From a theology standpoint,
I think the challenge we we face is
2
00:00:05,005 --> 00:00:08,675
there's the writing in the text that's out
there that these systems learn from.
3
00:00:08,967 --> 00:00:11,845
There's both a combination
of really good theology,
4
00:00:11,845 --> 00:00:14,848
very solid exegesis,
and very poor theology.
5
00:00:15,056 --> 00:00:19,644
And a system like ChatGPT doesn't have
an opinion about what is right or wrong.
6
00:00:19,644 --> 00:00:22,063
And so it's going to learn
from all of these.
7
00:00:22,063 --> 00:00:22,355
and, and.
8
00:00:22,355 --> 00:00:26,192
Maybe even in a very slight sense, begin
to include those ideas
9
00:00:26,609 --> 00:00:27,777
in sermon preparation.
10
00:00:27,777 --> 00:00:28,319
Which.
11
00:00:28,319 --> 00:00:31,114
Is not what you want,
but may come in in a nuanced way.
12
00:00:31,114 --> 00:00:33,074
And so. We just,
13
00:00:33,074 --> 00:00:35,869
we have to know where these,
where our information comes from.
14
00:00:41,291 --> 00:00:44,169
Welcome to
this episode with Anabaptist Perspectives.
15
00:00:44,169 --> 00:00:49,257
Joined by Ben Harris, to explore
questions around AI and studying.
16
00:00:49,883 --> 00:00:52,260
Ben, would you want to just.
17
00:00:52,260 --> 00:00:55,263
Yeah, give us a brief introduction
to yourself before we jump in.
18
00:00:56,222 --> 00:00:56,514
Sure.
19
00:00:56,514 --> 00:00:58,558
Good morning. Marlin.
Good to be with you. so.
20
00:00:58,558 --> 00:00:59,559
My name is Ben Harris.
21
00:00:59,559 --> 00:01:03,021
I'm a professor at Sattler
College up in Boston, Massachusetts.
22
00:01:03,396 --> 00:01:07,192
I run the business program up here,
but my background goes through the world
23
00:01:07,192 --> 00:01:10,195
of engineering and artificial intelligence
and machine learning.
24
00:01:10,195 --> 00:01:12,989
so I've spent.
25
00:01:12,989 --> 00:01:16,493
More than a decade in the tech sector,
before jumping into academia.
26
00:01:16,534 --> 00:01:19,287
So now I'm a teacher full time. But.
27
00:01:19,287 --> 00:01:22,624
I do my best to keep fingers in the,
the technical world.
28
00:01:22,624 --> 00:01:25,502
Things that are developing, especially
with AI turning out the way it is.
29
00:01:26,669 --> 00:01:27,045
Yeah.
30
00:01:27,045 --> 00:01:28,671
And we may get a chance to talk about
31
00:01:28,671 --> 00:01:32,133
some of the technical stuff,
but we're actually focusing a little more
32
00:01:32,133 --> 00:01:36,304
on the teacher side
or study side of things for this episode.
33
00:01:37,013 --> 00:01:39,974
so maybe to jump into this issue with,
34
00:01:39,974 --> 00:01:42,685
you know, thinking about AI and studying.
35
00:01:42,685 --> 00:01:44,104
imagine a scenario.
36
00:01:44,104 --> 00:01:47,607
I think I heard you bring it up
in another podcast, but you've got,
37
00:01:48,650 --> 00:01:50,693
go to church Sunday morning.
38
00:01:50,693 --> 00:01:53,154
Preacher seems to have a smooth sermon.
39
00:01:53,154 --> 00:01:54,739
Points are good.
40
00:01:54,739 --> 00:01:57,742
You know, he's
got some cultural background.
41
00:01:57,784 --> 00:02:00,787
He can even talk about
a few original language words.
42
00:02:01,913 --> 00:02:03,581
And then you'll learn.
43
00:02:03,581 --> 00:02:07,043
Oh, turns out all the key points came
from asking
44
00:02:07,043 --> 00:02:11,339
copilot or ChatGPT or somebody like that.
45
00:02:11,339 --> 00:02:13,424
to generate an outline.
46
00:02:13,424 --> 00:02:14,676
what's wrong with this scenario?
47
00:02:14,676 --> 00:02:16,219
Or why does something feel off
48
00:02:17,512 --> 00:02:20,306
in a scenario like that?
49
00:02:20,306 --> 00:02:22,433
So in a in a statement
or two, I'd say it's
50
00:02:22,433 --> 00:02:25,895
because we have gaps in our understanding
of where that information comes from.
51
00:02:26,062 --> 00:02:26,771
We have to think about
52
00:02:26,771 --> 00:02:30,567
how these these tools, as new as they are,
how they're how they're built,
53
00:02:30,567 --> 00:02:33,611
how they learn effectively,
how they're what they're trained on.
54
00:02:34,070 --> 00:02:38,199
I was listening to, just a podcast
the other day in Tech World, and,
55
00:02:38,575 --> 00:02:42,579
the podcast host
noticed his reputation in the world of,
56
00:02:42,996 --> 00:02:45,665
artificial intelligence
was not very good.
57
00:02:45,665 --> 00:02:49,169
And so he set out to repair it,
and it was able to within a day or two,
58
00:02:49,460 --> 00:02:52,463
change
how a systems like ChatGPT or others.
59
00:02:52,672 --> 00:02:54,257
Thought of him.
60
00:02:54,257 --> 00:02:55,550
and I said, oh, well, that's good for him.
61
00:02:55,550 --> 00:02:57,051
But if our.
62
00:02:57,051 --> 00:03:00,638
If our hope in something
like sermon preparation or study,
63
00:03:01,389 --> 00:03:03,641
relies on,
64
00:03:03,641 --> 00:03:08,271
on precision exegesis and illumination
of the scriptures, and we're missing
65
00:03:08,938 --> 00:03:11,733
we're missing the layers
in which we're getting our information
66
00:03:11,733 --> 00:03:15,403
to present to a congregation that I think
that's where we start to feel.
67
00:03:15,403 --> 00:03:17,238
I'm not so sure about this.
68
00:03:17,238 --> 00:03:20,158
Because it, We don't get to see
all the intermediate steps.
69
00:03:20,158 --> 00:03:23,161
We don't know how ChatGPT develops.
70
00:03:23,369 --> 00:03:24,454
it's it's outputs.
71
00:03:24,454 --> 00:03:26,998
You can get wildly different outputs
with very slight changes
72
00:03:26,998 --> 00:03:29,292
in, in the prompts of the questions
that you ask.
73
00:03:29,292 --> 00:03:31,336
And so, there's a
74
00:03:32,420 --> 00:03:32,795
I don't want
75
00:03:32,795 --> 00:03:35,798
to over, I don't want to use the term
black box glibly.
76
00:03:35,798 --> 00:03:39,093
But it, There's definitely black box
behavior going on here.
77
00:03:39,093 --> 00:03:42,430
So it leads to just like, it
should lead us to questions, to curiosity.
78
00:03:43,514 --> 00:03:47,518
You don't know what's going on inside
the black box where it's coming from.
79
00:03:48,061 --> 00:03:49,437
So how did he change his reputation?
80
00:03:49,437 --> 00:03:52,357
Just update his own website
and put new language on there
81
00:03:52,357 --> 00:03:55,985
about himself
that ChatGPT picked up, or what?
82
00:03:56,903 --> 00:03:58,154
You hit it right on the head.
83
00:03:58,154 --> 00:03:59,280
That's exactly what he did.
84
00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:03,201
He went in the background of his website,
and, he had spoken with some
85
00:04:03,201 --> 00:04:05,828
AI researchers and said,
how can I improve this?
86
00:04:05,828 --> 00:04:07,956
And they gave him
these little blips of code
87
00:04:07,956 --> 00:04:09,874
that he inserted
into the back of his website
88
00:04:09,874 --> 00:04:13,628
that the the engines would then
pick up on and change his perspective.
89
00:04:14,963 --> 00:04:15,380
From a,
90
00:04:15,380 --> 00:04:19,175
from a theology standpoint,
I think the challenge we we face is
91
00:04:19,175 --> 00:04:22,845
there's the writing in the text that's out
there that these systems learn from.
92
00:04:23,137 --> 00:04:26,015
There's both a combination
of really good theology,
93
00:04:26,015 --> 00:04:29,018
very solid exegesis,
and very poor theology.
94
00:04:29,227 --> 00:04:33,815
And a system like ChatGPT doesn't have
an opinion about what is right or wrong.
95
00:04:33,815 --> 00:04:36,818
And so it's going to learn
from all of these.
96
00:04:36,818 --> 00:04:37,360
and, and.
97
00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:41,197
Maybe even in a very slight sense, begin
to include those ideas
98
00:04:41,614 --> 00:04:42,782
in sermon preparation.
99
00:04:42,782 --> 00:04:43,324
Which.
100
00:04:43,324 --> 00:04:46,119
Is not what you want,
but may come in in a nuanced way.
101
00:04:46,119 --> 00:04:48,079
And so. We just we we.
102
00:04:48,079 --> 00:04:51,082
Have to know where these
where information comes from.
103
00:04:52,083 --> 00:04:52,333
Yeah.
104
00:04:52,333 --> 00:04:54,877
I mean, that reminds me some of the stuff
I was playing with. Just,
105
00:04:56,004 --> 00:04:59,007
you know, asking one of these engines
about,
106
00:04:59,382 --> 00:05:03,344
another organization,
where I work, and it just
107
00:05:05,179 --> 00:05:07,807
it picked up, you know, the stuff
we had in our website.
108
00:05:07,807 --> 00:05:10,810
Stuff on our statement. Fed it back to us.
109
00:05:10,810 --> 00:05:13,813
And there wasn't a lot of other
information out there they could pick up,
110
00:05:14,063 --> 00:05:16,482
as a search engine.
