[00:00:00] Nina Endrst: Hi, I'm Nina Endrst.

[00:00:04] Anna Toonk: I'm Anna Toonk.

[00:00:05] Nina Endrst: Welcome to How to be Human.

[00:00:07] Anna Toonk: A podcast that explores the common and often confusing themes of humanness.

Take a seat, clear your mind and let's chat.

[00:00:18] Nina Endrst: Hello?

[00:00:18] Anna Toonk: Hello? Hello? Hello.

[00:00:21] Nina Endrst: What's up girl, what's up.

[00:00:23] Anna Toonk: I am admiring my that I'm hoping I'm in my last phase of this sunburn peeling got distracted for a second where I was like, oh, it's still happening. Great. Nothing makes you feel less attractive than. Peeling I think. And any kinda skin thing, I think you're like, Mmm.

Like that doesn't make me feel good, you know, , it's like, mm, Ew. So, yeah, it's you, but I'm hoping. That this is the last it's got me scared straight for the rest of the summer, though. If you take another dip in the little ocean, make sure you reapply, don't be like a bad banana and forget and burn the shit outta your shoulders.

No,

[00:01:12] Nina Endrst: you must reapply everyone. For many, many reasons. I

[00:01:16] Anna Toonk: also really got my ear. So having peeling ear also will make you. Feel like you are a goddamn monster that needs to be kept inside for a little while. So. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's how beautiful I'm feeling

[00:01:32] Nina Endrst: heard. Um, so we're talking about learning lessons today, which is that's a perfect segue.

[00:01:39] Anna Toonk: We are, which it's funny, like in my head, I've been thinking about this. I'm also in a real usher place. If you haven't watched usher. Tiny desk, uh, concert. I recommend it, but I feel like these are my confessions, that

[00:01:57] Nina Endrst: usher bad, bad boy usher. Yeah.

[00:02:01] Anna Toonk: I was thinking though that, like, obviously there's tons of things I've learned, you know, I mean, you as well, like we've all learned lots and lots of things, but like when thinking about.

someone giving me a microphone of like what I wanted to talk about as like, you know, hard to learn lessons. I kind of came up with three things I think. And I'll be so curious to hear what, like what we don't have a definition for y'all today. Cuz we thought we literally would just try something that was a little less.

Structured and maybe a little more real of us just sharing our experiences, but I'm curious, what have, what have you come to today with? How did you think about it?

[00:03:00] Nina Endrst: I, how do I not think about it? I mean, I've thinking about it a lot in like the cyclical kind of way and repetitive too, of the lessons I've had the lessons I've not learned and then had to learn.

Because the same thing came in a different package to teach me the same lesson that I didn't wanna learn the first time. So I'm thinking a lot about that, but also the major ones and ones that have been kind of, I think, more pivotal moments or just things that have stuck with me. I have a really. I don't wanna say bad, but I don't have a great memory.

I think that's for many reasons, but there were a few that I wanted. I didn't wanna like search for them too much. I just wanted them to kind of come to me. So the ones that came to me were kind of interesting. I, I wouldn't expect, I don't think I would've expected the, those to pop into my head and I kind of the first one that surfaced was one from when I was a kid.

Like a, like a teenager. And I was like, wow, I haven't thought about that in a long time. So I, I think we're always learning lessons constantly. Obviously. I think I'm less annoyed about it these days. Like, I think that it used to be a huge pain in the ass, but now it just feels like something I, I embrace for the most part.

I mean, I'm not. Excited about it, but I find a lot more value in the lessons. And I think the reason that we're here, I, we would be, or I wouldn't know how not to talk about the fact that, you know, we were looking through the videos today just by chance. Of old soul videos, which was the membership platform we had before.

That's how Anna and I connected and created how to be human. And I was like, wow, I was so, so, so, so, so, so sure that I was sure, even though that I knew that I was forcing some things and not listening to myself on other things, which was not like me, I I've really learned a so many. With that business and all of them I'm really grateful for, but in the midst of it, it felt like it kind of felt like shit

[00:05:14] Anna Toonk: Yeah. I think that it's really interesting. The difference between the things that we can, I think learn and versus what you know, tends to be. like, Hey girl, it's me again. I'm gonna remind you about this. You know, like I have so many things that I feel so many lessons. I feel like I can only keep a hold of for short periods of time and then I forget it and I have to remember it.

And I'm like, I think I've gotten to the point now where I accept. That, that that's just part of it. That's part of being a human or that's brains. I don't know. You know, but that, like, we, I think that is some of the practice of like, you constantly have to come back to like, oh yeah, that's a thing. Oh, right, right, right.

Like that's always a thing for me that I have to remind myself about that, you know, and it's interesting to me, what I think you can kind of check off of like, I've learned that like, as, as much as any, as much as you can, you know, like a huge thing for me, like the first thing that came into mind, well, two things came into mind and I'm gonna hold one of 'em back because it's funny.

