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What's the purpose or the benefit of concentrating on the experience,

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the sensation of contracting muscles in Pilates?

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That is the question we're going to explore today on Pilates Elephants.

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Welcome, Heath Lander. Hi, Raph.

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All right. So, you know, this is something that you call willful contraction.

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I kind of more think about it as just focusing on either consciously contracting

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or maybe it's about the concentrating on the experience of the muscle working.

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But really, I think there's something that's very integral to the way a lot

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of people teach Pilates,

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which is promoting and building awareness of which specific muscles are working in a movement.

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So being aware of the sensation of your glutes contracting or your abs contracting

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or your pelvic floor contracting or, you know, whichever particular muscle we're talking about.

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So, um, and that's not us because we don't really think that's a great use of time or energy,

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but I want to examine the case on both sides because a lot of people,

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a lot of people get a lot out of it and think it's really awesome.

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So why do they get a lot out of it and why do they think it's really awesome?

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Well, when I think back to 20-odd-plus years before,

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yeah, in a time before the Nokia, I, what was,

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one of the things I think that makes it valuable as an exchange for an instructor

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to a client is that, broadly speaking,

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people, humans, who aren't doing something

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with their body that makes them not do this tend to live above

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their shoulders so then when they go and see

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someone who can guide you through a

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movement that gives you a specific sensation of a

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muscle firing and they predicted it that's an

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incredibly powerful authority moment you know and and and also an awakening

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moment right so for clients who've just sort of moved their body and they don't

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haven't thought about maybe they're in pain and they come along and all of a

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sudden an instructor is able to cue them to a point and say now you're going

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to feel this and boom you do And you're like, holy crap, I haven't felt that

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muscle work like that before.

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You know, that's a very powerful sort of binding story.

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So that's kind of a, yeah, I mean, I would agree with that. I would frame it

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more as like it's a cool party trick.

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That if I put you on a reformer and set you up a certain way,

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I can make you feel your glutes or your abs or your whatever.

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And that is a cool party trick.

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And I guess it does, it is a demonstration that in, at some level,

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you know what the fuck you're doing as an instructor.

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If I say like, okay, I will now make your glutes work. Bam. Oh yeah.

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That's exactly what I'm feeling. So that it does establish authority, like you say.

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It's also an extension of that thing where as instructors, we're curious about

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what muscles are creating the movement.

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And so then it's like, and then if someone says, what, what,

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what, what should I be feeling now?

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What muscle should I be feeling now? It gives you an answer to that question.

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And I used to really enjoy knowing the answer to that. These days,

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if someone says, what muscles are working now? I go, a whole bunch of them. Just carry on.

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Well, I think there's underneath that question, what muscle should I be feeling now?

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I think that is kind of the crux of the question that I want to get at today,

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which is the notion, the assumption underneath that question is that one of

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the important goals of Pilates is that you have a certain somatic experience.

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So somatic means just internal, you know, perception within your own body.

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So, you know, well, I would ask, look, well, why does it matter that you feel

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something in particular?

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You know, why is it important that you have a bodily experience of feeling a

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certain thing, you know, like, and that really gets to like,

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okay, well, why are we here?

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You know, why are we in this room doing Pilates together, are we here to have

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an experience or are we here to improve our health and well-being?

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Because those things are not the same thing.

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They're not mutually exclusive, but they're also mutually inclusive. Right.

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So you can improve your health and well-being with or without having a bodily

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experience, and you can have a bodily experience with or without improving your health and well-being.

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However, I would say that to a large extent,

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the Venn diagrams don't overlap because a A lot of the time,

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the way it's taught to focus or become aware of certain muscles working actually

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decreases the amount of benefit you get in terms of health and well-being because

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it substantially reduces the load or range of motion or both.

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And I think of an example, and I used to do this, you used to do this,

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where if you know your anatomy and your biomechanics and your Pilates repertoire,

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you can arrange people's bodies in a certain position so that predictably they'll

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feel it in a certain body part.

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Like if you're doing like side-lying legs and straps and you know how to roll

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the top hip forwards and a few other, you know, keep the foot above hip height

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and whatever, you can predictably make someone feel it in their butt cheek, right?

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But in order to do that, you've got to substantially reduce the load and the

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range of motion of the movement and the load and the range of motion are what

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actually produce the health benefits.

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So yes you can you know it's possible

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to have a bodily experience and work

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hard through full range but more

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often than not i think in pursuit of that bodily experience we actually reduce

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the load and the range so i think there is a there to a certain extent there's

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a conflict there a lot of the time so you know why do we feel it's so important

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to have that bodily experience oh i felt a muscle working I've ever felt before.

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What's it for?

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Well, from so here's one example I can think of where I kind of,

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conflating the two things one was was like

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that's the long stretch shape right so the dish shape that

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we make in long stretch hold on

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i think you just lost three quarters of our audience because most of

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them probably do long stretches a perfect straight line from

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neutral line okay well go and look at your photos of joseph

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or go and look at gymnastics which is where he got the shape from and and you

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can keep teaching it in neutral if you want but uh i i when i started realizing

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that And after I heard Christopher Summers say fuck neutral and I started wondering

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what on God's earth he was talking about and started looking at gymnastic shapes

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and realized they were the shapes Joseph was making in his photos.

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And Christopher Summers being

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the US Men's Olympic gymnastics coach for a couple decades. coats. Yeah.

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And also when I started to try and hold my own body weight in gymnastic rings,

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I discovered that I was able to generate a lot more force against my body weight

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and gravity by just pushing,

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you know, like trying to push my shoulders as far forward as possible, which,

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amounted to protraction of my shoulders and flexion of my spine.

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In gymnastics, I call it compression or hollow body. Hollow body, yeah.

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And that is the classical 100 shape. So if you're not sure what we mean,

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Google Joseph Pilates 100 and make sure it's the black and white grainy photo

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and you'll notice that he's fully flexed and chin to chest and shoulders are

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protracted and turtle shell shaped and all of that. Same with his teaser position.