111
00:05:16,482 --> 00:05:18,192
and then,
112
00:05:18,192 --> 00:05:21,946
you know, that organization is connected
to, to Christian missions.
113
00:05:21,946 --> 00:05:24,949
And so I start just asking it questions
and so on.
114
00:05:25,283 --> 00:05:28,244
And yeah, it starts picking up the stuff
that.
115
00:05:29,537 --> 00:05:30,913
You know,
116
00:05:30,913 --> 00:05:35,209
kind of the missiology circles
that we might be familiar with starts
117
00:05:35,209 --> 00:05:38,212
picking up that lingo and spitting it
back, even though it doesn't have
118
00:05:39,464 --> 00:05:41,841
obviously, it doesn't have any of those,
119
00:05:41,841 --> 00:05:44,844
convictions.
120
00:05:44,844 --> 00:05:46,137
It just brings us to another.
121
00:05:46,137 --> 00:05:46,929
Another.
122
00:05:46,929 --> 00:05:49,849
I guess limitation of all
this is that. You know, any.
123
00:05:51,392 --> 00:05:52,310
Any of these systems
124
00:05:52,310 --> 00:05:55,313
are limited
by what we're calling the indexed web.
125
00:05:55,355 --> 00:05:57,815
essentially anything
a search engine can access.
126
00:05:57,815 --> 00:06:02,737
So it has to be indexed for Google, but
Google can at any time de-index something.
127
00:06:03,446 --> 00:06:05,281
So something won't show up
in its search results.
128
00:06:05,281 --> 00:06:06,240
And they do that all the time.
129
00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:09,327
They do it with Offensive
or hate or violent speech.
130
00:06:09,744 --> 00:06:12,497
They don't want it to show up
in their search results.
131
00:06:12,497 --> 00:06:15,124
So, you know,
any company is able to do this.
132
00:06:15,124 --> 00:06:18,419
Anything that is an arbiter of web
traffic can exclude things,
133
00:06:18,669 --> 00:06:21,756
and then those things will no longer
show up in an LLM’s learning.
134
00:06:22,507 --> 00:06:23,091
archetype.
135
00:06:23,091 --> 00:06:26,052
It just won't learn anything from it. So.
136
00:06:26,052 --> 00:06:27,595
You know, it's. Not that.
137
00:06:27,595 --> 00:06:30,598
We treat these LLMs
as compendiums of truth.
138
00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:32,058
And they are far from it, right?
139
00:06:32,058 --> 00:06:34,060
They they can only get what they find.
140
00:06:36,145 --> 00:06:38,189
So, given that
141
00:06:38,189 --> 00:06:42,360
and just to push into the sermon thing
a little bit, is there a proper place
142
00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:45,363
for using one of these large language
models?
143
00:06:47,782 --> 00:06:49,409
In that context,
144
00:06:49,409 --> 00:06:52,412
sermon or devotional at church
or anything like that?
145
00:06:53,579 --> 00:06:57,083
I’d say, there is there, we, I'm.
146
00:06:57,083 --> 00:06:59,085
Comfortable using it for really
what it's good.
147
00:06:59,085 --> 00:07:00,294
For, right?
148
00:07:00,294 --> 00:07:04,841
These LMS take a huge amount of text,
and they they're trained to develop
149
00:07:05,883 --> 00:07:08,553
writing styles
that are effective and clear and succinct.
150
00:07:08,553 --> 00:07:09,387
And so.
151
00:07:09,387 --> 00:07:11,013
You know, if, if I've sort.
152
00:07:11,013 --> 00:07:14,851
Of transcribed a good bit of a sermon down
and I'd like ChatGPT to help me.
153
00:07:15,059 --> 00:07:15,309
Like.
154
00:07:15,309 --> 00:07:18,980
Clean it up a bit, ask any,
any questions of me about the sermon.
155
00:07:19,730 --> 00:07:20,189
it can.
156
00:07:20,189 --> 00:07:22,150
ChatGPT can play the role of a congregant.
157
00:07:22,150 --> 00:07:23,985
Who might have. Questions.
158
00:07:23,985 --> 00:07:25,278
and that's the end.
159
00:07:25,278 --> 00:07:28,281
But then it's my responsibility
to ensure that the.
160
00:07:28,364 --> 00:07:30,408
The sermon and, and the.
161
00:07:30,408 --> 00:07:32,493
Information
that gets preached is still accurate.
162
00:07:32,493 --> 00:07:36,080
So I've not asked ChatGPT
to have a theological opinion or view.
163
00:07:36,330 --> 00:07:39,584
I've asked it to simulate
and test me as a, as a teacher.
164
00:07:39,584 --> 00:07:41,627
And I think that's a. Good,
a good use of it.
165
00:07:41,627 --> 00:07:43,087
That doesn't.
166
00:07:43,087 --> 00:07:45,256
That doesn't ring foul of using something.
167
00:07:45,256 --> 00:07:45,882
Inappropriately.
168
00:07:46,966 --> 00:07:48,050
It's your way of putting it
169
00:07:48,050 --> 00:07:51,053
in its place as a tool.
170
00:07:51,971 --> 00:07:53,514
Which was my final question.
171
00:07:53,514 --> 00:07:57,643
We will move on from sermons to lots of
other areas of life here in a bit. But,
172
00:07:59,437 --> 00:08:01,314
you know, I remember
173
00:08:01,314 --> 00:08:03,566
especially when I was young,
174
00:08:03,566 --> 00:08:06,152
somebody would have,
a devotional or something.
175
00:08:06,152 --> 00:08:09,155
It'd be a topic
176
00:08:09,489 --> 00:08:12,450
and they'd say, this, this topic
or this word is talked about,
177
00:08:12,492 --> 00:08:15,495
you know, this place,
and they'd list through
178
00:08:15,995 --> 00:08:18,998
five places in the Scripture
or ten or whatever.
179
00:08:20,500 --> 00:08:23,044
And I remember,
180
00:08:23,044 --> 00:08:25,546
I don't know if I asked my dad
how people get this or what,
181
00:08:25,546 --> 00:08:26,589
but very young, I remember him
182
00:08:26,589 --> 00:08:29,634
saying, well, they used a concordance,
and that's how they found the list.
183
00:08:30,635 --> 00:08:33,638
Obviously we got more powerful tools
than the Strong's Concordance,
184
00:08:33,638 --> 00:08:36,974
which was a big paper book,
that somebody pulled out for prep.
185
00:08:39,060 --> 00:08:40,728
but how different is this?
186
00:08:40,728 --> 00:08:44,023
Is it different in principle,
or is it just we're dealing
187
00:08:44,023 --> 00:08:48,027
with a more sophisticated tool
or less sophisticated tool as it may be.
188
00:08:49,695 --> 00:08:53,115
I’d say something like Strongs, And I have
an affection for Strong's Concordance.
189
00:08:53,115 --> 00:08:55,243
Because I have two of them on my shelf
in my office, at.
190
00:08:55,243 --> 00:08:58,621
My home, and, but they, you know, from.
191
00:08:58,621 --> 00:09:02,875
From an LLM perspective, the the data
that's contained in something like
192
00:09:02,875 --> 00:09:07,171
a concordance is just is one data point
that gets added and trained into.
193
00:09:07,171 --> 00:09:08,005
The model.
194
00:09:08,005 --> 00:09:09,298
So we use it as a, you.
195
00:09:09,298 --> 00:09:11,384
Know, our. In our linear
thinking processes.
196
00:09:11,384 --> 00:09:15,596
We use it to sort of trace a word through
Scripture and find meaning and nuance.
197
00:09:17,014 --> 00:09:19,225
an LLM Will take it very.
198
00:09:19,225 --> 00:09:20,226
Differently.
199
00:09:20,226 --> 00:09:20,393
Right.
200
00:09:20,393 --> 00:09:23,312
It'll, it'll in input that information.
201
00:09:23,312 --> 00:09:26,857
and it, it won't it can't.
202
00:09:26,857 --> 00:09:29,277
It doesn't know
the intent of the reader. Right.
203
00:09:29,277 --> 00:09:32,405
So it an LLM doesn't, you know,
if you're looking for the word faith
204
00:09:32,530 --> 00:09:36,659
throughout the scriptures,
an LLM can't, can't intuit exactly
205
00:09:36,659 --> 00:09:39,829
where you're going, the connections that
the Holy Spirit's illuminating in you.
206
00:09:40,121 --> 00:09:41,789
It'll just give you a sort of a
207
00:09:42,790 --> 00:09:43,416
I don't want to say
208
00:09:43,416 --> 00:09:46,627
word vomit,
but it'll just it'll explode data
209
00:09:46,627 --> 00:09:49,797
in front of you without making connections
because it's not smart enough.
210
00:09:49,839 --> 00:09:52,842
Right. It it is trained on what it knows.
211
00:09:52,883 --> 00:09:53,259
and it'll.
212
00:09:53,259 --> 00:09:54,468
Give you what it thinks is correct.
213
00:09:54,468 --> 00:09:56,262
But it's a probabilistic guess.
214
00:09:56,262 --> 00:09:56,929
That's the.
215
00:09:56,929 --> 00:09:58,472
Best these things can do.
216
00:09:58,472 --> 00:10:00,391
Is they they take a.
217
00:10:00,391 --> 00:10:03,102
They say,
what's the most likely correct answer?
218
00:10:03,102 --> 00:10:03,477
You just give.
219
00:10:03,477 --> 00:10:06,480
That and then it and then it moves on.
220
00:10:07,315 --> 00:10:08,566
I don't know, word vomit.
221
00:10:08,566 --> 00:10:10,359
Doesn't sound like too bad of a term.
222
00:10:10,359 --> 00:10:13,362
Sometimes I can resonate with that,
223
00:10:14,405 --> 00:10:17,241
depending what the examples are.
224
00:10:17,241 --> 00:10:18,075
Yeah. Okay.