And. I, I was, it's funny because ever since we decided to do this, I knew one thing I, uh, wanted to talk about, but I was like dying to tell you, but I was like, I want her reaction on Mike. So it's been like this delicious little morsel I've been holding back. Um, so, so Anna. Yeah, we won't get to that yet. We won't get to that yet.

As I like to, you know, I'm, I'm setting up my stage. Yeah. We'll we'll sandwich that so, but the we'll we'll sandwich it in our, in our lessons, in

[00:07:08] Nina Endrst: our bad, in our bad, bad ones.

[00:07:10] Anna Toonk: Yeah. It's true. I mean, this was some dumb shit that I did, but I learned a lot, but anyway, A big, big thing that I could not learn when I was younger, that I began to learn.

When I got older, that hugely changed my life was how to be sensitive, but not take everything personally because I took everything personal. I mean, and as it. Probably up until I was a young adult. I mean, shit. I probably take everything personal now, you know but like, no, you

[00:07:47] Nina Endrst: take way less things personally, even since I've known you.

[00:07:50] Anna Toonk: Yeah, I really, I mean, but it's something that I have to. I think it's like anything you, you know, it's like, you kind of, you anchor yourself into something of like, nothing is personal, you know, or like very, very, very few things are personal. So it's like, I, you anchor into that, you know, it's like, okay, that's really scary.

I don't really know what that means. And I really couldn't understand of like, But if it's happening to me, then it is personal to me. Like, cause so often I would be like, this thing happened, I have feelings and I would get dismissed with like, well, it wasn't personal. It wasn't personal. And I was like, okay, I don't really know what to do with that.

That didn't make it go away. That didn't fix anything, you know? Like, and so I got like caught. For so many years in that cycle. And I think probably like doubling down on the sensitivity or the feelings to be like, you know, or, or just like going in an other direction of like, oh, you're gonna say, it's, it's not personal.

I'm gonna build a case that is so airtight, you know, like I would just go in these bonkers directions versus learning to go like, Your feelings are valid that, that wasn't done to you, or like, it, it, it was so. Liberating for me when I started to figure some of that out. And it was also let me see what I was avoiding by assuming everything was personal.

If you assume everything's personal, you also like disempower yourself. So by like starting to be like, they weren't doing that to me because that's treatment. I Des you know, like it, let me start doing all this other work of like, why did I assume I should be treated that way? Versus seeing it's an anomaly like that, or that shouldn't have been happening, or those are moments you need to self advocate and say like, you know, I'm hearing you're upset, but I don't really like to be spoken to that way or whatever, you know, versus just being like they were so.

Mean to me or, or whatever. I try to hold it, you know, like in two hands, like of course you have your reaction and you have your, your thoughts or you think that the situation is X. And then I try to hold it in my other hand of like, They probably didn't mean to do that, you know, like, or that's, they probably weren't thinking of me, which is also what painful thing, you know, like, whatever, in the other hand,

[00:10:32] Nina Endrst: I mean, it's freeing for sure. I similar, but mine's more. I'm definitely that I echo that statement. However, I feel like today I was driving. I learned how much I've learned when I was driving in the sky. Full moon makes full moons, make people obviously crazy. And people are just kind of like, you know, losing their shit anyway.

But we were, I was driving through this like crazy intersection in this sky, in. Was the one who had to yield. And he was like, why don't you drive fucking slower? Like literally screamed that out his window .

[00:11:13] Anna Toonk: And like, I was like, what is wrong with people?

[00:11:16] Nina Endrst: Like, first of all, I was going the actual speed limit and there was a car in front of me that was stopped.

So like, would you like me to plow through so that you and your big male ego, but here's what I learned about what I've learned. my body had zero reaction and I have worked so hard to not engage, to learn the lesson that when you match someone's. Emotions, and then you become it, right. And you give, you can swap energy with somebody.

And so I would, I constantly do this still where I have to continue to learn the lesson and continue to remind myself of the lesson of if, if somebody is angry around me. Right. And I think this has helped me so much in relationships too. Instead of trying to fix someone, fix something, if someone's sad or mad, Disappointed or whatever, instead of trying to fix it or give them some sort of, you know, action plan.

I can separate my energy from them because I think so much of me would get angry because, or would try to fix something or because I was, I was just feeling it so much in my body and so uncomfortable with other people's emotions in my body that I wanted to get, get them out. And similarly, like if that happened to me, On different a different day.

And I was like, you know, in a different mood, I would've swapped energy with that guy. And I would've been, you know, given him my chill or whatever, or I would've let that chill just fly away. And I would've been like, fuck you. And, and what is that gonna do other than potentially get me killed in the middle of the street?

So what I've learned is that I don't have to take on other people's and, and that is not helpful in any way, shape or.

[00:13:05] Anna Toonk: Yeah. Well, what you're talking about is self-regulation and you've learned that if someone is agitated, it doesn't really work. If the way you try to co-regulate is you just swap, you know, like you've learned to just regulate yourself.