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Right. He only does two movements. Yeah.

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And one of them's a cat stretch. Yeah, one of them is a cat stretch, yeah.

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So when I learned from you about some of the nuances of serratus anterior And I realized, oh, wow.

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Okay, cool. So when I do scapular pushups, which is to protract and then unprotract

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or, you know, retract maybe multiple times, I thought, okay,

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I'm working serratus anterior.

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And I am. And if I couldn't do 30 reps, then I was probably,

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or 20 reps or 15, I was probably making it stronger.

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Um, but, and I could, if I really tried sort of feel sensation in and around

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my rib cage, if I did enough reps.

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Then I made what I now feel is an error of telling clients about the fact that,

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you know, if you do this and you feel this, now you're feeling your serratus anterior working.

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And now I can tell you all about serratus anterior if you want.

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None of that actually added to their ability to use their serratus anterior

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under load. Like what they needed to know was push as hard as you can against the rings.

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Don't let them fly out from underneath you and hold that for time.

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And you might find it easier if you copy this shape, if they weren't sort of

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working that out for themselves. You didn't need to explain the muscle.

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But it took me a while to realize that me explaining the muscle didn't help

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them find the muscle, didn't help them be better at using the muscle.

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And in fact, if anything, I was probably distracting them from just a simple

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outcome-focused cue that gave me more than just the one muscle,

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you know, give me a spinal shape or whatever else, which that's another conversation

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we've had about, you know, one cue to rule them all.

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Trying to speak to an individual muscle means you're not talking to the movement,

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you're not talking to the rest of the muscles.

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All right. So let's examine that, you know, idea that thinking about the muscle

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or becoming aware of the muscle activating improves your control,

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you know, is necessary to improve control and precision in the movement.

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And just a brief 30-second thought experiment, you know, completely different.

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Disproves that because if you think about many other

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movement disciplines where people achieve

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extremely high levels of precision and control in

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their movements i think about something like breakdancing or gymnastics

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or uh table tennis or or

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you know many other disciplines like

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soccer um you know people who if

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you think about elite athletes in a lot of these sports archery um

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you know darts you know people people who

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can do incredible card tricks you know like shuffle you

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know three packs of cards in one hand those those sorts of people people that

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can juggle you know seven flaming brands or and a chainsaw you know like people

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develop incredibly high levels of precision and control and you know Cirque

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du Soleil acrobats you know who can balance a one-handed handstand on top of

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a pile of eight chairs all standing on top of each other,

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or stand on a fitball on one leg whilst juggling or whatever.

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Just incredible feats of control and precision.

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And if you look at how these people learn and practice, those musicians,

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pianists, violinists, flautists, you look at how these people learn and practice,

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they never think about specific muscles.

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They learn the movement. You practice the card shuffling movement.

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You practice the piano scale. You practice standing on one leg on a ball.

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Like you don't think about which muscles you're doing. You just practice keeping

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the ball still or you practice moving the cards.

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And so that is like you can easily disprove the idea that you have to think

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about which muscles you're working in order to or become aware of which muscles

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working in order to achieve high level of skills. Just plainly not true.

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Yeah. So. And then. Go ahead. No, no, no.

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What were you? I was just, I was thinking through some of the conversations

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I've had with people in various contexts about that.

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And especially in terms of, uh, Pilates as a support for athletic training.

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So, you know, if you, and the, the idea that if you can, if you go to a Pilates

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session and you do tippy birds and you feel your glute working,

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like you've never felt it before, that that's going to have a spillover effect to your glute.

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And I quote, I've heard people say this, remembering to switch on when you're

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doing your sprints, basketball, whatever.

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And I mean, that's just a, that's an elephant that needs to be put to rest.

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You know, the idea that muscles have a memory.

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Well, in fact, there's actually been research specifically on glute activation exercises,

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exactly like you described, like teaching people to consciously switch on their

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glutes, do tippy birds and clamshells and whatnot, and then measuring how much

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their glutes fire when they do like loaded squats.

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And the answer is they don't fire any more or any less after weeks of glute activation drills.

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And I will put some links to research on that in the show notes.

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So glute activation drills do teach people to perceive the sensation of their

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glutes firing better, but they don't actually make the glutes fire better.

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So you learn to have an experience.

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And so if it's not necessary for developing skill, well, some people,

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and I know that there are people who feel this way.

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Feel that increased body awareness in and

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of itself is a useful goal like it's it there's

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an inherent it's an inherently good thing to have increased body awareness and i

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don't necessarily disagree with that although i think

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you and i heath would probably disagree with their

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definition of body awareness i think we there are two different ways that you

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can two different concepts that you can uh that we use that frame for body awareness

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for and one of those concepts is being consciously aware of sensations in your

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body at all times and really focusing on what's happening.

00:14:01.371 --> 00:14:05.291

And another one is actually really what I mean when I think of body awareness

00:14:05.291 --> 00:14:10.231

is actually not about being consciously aware of your body.

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It's about having an unconscious awareness of your body.

00:14:13.491 --> 00:14:20.411

So like a cat, for example, or a highly trained martial artist or dancer or gymnast,

00:14:20.591 --> 00:14:24.951

somebody who is, if surprised or perturbed off balance or whatever,

00:14:25.031 --> 00:14:33.571

they very, very quickly adapt and don't, you know, like they basically remain balanced and, you know.

00:14:34.431 --> 00:14:40.171

In control of their body in a wide range of situations, but they're not necessarily

00:14:40.171 --> 00:14:44.731

thinking about their body, but they move gracefully, they adapt to the environment

00:14:44.731 --> 00:14:47.171

easily and unconsciously, like a cat, you know.

00:14:47.391 --> 00:14:53.971

And so I think, you know, if I said like, okay, there's high-level martial art

00:14:53.971 --> 00:14:56.991

of Bruce Lee, you know, he had great body awareness, right?

