullshit.

I don't know.

That's funny.

And then, like, who interrupts it?

You know, just someone who's, like a loud talker in the theater, and it's funny.

We have before.

The conversation about this sketch having a sort of racial connotation has come up before, huh?

Because of the sort of the stereotype of like.

Like the black theater goer talking in the movie theater.

But the funny thing.

I gave it a lot of thought.

And the funny thing about that is, mind you, we were all living in New York at the time, and the movie theater experience, that's what it was in New York, was like movie theaters.

People would talk in the theater, and that's just like, the way it was.

And it wasn't like you'd be like, oh, like, shut up.

It was just like, all right.

That's just like, this is.

I'm in a very talkative theater tonight, you know?

And so I.

I think, you know, like, when someone brought that up, it was like kind of this thing of like, oh, yeah, I guess that is a thing.

But, yeah, it's just more of who's a funny heckler?

And then Abraham Lincoln.

And then like, yeah, yeah, Abraham Lincoln.

It was like, what if someone was heckling the play?

All right, well, who'd be funny?

Abraham Lincoln, famously, in the theater.

Okay.

And what if we had someone who was, like, getting in a fight with them to, like, that's Like, a natural thing to that.

All right, well, who would that be?

Oh, well, what if that turns out to be John Wilkes Booth?

And that turns out to be how that whole thing.

And so it's like the sketch really presented itself from there.

Like, if you take it from that route of like, hey, let's do a sketch that takes place in a theater and use the whole, like, theater audience setting as the stage, it kind of naturally presents itself organically.

Yeah.

And that really.

That really connects with me, with you saying, you know, try to write something good, and then you may end up being great.

Because watching that sketch, I'm like, oh, I bet they thought, oh, it would be funny if Abraham Lincoln died a different way.

But it's fun to hear the actual kernel and premise was around, oh, a heckler at a play.

And then from that premise, you then heightened it to exaggerate and see what you could do with this.

And that's more of a fun idea to me as well.

Like, oh, there's a heckler.

Okay, what's the setting?

Who's doing it?

What happens that.

I like that organic route to heightening to Abraham Lincoln.

But it didn't start there.

It had to start with, okay, here's a good idea about a heckler in the room.

Now let's try to build on that.

And it's just kind of building from that strong foundation.

Yeah.

It's funny because, like, you know, we.

That's where, like, pianos was, where we learned how to write sketch.

I mean, we were writing sketch in college and we were doing it, and some of the stuff we made in college made it to the TV show.

But for the most part, I would say, like, pianos, that practice of, like, doing it in the room was where we, like.

And you don't actively be like, oh, I've learned this lesson.

Oh, I'm going to put this in my pocket.

You just kind of naturally kind of pick up on this stuff.

And that's where we developed our style and sort of.

You know, it's funny because you're also like, as you go, like, creating terminology for things.

You know, we used to, like, you know, like, constantly talk about tent pole sketches of, like, needing them per show, of, like, being like, all right, yeah, we're going to need this.

And then, like, you know, but that concept is something that exists everywhere.

Like, we were.

When we were doing, like, when we were starting out, a big part of our style of, like, creating was, like, just doing brainstorms in meetings.

It was just like, hey, let's sit and, like, let's brainstorm ideas for a while, write stuff down on paper, and then let's, like, you know, like, tape writers room style, like, go around and read out our ideas.

And when we first started doing that, it was not productive at all because someone would read an idea and someone else would be sitting there and go, no, that's not funny.

And after a while, we were like, hey, all right, here's the rule.

Don't say anything about the sketch unless you're adding to it.

And instantly we were, like, writing stuff.

We were hitting stuff.

We were getting, like, someone would say something, and it would be a not funny idea.

An idea that, like, just, like, wouldn't work.

And then someone would be like, what if that was this?

And then someone else would be like, oh, yes, that is funny.

And then that would develop into this.

This bigger idea.

And we all of a sudden would do these brainstorming sessions and we would get these great ideas that, like, three people would kind of have a major part.

And we were like, oh, this is great.

This is such a good way to come up with comedy.

We were brilliant for thinking of this idea of looking at someone else's idea and just instead of saying no, we just say yes.

And we did it, guys.

