1 00:00:01,042 --> 00:00:05,005 From a theology standpoint, I think the challenge we we face is 2 00:00:05,005 --> 00:00:08,675 there's the writing in the text that's out there that these systems learn from. 3 00:00:08,967 --> 00:00:11,845 There's both a combination of really good theology, 4 00:00:11,845 --> 00:00:14,848 very solid exegesis, and very poor theology. 5 00:00:15,056 --> 00:00:19,644 And a system like ChatGPT doesn't have an opinion about what is right or wrong. 6 00:00:19,644 --> 00:00:22,063 And so it's going to learn from all of these. 7 00:00:22,063 --> 00:00:22,355 and, and. 8 00:00:22,355 --> 00:00:26,192 Maybe even in a very slight sense, begin to include those ideas 9 00:00:26,609 --> 00:00:27,777 in sermon preparation. 10 00:00:27,777 --> 00:00:28,319 Which. 11 00:00:28,319 --> 00:00:31,114 Is not what you want, but may come in in a nuanced way. 12 00:00:31,114 --> 00:00:33,074 And so. We just, 13 00:00:33,074 --> 00:00:35,869 we have to know where these, where our information comes from. 14 00:00:41,291 --> 00:00:44,169 Welcome to this episode with Anabaptist Perspectives. 15 00:00:44,169 --> 00:00:49,257 Joined by Ben Harris, to explore questions around AI and studying. 16 00:00:49,883 --> 00:00:52,260 Ben, would you want to just. 17 00:00:52,260 --> 00:00:55,263 Yeah, give us a brief introduction to yourself before we jump in. 18 00:00:56,222 --> 00:00:56,514 Sure. 19 00:00:56,514 --> 00:00:58,558 Good morning. Marlin. Good to be with you. so. 20 00:00:58,558 --> 00:00:59,559 My name is Ben Harris. 21 00:00:59,559 --> 00:01:03,021 I'm a professor at Sattler College up in Boston, Massachusetts. 22 00:01:03,396 --> 00:01:07,192 I run the business program up here, but my background goes through the world 23 00:01:07,192 --> 00:01:10,195 of engineering and artificial intelligence and machine learning. 24 00:01:10,195 --> 00:01:12,989 so I've spent. 25 00:01:12,989 --> 00:01:16,493 More than a decade in the tech sector, before jumping into academia. 26 00:01:16,534 --> 00:01:19,287 So now I'm a teacher full time. But. 27 00:01:19,287 --> 00:01:22,624 I do my best to keep fingers in the, the technical world. 28 00:01:22,624 --> 00:01:25,502 Things that are developing, especially with AI turning out the way it is. 29 00:01:26,669 --> 00:01:27,045 Yeah. 30 00:01:27,045 --> 00:01:28,671 And we may get a chance to talk about 31 00:01:28,671 --> 00:01:32,133 some of the technical stuff, but we're actually focusing a little more 32 00:01:32,133 --> 00:01:36,304 on the teacher side or study side of things for this episode. 33 00:01:37,013 --> 00:01:39,974 so maybe to jump into this issue with, 34 00:01:39,974 --> 00:01:42,685 you know, thinking about AI and studying. 35 00:01:42,685 --> 00:01:44,104 imagine a scenario. 36 00:01:44,104 --> 00:01:47,607 I think I heard you bring it up in another podcast, but you've got, 37 00:01:48,650 --> 00:01:50,693 go to church Sunday morning. 38 00:01:50,693 --> 00:01:53,154 Preacher seems to have a smooth sermon. 39 00:01:53,154 --> 00:01:54,739 Points are good. 40 00:01:54,739 --> 00:01:57,742 You know, he's got some cultural background. 41 00:01:57,784 --> 00:02:00,787 He can even talk about a few original language words. 42 00:02:01,913 --> 00:02:03,581 And then you'll learn. 43 00:02:03,581 --> 00:02:07,043 Oh, turns out all the key points came from asking 44 00:02:07,043 --> 00:02:11,339 copilot or ChatGPT or somebody like that. 45 00:02:11,339 --> 00:02:13,424 to generate an outline. 46 00:02:13,424 --> 00:02:14,676 what's wrong with this scenario? 47 00:02:14,676 --> 00:02:16,219 Or why does something feel off 48 00:02:17,512 --> 00:02:20,306 in a scenario like that? 49 00:02:20,306 --> 00:02:22,433 So in a in a statement or two, I'd say it's 50 00:02:22,433 --> 00:02:25,895 because we have gaps in our understanding of where that information comes from. 51 00:02:26,062 --> 00:02:26,771 We have to think about 52 00:02:26,771 --> 00:02:30,567 how these these tools, as new as they are, how they're how they're built, 53 00:02:30,567 --> 00:02:33,611 how they learn effectively, how they're what they're trained on. 54 00:02:34,070 --> 00:02:38,199 I was listening to, just a podcast the other day in Tech World, and, 55 00:02:38,575 --> 00:02:42,579 the podcast host noticed his reputation in the world of, 56 00:02:42,996 --> 00:02:45,665 artificial intelligence was not very good. 57 00:02:45,665 --> 00:02:49,169 And so he set out to repair it, and it was able to within a day or two, 58 00:02:49,460 --> 00:02:52,463 change how a systems like ChatGPT or others. 59 00:02:52,672 --> 00:02:54,257 Thought of him. 60 00:02:54,257 --> 00:02:55,550 and I said, oh, well, that's good for him. 61 00:02:55,550 --> 00:02:57,051 But if our. 62 00:02:57,051 --> 00:03:00,638 If our hope in something like sermon preparation or study, 63 00:03:01,389 --> 00:03:03,641 relies on, 64 00:03:03,641 --> 00:03:08,271 on precision exegesis and illumination of the scriptures, and we're missing 65 00:03:08,938 --> 00:03:11,733 we're missing the layers in which we're getting our information 66 00:03:11,733 --> 00:03:15,403 to present to a congregation that I think that's where we start to feel. 67 00:03:15,403 --> 00:03:17,238 I'm not so sure about this. 68 00:03:17,238 --> 00:03:20,158 Because it, We don't get to see all the intermediate steps. 69 00:03:20,158 --> 00:03:23,161 We don't know how ChatGPT develops. 70 00:03:23,369 --> 00:03:24,454 it's it's outputs. 71 00:03:24,454 --> 00:03:26,998 You can get wildly different outputs with very slight changes 72 00:03:26,998 --> 00:03:29,292 in, in the prompts of the questions that you ask. 73 00:03:29,292 --> 00:03:31,336 And so, there's a 74 00:03:32,420 --> 00:03:32,795 I don't want 75 00:03:32,795 --> 00:03:35,798 to over, I don't want to use the term black box glibly. 76 00:03:35,798 --> 00:03:39,093 But it, There's definitely black box behavior going on here. 77 00:03:39,093 --> 00:03:42,430 So it leads to just like, it should lead us to questions, to curiosity. 78 00:03:43,514 --> 00:03:47,518 You don't know what's going on inside the black box where it's coming from. 79 00:03:48,061 --> 00:03:49,437 So how did he change his reputation? 80 00:03:49,437 --> 00:03:52,357 Just update his own website and put new language on there 81 00:03:52,357 --> 00:03:55,985 about himself that ChatGPT picked up, or what? 82 00:03:56,903 --> 00:03:58,154 You hit it right on the head. 83 00:03:58,154 --> 00:03:59,280 That's exactly what he did. 84 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:03,201 He went in the background of his website, and, he had spoken with some 85 00:04:03,201 --> 00:04:05,828 AI researchers and said, how can I improve this? 86 00:04:05,828 --> 00:04:07,956 And they gave him these little blips of code 87 00:04:07,956 --> 00:04:09,874 that he inserted into the back of his website 88 00:04:09,874 --> 00:04:13,628 that the the engines would then pick up on and change his perspective. 89 00:04:14,963 --> 00:04:15,380 From a, 90 00:04:15,380 --> 00:04:19,175 from a theology standpoint, I think the challenge we we face is 91 00:04:19,175 --> 00:04:22,845 there's the writing in the text that's out there that these systems learn from. 92 00:04:23,137 --> 00:04:26,015 There's both a combination of really good theology, 93 00:04:26,015 --> 00:04:29,018 very solid exegesis, and very poor theology. 94 00:04:29,227 --> 00:04:33,815 And a system like ChatGPT doesn't have an opinion about what is right or wrong. 95 00:04:33,815 --> 00:04:36,818 And so it's going to learn from all of these. 96 00:04:36,818 --> 00:04:37,360 and, and. 97 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:41,197 Maybe even in a very slight sense, begin to include those ideas 98 00:04:41,614 --> 00:04:42,782 in sermon preparation. 99 00:04:42,782 --> 00:04:43,324 Which. 100 00:04:43,324 --> 00:04:46,119 Is not what you want, but may come in in a nuanced way. 101 00:04:46,119 --> 00:04:48,079 And so. We just we we. 102 00:04:48,079 --> 00:04:51,082 Have to know where these where information comes from. 103 00:04:52,083 --> 00:04:52,333 Yeah. 104 00:04:52,333 --> 00:04:54,877 I mean, that reminds me some of the stuff I was playing with. Just, 105 00:04:56,004 --> 00:04:59,007 you know, asking one of these engines about, 106 00:04:59,382 --> 00:05:03,344 another organization, where I work, and it just 107 00:05:05,179 --> 00:05:07,807 it picked up, you know, the stuff we had in our website. 108 00:05:07,807 --> 00:05:10,810 Stuff on our statement. Fed it back to us. 109 00:05:10,810 --> 00:05:13,813 And there wasn't a lot of other information out there they could pick up, 110 00:05:14,063 --> 00:05:16,482 as a search engine. 