00:14:57.171 --> 00:15:01.371

What I mean by that is it was hard to.

00:15:02.624 --> 00:15:05.864

Put him off balance. It was hard to trip him over.

00:15:06.004 --> 00:15:09.484

It was hard to catch him out of position. He was always in the right place.

00:15:09.584 --> 00:15:14.644

He had an awareness of the space and other people and gravity and where his own limbs were in space.

00:15:15.004 --> 00:15:18.424

But that awareness wasn't him consciously thinking about it.

00:15:18.544 --> 00:15:22.184

It was just part of the non-conscious computational processes happening inside

00:15:22.184 --> 00:15:26.324

his brain so that he was just always in the right position with his weight distributed

00:15:26.324 --> 00:15:30.084

properly on both feet, but he wasn't thinking about it all the time.

00:15:31.244 --> 00:15:35.184

Whereas I think a lot of people think about body awareness as being like actually

00:15:35.184 --> 00:15:39.524

thinking consciously about the sensations in your body at all times.

00:15:40.704 --> 00:15:46.064

And there's a kind of a, you'll probably be able to lay this out more concisely

00:15:46.064 --> 00:15:48.804

than I was. So I'll vomit it onto the table and you can clean up the mess.

00:15:49.024 --> 00:15:53.864

There's some kind of like paradoxical continuum there that, this goes back to

00:15:53.864 --> 00:15:57.644

what I was saying. So Pilates is so often a transformational experience for

00:15:57.644 --> 00:15:58.984

people, this has been my observation.

00:16:00.580 --> 00:16:04.780

This is not the only way, but for people who often through pain find their way

00:16:04.780 --> 00:16:07.560

to a Pilates session and they're doing a one-on-one, someone recommended it.

00:16:07.760 --> 00:16:12.300

And then the Pilates instructor, the facilitator, does something.

00:16:12.440 --> 00:16:16.240

It doesn't always have to be specific muscle stuff that brings that person into

00:16:16.240 --> 00:16:18.260

a new relationship with their body.

00:16:18.460 --> 00:16:24.660

And I would draw a kind of parallel with that person didn't have a relationship

00:16:24.660 --> 00:16:26.240

with their body at that level before.

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And you could get the same thing from someone maybe taking you through from

00:16:28.660 --> 00:16:32.960

a mindfulness meditation or a body scan or something, as long as it wasn't cerebral

00:16:32.960 --> 00:16:34.340

and it was actually about your body.

00:16:34.580 --> 00:16:37.820

And that can be transformational for people. And similarly, when you talk to

00:16:37.820 --> 00:16:42.120

people, when I've talked to people and explained the idea of discomfort being

00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:46.700

the same thing as pain before it's injury, you know, people just often haven't thought about that.

00:16:46.800 --> 00:16:50.140

And it's like you lift the veil of it and they go, oh, I'd never thought about

00:16:50.140 --> 00:16:52.160

that. Like, yeah, of course, the feelings come and go.

00:16:52.260 --> 00:16:55.140

And if I don't have to worry about it being an injury, then I don't really care.

00:16:55.140 --> 00:16:59.360

And it's like, it's, that's a, a, a moment of transformation and empowerment

00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:03.620

for them equally, you know, discovering, oh, like I like using my body.

00:17:03.720 --> 00:17:04.680

I don't really know I've never done.

00:17:04.880 --> 00:17:08.220

I mean, people doing feet and straps for the first time. I can't count how many

00:17:08.220 --> 00:17:09.220

times people have come out of

00:17:09.220 --> 00:17:11.840

feet and straps and said, I haven't had that much fun since I was a kid.

00:17:12.851 --> 00:17:14.391

And it's like, well, what have you been doing with yourself?

00:17:14.531 --> 00:17:16.291

And it's like, well, I've been working. And it's like, yeah, right.

00:17:16.891 --> 00:17:22.571

A lot of people don't play in their body like we're lucky enough to do as Pilates professionals.

00:17:22.971 --> 00:17:26.391

And it's like there's some sort of, so then it's like, okay,

00:17:26.851 --> 00:17:31.831

at the early stages of that, helping people know where their body is in space

00:17:31.831 --> 00:17:33.871

is actually something that you do sometimes have to do.

00:17:33.991 --> 00:17:37.591

Like we've all had the client where you say, what was that exercise on the caddy?

00:17:38.211 --> 00:17:41.331

Opposite, like stepping and punching, right hand, left foot, left hand, right foot.

00:17:41.331 --> 00:17:43.931

You know and the quiet joke in the back of your mind was are you going to

00:17:43.931 --> 00:17:46.831

be the one in 20 person who actually does contralateral when

00:17:46.831 --> 00:17:49.611

i say that you know because people it's a new skill and they're

00:17:49.611 --> 00:17:52.471

like wow i never done anything you know on the reformer there are heaps of examples

00:17:52.471 --> 00:17:55.391

like just getting your feet into the straps for the first time is a massive

00:17:55.391 --> 00:17:58.331

challenge for a lot of people or knee stretches is a classic one people push

00:17:58.331 --> 00:18:00.511

with their arms instead of their legs doesn't matter how many times you say

00:18:00.511 --> 00:18:03.171

push with your legs keep your arms still you know they'll still be like half

00:18:03.171 --> 00:18:08.311

the class pushing with their arms yeah and so what that's right so all of those examples.

00:18:09.691 --> 00:18:15.851

But um as they continue that you go from i don't know where my left i literally

00:18:15.851 --> 00:18:18.311

don't know where my left hand is while i'm doing something with my right foot,

00:18:19.332 --> 00:18:25.412

to a point where theoretically we help that person become more body aware as

00:18:25.412 --> 00:18:28.972

you laid it out and skillful that they do those things without thinking.

