Hi, I'm Nina Endrst.

I'm Anna Toonk. Welcome to how to be human, a podcast that explores the common and often confusing themes of humaneness

on this episode Anna and I discussed spirituality.

Take a seat clear mind and let's chat Hello, darling. Hello, darling. Hello, love. It made me laugh when I was recording the reading for our members, the newsletter, and I was like, I'm like wrapping everyone in a hug unless you don't like affection. I'm giving you your space.

I'm high fiving you from across the room?

Yeah. And I feel like now with like, you know, pet names like calling people, you know, love darling and things like that, like, I still want it's always better than a British accent even better if it's a terrible one that you're faking. And I do always enjoy. Like,

thank you for saying that. I've been having so much anxiety that that's all I call people. And I'm like, I hope nobody's, like, offended by it. But first of all, it's gender neutral. Yes. Second of all, it's like I only called people out but I like like, obviously otherwise I'm like, Hi. But I don't I did have someone say to me once, please don't call me that. And I was like, fair enough.

Yeah, I've never had that. But I've heard it. And you know, I've heard people say like, Please don't call me that. And I always find it really interesting. Like when people do it like with, you know, like a, like a, like a barista or something. You know, and they're like, don't call me honey. And it's like, ruin like, that's the person you're gonna you know, like, I don't love it in a professional setting. Like, obviously, I don't like a man in a professional setting calling me like, No, honey.

Man. Yeah,

that's the only that's my only time that I'm like, maybe not, you know, but I

this is something I don't even love girl.

Yeah, and this is something I don't love about myself. But like, I certain things will make me feel very girlish. Like, anyone winks at me. Oh my god. Am I pretty lady? Like, like certain things. I'm always like, it's just nice. Like for someone to be like, hello, darling. You're like, no, it's nice. I agree. I think Joe it puts a little pep in my step.

Yeah. So what are we talking about today?

It's, I'm gonna tell on Nina that she did not want to do this episode. She's like, What? Like, what's funny is when Nina just something she turns into a teenager. It's like, well, like what are we gonna do about it? I'm like, I think this is one that people would definitely like to hear our thoughts about. And we can do it as ourselves and just a cuckoo I don't think you're not also what like a bro like you what you never sound like but a teenager? And yeah, it's the teen when you'll be like, it just it always cracks me up. But we are talking about spirituality. Yeah, it took me a little bit to find a definition that would didn't feel vague or incorrect. So I'm offering the definition from Oxford languages, which is the quality of being concerned with the human spirit, or soul as opposed to material or physical things. And something I wanted to offer also to up at the top is I think people use spirituality and spiritualism as interchangeable, and they're not. Spiritualism is an actual religion. It is a system of belief and religious practice based on supposedly communication with spirits of the dead, especially through mediums of philosophy, the doctrine that the spirit exists as distinct from matter or that spirit is the only reality and if you're interested in that there is a great book called the in betweens, the spiritualist mediums and legends of camp at Na, which is a camp that is in Maine. That is all people doing. It's a camp devoted to spiritualism and you can go get sessions and readings and see a lot of stuff. Yeah, we gotta go. We

didn't mean I mean, can I take a day trip?

I mean means pretty far.

No, I mean, I stay there but not there. I'm gonna stay over with them.

Oh, no, I mean, cute Airbnb nearby. Okay,

cool. Great because I'm not a mom. I want to like hang out later and have dinner No,

they like also live in their little huts and stuff like, cool. It's been there for over 100 years and So, where are they here in Maine? Is it? I mean, you know what I think the town is maybe called ECMO. But let me double check. Okay, well, that book is also what I liked about it. I read it a couple of years ago, I think it came out in 2018. It is an apt name. So is it also explains a lot of different things between different psychic modality it explains all the differences between like clear audience clear, you know, like all those sorts of things. So if you're interested in any of this stuff, I think it's a it's a really great book in terms of laying out what's what is like, I think something that is common about spirituality, is people have no idea where to go for stuff. So I just wanted to up at the top say that spiritualism and spirituality are two different things. But if you want a book that's very entertaining, and really interesting, the in betweens, the spiritualist mediums and legend of camp at night, you know, will give you a lot of information about spiritualism, and all kinds of the psychic arts. So when, okay, I know your mom was is spiritual, you know, I would say, you know, my mom is not, you know, like, my mom was like, I'm a Catholic, even though she is kind of spiritual, you know, like, I find it so interesting. You grew up in a household with it, and then kind of were like, like, you know, that's weird. Or Mom, like, put your mother piece deck away, you know, like, and, and then came back to it. What was it like growing up with spirituality, and then coming back to it on your own terms? Ah,