111 00:05:16,482 --> 00:05:18,192 and then, 112 00:05:18,192 --> 00:05:21,946 you know, that organization is connected to, to Christian missions. 113 00:05:21,946 --> 00:05:24,949 And so I start just asking it questions and so on. 114 00:05:25,283 --> 00:05:28,244 And yeah, it starts picking up the stuff that. 115 00:05:29,537 --> 00:05:30,913 You know, 116 00:05:30,913 --> 00:05:35,209 kind of the missiology circles that we might be familiar with starts 117 00:05:35,209 --> 00:05:38,212 picking up that lingo and spitting it back, even though it doesn't have 118 00:05:39,464 --> 00:05:41,841 obviously, it doesn't have any of those, 119 00:05:41,841 --> 00:05:44,844 convictions. 120 00:05:44,844 --> 00:05:46,137 It just brings us to another. 121 00:05:46,137 --> 00:05:46,929 Another. 122 00:05:46,929 --> 00:05:49,849 I guess limitation of all this is that. You know, any. 123 00:05:51,392 --> 00:05:52,310 Any of these systems 124 00:05:52,310 --> 00:05:55,313 are limited by what we're calling the indexed web. 125 00:05:55,355 --> 00:05:57,815 essentially anything a search engine can access. 126 00:05:57,815 --> 00:06:02,737 So it has to be indexed for Google, but Google can at any time de-index something. 127 00:06:03,446 --> 00:06:05,281 So something won't show up in its search results. 128 00:06:05,281 --> 00:06:06,240 And they do that all the time. 129 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:09,327 They do it with Offensive or hate or violent speech. 130 00:06:09,744 --> 00:06:12,497 They don't want it to show up in their search results. 131 00:06:12,497 --> 00:06:15,124 So, you know, any company is able to do this. 132 00:06:15,124 --> 00:06:18,419 Anything that is an arbiter of web traffic can exclude things, 133 00:06:18,669 --> 00:06:21,756 and then those things will no longer show up in an LLM’s learning. 134 00:06:22,507 --> 00:06:23,091 archetype. 135 00:06:23,091 --> 00:06:26,052 It just won't learn anything from it. So. 136 00:06:26,052 --> 00:06:27,595 You know, it's. Not that. 137 00:06:27,595 --> 00:06:30,598 We treat these LLMs as compendiums of truth. 138 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:32,058 And they are far from it, right? 139 00:06:32,058 --> 00:06:34,060 They they can only get what they find. 140 00:06:36,145 --> 00:06:38,189 So, given that 141 00:06:38,189 --> 00:06:42,360 and just to push into the sermon thing a little bit, is there a proper place 142 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:45,363 for using one of these large language models? 143 00:06:47,782 --> 00:06:49,409 In that context, 144 00:06:49,409 --> 00:06:52,412 sermon or devotional at church or anything like that? 145 00:06:53,579 --> 00:06:57,083 I’d say, there is there, we, I'm. 146 00:06:57,083 --> 00:06:59,085 Comfortable using it for really what it's good. 147 00:06:59,085 --> 00:07:00,294 For, right? 148 00:07:00,294 --> 00:07:04,841 These LMS take a huge amount of text, and they they're trained to develop 149 00:07:05,883 --> 00:07:08,553 writing styles that are effective and clear and succinct. 150 00:07:08,553 --> 00:07:09,387 And so. 151 00:07:09,387 --> 00:07:11,013 You know, if, if I've sort. 152 00:07:11,013 --> 00:07:14,851 Of transcribed a good bit of a sermon down and I'd like ChatGPT to help me. 153 00:07:15,059 --> 00:07:15,309 Like. 154 00:07:15,309 --> 00:07:18,980 Clean it up a bit, ask any, any questions of me about the sermon. 155 00:07:19,730 --> 00:07:20,189 it can. 156 00:07:20,189 --> 00:07:22,150 ChatGPT can play the role of a congregant. 157 00:07:22,150 --> 00:07:23,985 Who might have. Questions. 158 00:07:23,985 --> 00:07:25,278 and that's the end. 159 00:07:25,278 --> 00:07:28,281 But then it's my responsibility to ensure that the. 160 00:07:28,364 --> 00:07:30,408 The sermon and, and the. 161 00:07:30,408 --> 00:07:32,493 Information that gets preached is still accurate. 162 00:07:32,493 --> 00:07:36,080 So I've not asked ChatGPT to have a theological opinion or view. 163 00:07:36,330 --> 00:07:39,584 I've asked it to simulate and test me as a, as a teacher. 164 00:07:39,584 --> 00:07:41,627 And I think that's a. Good, a good use of it. 165 00:07:41,627 --> 00:07:43,087 That doesn't. 166 00:07:43,087 --> 00:07:45,256 That doesn't ring foul of using something. 167 00:07:45,256 --> 00:07:45,882 Inappropriately. 168 00:07:46,966 --> 00:07:48,050 It's your way of putting it 169 00:07:48,050 --> 00:07:51,053 in its place as a tool. 170 00:07:51,971 --> 00:07:53,514 Which was my final question. 171 00:07:53,514 --> 00:07:57,643 We will move on from sermons to lots of other areas of life here in a bit. But, 172 00:07:59,437 --> 00:08:01,314 you know, I remember 173 00:08:01,314 --> 00:08:03,566 especially when I was young, 174 00:08:03,566 --> 00:08:06,152 somebody would have, a devotional or something. 175 00:08:06,152 --> 00:08:09,155 It'd be a topic 176 00:08:09,489 --> 00:08:12,450 and they'd say, this, this topic or this word is talked about, 177 00:08:12,492 --> 00:08:15,495 you know, this place, and they'd list through 178 00:08:15,995 --> 00:08:18,998 five places in the Scripture or ten or whatever. 179 00:08:20,500 --> 00:08:23,044 And I remember, 180 00:08:23,044 --> 00:08:25,546 I don't know if I asked my dad how people get this or what, 181 00:08:25,546 --> 00:08:26,589 but very young, I remember him 182 00:08:26,589 --> 00:08:29,634 saying, well, they used a concordance, and that's how they found the list. 183 00:08:30,635 --> 00:08:33,638 Obviously we got more powerful tools than the Strong's Concordance, 184 00:08:33,638 --> 00:08:36,974 which was a big paper book, that somebody pulled out for prep. 185 00:08:39,060 --> 00:08:40,728 but how different is this? 186 00:08:40,728 --> 00:08:44,023 Is it different in principle, or is it just we're dealing 187 00:08:44,023 --> 00:08:48,027 with a more sophisticated tool or less sophisticated tool as it may be. 188 00:08:49,695 --> 00:08:53,115 I’d say something like Strongs, And I have an affection for Strong's Concordance. 189 00:08:53,115 --> 00:08:55,243 Because I have two of them on my shelf in my office, at. 190 00:08:55,243 --> 00:08:58,621 My home, and, but they, you know, from. 191 00:08:58,621 --> 00:09:02,875 From an LLM perspective, the the data that's contained in something like 192 00:09:02,875 --> 00:09:07,171 a concordance is just is one data point that gets added and trained into. 193 00:09:07,171 --> 00:09:08,005 The model. 194 00:09:08,005 --> 00:09:09,298 So we use it as a, you. 195 00:09:09,298 --> 00:09:11,384 Know, our. In our linear thinking processes. 196 00:09:11,384 --> 00:09:15,596 We use it to sort of trace a word through Scripture and find meaning and nuance. 197 00:09:17,014 --> 00:09:19,225 an LLM Will take it very. 198 00:09:19,225 --> 00:09:20,226 Differently. 199 00:09:20,226 --> 00:09:20,393 Right. 200 00:09:20,393 --> 00:09:23,312 It'll, it'll in input that information. 201 00:09:23,312 --> 00:09:26,857 and it, it won't it can't. 202 00:09:26,857 --> 00:09:29,277 It doesn't know the intent of the reader. Right. 203 00:09:29,277 --> 00:09:32,405 So it an LLM doesn't, you know, if you're looking for the word faith 204 00:09:32,530 --> 00:09:36,659 throughout the scriptures, an LLM can't, can't intuit exactly 205 00:09:36,659 --> 00:09:39,829 where you're going, the connections that the Holy Spirit's illuminating in you. 206 00:09:40,121 --> 00:09:41,789 It'll just give you a sort of a 207 00:09:42,790 --> 00:09:43,416 I don't want to say 208 00:09:43,416 --> 00:09:46,627 word vomit, but it'll just it'll explode data 209 00:09:46,627 --> 00:09:49,797 in front of you without making connections because it's not smart enough. 210 00:09:49,839 --> 00:09:52,842 Right. It it is trained on what it knows. 211 00:09:52,883 --> 00:09:53,259 and it'll. 212 00:09:53,259 --> 00:09:54,468 Give you what it thinks is correct. 213 00:09:54,468 --> 00:09:56,262 But it's a probabilistic guess. 214 00:09:56,262 --> 00:09:56,929 That's the. 215 00:09:56,929 --> 00:09:58,472 Best these things can do. 216 00:09:58,472 --> 00:10:00,391 Is they they take a. 217 00:10:00,391 --> 00:10:03,102 They say, what's the most likely correct answer? 218 00:10:03,102 --> 00:10:03,477 You just give. 219 00:10:03,477 --> 00:10:06,480 That and then it and then it moves on. 220 00:10:07,315 --> 00:10:08,566 I don't know, word vomit. 