Versus being like, yeah. Oh, here just have my chill and I'll take your anger, you know, like we'll just, we'll do little swamp skis, you know, like you're staying in your. Field to regulate versus taking ownership of someone else's, which is right. Something that comes up all the time. Like I'm just hearing it talked about more, which is exciting, but it comes up a lot in regards to relationships of how to self regulate and co-regulate, you know, cuz it's like, You know, a lot of things.

I feel sometimes like an alien, because it's so far from my own life, but you know, like something that's talked about a lot is like, um, someone working from home and a spouse who works in an office and they come home and they're like, oh, today was terrible. And it's like the, the person who's maybe from working from home, like doesn't wanna regulate to that stress.

So how to like, hold space, but not, you know, Regulate to that, the regulate to the stress. How do you regulate to the calm, you know, type of thing? And I'm like, oh, that sounds all very complicated. maybe, um, we just all stay in our own energies versus, uh, taking it on board, but it is really hard in the, like, it's so hard.

Some of this stuff, like when you're talking about it, it sounds. So clear and easy and you do this or this, or you pay attention to this, but in the moment when that stuff, you know, like when you can feel the choice of like, do I give, like, do I give over, like, I'm sure you could have gotten your body involved.

If you wanted to, like, if you would wanted to get mad, you could have, you know, but it's like, I'm going. To trust what I've learned and like stay in this state is like such a nice feeling when something is not just intellectualized, but I think embodied, you know, that you're like, Ooh, I figured out how to get all the, like everybody on board to do this differently.

[00:15:39] Nina Endrst: Yeah. And I mean, that's, I think reminding. Ourselves that, that it also ebbs and flows and changes. Mm-hmm , you know, you can just, because you've learned something doesn't mean it it's going to be consistent all the time. Right. And there are days that it's harder to stay embodied in something that you've learned.

And then there are days that you really sink into that. I, I haven't been on, I haven't been doing like my own practices as in getting to my mat and moving, just doing my own thing. It being for like a class that I'm planning or whatever for a while. And this moon has made me like super emotional and I have my period, but I've just been really like weepy the past week and a half.

And I. The other day, I was like feeling super panicky in the morning and instead of pushing myself, which, you know, another thing that I feel like I continued to learn is a around perfectionism. Like, I didn't even know I was a perfectionist for so long. I mean, probably until like you and I talked about it.

Do you

[00:16:51] Anna Toonk: remember that? that I remember less so than you were realizing you were a control freak now yeah. I mean, same, same

[00:17:00] Nina Endrst: I think

[00:17:01] Anna Toonk: I real, she was like, I didn't know. And I was like, I, I, it was the funniest thing I'd ever heard that I just, cuz I mean, I was like, fuck off. It's just so well, I'm like, I just thought we all knew.

I mean, I just thought I was a given, you know, like, I mean like it's, you know, obviously not an issue, you know, like,

[00:17:22] Nina Endrst: um, just thought, I just thought I was guiding everyone to the correct place all the time. No, but I , but the perfectionism stuff came as a real kind of shock to me where I was like, but that can't be like, I I'm messy and you know, yeah, I don't.

And, but I, when I got to my math the other day, I, I sunk back into something and I, and when something clicks like that, for me, I feel. I'm like, wow, I do know this, you know, and it's nice to be reminded and to remind yourself, and sometimes that's. you know, through having a, a hard conversation. Sometimes it's really just honoring yourself and your body in the moment, because what I was supposed to do that morning was, you know, go to my class.

And I always go to my class on Saturday and Sunday mornings and I cop go to my class and cuz I'm a fucking control freak. And I woke up really panicky and I had a major panic attack and I. Nina. You're not gonna force yourself to go to class right now. You're gonna go into your office, lay out your mat and do something for yourself in there and take it easy.

And it was like the best decision I've made. And, and I was trying to force myself into this just like scheduled thing, which is, feels so. Not me and like the antithesis of so much of what I stand for, but at the same time, that's something I've learned about myself and continue to learn that just because I am one way and kind of fluid in some ways, doesn't mean I'm not a total fucking control freak.

Who's who wants to be good all the time and feel good all the time and do the right thing all the time. And I have to let myself off the hook and be able to switch lanes and acclimate and treat myself. kindly when I need and softly when I need that. And so I continue, continue to learn that and, and preach it.

So I definitely better be teaching it to myself, but that's a hard one.

[00:19:24] Anna Toonk: It, it is hard. I mean, I think I remember at some point in. in the therapy, when all this stuff I had learned thus far in my toolbox, like wasn't cutting it anymore. And I was like, but this is my self-care. This is how I take the care of the self, you know, and I was like, uh, I don't really have anything else.

Like, this was the plan, you know, and, um, fresh out. Yeah. My therapist was like, these things change. And I was like, mm, no, not a fan of that. She's like, I know you're kind of a set it and forget it kind of gal like boundaries, rules, like all this sort of stuff. She's like, it's just not really how it works, you know?