so my mom was always that, let me there, there was no one else like her, especially where I grew up. And so my friend, it was very much like suburban mom Ville. And that's cool, fine. I mean, maybe not cool, but it's fine. And my mom had her singing bowls and her cards and she was taking me to tarot readers or psychics or acupuncture like a lot, all through my childhood, not in like a way that was inappropriate ever too much. But often, and I was really into, it was just so normal for me growing up, and I was really into it. And I never rejected it. But I would get embarrassed for you know, a moment here or there. When my friends would come over and she, like in the morning, they would sleep over in the morning should be meditating. And they were like, What is your mom doing? Like she's meditating with a bowl. I don't know, like, whatever. So I didn't reject it. But I did. It. She was the only one I knew that was in it, you know, doing yoga. I mean, there were many people doing yoga, but she had been doing yoga since she was a teenager. So I'm really grateful for that. I think I didn't. Well, I know I didn't use I didn't use it. In the way I use it. Now. I didn't connect the way I connect now. But I was always asking big questions. And I was always thinking outside of this earth, but then always trying to bring it back to Earth. That made me feel very much always on the outside of the friendships I had and the worlds I was in not. I wasn't rejected for it. I didn't. You know, there was no like your, your Where do you even fucking talking about? I just felt like why? Why am I the only one kind of asking these questions or thinking this deeply? So when I came back to it, I mean, it was definitely humbling because I felt like my mom had kind of been right all along, even though she'd never proposed that I do any of that for work was not like, you could you could read tarot, but I did feel this, this kind of, oh, it was right in front of me all along, and I just had no idea. And, but I think that's, it's a beautiful part of just how life unfolds. You know, I had to I had to kind of run into things and hit certain walls and meet my limits, to then realize that what I actually really wanted was a peaceful life, helping people and connecting to something bigger than me. That gives me hope that helps me to stay anchored here. And it's been a like a journey for lack of a better word, and that I think anytime you don't see it coming, it's It's humbling, you know, and I just did not see it coming at all. So I'm really grateful that my mom instilled a lot of, you know, great practices and of just this awareness that there was something to there's something outside of the box. When she got cancer the first time I think, she said she wasn't going to do chemo, she did radiation. I don't know if she needed chemo. But anyway, she did radiation. And she would mix all these Chinese herbs at in her house. And I actually wanted to talk about this on the podcast too, because I saw can spirituality guy who I usually am like so down with,

and I know exactly what you're talking about. He went after our beloved acupuncture. He did. And I was like, fuck off. I mean, I think for what he's doing, he's not incorrect. Like he probably would say Reiki is made up, you know, like, I could see that, which I don't think it is, obviously, but he's also someone who was in a cult. So he's coming. Yeah, he was. That's like, part of why he like does this work is he's like when I was on a call, you know, like, so I just think,

because I was just really annoying. I didn't block. Go back. But I just was like, yeah, come on. But here's the thing. I don't really care. But my point was, what was my point? What was I talking about? She didn't do that she was right. And I think my point was, like, there was a lot of, not pushback, that was too loud. But I think my friends would make comments or things about like, well, what is that? Like? Why is she doing that? Instead of taking you know, this or blah, blah. And they didn't mean anything by they just didn't understand. So I just am so grateful that my mom exposed me to so much because nothing because and it's all I know. Right? So now I I see things that are traditional and very much expected as as like a little bit outside of the box. I don't disagree. I absolutely believe in science and medicine, of course. But I'm not like quick to jump to it. Because I know so well about alternative medicine. And that is, I think priceless.

Yeah, I wonder how did your mom even come to spirituality? Because I think if you also think of like,

the She probably just did a lot of drugs.

