5 Sheila Gregoire

[00:00:00] The Missional Life Podcast, inspiring Kingdom-minded believers around the world to live the mission of God in their lives.

Dan: Welcome back to Mission Life podcast. Today we have Keith and Sheila Gregoire on the show. Keith and Sheila are a powerful voice in Christian marriage and sexual ethics, and their work is transforming how the church talks about intimacy and emotional health relationships. They're the co-authors of the new book, the Marriage You Want, where they combine biblical truth with groundbreaking data to help couples build marriages marked by balance, affection, responsibility, and emotional connection.

Keith, Sheila, welcome to the show. Thank you for inviting us. Absolutely. Hey, we love that you guys are not afraid to tackle big topics with. Both the data and with the word of God. And so we just wanna kick things off. Take us back to a moment in 2019 when you read a popular evangelical book on marriage and were [00:01:00] shocked by what it taught about sex.

Can you take us back to that moment and that day and what changed for you? In that moment.

Shiela: Yeah, I have been blogging about sex and marriage since about 2008. I started off as a mommy blogger, you know, housework, organization, parenting and all that fun stuff. And the more I talked about sex, the more my traffic grew.

So I kind of became this Christian sex space online, which is weird. Like no one grows up thinking, you know what I'm gonna do when I get old? I'm gonna talk about sex and people are gonna listen to me. But I wrote a bunch of books about sex or what the Good Girls Guide to Grade Sex, 31 Days to grade sex.

I was talking mostly about sex and marriage, but the one thing I didn't do was I didn't read a lot of other books. Because I was really afraid of plagiarizing and I just figured they love Jesus. We love Jesus. We're all saying the same thing. And then one Friday afternoon in January of 2019, I had a headache and I didn't wanna work and I was trying to procrastinate and I was on Twitter and people were arguing about whether they needed love or respect, and they were referring to Emerson ER's bestselling evangelical book, love and Respect.

And I thought to myself, I actually have that book upstairs. [00:02:00] This is an awesome way to procrastinate. So I went and got it, and I turned to the sex chapter. I swear it was like a nuclear bomb went off in my living room. 'cause I read, you know, if your husband is typical, he has a need that you don't have that need was for physical release.

If he didn't get physical release, he'd come under satanic attack. And there wasn't a single word about a woman feeling pleasure to not anything about intimacy. It was just this physical transactional thing. And I thought, oh my gosh, if that is what we are teaching about sex. No wonder people are having problems, like what are we gonna do?

And that's what really changed the direction of our organization at Bear Marriage, is we just went big. We decided to research this. So we did the largest survey ever been done of Christian women's marital sexual satisfaction for our first big book, the Great Sex Rescue, surveying 20,000 women to find out are there certain teachings in the church that are actually hurting us.

And what can we teach instead that's more in line with the heart of Jesus. And then this new book, the [00:03:00] Marriage You Want, which I wrote with you Hun.

Dan: Yeah.

Shiela: Is based on, I think it's our fourth study. And this time we did a matched pair, which is really fun. You, you survey both people and the couple and you're able to match their answers so you can see what happens if she believes this, what happens to him if he does this, what happens to her?

And that was really fun.

Dan: Wow. That's awesome. So as you began to do the research, what were some of the different findings that you found in that? Large study.

Shiela: Well, in our first one it was just that there are a lot of teaching specifically around sex that hurt us. Ideas. Like a wife is obligated to give her husband sex when he wants it.

That all men struggle with lust. It's every man's battle that a wife should have frequent sex to keep her husband from watching pornography. Like all of these things result in much lower marital and sexual satisfaction for both men and women. They're just not healthy. It's not in line with what Jesus said, but it has become some of the main teaching around sex in the church.

And what we're trying to do in all of our books is say, let's ditch the, the unhealthy stuff and let's look at what [00:04:00] actually results in good fruit, right? Because Jesus said a good tree can't be or bad fruit, and a bad tree can't be a good fruit. A good tree's gonna bear good fruit. So if something's bearing bad fruit, it's not a good tree.

So let's get rid of that and let's look at what the good tree is.

Dan: So you guys begin to steer a little bit more from a traditional. Christian Sense or some of the books that have become more mainstream, let's call 'em them, and then you offer kind of an alternative model. So can you build that out for us?

Keith: I guess what I would say is that, you know, I'm a physician. When new drugs come in the market, it doesn't matter what people think of them, what matters if they work or not. And in the Christian Church, there's a lot of teaching out there, and there's a lot of debate and there's a lot of, you know, people saying, well, the Bible says this, and the Bible says that.

And there's a lot of theological arguments. And we decided to, we're not theologians, we're biblical, you know, scholars. But as a doctor, I'm just like, well, what actually works? So we decided to take Jesus at his word, which is that you can recognize a tree by its fruit and we'll see, okay, if you believe this.

How does that affect your marriage? If you believe [00:05:00] that, how does that affect your marriage? Without just the idea of, I'm going to believe this because some pastor told me, or some evangelical book I read, said that, and therefore, it must be true what actually works in real life. Because if we believe God is good and if we believe that God is the creator, then the things that bring freedom and healing and life and abundance, those will be the things that God wants for us.

And so we just sort of said. Instead of debating about how you should set up your household according to this teacher or that teacher, well, when you set your household up as a hierarchy where one person's in charge, how does that work? When you set your household up as a partnership, where you work together, how does that work?

And that's sort of the focus we've always taken.

It's been real. And that rubs people the wrong way because a lot of people who believe things very strongly and they think that this is the only biblical way to do things. The data just shows that those marriages aren't as successful and aren't as happy and aren't as satisfied.

