David:

[0:00] Question for you. Have you hit the ceiling of achievement in your business or worse, are you so tied up with operating your business that you don't have time to breathe or see anything else in life? You may be what we call the founder's trap. The founder's trap is a trap where business owners walk into when they start a business and neglect to build systems in their business as a business grows. And the result is that they have their fingers in everything and can't let go for fear of it's all going to collapse. And so I brought Debbie Simmons on today, not just because of her great story of how God has worked in her life and her business and everything, but she has also figured out how to help others grow out, basically how to work themselves out of a job and escape this founder trap. Debbie Simmons is a community activist, businesswoman, wife, mother of nine adopted children, and most importantly, a devoted follower of Christ. And her boots on the ground experience, hearted wisdom, and faith-centered approach will help you build a business or nonprofit, family, or life legacy, depending on what you want to do there. Her inspiring testimony of living love without regard to risk imparts you to boldly walk through the doors God is opening for you with no worries. Debbie is not a coach. She is a builder, and she will inspire you to build a business, family, or life, and legacies that you have dreamed. And Debbie will teach you how to be an impact player in the kingdom, both now and for eternity. I know it's a long introduction, but Debbie, thank you for coming on the show. Welcome.

Debbie:

[1:27] Thank you for having me. It's going to be fun.

David:

[1:30] Yeah. And so before we start off, I always like to ask my listeners, what is one way that you have found in your business that you can honor God that other people may or may not know about?

Debbie:

[1:42] That they may not know about. I personally think the way we honor God the best is in the little things that we do when no one is looking. And, you know, am I a person of integrity? Am I a person of humility and surrender? That if I can get those things right as a leader, then things are going to be

Debbie:

[2:05] all right because I've got my eyes on Him. So for me, it's my relationship with him. How strong is that? So that that flows through me out into the organization that I lead and run and the staff and all that good stuff.

David:

[2:20] Very good. Little things. It's good because little things add up. Little things very much add up. We don't always think about that, but they surely do.

Debbie:

[2:27] Sure. Yeah.

David:

[2:29] So tell us a little bit about your story. You're at Anchor Point right now. What is that and how did God lead you to start that?

Debbie:

[2:38] Well, I'll give you a little bit of the back story because I am an engineer by training and now I'm running a nonprofit, right? And so I go, you don't just get there in a straight line. That's just how it goes. But in my personal story, there is a personal piece of infertility and ultimately getting pregnant with quads and having the boys die in my arms and losing those children. And it was at that point in my life where there was a real delineation. I've always been a Christ follower, but it was like the world went from gray to colored. And it was like I wanted everything to be about eternity. And I just couldn't just go back to my life as an engineer. I thought maybe I could, but I couldn't because it had just changed. It radically changed who I was. And so in the hospital room that night, I really had to just put a stake in the ground and say, God, I'm going to follow you. I don't know how to do this. I want to be a mom and a grandma and all this good stuff. I don't know my way out of this pain. And he gave me a couple of tips. The first one was, give me your why question, because that's what we find, whether we're in business or individuals, why, why, why? And then he said, ask me the question, how do I survive?

Debbie:

[4:01] Or how do I tackle this next thing that you have in front of me? And I just said, okay, how do I survive?

Debbie:

[4:09] I don't know how to do that. And he was like, I want you to breathe and take the next best step. So I just began a journey of taking the next best step. And he met me there and take the next best step. And he met me there. And somewhere that surviving became, okay, I figured that out.

Debbie:

[4:28] Then the question became, how do I ultimately thrive? And when I gave him that question, that gave him a lot of space to be able to begin to do a lot of things in my life. So, you know, ministering to people who have lost children, leading grief groups, this wonderful journey of adoption that we've taken and the children that we've added to our lives, starting of Anchor Point. That was something that he planted. And then, you know, writing the book that I've written and things like that. But all of that comes out of this tragedy of losing children and trusting God with my story, you know, and that took me out of my engineering career, got an additional education, all that good stuff. And God just planted the seed that this is what was next for me, was to build this. And you know what? What's really funny is those things I learned in the hospital. I'm sitting there going, OK, God, how do I build a ministry? I don't know what I'm doing. How do I do this? You know, and how do I, you know, so I don't want to be stuck.

Debbie:

[5:29] So help me, God. And he's like, take the next best step. So that's what I started doing as I began to build Anchor Point to be able to have a kingdom impact and impact literally thousands of families, you know, each and every year. So that's how I kind of got to where I am today.