We embedded groundbreaking.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But it's getting out of your own head, and that's a great way to get out of your own way.

Just like, people not writing more because they're.

They're negating any possibility to find something funny just by the sheer mentality they're approaching the creative process with totally.

Or, like, you know, you could be negating someone else's.

Right, exactly like that.

Like, you could be like, I don't see it.

And just by saying that, there could be someone who's, like, just about to say a great idea, and then it's just like, oh, no, I guess my idea is stupid.

And I think that's the thing that, like, it's, like, tough for people to learn is that, like, the way you feel about a great idea is often shame.

Like, I don't know.

Like, I feel like the best ideas I've come up with, I've pitched in a way where I've been like, people are gonna hate this.

People are gonna be upset that I said this, and they're gonna make me leave the room.

And I just think there's something funny about, like, the way we approach things, where I honestly think it has to do with if we genuinely find something funny, we're afraid people are going to reject It.

Because then people will be rejecting us, and if we don't.

If, you know, we don't think something's funny, if you're like, hey, give me an idea, and I'm like, space dragons that got boobs.

And you don't like that, I'm like, oh, yeah, that's because space dragons that have boobs is a dumb idea that I just came up with right now.

But if I, like, spent all this time on an idea and I brought it into you and it was like this, like, idea I really liked, I'd probably be like, yeah, this thing.

This is stupid.

Let's not read my idea.

It's stupid.

So good ideas feel bad, and often we need.

We need a helpful creative environment to help us feel safe enough to present those.

And that's.

I think one of the strong things that I had with, you know, like, with Whitest kids was, like, just a place where I knew I could say something and people would not assume I'm, you know, just a horrible person who, you know, is just very stupid and worthless.

And, you know, because, like, there's plenty of me thinking that right.

Right now that, like, yeah, yeah, I should just, you know, just kind of just go sit in a corner somewhere and let life happen and be like, all right, I've done enough.

I'm out.

But, you know, so I think that, like, that's the great thing about Sketch is that it does sort of provide those rooms for people and those places for people to, like, see potential in these things and to help bring it out of each other because, you know, sorry, I am rambling on and on about this.

No, you're not.

Learning from you, Sam.

This is all relevant.

Don't worry.

Ever since you said dragons with boobs, you're like, oh, I shouldn't have done that.

We should start over.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Can we cut this out?

Wait, this is live?

Oh, no, it was live.

I had to end it because you said that it's over now, but YouTube's got involved.

Aw.

No, this is all relevant.

You're being very helpful, Sam.

It's all.

Yeah, you're right on point here, buddy.

Yeah, but, yeah, I mean, like.

Like that thing, like, I feel like with Whitest kids, I mean, you know, like, not to say anything about, like, the successes that anyone had, but I truly do think it was a thing where, you know, we were a Voltron.

We were a thing where the.

The hole was greater than the parts and.

Or at least there was something special about the whole.

And something special about those five Voices coming together and making the stuff that they made.

And, you know, I think anything that's, like, creative, you'll get, like, some version of the 8020 rule, which is like, 20% of the people do 80% of the work.

And, you know, I think you could.

You could look at white as kids and be like, you know, like, oh, yeah, like, Trevor did all the work.

But, like, I think it was like, there's definitely something about Trevor working with all of us that, like, Trevor definitely was, like, the leader within the group.

But I.

There just.

I think something not to be.

Be, like, grandiose about this thing that I did, but there was definitely something I thought that was, like, really special about the group of five people that made the thing that we made.

And, yeah, it's weird and it's beautiful and it's flawed, but, like.

Yeah.

And that's part of the thing I love about sketch comedy, is that that's what it's a platform for, is, like, a group voice.

You got to think with social media, it's more accessible than ever now as well.

Yeah.

Anyone can learn sketch comedy and just pick up a phone and in a month be the next biggest name in comedy.

You know, if it plays out in a certain way, things.

If they're creating shareable content and whatnot.

And I did see you.

Yeah.

If, you know.

Yeah.

If you get a certain president elected.

Yeah, you could be a big name in comedy.

You can do a certain impression.

You could just blow up just on.

Yeah, yeah.

Riley.

Riley Galvin asked in the live chat about your sketch with Almost Friday tv, who was like, younger generation.