221 00:10:08,566 --> 00:10:10,359 Doesn't sound like too bad of a term. 222 00:10:10,359 --> 00:10:13,362 Sometimes I can resonate with that, 223 00:10:14,405 --> 00:10:17,241 depending what the examples are. 224 00:10:17,241 --> 00:10:18,075 Yeah. Okay. 225 00:10:18,075 --> 00:10:21,329 Let's think about more broadly, you know, this question 226 00:10:21,329 --> 00:10:24,332 of, of study and 227 00:10:24,915 --> 00:10:26,584 how do we value study there? 228 00:10:26,584 --> 00:10:29,587 We talked about, you know, sermons or devotionals. 229 00:10:30,087 --> 00:10:31,464 obviously you're an educator. 230 00:10:31,464 --> 00:10:33,507 We'll get to a classroom context. 231 00:10:33,507 --> 00:10:37,428 but maybe first just yeah, help us think about that more broadly. 232 00:10:38,179 --> 00:10:39,764 Going to work. Family, 233 00:10:42,350 --> 00:10:43,726 being the congregant, 234 00:10:43,726 --> 00:10:46,729 listening to the sermon, whatever. 235 00:10:47,063 --> 00:10:49,398 yeah. Realm of study. 236 00:10:49,398 --> 00:10:51,776 So I think that. AI has really. 237 00:10:51,776 --> 00:10:52,943 There's a temptation here. 238 00:10:52,943 --> 00:10:56,030 In that our, Artificial 239 00:10:56,030 --> 00:10:59,033 intelligence systems, way back in their genesis, 240 00:10:59,492 --> 00:11:03,913 were constructed to simulate how the human brain actually works and functions. 241 00:11:03,913 --> 00:11:07,208 What we know about the networks that that our minds are created of. 242 00:11:07,792 --> 00:11:12,922 And the temptation, I think I would I would phrase it this way, is 243 00:11:12,922 --> 00:11:16,967 to outsource the responsibility to train and to think correctly. 244 00:11:17,426 --> 00:11:17,802 Right? 245 00:11:17,802 --> 00:11:18,594 Because when we're 246 00:11:18,594 --> 00:11:21,597 when we're studying, when we go in and we do the difficult labor, 247 00:11:21,722 --> 00:11:24,266 that's what study is. It should be laborious. 248 00:11:24,266 --> 00:11:27,269 If you're finding something challenging, you're actually probably learning. 249 00:11:27,853 --> 00:11:30,022 and that's a good thing. We should be comfortable with that. 250 00:11:30,022 --> 00:11:32,900 But what it's doing is it's you're it's training connections in your. 251 00:11:32,900 --> 00:11:36,237 Brain to more. Easily allow. 252 00:11:37,321 --> 00:11:37,655 Literal. 253 00:11:37,655 --> 00:11:40,324 Electricity to flow between synapses in the mind. 254 00:11:40,324 --> 00:11:43,703 And so that's a, that is a physical analog 255 00:11:43,703 --> 00:11:47,164 to exactly what ChatGPT does in the background of ChatGPT. 256 00:11:47,289 --> 00:11:51,460 The architecture has a, a network construction, and it's training itself 257 00:11:51,460 --> 00:11:54,463 to, to discern right from wrong, just like your brain would. 258 00:11:54,463 --> 00:11:58,843 So I think we would we would never want to educate or instruct 259 00:11:58,843 --> 00:12:02,138 our children to just outsource 260 00:12:02,138 --> 00:12:05,683 the responsibility to think correctly and clearly to something else. 261 00:12:05,683 --> 00:12:07,601 We'd never want to give that away. 262 00:12:07,601 --> 00:12:08,227 And but the. 263 00:12:08,227 --> 00:12:10,938 Temptation for us as adults is to say, well, 264 00:12:10,938 --> 00:12:13,524 you know, because the the study is difficult. 265 00:12:13,524 --> 00:12:14,650 Right? I want to I want to. 266 00:12:14,650 --> 00:12:17,903 I'll just have ChatGPT do it and it probably starts very small. 267 00:12:17,903 --> 00:12:20,573 Right. It starts in little examples. 268 00:12:20,573 --> 00:12:21,824 but we. 269 00:12:21,824 --> 00:12:25,494 I think our charge as Christians is to be on guard against doing this right. 270 00:12:25,494 --> 00:12:27,455 Because when it, you know, when our when our witness 271 00:12:27,455 --> 00:12:30,458 is called to the test in evangelism or another context, 272 00:12:30,541 --> 00:12:33,544 we may not have ChatGPT there to lean on as a crutch, right? 273 00:12:33,544 --> 00:12:36,547 Our, our. Actual trained mind is now. 274 00:12:36,922 --> 00:12:38,132 You know, on on test. 275 00:12:38,132 --> 00:12:41,093 And how are we going to to do with what's in front of us? 276 00:12:43,345 --> 00:12:43,512 Yeah. 277 00:12:43,512 --> 00:12:46,515 And I like how you highlighted that. There. 278 00:12:46,557 --> 00:12:49,560 You know, if we’re educating our fourth graders. 279 00:12:49,560 --> 00:12:52,730 And we don't teach them how to work through 280 00:12:53,731 --> 00:12:57,526 the math problems or how to understand things in mathematics. 281 00:12:57,526 --> 00:13:00,529 And we say, hey, just look up the answer, 282 00:13:02,072 --> 00:13:02,406 okay? 283 00:13:02,406 --> 00:13:05,326 We know there's a problem there, right? 284 00:13:05,326 --> 00:13:08,162 But I hear you saying, well, for adults it's more of a temptation 285 00:13:08,162 --> 00:13:11,791 to think we can skip the study because we got that in 286 00:13:12,708 --> 00:13:17,338 in fourth grade or we did that in high school 287 00:13:17,338 --> 00:13:20,841 or college or Bible school or whatever, and kind of coast. 288 00:13:22,259 --> 00:13:25,596 But I think as the years go by, we're, our responsibility is to. 289 00:13:25,846 --> 00:13:27,389 You know. 290 00:13:27,389 --> 00:13:31,936 I think the church needs clear minds and for our entire lives. 291 00:13:32,061 --> 00:13:32,269 Right? 292 00:13:32,269 --> 00:13:36,982 So, you know, as these things grow and become more and more accessible, 293 00:13:37,942 --> 00:13:41,153 I would I would exhort all to not don't give that away. 294 00:13:41,153 --> 00:13:44,365 That's a precious thing that the Lord has given you to train and to build in you. 295 00:13:44,740 --> 00:13:47,743 And don't put. It in the hands of a company 296 00:13:47,785 --> 00:13:49,411 that doesn't have your best interest in mind. 297 00:13:49,411 --> 00:13:51,580 It doesn't have the kingdom interest in mind. Right? 298 00:13:51,580 --> 00:13:52,915 I think that's a grave error. 299 00:13:52,915 --> 00:13:55,459 That we would make. 300 00:13:55,459 --> 00:13:55,793 yeah. 301 00:13:55,793 --> 00:13:58,921 I mean, I really like your point there about it just shaping us. 302 00:13:59,129 --> 00:14:02,383 You know, we're doing the doing the mental work on it, 303 00:14:02,550 --> 00:14:06,178 and if we get to understanding, it's actually 304 00:14:06,804 --> 00:14:09,807 shaping our mind, shaping our brain as well. 305 00:14:10,474 --> 00:14:13,227 in the development. 306 00:14:13,227 --> 00:14:14,228 So, yeah. 307 00:14:14,228 --> 00:14:17,231 How do you approach it in the classroom as I'm thinking about it? 308 00:14:17,356 --> 00:14:19,358 I think from a couple angles. 309 00:14:19,358 --> 00:14:20,901 One is everybody's worried about, 310 00:14:22,069 --> 00:14:23,571 you know, how do we test people now? 311 00:14:23,571 --> 00:14:25,781 How do we deal with cheating? 312 00:14:25,781 --> 00:14:28,284 How do we make sure they actually are doing the work with the material? 313 00:14:28,284 --> 00:14:31,662 If the things we used to use, like a well-written paper, 314 00:14:32,913 --> 00:14:35,124 can be so easily faked or whatever. 315 00:14:35,124 --> 00:14:38,085 that's one angle. 316 00:14:38,085 --> 00:14:39,962 yeah, let's start there. 317 00:14:39,962 --> 00:14:42,965 Assessment or getting students to do the work or whatever. 318 00:14:44,133 --> 00:14:47,803 the classroom is is certainly that first line of, first 319 00:14:47,803 --> 00:14:51,724 line of combat that you run into with, you know, AI versus classical learning. 320 00:14:51,724 --> 00:14:54,476 And so. 321 00:14:54,476 --> 00:14:57,980 I've heard a number of, Approaches to this. 322 00:14:57,980 --> 00:15:00,190 The, you know, they start within, you know. 323 00:15:00,190 --> 00:15:02,776 We can't get. Away from the technology in the classroom that's coming. 324 00:15:02,776 --> 00:15:06,906 And so most colleges, including Statler, where I teach, uses a learning management 325 00:15:06,906 --> 00:15:12,202 system or an LMS to do to keep track of all sorts of assignments and grades. 326 00:15:12,453 --> 00:15:13,579 It's very. Helpful. 327 00:15:13,579 --> 00:15:15,039 And they most of them. 328 00:15:15,039 --> 00:15:18,250 Purport to include an AI detection system. 329 00:15:18,250 --> 00:15:22,004 They'll they'll say, we have a built in, plagiarism detector. 330 00:15:22,004 --> 00:15:23,130 That, you know, if an AI. 331 00:15:23,130 --> 00:15:27,051 Written something comes in, we'll flag it and we'll tell you that is a. 332 00:15:27,593 --> 00:15:28,052 I think we've. 333 00:15:28,052 --> 00:15:31,263 Seen it over and over again in the statistics that that is kind of. A, 334 00:15:33,015 --> 00:15:33,390 It's very 335 00:15:33,390 --> 00:15:36,393 much a cat and mouse kind of game because the, the, 336 00:15:37,144 --> 00:15:41,231 the system may catch a certain kind of AI written content, but the AI systems 337 00:15:41,231 --> 00:15:45,110 will then evolve to get around the, the hunters essentially. 