David:

[5:46] Yeah, I like that point of just, and I've heard other people say it. It's just like, just give me one thing. You know, just God helps you step by step. I've seen many people say, God, I will follow you. I don't know what to do. And God's like, well, just do this one thing first. Okay, go do that one thing. Then do this one thing first. Yeah. I think we as humans make things complex sometimes. Or we want to know everything. And he's just like, just do one thing, one thing at a time.

Debbie:

[6:18] Well, he has a scripture verse that says he lights the path right in front of my feet. OK, and he's not going to tell us the whole journey, because you know what? If he told me the whole journey and the highs and the lows and everything, I would be like, don't sign me up for that. I'm not doing that. I'm not ready for that. Now, I don't regret anything he's taken me through. And, you know, as I look back, I am so grateful as how he's used me. But I'm going, I couldn't handle it. And so he's going, here's what you can handle because I want you to be successful. Here's what you can handle. Here's what you can handle. And I'm like, OK, I got that. So this is where our faith muscle kicks in.

Debbie:

[6:55] And how much do we trust him with our story and that he is writing a good story? And, you know, if my daddy God's got it, I don't have to worry about that. I'm just like, what step? That's all I need to know. Just which one. And let me take it. And then don't worry about, too. I think a lot of times as business owners and stuff, we worry about having the right step and we actually need the best step for us. The right step will paralyze us because we're worried we might miss it, you know, and it might not be perfect. I'm going, no, the best one. What was the best one for us at the moment? And it's really funny. Sometimes my staff will come in my office and they'll be like, oh my gosh, this huge thing's happening. And I'm like, I need you to breathe. Yeah. And we're going to take the next best step. And they're like, well, how are we going to do this? And I'm like, I don't know, but God's got it. He's not surprised by the fact that you're in my office losing it, that we're going to figure it out.

Debbie:

[7:53] And I'm going, he's been faithful. He was faithful in the Bible. And we've seen that. He's faithful today, and he'll be faithful tomorrow. So he's not going to leave us hanging. He's going to show us if we just seek him out. And so that's just been a great thing to incorporate into my life and to use over and over and over again to remind me where my eyes should be and how I should be going about things.

David:

[8:17] Yeah, no, I like that next best step versus what's the perfect step because, and it's just, what do you think? Just run with it. And I think we forget, I'm trying to remind people that God's not good at just getting us to heaven. God's not good at just creation. God's actually good at business too. Do you think he's not good at 21st century business and technology? I think he gave people the know-how, how to do all these things. Yeah. Yeah, he's good at that, too. He can answer your business questions, too, not just Bible questions. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Debbie:

[8:55] Very good. Yeah. Well, I mean, he's a creator, and he's the most creative of all of us. And so this whole world, we should just be amazed that everything is driven by him and nothing is new to him. And so I think when we forget that, we make him a really small God. And I want a really big God because I got news for you. I can't figure it all out.

David:

[9:17] Yeah. James 1.5 says, if you lack wisdom, ask and he'll give it to you. There were no bounds on that of what wisdom he'll give to you.

Debbie:

[9:27] So I always like to go there. Yeah, that's a good one.

David:

[9:31] So at Anchor Point, what actually do you do at Anchor Point?

Debbie:

[9:35] Sure. Anchor Point is focused on helping families thrive. And so we're kind of looking at all kinds of things. We have a medical clinic, our Obria Medical Clinic, that really helps people focus on the question of life for the child that they carry. So we do ultrasounds. We do all kinds of things that come alongside families medically. then we have our Hope Family Center, which is where we do all of our case management. So when a young lady has chosen life, you know, I don't know about you, but my children did not come with instruction manuals would have been very helpful.

Debbie:

[10:11] But I've had to discover the instruction manual is my child. So, you know, when someone chooses life for their child, then you've got all these questions that they have and all these stressors and all these resources, and they just don't know how to make their way in the world. So we do case management with those families, baby mom, baby dad, and we then move them into our HOPE community initiatives, which are all the kind of education they need from prenatal to parenting to working with families with therapeutic camps in the summer that especially like with adopted children and helping those families from trauma backgrounds. And then we also do quite a bit of recovery groups for sexual abuse, abortion recovery, just general trauma. And then we run a maternity home for homeless girls that are pregnant. And it's an 18-month program that allows them to be able to have their baby, figure out what needs to happen educationally, materially. You know, what do we do for a job? How do we sustain ourselves once we have the babies?

Debbie:

[11:14] And it's just a whole beautiful picture of trying to look all across the life spectrum so we can break cycles and their babies don't end up as my clients again, you know, from that perspective. So literally, it touches, you know, even our community, just educating them on how we can be better parents and be present for our children.