These guys built this whole social media platform, and now they're just huge, and you got to work with them.

So, like, any cool memories of that experience or.

What was so funny about that was.

I got funny to me was like, I got a message from Dan St.

Germain, who I know from New York, and he was working with Tyler Falbo from Almost Friday, who directs a lot of their stuff.

And they, like, he mentioned that he knew me, and so he was like, hey, can I, you know, connect you guys?

And I was like, yeah, sure, go ahead.

And I.

And Tyler was like, hey, do you want to do a sketch?

And I did not know Almost Friday, but I was like, yeah, sure, I'll be in your sketch.

Yeah, I like Dan.

And so then, like, it's that thing where I'm, like, not really thinking about it, and it's the day before the shoot, and I get an email, and it's like, all right, hey, here's your call sheet.

And I was like, oh, cool.

This is like a real thing.

They got call sheets.

Cool.

Like, I was like, honestly, like, fine with showing up and it being like, all right, this is my roommate's camera, right?

And I walk in and they were like, the guys all there and they.

And I was like, so tell me about your group.

And they were like, yeah, you know, we're all like, we were all like doing stuff on social media and this company found us and they got us all together and like, made us like a group together.

And I was like, oh, so you're like a boy band?

Yeah, I guess we're like a.

I guess like, all right, cool.

Boy band.

And I was like.

And I came in and I was like, so let me tell you a thing or two about like, I remember just like being like, all right, yeah, this is cute, this little thing that you're trying here.

And but then like, the sketch is like a really funny sketch.

I really dug the sketch and had a blast doing it.

And they were like talking about sketch.

And like they're, you know, it's like that thing where, you know, someone speaks the same language, you know, like they're talking about like the turn and stuff like that.

And I remember there was this thing where in the sketch, if you haven't seen it, it's like this guy is like, oh, my dad will buy us beer.

And then the dad buys beer for all the guy and his friends and then just like hangs out with them and is like, makes things real awkward real fast.

And then at the end of the sketch, the guy's like, oh, sorry about my dad.

And everyone's like, yeah, that was awesome.

And the guy's like, what kind of thing?

Uh huh.

As you would expect.

And we shot the end of it and I think it was Liam's sketch.

Liam Cullah.

And he was like, oh, why don't like at the end here, Angus, like, why don't you just like, instead of being like, what, do like a.

Yeah, my dad's pretty cool.

Do that kind of thing.

And it was like, yeah, that's how you end the sketch.

The audience is looking for the character to be embarrassed.

The audience is.

And it's like that sort of like talking about the math and the sort of turn and on your toes like realizing like, oh, yeah, this is the natural way this is heading.

Let's do a 3, 180 on that.

And it's like, that was great.

And then all of a sudden the sketch came out and they had, like, you know, like, instantly it was like, you know, like, all, like, my, like, little cousins and stuff were like, hey, I saw you do something finally.

And I was like, oh, these guys have millions of followers and huge, huge.

But it's great because, like, it is.

I love that.

It's like they're, you know, they're talking the talk.

You know, you look at their sketches, and there is a kind.

They're playing with structure and expectation, and that's what I get excited about.

I'm going to.

Actually, I was expecting to talk about this, but I'm going to go into it now that we're talking about it, is everyone's been talking about this SNL thing lately is this.

This.

They do a monkey sketch that's very similar to a space monkey sketch that we did.

And everyone's like, oh, SNL ripped you off.

And it's like, it's not the first time that we've had that conversation.

Like, that, like, oh, SNL has ripped us off.

And throughout the years, I've, you know, like, come to grips with the fact that, like, someone's gonna come up with an idea similar to an idea that you've done, and, like, that's just gonna happen, and it's fine.

They're like, you know, and the bummer, I think, for where we're at is that, like, oh, yeah, SNL is such a whale.

Like, it is such, like, has so many eyes on it.

It's like, okay, like.

And you just at some point have to be like.

And, like, it's exciting that, like, it brings attention to the original sketch, which I think is really good.

But I remember watching their version of the sketch, and.

And, like, no knock to the writer of that sketch, but there was a period, a moment.

Have you seen the sketch?

Do you know what I'm talking about?

No, I haven't seen it.

So, yeah, it's like this space monkey thing.

We have a similar space monkey thing.