338 00:15:45,235 --> 00:15:48,238 So then the hunters become a little more sophisticated than the systems do. 339 00:15:48,238 --> 00:15:51,241 And so it's this back and forth. That. 340 00:15:51,533 --> 00:15:54,662 Frankly, I just I don't want to get involved in with my students. 341 00:15:55,162 --> 00:15:59,333 So. You know, I don't want to, you know, I don't want that to be the worry that. 342 00:15:59,333 --> 00:16:05,005 The, And so my, my encouragement to them is like one operate with integrity. 343 00:16:05,005 --> 00:16:06,382 I tell them on day one. 344 00:16:06,382 --> 00:16:07,675 If you like. 345 00:16:07,675 --> 00:16:10,135 Here's what you can use AI for. 346 00:16:10,135 --> 00:16:11,553 I'm. Sure you've all been exposed to it. 347 00:16:11,553 --> 00:16:12,596 You can use this. 348 00:16:12,596 --> 00:16:15,808 I said, but if you're if there's a temptation to use it in a way that's 349 00:16:16,350 --> 00:16:19,269 outside of that, come talk to me. Right. 350 00:16:19,269 --> 00:16:20,187 I would rather. 351 00:16:20,187 --> 00:16:22,314 My job here is to make you successful and to help. 352 00:16:22,314 --> 00:16:24,483 And so please engage with me. 353 00:16:24,483 --> 00:16:26,110 I'll help you get started so you can. 354 00:16:26,110 --> 00:16:28,946 You know. It's very much. Like. 355 00:16:28,946 --> 00:16:32,074 Accountability and discipleship within the congregation of a local church. 356 00:16:32,074 --> 00:16:33,325 Community. Like don't 357 00:16:34,410 --> 00:16:37,121 you know, just be open and frank with what's going on. 358 00:16:37,121 --> 00:16:39,498 My goal here is to help you. 359 00:16:39,498 --> 00:16:43,460 But within the classroom itself, I, I these days 360 00:16:44,461 --> 00:16:46,797 have pushed. 361 00:16:46,797 --> 00:16:51,176 Assignments that might have an I inclusion temptation off to the side. 362 00:16:51,176 --> 00:16:54,138 I have a lot more students doing oral presentations. 363 00:16:54,138 --> 00:16:56,557 I sort of gone back to the classic rhetoric. 364 00:16:56,557 --> 00:16:58,475 Hey, here's this, here's this case we're studying. 365 00:16:58,475 --> 00:17:00,019 Here's this conclusion. 366 00:17:00,019 --> 00:17:02,229 I have a conversation with. Me about it. 367 00:17:02,229 --> 00:17:02,479 Right. 368 00:17:02,479 --> 00:17:04,940 Show me that you know what's going on. 369 00:17:04,940 --> 00:17:05,691 you know. 370 00:17:05,691 --> 00:17:08,527 We've gone back to pencil and paper examinations. 371 00:17:08,527 --> 00:17:09,445 Right? Which, you know. 372 00:17:09,445 --> 00:17:10,738 Teachers would love the efficiency 373 00:17:10,738 --> 00:17:13,699 of a digital exam that the system can grade for you. 374 00:17:13,782 --> 00:17:15,868 But it's also open to manipulation. 375 00:17:15,868 --> 00:17:16,618 And so. 376 00:17:16,618 --> 00:17:16,952 You know, if you're. 377 00:17:16,952 --> 00:17:18,996 Going to take a statistics quiz with me, it's going to be 378 00:17:18,996 --> 00:17:20,122 it's going to be pencil and paper. 379 00:17:21,290 --> 00:17:21,915 and that's. 380 00:17:21,915 --> 00:17:25,461 That's fine, I will I will gladly shoulder the little bit of extra grading burden. 381 00:17:25,919 --> 00:17:27,087 To know that. 382 00:17:27,087 --> 00:17:28,964 This is, this is really what you know. 383 00:17:28,964 --> 00:17:29,757 And then to help you. 384 00:17:29,757 --> 00:17:32,634 Along the way. 385 00:17:32,634 --> 00:17:34,136 So I'm hearing you. 386 00:17:34,136 --> 00:17:35,137 Hearing you do two things. 387 00:17:35,137 --> 00:17:37,347 One is trying to 388 00:17:37,347 --> 00:17:40,309 build trust and integrity and know your students 389 00:17:40,309 --> 00:17:43,312 and the other one is, 390 00:17:44,605 --> 00:17:47,608 you know, being savvy about it and removing 391 00:17:47,608 --> 00:17:50,569 some of those temptations and opportunities a little bit. 392 00:17:51,111 --> 00:17:53,781 So I've been out of the 393 00:17:53,781 --> 00:17:56,784 out of the university world for, 394 00:17:57,576 --> 00:18:00,537 like seven years or so now. 395 00:18:00,746 --> 00:18:02,331 Yeah. I can't imagine how they deal with it. 396 00:18:02,331 --> 00:18:05,501 In some of the classes classes I used to help with as a TA, you might have, 397 00:18:06,418 --> 00:18:09,421 you know, a couple hundred students in the class and then 398 00:18:09,505 --> 00:18:12,633 got 25 students assigned for each teaching assistant or something, 399 00:18:13,550 --> 00:18:17,179 and, you know, writing assignments uploaded through 400 00:18:18,347 --> 00:18:19,348 exactly that, 401 00:18:19,348 --> 00:18:22,309 one of those learning management systems. 402 00:18:23,602 --> 00:18:24,311 yeah. 403 00:18:24,311 --> 00:18:27,314 With no relationship there in that volume. 404 00:18:28,941 --> 00:18:31,693 It feels like you're fighting a losing game, but 405 00:18:31,693 --> 00:18:34,696 so maybe if anything, it just calls us back to, 406 00:18:34,988 --> 00:18:36,406 you know, 407 00:18:36,406 --> 00:18:39,409 actually closer relationships and education and 408 00:18:40,619 --> 00:18:43,622 things like oral exams. 409 00:18:43,622 --> 00:18:45,541 I think you hit on one of the key points in. 410 00:18:45,541 --> 00:18:47,167 That the the. 411 00:18:47,167 --> 00:18:47,793 You have to imagine 412 00:18:47,793 --> 00:18:51,088 how sort of higher education has evolved over the years that it's. 413 00:18:51,672 --> 00:18:54,341 It's moved away from the small. 414 00:18:54,341 --> 00:18:57,052 I don't remember the, the Oxford model, I believe they called it. 415 00:18:57,052 --> 00:19:00,472 But the conference room table with an instructor and then conversation. 416 00:19:01,140 --> 00:19:02,266 And we've. Moved far from that. 417 00:19:02,266 --> 00:19:03,934 But that has been. The. 418 00:19:03,934 --> 00:19:07,479 That has been the trajectory as the incentives for colleges 419 00:19:07,479 --> 00:19:10,524 have been to grow endowment and student population. 420 00:19:10,899 --> 00:19:13,902 And so they you know, I have to imagine 100 years ago, 421 00:19:14,111 --> 00:19:17,072 the idea of a 300 person classroom with a single instructor 422 00:19:17,072 --> 00:19:21,034 and a coterie of TAs to help would have been unthinkable to. 423 00:19:21,034 --> 00:19:23,162 A, Elite university. 424 00:19:23,162 --> 00:19:24,872 But now it's commonplace. And so 425 00:19:26,039 --> 00:19:27,416 universities. 426 00:19:27,416 --> 00:19:28,083 You know. 427 00:19:28,083 --> 00:19:32,337 Take advantage from a cost basis on the efficiency of doing it that way. 428 00:19:32,337 --> 00:19:33,297 There's, you know, it's 429 00:19:33,297 --> 00:19:36,967 very efficient to get the information out there from one expert to 300 students. 430 00:19:37,384 --> 00:19:40,387 And then have. A team to support. 431 00:19:40,470 --> 00:19:43,807 But you to your point, you lose the. 432 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:47,603 Sort of any relational knowledge between instructor and student, 433 00:19:47,936 --> 00:19:50,898 as well as how to, you know, individually tailor learning outcomes. 434 00:19:50,898 --> 00:19:51,773 Right? 435 00:19:51,773 --> 00:19:52,733 It's just not reasonable 436 00:19:52,733 --> 00:19:56,361 to expect an instructor in that context to know every student. 437 00:19:56,361 --> 00:19:57,696 What's their different learning style? 438 00:19:57,696 --> 00:19:58,864 What are their career goals? 439 00:19:58,864 --> 00:20:01,867 How do you help them along that road? Now? 440 00:20:02,159 --> 00:20:06,246 I'm not suggesting that large universities are in and of themselves wrong. 441 00:20:06,747 --> 00:20:08,665 But I think we have to just. 442 00:20:08,665 --> 00:20:12,711 Honestly assess where where is the incentive for these institutions. 443 00:20:12,711 --> 00:20:13,045 Right. 444 00:20:13,045 --> 00:20:17,007 They how do they, consider themselves as doing better or worse? 445 00:20:17,466 --> 00:20:18,050 And so, 446 00:20:18,050 --> 00:20:21,345 you know, Sattler, where I teach happens to be a small, fairly new institution. 447 00:20:21,845 --> 00:20:22,512 And so we have that 448 00:20:22,512 --> 00:20:26,350 we have that advantage of sitting in this small class space for now. 449 00:20:26,892 --> 00:20:29,144 but we're going to face the same pressures at some point. 