225
00:10:18,075 --> 00:10:21,329
Let's think about more broadly,
you know, this question
226
00:10:21,329 --> 00:10:24,332
of, of study and
227
00:10:24,915 --> 00:10:26,584
how do we value study there?
228
00:10:26,584 --> 00:10:29,587
We talked about,
you know, sermons or devotionals.
229
00:10:30,087 --> 00:10:31,464
obviously you're an educator.
230
00:10:31,464 --> 00:10:33,507
We'll get to a classroom context.
231
00:10:33,507 --> 00:10:37,428
but maybe first just yeah,
help us think about that more broadly.
232
00:10:38,179 --> 00:10:39,764
Going to work. Family,
233
00:10:42,350 --> 00:10:43,726
being the congregant,
234
00:10:43,726 --> 00:10:46,729
listening to the sermon, whatever.
235
00:10:47,063 --> 00:10:49,398
yeah. Realm of study.
236
00:10:49,398 --> 00:10:51,776
So I think that. AI has really.
237
00:10:51,776 --> 00:10:52,943
There's a temptation here.
238
00:10:52,943 --> 00:10:56,030
In that our, Artificial
239
00:10:56,030 --> 00:10:59,033
intelligence systems,
way back in their genesis,
240
00:10:59,492 --> 00:11:03,913
were constructed to simulate how the human
brain actually works and functions.
241
00:11:03,913 --> 00:11:07,208
What we know about the networks
that that our minds are created of.
242
00:11:07,792 --> 00:11:12,922
And the temptation, I think I would
I would phrase it this way, is
243
00:11:12,922 --> 00:11:16,967
to outsource the responsibility to train
and to think correctly.
244
00:11:17,426 --> 00:11:17,802
Right?
245
00:11:17,802 --> 00:11:18,594
Because when we're
246
00:11:18,594 --> 00:11:21,597
when we're studying, when we go in
and we do the difficult labor,
247
00:11:21,722 --> 00:11:24,266
that's what study is.
It should be laborious.
248
00:11:24,266 --> 00:11:27,269
If you're finding something challenging,
you're actually probably learning.
249
00:11:27,853 --> 00:11:30,022
and that's a good thing.
We should be comfortable with that.
250
00:11:30,022 --> 00:11:32,900
But what it's doing is it's you're it's
training connections in your.
251
00:11:32,900 --> 00:11:36,237
Brain to more. Easily allow.
252
00:11:37,321 --> 00:11:37,655
Literal.
253
00:11:37,655 --> 00:11:40,324
Electricity
to flow between synapses in the mind.
254
00:11:40,324 --> 00:11:43,703
And so that's a, that is a physical analog
255
00:11:43,703 --> 00:11:47,164
to exactly what ChatGPT does
in the background of ChatGPT.
256
00:11:47,289 --> 00:11:51,460
The architecture has a, a network
construction, and it's training itself
257
00:11:51,460 --> 00:11:54,463
to, to discern right from wrong,
just like your brain would.
258
00:11:54,463 --> 00:11:58,843
So I think we would
we would never want to educate or instruct
259
00:11:58,843 --> 00:12:02,138
our children to just outsource
260
00:12:02,138 --> 00:12:05,683
the responsibility to think correctly
and clearly to something else.
261
00:12:05,683 --> 00:12:07,601
We'd never want to give that away.
262
00:12:07,601 --> 00:12:08,227
And but the.
263
00:12:08,227 --> 00:12:10,938
Temptation for us as adults is to say,
well,
264
00:12:10,938 --> 00:12:13,524
you know,
because the the study is difficult.
265
00:12:13,524 --> 00:12:14,650
Right? I want to I want to.
266
00:12:14,650 --> 00:12:17,903
I'll just have ChatGPT do it
and it probably starts very small.
267
00:12:17,903 --> 00:12:20,573
Right. It starts in little examples.
268
00:12:20,573 --> 00:12:21,824
but we.
269
00:12:21,824 --> 00:12:25,494
I think our charge as Christians is
to be on guard against doing this right.
270
00:12:25,494 --> 00:12:27,455
Because when it, you know,
when our when our witness
271
00:12:27,455 --> 00:12:30,458
is called to the test in evangelism
or another context,
272
00:12:30,541 --> 00:12:33,544
we may not have ChatGPT there
to lean on as a crutch, right?
273
00:12:33,544 --> 00:12:36,547
Our, our. Actual trained mind is now.
274
00:12:36,922 --> 00:12:38,132
You know, on on test.
275
00:12:38,132 --> 00:12:41,093
And how are we going to to do
with what's in front of us?
276
00:12:43,345 --> 00:12:43,512
Yeah.
277
00:12:43,512 --> 00:12:46,515
And I like how you highlighted
that. There.
278
00:12:46,557 --> 00:12:49,560
You know,
if we’re educating our fourth graders.
279
00:12:49,560 --> 00:12:52,730
And we don't teach them
how to work through
280
00:12:53,731 --> 00:12:57,526
the math problems or how to understand
things in mathematics.
281
00:12:57,526 --> 00:13:00,529
And we say, hey, just look up the answer,
282
00:13:02,072 --> 00:13:02,406
okay?
283
00:13:02,406 --> 00:13:05,326
We know there's a problem there, right?
284
00:13:05,326 --> 00:13:08,162
But I hear you saying, well, for adults
it's more of a temptation
285
00:13:08,162 --> 00:13:11,791
to think we can skip the study
because we got that in
286
00:13:12,708 --> 00:13:17,338
in fourth grade
or we did that in high school
287
00:13:17,338 --> 00:13:20,841
or college or Bible school or whatever,
and kind of coast.
288
00:13:22,259 --> 00:13:25,596
But I think as the years go by, we're,
our responsibility is to.
289
00:13:25,846 --> 00:13:27,389
You know.
290
00:13:27,389 --> 00:13:31,936
I think the church needs clear minds
and for our entire lives.
291
00:13:32,061 --> 00:13:32,269
Right?
292
00:13:32,269 --> 00:13:36,982
So, you know, as these things grow
and become more and more accessible,
293
00:13:37,942 --> 00:13:41,153
I would I would
exhort all to not don't give that away.
294
00:13:41,153 --> 00:13:44,365
That's a precious thing that the Lord has
given you to train and to build in you.
295
00:13:44,740 --> 00:13:47,743
And don't
put. It in the hands of a company
296
00:13:47,785 --> 00:13:49,411
that doesn't
have your best interest in mind.
297
00:13:49,411 --> 00:13:51,580
It doesn't have the kingdom interest
in mind. Right?
298
00:13:51,580 --> 00:13:52,915
I think that's a grave error.
299
00:13:52,915 --> 00:13:55,459
That we would make.
300
00:13:55,459 --> 00:13:55,793
yeah.
301
00:13:55,793 --> 00:13:58,921
I mean, I really like your point
there about it just shaping us.
302
00:13:59,129 --> 00:14:02,383
You know, we're doing the doing
the mental work on it,
303
00:14:02,550 --> 00:14:06,178
and if we get to understanding,
it's actually
304
00:14:06,804 --> 00:14:09,807
shaping our mind,
shaping our brain as well.
305
00:14:10,474 --> 00:14:13,227
in the development.
306
00:14:13,227 --> 00:14:14,228
So, yeah.
307
00:14:14,228 --> 00:14:17,231
How do you approach it in the classroom
as I'm thinking about it?
308
00:14:17,356 --> 00:14:19,358
I think from a couple angles.
309
00:14:19,358 --> 00:14:20,901
One is everybody's worried about,
310
00:14:22,069 --> 00:14:23,571
you know, how do we test people now?
311
00:14:23,571 --> 00:14:25,781
How do we deal with cheating?
312
00:14:25,781 --> 00:14:28,284
How do we make sure they actually
are doing the work with the material?
313
00:14:28,284 --> 00:14:31,662
If the things we used to use,
like a well-written paper,
314
00:14:32,913 --> 00:14:35,124
can be so easily faked or whatever.
315
00:14:35,124 --> 00:14:38,085
that's one angle.
316
00:14:38,085 --> 00:14:39,962
yeah, let's start there.
317
00:14:39,962 --> 00:14:42,965
Assessment or getting students
to do the work or whatever.
318
00:14:44,133 --> 00:14:47,803
the classroom is is certainly that first
line of, first
319
00:14:47,803 --> 00:14:51,724
line of combat that you run into with,
you know, AI versus classical learning.
320
00:14:51,724 --> 00:14:54,476
And so.
321
00:14:54,476 --> 00:14:57,980
I've heard a number of,
Approaches to this.
322
00:14:57,980 --> 00:15:00,190
The, you know, they start within,
you know.
323
00:15:00,190 --> 00:15:02,776
We can't get. Away from the technology
in the classroom that's coming.
324
00:15:02,776 --> 00:15:06,906
And so most colleges, including Statler,
where I teach, uses a learning management
325
00:15:06,906 --> 00:15:12,202
system or an LMS to do to keep track
of all sorts of assignments and grades.
326
00:15:12,453 --> 00:15:13,579
It's very. Helpful.
327
00:15:13,579 --> 00:15:15,039
And they most of them.
328
00:15:15,039 --> 00:15:18,250
Purport to include an AI detection system.
329
00:15:18,250 --> 00:15:22,004
They'll they'll say,
we have a built in, plagiarism detector.
330
00:15:22,004 --> 00:15:23,130
That, you know, if an AI.
331
00:15:23,130 --> 00:15:27,051
Written something comes in, we'll flag it
and we'll tell you that is a.
332
00:15:27,593 --> 00:15:28,052
I think we've.
333
00:15:28,052 --> 00:15:31,263
Seen it over and over again
in the statistics that that is kind of. A,
334
00:15:33,015 --> 00:15:33,390
It's very
335
00:15:33,390 --> 00:15:36,393
much a cat and mouse kind of game
because the, the,
336
00:15:37,144 --> 00:15:41,231
the system may catch a certain kind of
AI written content, but the AI systems
337
00:15:41,231 --> 00:15:45,110
will then evolve to get around the,
the hunters essentially.