And that I think is. I think that in itself is a lesson like, you know, fuck diet culture. But the one thing I do like about diet culture, I mean, it not really, but the whole 80 20 thing of when people talk about 80% of the time, they try to like eat or move or be a certain way. And they allow for 20% of the other time.

You know that they're, they go off the rails or whatever, I think approaching life or self care or any of that stuff, like 80% of the time, this is what works. And then there's this 20% of the time that it doesn't, you know, mm-hmm has been. for me a way to cope with some of that control and perfectionism stuff.

Cuz I was the same way when my therapist was like, you're a perfectionist. I was like for the fuck. I am like, I rolled up here, like, do you see the ice coffee on my shirt? As I speak to you now, Christina, like, no, I am not a perfectionist. You know? And she was like, nice try, you know? And. Illuminated all these other ways that it can come up, you know?

Yeah. That just like, think about how often you don't do something because it won't hold up to the fantasy you have in your head. And I was like, well, fuck, you got me there. You know, like, um, you lost me and now I'm back in, you know, and. She was like, it was probably a lot of how you received care as a child that, you know, like the more perfect you were in a way, the more your needs got met.

And I was like, mm, I think my mom would tell you I was never perfect at any juncture of my childhood, but. You know, it was, but it was like kind of interesting to think about how, like, we have this idea of what perfectionism looks like, you know, that it you're, you know, wearing like suits and very buttoned up.

Totally. And it's like, that's not it like, that's, that's one FA or that's one expression of it, but like, Things need to be very much, a certain way for you to feel safe or function like that is often a sign of perfectionism, you know, and it is really important, I think to challenge that when you can, but like often the moments you need to challenge it the most are like, when it feels the least good.

When you have a panic attack, it's not the time you wanna be like, oh, Nina, like this is Nina. And we're bumping up against our perfectionist. You know, it's like, you just wanna feel better. You just wanna not be panicking. But for me, that's the whole 80 20 thing has been helpful for me of like 80% of the time.

These are the things I go to, to soothe or to bolster myself or, or take care of my or whatever. And whenever I'm a. Because I know for me, if I can panic, if like I go to use something and it doesn't work, like I can, I can be like, Oh. Oh like, well, that's all I got, you know, like I can just spin out and it's been helpful for me to adopt this idea of like, no, this will always need to be fluid.

So it's okay. If you can't go to the class today, if 80% of the time, we always wanna go to the class, but 20% of the time we have to allow for it, doesn't work for us.

[00:23:48] Nina Endrst: Yeah. That's a huge part. Of the lesson within the lesson, which is like, not only can you treat yourself better, you know, around like the block or for, because it didn't feel as scary to me as it once would have mm-hmm to, to let myself change the plan or to be. I feel like I used to change plans, just like to abandon myself.

And then I got so rigid about the plans because I was like, I will not abandon myself. Yeah. And then I had to find them happy medium that I was gonna,

[00:24:27] Anna Toonk: I was gonna ask you about that because. I was gonna say, I don't think you ever push yourself, which is not what I mean, but I don't. Thank Anna. Yeah. You never push yourself, uh, just coasting through these days.

No, but I think you are really good at not over, you know, not abandoning yourself and not overriding. And I was gonna ask, is it, is it because you had to learn that?

[00:24:56] Nina Endrst: Uh, yes. Like that's, I think the biggest. Most impactful and consistent lesson of my life is that because I, I was not a disciplined person for the majority of my life in any way, shape or form.

I would totally fuck off. I would not take care of myself. I mean, I ate well pretty much like, but I would just be like, whatever, like I'll have another glass of wine, like, whatever. I'll if I don't feel well after I eat that, like, it's fine. I'll just, I'll just do it anyway. And everything. My life was like that.

So I, I swung so far in the other direction for so many years that when I came to like, the way I work now is I, I, yeah. I try to just have this structure for myself as my safe space so that I know, but it's more like, I, it just it's, I'm in constant conversation with myself, not in an annoying way, but like about nurturing myself.

Like I need to put my legs up the wall. In the middle of the day. It and I, and I can like, I do that if my, like, Mylo, I see it in Mylo so much because he's like, I need a little break. He'll be, by the way, he'll be like cleaning up his toys. That's the timing is always impeccable. He's like, I need a little break.

like, oh, of course you're exhausted. But what I have obviously instilled in him is that it's okay to take breaks and it's okay. And we need them. And I never used to take breaks. I used to completely, I didn't even hear the system in, I didn't have a system inside of me. I just was like LA LA LA. I'll just fly all at all highs all the time.

So, yeah, I had to learn it and I had to learn it the hard way. And now it's about reminding myself that, that I don't need to, I have to check in before I do the thing that I'm hoping will help support me in whatever way I need. Yeah. Like, is that really gonna help?

[00:26:56] Anna Toonk: Yeah. Self abandonment is probably my biggest lesson.