450 00:20:29,144 --> 00:20:30,062 Is the. 451 00:20:30,062 --> 00:20:33,523 Pressure might be like grow without bound and do whatever it takes to do. 452 00:20:33,523 --> 00:20:35,484 That. But my hope is that the. 453 00:20:35,484 --> 00:20:39,738 This institution will resist it in favor of knowing the students, 454 00:20:39,738 --> 00:20:42,866 being able to help them contend with the realities of AI. 455 00:20:42,866 --> 00:20:45,202 Or any other. You know, whatever comes next, ten years from. 456 00:20:45,202 --> 00:20:46,370 Now, I. Don't know. 457 00:20:46,370 --> 00:20:49,373 Where we'll be, but the yeah. 458 00:20:49,539 --> 00:20:52,542 If if human nature has remained the same and it has. 459 00:20:52,542 --> 00:20:54,670 There will be the new version of I don't have. 460 00:20:54,670 --> 00:20:56,171 Something to watch out. For. So. 461 00:20:58,757 --> 00:20:59,174 Yeah. 462 00:20:59,174 --> 00:21:02,177 No, I like that observation and the kind of forethought there. 463 00:21:02,177 --> 00:21:04,721 Yeah. You're going to have to. 464 00:21:04,721 --> 00:21:07,724 I guess being small gives you a chance to 465 00:21:08,058 --> 00:21:11,311 set a deliberate trajectory, like, okay, how are we going to 466 00:21:12,312 --> 00:21:14,314 how are we going to handle this. 467 00:21:14,314 --> 00:21:17,317 yeah. 468 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:18,610 And as you talked about that. 469 00:21:18,610 --> 00:21:21,196 It made me grateful for, 470 00:21:21,196 --> 00:21:24,616 not the university setting, but, you know, some of the practices 471 00:21:24,658 --> 00:21:28,787 that I've been familiar with in a church setting where we've got small Sunday 472 00:21:28,787 --> 00:21:32,791 schools that are discussion based or we've got in home small groups or whatever. 473 00:21:32,791 --> 00:21:35,210 You read a passage together. 474 00:21:35,210 --> 00:21:37,546 Sure. Somebody might 475 00:21:37,546 --> 00:21:40,549 pull up copilot on their phone and say, well, 476 00:21:40,841 --> 00:21:44,344 you know, here's the background or whatever, but hopefully there's enough 477 00:21:44,344 --> 00:21:48,640 people there who have studied who can ask questions about about that. 478 00:21:49,516 --> 00:21:51,351 You're in there. You're face to face working on it. 479 00:21:53,854 --> 00:21:56,857 and the other side of AI in the classroom? 480 00:21:57,941 --> 00:22:00,944 do you give them assignments that are specifically how to learn it? 481 00:22:01,862 --> 00:22:05,699 Or sometimes we just assume anybody can put something into ChatGPT. 482 00:22:05,907 --> 00:22:09,119 But, you know, I've also I haven't done much myself 483 00:22:10,287 --> 00:22:13,498 but seen various experts say, well, actually, 484 00:22:14,458 --> 00:22:17,252 the more you know about it, the more use you'll get out of ChatGPT 485 00:22:17,252 --> 00:22:20,172 if you're coming in there without any context, it's 486 00:22:20,172 --> 00:22:23,175 not going to help you that much. 487 00:22:23,633 --> 00:22:24,634 are there things like that 488 00:22:24,634 --> 00:22:27,637 that you do to say this is how you use it? 489 00:22:28,889 --> 00:22:30,807 Don't often do do that. 490 00:22:30,807 --> 00:22:33,769 But I think the. I think that argument is. 491 00:22:33,769 --> 00:22:38,523 A, Slippery slope argument oftentimes in that, you know. 492 00:22:38,940 --> 00:22:39,691 Well. 493 00:22:39,691 --> 00:22:42,152 In order for it to be useful, you have to use it a ton. 494 00:22:42,152 --> 00:22:42,694 Right? 495 00:22:42,694 --> 00:22:44,988 That's that's true for almost anything. 496 00:22:44,988 --> 00:22:47,491 Right to, to be you know, the. 497 00:22:47,491 --> 00:22:48,241 More adept 498 00:22:48,241 --> 00:22:51,411 you get at it, the more you know, one, they'll say, oh, you're using it better. 499 00:22:52,287 --> 00:22:54,915 They don't acknowledge the dependance that is created. 500 00:22:54,915 --> 00:22:56,124 Say like, well, you know, the more you use it, 501 00:22:56,124 --> 00:22:58,377 the more you're, the more you're going to be. 502 00:22:58,377 --> 00:23:04,007 Like the, the, The ease from which you get from point A to point B 503 00:23:04,007 --> 00:23:07,886 in an assignment or in a learning outcome becomes, becomes addictive. 504 00:23:08,220 --> 00:23:09,346 Like, oh, I don't. 505 00:23:09,346 --> 00:23:11,473 Know how I could do this any other way. 506 00:23:11,473 --> 00:23:13,308 You know, that's the I think that is what I. 507 00:23:13,308 --> 00:23:16,019 Really think we need to avoid is, 508 00:23:16,978 --> 00:23:19,981 you know, fight that argument that I the. 509 00:23:20,273 --> 00:23:22,526 I chuckle because there was a it was about six months ago 510 00:23:22,526 --> 00:23:25,529 now this is when ChatGPT was becoming was exploding in. 511 00:23:25,529 --> 00:23:26,738 Popularity and. 512 00:23:26,738 --> 00:23:28,198 If you went on a job posting. 513 00:23:28,198 --> 00:23:32,327 Board, there were people who would would style themselves. 514 00:23:32,327 --> 00:23:36,206 They were prompt engineers, not meaning they were on time, but they. 515 00:23:36,206 --> 00:23:38,125 Meaning that they would. 516 00:23:38,125 --> 00:23:40,961 They had learned to write ChatGPT prompts. 517 00:23:40,961 --> 00:23:42,838 And they and they were they were. 518 00:23:42,838 --> 00:23:45,966 Saying that, you know, this is a real necessary skill. 519 00:23:46,925 --> 00:23:49,970 Now you don't see any of those postings right, that has gone. 520 00:23:50,429 --> 00:23:53,432 And I think just because we've 521 00:23:53,890 --> 00:23:55,559 I. Don't think you want to jump, we want to jump on this 522 00:23:55,559 --> 00:23:58,979 really rapid bandwagon of like getting good at this will be. 523 00:23:58,979 --> 00:24:02,691 A, a value, you know, will become a profession. 524 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:05,902 it won't. And I think we already saw that. 525 00:24:06,903 --> 00:24:09,114 And I think it just. 526 00:24:09,114 --> 00:24:10,824 Yeah, it's not a. 527 00:24:10,824 --> 00:24:11,450 Not an argument. 528 00:24:11,450 --> 00:24:14,661 I want to, push too hard. 529 00:24:14,828 --> 00:24:17,706 I don't, 530 00:24:17,706 --> 00:24:21,376 I think if a student asks like, how can something like, ChatGPT. 531 00:24:21,501 --> 00:24:24,629 I actually had a conversation with a computer scientist last night. 532 00:24:24,629 --> 00:24:28,008 He was at our home for a Bible study and I said, well. 533 00:24:28,008 --> 00:24:29,134 How about, like. 534 00:24:29,134 --> 00:24:32,220 Are you using code generation GPTs right. 535 00:24:32,220 --> 00:24:33,972 There's there's these engines that can generate 536 00:24:33,972 --> 00:24:36,266 computer code to do all sorts of stuff. 537 00:24:36,266 --> 00:24:37,517 And he said, well. 538 00:24:37,517 --> 00:24:37,893 You know. 539 00:24:37,893 --> 00:24:39,102 We kind of do. That. 540 00:24:39,102 --> 00:24:42,022 But the, the, 541 00:24:42,022 --> 00:24:45,066 the. Message I have from my students oftentimes is like, 542 00:24:45,066 --> 00:24:46,526 understand what the model is good. 543 00:24:46,526 --> 00:24:47,611 For, right? 544 00:24:47,611 --> 00:24:50,030 If and if it's a morally neutral thing. 545 00:24:50,030 --> 00:24:50,322 Right. 546 00:24:50,322 --> 00:24:53,492 Like I'd like to create a code to update my website a little bit. 547 00:24:53,825 --> 00:24:55,452 Wonder. Wonderful, right? 548 00:24:55,452 --> 00:24:57,829 That's what it's good for. And it saves you time and effort. 549 00:24:57,829 --> 00:24:59,289 But the to me. 550 00:24:59,289 --> 00:25:02,292 That is an effective use case of something like I. 551 00:25:02,417 --> 00:25:05,879 But there's so many others that I think short circuit our ability to grow 552 00:25:05,879 --> 00:25:06,671 and to change. 553 00:25:06,671 --> 00:25:09,174 They kind of like we were talking about before you lose the. 554 00:25:10,133 --> 00:25:12,552 the. Synapse development that you might have had if you had. 555 00:25:12,552 --> 00:25:14,804 Struggled the, you know, I, I come. 556 00:25:14,804 --> 00:25:16,473 From an engineering background and sometimes in. 557 00:25:16,473 --> 00:25:18,517 Programing. When you're working on a computer 558 00:25:18,517 --> 00:25:21,102 programing project, it doesn't work forever. 559 00:25:21,102 --> 00:25:24,564 And at some point your mind tells you, I don't think it's ever going to work. 560 00:25:25,232 --> 00:25:25,398 Right. 561 00:25:25,398 --> 00:25:27,943 You almost you give up in. Despair until. 