And there was a point of their sketch where I was like, hats off.

They did it better.

And then it never quite took that structured turn that I wanted it to take, and I got, like, a little, like, frustrated with it.

And that's.

I mean, I think I watch snl, and I like, a very, like, the way that, like.

And not again.

When I get, like, talking about comedy, I get like.

I feel like I sound like such an asshole.

Like, but, like, I feel like I watch snl, like, how like, like, Tony Dungey or someone watches a football game.

How Tony Romo watches a Football game where I'm like trying to be like, oh, you gotta do this.

When you're in that position, you gotta do this.

And just like.

But part of me is just like, oh, I wish I was in there playing.

But yeah, I have, you know, no ill feelings to anyone of the that was involved in the SNL sketch or like, and like I'm not like, oh my.

There's definitely bigger fish to fry than SNL doing a similar sketch to a 10 year old whitest kid sketch.

Do you think they took the idea?

No, no, no.

I think.

Parallel thought.

Parallel thought.

I think, I think one of the things is that, you know, like one of the things that people are like, this is a smoking gun.

Is that the monkey in their sketch is called Beppo.

In the monkey in our sketch it's called Bobo.

Yeah, it's a monkey name.

Like make a list of monkey names and try and not have a name close to Bobo or Beppo on it.

You know, you're giving them a lot of credit.

I'll have to compare and contrast them.

Yeah, yeah, check it out.

But like just know you're the originator.

So you would know more than I would.

I'm happy that our sketch is our sketch and I think that they, you know, their sketch is great and but there is part of me that while watching it was like, oh, they like, they missed this turn here.

That would have created more conflict and had more of a direct comedic payoff.

Uh huh.

So is that in.

Alyssa in the live chat was talking about when she took a class with you, you were teaching them about like naming the game of the sketch.

So are these like phrases within like the structure of a set, like or a sketch the game.

The turn is these kind of like tent poles you have within a sketch.

Yeah, I mean like, like the game is like, you know, like we like when the game we kind of picked up from ucb, but we're like playing with it, you know, like before, you know, I talk about like this whole like, like vocabulary of stuff.

There isn't like a book of terminology that you need to get down.

It's sort of like the words that sort of, you know, do the job of describing the thing.

It's not like anyone can be like, hey, use the term of the game wrong, you know, but like, oh yeah.

Other comedians reference the game as well.

It's, it's a common term, but it's a very powerful tool.

But like the game go back to like what we were saying earlier about having that like One thing, and I think that's an important thing with.

With sketch, is realizing that, like, people are looking for that thing that this thing is about.

And, you know, you don't have to, like, necessarily play ball.

You don't necessarily have to, like, cater to that 100%, but you have to accept that people are looking for that.

And, like, you will put people at ease if you're like, hey, this is what we're doing.

And if people can see where the joke's coming from, they're more likely to, like, buy into what you're doing because, you know, no one wants to laugh at the wrong thing.

Mm.

So as we get ready to land the plane here, I think we would be remiss if you have any closing advice for the next generation of chameleons and creators out there of kind of what you've learned that maybe you could bestow upon the next generation to help us keep comedy getting better and better and just moving the medium forward.

Say, figure it out.

You know, like, come on, guys, fucking figure it out.

Can you guys, like, just, like, fucking get your shit together?

No, no.

Get over yourself and just do the work.

Yeah, figure it out, though.

Like.

Like, honestly, figure it out any way you can.

Like, don't look for the path that's already been paved, and look for that place where you can express yourself.

And I see people all the time coming up with, like.

You know, you'll see people being like, oh, like, I'm gonna start.

You know, no one does this kind of sketch on TikTok.

Okay, I'm gonna start doing that.

And, you know, look for those opportunities to, like, be like, all right, this is how I'm going to express a joke.

And don't wait for someone to establish that.

Look for just your opportunities to get those eyes on you and to do it and, you know, like, do it and develop it.

And, you know, you might not initially be rewarded for it, but that's.

You know, I remember when we were doing it with whitest kids, when we were, like, at the point where we were about to, like, sell our show, we were like, oh, it's crazy if this works out, because, like, you know, like, everyone talks about paying our dues, and we hadn't really paid our dues at all.

And it's like, thinking back to that, it's like, no.