00:18:30.232 --> 00:18:34.752

So the continuum would be conscious awareness where you didn't have awareness

00:18:34.752 --> 00:18:37.492

to a point where you have unconscious awareness.

00:18:38.432 --> 00:18:42.492

And that should be what we facilitate rather than a kind of constantly drilling down and making you,

00:18:42.532 --> 00:18:45.492

let's focus on our neutral and lift your pelvic floor and

00:18:45.492 --> 00:18:48.392

now feel your powerhouse and relax your shoulder blades down before

00:18:48.392 --> 00:18:51.052

we move folks before we move you know like we should

00:18:51.052 --> 00:18:54.712

be moving towards a more aware yeah well

00:18:54.712 --> 00:18:57.932

i think i would say you i would say yes but

00:18:57.932 --> 00:19:01.772

i think yeah like you say we don't want to go into more and more and more and

00:19:01.772 --> 00:19:04.612

more conscious awareness as we become more skillful actually it's quite the

00:19:04.612 --> 00:19:10.632

opposite you want to become less and less aware because the the virtuoso guitarist

00:19:10.632 --> 00:19:14.932

isn't thinking about which muscles they're contracting in their finger as they're playing, you know,

00:19:15.612 --> 00:19:21.532

on stage, like you have to become less aware of the individual components of your body.

00:19:21.732 --> 00:19:24.472

That is part of the process and definition of skilled movement.

00:19:25.032 --> 00:19:27.692

And I would say even at the very beginner stage where it's like,

00:19:27.752 --> 00:19:30.172

okay, this is your left hand, this is your right foot stage.

00:19:30.592 --> 00:19:34.292

Like that is what they need to know. Okay. This hand goes here.

00:19:34.472 --> 00:19:36.832

This foot goes here. Push.

00:19:37.532 --> 00:19:40.372

You know, that's, that's the level of awareness that they need.

00:19:40.372 --> 00:19:45.592

Not like, okay, you need to squeeze your left quadratus femoris 12% more.

00:19:47.212 --> 00:19:53.252

It really is about the simplest instruction that will achieve the outcome,

00:19:53.472 --> 00:19:55.992

which would be your foot goes here, your hand goes here, now push the carriage out.

00:19:57.032 --> 00:20:02.192

That is what will facilitate them progressing their skill and actually developing

00:20:02.192 --> 00:20:06.592

the ability to, quote, know where their body is in space.

00:20:06.592 --> 00:20:10.292

Now, when I say no, I don't mean could write an essay on it,

00:20:10.412 --> 00:20:13.932

could explain it in, you know, which muscles and bones and joint alignment.

00:20:14.092 --> 00:20:16.852

What I mean is can do it, can do it.

00:20:16.992 --> 00:20:22.632

It's the difference between academic understanding and the ability to actually do the skill. So...

00:20:24.077 --> 00:20:27.197

You know, saying like, I need to activate my X, Y, Z muscle and my alignment

00:20:27.197 --> 00:20:30.677

should be A, B, C and whatever is not the same thing as being able to do the skill.

00:20:32.057 --> 00:20:34.957

And being able to do the skill doesn't mean you would necessarily know any of

00:20:34.957 --> 00:20:37.477

those words to explain it.

00:20:38.017 --> 00:20:41.437

Yeah. So they're just different. They're different things. And I think to a

00:20:41.437 --> 00:20:45.197

certain extent, they're not compatible. Yeah.

00:20:46.077 --> 00:20:51.937

One way that I find myself trying to explain that to people is knowing the details

00:20:51.937 --> 00:20:56.097

of the muscles that will create the movement is not the same thing as being able to do the movement.

00:20:58.718 --> 00:21:01.658

And so which one do you want to focus your attention on? Yeah, right.

00:21:02.258 --> 00:21:07.898

All right. And so what about the idea then that, you know, so what is,

00:21:08.138 --> 00:21:11.038

well, I just want to just, you know, keep on this idea of increased body awareness

00:21:11.038 --> 00:21:15.438

for a second because, you know, people do think of it as a good thing in and of itself.

00:21:15.758 --> 00:21:18.878

You know, like one of the benefits of Pilates is increased body awareness. People say that a lot.

00:21:19.638 --> 00:21:23.078

And I think, you know, like you say, if somebody kind of lives in their head

00:21:23.078 --> 00:21:26.258

all day, maybe they have a job that requires them to just be on a computer all

00:21:26.258 --> 00:21:29.778

day or think about stuff all day and they never exercise or stretch or breathe

00:21:29.778 --> 00:21:30.398

or do any of those things,

00:21:30.878 --> 00:21:35.578

it can be really valuable to do something like a body scan or progressive relaxation

00:21:35.578 --> 00:21:37.898

where you just lie down, you think about, you know, your feet,

00:21:38.018 --> 00:21:40.818

then you think about your ankles and you think about your calves and you think

00:21:40.818 --> 00:21:44.118

about your knees and you consciously sort of go through your body or you think

00:21:44.118 --> 00:21:44.998

about your breath, you know,

00:21:45.198 --> 00:21:49.018

all of these things can be really valuable to bring you into being,

00:21:49.238 --> 00:21:53.118

you know, like mentally present in the moment in your body, right?

00:21:53.218 --> 00:21:56.178

And that is a good thing in and of itself. and there's actually good evidence

00:21:56.178 --> 00:21:59.998

or a reasonable amount of evidence that I've seen that that actually does reduce

00:21:59.998 --> 00:22:05.718

anxiety and reduce pain and improve people's quality of life in those regards.

00:22:06.558 --> 00:22:13.478

But the thing is, you get those exact same benefits by going into a flow state, right?

00:22:13.578 --> 00:22:17.758

So you get out of thinking, because the definition of a flow state is you stop thinking.

00:22:18.998 --> 00:22:22.758

That's the definition. That's what it is. You're in the moment, truly in the moment.

00:22:23.898 --> 00:22:30.458

And a flow state can, one of the ways you can facilitate a flow state is extremely effortful exercise.