562 00:25:27,943 --> 00:25:29,236 You realize that moment of. 563 00:25:29,236 --> 00:25:31,404 Like, oh, right there is where my. 564 00:25:31,404 --> 00:25:32,405 Error was. 565 00:25:32,405 --> 00:25:34,658 And now that I fixed it, the whole thing works. It unravels. 566 00:25:34,658 --> 00:25:37,410 And it's this very satisfying. Moment. 567 00:25:37,410 --> 00:25:40,747 That if you don't, if you've not labored through, 568 00:25:41,164 --> 00:25:43,833 you'll boy, you just you miss so much 569 00:25:43,833 --> 00:25:46,836 opportunity. 570 00:25:48,088 --> 00:25:48,755 Yeah. 571 00:25:48,755 --> 00:25:51,758 So even in coding, even in the most computer 572 00:25:52,509 --> 00:25:54,678 computer intensive occupation there is 573 00:25:55,762 --> 00:25:57,722 got the dangers. 574 00:25:57,722 --> 00:25:58,181 Yeah. 575 00:25:58,181 --> 00:26:00,850 I don't really mess with code, but 576 00:26:00,850 --> 00:26:01,893 that was one of my places. 577 00:26:01,893 --> 00:26:07,941 Using, Microsoft Copilot at work was actually spreadsheets 578 00:26:07,941 --> 00:26:12,112 and using some formulas that were a little bit beyond my range of competence. 579 00:26:12,821 --> 00:26:15,824 it worked pretty good for that. 580 00:26:15,991 --> 00:26:17,367 But the same thing would apply. 581 00:26:17,367 --> 00:26:18,451 Like, that wasn't, though. 582 00:26:18,451 --> 00:26:22,455 That would not be the way to to really get really good at using them. 583 00:26:23,999 --> 00:26:26,418 And, you know, I had developed spreadsheet skills 584 00:26:26,418 --> 00:26:29,421 the old fashioned way to, to a certain extent. 585 00:26:29,796 --> 00:26:32,841 And so copilot, let me do 586 00:26:32,841 --> 00:26:35,844 a few things that were a little bit more advanced. 587 00:26:36,094 --> 00:26:38,013 but again, 588 00:26:38,013 --> 00:26:41,016 exactly to your point, it didn't develop, you know. 589 00:26:41,099 --> 00:26:41,433 Okay. 590 00:26:41,433 --> 00:26:44,936 Now I have regex formulas in my spreadsheets. 591 00:26:45,186 --> 00:26:46,521 I still don't know how to write regex, 592 00:26:47,522 --> 00:26:49,482 for example. 593 00:26:49,482 --> 00:26:54,904 So Again, to zoom out, we've talked about this from a bunch of angles. 594 00:26:54,946 --> 00:26:57,949 you know, 595 00:26:57,949 --> 00:27:00,910 engaging in deep study rather than just looking up the answers. 596 00:27:00,910 --> 00:27:03,747 something that you keep coming back to. 597 00:27:03,747 --> 00:27:08,084 how would you articulate maybe the the fundamental or basic 598 00:27:08,460 --> 00:27:11,463 value of study? 599 00:27:12,005 --> 00:27:15,008 Comes down to the 600 00:27:15,175 --> 00:27:16,176 both. From the. 601 00:27:16,176 --> 00:27:17,385 From Deuteronomy. 602 00:27:17,385 --> 00:27:19,346 But also echoed in Jesus's words of. 603 00:27:19,346 --> 00:27:21,389 What does it mean to love the. Lord. 604 00:27:21,389 --> 00:27:25,018 With all your heart, soul, mind, and all highlight mind and strength. 605 00:27:25,143 --> 00:27:28,396 And so we we have this charge. 606 00:27:28,396 --> 00:27:29,564 And I think it it is. 607 00:27:29,564 --> 00:27:34,361 For the Lord gave us minds and challenging questions and problems for. 608 00:27:34,361 --> 00:27:35,654 Our own good. Right. 609 00:27:35,654 --> 00:27:37,572 They're they're an actual good for us. 610 00:27:37,572 --> 00:27:38,740 Right. The. 611 00:27:38,740 --> 00:27:40,617 The scriptures in the sense, 612 00:27:40,617 --> 00:27:43,870 in a real theological sense that it is the food for our souls. 613 00:27:44,496 --> 00:27:44,746 Right? 614 00:27:44,746 --> 00:27:45,580 We need to like. 615 00:27:45,580 --> 00:27:48,583 When we study, when we meditate. On. 616 00:27:48,875 --> 00:27:51,878 The text, on what God has said, there's a. 617 00:27:52,170 --> 00:27:53,546 You know, the truth of. Who he is. 618 00:27:53,546 --> 00:27:55,298 And love for him is illuminated and. 619 00:27:55,298 --> 00:27:59,386 Grown and you know, we can you can. 620 00:27:59,386 --> 00:28:02,514 Arrive at the same destination, right? 621 00:28:02,514 --> 00:28:04,391 Either, you know, when in. 622 00:28:04,391 --> 00:28:06,434 In study, you know, say you. Are. 623 00:28:06,434 --> 00:28:09,938 Doing an app for a Bible reading plan on your an app on your phone, 624 00:28:10,313 --> 00:28:11,981 and you just decide to have it. 625 00:28:11,981 --> 00:28:14,943 You know, I had a read through in my car at 10x the speed 626 00:28:15,652 --> 00:28:18,446 right which you can do, you can set up in the app to do that. 627 00:28:18,446 --> 00:28:21,825 But or I'm going to at at cost. 628 00:28:21,825 --> 00:28:22,742 It might cost me sleep. 629 00:28:22,742 --> 00:28:25,745 I'm going to get up and open a paper Bible and, 630 00:28:26,162 --> 00:28:28,873 and work my way through each of the pages as I go. 631 00:28:28,873 --> 00:28:31,376 And there's a there's a difference. 632 00:28:31,376 --> 00:28:33,128 There's a true difference there. Right? 633 00:28:33,128 --> 00:28:35,422 If you, I don't. Want to use a. 634 00:28:36,506 --> 00:28:38,049 It doesn't I don't mean it to be a silly analogy, 635 00:28:38,049 --> 00:28:39,968 but when you're you're driving from Boston, 636 00:28:39,968 --> 00:28:42,971 where I live, to Portland, Maine, which is a beautiful city. 637 00:28:42,971 --> 00:28:45,181 Right? You can take the highway there and it goes pretty straight. 638 00:28:45,181 --> 00:28:46,474 It gets you, 639 00:28:46,474 --> 00:28:49,477 you know, it doesn't take very long, takes an hour and a half or so to get there. 640 00:28:49,853 --> 00:28:50,103 if you. 641 00:28:50,103 --> 00:28:53,648 Take the back roads, though, you actually get to know what the state of Maine is. 642 00:28:53,648 --> 00:28:55,525 Like, what you like. 643 00:28:55,525 --> 00:28:57,152 You know, on the highway, you miss all of those things. 644 00:28:57,152 --> 00:28:58,486 And so. 645 00:28:58,486 --> 00:28:59,529 I think in with. 646 00:28:59,529 --> 00:29:02,949 Regard to deep study, you can get to the destination. 647 00:29:02,949 --> 00:29:04,325 But you. 648 00:29:04,325 --> 00:29:07,120 You have missed the richness of what you could have. 649 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,540 Right. If and yeah, I would I. 650 00:29:10,540 --> 00:29:13,918 Would ask the value question of like, okay, so I got to the destination. 651 00:29:14,294 --> 00:29:16,129 You know. I didn't have the richness. That's fine. 652 00:29:17,630 --> 00:29:20,091 What is the cost versus value you've gained? 653 00:29:20,091 --> 00:29:23,094 Or you may have gained a little bit of time, a little bit of efficiency. 654 00:29:24,804 --> 00:29:25,555 But it but. 655 00:29:25,555 --> 00:29:28,516 Ultimately you got the answer and it came up sort of empty. 656 00:29:28,516 --> 00:29:28,683 Right? 657 00:29:28,683 --> 00:29:31,686 You've you've you have shoed. 658 00:29:32,020 --> 00:29:34,981 Opportunities to learn, to grow, to be enriched for the sake of. 659 00:29:34,981 --> 00:29:36,483 Speed. 660 00:29:36,483 --> 00:29:38,109 Right. And I. Think as Christians, we're. 661 00:29:38,109 --> 00:29:40,236 We're. Called to resist that. Right? 662 00:29:40,236 --> 00:29:41,988 The goal is not just to. 663 00:29:41,988 --> 00:29:43,156 You know, get through our. 664 00:29:43,156 --> 00:29:46,159 Lives as quickly and efficiently and painlessly as possible. 665 00:29:46,326 --> 00:29:48,995 It's to glorify the Lord who saved us. 666 00:29:48,995 --> 00:29:49,204 Right. 667 00:29:49,204 --> 00:29:52,207 And so in in doing that, we need to see him in his richness. 668 00:29:52,207 --> 00:29:54,000 And I, I, I. 669 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,795 Have a hard time thinking that that comes in another way 670 00:29:56,795 --> 00:29:59,798 other than deep study in deep community and discipleship. 671 00:30:00,215 --> 00:30:00,381 Right? 672 00:30:00,381 --> 00:30:03,885 Which you cannot that's not those are not things we can outsource. 673 00:30:04,177 --> 00:30:07,055 They they they are costly. 674 00:30:07,055 --> 00:30:10,058 But they are. Good. They grow our souls. We. 675 00:30:10,225 --> 00:30:11,768 I heard someone describe it recently. That, 676 00:30:12,852 --> 00:30:13,770 he was he's a. 677 00:30:13,770 --> 00:30:15,855 This is a pastor who's a fan of deep. 678 00:30:15,855 --> 00:30:17,482 Study, and he he. 679 00:30:17,482 --> 00:30:17,899 Said, I, 680 00:30:17,899 --> 00:30:20,193 I don't want to give deep study assignments 681 00:30:20,193 --> 00:30:23,696 in order to create people who have large minds and small souls, 682 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,367 like, we actually want it to be both things large, right? 