And that is [00:06:00] a real hard pill to swallow for people,

Dan: basically. So one of the things that people often say, or you might just hear in a, if kind of the underlying tone or message might be, Hey, everything will be okay if you both just work harder. Right, and it, that isn't necessarily how it works. You know, we're not necessarily supposed to be individually working harder.

The real change happens when we collectively, when we work together and as a team. So we were just wondering if you could begin to build that out. What does it begin to look like as we not just try to do things harder ourselves, but as we work together and we focus on each other? And building the us, not just the myself.

Shiela: And so often what we're taught is that in marriage, God wants women to do these things and men to do these things. And so working harder means women do more of their things and men do more of their things. That doesn't work, quite frankly. It doesn't work because often what they mean is that. Men are supposed to lead, women are supposed to submit, men have, you know, a need for [00:07:00] domestic support.

So men aren't really built to do housework in the same way that women are. And so men instead are supposed to look after finances. You know, all these things that we're often taught. And when you look at marriages where the husband makes the final decision, even if he consults with the wife first. Those marriages do work.

They have a 7.4 times higher divorce rate, and we're not the only ones who found that. John Gottman, the world's premier marriage searcher, found that in marriages like that, you have an 82% chance of divorce. The people who believe that, the majority of them do not practice it. So people may say that they believe the husband should make the final decision, but most of them actually function as teammates.

And those marriages do okay. They do quite well. So when you function as teammates, when you make decisions together, you do better. And the other big thing we found is that this idea of gender roles where she does this and he does this, that doesn't work nearly as well, even in marriages where they act out traditional gender roles.

So maybe he does the paid work, she does most of the childcare and housework. As [00:08:00] long as that is a choice, you're doing okay. But as soon as you feel, no, God told us to do this. That's where we see marriages start to suffer because then you're not doing it because, Hey babe, you know, we have a family. We need to get the bills paid.

We need to get the laundry done. We want our kids looked after. What is the best way we can do that? Given who we are with our own giftings, with our own circumstances, with our own education, with the city where we live in? What is the best way to figure that out? As long as you're asking that question.

You're probably gonna do okay, but if you start from the idea that God wants us to do it this way, you're not, because then you don't get to be real. You don't get to be yourself. You have to put on a mask. And that doesn't tend to work.

Keith: And the thing too is the wonderful thing about marriage is that we can be strong when the other is weak.

Like we can really be there for each other in those difficult times. But if you have the mentality that one person's always supposed to be the leader, then when that person's having heart, what happens to them? [00:09:00] You know? How does that work? Mm-hmm. You, there's give and take. There's times where. I take the lead in the spiritual devotions around the table, and there's times when she does, and there's times when the different things ebb and flow over the course of your marriage.

When we first got married, I was in residency and I was working over a hundred hours a week. I didn't wash a dish for four years, right? Like I didn't do a single lick housework because I just was constantly working. And then when I was home, Sheila and I both decided we wanted me to be with the kids because I wanted my kids to not be fatherless, right.

But then as I got into practice, I did more and more. And then now that Sheila's becoming the big successful writer and speaker, and I'm actually sort of semi-retired, I do more of the housework. So that's just one example. But what happens is if you have a marriage that's meant to be a team. You can reallocate your resources, your, you can maximize your skills, your giftings, your talents mm-hmm.

Based upon what works for you. But if you're trying to fit these rigid gender roles of men, only do this and [00:10:00] never do that and women must do this and not do that, it's just eyes one or both your arms behind your back. Mm-hmm. And it is just not helpful. And you know, we've just shown in our it, we've always felt that.

The really cool thing is to do these studies where we see time and time again. Yep. That's just reality. That's the way it is. And it's true. If you have a marriage that we're gonna be true teammates then, then we're gonna pick each other up when we're weak. Now the other side of that, of course, is you do need to be holding up your side of the team.

If you coast and let your spouse do all the work, that's not gonna be a strong marriage either. So you both have responsibility. It's a real balance. That's actually the first quarter of the book. It's about the balance of making those things.

Amanda: Yeah. That's so good. Like going back, how would you say those rigid gender roles developed?

From people using the biblical standpoint and how can we shift to more of what God is really saying in his word? You know, as far as being teammates, being where it talks about, you know, the wife being the help me, you know, and Eve was created because [00:11:00] Adam, it wasn't good for him to be alone, but how do we move from that kind of rigid mindset of this is what this book says, and that book says, based on these scriptures, but how do we.

Base, the working as a team on God's

Shiela: work. I come back to Ephesians two 10, right? Mm-hmm. That God has works that he created for us to do before the very foundation of the world. And we are individually made, and we all have different giftings. We all have different experiences. We all have a different story, and that's gonna lead us to our lives looking very different from each other.

God created a universe. With so much diversity, everything is different. You know, you look at purple flowers, no two are the same, right? They're all gorgeous, but they're all different. And there's no reason to think that as couples we should all look the same either because God has given, like you guys, you guys are missions in, in Belize, we're writers in Ontario, Canada.

Keith's a physician who flies up north to work in the indigenous communities in Ontario. You know, God has different [00:12:00] things for all of us to do, and if we're all trying to fit a certain mold, it's not gonna work. Let me do some math. 'cause I like this math part. It's one of my favorite parts of the book.

But you know, the thought that, well, God just made men to be logical and women to be emotional, right? Mm-hmm. And we hear this and we often accept it at face value, but is it even true? You know, are men more the thinkers and women are the feelers? Well, the Myers Big Briggs personality type inventory as a personality test and it actually measures, one of its measures is whether you're more emotional or whether you're more of a thinker, a mother feeler thinker.