It's. it's for sure not learned. I would say it's on the pending list. any day now cross those fingers. You don't, you don't have that money yet. Maybe. Yeah. I, uh, it is being held in escrow. I have not been awarded that. I think it's something, I mean, to my learning defense, it's been one, I sure as shit have been trying to learn for a long ass time, but it's been a really.

So much of my life was built upon a foundation of self abandonment that it was a major thing to dismantle. So I can't be too hard on myself about it because so much of my existence and survival was predicated upon self abandonment. So got me into a real bit of a pickle. If I'm being honest, Nina got, got me into a real place in my life where I was.

This doesn't feel good. And a lot of the things that seem to be happening or going wrong or not working, like all these roads seem to keep coming back to like you did stuff you didn't want to do, you know, or like you, I, it's not so much, it's not as easy as like people pleasing or any of the like kind of Instagram popular, you know?

psycho psychoanalysis terms or whatever, but I think the core thing was a pattern of a pattern and a comfortability with self abandonment that self abandonment felt so much more natural, comfortable. Right. And the way to me that learning that it wasn't like was such a process and, and then starting to trust it.

And then. That led me to what was gonna be my, my second thing that I wouldn't say I've learned, learned, but, um, on the path of, um, both and you know, that I used to be so hung up on like truth and like, what is the truth or whatever. And a big thing I had to really learn is like very, it's actually often kind of a negative if you're in black and white thinking.

Things are much more gray than we want to really accept. And. Going into the black and white thinking gives us this like kind of illusion of safety and, and it's a lot more comfortable than dealing kind of with both. And like, and I had to really learn, I had to start wrapping my mind around that and both, and like, I can want one thing and someone else can want me to do another, like to even begin to start unpacking and challenging the self, you know, abandonment.

[00:29:59] Nina Endrst: Yeah, both. And that's a mm-hmm

[00:30:02] Anna Toonk: I don't like it. That's a

[00:30:04] Nina Endrst: no, but you know what? It's, it's helpful. It's helpful in this scheme of things in, in this, in the long, in the long run, because to your point, it is really to clinging to the box and not. Any of the other information in, because it's just feels safer and it feels self-righteous, but not, you know, we don't, I don't think we could call ourselves that, but it's like, I'm right.

And that's wrong. And this is right or that's wrong. And while I do think some things are fundamentally wrong, I have also learned that there's, you know, there are such layers to things and people and. Situations that we all we really need to account for, if we, if we want to grow. And we also wanna understand humans on a kind of, you know, deeper level, which I think we definitely do.

I mean, I don't, I, I both can't stand humans and of obviously I'm completely fascinated by and to have built my entire life around understanding. Them and working with them. So it's just ridiculous. I

[00:31:20] Anna Toonk: mean, that's a classic, both, and right there, you know

[00:31:23] Nina Endrst: exactly. I'm like, I hate you and I don't wanna be around any of you.

And it's all I can think about to do with my life is to serve you. Yeah. I

[00:31:30] Anna Toonk: mean, there's like, there's stuff that is black and white. Like there are things like racism bad there there's no, I'm not a abortion. Yeah. Good. Um, a choice, a right. You know, like, right. Exactly's there's there are. There are things that yes are, are black and white.

However, I don't know about you, but when I have been. the most humbled is when I have also been the most Sanon that whenever I have climbed above a high horse and been like, why is that person doing? Or LA LA LA LA LA LA LA, that there's like, there's only one truth. You know, then I got led into like something of like, you know, She, you know, like she wasn't cheating on them.

Like they had an open relationship, like blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, ah, like we, you never know you, like, you just never, it's like, yeah, like whenever I've been real tempted to be like, no, this is, you know, I guess moralizing, whenever I've wanted to really be Sanon or get into that, like kind of, I think that I think my resistance to black and white thinking now, Especially post, you know, Trump, especially as we become a more fascist state, is that is what the right deploys.

And so that is also where I'm getting, uh, I want to, um, have less and less black and white thinking in my own life, you know? Yeah. That's a real tool and weaponization of, of the right. And I want nothing to do with that. So have to totally it

[00:33:11] Nina Endrst: in myself. Great. So shall we discuss our funniest lessons? Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. You go first.

[00:33:22] Anna Toonk: Don't get a prison pen P

[00:33:26] Nina Endrst: oh my God. Anna

[00:33:31] Anna Toonk: Anna. Yep. I did it many years. I joked about getting a prison pen pal. I do like, I'm sorry. Yeah.

[00:33:38] Nina Endrst: How does one stumble upon a prison pen?

[00:33:43] Anna Toonk: Well, there's there's websites. And, and we were like joking about it at work. And this is why I can't work.

This is why I can't work. No, this is why I can't work at a comedy network in a bullpen office with a bunch of people that like to egg each other on because wait,

[00:34:07] Nina Endrst: this is gonna make me sad.

[00:34:08] Anna Toonk: Well, like what kind of prisoner? He was in Oregon, which was part of my thing. If I felt safe that when he got paroled, he was in what he was in Oregon.