338
00:15:45,235 --> 00:15:48,238
So then the hunters become a little more
sophisticated than the systems do.
339
00:15:48,238 --> 00:15:51,241
And so it's this back and forth. That.
340
00:15:51,533 --> 00:15:54,662
Frankly, I just I don't want
to get involved in with my students.
341
00:15:55,162 --> 00:15:59,333
So. You know, I don't want to, you know,
I don't want that to be the worry that.
342
00:15:59,333 --> 00:16:05,005
The, And so my, my encouragement to them
is like one operate with integrity.
343
00:16:05,005 --> 00:16:06,382
I tell them on day one.
344
00:16:06,382 --> 00:16:07,675
If you like.
345
00:16:07,675 --> 00:16:10,135
Here's what you can use AI for.
346
00:16:10,135 --> 00:16:11,553
I'm. Sure you've all been exposed to it.
347
00:16:11,553 --> 00:16:12,596
You can use this.
348
00:16:12,596 --> 00:16:15,808
I said, but if you're if there's
a temptation to use it in a way that's
349
00:16:16,350 --> 00:16:19,269
outside of that, come talk to me. Right.
350
00:16:19,269 --> 00:16:20,187
I would rather.
351
00:16:20,187 --> 00:16:22,314
My job here is to make you successful
and to help.
352
00:16:22,314 --> 00:16:24,483
And so please engage with me.
353
00:16:24,483 --> 00:16:26,110
I'll help you get started so you can.
354
00:16:26,110 --> 00:16:28,946
You know. It's very much. Like.
355
00:16:28,946 --> 00:16:32,074
Accountability and discipleship
within the congregation of a local church.
356
00:16:32,074 --> 00:16:33,325
Community. Like don't
357
00:16:34,410 --> 00:16:37,121
you know, just be open and frank with
what's going on.
358
00:16:37,121 --> 00:16:39,498
My goal here is to help you.
359
00:16:39,498 --> 00:16:43,460
But within the classroom
itself, I, I these days
360
00:16:44,461 --> 00:16:46,797
have pushed.
361
00:16:46,797 --> 00:16:51,176
Assignments that might have an
I inclusion temptation off to the side.
362
00:16:51,176 --> 00:16:54,138
I have a lot more students
doing oral presentations.
363
00:16:54,138 --> 00:16:56,557
I sort of gone back to the classic
rhetoric.
364
00:16:56,557 --> 00:16:58,475
Hey, here's this, here's
this case we're studying.
365
00:16:58,475 --> 00:17:00,019
Here's this conclusion.
366
00:17:00,019 --> 00:17:02,229
I have a conversation with. Me about it.
367
00:17:02,229 --> 00:17:02,479
Right.
368
00:17:02,479 --> 00:17:04,940
Show me that you know what's going on.
369
00:17:04,940 --> 00:17:05,691
you know.
370
00:17:05,691 --> 00:17:08,527
We've gone back to pencil and paper
examinations.
371
00:17:08,527 --> 00:17:09,445
Right? Which, you know.
372
00:17:09,445 --> 00:17:10,738
Teachers would love the efficiency
373
00:17:10,738 --> 00:17:13,699
of a digital exam
that the system can grade for you.
374
00:17:13,782 --> 00:17:15,868
But it's also open to manipulation.
375
00:17:15,868 --> 00:17:16,618
And so.
376
00:17:16,618 --> 00:17:16,952
You know, if you're.
377
00:17:16,952 --> 00:17:18,996
Going to take a statistics
quiz with me, it's going to be
378
00:17:18,996 --> 00:17:20,122
it's going to be pencil and paper.
379
00:17:21,290 --> 00:17:21,915
and that's.
380
00:17:21,915 --> 00:17:25,461
That's fine, I will I will gladly shoulder
the little bit of extra grading burden.
381
00:17:25,919 --> 00:17:27,087
To know that.
382
00:17:27,087 --> 00:17:28,964
This is, this is really what you know.
383
00:17:28,964 --> 00:17:29,757
And then to help you.
384
00:17:29,757 --> 00:17:32,634
Along the way.
385
00:17:32,634 --> 00:17:34,136
So I'm hearing you.
386
00:17:34,136 --> 00:17:35,137
Hearing you do two things.
387
00:17:35,137 --> 00:17:37,347
One is trying to
388
00:17:37,347 --> 00:17:40,309
build trust and integrity
and know your students
389
00:17:40,309 --> 00:17:43,312
and the other one is,
390
00:17:44,605 --> 00:17:47,608
you know, being savvy about it
and removing
391
00:17:47,608 --> 00:17:50,569
some of those temptations
and opportunities a little bit.
392
00:17:51,111 --> 00:17:53,781
So I've been out of the
393
00:17:53,781 --> 00:17:56,784
out of the university world for,
394
00:17:57,576 --> 00:18:00,537
like seven years or so now.
395
00:18:00,746 --> 00:18:02,331
Yeah.
I can't imagine how they deal with it.
396
00:18:02,331 --> 00:18:05,501
In some of the classes classes I used
to help with as a TA, you might have,
397
00:18:06,418 --> 00:18:09,421
you know, a couple
hundred students in the class and then
398
00:18:09,505 --> 00:18:12,633
got 25 students assigned
for each teaching assistant or something,
399
00:18:13,550 --> 00:18:17,179
and, you know,
writing assignments uploaded through
400
00:18:18,347 --> 00:18:19,348
exactly that,
401
00:18:19,348 --> 00:18:22,309
one of those learning management systems.
402
00:18:23,602 --> 00:18:24,311
yeah.
403
00:18:24,311 --> 00:18:27,314
With no relationship there in that volume.
404
00:18:28,941 --> 00:18:31,693
It feels like
you're fighting a losing game, but
405
00:18:31,693 --> 00:18:34,696
so maybe if anything,
it just calls us back to,
406
00:18:34,988 --> 00:18:36,406
you know,
407
00:18:36,406 --> 00:18:39,409
actually
closer relationships and education and
408
00:18:40,619 --> 00:18:43,622
things like oral exams.
409
00:18:43,622 --> 00:18:45,541
I think you hit on one of the key
points in.
410
00:18:45,541 --> 00:18:47,167
That the the.
411
00:18:47,167 --> 00:18:47,793
You have to imagine
412
00:18:47,793 --> 00:18:51,088
how sort of higher education has evolved
over the years that it's.
413
00:18:51,672 --> 00:18:54,341
It's moved away from the small.
414
00:18:54,341 --> 00:18:57,052
I don't remember the, the Oxford model,
I believe they called it.
415
00:18:57,052 --> 00:19:00,472
But the conference room table
with an instructor and then conversation.
416
00:19:01,140 --> 00:19:02,266
And we've. Moved far from that.
417
00:19:02,266 --> 00:19:03,934
But that has been. The.
418
00:19:03,934 --> 00:19:07,479
That has been the trajectory
as the incentives for colleges
419
00:19:07,479 --> 00:19:10,524
have been to grow endowment
and student population.
420
00:19:10,899 --> 00:19:13,902
And so they you know,
I have to imagine 100 years ago,
421
00:19:14,111 --> 00:19:17,072
the idea of a 300 person classroom
with a single instructor
422
00:19:17,072 --> 00:19:21,034
and a coterie of TAs to help
would have been unthinkable to.
423
00:19:21,034 --> 00:19:23,162
A, Elite university.
424
00:19:23,162 --> 00:19:24,872
But now it's commonplace. And so
425
00:19:26,039 --> 00:19:27,416
universities.
426
00:19:27,416 --> 00:19:28,083
You know.
427
00:19:28,083 --> 00:19:32,337
Take advantage from a cost basis
on the efficiency of doing it that way.
428
00:19:32,337 --> 00:19:33,297
There's, you know, it's
429
00:19:33,297 --> 00:19:36,967
very efficient to get the information
out there from one expert to 300 students.
430
00:19:37,384 --> 00:19:40,387
And then have. A team to support.
431
00:19:40,470 --> 00:19:43,807
But you to your point, you lose the.
432
00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:47,603
Sort of any relational knowledge
between instructor and student,
433
00:19:47,936 --> 00:19:50,898
as well as how to, you know,
individually tailor learning outcomes.
434
00:19:50,898 --> 00:19:51,773
Right?
435
00:19:51,773 --> 00:19:52,733
It's just not reasonable
436
00:19:52,733 --> 00:19:56,361
to expect an instructor
in that context to know every student.
437
00:19:56,361 --> 00:19:57,696
What's their different learning style?
438
00:19:57,696 --> 00:19:58,864
What are their career goals?
439
00:19:58,864 --> 00:20:01,867
How do you help them along that road? Now?
440
00:20:02,159 --> 00:20:06,246
I'm not suggesting that large universities
are in and of themselves wrong.
441
00:20:06,747 --> 00:20:08,665
But I think we have to just.
442
00:20:08,665 --> 00:20:12,711
Honestly assess where where is
the incentive for these institutions.
443
00:20:12,711 --> 00:20:13,045
Right.
444
00:20:13,045 --> 00:20:17,007
They how do they, consider themselves
as doing better or worse?
445
00:20:17,466 --> 00:20:18,050
And so,
446
00:20:18,050 --> 00:20:21,345
you know, Sattler, where I teach happens
to be a small, fairly new institution.
447
00:20:21,845 --> 00:20:22,512
And so we have that
448
00:20:22,512 --> 00:20:26,350
we have that advantage of sitting
in this small class space for now.
449
00:20:26,892 --> 00:20:29,144
but we're going to face
the same pressures at some point.
450
00:20:29,144 --> 00:20:30,062
Is the.
451
00:20:30,062 --> 00:20:33,523
Pressure might be like grow without bound
and do whatever it takes to do.
452
00:20:33,523 --> 00:20:35,484
That. But my hope is that the.