We were a, you know, a college sketch group for three years doing live shows and putting that work in without any sort of reward.

And then we were doing free shows at a bar every week for three Years before that.

Like, that is what paying your dues is, like.

And some of those shows were, like, people weren't there and weren't going to them.

But then eventually we got a crowd and we got people going, and that's, you know, that is that reward.

And that is what I'm saying.

Like, figure it out.

It's like, bet on yourself in that way of, like, I can.

You know, my work has value, and I can, like, make it good enough.

I don't have to just.

There is this thing where when you come up with something funny, you're like, oh, man, that's so funny.

Because I came up with it.

Don't.

No one wants, like, never make comedy from the place that you think people want to laugh at.

You always make it from that place where you assume everyone hates you.

Because, look, how many times have you been at a sketch show and been like, if we're all comedy people here, there's like.

I mean, I guess maybe some people are not.

But, like, there's so many times that I find myself at a comedy show, and I'm thinking, well, I hope this doesn't take long.

And that might be a great show.

That show might be amazing.

I might laugh at something at that show.

Like, I've never laughed before, but I'm always going into it with that.

I hope this doesn't, you know, like.

And, like, if someone is like, oh, I can't wait for this.

Let's see what they got.

Like, great, awesome.

But chances are they're not that.

And you got to figure out how to make those people laugh.

That's what it is.

And this is.

Sorry I'm stretching this out so much.

I'll say this, too.

It's like, we're known for being sort of offensive and edgy and offensive and edgy has become this sort of, like, divisive, like, place that in comedy lately, you know?

And I think really the thing is, is that, like, again, if that's who you want to be, don't just be that.

Figure it out.

Like, figure out how to do that thing and to get people to laugh.

Like, I definitely, as a sketch teacher, have people come in and, like, pitch a sketch, and I go, oh, you know, like, that's kind of sexist or, like, that's kind of racist.

That's kind of.

That's probably gonna rub people the wrong way.

And they're like, what the fuck?

Why can't I do that?

And it's like, well, because you can.

You haven't figured it out.

Like, you haven't figured out how to say what you're saying without making it come off as racist or come off as offensive to people.

And that, you know, that is gonna make people not want to laugh.

So is it just figuring out if it's initially racist or sexist?

How do you then kind of walk that line where it's still funny?

You figure out, like, what detail, like, if it something that, like, hopefully its core.

You're not trying to be racist or sexist.

And so you have to figure out, like, how to make sure your perspective is clear and how to make sure that people can go, oh, that joke is sort of maybe.

You know, I came from an era where, like, the 2000s.

I think a huge thing in the 2000s was ironic sexism, ironic homophobia, ironic misogyny.

And the problem is, is that now stuff's not that clearly ironic anymore.

Like, some people are just, like, a lot more okay with being, like, in the mid-2000s.

People were like, at least, you know, like, as far as they were presenting, we're like, hey, guys, we all agree that, like, racists suck, right?

And people were like, yeah.

And it's like, well, so I'm going to make this joke.

Like, I remember David Cross, he said the N word on his album.

The Shut up, you fucking babies, I think was the album.

Do you remember?

Do you remember that?

But.

And it was like, he goes in the middle of the album, he goes, you know what I hate?

And then he just says the N word and he goes, can you imagine?

Can you imagine if I took that turn at this point?

Can you imagine if I did that for real?

Like, that was the point of the joke.

And.

Yeah, but.

And that was like, sort of the thing was like, whoa, he, like, went in there heavy.

He went in there hard.

And I think at that time, we could laugh at that.

But, like, I think now you just.

People are, like, more emboldened in their prejudices that there isn't as much apparent irony to this stuff.

So you need to figure out where that.

Where to, like, make that clear and how to make that clear.

And.

And, you know, like, it's not always just, like, doing the thing of, like, oh, there's some guy.

Like, if you're making a sketch, it's not always just having another person be like, hey, you can't say that.

It's like, really figuring out what you're trying to say and where you're trying, say the humor is and not just being like, oh, we just did the naughty thing.

Yeah.

And having that pure intention, like you said, making sure it's very clear.

Your intention is not to.

Yes.

You believe this, like, crazy thing that people may be trying to misinterpret, you know, it's funny.