And we found a study that used about 60,000 people, and in it about 56% of men are thinkers. So it is the majority, but it's not a lot of majority. And about 73% of women are feelers. So again, the majority, but it's not all. Well, if you remember back to middle school, how do you tell the chance of two things occurring at the same time?

You multiply them together. So what is the chance of a thinker, man marrying a feeler woman? [00:13:00] You multiply 56 by 73, and again, I might have some of these numbers wrong, but you end up with, I think it was like 42 or 43%. So that means every single sermon that you have ever heard. About men being logical and women being emotional does not apply to about 57 to 58% of couples, and yet we teach like this all the time.

And how much better would it be to just simply teach about, Hey, when you're different in this area, how can you find common ground? How can you look at the strengths of the fact that your spouse may see the world differently? From the way that you do, and how can you use that for the best? You know, we don't need to make things gendered when they're not gendered.

Oh, go ahead.

Keith: I think that answers gets back to the question, like it's how do you come to the Bible and argue against other people who are saying that I'm arguing from the Bible. But I think you need to recognize that when people have rigid gender roles, they're reading that into the Bible, right?

They're coming to the [00:14:00] Bible with those assumptions and they're seeing them there. Right? Mm-hmm. If you come to the Bible with a different set of assumptions, you're gonna see different things. So, for instance, there's a lot of debate about what women can and can't do in the church, but just consider the fact that there's a lot of places in the Bible that talks about spiritual gifts.

Many, many places, and in none of them, does it ever divide them up by gender? So we have to be careful about how we talk about the Bible, because sometimes we assume things are biblical, but it's kind of the way we read the Bible, right?

Shiela: Yeah. And in the book, we didn't try to get into this too much.

Yeah. 'cause we're not theologians, we're not great scholars. Yeah. So we're just saying, Hey, let's just look at where the data goes. Because that is important and we wanna paint you a picture of what healthy marriages look like. You know? And healthy marriages don't look like rigid gender rules, but healthy marriages look like, okay, we are together, we have these different giftings.

Now how can we use them to figure out what God wants for us uniquely as a couple? You

Amanda: know, that's such an interesting point to make. 'cause as you were saying that, so Dan [00:15:00] is actually taught on spiritual giftings in a couple different churches here in Belize. And really helped church members see like where they lean towards and like how they're wired.

So it's interesting that you say that because you know, if a church should operate that way and seeing what the different gifts are, that everyone has a valid spot, you know that there's no. Gift that's more important than another. How much more in a marriage that actually is an institution that is older than the church.

Yeah, exactly.

Dan: That's great. One of the main points you hit in your book is about the friendship you want, and this is kind of an overlooked thing. I so just wondering, why do you think friendship is so underemphasized in Christian marriage teaching and how can couples that have been lacking friendship or not.

Been walking in friendship. How can they reconnect and do reconnect emotionally and in friendship after many years? I have a bunch of theories

Shiela: on this. Yeah. Okay. So I think that that friendship can [00:16:00] be scary because friendship requires that you actually show each other who you are. You know, like friends know each other and sometimes knowing each other is scarier than doing life together, or even than having sex together.

Because having sex, you can make it purely a physical thing. That's not a good thing to do, but a lot of couples do that. They trade closeness, like the emotional closeness for the feeling, the shortcut of sex. Because sex can be incredibly bonding. Absolutely. But a lot of people channel their emotional needs for connection into sex so that they don't have to do the hard work of connection and friendship requires some hard work.

You've gotta be able to say, Hey, this is who I am, this is what I'm thinking. I want you really to know me. And that requires vulnerability. It requires emotional awareness. And for a lot of people, that's a scary thing 'cause we didn't grow up with it.

You know, maybe you grew up in a family where your emotions were bad.

The only emotion you were [00:17:00] allowed to have was happy or joyful. You were never allowed to complain. You were never allowed to be upset. You were never allowed to be bored. You were never allowed to feel rejected because these things were threatening to your parents, and so you just never learned how to figure out what you're feeling.

So now whenever you feel something, you don't even know how to express it, and so you shut it down. And so it's very difficult to be friends when you haven't figured out that emotional piece of yourself. And we do take people through in the marriage you want how to develop that emotional awareness individually and also as a couple so that you can feel connected.

Mm-hmm. So that's one problem. I think the other problem is that we often do focus so much on gender roles and on hierarchy that we miss friendship.

And we miss just how fun it is just to be together. And the final thing is, I think we put so much pressure on couples.

Dan: Yeah. You

Shiela: know, I remember when, when we got married, we were told you need to do one date night a week, one night away a month and one week away a year.

That's expensive. Yeah. Like, forget how much time that takes. That's [00:18:00] a lot of babysitters you're paying for. And we had my mom, but even she wasn't able to take them for a week every year. Like that's a lot when grandparents are working. Friendship always was this thing that you had to add to your life. So you had your regular life and then you had to add all of this other stuff to make sure that you were caring for you as a couple.

And what we try to say in the marriage you want is, you know what? Some people like that, and that's more power to them. But as one couple told us, marriage is the art of being boring together, you know? And like sometimes friendship is just doing everyday life together and just spending time together and laughing and it doesn't have to be a big deal.

Keith: Yeah, yeah. Wow. Because? Because I think that's a big part of it is people just get busy. Right. And I think all these teachings about you have to have these date nights and stuff. They're trying to address a legitimate need, which is, we're too busy to connect, but then by adding more things to do, they just make it harder.

So we try to make it much easier in the books.

Shiela: Yeah. We say, let's not add things to your life. Let's just do life differently so that you end up spending more time [00:19:00] together. Yeah.

Amanda: That is so good. Just doing life differently so that you can spend more time together versus, Hey, we're not gonna see each other for six days.