683 00:30:27,367 --> 00:30:27,867 We want. 684 00:30:27,867 --> 00:30:30,537 Large minds that are educated, that gives us. 685 00:30:30,537 --> 00:30:32,121 Breadth of soul. 686 00:30:32,121 --> 00:30:33,540 We want to, you know, know. 687 00:30:33,540 --> 00:30:35,959 And love Jesus as fully as we can in this life. 688 00:30:35,959 --> 00:30:38,711 And so, until we meet him face to face, right? 689 00:30:38,711 --> 00:30:39,921 That's our. 690 00:30:39,921 --> 00:30:43,925 So I guess that's one, one charge for scriptural study, but also in. 691 00:30:44,634 --> 00:30:46,386 You know, take it into a. 692 00:30:46,386 --> 00:30:47,595 A workplace context, right. 693 00:30:47,595 --> 00:30:50,932 When you're trying to learn a skill or a trade, again, I read. 694 00:30:50,932 --> 00:30:53,810 Another just short article. About, a. 695 00:30:53,810 --> 00:30:56,813 computer scientist at Google, so, you know, well-known company. 696 00:30:56,980 --> 00:31:00,817 But what made this individual contributor employee so special? 697 00:31:01,150 --> 00:31:05,697 He was a high ranking individual was that he could look at a. 698 00:31:06,114 --> 00:31:08,741 At a problem or not even it. 699 00:31:08,741 --> 00:31:09,909 Wasn't even a known problem. 700 00:31:09,909 --> 00:31:12,120 But his intuition would tell him something. 701 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:13,705 That something was’nt optimal. 702 00:31:13,705 --> 00:31:15,039 It would it could be faster. 703 00:31:15,039 --> 00:31:18,501 It could. Be, And less memory intensive. 704 00:31:18,585 --> 00:31:22,297 And intuitively, he could dig down into the weeds and in about two hours 705 00:31:22,297 --> 00:31:25,466 do what it would take a team of lesser trained engineers weeks to complete. 706 00:31:26,092 --> 00:31:26,551 Right. 707 00:31:26,551 --> 00:31:29,429 And that is not something that that. 708 00:31:29,429 --> 00:31:31,055 AI can replicate, right? 709 00:31:31,055 --> 00:31:33,349 It can. Most computer scientists are like, I don't want AI to. 710 00:31:33,349 --> 00:31:36,019 Code for me. Right. This is and they're not worried about their jobs. 711 00:31:36,019 --> 00:31:37,854 They just don't like how well it does it. 712 00:31:37,854 --> 00:31:39,355 And so. 713 00:31:39,355 --> 00:31:39,856 what is it that. 714 00:31:39,856 --> 00:31:43,192 Creates this engineer's intuition to solve a problem 715 00:31:43,192 --> 00:31:46,654 so effectively, or even in the carpentry or the, in the contracting trades. 716 00:31:47,071 --> 00:31:49,574 There's, there's cleverness and there's intuition 717 00:31:49,574 --> 00:31:52,577 and there's brilliance that is shown by some. 718 00:31:52,744 --> 00:31:53,328 Like how. 719 00:31:53,328 --> 00:31:55,663 Did you think to solve it. That way. Right. 720 00:31:55,663 --> 00:31:56,664 And it and it. 721 00:31:56,664 --> 00:31:58,374 Was not by taking shortcuts and learning. 722 00:31:58,374 --> 00:32:00,793 It was by observation and. 723 00:32:00,793 --> 00:32:03,588 Mistake and. Recovery and resilience. 724 00:32:03,588 --> 00:32:05,840 And so. That like. 725 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,384 If you want it, if you want to be excellent at something. 726 00:32:08,384 --> 00:32:10,553 You you can't take shortcuts. 727 00:32:10,553 --> 00:32:11,888 You have to fail. You have to learn. 728 00:32:11,888 --> 00:32:14,933 You have to do the hard study, to be trained. 729 00:32:14,933 --> 00:32:17,936 So your mind operates as a tool. Right? I. 730 00:32:17,977 --> 00:32:20,271 I think that is if I had to give a pitch for why. 731 00:32:22,106 --> 00:32:22,941 Study is so. 732 00:32:22,941 --> 00:32:25,902 Important. and I won't even say. 733 00:32:26,486 --> 00:32:29,489 You know, I think deep study is a is certainly a valid term. 734 00:32:29,489 --> 00:32:31,908 But, I think we as Christians, we. 735 00:32:31,908 --> 00:32:32,784 We, we may. 736 00:32:32,784 --> 00:32:35,536 Overuse the, may overuse of the term depth, 737 00:32:35,536 --> 00:32:38,498 you know, what does it mean to be deep versus shallow? 738 00:32:38,498 --> 00:32:41,084 I think the, the. Charges. To engage. 739 00:32:41,084 --> 00:32:42,377 And learn and things that, 740 00:32:42,377 --> 00:32:46,589 that actually are a challenge to you that make your mind fatigued. 741 00:32:46,839 --> 00:32:48,675 Right? That you're, you know. 742 00:32:48,675 --> 00:32:52,303 You can't expect someone to, to get up and run a marathon just by walking 743 00:32:52,428 --> 00:32:54,305 from the couch to the fridge every day. 744 00:32:54,305 --> 00:32:56,683 Right? They have. To go do things that are that are. Tiring. 745 00:32:56,683 --> 00:32:59,268 They have to. They have to learn and be trained. 746 00:32:59,268 --> 00:33:00,395 And it's the same with our minds. 747 00:33:00,395 --> 00:33:02,271 We we have to do things that are. 748 00:33:02,271 --> 00:33:03,940 Hard, you. Know, you have to. Go. 749 00:33:03,940 --> 00:33:04,983 I love here at Sattler 750 00:33:04,983 --> 00:33:08,611 that they force all students to learn the original biblical languages. 751 00:33:09,445 --> 00:33:10,571 For many, that's hard. 752 00:33:10,571 --> 00:33:13,783 And for many in the American church, that's terribly intimidating. 753 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:14,659 But like. 754 00:33:14,659 --> 00:33:17,662 That's your your mind can be pushed in that. Way. 755 00:33:17,787 --> 00:33:19,122 It can be stretched. 756 00:33:19,122 --> 00:33:19,288 Right. 757 00:33:19,288 --> 00:33:21,791 God gave us a written revelation that we're to interact with. 758 00:33:21,791 --> 00:33:22,917 And so. 759 00:33:22,917 --> 00:33:25,878 Boy, it's, sorry your going to get me going on this. 760 00:33:25,878 --> 00:33:26,796 But I think. 761 00:33:26,796 --> 00:33:28,923 Doing the hard work of read and study. 762 00:33:30,091 --> 00:33:32,385 Like. 763 00:33:32,385 --> 00:33:34,345 I think God, God gave us that for a reason. 764 00:33:34,345 --> 00:33:37,348 We're meant to pursue him in those ways. 765 00:33:40,393 --> 00:33:41,519 Yeah. 766 00:33:41,519 --> 00:33:45,273 I hope you guys don't lose that original language emphasis. 767 00:33:46,399 --> 00:33:49,402 Yeah, that's something that's important and worth. 768 00:33:49,902 --> 00:33:52,780 Worth fighting for and maintaining 769 00:33:52,780 --> 00:33:56,200 I was going to ask you, ask you for a concluding plug for the Studious Life. 770 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,203 And I think you've given us a pretty strong plug here. 771 00:33:59,370 --> 00:34:01,748 I'm hearing words like, 772 00:34:01,748 --> 00:34:04,751 yeah, growth, doing the work. 773 00:34:05,043 --> 00:34:08,504 loving God by actually treating his word as food to be 774 00:34:09,505 --> 00:34:12,508 worked on, meditated on, digested, 775 00:34:13,259 --> 00:34:16,262 relationships. 776 00:34:16,679 --> 00:34:18,222 Yeah. 777 00:34:18,222 --> 00:34:20,391 thanks for articulating that. 778 00:34:20,391 --> 00:34:23,394 is there anything else you'd like to close with? 779 00:34:23,436 --> 00:34:26,856 So you mentioned relationships, too, and I, you know, I think one of our. 780 00:34:27,023 --> 00:34:27,523 You know. 781 00:34:27,523 --> 00:34:31,444 As Christians, we have these relational calls where the Lord is a relational God. 782 00:34:31,444 --> 00:34:33,321 And so he's given us. That, that. 783 00:34:33,321 --> 00:34:34,572 Call one is. 784 00:34:35,782 --> 00:34:36,824 In, I. 785 00:34:36,824 --> 00:34:38,701 Think, in the context of discipleship. Right. 786 00:34:38,701 --> 00:34:41,245 You're, you know. Older Christian mentoring and discipling. 787 00:34:41,245 --> 00:34:45,249 A younger one, I Think, our effectiveness 788 00:34:45,249 --> 00:34:48,252 as disciple ers or disciples even. Is. 789 00:34:49,212 --> 00:34:51,339 Determined how we've, 790 00:34:51,339 --> 00:34:54,550 I guess, is a function of how well we've we've studied 791 00:34:54,550 --> 00:34:58,638 how we've been humble and willing to train our minds to do that. 792 00:34:58,805 --> 00:34:59,055 Right. 793 00:34:59,055 --> 00:35:02,141 If someone you know, if a disciple or I say a mentee of. 794 00:35:02,141 --> 00:35:03,810 Mine came with a with. 795 00:35:03,810 --> 00:35:06,938 A deep, grievous sin or a trauma that had occurred. 796 00:35:07,605 --> 00:35:08,147 I think. 797 00:35:08,147 --> 00:35:11,317 I would I would have been irresponsible if I hadn't put in the time 798 00:35:11,317 --> 00:35:14,320 and labor beforehand in order to wisely counsel that person. 