453
00:20:35,484 --> 00:20:39,738
This institution will resist it in favor
of knowing the students,
454
00:20:39,738 --> 00:20:42,866
being able to help them
contend with the realities of AI.
455
00:20:42,866 --> 00:20:45,202
Or any other. You know,
whatever comes next, ten years from.
456
00:20:45,202 --> 00:20:46,370
Now, I. Don't know.
457
00:20:46,370 --> 00:20:49,373
Where we'll be, but the yeah.
458
00:20:49,539 --> 00:20:52,542
If if human nature has remained the same
and it has.
459
00:20:52,542 --> 00:20:54,670
There will be the new version of
I don't have.
460
00:20:54,670 --> 00:20:56,171
Something to watch out. For. So.
461
00:20:58,757 --> 00:20:59,174
Yeah.
462
00:20:59,174 --> 00:21:02,177
No, I like that observation
and the kind of forethought there.
463
00:21:02,177 --> 00:21:04,721
Yeah. You're going to have to.
464
00:21:04,721 --> 00:21:07,724
I guess being small gives you a chance to
465
00:21:08,058 --> 00:21:11,311
set a deliberate trajectory, like, okay,
how are we going to
466
00:21:12,312 --> 00:21:14,314
how are we going to handle this.
467
00:21:14,314 --> 00:21:17,317
yeah.
468
00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:18,610
And as you talked about that.
469
00:21:18,610 --> 00:21:21,196
It made me grateful for,
470
00:21:21,196 --> 00:21:24,616
not the university setting, but,
you know, some of the practices
471
00:21:24,658 --> 00:21:28,787
that I've been familiar with in a church
setting where we've got small Sunday
472
00:21:28,787 --> 00:21:32,791
schools that are discussion based or we've
got in home small groups or whatever.
473
00:21:32,791 --> 00:21:35,210
You read a passage together.
474
00:21:35,210 --> 00:21:37,546
Sure. Somebody might
475
00:21:37,546 --> 00:21:40,549
pull up
copilot on their phone and say, well,
476
00:21:40,841 --> 00:21:44,344
you know, here's the background
or whatever, but hopefully there's enough
477
00:21:44,344 --> 00:21:48,640
people there who have studied
who can ask questions about about that.
478
00:21:49,516 --> 00:21:51,351
You're in there.
You're face to face working on it.
479
00:21:53,854 --> 00:21:56,857
and the other side of AI in the classroom?
480
00:21:57,941 --> 00:22:00,944
do you give them assignments
that are specifically how to learn it?
481
00:22:01,862 --> 00:22:05,699
Or sometimes we just assume
anybody can put something into ChatGPT.
482
00:22:05,907 --> 00:22:09,119
But, you know,
I've also I haven't done much myself
483
00:22:10,287 --> 00:22:13,498
but seen various experts
say, well, actually,
484
00:22:14,458 --> 00:22:17,252
the more you know about it,
the more use you'll get out of ChatGPT
485
00:22:17,252 --> 00:22:20,172
if you're coming in there
without any context, it's
486
00:22:20,172 --> 00:22:23,175
not going to help you that much.
487
00:22:23,633 --> 00:22:24,634
are there things like that
488
00:22:24,634 --> 00:22:27,637
that you do to say this is how you use it?
489
00:22:28,889 --> 00:22:30,807
Don't often do do that.
490
00:22:30,807 --> 00:22:33,769
But I think the. I think that argument is.
491
00:22:33,769 --> 00:22:38,523
A, Slippery slope
argument oftentimes in that, you know.
492
00:22:38,940 --> 00:22:39,691
Well.
493
00:22:39,691 --> 00:22:42,152
In order for it to be useful,
you have to use it a ton.
494
00:22:42,152 --> 00:22:42,694
Right?
495
00:22:42,694 --> 00:22:44,988
That's that's true for almost anything.
496
00:22:44,988 --> 00:22:47,491
Right to, to be you know, the.
497
00:22:47,491 --> 00:22:48,241
More adept
498
00:22:48,241 --> 00:22:51,411
you get at it, the more you know, one,
they'll say, oh, you're using it better.
499
00:22:52,287 --> 00:22:54,915
They don't acknowledge
the dependance that is created.
500
00:22:54,915 --> 00:22:56,124
Say like, well,
you know, the more you use it,
501
00:22:56,124 --> 00:22:58,377
the more you're,
the more you're going to be.
502
00:22:58,377 --> 00:23:04,007
Like the, the, The ease
from which you get from point A to point B
503
00:23:04,007 --> 00:23:07,886
in an assignment or in a learning outcome
becomes, becomes addictive.
504
00:23:08,220 --> 00:23:09,346
Like, oh, I don't.
505
00:23:09,346 --> 00:23:11,473
Know how I could do this any other way.
506
00:23:11,473 --> 00:23:13,308
You know, that's the
I think that is what I.
507
00:23:13,308 --> 00:23:16,019
Really think we need to avoid is,
508
00:23:16,978 --> 00:23:19,981
you know, fight that argument that I the.
509
00:23:20,273 --> 00:23:22,526
I chuckle because there was a
it was about six months ago
510
00:23:22,526 --> 00:23:25,529
now this is when ChatGPT was becoming
was exploding in.
511
00:23:25,529 --> 00:23:26,738
Popularity and.
512
00:23:26,738 --> 00:23:28,198
If you went on a job posting.
513
00:23:28,198 --> 00:23:32,327
Board, there were people
who would would style themselves.
514
00:23:32,327 --> 00:23:36,206
They were prompt engineers,
not meaning they were on time, but they.
515
00:23:36,206 --> 00:23:38,125
Meaning that they would.
516
00:23:38,125 --> 00:23:40,961
They had learned to write ChatGPT prompts.
517
00:23:40,961 --> 00:23:42,838
And they and they were they were.
518
00:23:42,838 --> 00:23:45,966
Saying that, you know,
this is a real necessary skill.
519
00:23:46,925 --> 00:23:49,970
Now you don't see any of those postings
right, that has gone.
520
00:23:50,429 --> 00:23:53,432
And I think just because we've
521
00:23:53,890 --> 00:23:55,559
I. Don't think you want to jump,
we want to jump on this
522
00:23:55,559 --> 00:23:58,979
really rapid bandwagon
of like getting good at this will be.
523
00:23:58,979 --> 00:24:02,691
A, a value,
you know, will become a profession.
524
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:05,902
it won't. And I think we already saw that.
525
00:24:06,903 --> 00:24:09,114
And I think it just.
526
00:24:09,114 --> 00:24:10,824
Yeah, it's not a.
527
00:24:10,824 --> 00:24:11,450
Not an argument.
528
00:24:11,450 --> 00:24:14,661
I want to, push too hard.
529
00:24:14,828 --> 00:24:17,706
I don't,
530
00:24:17,706 --> 00:24:21,376
I think if a student asks like,
how can something like, ChatGPT.
531
00:24:21,501 --> 00:24:24,629
I actually had a conversation
with a computer scientist last night.
532
00:24:24,629 --> 00:24:28,008
He was at our home for a Bible study
and I said, well.
533
00:24:28,008 --> 00:24:29,134
How about, like.
534
00:24:29,134 --> 00:24:32,220
Are you using code generation GPTs right.
535
00:24:32,220 --> 00:24:33,972
There's there's these engines
that can generate
536
00:24:33,972 --> 00:24:36,266
computer code to do all sorts of stuff.
537
00:24:36,266 --> 00:24:37,517
And he said, well.
538
00:24:37,517 --> 00:24:37,893
You know.
539
00:24:37,893 --> 00:24:39,102
We kind of do. That.
540
00:24:39,102 --> 00:24:42,022
But the, the,
541
00:24:42,022 --> 00:24:45,066
the. Message I have from my students
oftentimes is like,
542
00:24:45,066 --> 00:24:46,526
understand what the model is good.
543
00:24:46,526 --> 00:24:47,611
For, right?
544
00:24:47,611 --> 00:24:50,030
If and if it's a morally neutral thing.
545
00:24:50,030 --> 00:24:50,322
Right.
546
00:24:50,322 --> 00:24:53,492
Like I'd like to create a code
to update my website a little bit.
547
00:24:53,825 --> 00:24:55,452
Wonder. Wonderful, right?
548
00:24:55,452 --> 00:24:57,829
That's what it's good for.
And it saves you time and effort.
549
00:24:57,829 --> 00:24:59,289
But the to me.
550
00:24:59,289 --> 00:25:02,292
That is an effective
use case of something like I.
551
00:25:02,417 --> 00:25:05,879
But there's so many others that I think
short circuit our ability to grow
552
00:25:05,879 --> 00:25:06,671
and to change.
553
00:25:06,671 --> 00:25:09,174
They kind of like we were talking
about before you lose the.
554
00:25:10,133 --> 00:25:12,552
the. Synapse development
that you might have had if you had.
555
00:25:12,552 --> 00:25:14,804
Struggled the, you know, I, I come.
556
00:25:14,804 --> 00:25:16,473
From an engineering background
and sometimes in.
557
00:25:16,473 --> 00:25:18,517
Programing.
When you're working on a computer
558
00:25:18,517 --> 00:25:21,102
programing project,
it doesn't work forever.
559
00:25:21,102 --> 00:25:24,564
And at some point your mind tells you,
I don't think it's ever going to work.
560
00:25:25,232 --> 00:25:25,398
Right.
561
00:25:25,398 --> 00:25:27,943
You almost you give up in. Despair until.
562
00:25:27,943 --> 00:25:29,236
You realize that moment of.
563
00:25:29,236 --> 00:25:31,404
Like, oh, right there is where my.
564
00:25:31,404 --> 00:25:32,405
Error was.
565
00:25:32,405 --> 00:25:34,658
And now that I fixed it, the whole thing
works. It unravels.
566
00:25:34,658 --> 00:25:37,410
And it's this very satisfying. Moment.