You think I mean, like, she did a lot of driving.

When she went to Woodstock and it was like that without generation. So I think she just like stumbled. Yeah, total hippie,

which is interesting, because my mom was a hippie, like, baby. Yeah, but she was still. Yeah, I think she's like, I'm a hippie, but I'm also a sort of southern lady. And you can only like kind of spit in the face of convention so much, you know, so, yeah, it's, it's just south has kind of a thing of like, you can rebel in certain ways, as long as you are complying and others. So I think she kind of found it's like, it was I mean, my mom converted to Catholicism when she was 18 years old. Like the second she hit 18 she converted from bizarre Yeah, from Methodist.

I think, Wait, she like was like, I so desperately want to be Catholic.

Yeah, my mom used to, like, would go to Mass before church, she doesn't hate gay people. Not at all. Oh my God, no one could love the gays more than my mom, tell

me how that fucking works out.

I mean, Catholicism sort of interesting in the sense of like, it very much depends on like, what you're like, what is the culture of your Arch Diocese? And like, what is your priest? Like? There are tons of progressive Catholic churches, you're just not hearing about it, you know, there are priests that are, you know, like, will preach tolerance and things like that, you know, the way a Catholic mass kind of goes is different because it's, it's kind of formulaic, you know, like we do the same thing. Where is you know, and you have communion and all of that. Whereas for Baptists, Methodists, some other things, those ministers pastors, they like to freestyle, and I think that's where I mean, the Catholic Church is is complicated people who are very conservative or very, you know, like, obviously, don't, you know, like, don't tolerate gays, or homosexuality. But I don't think most people walking around who identify as Catholic, or I don't I it's just not I mean, I know I know a lot of them. I just it's just not something I hear a lot or that what's going on in their homes. You know, like, I think it's much more with the In the Christian, right, you know than it is with Catholicism, Catholicism has different problems that it's over, you know, like, so I think my mom loved the tradition, she loved the rituals she liked she, you know that that's when she really felt like she was able to commune with God. And that's been a way for me to sort of explain like my own, you know, like relationship with spirituality, you know, that I'm like, the way you sort of you feel it mass, like, I feel in meditation. And we mutually sort of like, you know, I just, I just worry, I'm not going to see you in heaven, because you're a heathen. And I'm like, Well, I spend all day communing with God, so maybe you should be a little more worried. And she was like, Oh, shit, and I was like, I love when my trolling works with her. Like, it's so fun sometimes. But I was like, every day, I'm kind of in pursuit of where is where is the divinity? Where, where can I remember that? You know, where can I remember spirit, you know, like, whether that's the human spirit, or ones larger than us or things like that, you know, that I do think most of what we concern ourselves with on Earth is nonsense, you know? So I understand like, a lot of my mom's own resistance that it was so interesting when we were in India, and it's an incredibly spiritual mistake, you know, in religious place. And her seeing these people who a lot of our guides and things like that were like, you know, deeply religious, like Hindu, very devout, were like, oh, yeah, I went and like, you know, gave an offering at the temple before I met Oh, this morning and yet would be fully engaged in spirituality was like, challenging for her and I was like, See, these things can coexist I find it very interesting that she doesn't think like religion and spirituality can coexist. up so is

that like, against my mom grew up Catholic, by the way. So she, and was like, This is not for like, very against the Catholic Church. So I grew up with her saying that, and then I actually at 13, all my friends were going to CCD, or whatever the fuck yeah. And I was like, well, what's the CCD thing about? Like, I want to see what's up. And she's, and I give my mom so much credit, because I would have been, if Milo ever asked me to go to CCD, I will say, Absolutely not. There is no fucking way. I just Well, I mean, call me when he asked me that. But she was like, if you really want to go, go ahead. And I went, and one of the first things they were talking about was about homosexuality being wrong. And I was like, Mongols guy, I gotta go, like, I'm out. You guys are not for me. And it was, so I came home. I'm like, why I was so confused. And I at that moment, just really wrote off all organized religion altogether. Because I just don't, it just, I don't I don't like feeling like I'm in some sort of, you know, rulebook, and I have to follow things I have to answer to someone and the whole idea of going to friggin tell someone about your sins. I mean, it was just so bizarre to me. Like, who is this guy? What makes him any more, you know, together than me? Why is he judging me about and what sins like it just all like blows my mind to this day? And I have a client who's Mormon what formerly Mormon and you when she'll tell me things about Mormonism. I just, like knocks my socks off. Like