799 00:35:14,987 --> 00:35:15,238 Right. 800 00:35:15,238 --> 00:35:16,781 So I think the the shortcuts. 801 00:35:16,781 --> 00:35:19,575 We, you know, we may if we avoid the, the. 802 00:35:19,575 --> 00:35:21,452 Studious life, 803 00:35:21,452 --> 00:35:23,746 we're going to find ourselves in a place where we're out of our depth 804 00:35:23,746 --> 00:35:25,164 fairly quickly. Right? 805 00:35:25,164 --> 00:35:29,085 Because the world around us is demanding like what is true of the Lord. 806 00:35:29,210 --> 00:35:31,254 What is true in His Word? 807 00:35:31,254 --> 00:35:32,421 How do I how do. 808 00:35:32,421 --> 00:35:34,465 I apply this counsel to my life? 809 00:35:34,465 --> 00:35:37,009 And that takes wisdom to do, and that wisdom is. Only. 810 00:35:37,969 --> 00:35:39,720 A book of Proverbs tells us is. 811 00:35:39,720 --> 00:35:40,596 Like we. 812 00:35:40,596 --> 00:35:43,015 We wait daily in his gates. We meditate on his. 813 00:35:43,015 --> 00:35:45,226 You know, we go over to Psalms in 119. 814 00:35:45,226 --> 00:35:47,019 We meditate on his law. Day and night. Right. 815 00:35:47,019 --> 00:35:48,563 That's the it's. 816 00:35:48,563 --> 00:35:52,316 Not meant to be quick, but it is meant to be fruitful. 817 00:35:52,650 --> 00:35:55,653 And so we want to move in that way and. 818 00:35:55,820 --> 00:35:56,904 But also in our. 819 00:35:56,904 --> 00:36:00,366 So discipleship on the one hand, but evangelism on another to. 820 00:36:00,741 --> 00:36:02,702 You know, we live in a world that, you know. 821 00:36:02,702 --> 00:36:06,956 Is increasingly looking at Christians as any number of epithets of. 822 00:36:07,707 --> 00:36:09,959 or in sort. Of insulting terms. 823 00:36:09,959 --> 00:36:10,585 And that's fine. 824 00:36:10,585 --> 00:36:12,170 Christ himself was the. 825 00:36:12,170 --> 00:36:14,130 Victim of much of that. 826 00:36:14,130 --> 00:36:16,007 But the, I think. 827 00:36:16,007 --> 00:36:20,553 The studious mind that that has put in the time to learn. 828 00:36:21,012 --> 00:36:21,512 The truth of the. 829 00:36:21,512 --> 00:36:24,223 Word, how to respond. To, to. 830 00:36:24,223 --> 00:36:26,350 Arguments, to charges, to. 831 00:36:26,350 --> 00:36:27,518 Untruth. 832 00:36:27,518 --> 00:36:30,771 To that the gospel would come clearly in speech. 833 00:36:30,771 --> 00:36:31,022 Right? 834 00:36:31,022 --> 00:36:34,025 Is something that is, is a slow grown. 835 00:36:34,066 --> 00:36:34,984 Tree, if you want to. 836 00:36:34,984 --> 00:36:37,904 Think about it that way. It's not a it's not an instantaneous thing. 837 00:36:37,904 --> 00:36:39,322 You know, I probably can't go to. 838 00:36:39,322 --> 00:36:42,200 Well, I could go to ChatGPT and say. Okay, if. 839 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,410 This argument is made against me, what do I say? 840 00:36:44,410 --> 00:36:48,206 And it might give you some helpful tips, but when the pressure is 841 00:36:48,206 --> 00:36:51,209 on, are you going to be able to recall those instantly? 842 00:36:51,334 --> 00:36:54,420 You know, someone says like, you know, it gives you a charge against scriptures. 843 00:36:54,921 --> 00:36:55,213 know, like. 844 00:36:55,213 --> 00:36:58,466 Hold on, let me pull out my phone and punch it into the LLM for an answer. 845 00:36:58,466 --> 00:36:59,133 Here. 846 00:36:59,133 --> 00:36:59,675 They'd say, like what? 847 00:36:59,675 --> 00:37:00,593 You don't you don't. 848 00:37:00,593 --> 00:37:02,845 Care enough about this to know. 849 00:37:02,845 --> 00:37:04,305 And we want to. 850 00:37:04,305 --> 00:37:05,890 Anticipate and avoid a charge. 851 00:37:05,890 --> 00:37:08,309 Like that, that, you know, the. Lord is important to. 852 00:37:08,309 --> 00:37:11,729 Us enough that we love his Word. 853 00:37:11,729 --> 00:37:13,731 We we love the study. 854 00:37:14,982 --> 00:37:15,524 and I want to. 855 00:37:15,524 --> 00:37:16,567 I guess the last comment I'll. 856 00:37:16,567 --> 00:37:18,569 I'll give is I. 857 00:37:18,569 --> 00:37:21,155 The Holy Spirit is is 858 00:37:21,155 --> 00:37:23,282 so gracious in. That, you know, maybe. 859 00:37:23,282 --> 00:37:26,452 You you hear what I'm saying, and you think, well, I'm not a student. 860 00:37:26,953 --> 00:37:28,371 I don't like studying. 861 00:37:28,371 --> 00:37:29,163 I don't like reading. 862 00:37:29,163 --> 00:37:32,667 I don't like, The the. 863 00:37:32,667 --> 00:37:35,920 Graciousness of the spirit in the word is such that, like. 864 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:37,797 Not, we're not all. Gifted the same way. 865 00:37:37,797 --> 00:37:41,759 I'm a very studious person, but you don't have to be 866 00:37:42,218 --> 00:37:46,764 anything like me to experience the the growth of that studious life. 867 00:37:46,764 --> 00:37:49,600 Right? Maybe, 868 00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:52,103 I’m thinking with our own, within my home church community. 869 00:37:52,103 --> 00:37:54,897 Challenging folks to like. 870 00:37:54,897 --> 00:37:58,317 To busy yourself enough with study and reading. 871 00:37:58,943 --> 00:38:00,653 So that you you have if you. 872 00:38:00,653 --> 00:38:03,614 Have these little like gaps of time during the day. 873 00:38:03,614 --> 00:38:04,573 You you. 874 00:38:04,573 --> 00:38:07,076 Have to fill them with Scripture in order to get done what you're trying to get. 875 00:38:07,076 --> 00:38:07,868 Done. 876 00:38:07,868 --> 00:38:08,077 Right. 877 00:38:08,077 --> 00:38:10,496 Like you're you're involved in this enough 878 00:38:10,496 --> 00:38:12,999 that it keeps bleeding into these little moments. 879 00:38:12,999 --> 00:38:14,041 That you you. 880 00:38:14,041 --> 00:38:16,585 Thought you might have a spare time. Where, you know. 881 00:38:16,585 --> 00:38:20,798 Previously you may have gone to TikTok or to Instagram or some sort of diversion. 882 00:38:21,215 --> 00:38:22,466 It's like, what would. 883 00:38:22,466 --> 00:38:24,635 We take those little moments and put Scripture in. There? 884 00:38:24,635 --> 00:38:26,095 Like, what would. 885 00:38:26,095 --> 00:38:28,014 What would the Lord do with. That? Right. 886 00:38:28,014 --> 00:38:29,223 And yeah, I. 887 00:38:29,223 --> 00:38:32,810 I don't know, but I'm led and I'm led in faith in from the scriptures that. 888 00:38:33,102 --> 00:38:33,477 Like. 889 00:38:33,477 --> 00:38:35,813 He will bless and grow fruit from those things. So. 890 00:38:36,856 --> 00:38:38,399 You know, there is no Christian. 891 00:38:38,399 --> 00:38:41,402 Who is outside of like. 892 00:38:41,610 --> 00:38:45,781 God's promise to engage and to study and to love him with our. 893 00:38:45,781 --> 00:38:47,992 Minds. Right? We're we're all there. 894 00:38:47,992 --> 00:38:49,327 And he. Meets us where we. Are. 895 00:38:49,327 --> 00:38:52,288 You know, he's not going to just because he teaches me something, he doesn't 896 00:38:52,288 --> 00:38:55,708 teach you the same thing at the same pace is kind of irrelevant. 897 00:38:55,958 --> 00:38:56,334 Right? 898 00:38:56,334 --> 00:39:00,254 He's building his church in the way he wants to so we can trust him in it. 899 00:39:01,756 --> 00:39:02,590 Yeah. Yeah. 900 00:39:02,590 --> 00:39:05,593 Thanks for bringing us back to that. 901 00:39:05,843 --> 00:39:08,304 fundamental reminder. 902 00:39:08,304 --> 00:39:11,098 I guess it's easy for us to. 903 00:39:11,098 --> 00:39:11,349 You know, 904 00:39:11,349 --> 00:39:14,727 we hear things about the importance of being in scripture, being in the word. 905 00:39:14,727 --> 00:39:17,605 And it's easy for it to, 906 00:39:17,605 --> 00:39:21,275 get old or slip past us or take it for granted. 907 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,362 And I appreciate you just pushing in, 908 00:39:24,362 --> 00:39:28,199 hopefully helping to re-inspired us, there. 909 00:39:30,493 --> 00:39:33,496 so, yeah, let's wrap that up for the episode. 910 00:39:33,579 --> 00:39:37,708 So, yeah, to our, guests and viewers and listeners, 911 00:39:37,750 --> 00:39:41,545 thanks for joining us for this episode with Ben 912 00:39:41,754 --> 00:39:44,840 and you check out things. 913 00:39:45,091 --> 00:39:49,970 You can find us on YouTube, podcast on our website, anabaptistperspectives.org. 914 00:39:50,679 --> 00:39:53,808 We also do essays in written form, 915 00:39:53,933 --> 00:39:57,686 which you can find as Essays for King Jesus as a podcast. 916 00:39:58,521 --> 00:40:02,483 or again on our website at anabaptistperspectives.org. 917 00:40:02,691 --> 00:40:03,692 Thanks for joining us.