Debbie:

[11:36] So it's a blessing to be able to influence families in that way. And, you know, ultimately, it's all centered around Jesus Christ. We know that that is ultimately the, you know, the hope that is there for them. So, yeah.

David:

[11:50] Neat. That's neat because you're helping families and people who are going to choose life and helping them. What's the next best step for them?

Debbie:

[12:00] Yes, very much.

David:

[12:01] Yeah, very good. Very good. Well, we're talking on our pre-call. You talked about how when you're certain people in your organization, you want them to replace themselves or how to work themselves out of a job. And we talked about being in the founder's trap where you are trying to do everything

David:

[12:18] and you help your employees do that. Yeah. How do you help them do that? How do you help somebody in the midst of being tied up with everything, release those responsibilities and grow?

Debbie:

[12:32] Sure. That's a great question. And I'll tell you a little bit just for my mindset as the CEO or as the founder, you know, one of the things that I had to realize early on is that I quickly can become the bottleneck for the ability for the organization to be able to grow and thrive. And it's not that I want to do all these things. It's just that I may be, I could be a little bit of a control freak and want things done a certain way, which there's, that's not necessarily a bad thing, you know, because you want a certain level of quality and wow and everything that you do. But if I am doing everything, then I sometimes cannot take the time to work on the business versus in the business. So I had a young, when I was young, I had a mentor that would come alongside me and he'd go, Miss Debbie, how would the ministry do if you weren't there? And I would go, why are you asking me these questions? I'm like two years old.

Debbie:

[13:34] But I'm like, you know, when he first started asking me, I was like, I'd probably fall totally apart. And then he would just come around in another month and he'd go, how would it be if you weren't here? And so as I continue, he just kind of wired this in me to think this way. And what I found was I had to continually evaluate and, you know, probably at least quarterly look at like, what is it only I can do in the organization? And then who do I need to empower? Or who do I need to hire that can come in and do some of these other pieces so that I can focus on the things that allow us to grow, that only I can do. So I just started kind of living that way. And as we built the organization, what I then did with the staff is I began asking them the same questions. You know, how would it be if you weren't here? Would it still all work? Would it fall apart? You know, and when he would ask me as I got multiple divisions, I would be like, okay, that one would be really good. It'd be just fine. This one would fall apart. This one's about 50%, you know.

Debbie:

[14:41] But it always made me stay very focused on, I need to be thinking about that. And so, one of the things that I do with my staff is I do make them draw out, because we're, we're a lot, we have a lot of volunteers, right? And so, sometimes you got to figure out how to empower volunteers as kind of staff people, too. So, there's some complexities there with whether they get distracted into other things, you know, that, but what I have my staff do is I say, hey, okay, I want you to draw what your ideal organization looks like and put positions all in there. And so they'll draw it out. And I said, like, if money was no limit and, you know, we had double the number of clients or whatever, what would your organization look like? And then I have them go through and I'm like, okay, put on there anybody that you have serving in your ministry or working in your ministry where they fit in there. And I said, then I want you to write your name in every other box. And it's overwhelming when you do that. It's like, oh my gosh. But I'm like, okay, now you know how to recruit volunteers. Now you know how to hire strategically because you're trying to get your picture off of that thing up to the very top. And that's been very good because the goal is work your way out of a job.

Debbie:

[16:05] Work your way out of a job so that you can go and conquer the next big thing. And I think for my staff, sometimes, and even for me, you know, we worry about whether someone can do it as well as we do. So we have to trust and we have to empower and you have to have SOPs and all those good things to make your organization a success. But I also, as the leader, have to be willing to let them grow a little bit and be creative and do the things a little differently. And I can't like try and macromanage that. So it's a constant struggle trying to figure out how to make that happen. But, you know, if we get really good at it, then they will do and be more creative than I could have ever been. And we'll be able to see more clients, have a bigger impact and, you know, do bigger, greater things for God. And so I think that's been that's just been how we've done it all the time. And we're constantly looking at that from that perspective. And I just recently, you know, with the book and doing some of the speaking and things like that, I just went through a whole thing where I was like, oh, my gosh, there's too many things. You know, and I'm sitting here having the same conversation. What can only I, you know, what can I only do that nobody else can do? Nobody else can go speak and become a thought leader and do all this stuff. But I can't be making corrections to the P&Ls anymore.