So he was, oh, Oregon. So he was far away. He did something with he, um, he was, he got, he, he did burglary and I wanna say grand larceny. And I think when he got caught, he had a gun on him. So that's part of why he was like in prison for years, you know, but. I don't know, like I, oh, I'd also had torn my calf muscle.

Um, I had a 90% tear in my calf muscle, so I like couldn't walk and I was on lots of, of pills. I was on Percocet and muscle relaxers and I would get dosed up and get on the internet at night. And I mean, I was like on okay. Cupid. And I was like, I have never been more dazzling like this. I, I never understood how people got hooked on pills.

And I completely understand now after that, because I didn't feel high, I just wasn't in pain anymore. And I felt like my best version of myself. And I was like, oh, I a hundred percent understand how, why people. Lose their entire lives in devotion of this. Yeah. You know, like it was kind of honestly, a little bit of foreshadowing, like it little did.

I know it would become a bigger thing in my life, down the road, but like, it made me understand it, it made me take it seriously to start also getting myself off it, you know? Cuz I was like, oh yeah, this is, this is good. This is nice. Um, this is

[00:35:43] Nina Endrst: not funny. This is

[00:35:45] Anna Toonk: sad. So then though I started, he and I became bud.

So we started emailing. It was all fine and well, and where I was naive is he did develop a little bit of a crush and he did start to think a little bit that like when he got out type things, we, we got in a fight, which that was not what I saw happening with our prison, my prisoner pin P because he was like, essentially, what's the point of us talking, like, if you're not gonna be my girlfriend, when I get out and I was like, that was never on the table, you know, it really showed me my own immaturity.

And I thought this thing that I thought was like, kind of different and funny and you know, like it, it showed me how little I understood and I learned more. Prison because of him, which I'm grateful for. And it got me a lot more plugged into like prison reform and things like that. But it also taught me a lot about like taking people's feelings, I think a little more seriously.

Even though my intentions were not negative. I didn't go in to exploit anybody wasn't going in. I was just in a very different place of my life, where I was just really open and open for experiences and was like, I wanna like meet everybody and do everything. I was just in a very open place and it showed me that you can be open and maybe have more consideration for people's feelings that.

You, if you wait into worlds unfamiliar to you, you get problems unfamiliar to you as well.

[00:37:38] Nina Endrst: Oh yeah. Which by the way, nothing funny about that story. Zero, other than the absurdity that you were like, I'm gonna go on in a website, but then again, it makes me like, Aw, because like N not in, you know, a condescending way, but.

why shouldn't people in prison have pen pal.

[00:37:56] Anna Toonk: Exactly. Like some of these people, like it broke my heart. That's sad that

[00:38:01] Nina Endrst: they're

[00:38:02] Anna Toonk: not the ones that hurt children. Like, yeah. Oh. I was like, you can search by different criteria. And I was like, nonviolent, you know, like, yeah. I'm not, I'm not that person. I don't think serial killers are cool.

Yeah. But I think I also too, like I have a fundamental distrust of men, so I think it was also for me, like, well, let me just go talk to a prisoner. Like, let me go to, you know, like maybe that'll help, you know, like I think I was trying to do other things, you know, but something about it too, just like really got me of like, just because somebody.

Fucked up. Like, does it mean they're not deserving of friendship or interaction, you know, like how do we expect these people or to be taken

[00:38:44] Nina Endrst: seriously? Yeah. You know what I mean? And like, not that his expectation was appropriate, but the fact that like, of course, somebody who's literally starved for human connection is going to latch on to somebody who is a human.

Exactly.

[00:38:58] Anna Toonk: Like when it happened. I was like, you're really like, that was so naive, Anna, like you you're like, bye. You know, bye friend, I'll talk to you later and he's in prison, you know? And you go back to your life, you know, like I, yeah, I really didn't. I didn't think about it at all. I really didn't. So it was very, very educational.

[00:39:30] Nina Endrst: Yeah. Not funny, but naive. that? It's educational. I'm gonna change mine. Mine's not fun. I don't have a fun, I can't think of a funny one, but I can think of a naive. That's kind of in the same vein,

[00:39:42] Anna Toonk: but very different. Maybe they're not funny, but they're offbeat offbeat lessons.

[00:39:46] Nina Endrst: Yeah. Yeah. This one was humbling and I didn't it well.

Okay. So my mom and I, I had a friend who started a, helped to start a, an orphanage, a school that was an orphanage. in Tanzania, in east Africa and she's was amazing. And she still is, I don't really talk to her anymore, but she's like a powerhouse and super, super lovely woman. And, and anyway, she had asked if we wanted to go and volunteer and whatever.

And at the time I was. traveling a lot. And I was like, yeah, I wanna do that. And if I can be up, you know, some sort of help and sure. And so my mom and I went together. First lesson was don't travel to Africa with your mom, but for me was that was a big . Anyway, the lesson was, we get there and if I'm not a fucking fish out of water in the middle of.