Can I.

Do we have time for me to keep going?

Yeah, you know, yeah, we're good.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're good.

Is I not to, like, talk about.

I try not to be too specific about anything that's happened in class, but I remember I had someone in class who had something that would, like, came off as homophobic in the sketch.

It was one of their first sketches, and they said, and it's not.

I don't get, like, upset that, like, people make a joke and it comes off as homophobic.

It's.

What's frustrating is, like, when you're like, hey, that comes off as homophobic.

And they go, well, it's not.

It's not what I was trying to do.

And that's like.

And they get defensive, and instead of, like, just, like, trying to see what the.

You know, like.

Because I'm not.

Yeah, I do like it if people are not being homophobic.

But also at the same time, I'm trying.

Like, the thing I'm trying to stick to is, like, this is what.

Like, try and say something and be clear about what you're saying.

And right now, it's a little.

Not clear for me.

But so, anyway, so this person did something that was, like, a little, like, homophobic.

It did not go over well, and it was a big class, and sometimes you never know how the conversations are going.

Luckily, like, this was a really supportive class that, like, people were like.

Were like, hey, yeah, it's just not funny.

It's just, like, it really, like, the joke doesn't play.

It's kind of tired.

It's not like, anything that feels new.

It's just kind of, you know, like, the.

It just doesn't play.

And then the next person was a trans woman in my class sitting.

And I sitting in front of, like, the trans flag, the trans pride flag.

And she did, like, felt nervous about reading her sketching class.

And she was like, can we not?

And I was like, no, no, no.

We should read your sketch.

She was like, well, maybe I should.

Because, like, part of what I was saying was like, no one knows who wrote the sketch, and so they want, like, you know, when you're watching a sketch, you know, you want to, like, you want to invest in that person.

You want it, like.

And sometimes if you get the vibe that you're like, oh, I Don't really like this person.

You might be less likely to laugh at it and less open to laugh at it.

So this person was like, you know, I was thinking about what you were saying about not knowing who wrote the sketch, and so I feel weird about reading the sketch.

And then so.

And I was like, no, no, no, let's read.

It'll be fine.

It'll be fine.

And then they read the sketch, or we had people read the sketch, and it was this sketch about a TSA agent complaining about trans rights in bathrooms and doing that whole thing and, like.

And a TSA agent while frisking someone and, like, being, like, so over the top.

Like, all right, spread your butt cheeks.

Being like, yeah, and I just can't, you know, like, what if those people are in the bat?

Like this?

And the class.

It was great.

It went over great.

And it's.

The perspective was, like, so clear with what they were saying, and the context was there and the.

And it was, like, night and day from the other sketch.

And it was a very.

It was a very nice moment.

I don't know.

Like, it was very, like, one of those funny.

It also.

It takes it out of you to have these, like, conversations where you're like, all right, like, we're gonna spend half a class talking about this one joke, and, like, some people are going to get so into it, and, like, it'll be, like, such a.

Like, a whale of a thing.

And I honestly, like, both ways.

I'm just trying to, like, come out of it where people just are, like, more kind of aware of themselves, you know?

But it was such a great moment where the trans woman sketch, like, really showed everyone, like, oh, that's a very clear sketch that talks about a topic that makes a lot of people uncomfortable but has a airtight perspective and is done in a very, like, gettable way.

And, like, as evidence, the fact that, like, I'm just able to, like, blurt out what their sketch was, and you can instantly see that.

So.

So, yeah, just figure it out.

Like, that was someone who figured out their sketch.

And if your sketch.

If people are like, hey, that's fucked up, figure it out.

And you have hearing that, too, and not be like, oh, they're just being sensitive.

They don't get comedy.

You can.

If you're gonna play that game, you've got to be willing to, you know, accept the consequences of it as well or empathize with people who may get upset about it and work on getting the joke better and not just getting bitter about it.

Yeah, People think that people getting bitter about something you said is like an affront to their freedom of speech.

No, it's not an affront of the freedom of speech.

The freedom of speech means they are free to feel however they feel about what you just said.

I.

I really liked what Anthony Jeselnik said on the topic where he.

In an interview, not the thing that he wrote recently, but like in a separate interview he was like, yeah, all these comics are like, hey, if you don't like it, then get the fuck out.