567
00:25:37,410 --> 00:25:40,747
That if you don't,
if you've not labored through,
568
00:25:41,164 --> 00:25:43,833
you'll boy, you just you miss so much
569
00:25:43,833 --> 00:25:46,836
opportunity.
570
00:25:48,088 --> 00:25:48,755
Yeah.
571
00:25:48,755 --> 00:25:51,758
So even in coding,
even in the most computer
572
00:25:52,509 --> 00:25:54,678
computer intensive occupation there is
573
00:25:55,762 --> 00:25:57,722
got the dangers.
574
00:25:57,722 --> 00:25:58,181
Yeah.
575
00:25:58,181 --> 00:26:00,850
I don't really mess with code, but
576
00:26:00,850 --> 00:26:01,893
that was one of my places.
577
00:26:01,893 --> 00:26:07,941
Using, Microsoft
Copilot at work was actually spreadsheets
578
00:26:07,941 --> 00:26:12,112
and using some formulas that were a
little bit beyond my range of competence.
579
00:26:12,821 --> 00:26:15,824
it worked pretty good for that.
580
00:26:15,991 --> 00:26:17,367
But the same thing would apply.
581
00:26:17,367 --> 00:26:18,451
Like, that wasn't, though.
582
00:26:18,451 --> 00:26:22,455
That would not be the way to
to really get really good at using them.
583
00:26:23,999 --> 00:26:26,418
And, you know,
I had developed spreadsheet skills
584
00:26:26,418 --> 00:26:29,421
the old fashioned way to,
to a certain extent.
585
00:26:29,796 --> 00:26:32,841
And so copilot, let me do
586
00:26:32,841 --> 00:26:35,844
a few things
that were a little bit more advanced.
587
00:26:36,094 --> 00:26:38,013
but again,
588
00:26:38,013 --> 00:26:41,016
exactly to your point,
it didn't develop, you know.
589
00:26:41,099 --> 00:26:41,433
Okay.
590
00:26:41,433 --> 00:26:44,936
Now I have regex formulas
in my spreadsheets.
591
00:26:45,186 --> 00:26:46,521
I still don't know how to write regex,
592
00:26:47,522 --> 00:26:49,482
for example.
593
00:26:49,482 --> 00:26:54,904
So Again, to zoom out, we've talked
about this from a bunch of angles.
594
00:26:54,946 --> 00:26:57,949
you know,
595
00:26:57,949 --> 00:27:00,910
engaging in deep study
rather than just looking up the answers.
596
00:27:00,910 --> 00:27:03,747
something that you keep coming back to.
597
00:27:03,747 --> 00:27:08,084
how would you articulate
maybe the the fundamental or basic
598
00:27:08,460 --> 00:27:11,463
value of study?
599
00:27:12,005 --> 00:27:15,008
Comes down to the
600
00:27:15,175 --> 00:27:16,176
both. From the.
601
00:27:16,176 --> 00:27:17,385
From Deuteronomy.
602
00:27:17,385 --> 00:27:19,346
But also echoed in Jesus's words of.
603
00:27:19,346 --> 00:27:21,389
What does it mean to love the. Lord.
604
00:27:21,389 --> 00:27:25,018
With all your heart, soul, mind,
and all highlight mind and strength.
605
00:27:25,143 --> 00:27:28,396
And so we we have this charge.
606
00:27:28,396 --> 00:27:29,564
And I think it it is.
607
00:27:29,564 --> 00:27:34,361
For the Lord gave us minds and challenging
questions and problems for.
608
00:27:34,361 --> 00:27:35,654
Our own good. Right.
609
00:27:35,654 --> 00:27:37,572
They're they're an actual good for us.
610
00:27:37,572 --> 00:27:38,740
Right. The.
611
00:27:38,740 --> 00:27:40,617
The scriptures in the sense,
612
00:27:40,617 --> 00:27:43,870
in a real theological sense
that it is the food for our souls.
613
00:27:44,496 --> 00:27:44,746
Right?
614
00:27:44,746 --> 00:27:45,580
We need to like.
615
00:27:45,580 --> 00:27:48,583
When we study, when we meditate. On.
616
00:27:48,875 --> 00:27:51,878
The text, on what God has said, there's a.
617
00:27:52,170 --> 00:27:53,546
You know, the truth of. Who he is.
618
00:27:53,546 --> 00:27:55,298
And love for him is illuminated and.
619
00:27:55,298 --> 00:27:59,386
Grown and you know, we can you can.
620
00:27:59,386 --> 00:28:02,514
Arrive at the same destination, right?
621
00:28:02,514 --> 00:28:04,391
Either, you know, when in.
622
00:28:04,391 --> 00:28:06,434
In study, you know, say you. Are.
623
00:28:06,434 --> 00:28:09,938
Doing an app for a Bible
reading plan on your an app on your phone,
624
00:28:10,313 --> 00:28:11,981
and you just decide to have it.
625
00:28:11,981 --> 00:28:14,943
You know, I had a read through in my car
at 10x the speed
626
00:28:15,652 --> 00:28:18,446
right which you can do,
you can set up in the app to do that.
627
00:28:18,446 --> 00:28:21,825
But or I'm going to at at cost.
628
00:28:21,825 --> 00:28:22,742
It might cost me sleep.
629
00:28:22,742 --> 00:28:25,745
I'm going to get up and open
a paper Bible and,
630
00:28:26,162 --> 00:28:28,873
and work
my way through each of the pages as I go.
631
00:28:28,873 --> 00:28:31,376
And there's a there's a difference.
632
00:28:31,376 --> 00:28:33,128
There's a true difference there. Right?
633
00:28:33,128 --> 00:28:35,422
If you, I don't. Want to use a.
634
00:28:36,506 --> 00:28:38,049
It doesn't
I don't mean it to be a silly analogy,
635
00:28:38,049 --> 00:28:39,968
but when you're you're driving
from Boston,
636
00:28:39,968 --> 00:28:42,971
where I live, to Portland, Maine,
which is a beautiful city.
637
00:28:42,971 --> 00:28:45,181
Right? You can take the highway there
and it goes pretty straight.
638
00:28:45,181 --> 00:28:46,474
It gets you,
639
00:28:46,474 --> 00:28:49,477
you know, it doesn't take very long, takes
an hour and a half or so to get there.
640
00:28:49,853 --> 00:28:50,103
if you.
641
00:28:50,103 --> 00:28:53,648
Take the back roads, though, you actually
get to know what the state of Maine is.
642
00:28:53,648 --> 00:28:55,525
Like, what you like.
643
00:28:55,525 --> 00:28:57,152
You know, on the highway,
you miss all of those things.
644
00:28:57,152 --> 00:28:58,486
And so.
645
00:28:58,486 --> 00:28:59,529
I think in with.
646
00:28:59,529 --> 00:29:02,949
Regard to deep study,
you can get to the destination.
647
00:29:02,949 --> 00:29:04,325
But you.
648
00:29:04,325 --> 00:29:07,120
You have missed the richness
of what you could have.
649
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,540
Right. If and yeah, I would I.
650
00:29:10,540 --> 00:29:13,918
Would ask the value question of like,
okay, so I got to the destination.
651
00:29:14,294 --> 00:29:16,129
You know.
I didn't have the richness. That's fine.
652
00:29:17,630 --> 00:29:20,091
What is
the cost versus value you've gained?
653
00:29:20,091 --> 00:29:23,094
Or you may have gained a little bit
of time, a little bit of efficiency.
654
00:29:24,804 --> 00:29:25,555
But it but.
655
00:29:25,555 --> 00:29:28,516
Ultimately you got the answer
and it came up sort of empty.
656
00:29:28,516 --> 00:29:28,683
Right?
657
00:29:28,683 --> 00:29:31,686
You've you've you have shoed.
658
00:29:32,020 --> 00:29:34,981
Opportunities to learn, to grow,
to be enriched for the sake of.
659
00:29:34,981 --> 00:29:36,483
Speed.
660
00:29:36,483 --> 00:29:38,109
Right. And I. Think as Christians, we're.
661
00:29:38,109 --> 00:29:40,236
We're. Called to resist that. Right?
662
00:29:40,236 --> 00:29:41,988
The goal is not just to.
663
00:29:41,988 --> 00:29:43,156
You know, get through our.
664
00:29:43,156 --> 00:29:46,159
Lives as quickly and efficiently
and painlessly as possible.
665
00:29:46,326 --> 00:29:48,995
It's to glorify the Lord who saved us.
666
00:29:48,995 --> 00:29:49,204
Right.
667
00:29:49,204 --> 00:29:52,207
And so in in doing that,
we need to see him in his richness.
668
00:29:52,207 --> 00:29:54,000
And I, I, I.
669
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,795
Have a hard time
thinking that that comes in another way
670
00:29:56,795 --> 00:29:59,798
other than deep study
in deep community and discipleship.
671
00:30:00,215 --> 00:30:00,381
Right?
672
00:30:00,381 --> 00:30:03,885
Which you cannot that's not
those are not things we can outsource.
673
00:30:04,177 --> 00:30:07,055
They they they are costly.
674
00:30:07,055 --> 00:30:10,058
But they are. Good.
They grow our souls. We.
675
00:30:10,225 --> 00:30:11,768
I heard someone
describe it recently. That,
676
00:30:12,852 --> 00:30:13,770
he was he's a.
677
00:30:13,770 --> 00:30:15,855
This is a pastor who's a fan of deep.
678
00:30:15,855 --> 00:30:17,482
Study, and he he.
679
00:30:17,482 --> 00:30:17,899
Said, I,
680
00:30:17,899 --> 00:30:20,193
I don't want to give deep study
assignments
681
00:30:20,193 --> 00:30:23,696
in order to create people
who have large minds and small souls,
682
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,367
like, we actually want it to be
both things large, right?
683
00:30:27,367 --> 00:30:27,867
We want.
684
00:30:27,867 --> 00:30:30,537
Large minds that are educated,
that gives us.
685
00:30:30,537 --> 00:30:32,121
Breadth of soul.