But on this night, we'll see each other finally, and there might be seasons for that. I'm sure that was the case when you were in residency. You know, that's not by any means, an easy task to be doing week by week, but. Just keeping in mind, those are just for seasons and that's not a long-term solution.

It's not a long-term plan, but as you guys said, like what works right now and how can we get more time on a regular basis?

Shiela: Yeah. One of the weird things, we, we weren't actually expecting to find this strong, a co-relation but we found like going to bed together at the same time. Is so protective for all kinds of things.

Couples who go to bed together, they have sex more, they're more likely to enjoy sex, they're more likely to have conversations like they're more likely to be in the top marital satisfaction category. Like it's so good and yet. Not a lot of couples do that anymore. Like where, when we were first married, the [00:20:00] internet didn't exist 'cause we're old.

Right? Like, so we didn't have the internet. So everybody went to bed either at 10 20 after the local news or at a, after Johnny Carson's monologue on the Tonight Show we lived

Keith: in Canada. So it was, or after the hockey game. Yeah.

Shiela: Or after the hockey game. Right. And so because when the thing was over on tv, there was nothing else.

To do, there was nothing else keeping you awake, so then you would go to bed, and so couples tended to go to bed together. Today, the Internet's 24 7 video games are 24 7, and so a lot of couples kind of go to bed separately. And I think we miss the intimacy that can come from just brushing your teeth together, you know, getting into bed at the end of a long day, sharing what your worries are about tomorrow, what your plans are.

For tomorrow, debriefing about today, you know, praying together. All these things that can naturally happen quite easily when you're going to bed together, really do build your marriage. And I know that's not possible for people with shift work all the time. And I know that there can be things that come in the way.

So we're not saying that you have to go to bed together. Yeah. But if you're not able to then think about what are we missing by not going to bed together and how can we put that [00:21:00] into other times in our life?

Dan: Wow. So good. Yeah. Well, we talked about being. Boring together. Now let's go to the other end of the spectrum.

You have a section of the book, list some ingredient of great sex. Can you share some of those ingredients and speak to that a little?

Shiela: Yeah. Do you want me to do Twitter or, well, you, this is, they

Keith: love the first sentence of that chapter that Sheila wrote. You shouldn't emphasize sex in your marriage.

Shiela: Shouldn't. Yeah. She shouldn't prioritize sex.

Keith: She's sex rich.

Shiela: Yeah. Instead, prioritize the ingredients of great sex.

Keith: Mm.

Shiela: Because how do we judge whether or not you have a good sex life? We tend to look to frequency. Yeah. But the only thing frequency tells us is whether or not he had an orgasm. How often he has an orgasm.

That's the only thing it tells us, for sure, because in in Evangel couples, we have a 47 point orgasm gap. Whereby 95% of men say they almost always are always orgasm in a given sexual encounter compared to just 48% of women. So that's a lot of women who aren't having a very good time and frequency doesn't tell us if they feel emotionally connected during sex.

16% of women said that their primary emotion after sex is feeling [00:22:00] used. So for them, they would feel more emotionally connected if they didn't have sex than if they did. So the issue that we shouldn't be looking at frequency, we should be looking at what makes great sex. Yeah, and I like to summarize it by three different things.

First of all, that it's pleasurable for both. Okay. So they both should be having a good time that it is intimate. So you know, you feel truly known. You don't feel like you're being used. You don't feel like someone's bringing porn into the bedroom, or someone is just bringing, you know, objectification or a pornified style of relating.

No. This is us truly loving and knowing each other and it's totally mutual. This is something that you both want, that you're both jumping into, that you both desire. And so how can we build those three elements of sex? That's really the question. Because frequency, while it is often thought to be the problem, you know, that one person doesn't want sex enough, that we're not having sex enough, frequency is actually a symptom of something else going on.

Because when you do feel emotionally connected during sex, when she [00:23:00] frequently reaches orgasm, when there's no sexual dysfunction, when there's no porn use and when there's high marital satisfaction, desire and frequency take care of themselves. So frequency isn't the problem. The other things are the issues that we need to work on.

Dan: There's been some things taught and things experienced, some of them things taught like sex is a duty and then there's been some things that have been experienced. Maybe somebody's been. Raped or they've had past traumatic experiences. Well, how can individual can couples get over those types of bad teachings and bad experiences?

Shiela: Yeah, I mean, if you bring trauma, sexual trauma into your relationship, please see a licensed therapist if you can. There's really good therapies now for trauma, EMDR of tapping therapies. There's lots of things that you can do to actually help 'cause trauma's stored in the body. So if you're a victim of sexual abuse and both men and women can be victims.

Often that trauma is stored in the body, and it's not that you just need to pray more or that you just need to think differently about it. Like you actually [00:24:00] need to let your body release that trauma because God made us complex creatures and there are some really good therapies that can help a lot of women too.

Especially have been taught this obligation sex message that you're, you know, do not deprive each other. And we think that what that verse is saying is that if he wants intercourse or if he wants a sexual favor, I can't say no. And many of our books have taught that even in the postpartum period. So she's just recovering from childbirth.

She needs to make sure that his needs are taken care of and that. Belief is traumatic. Evangelical women suffer from sexual pain disorders at about two to two and a half times the rate of the general population such that 23% of Evangelical women suffer from sexual pain. 7% to the point that intercourse is impossible.

This is very rarely talked about, but this is largely an evangelical problem, and what we found is that the obligation sex message is largely responsible for it. There's other ones too, the modesty message, et cetera, but obligation sex plays a big role, and if you believe the obligation sex message, your [00:25:00] chance of experiencing sexual pain increases to basically the same extent as if you had been abused.