And it's like, I'm sorry, dude, but that's not the job.

The job is to make people laugh.

If people aren't laughing at your joke, you're not doing the job.

Uh huh.

Yep.

Big facts.

Yeah.

And Dubs general asked if that sketch would have been considered homophobic if the person wasn't trans that created the joke.

No, I think the perspective was clear.

Yeah, right.

Yeah, I think any.

Yeah, yeah, I don't think.

Yeah, yeah, I agree with that.

It's just it was actually well done in a way.

Like you said, it had a funny context and a funny game veiled in this more social commentary of someone being transphobic.

It's just a character in the sketch that wasn't almost the punchline, I guess.

I mean, I.

We did the sketch the gay football league and I think that that sketches is.

We land that joke and none of us are 100% gay and white as kids.

You know, I think we're probably all 40% gay.

But you know.

As a collective or each is it you add up to each other.

I would say each one of us is 40% gay.

Oh, okay.

Okay.

One of us and white as kids.

Oh, man.

Yeah, this was great.

I feel like there's so much more in the sketch.

Like you said, the turn and the structure of a sketch and things that I think we can definitely get into.

And I think people can.

I'm assuming in your class you probably get into the structural formatting and things.

Yeah, that's the first three classes now that I teach.

I have the first class is the main focus is about structure and about like talking about different types of structure.

And I really think that like structure is the not to this sounds like a mixing but like structure is the foundation of sketch comedy and everything.

Like once you get structure, you kind of can like play off that.

And like really what structure is is knowing what people are expecting and writing to that.

And so it's funny.

Like actually this week or tonight I have class and what we're Going over is it's like the week seven class of the eight week class.

And tonight we're doing the outside of the box sketch.

So basically in all the classes I do structure, structure, structure, structure, structure.

And then right before the end I go, all right, now let's do like be crazy with it.

Because all the times I get people who are like, oh, I'm going to be crazy with it from the get go.

And it's like, no, just like, I know you might hate it, but just play the structure game so that when we get later on into it, you can see what it's like to play.

With that structure and kind of learning the rules before you break them.

Exactly, exactly.

Yeah.

Well, where can people, if they want to sign up for one of your classes or connect with you, what's the best place to do that?

And I'll be sure to link it in the show notes as well.

You can email me@infombrownuniversity.com or you could go to sambrownuniversity.com and sign up for my mailing list there.

And then I will, you know, when I'm about to offer classes.

Actually, I'm about to send this out, but now is actually a really great time to sign up for this because I'm about to have some Black Friday deals.

Oh, nice.

And yeah, and offering.

I have the next group of classes is going to start in 2025 in January.

And yeah.

So sambroun university.com, email me at info at sambarownuniversity.

Com.

And you can also get merch.

I got merch.

It looks like a real college.

Very nice.

And for people who want to dive more into the widest kids, you know, there are clips online and on December 3rd, they're doing like a marathon on Shout TV where you can go dive in to the whole world there.

December 8th, we're doing the marathon on Shout TV.

Eight top 10 episodes.

December 3rd, our box sets being released.

All five seasons of Whitest Kids, you know, will be released.

For the first time ever, we're having a box set.

Congratulations.

That's so cool, man.

Thank you.

On digital video disc.

It's coming out on digital video disc.

That's DVD for all you kids out there.

DVD.

Yes.

December 3rd, the box set is coming out.

And then December 8th there will be a marathon on Shout TV.

And then of course, go check out Sen's classes.

This guy, this is one of the best in the biz.

And I know when I just started posting, you were on here gonna be on here.

People were elated.

And you had students in the live chat here talking about how amazing your classes are and just what amazing time it was to even get you on this show.

Because you really do share that same spirit we have here at Hot Breath of Comics.

Helping comics and putting in the work as well.

You know, that's a big part of this as well.

So this was really fun for me.

I hope I didn't talk too much.

No, no.

You did great.

And we appreciate everyone for watching live.

We do these live streams every single Tuesday at 5:00pm Eastern Standard Time.

So join our email list, linked in the show notes to where I send you weekly updates on these live streams and other hot Breath happenings we have.

And until next Tuesday.

We'll see y'all next week.

Bye.

Bye.

Breath.