00:22:30.758 --> 00:22:35.758

Like you cannot sprint flat out and feel anxious at the same time.

00:22:37.337 --> 00:22:39.417

Or worry about what you're going to have for dinner at the same time,

00:22:39.477 --> 00:22:40.817

or what Jenny said at the office.

00:22:41.337 --> 00:22:45.637

And you cannot be doing your final rep of long stretch and quivering like a

00:22:45.637 --> 00:22:51.897

leaf on that final rep and not even sure you'll be able to pull the carriage back in.

00:22:52.257 --> 00:22:57.037

You can't be there and also just be having mental dialogue at the same time.

00:22:57.637 --> 00:23:01.617

The effort is too intense. You go into this flow state, which has those same

00:23:01.617 --> 00:23:05.317

benefits as doing a body scan or progressive muscle relaxation relaxation in

00:23:05.317 --> 00:23:09.857

that it just removes conscious thought and makes you inhabit your physical body.

00:23:10.137 --> 00:23:13.097

But when you're doing that final rep of long stretch and you're quivering like

00:23:13.097 --> 00:23:17.437

a leaf, you're also getting all of the health benefits of actually building

00:23:17.437 --> 00:23:23.097

strength and range of motion through your shoulders, and not to mention abs

00:23:23.097 --> 00:23:24.517

and all the other good things.

00:23:24.777 --> 00:23:30.497

And so that is where the Venn diagrams do overlap, where we get body awareness,

00:23:30.497 --> 00:23:31.877

if you want to call it that,

00:23:32.697 --> 00:23:38.277

being physically, I guess, mentally present in your body, as well as the health

00:23:38.277 --> 00:23:41.837

benefits of Pilates, which all accrue from that strength and range of motion work.

00:23:42.117 --> 00:23:50.237

Whereas just if we're doing a much lighter, smaller version of an exercise in

00:23:50.237 --> 00:23:53.657

order to consciously become aware of a certain muscle working,

00:23:53.877 --> 00:23:55.597

we lose all those health benefits.

00:23:58.497 --> 00:24:10.397

Let me so let me well said so what you just described there's a lot of assumptions in it for,

00:24:12.057 --> 00:24:17.977

anyone who's been trained in the education models out of which we shook ourselves

00:24:17.977 --> 00:24:21.957

out of and they're still out there and they're still the dominant models so.

00:24:25.419 --> 00:24:32.359

We all, I haven't yet met an instructor and I'm thinking of the workshops we

00:24:32.359 --> 00:24:35.419

run where I meet instructors who I haven't trained and haven't trained with

00:24:35.419 --> 00:24:38.319

URI and haven't trained in evidence based models.

00:24:39.139 --> 00:24:44.519

I haven't yet met anyone that doesn't want to and believe that Pilates helps

00:24:44.519 --> 00:24:46.479

them to make their clients stronger.

00:24:47.479 --> 00:24:52.559

And at the same time, there's a concern about, I want to make people strong.

00:24:52.679 --> 00:24:55.799

Well, I believe that what I'm doing is making people stronger with whatever

00:24:55.799 --> 00:24:58.779

level of understanding about strength versus endurance versus no

00:24:58.779 --> 00:25:01.579

minimal effect at all and i'm

00:25:01.579 --> 00:25:04.559

concerned about i have concerns about safety because i've

00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:07.899

been inculcated with safety culture and all of that and

00:25:07.899 --> 00:25:12.139

so then when when you then then and then like and this is where i remember being

00:25:12.139 --> 00:25:16.479

and i look back and i can understand i can like really feel for little baby

00:25:16.479 --> 00:25:23.139

heaths because i didn't so you could see that people had a command of the movement

00:25:23.139 --> 00:25:25.519

and you wanted to add challenge.

00:25:28.930 --> 00:25:30.470

But no one's taught you about the...

00:25:32.730 --> 00:25:34.290

I mean, and I'd been to the gym.

00:25:34.390 --> 00:25:38.230

I knew how to add load on a barbell in a bench press or a pin machine.

00:25:38.570 --> 00:25:41.290

But then you're doing these funky movements on reformers and Cadillacs where

00:25:41.290 --> 00:25:42.950

you're using springs and body weight.

00:25:43.130 --> 00:25:48.110

And it's arguably a bit more complicated to start thinking about how you add

00:25:48.110 --> 00:25:51.410

challenge because when you change the challenge, it often changes the balance

00:25:51.410 --> 00:25:55.150

or it changes the shape or, you know, changes the tension but not the actual

00:25:55.150 --> 00:25:56.430

load and the further out you are.

00:25:56.430 --> 00:26:00.050

And there's a lot of variables. and you want to, you want to add a challenge

00:26:00.050 --> 00:26:03.510

for your client, but you, God knows you want it to be appropriate because fuck,

00:26:03.510 --> 00:26:05.870

you don't want them to fall off the BOSU that they're standing on while they're

00:26:05.870 --> 00:26:08.410

doing their punches, or you just don't want them to fall off the reformer.

00:26:08.630 --> 00:26:11.670

You know, you know, it's, it's not, it's not invalid to be concerned about their safety.

00:26:13.910 --> 00:26:18.970

And you don't, so in, in the, in the vacuum of confidence to know,

00:26:19.090 --> 00:26:21.830

okay, if you can do 15 of them on one spring, I'm going to go to three, two springs.

00:26:22.070 --> 00:26:25.110

Or if you can do 15 of them on a half spring, I'm safely going to assume that

00:26:25.110 --> 00:26:27.970

you can do seven on two and a half springs.

00:26:29.110 --> 00:26:32.230

And so there's a few things in there, like what's this appropriate number of

00:26:32.230 --> 00:26:35.750

reps before you make it harder? How good does the movement need to look before you make it harder?