Debbie:

[17:29] Someone else has got to learn this. But I would much rather learn that when I'm not in like a crisis state too, if I can do it proactively all the time. But the crisis state really highlights it because I'm like going, that's it. I got to figure this out. But that's what we do to encourage people. I would say one of the things as a leader that I have to be sensitive to is not everybody wants to move to the next level either.

Debbie:

[17:59] So if I have a staff member that likes being in the client room and is unwilling to give that up to empower volunteers or whatever to do, then we have a real honest discussion about where she believes God wants her to be. And if she chooses to stay at that lower level, then there is an understanding that I'm going to build above her to be able to build out the organization. And there's no problem with that. but I need her to think about that and to figure out where she believes God's calling her because some people are called to be directly in the client room and that's okay and so if not, she doesn't want to move up this, you know, move up and figure out a way to get out of her position, then we've just got to build around her and she's still valuable but it just changes our strategy on what we do and that's completely, you know, I personally am okay because I just don't come from a scarcity mentality. I just go, God's going to give us who we need and let's get people in the right spots on the bus and let's, let's go for it. You know, so.

David:

[19:02] Yeah. That's, that's a really good question. I was going to ask you, when do you know, when, when do you know, uh, people are ready to grow, but you asking those questions on a monthly or quarterly basis is a continual process. That's, that's different. Um, because yeah, to ask yourself what would happen if you weren't there? What happened is you as a manager weren't there or as a supervisor weren't there and you're empowering your people, each one of them, to have a growth mindset. And that's very valuable. And that's why we have cultural values and business values saying these are the things that we do because you're right. You can't make every decision. Right. But if these five values... Outline how you would make your decision, then you can say you can do whatever you want. Just have to meet these five values.

Debbie:

[19:55] Right. And you got good guardrails. And, you know, I think that's what they are.

David:

[19:58] The guardrails.

Debbie:

[19:59] Yeah. And I think the biggest challenge that we run into, though, is most of the time, all of our breakdowns are in the fact that communication gets screwed up and people assume things or make, you know, just make bad decisions off of communication. But you You know what, in a ministry in particular, but if you are pursuing God, Satan wants to get in there and tear apart whatever you're doing. And communication is the number one way to do it. So we have to fight for that too. And, you know, help the staff know how to maneuver through that and really, you know, talk about from a value, value the people in the organization over the issue that's arose, you know. So it's not unusual for me to call a staff person and say, don't leave, I'm coming. We're going to work through that because I value you. And usually it's just some assumption or some, you heard it differently. And we just have to fight hard for that to be able to stay unified in what we're trying to accomplish.

David:

[21:05] One more question. What's the worst? What's the worst? Maybe not the worst. But what's the worst

David:

[21:12] that could happen when you are empowering these people? Do they end up destroying things or do they make, if they make bad decisions, what happens?

Debbie:

[21:21] Oh, that's.

David:

[21:22] Or have they made bad decisions and the whole department falls apart?

Debbie:

[21:27] They have never made a bad decision. We make lots of them. But, you know, when we talk about like that next best step. Yep. I trust the heart of my people. Okay, and I know that their goal is to do the very best that they can do.

Debbie:

[21:44] And they're going to do their next best step. And I am going to cheer them on as they do that. And if that doesn't work out exactly right, or it's not as successful as it could be, or let's say it's really something bad and I get a donor call or whatever, I am going to take that hit as the leader.

Debbie:

[22:05] And then I'm probably going to turn around and go, I'd like to not take that hit again. So what adjustments do we need to make so that you don't do that? But I want us to, you know, if we're doing the next best step, let's, if we're going to fail, let's fail quickly and make the adjustments so that we continue to move forward, right? And if it's a safe environment to do that, then a lot of, that opens the door for a lot of creativity and a lot of personal investment by people to say, no, we want this to be successful. So we've never had, you know, anything totally fall apart, but we do have little hiccups that happen or like if you're planning a gala and we're way behind and I'm going, it shouldn't be this way next year. You know, we need to get a good SOP in place so that we're not trying to kill ourselves two weeks before, you know, that type of thing. So those are all, but those are all normal and those are all growth things. And like new people in the organization don't always understand everything. So I always tell them when they come in, I'm like, do not try and make radical changes in the organization. When you get here, I want you to figure out my chaos.

Debbie:

[23:17] And I want you to keep my chaos. I want you to keep my chaos working. And then I want you to make suggestions as to how we can take this to the next level. But don't come in trying to change everything when you don't really understand. Just ride the wave and let's figure it out then once you are familiar and let's, you know, I trust you that we're going to be able to find a space for you to, you know, really excel. But you got to really understand what you're walking into and how it works because, you know, you shut down my website or you shut down my phone system, you know, that makes it a little difficult to do business. So that's not going to work. Right. And so figure out why we do it the way we do it. And then let's take it to the next level.