true. Yeah, the Church of Latter Day Saints is on machine, What the actual

fuck like, and the special underwear and the like, End of Days and like, put every see everything and religion in organized religion, for the most part feels very contradictory to me. And that's where I am just, like, throw the middle finger up respectfully, because I just am like, you just said this. But now you want nyuad Do that. I just it just doesn't compute for me and it doesn't add up in most areas.

Well, it's much like, you know, the Constitution that we're still trying to the good old constitution. Yeah, that you know, it's like that was made by a lot of men with wood teeth, you know, like, things have changed and a couple of years

ago.

Yeah, like, I think I mean, like a like a lot of things that my opinion is very different than most people's like I had a very like Catholicism like soft Catholicism. experience, a lot of that is because we moved to England where, you know, most people are Church of England. So there's just not a ton. It loosens its grip, even within my family. And I think my mom also, like, didn't feel like she had to create, like, a religious home. But I think she felt like she had to give us something, which is kind of leads me to my next question for you. Whereas, like, I understand the appeal of organized religion in the sense of, if you think back into yield and times, and it's like, I sometimes think about what it must have been like, and like the 1318. Think about that all the time. And you just have no idea what the fuck is happening ever. You're just like,

we know, like,

the way things are being explained. I mean, think about being any human body and the 1300s were there like, they have nothing, they don't know anything. They're like, Oh, are in when I will be stoned. Or you're like, you're growing a goblin, you know, it's like, I think of that. And I'm like, Well, if you think about organized religion through, like, there, that was so much of what was people's lives, you know, like, it was a way to explain life, it was a way to give you rules of how to live it was, you know, like, it was, I do think it, like originally made me was like, Yeah, we don't know why we've ended up here. We don't know how we're gonna survive. But we're gonna try and

chat about this. I totally get.

And I but I don't, what I don't understand is why there's a fear of like, updating it. And then I also find it hilarious. When people are judgy about, say, like Mormonism, which, you know, or in or like, it's too new. Like, it's not a religion, like all of that is very bizarre to me. But I also think, you know, like, in the example of confession, like, Who is he, like, we're saying that that is a priest, that is someone who has been designated, like, I get that there is some advantage to saying like, these are the things we've decided, you know, we've decided that we're going to have a holy person you go until your sins to, and they give you a prescription, and then you're absolved from it like that, to me seems like a pretty sweet system that like no matter what I did, I just go tell this person we've decided has magical powers. And then I'm done with it. I'm like, That's cool to me, you know, but what I think that spirit why spirituality is appealing, but also has gone like bonkers in our day and age, is that people want to make narcissism, spirituality, and just say, anything I want to do. If I if I can put it under spirituality, then it's cool. And I can manifest it. Yes. Ah, like, I don't even know what my question is. But sort of like, how do we rein in that people like us spirituality like, or like, um, high vibe, or like the CO opt all this stuff around spirituality, basically to be terrible? Like,

well, that's what do we do about that episode? Great question. That's why I didn't want to do this episode, because I am. I have this. And I know, Anna did this thing to me once and I really wanted to like reach through the phone and grab her and be like, What did you just say to me, but then I also was like, thank you so much for saying that. You go. This is so good. We're talking about when we had Seoul. And I was like, safety, safety, safety. Like I was so much about safety. I wanted everyone to know that it was safe. And I was like, people don't feel safe, Anna, people don't feel safe. And she's like, I don't think that's a universal problem. And I was like, what? In your like, I think that's like a huge thing. And I'm like, okay, but I but I do think I take it to the next level. I also think that I saw so much coming only because I was so knee deep in some with somebody that was Q anon. That it scared the shit out of me. And then I started to see it like out in all of these small ways. And did it make me paranoid? Yes. But now all this kind of pastel cue and all these, you know, influencers who people don't even know are sharing things from a conspiracy theory. That's quite dangerous. It's like it's, I don't believe in having a stroke. You know, what's it called? Like checks and balances, obviously for some Spirituality, like, who's going to be the fucking, you know, President of spirituality and just make sure we're all doing what we need to do. I mean, think about therapists, they go off the rails all the time. And they have a very much like a system. Right? Who checks in on them? I don't know, do they have to, like take tests every so often or something?