00:26:36.170 --> 00:26:39.110

And then the other thing that we're building into our programs,

00:26:39.230 --> 00:26:43.050

and I've found transformational when I explain it to people and forget how transformational

00:26:43.050 --> 00:26:45.810

it was for me, is that if you're doing a wobbly movement.

00:26:47.582 --> 00:26:50.822

Then you need the load to be moderate so you can get the reps in to find your balance.

00:26:51.362 --> 00:26:54.842

But if you're doing a stable movement that's good for force production and strength

00:26:54.842 --> 00:26:58.742

training, then you want to load up the load and you need to know a bit about

00:26:58.742 --> 00:27:01.902

how you read the reps, but you actually want their form to suck if you want to make them strong.

00:27:01.982 --> 00:27:07.862

There's lots of things to be confident with, which I look back and my education

00:27:07.862 --> 00:27:11.182

in Pilates didn't empower me with that.

00:27:11.342 --> 00:27:16.222

So then what the default is, find a load that they can do lots of,

00:27:16.302 --> 00:27:21.142

make sure they're not want to fall off the thing and then make it more complicated or more nuanced.

00:27:21.262 --> 00:27:26.042

And you can do that by making it unstable. And you can do that by adjusting

00:27:26.042 --> 00:27:28.062

the bone position so they feel a specific muscle.

00:27:28.182 --> 00:27:31.722

And both of those things give the client the experience of increased challenge,

00:27:32.462 --> 00:27:36.482

but not the output that we all agree we want, which is for our clients to be

00:27:36.482 --> 00:27:38.462

stronger and more flexible and more skillful.

00:27:39.482 --> 00:27:47.222

Well, I think in Pilates, we very frequently confuse or conflate adding complexity

00:27:47.222 --> 00:27:50.142

or adding instability with improving skill.

00:27:50.822 --> 00:27:56.022

And they can overlap. Like obviously to do something more complex requires more

00:27:56.022 --> 00:27:58.382

skill and to do something more simple. But you can absolutely...

00:27:59.673 --> 00:28:03.773

Progress skill in doing something simple. Think about a simple chord on a guitar

00:28:03.773 --> 00:28:05.753

played by a master versus played by a beginner.

00:28:05.993 --> 00:28:09.153

It's going to sound different when the master does it.

00:28:09.233 --> 00:28:10.253

Think about a simple punch in

00:28:10.253 --> 00:28:16.673

martial arts or a single note on a violin played by a master or a newbie.

00:28:17.473 --> 00:28:21.813

It's going to be different. And so you can deepen skill without adding bells and whistles.

00:28:21.913 --> 00:28:25.093

And you can do simple movements and become better and better at those movements

00:28:25.093 --> 00:28:30.953

more and more precise over, you know, weeks, months, and years without adding more instability.

00:28:30.953 --> 00:28:37.053

And I think we over-rely on instability, you know, to a very large degree in

00:28:37.053 --> 00:28:39.373

Pilates because we actually don't have those tools, like you said,

00:28:39.373 --> 00:28:43.553

of just actually progressing the other dimensions of the movement being just

00:28:43.553 --> 00:28:45.713

the strength and the range of motion.

00:28:47.493 --> 00:28:50.293

So, and I think that really, and I think that comes, you know,

00:28:50.293 --> 00:28:53.453

partly from just lacking the skills and lacking the knowledge to do that because

00:28:53.453 --> 00:28:54.413

that's just not taught in Pilates,

00:28:55.853 --> 00:28:59.353

education and partly it comes from what you said fear you

00:28:59.353 --> 00:29:02.653

know the safety culture the idea that you have to have

00:29:02.653 --> 00:29:05.693

control and stability whatever the fuck

00:29:05.693 --> 00:29:08.833

that is before you add load you

00:29:08.833 --> 00:29:11.673

know you have to quote earn your you know load and

00:29:11.673 --> 00:29:14.313

range of motion before you you know before you do

00:29:14.313 --> 00:29:17.113

that you have to show us that you can find the right muscles and keep the right alignment and

00:29:17.113 --> 00:29:19.933

be body aware and all that and i think that completely is back

00:29:19.933 --> 00:29:23.233

to front you start by loading

00:29:23.233 --> 00:29:26.653

them up in a really simple stable you

00:29:26.653 --> 00:29:30.453

know movement where it's very difficult to get it wrong and you

00:29:30.453 --> 00:29:33.213

just load them up and add range until they get there to the right

00:29:33.213 --> 00:29:37.773

zone of challenge and then you start refining you know then you start refining

00:29:37.773 --> 00:29:44.253

uh so you know that's exactly backwards um because actually the benefit well

00:29:44.253 --> 00:29:49.393

we actually you know we actually know from motor learning research that skill

00:29:49.393 --> 00:29:52.113

is specific to a large extent.

00:29:52.413 --> 00:30:00.293

And so the skill of doing, let's say, long stretch with your knees up on a very light spring is,

00:30:01.122 --> 00:30:05.102

is not the same and doing that at full range until the, you know,

00:30:05.222 --> 00:30:06.882

the carriage almost touches the pulleys.

00:30:07.802 --> 00:30:11.962

That skill is not the same skill as doing it on your knees through half range

00:30:11.962 --> 00:30:13.202

on one and a half springs.

00:30:13.462 --> 00:30:18.742

You know, there's an actual skill in doing the load itself and the range of

00:30:18.742 --> 00:30:20.862

motion itself are part of the skill.

00:30:21.042 --> 00:30:27.062

And so practicing it small and light doesn't automatically transfer to doing

00:30:27.062 --> 00:30:30.122

it large and heavy, you know?

00:30:30.442 --> 00:30:34.342

So that whole idea, I think, is mistaken.

00:30:34.782 --> 00:30:42.602

And the idea of stability is just such a nebulous concept that actually doesn't

00:30:42.602 --> 00:30:46.122

mean anything, and we don't have an agreed definition of stability.