East Africa. Like, I didn't know what the fuck I was getting myself into. And I felt so ridiculous. I felt ridiculous. I felt ridiculous that I was there. I felt ridiculous that I was at the school, even though I made like a really seriously true connection. And this was when it like really hit me. There was a little boy there who was maybe like seven years old and he really didn't.

I don't even think he really spoke in Swahili. I think he was, I don't think he was like fully nonverbal, but I don't think he spoke a lot and he was very behind in school and him and I just really connected. It's super weird. Cause when I think about him, I'm like, wow, he like him. And I really just were like magnets and he was attached to me the whole time.

And, and so I was really focused on like being with him, but I wasn't. I don't the people there didn't really want us to be there, like, yeah. And I don't blame them at all because like, what were we gonna do? We were gonna come in like fucking the white saviors and like help for a week. And then, and then leave.

Like, that's not helpful. Like if, if we were giving money, which we did fine, but like being at the school didn't necessarily provide any sort of like service. However, the kids like really loved having us there. So anyway, little boy, William. Lived in a house or not a house, but a space with his mom and their siblings.

His mom was had aids and his, they slept in one bed. I think it was five of them in one bed. And. One day, he didn't show up at school and I was really freaked out and I was trying to regulate myself because like, you know, I didn't want to take up space or be ridiculous, but the woman Alice who ran the school was like, I was like, can I come with you to look for him?

So we're literally just driving around on dirt roads, looking for this little boy. Who's not in school and not at his house. And I just had like such. Fear in me. And we ended up finding him at the school he used to go to. So when he was walking to school that morning, he decided that he saw one of his friends and his friends asked him to go to his old school and he must have felt more comfortable there.

And so he went there and when he came up, he was like, there was like blood on him, but he wasn't hurt, but he had must have like scratched himself or something. And what I learned was it were a couple things. Number one. I was so fucking out of my depth that I felt embarrassed that I would even be in that situation.

And like, I really needed to check all of the things that I, you know, thought about. My, the country that I come from and the privilege that I have, but also just like the, the assumption that like our presence alone would be somehow helpful. Like that really took me down to a couple pegs. I mean, we did some good stuff there and we helped to raise a lot of money for, you know, a house that they needed.

But again, it's like not black and white, but it really. taught me on the, the positive end, how much you can connect with someone that you really like have absolutely nothing in common with. And that was such a beautiful thing that I'll always hold dear. But on the other hand, how these kids were incredibly happy.

Like I've never seen children so happy in my entire life than they were at this school. Certainly not in the states where they seem pretty fucking miserable for the most part. Yeah. Not.

[00:44:29] Anna Toonk: Ooh. Just saying you learned a lot about like why saviorism and

[00:44:34] Nina Endrst: yes I did, but I also learned about like the assumptions we make about cultures.

We don't know mm-hmm right. Yeah. That how sad it must be and how awful it must be. And in reality, yes. Was it like painful to, to come to the understanding that. His family, like a $20 bill would equate to like a month's worth of food. Like that's baffling to me. Yeah. While there's all these like ridiculously expensive places, but also that, yeah, like we are not, we are not the model of what life should be by any fucking stretch.

And that was made crystal clear being in a place that maybe didn't have a lot. Terms of money, but had so much in terms of faith and life that we do not have here and, and probably could never, yeah,

[00:45:29] Anna Toonk: I think it's a pretty valuable lesson for all Americans, you know, outside of the us to see not everybody wants to be American, you know, like, fuck now the story we're sold about.

Africa, uh, first of all, too, like Africa's a continent. So we're sold this idea that Africa is a country in a way it's like it's. Yeah. And it's all, you know, just like dirt and starving children. And it's like, Yeah, it's not, it's, it's a continent and it's got tons of countries and Tanzania is very different than like Senegal and, you know, like they all have their stuff and they all are filled with people that are very happy to be living there.

And I think it was a video of, of a kid in Nigeria who was dancing ballet and incredible. And the internet went crazy and was like someone get. Ju, you know, and all these people, oh, God were like, he goes to the best dance school, like in Legos, like he is being educated. Like, just because he's in Nigeria, don't make assumptions, you know?

[00:46:41] Nina Endrst: Oh obviously, and totally. And I didn't go into it of course thinking, but. It taught me a lot about like, you know, internal bias. Exactly. And like just things that we don't really understand, we think until we're in the situation and then we're like, oh fuck. Like, I didn't think I was gonna be going to like the most depressing place on earth, but I truthfully had no fucking idea.

Right. Yeah. And, and yes, I do think that it really helps to open that channel because I came, I came correct in that. Very humbled from the moment I landed and was like, I am not in a place that I understand and that's okay. I need to like be quiet and observe and listen and ask like where I can be helpful or whatever, but not assume.

And, and we went on a fucking safari cuz my mom insisted. And I was like, I really don't wanna go on a stupid safari. I.