Because women's bodies experience obligation as trauma. Because what abuse does and what obligation does is it says to the woman, you don't matter. He has the right to use you however he wants. And that is a traumatic message. And she can experience that as trauma, even if he never believes it. And this is what we found, is that if you grow up in a church that teaches this, you can enter marriage believing that you're obligated to give him this.

Even if he would never want you to believe that, even if it's not a dynamic in your marriage, you still come into marriage believing that and it hurts you. And so you know, talking to your spouse about this, is this really something you believe or is this something I've internalized? Our first book, the Great Sex Rescue, goes over this a lot.

So does the marriage you want, but in detail in the great sex rescue and just how can we break that belief and how can we embrace a relationship and a sex life which is focused on [00:26:00] mutuality rather than obligation. And set ourselves free.

Keith: Yeah. And one of the, the best things that the men can do out there is just letting their wives know that I don't want this as something for me.

I want this as something for us. That means for you too, right? Like, so I don't ever want you to feel obligated. I don't ever want you to feel this is done at a duty. Nobody wants that. And a lot of times we found in the focus groups that women had internalized this, and they've been taught this and they felt this, and they brought it into their sex lives.

And when their husband said. Are you kidding? That's the last thing I think. Like, I don't want you to feel obligated if you don't want to. If we're in the middle and you're like, Nope, I'm not in it tonight. I want you to tell me. 'cause I, I don't want this to be an US thing, not a me thing. And when women see that their husbands really, truly mean that.

I mean, their libidos just skyrocket because it's now, it is something that they're doing out of their own desire, not out of a sense of having to do so. And unfortunately, there are guys out there who do feel like this is a need that I have and I have to [00:27:00] get it, and if my wife won't give it to me. They feel hard done by, or they feel like they pressure their wives.

And I would just counsel those men to take a long, hard look. And what is it, what's making you do that? Because if you wanna love your wife as yourself, you know, Paul said, who doesn't take care of their own body? The husband should love his wife like his own body. Why is it that you wanna push her into that?

I think that probably means there's some things in your heart you need to work on and be open to letting the Holy Spirit work in those areas of your life. A really good sex life grows out of a really good relationship. It's a part of the relationship. It's not a separate thing. It's not just need. I like food and water, need to get a certain amount of it.

It's an expression of the love you have for each other. If you wanna have the best sex life possible from the ground up, you build a great relationship that flowers into a mutual satisfying.

Physical intimacy as well.

Dan: From the data that you collected in the surveys, was there any kind of indication of.

People who had good sex lives, did they implement any type of. Strategies in terms of [00:28:00] scheduling and frequency, did they target anything like that? What did you find in your research with that?

Shiela: Targeting doesn't usually work. It, it's, it's really more organic than that. You know, people who really enjoy sex and who have a good marriage tend to have more sex, you know?

And our study, like there's multiple studies out there that kind of find that once a week is the magic number. Like beyond once a week having more sex. Yes, it makes your marriage happier, but only like a little bit. Below once a week, having less sex is really, you know, does detract from marital satisfaction.

But it's difficult. Like, again, frequency though isn't the main thing because in general, the more that you're connected in other ways, the more libido's gonna grow. And then frequency just doesn't show up as a big factor. Like for instance, we, we looked at all of the women in our survey who said they had really low desire level, and then we said, Hey, do you orgasm when you have sex?

And we asked, do you feel emotionally connected during sex? We asked, do you have pain during sex? And just from those three questions, we got rid of [00:29:00] 85% of the women. So those three questions explained 85% of the women who said that they don't have a high sex drive, if we were to also ask about porn, if we were to also ask about, you know, mental load and housework, we probably could have explained the rest.

So again, we need to come back to the ingredients of grade sex rather than just focusing on frequency. Because when you get the ingredients right, everything else tends to take care of itself. Yeah. It's just when you focus on sex outside of the rest of the relationship, it doesn't tend to go well.

Keith: And I think just to get a little bit specific you know, our, our definition of what is good sex probably needs to change in a lot of relationships.

So if I said to you don't answer this question 'cause it's kind of intense, but did you have sex last night? Don't answer. But if I said that, you're probably thinking something very specific, right? To be blunt, you're thinking of intercourse. And so, but like Sheila said earlier, if that's our marker of what sex is, it's really just saying whether one person's having a fun time or not.

Sex life should be everything that we do together sexually, to bring each other pleasure and to [00:30:00] enjoy each other and to grow deeper in our intimacy with each other. And if you have that mentality, then, you know, maybe, I know there's a lot of guys out there whose sex lives. Turned around when they realized that I need to slow down and realize it's more than just the main event and, and taking the time to make sure that both of you're enjoying yourselves and both getting a good experience and just that practical side of it can just make things better too.

Shiela: Yeah. And we go into the sexual response cycle and all of that, and then Rich, you want as well, and it's

Keith: not, you know, medical in a sense, it's hard to understand, but it's medical in a sense that it doesn't creep out. It's pretty just straightforward. Yeah. Yeah.

Dan: I wanna pivot away from that a little bit, but.

One of the things that we heard, and I would still stand by when we did our premar marital counseling many years ago, you always hear this like marriage is 50 50. And what they said was not, that's not correct at all. Marriage is a hundred, a hundred. And I love how you guys both, you put that into your book in a lot of ways, or at least I think there's a belief in that, that it takes everything from both of you

in, [00:31:00] not just in the bedroom, but in life in general. And one of the things you talk about is being dependable and being dependable, and just because when your spouse is not dependable, that really can break that intimate cycle. If you know that they're gonna drop the ball, man, that can really create a lot of intimacy issues because now all of a sudden you don't wanna talk about this because you know it's gonna lead to this and it's, so I'm just wondering, what have you found as far as dependability and how can someone, a couple that's.