686
00:30:32,121 --> 00:30:33,540
We want to, you know, know.
687
00:30:33,540 --> 00:30:35,959
And love
Jesus as fully as we can in this life.
688
00:30:35,959 --> 00:30:38,711
And so,
until we meet him face to face, right?
689
00:30:38,711 --> 00:30:39,921
That's our.
690
00:30:39,921 --> 00:30:43,925
So I guess that's one, one charge
for scriptural study, but also in.
691
00:30:44,634 --> 00:30:46,386
You know, take it into a.
692
00:30:46,386 --> 00:30:47,595
A workplace context, right.
693
00:30:47,595 --> 00:30:50,932
When you're trying to learn a skill
or a trade, again, I read.
694
00:30:50,932 --> 00:30:53,810
Another just short article. About, a.
695
00:30:53,810 --> 00:30:56,813
computer scientist at Google, so,
you know, well-known company.
696
00:30:56,980 --> 00:31:00,817
But what made this individual contributor
employee so special?
697
00:31:01,150 --> 00:31:05,697
He was a high ranking individual
was that he could look at a.
698
00:31:06,114 --> 00:31:08,741
At a problem or not even it.
699
00:31:08,741 --> 00:31:09,909
Wasn't even a known problem.
700
00:31:09,909 --> 00:31:12,120
But his intuition would tell him
something.
701
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:13,705
That something was’nt optimal.
702
00:31:13,705 --> 00:31:15,039
It would it could be faster.
703
00:31:15,039 --> 00:31:18,501
It could. Be, And less memory intensive.
704
00:31:18,585 --> 00:31:22,297
And intuitively, he could dig down
into the weeds and in about two hours
705
00:31:22,297 --> 00:31:25,466
do what it would take a team of lesser
trained engineers weeks to complete.
706
00:31:26,092 --> 00:31:26,551
Right.
707
00:31:26,551 --> 00:31:29,429
And that is not something that that.
708
00:31:29,429 --> 00:31:31,055
AI can replicate, right?
709
00:31:31,055 --> 00:31:33,349
It can. Most computer scientists are like,
I don't want AI to.
710
00:31:33,349 --> 00:31:36,019
Code for me. Right. This is
and they're not worried about their jobs.
711
00:31:36,019 --> 00:31:37,854
They just don't like how well it does it.
712
00:31:37,854 --> 00:31:39,355
And so.
713
00:31:39,355 --> 00:31:39,856
what is it that.
714
00:31:39,856 --> 00:31:43,192
Creates this engineer's intuition
to solve a problem
715
00:31:43,192 --> 00:31:46,654
so effectively, or even in the carpentry
or the, in the contracting trades.
716
00:31:47,071 --> 00:31:49,574
There's, there's cleverness
and there's intuition
717
00:31:49,574 --> 00:31:52,577
and there's brilliance
that is shown by some.
718
00:31:52,744 --> 00:31:53,328
Like how.
719
00:31:53,328 --> 00:31:55,663
Did you think to solve it. That way.
Right.
720
00:31:55,663 --> 00:31:56,664
And it and it.
721
00:31:56,664 --> 00:31:58,374
Was not by taking shortcuts and learning.
722
00:31:58,374 --> 00:32:00,793
It was by observation and.
723
00:32:00,793 --> 00:32:03,588
Mistake and. Recovery and resilience.
724
00:32:03,588 --> 00:32:05,840
And so. That like.
725
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,384
If you want it,
if you want to be excellent at something.
726
00:32:08,384 --> 00:32:10,553
You you can't take shortcuts.
727
00:32:10,553 --> 00:32:11,888
You have to fail. You have to learn.
728
00:32:11,888 --> 00:32:14,933
You have to do the hard study,
to be trained.
729
00:32:14,933 --> 00:32:17,936
So your mind operates as a tool. Right? I.
730
00:32:17,977 --> 00:32:20,271
I think that is
if I had to give a pitch for why.
731
00:32:22,106 --> 00:32:22,941
Study is so.
732
00:32:22,941 --> 00:32:25,902
Important. and I won't even say.
733
00:32:26,486 --> 00:32:29,489
You know, I think deep study is a
is certainly a valid term.
734
00:32:29,489 --> 00:32:31,908
But, I think we as Christians, we.
735
00:32:31,908 --> 00:32:32,784
We, we may.
736
00:32:32,784 --> 00:32:35,536
Overuse the,
may overuse of the term depth,
737
00:32:35,536 --> 00:32:38,498
you know, what does it mean
to be deep versus shallow?
738
00:32:38,498 --> 00:32:41,084
I think the, the. Charges. To engage.
739
00:32:41,084 --> 00:32:42,377
And learn and things that,
740
00:32:42,377 --> 00:32:46,589
that actually are a challenge to you
that make your mind fatigued.
741
00:32:46,839 --> 00:32:48,675
Right? That you're, you know.
742
00:32:48,675 --> 00:32:52,303
You can't expect someone to, to get up
and run a marathon just by walking
743
00:32:52,428 --> 00:32:54,305
from the couch to the fridge every day.
744
00:32:54,305 --> 00:32:56,683
Right? They have. To go
do things that are that are. Tiring.
745
00:32:56,683 --> 00:32:59,268
They have to.
They have to learn and be trained.
746
00:32:59,268 --> 00:33:00,395
And it's the same with our minds.
747
00:33:00,395 --> 00:33:02,271
We we have to do things that are.
748
00:33:02,271 --> 00:33:03,940
Hard, you. Know, you have to. Go.
749
00:33:03,940 --> 00:33:04,983
I love here at Sattler
750
00:33:04,983 --> 00:33:08,611
that they force all students
to learn the original biblical languages.
751
00:33:09,445 --> 00:33:10,571
For many, that's hard.
752
00:33:10,571 --> 00:33:13,783
And for many in the American church,
that's terribly intimidating.
753
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:14,659
But like.
754
00:33:14,659 --> 00:33:17,662
That's your
your mind can be pushed in that. Way.
755
00:33:17,787 --> 00:33:19,122
It can be stretched.
756
00:33:19,122 --> 00:33:19,288
Right.
757
00:33:19,288 --> 00:33:21,791
God gave us a written revelation
that we're to interact with.
758
00:33:21,791 --> 00:33:22,917
And so.
759
00:33:22,917 --> 00:33:25,878
Boy, it's,
sorry your going to get me going on this.
760
00:33:25,878 --> 00:33:26,796
But I think.
761
00:33:26,796 --> 00:33:28,923
Doing the hard work of read and study.
762
00:33:30,091 --> 00:33:32,385
Like.
763
00:33:32,385 --> 00:33:34,345
I think
God, God gave us that for a reason.
764
00:33:34,345 --> 00:33:37,348
We're meant to pursue him in those ways.
765
00:33:40,393 --> 00:33:41,519
Yeah.
766
00:33:41,519 --> 00:33:45,273
I hope you guys don't lose that
original language emphasis.
767
00:33:46,399 --> 00:33:49,402
Yeah, that's something
that's important and worth.
768
00:33:49,902 --> 00:33:52,780
Worth fighting for and maintaining
769
00:33:52,780 --> 00:33:56,200
I was going to ask you, ask you for
a concluding plug for the Studious Life.
770
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,203
And I think you've given us
a pretty strong plug here.
771
00:33:59,370 --> 00:34:01,748
I'm hearing words like,
772
00:34:01,748 --> 00:34:04,751
yeah, growth, doing the work.
773
00:34:05,043 --> 00:34:08,504
loving God by actually treating his word
as food to be
774
00:34:09,505 --> 00:34:12,508
worked on, meditated on, digested,
775
00:34:13,259 --> 00:34:16,262
relationships.
776
00:34:16,679 --> 00:34:18,222
Yeah.
777
00:34:18,222 --> 00:34:20,391
thanks for articulating that.
778
00:34:20,391 --> 00:34:23,394
is there anything else
you'd like to close with?
779
00:34:23,436 --> 00:34:26,856
So you mentioned relationships, too,
and I, you know, I think one of our.
780
00:34:27,023 --> 00:34:27,523
You know.
781
00:34:27,523 --> 00:34:31,444
As Christians, we have these relational
calls where the Lord is a relational God.
782
00:34:31,444 --> 00:34:33,321
And so he's given us. That, that.
783
00:34:33,321 --> 00:34:34,572
Call one is.
784
00:34:35,782 --> 00:34:36,824
In, I.
785
00:34:36,824 --> 00:34:38,701
Think, in the context of discipleship.
Right.
786
00:34:38,701 --> 00:34:41,245
You're, you know. Older
Christian mentoring and discipling.
787
00:34:41,245 --> 00:34:45,249
A younger one, I Think, our effectiveness
788
00:34:45,249 --> 00:34:48,252
as disciple ers or disciples even. Is.
789
00:34:49,212 --> 00:34:51,339
Determined how we've,
790
00:34:51,339 --> 00:34:54,550
I guess, is a function of how
well we've we've studied
791
00:34:54,550 --> 00:34:58,638
how we've been humble
and willing to train our minds to do that.
792
00:34:58,805 --> 00:34:59,055
Right.
793
00:34:59,055 --> 00:35:02,141
If someone you know, if a disciple
or I say a mentee of.
794
00:35:02,141 --> 00:35:03,810
Mine came with a with.
795
00:35:03,810 --> 00:35:06,938
A deep, grievous sin or a trauma
that had occurred.
796
00:35:07,605 --> 00:35:08,147
I think.
797
00:35:08,147 --> 00:35:11,317
I would I would have been irresponsible
if I hadn't put in the time
798
00:35:11,317 --> 00:35:14,320
and labor beforehand
in order to wisely counsel that person.
799
00:35:14,987 --> 00:35:15,238
Right.
800
00:35:15,238 --> 00:35:16,781
So I think the the shortcuts.
801
00:35:16,781 --> 00:35:19,575
We, you know, we may if we avoid the, the.