[00:47:39] Anna Toonk: I'm sorry, but you're that far over there. So you might as well. I hated

[00:47:42] Nina Endrst: it. I hated every second of it.

[00:47:44] Anna Toonk: Well, they're, I mean, to be honest, they're a bit of a grind. I've been on a safari as well.

It's a bit of a grind and it's weird. And they make like natives kind of perform free. It's it's not, it doesn't feel good. It does

[00:47:57] Nina Endrst: not feel good at all. And also, I don't know how many fucking elephants I can see. I mean, I like they're majestic beautiful creatures and many other cool animals, but like I can't drive around for 20 fucking hours on a bumpy fricking thing, seeing the same animal burn over again.

It doesn't do it for me. If you have D

[00:48:16] Anna Toonk: D like ,

[00:48:18] Nina Endrst: I mean, like I'm like get the show on the road. She's let's she's listen.

[00:48:22] Anna Toonk: I'm four by these Ella. SA,

[00:48:26] Nina Endrst: but like, literally let's roll out

[00:48:28] Anna Toonk: the tigers. I need

[00:48:30] Nina Endrst: something like, after the first hour I was like, let's go, let's be done. Oh my God.

[00:48:34] Anna Toonk: See, I loved it. I did that aspect of the like riding around.

I mean, I, that, I was very into the, getting up at 5:00 AM and the like, oh gosh. Oh, we're gonna. Stumble upon this, this village of tribe people. I was like, no, this is gross. I'd rather just be, oh,

[00:48:51] Nina Endrst: we actually did. Oh, that's weird. We didn't do that. That's creepy. We actually did, because we were something happened with the bus and we had to stop.

And I actually saw like people from the messai tribe. And I was like, holy shit. Like kids, like walking down the street, like walking down this road. And I was. This is fucking crazy. It was like, totally just by chance. And that also was like, they were just looking right at me. And I was

[00:49:18] Anna Toonk: like, eh, it's CRA. I mean, like I grew up, I don't, I mean, like I grew up obviously super privileged, but I grew up traveling from the, the moment I was born and I give my, my parents.

Much credit cuz they were like, we want you to know you're a part of the world. Like not the center of it. And I think that, you know, like I understand travel, especially now, like flights are so expensive and things like that, but like it, it watch a documentary that I think the more we can all try to remember, there's a million ways to live and no one's really.

You know, cornered the market the better. Cause I think the, the, I know for me, the more open I am. How do I wanna live? What feels good to me? Like the better my life gets versus just thinking I have to like conform to something, you know? And, and also, and also culture also influence that for me.

[00:50:17] Nina Endrst: Like totally.

And, and look why we're where we are in so many ways. Right? Because we just have such narrow views of what a life should be. Mm-hmm and what it is and it's, and you really, I think, have to leave. Obviously Mexico is not far away, but it's a completely different where I was completely when I was there.

Anyway, it was a completely different style of living. And I was like, even just being there was so eye opening, like I don't have to do anything, you know, I don't have to live in this country. I don't have to live in it now. And that's the privilege that I think we have, especially as Americans, at least for now.

we actually can choose to not live here. You know, a lot of people don't have that privilege if they want to leave their, that place. But like, it ain't it, this ain't, it it's, it's, there's a big world out there. Yeah.

[00:51:17] Anna Toonk: You don't have to live any one way and you don't have to be threatened by someone not living the same way as you are.

Imagine how that could work. I mean, sister Spencer, Liz gave me a quote. I really love where she said I try not to say I know because then I stop learning and I think it's a real good thing. The more you're like, I know, I know, especially about something or a place you've never been or a culture you've, you're not, you know, those are maybe some warning signs to go.

Like I should maybe. You know, I should maybe accept, I don't know. And do some research or find out about this, or how can I go into this situation and not be problematic? you know, like exactly. These are things we're doing at this point. I think these are the

[00:52:08] Nina Endrst: questions we're learning to ask ourselves.

Right? Everyone.

[00:52:11] Anna Toonk: Yes. So now exactly all know we have learned.

[00:52:16] Nina Endrst: and that's it. Well, thanks for coming on the journey.

[00:52:19] Anna Toonk: Yeah. Tell us what you're learning. What do you, what do you have to keep learning? I would love Nina and I are so bored of telling each other like, oh, guess what lesson I'm being reminded of this week.

You know, that we'd love to hear. What, what lessons do you keep getting reminded of? Yeah, we would love to hear that. We'd love a break from bullshit.

[00:52:37] Nina Endrst: Yeah, really? Oh, look what Sarah's learning. Yeah.

[00:52:42] Anna Toonk: Bye.

[00:52:43] Nina Endrst: Bye. Bye

that's all for today's

[00:52:49] Anna Toonk: episode. If you're interested in submitting a topic or want to submit a question for our advice episode, please join our membership community@howtobehumanpod.com. Thanks for listening. And remember. Not gurus.