Struggled with dependability issues, move away from that and experience more success in that area of their marriage.

Shiela: Yeah. Really, when we're talking about dependability, what we mean is that people need to take initiative. Okay? You need to just notice. Put on your glasses and notice what's going on in the relationship.

Be the one to notice that, oh, my 11-year-old, my 13-year-old are not getting along. Maybe I should figure that out. Right, as opposed to just, oh, that's not my problem. I'm more, oh, there's a science fair coming up. Maybe I should help my kid with their science project. Instead of saying, oh, that's not my job.

Notice what is happening in your [00:32:00] family and notice what is happening with yourself, and how can I make sure that I am taking care of myself in the best way that I can so that I'm not adding stuff to my spouse's plate. You know, when I was 40 years old, my back started to go out a lot. At different times and it was really impeding.

Like if I was making a Turkey dinner, I wouldn't often be able to enjoy it. 'cause I'd be up in bed afterwards and I could have chosen, oh, well I guess this is just what I'm like, I guess we just won't have family dinners anymore. But I knew that if I did that at 40, what would I be like at 80? We enjoy hiking together, so I decided, no, I gotta actually do something about this.

So I started exercising more. I did yoga class. I did everything that I could to try to help my back not go out. And it's gotten a lot better. It still goes out sometimes, but it's a lot better now than it used to be. But that's part of marriage too, right? I didn't learn to drive till I was older and I was never really that comfortable driving.

We lived for a long time in a very large city where most people just took public transit. So driving wasn't a big deal. But when we moved to [00:33:00] where we live now, if I didn't learn to drive more, my kids and I were gonna be stuck at home while he was at work. And so I needed to learn to drive so that I wasn't relying on him to drive us around.

And that's like a little thing, but it's like, can we all just take initiative to be the best form of ourselves that we can? Because it is a gift to your spouse instead of saying, oh, I don't need to do this now because my spouse can do it. I can step back in this situation and I don't need to, I can just rely on my spouse.

Instead of doing that, say, what can I do to make myself the best person I can be to be able to live a God's purposes for my life to help my spouse? What can I do? And if we're always approaching marriage with that mindset together, we're gonna do so much better.

Keith: And, and if you've got a really grace-filled relationship with each other, like you, you bear with each other, you care about each other, we're not gonna be a hundred percent dependable a hundred percent of the time.

Mm-hmm. Like, I'm gonna forget to bring the milk home, which after work, or like, we're gonna make little mistakes. But we forgive each other and we move past it because we know we're both working [00:34:00] to become better every day, to be a better husband, to be a better wife. We, we trust each other because we see time and time again.

I'm putting the energy, the effort, the care to be the best spouse I can be to you. And I'm not perfect, but I'm better than I was yesterday. And hopefully I'm not as good as I'll be tomorrow. And we're always doing that. And I think it's such an encouraging thing and it motivates you. To continue going on when you see your spouse doing the same.

It can really bring a lot of power to your marriage when you have that sort of mentality.

Dan: Wow, that's amazing. As we begin to close out, I'm wondering, Sheila? If you could speak to the woman out there who's struggling in her marriage.

He was in a marriage that. Is maybe on the fence. They don't know which way it's gonna go. How can she get out of that pit and begin to craft the marriage that she wants? And Keith, can you speak to the man that's on the fence? He's considering walking away from the marriage, speak life and speak hope into his marriage?

Shiela: I think the big thing that I would wanna say is that God does care when we are upset. You know, if we've been treated badly or if we just feel like we're alone in [00:35:00] life. God sees that and God cares. God isn't angry at you. 'cause I think often when we have relationship problems, we assume that God's mad because we haven't made our marriage work.

And I wish that we could see that no, God actually cares. And he's right there beside you with that. And I think he also wants to help you stir things up a little bit. Because if your marriage isn't going well, there's still a dance that's going on in your marriage. Where you each know your part. That doesn't mean the dance is good.

It doesn't mean it's fun. It doesn't mean it leads to joy, but you've kind of worked at this way of relating to each other. And when you do this, he does this. When he does this, you do this, and it's this dance that you have. And if you wanna break that cycle, you need to stop the dance and you need to say, no, we're not gonna do this anymore.

So if you are not happy, the question isn't, how can I get my spouse to change? The question is, what am I gonna do to change the dynamics? So that our marriage will start to shift, or, you know, if you're really unhappy and you've drawn boundaries [00:36:00] and things still are not good, then maybe that's a sign that no, this really is still bad.

He's still using the porn. He's never gonna give up the porn. He's still having an affair, he's still abusive, whatever it might be, and that this may be something I can't fix. But you're never gonna come to that realization. You're never gonna heal, or you're never going to fully see the red flags until you break that dynamic that's going on right now and do something different.

So we talk about, you know, how to bring up issues in your marriage if you're upset, how to draw boundaries what's reasonable to expect, and. Just get some better clarity here 'cause there are a lot of people, both men and women in marriages that are not healthy. And sometimes the best thing that we can do is to see that and to see God's heart for that too.

Keith: Wow, that was good. I dunno if I can beat that. Right. What I would say for the guys is, you know, I think a lot of the marriage teaching out there for guys who are in that situation is pretty typically just be more of a leader. That's kind of what I've heard most of the time. And I think a lot of guys take that a very specific way and it [00:37:00] means to start bossing your wife around more and they would never say it that way, but that's kinda what they try and put into practice.