802
00:35:19,575 --> 00:35:21,452
Studious life,
803
00:35:21,452 --> 00:35:23,746
we're going to find ourselves in a place
where we're out of our depth
804
00:35:23,746 --> 00:35:25,164
fairly quickly. Right?
805
00:35:25,164 --> 00:35:29,085
Because the world around us is demanding
like what is true of the Lord.
806
00:35:29,210 --> 00:35:31,254
What is true in His Word?
807
00:35:31,254 --> 00:35:32,421
How do I how do.
808
00:35:32,421 --> 00:35:34,465
I apply this counsel to my life?
809
00:35:34,465 --> 00:35:37,009
And that takes wisdom to
do, and that wisdom is. Only.
810
00:35:37,969 --> 00:35:39,720
A book of Proverbs tells us is.
811
00:35:39,720 --> 00:35:40,596
Like we.
812
00:35:40,596 --> 00:35:43,015
We wait daily in his gates.
We meditate on his.
813
00:35:43,015 --> 00:35:45,226
You know, we go over to Psalms in 119.
814
00:35:45,226 --> 00:35:47,019
We meditate on his law.
Day and night. Right.
815
00:35:47,019 --> 00:35:48,563
That's the it's.
816
00:35:48,563 --> 00:35:52,316
Not meant to be quick,
but it is meant to be fruitful.
817
00:35:52,650 --> 00:35:55,653
And so we want to move in that way and.
818
00:35:55,820 --> 00:35:56,904
But also in our.
819
00:35:56,904 --> 00:36:00,366
So discipleship on the one hand,
but evangelism on another to.
820
00:36:00,741 --> 00:36:02,702
You know,
we live in a world that, you know.
821
00:36:02,702 --> 00:36:06,956
Is increasingly looking at Christians
as any number of epithets of.
822
00:36:07,707 --> 00:36:09,959
or in sort. Of insulting terms.
823
00:36:09,959 --> 00:36:10,585
And that's fine.
824
00:36:10,585 --> 00:36:12,170
Christ himself was the.
825
00:36:12,170 --> 00:36:14,130
Victim of much of that.
826
00:36:14,130 --> 00:36:16,007
But the, I think.
827
00:36:16,007 --> 00:36:20,553
The studious mind
that that has put in the time to learn.
828
00:36:21,012 --> 00:36:21,512
The truth of the.
829
00:36:21,512 --> 00:36:24,223
Word, how to respond. To, to.
830
00:36:24,223 --> 00:36:26,350
Arguments, to charges, to.
831
00:36:26,350 --> 00:36:27,518
Untruth.
832
00:36:27,518 --> 00:36:30,771
To that
the gospel would come clearly in speech.
833
00:36:30,771 --> 00:36:31,022
Right?
834
00:36:31,022 --> 00:36:34,025
Is something that is, is a slow grown.
835
00:36:34,066 --> 00:36:34,984
Tree, if you want to.
836
00:36:34,984 --> 00:36:37,904
Think about it that way. It's not a
it's not an instantaneous thing.
837
00:36:37,904 --> 00:36:39,322
You know, I probably can't go to.
838
00:36:39,322 --> 00:36:42,200
Well,
I could go to ChatGPT and say. Okay, if.
839
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,410
This argument is made against me,
what do I say?
840
00:36:44,410 --> 00:36:48,206
And it might give you some helpful tips,
but when the pressure is
841
00:36:48,206 --> 00:36:51,209
on, are you going to be able
to recall those instantly?
842
00:36:51,334 --> 00:36:54,420
You know, someone says like, you know,
it gives you a charge against scriptures.
843
00:36:54,921 --> 00:36:55,213
know, like.
844
00:36:55,213 --> 00:36:58,466
Hold on, let me pull out my phone
and punch it into the LLM for an answer.
845
00:36:58,466 --> 00:36:59,133
Here.
846
00:36:59,133 --> 00:36:59,675
They'd say, like what?
847
00:36:59,675 --> 00:37:00,593
You don't you don't.
848
00:37:00,593 --> 00:37:02,845
Care enough about this to know.
849
00:37:02,845 --> 00:37:04,305
And we want to.
850
00:37:04,305 --> 00:37:05,890
Anticipate and avoid a charge.
851
00:37:05,890 --> 00:37:08,309
Like that, that, you know, the.
Lord is important to.
852
00:37:08,309 --> 00:37:11,729
Us enough that we love his Word.
853
00:37:11,729 --> 00:37:13,731
We we love the study.
854
00:37:14,982 --> 00:37:15,524
and I want to.
855
00:37:15,524 --> 00:37:16,567
I guess the last comment I'll.
856
00:37:16,567 --> 00:37:18,569
I'll give is I.
857
00:37:18,569 --> 00:37:21,155
The Holy Spirit is is
858
00:37:21,155 --> 00:37:23,282
so gracious in. That, you know, maybe.
859
00:37:23,282 --> 00:37:26,452
You you hear what I'm saying,
and you think, well, I'm not a student.
860
00:37:26,953 --> 00:37:28,371
I don't like studying.
861
00:37:28,371 --> 00:37:29,163
I don't like reading.
862
00:37:29,163 --> 00:37:32,667
I don't like, The the.
863
00:37:32,667 --> 00:37:35,920
Graciousness of the spirit in the word
is such that, like.
864
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:37,797
Not, we're not all. Gifted the same way.
865
00:37:37,797 --> 00:37:41,759
I'm a very studious person,
but you don't have to be
866
00:37:42,218 --> 00:37:46,764
anything like me to experience the
the growth of that studious life.
867
00:37:46,764 --> 00:37:49,600
Right? Maybe,
868
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:52,103
I’m thinking with our own, within my home
church community.
869
00:37:52,103 --> 00:37:54,897
Challenging folks to like.
870
00:37:54,897 --> 00:37:58,317
To busy yourself
enough with study and reading.
871
00:37:58,943 --> 00:38:00,653
So that you you have if you.
872
00:38:00,653 --> 00:38:03,614
Have these little like gaps of time
during the day.
873
00:38:03,614 --> 00:38:04,573
You you.
874
00:38:04,573 --> 00:38:07,076
Have to fill them with Scripture in order
to get done what you're trying to get.
875
00:38:07,076 --> 00:38:07,868
Done.
876
00:38:07,868 --> 00:38:08,077
Right.
877
00:38:08,077 --> 00:38:10,496
Like you're you're involved in this enough
878
00:38:10,496 --> 00:38:12,999
that it keeps bleeding
into these little moments.
879
00:38:12,999 --> 00:38:14,041
That you you.
880
00:38:14,041 --> 00:38:16,585
Thought you might have a spare time.
Where, you know.
881
00:38:16,585 --> 00:38:20,798
Previously you may have gone to TikTok
or to Instagram or some sort of diversion.
882
00:38:21,215 --> 00:38:22,466
It's like, what would.
883
00:38:22,466 --> 00:38:24,635
We take those little moments
and put Scripture in. There?
884
00:38:24,635 --> 00:38:26,095
Like, what would.
885
00:38:26,095 --> 00:38:28,014
What would the Lord do with. That? Right.
886
00:38:28,014 --> 00:38:29,223
And yeah, I.
887
00:38:29,223 --> 00:38:32,810
I don't know, but I'm led and I'm
led in faith in from the scriptures that.
888
00:38:33,102 --> 00:38:33,477
Like.
889
00:38:33,477 --> 00:38:35,813
He will bless and grow
fruit from those things. So.
890
00:38:36,856 --> 00:38:38,399
You know, there is no Christian.
891
00:38:38,399 --> 00:38:41,402
Who is outside of like.
892
00:38:41,610 --> 00:38:45,781
God's promise to engage and to study
and to love him with our.
893
00:38:45,781 --> 00:38:47,992
Minds. Right? We're we're all there.
894
00:38:47,992 --> 00:38:49,327
And he. Meets us where we. Are.
895
00:38:49,327 --> 00:38:52,288
You know, he's not going to just because
he teaches me something, he doesn't
896
00:38:52,288 --> 00:38:55,708
teach you the same thing at the same pace
is kind of irrelevant.
897
00:38:55,958 --> 00:38:56,334
Right?
898
00:38:56,334 --> 00:39:00,254
He's building his church in the way
he wants to so we can trust him in it.
899
00:39:01,756 --> 00:39:02,590
Yeah. Yeah.
900
00:39:02,590 --> 00:39:05,593
Thanks for bringing us back to that.
901
00:39:05,843 --> 00:39:08,304
fundamental reminder.
902
00:39:08,304 --> 00:39:11,098
I guess it's easy for us to.
903
00:39:11,098 --> 00:39:11,349
You know,
904
00:39:11,349 --> 00:39:14,727
we hear things about the importance
of being in scripture, being in the word.
905
00:39:14,727 --> 00:39:17,605
And it's easy for it to,
906
00:39:17,605 --> 00:39:21,275
get old or slip past us
or take it for granted.
907
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,362
And I appreciate you just pushing in,
908
00:39:24,362 --> 00:39:28,199
hopefully
helping to re-inspired us, there.
909
00:39:30,493 --> 00:39:33,496
so, yeah,
let's wrap that up for the episode.
910
00:39:33,579 --> 00:39:37,708
So, yeah, to our,
guests and viewers and listeners,
911
00:39:37,750 --> 00:39:41,545
thanks for joining us for this episode
with Ben
912
00:39:41,754 --> 00:39:44,840
and you check out things.
913
00:39:45,091 --> 00:39:49,970
You can find us on YouTube, podcast on
our website, anabaptistperspectives.org.
914
00:39:50,679 --> 00:39:53,808
We also do essays in written form,
915
00:39:53,933 --> 00:39:57,686
which you can find as Essays for King
Jesus as a podcast.
916
00:39:58,521 --> 00:40:02,483
or again on our website
at anabaptistperspectives.org.
917
00:40:02,691 --> 00:40:03,692
Thanks for joining us.