David:

[23:59] Sure. I just wanted to ask that question because I think sometimes business owners are hesitant to give to empower people because they don't know what might happen. But like you said, I really believe that that whole trust factor that I trust you and that it's safe to make a mistake. I think those two together really make for a growing, thriving, creative business. Because if you empower people to do things and they do something and you bang over the head with a hammer, it kind of squelches the creativity. But if you say, hey, that's fine. Let's learn from it. Let's go on. That's good. And I just want to encourage other people that, yes, it's not going to be perfect. They won't do it exactly like you do. But you know what? Some people are going to do things better than you do. They will. A lot of people are going to do things better than you do. And you want that. You want that. Right. And so that's part of encouraging your people.

Debbie:

[24:56] Yes. And I think here's the other thing for me as a leader. If I get anxious when I am empowering people, then I probably have some internal work to do on me.

Debbie:

[25:10] Um, because God's probably, what, what's probably getting generated is some back history in me that's getting kind of lit up. And God wants me in this situation to still have joy and peace and to not be anxious. Right. So there's maybe some soul work that I need to do to be able to be the boss that I need to be able to be, to be able to empower the people, because I believe he's refining me in this process too. Right. He didn't give me nine children because I didn't have a lot of refining to do. He gave me them because I have a lot of refining, and they've taught me a lot, right? And so I think with our people, if I become very anxious, then I hold on tightly. And when I hold on tightly, then I will not give them the freedom that they

Debbie:

[25:55] need. So something's going on in me. And then the next thing is the communication piece, is to make sure that we clearly understand who's responsible, what they're doing. and there's a feedback loop to that too. And I can be a check and balance too. And that's good and okay.

Debbie:

[26:13] But, you know, when I start feeling a little anxious, I start looking at me. But then the other thing is I'll call the person and I'll go, let's talk. Just bring me up to date on what's going on. Because maybe I just don't, I think you're probably doing these things, but you haven't like gave me feedback. And so I don't know that it's happening. So now I'm assuming, and that's the breakdown of communication. So I try and keep that really open so that we can figure our way. But that's generally what's going on in me. And there's a lot of work in me that God wants to do to get me to where I can be the best boss that I can be for Him.

David:

[26:50] Very good. I've talked to another lady earlier in another podcast interview, and she talked about that with emotional intelligence, too, that sometimes, a lot of times when there's conflict, yeah, it's something that you haven't dealt with in the past. It's usually not the other person. Sometimes it could be. A lot of times it's you.

Debbie:

[27:09] Very much so. Most times it's me.

David:

[27:10] Yeah, Debbie, you said a lot of great things today. If you could challenge our audience with one thing with relation to business or life in general, what would it be from today?

Debbie:

[27:22] I would say, you know, we didn't really talk about my book, but the book is talking about how to live a focused, faithful, and fearless life. Okay. And it's all about the legacy that we leave. And so, you know, once my boys died, I wanted everything to be about eternity. And I'm going, I have chosen to be very intentional about building and living my legacy now so that I have a great one to leave, you know, and a lot of us could just go through life so quickly and just let it kind of pass us by and we end up with some kind of legacy. I want us to all be, you know, just focused and faithful and fearless to just run and do what our daddy God's called us to do because he's put us here to do great things. And so for me, live intentionally, live your legacy, and be a difference maker. And it'll make a difference now and for eternity. And that's, you know, that's what we do at Anchor Point. That's why I built it is so it would outlive me, right? And I'm like going, it can impact people later. And we can all do that. No matter the size of our business, no matter who we

Debbie:

[28:31] are as a person, our legacies are all different. But I just don't want us to miss it. I want us to be intentional because God wants to do great things with each and every one of us and the people that work for us. And so how can we be intentional about doing that?

David:

[28:47] Okay, very good. Debbie, thank you very much. Well, friends, it's all we have time for today. But your next steps is check out the show notes. We're going to put links to her site and to her book and you can get all that stuff. And yeah, it's all going to be there very clearly spelled out along with the outline of our talk today because she said a lot of good things today. And also, don't forget to sign up for the newsletter because it's a great way to keep in contact. So, friends, that's all for now. Trust you've been inspired to redeem your business, redeem your time, buy it back, and use it worthy of God's great name. Have a good day.