And you know, guess what? That doesn't work. It makes things worse. You know, I think for guys, I, I think the main thing that men run from vulnerability and they run from emotional closeness because we're not trained how to do that. And it's scary for us and it's a lot safer to be a leader. Who's detached?

But if you can lead by being vulnerable. If you can open your heart is issue entitlement. That's a big word, I guess, but like, if you can look at do I feel entitled, and we didn't talk about this earlier, but you know, early on in our, in our relationship, a lot of the problems we had early in our marriage were, because I had a sense of entitlement that I didn't even realize I had.

I thought I was just. This is just the way that marriage worked. But it's like, no, I was a very entitled person. I was expecting things that I didn't have a servant heart. I didn't have the mind of Christ, and I needed to get that. And so I would say to guys, you know, if your focus is trying to be the [00:38:00] leader, well lead like Christ Wash Feet, you know?

Humble yourself, open yourself up, be vulnerable, and care and work on those aspects of the relationship. I think that's where you're gonna really hit paid dirt and turn things around. I'm so glad you brought that up. This well said.

Dan: I think you did with a tie. I'm gonna call it a tie. She was with amazing.

But I think you were right up there. Don't cut yourself short. Yeah. I'm really glad you brought that up here because I think it's an important point. With leadership, you know, oftentimes in cultures, particularly even in Latin cultures, but I think around the world there's this idea of machismo, this idea of being strong.

And you know, even in nature, the females that are attracted to, they want to make with the strong male, we see this in nature. And so we as humans, almost sure that other people have taken that role and say, Hey. Like be strong and this will cause your wife to cling, or this will cause them to want to follow.

And so that's really in our society. But also you flipped it over and said that servant leadership is the way to do, but even in that situation, [00:39:00] couples can come to a point of decision making. There's no real clear way, and one partner believes this way, one thinks that way. She goes this way. How do you make a decision more than there's a stalemate?

Because I know traditional books have kind of said, Hey, the husband has the ultimate decision, he's the strong leader in that, and he should have that final voice. So what is your take and what is your approach and strategy to that situation?

Shiela: Yeah, it varies. We ask people, you know, what do you do? In that situation, we had all kinds of different answers.

So I'll just throw some of them out there because I don't think there is a one size fits all. It really depends what we're talking about. But some general principles are we don't go forward if we don't agree. Mm-hmm. So we wait, you know, we pray about it, we talk more about it. We seek outside counsel and you like, we've been married 33 years and we just have never had to use him as the tiebreaker.

And we've had to decide some pretty big things like do we put our son on the heart transplant list? We initially disagreed like, like we're talking life and death things, but in time you do figure them [00:40:00] out or circumstances change or something. So you wait if you can, if you can't and some things you just go with the person who knows more.

Right. If it's something medical we defer to him, right? If it's something that I know more about, we defer to me, or if it's something that's gonna affect one of us more, right? Like if you're, if you're trying to make a decision of what city do we move to? Well is one of you, you know, if, if it means leaving her family and her family does all of the babysitting and she relies on them for community, that's affects her a ton.

So, you know, let's defer to the person it affects more. Or you know, I think in a lot of cases. We just rush into decisions too quickly, and there's really, the vast majority of people say there has never been a single time in our marriage where someone has had to make a decision that we couldn't just agree on, or we couldn't just say, yeah, you know what, I have this opinion, but honestly, your opinion's stronger and it matters more to you.

So let's just go with what you say and that's fine. And I

Keith: think that the teaching specifically of if you get to an impasse, the husband needs to make the decision. I [00:41:00] think that can be really harmful in a lot of ways. And one of 'em is that, you know, when you're in a relationship and you do get to an impasse, that's an uncomfortable place to be like, nobody likes that.

So our tendency is let's get rid of this bad feeling, right? And if we have a quick, easy out, I'm just gonna make the decision and then it's gonna go away. Right. Like she might be upset because it didn't go the way she wanted, or you know, whatever. But that's still better than this tension. We don't like this tension.

Right? But the thing is that in that tension, when you actually have to live there, you have to work things out. Like, why is this important to you? Why is this such a big deal? Like, why don't you see it the way I see? There's such an incredible potential, mm-hmm. To grow in intimacy because I'm gonna see why you're thinking this way, why you don't see it the way I do.

I'm gonna learn more about you. I'm gonna learn more about me. It's an incredible time for growth, but it's uncomfortable and we don't like that. So my fear is if you have the tiebreaker mentality, you are gonna short circuit all these wonderful opportunities for personal [00:42:00] and relational growth with a quick and easy.

Fix, which is just gonna make you weaker long term because you're not gonna develop those muscles of working through things and coming to true unity around this decision.

Shiela: Yeah, and that is something that our data showed, is that couples who defer to him in that situation tend to have more markers of emotional immaturity.

So, you know, they haven't grown in the same way. So I just thought that was interesting.

Keith: And it's, it's hand in glove, right? You need to do both. So you need to develop. A sense of security in your relationship treating each other well, you know, showing grace, you know, have security so that when you're in that tense time, you could say, okay, it's okay to feel tense now because I know we're solid.

Dan: And we're

Keith: gonna work this through, right? Mm-hmm. So, but also if you have that mentality of. We're not gonna just default to one person, we're actually gonna work it through those two things together. They, they build each other and you grow stronger and stronger every year.

Amanda: Yeah. And with that, I think ultimately it helps your personal relationship grow with Christ, which also strengthens your marriage because you're seeking [00:43:00] God out in prayer.

Like, Lord, please direct us, give us the wisdom we need. We trust that you'll lead us in the right direction. So it's a growth in the marriage, but foundationally, it's such an amazing way to grow and knowing. Christ more and knowing scripture more and being grounded in the word, which then helps perpetuate the healthy cycle of marriage, right?