00:30:46.302 --> 00:30:49.502

And it's one of those things that's like, when you think about it on the surface,

00:30:49.622 --> 00:30:51.302

it seems like, oh, yeah, keep it stable.

00:30:51.322 --> 00:30:54.682

That's totally obvious. It's like, okay, but specifically, what does that mean?

00:30:54.782 --> 00:30:58.502

Oh, it means keeping this body part still whilst moving the other body part,

00:30:58.522 --> 00:31:02.902

or it means keeping your scapula flat and flush on your rib cage,

00:31:02.942 --> 00:31:06.122

or it means keeping your hip joints aligned in a certain way.

00:31:06.182 --> 00:31:11.262

Okay, so, well, what's the difference between just keeping still and being stable?

00:31:11.662 --> 00:31:16.442

You know, all right, so just say it's about keeping your rib cage,

00:31:16.462 --> 00:31:19.122

you know, quote, connected to your pelvis.

00:31:19.462 --> 00:31:24.442

Well, one, what does that mean? two how do you measure it and three well how

00:31:24.442 --> 00:31:28.602

at what point does it be shift from being stable to being unstable right so

00:31:28.602 --> 00:31:33.122

if i move my ribs like one millimeter is is that still stable like what about

00:31:33.122 --> 00:31:36.102

half a millimeter what about 1.3 millimeters and it's like.

00:31:37.077 --> 00:31:39.297

And, and what happens between zero

00:31:39.297 --> 00:31:42.437

millimeters movement and one millimeter movement, like why is that bad?

00:31:42.657 --> 00:31:46.817

Right. So just say I did a long stretch with keeping my ribs perfectly,

00:31:47.077 --> 00:31:49.497

perfectly connected to my hips with zero movement.

00:31:49.777 --> 00:31:52.397

And then I did the same move with the same spring, same range of motion,

00:31:52.457 --> 00:31:55.817

but I moved my ribs two millimeters. It's like, okay, why is that a problem?

00:31:56.477 --> 00:31:59.637

Oh, well, it's going to cause wear and tear. Really? Well, what about cat stretch?

00:31:59.857 --> 00:32:03.117

I mean, I moved my ribs like, you know, eight inches, right?

00:32:03.237 --> 00:32:06.657

So is that going to like destroy my spine? if 2mm is a problem, like is,

00:32:08.857 --> 00:32:12.077

like 150mm a problem? You'd expect it to be a lot more of a problem,

00:32:12.177 --> 00:32:14.537

wouldn't you? Well, it's not a problem, so why is 2mm a problem?

00:32:15.817 --> 00:32:20.017

And so it's just like, the closer you examine, the more you put the magnifying

00:32:20.017 --> 00:32:22.817

glass onto this concept of stability, the less it actually means.

00:32:24.257 --> 00:32:29.137

It's a will-o'-the-wisp. You can't find it. It's a mirage. So the idea that

00:32:29.137 --> 00:32:32.817

you need to be stable before you add load just is a meaningless concept.

00:32:33.657 --> 00:32:36.197

Doesn't mean anything. changed my mind.

00:32:40.577 --> 00:32:44.077

I, I, I, I, while you were talking, there's something, I'm not going to change

00:32:44.077 --> 00:32:44.817

your mind because I agree with you.

00:32:45.377 --> 00:32:48.877

Um, um, something just, again, I'll just sort of, sort of,

00:32:52.617 --> 00:32:58.497

you, you said it and maybe I said it too, but what we see so often on the Instagrams, et cetera,

00:32:58.717 --> 00:33:04.277

and in, in, in studio culture is the use of making something wobblier or more

00:33:04.277 --> 00:33:10.317

complicated as the means of making an established movement more challenging.

00:33:10.557 --> 00:33:13.597

And it's not wrong. It's true that it makes it more challenging.

00:33:15.817 --> 00:33:22.557

And I think one of the things that's missing in that is, and I know I'm going

00:33:22.557 --> 00:33:24.077

to sound a bit like a broken record, but...

00:33:28.958 --> 00:33:34.418

Rather than thinking about how to make something more complicated for the client

00:33:34.418 --> 00:33:41.018

is train them to be so automatic and masterful in that given movement that,

00:33:41.018 --> 00:33:44.558

that then you can take the movement somewhere else.

00:33:44.718 --> 00:33:48.598

Like, and then it comes back to that idea of, and you're solving that problem.

00:33:48.738 --> 00:33:52.378

If you make it more complicated, you're taking it into a complex kind of wobbly, wobbly thing.

00:33:53.518 --> 00:33:57.878

What, what I've, what I've tried to do in my programming and I've found to be.

00:33:59.278 --> 00:34:03.458

You know i get it seems to work for me and for my clients and now for the courses

00:34:03.458 --> 00:34:10.138

and our students is progress the strength and the flexibility and let the skill

00:34:10.138 --> 00:34:13.498

kind of follow as you try and make bigger shapes that require more flexibility

00:34:13.498 --> 00:34:17.398

and more strength and as you try and increase the size,

00:34:18.318 --> 00:34:21.178

and and often thereby the load of the shape that you're making

00:34:21.178 --> 00:34:23.818

you've just got to keep the skill tracking you know it starts out a bit

00:34:23.818 --> 00:34:26.538

wobbly then you find it okay once you found it can you give me eight

00:34:26.538 --> 00:34:29.278

to ten good smooth reps you can okay great let's add

00:34:29.278 --> 00:34:32.058

a bit more load because as i add more load and i'm going to take that movement to

00:34:32.058 --> 00:34:34.858

a longer lever or i'm going to take the springs down so that we can do this that

00:34:34.858 --> 00:34:38.158

or the other so without getting bogged down in the specific

00:34:38.158 --> 00:34:41.358

progressions that that that

00:34:41.358 --> 00:34:45.078

moves your that gives you this when you start to think like that and program

00:34:45.078 --> 00:34:48.658

like that you you do make things harder for people once they've established

00:34:48.658 --> 00:34:53.098

that they can do it but you're doing it in a different direction you're pushing

00:34:53.098 --> 00:34:56.818

into load and flexibility which then of course assumes that you're comfortable

00:34:56.818 --> 00:34:59.918

and confident with reading the reps and like.

00:35:00.997 --> 00:35:04.577

You're getting enough reps that they've demonstrated their control of the movement,

00:35:04.777 --> 00:35:07.657

but also that their form dissipates soon enough that you know that they're getting stronger.

00:35:07.897 --> 00:35:11.517

Or if the form doesn't dissipate, great. Now I know you've got capacity to do

00:35:11.517 --> 00:35:14.037

a heavier version of this movement. Now how am I going to do that?

00:35:14.357 --> 00:35:16.657

Because it's more complicated than just adding a weight plate.

00:35:16.857 --> 00:35:21.057

And in defense of the difference is, you know, I think a lot of people,

00:35:21.117 --> 00:35:26.017

what a lot of people love about Pilates is that it is a different movement than they do at the gym.

00:35:26.157 --> 00:35:29.737

You make different shapes. And then I think it's, you know, and then,

00:35:29.997 --> 00:35:34.157

yeah, so the fertile ground for the instructor is how to mine that,

00:35:34.317 --> 00:35:37.677

but in a way that does continually make people stronger rather than just dealing

00:35:37.677 --> 00:35:39.977

with more and more complicated versions of the same thing.

00:35:39.977 --> 00:35:43.077

Right and i think what you said there is exactly right

00:35:43.077 --> 00:35:47.197

that the skill needs to you

00:35:47.197 --> 00:35:52.337

know sort of match roughly the the strength and and range of motion challenge

00:35:52.337 --> 00:35:56.357

and so you don't develop all the skill before you develop any strength you develop

00:35:56.357 --> 00:35:59.037

a bit of strength and a bit of skill a bit of range and then a bit more strength

00:35:59.037 --> 00:36:02.997

a bit more skill a bit more range and so you know so at the very beginner level

00:36:02.997 --> 00:36:06.937

when you're learning a movement you do need a base level of skill to actually do the movement.

00:36:07.057 --> 00:36:09.717

Like if you're doing knee stretches and you're pushing with your arms and your

00:36:09.717 --> 00:36:12.737

legs are not, you know, your legs are, your hips and knees are staying at 90

00:36:12.737 --> 00:36:14.537

degrees and just doing basically pushups on the bar.

00:36:14.657 --> 00:36:18.897

It's like you, you're not skillful enough to actually get the benefit of the movement, right?

00:36:18.957 --> 00:36:22.717

So you, you do need to have some level of skill, but I think the basic level

00:36:22.717 --> 00:36:25.457

is like, okay, keep arms still, move legs.

00:36:25.657 --> 00:36:29.777

Okay. If you're doing that, that's good enough at this point, right?

00:36:30.217 --> 00:36:33.177

We don't need to worry about the infinite, you know, details of

00:36:33.177 --> 00:36:36.397

your pelvic alignment or scapular positioning or

00:36:36.397 --> 00:36:39.417

whatever it's like okay that's fine but then as you get to

00:36:39.417 --> 00:36:43.097

a higher level of challenge and mastery with that well slight adjustments to

00:36:43.097 --> 00:36:47.977

the position of your torso hips etc will give you additional challenge like

00:36:47.977 --> 00:36:52.217

if you can really get into that compression or that hollow body shape for instance

00:36:52.217 --> 00:36:57.117

in a round back knee stretches you know emphasizing that shape even more like

00:36:57.117 --> 00:36:59.277

one more centimeter of posterior pelvic tilt,

00:37:00.727 --> 00:37:04.847

will give you more load in that movement, you know?

00:37:04.927 --> 00:37:08.387

So it works together, but at the basic level, when you're just trying to figure

00:37:08.387 --> 00:37:12.267

out where your legs are and where your arms are in space, it's like that level

00:37:12.267 --> 00:37:15.407

of refinement doesn't really add anything at that point and it's not necessarily,

00:37:15.467 --> 00:37:17.567

you know, what you just need is to like just do some movement

00:37:17.987 --> 00:37:22.367

with some load and, you know, get some tension through those muscles through a range of motion.

00:37:24.307 --> 00:37:29.327

So, all right, so turns out we haven't changed changed each other's minds on this.

00:37:30.847 --> 00:37:36.227

And that kind of notion of willful contraction of a muscle or,

00:37:37.727 --> 00:37:41.807

just conscious awareness of which muscles are working or being able to name

00:37:41.807 --> 00:37:46.087

which muscles are working is not really of great benefit.

00:37:46.427 --> 00:37:51.427

Well, although whatever benefits you get from it in terms of getting out of

00:37:51.427 --> 00:37:52.587

your head and into your body,

00:37:52.747 --> 00:37:56.407

so to speak, you can get those benefits equally by

00:37:56.407 --> 00:38:00.587

just working hard physically and when

00:38:00.587 --> 00:38:06.927

you work hard physically through full range you also get the massive freaking

00:38:06.927 --> 00:38:12.327

humongous array of benefits that come from that like longer life better mental

00:38:12.327 --> 00:38:17.007

health lower blood pressure all of those you know bazillion you know better

00:38:17.007 --> 00:38:19.267

function and better joint health, et cetera.

00:38:20.687 --> 00:38:27.067

So I think where we land is you don't need to cue people to think about their

00:38:27.067 --> 00:38:29.707

muscles, and it doesn't matter if they can feel it or not.

00:38:29.847 --> 00:38:32.807

And when they ask, where should I be feeling this, you just say in your body.

00:38:37.567 --> 00:38:39.527

That's always the right place to feel it, I find.

00:38:43.267 --> 00:38:51.107

To paraphrase Joseph Pilates. Yeah. All right. Good talking. Yeah. Thanks, Raph.