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Dan: So good. So well said. Well, the book, the Marriage you Want listeners, make sure you go get it. Now a few fun questions here as we wrap up. Okay. Lay 'em on us. Alright man. We've heard a lot of numbers, stats thrown around, so I'm just wondering to, Keith, have you ever tried using data or science to win an argument?

Your spouse, how did that go for you?

Shiela: Oh gosh. We

Dan: do like, I'm sure

Shiela: we have. Yeah, I'm sure I've looked stuff up. I just can't Anything specific.

Keith: Yeah. I think the big thing too is that when you're bringing the data is you're both trying to find the right [00:44:00] answer. You're not trying to beat your spouse, right?

We wanna find the right answer now. I think I've got the right answer and she thinks she's got the right answer. But if we have the mentality of we're trying to get the right answer, not trying to win. Then even if I lose, we both win because we got the right answer. Right. So that's the mentality you're trying to I'm

Shiela: sure you brought out spot, I brought up medical stuff.

Yeah, I

Keith: know, but the data shows that for this treatment, this and that, and like I, the medical stuff, I know I've done that. I'm, I'm just playing. But I love the wording. I'm sure you

Dan: have done, I didn't even notice that. I'm just playing. Alright, that's good. What's the weirdest quote marriage tip you've ever heard at a Christian conference that made you do a double take or a double eye roll?

Shiela: Oh, it's gotta be the postpartum stuff. Oh

Dan: yeah. That was just icky.

Shiela: Icky. That's like, ugh.

Keith: So what she means by that is all the evangelical books that say, you know, when you're postpartum, just make sure you know your husband's not getting any anymore, so he's gonna be tempted to porn. And so ladies, make sure you do whatever you can to keep him happy.

Okay? The weird is I got a weirder one and that me is just crazy. Like, I [00:45:00] don't know why guys are not saying that's not what. My Christianity. Yeah. Makes me wanna be like for a husband.

Shiela: Okay. It's the idea that what a man needs to feel like, like they're having fun together is for his wife to be there with him.

Yes. Watching him do whatever it is he's doing, but not saying a word. So if he's reading a book, she needs to sit in the living room and watch him reading a book, but she can't say anything. Or if he's painting a wall, she has to sit and watch him paint the wall, but she can't say anything. So just her silence speaks volumes.

Yeah. That's bizarre, and that's from love and respect too. Like the one of men's greatest needs is to have the wife be there watching him do stuff without her doing anything, just watching him.

Keith: That's weird. What makes me roll my eyes is just stuff that it's so insulting to men, but men kind of seem to support it.

Dan: Yeah.

Keith: You know, like the whole, I like the whole idea of like, you know, you need to take care of your man when you're postpartum. It's like as I just like, why are guys like, are we that? [00:46:00] You know, like, we can't control ourselves for six weeks. Like, come on, dudes. Like, you know, like, we're better than that, aren't we?

It's just like, and these people say these things and I'm like, what? What? And then everyones like, yeah, yeah. Like, I'm a manly man. Like I want this, you know, like it's, I think we could be so much better

Dan: than

Keith: that. Yeah.

Dan: Yeah. I. Raising the book. I love it. Alright, one more. If we made a Christian marriage bingo card, what would be the center square?

And I want you guys to wait, well, I'm 72 hour rule. I'm gonna give you three options here and I want you guys each to chime in here. If we made a Christian marriage bingo card, what would be the center square? One husband as Priest of the home. Mm-hmm. Okay. Cheat Knight, fix everything. Or three, just pray harder or we'll give you four.

You add something.

Shiela: Oh gosh. I would say the husband as priest of the home. 'cause we see that everywhere and that kind of is the basis. For when everything goes off track, but the, just pray

Keith: more. I don't know. I'd almost go with that too. If it's the center, it's supposed to be like the [00:47:00] free space, like, you know, it's going to the Just pray more probably the, just pray more is gonna be in.

Yeah, that's right up there with that is don't expect so much.

Shiela: Yeah.

Keith: Right.

Shiela: Mm-hmm.

Keith: You know, lower your expectations. They don't say it that way, but it's like, you know, or the really spiritual way they say it is, find your rest in God.

Shiela: Yeah. Only God can be your nature, you know? So

Keith: frustrated with your spouse, you know, it's basically, I pray more.

Shiela: Yeah. Go and pray

Keith: about it. You won't feel so bad. Yeah. As opposed to like,

Shiela: Hey, let's talk, let's maybe fix this.

Keith: Yeah.

Shiela: Prayer is, and it's like, no. Yeah. You know, prayer isn't just the battle, it's also preparation for the battle. So prayer helps you get strong so you can go and drop boundaries.

Dan: Awesome. That's good.

Well, the marriage you want now in stores, but where can people connect with you guys online? How can our listeners, connect with you guys?

Shiela: Yeah, so it's everywhere. Books are sold. You can find me@bearmarriage.com. That's like our website and that's BARE bear marriage.com. Our podcast is Bear Marriage, and if you go to bear marriage.com and click on books, you'll find the marriage you want.

You'll find the Great Sex Rescue and all of our other books, and you'll [00:48:00] find all our social media links too. So I'm quite active on Instagram and threads and Facebook and everything there as well. Yeah,

Dan: listeners will have those in the show notes for you. As always, Keith and Sheila, what an honor to have you on the show.

Thank you so much for being faithful to what God's called you to do, the mission that he's called you to help rescue marriage, to speak life into marriages and, just help people find a new way of doing according godly version of marriage. And so thank you so much for doing that, and we are so honored to have you on the show.

Yes, thank you here. Amen.

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