Yeah. I mean, they're, they tend to be license, well, if they're doing things the way they should be. Yeah, have to be licensed. And they have to keep up with that. So you have to do that every like so often. Yeah. And then you should also have a clinical supervisor, you should have someone that you are checking in with and being like, this is what's up, you know, like, I'm saying these people or whatever, there are supposed to be systems. Yeah.

Which I like, appreciate. However, in that's something that I don't know that, first of all, it's possible in this space, but also that we need, it's just to your point, I What happened, I think, is that white women figured out that they could make money doing it, and that they didn't have to answer to anybody, and that they could also center themselves completely in the conversation and somehow become, you know, praised for whatever. And it just went fucking wild. Like, there's just so much nonsense out there. And I don't want to be associated with any of it. And so I'm very, which I'm centering myself now. But I think it's just so it's such a delicate situation, and how do we take that back almost, and just, I've netted out that people need to learn their lessons, they're going to sometimes go to people who are Yep, totally unethical. And, you know, this happened to a client of mine, and she had a really, really bad experience with somebody who charged her a lot of money, who positioned themselves as you know, this, like, spiritual influencer. And she, when she I mean, when I say she crossed a boundary, it was beyond a boundary. And then it was so manipulative and gross, and I just, but she did need to learn that lesson, I think, too, and pull the veil back on who she thought this person was, or who this person presented herself to be. So I think part of it's like, we can't protect everybody, and it's not our job to write. And we can't police everybody, it's not our job to, but I, I do see it. At some point, it has the bubble has to burst. And I'm just sitting back with like, a cigarette, even though I don't smoke anymore, and a glass of wine being like, when's this all gonna fucking explode?

Yeah, what makes something spiritual to you?

That's a great question. I think it's this, I think it's a feeling really, I think it's feeling I think it's Egri feeling connected in whatever, however, that, whatever that means, when I move, I feel you know, that little tingle that in the third eye, like, I feel that and I feel a clearing happen, and I feel a connection happening. And I feel like I'm in my body, but I'm also channeling something. And so I use that word very sparingly, because everything we just talked about, now everyone's channeling this channeling that blah, blah. But I feel like a channel for energy to come through me when I'm doing movement when I'm doing readings. And that and when I'm meditating, which is, you know, rare that I do it traditionally, in a traditional sense. But anytime I feel an absence of anxiety, and a just kind of this rush of almost knowing that everything just okay, as it is, in that moment, I feel like I'm doing something that's spiritual walking in nature, being with my kid in catching him in moments where I'm like, Whoa, this is something this is something. What about you?

It's funny. I want us to talk about channeling in a second, I think, well, I It's funny, some of these, like, my whole life and career. I've like, always been into things that like, half the community is amazing. And, you know, like, we all just want to, like, nerd out in, like, do our thing. And the other half of the community are terrible. Like, it's, you know, like photography, television, you know, like, all these things that like, that half was like all about it. And the other half was like, Yeah, I'm, I'm a photographer or nearly so true, you know, and it's, and I don't know what I'm supposed to learn from it. I'm still you know, and I think some of it is to see the like, kind of like the absurdity have rules and things you know, because it's like, I deeply believe in channeling and I think channeling is I think one of my greatest gifts is my ability to channel that I can. Once that clicked into place for me and I really learned how to do it. And I credit Delphi the metaphysical University, real life, aka what I refer to often as real life Hogwarts into really teaching me that and, you know, learning how to kind of like, let go, feeling that sort of loss of myself, you know, and feeling myself still be in my body, but be able to receive things that I've no idea where it's coming from. I'm like, Whoa, shit, you know, I think often I feel a sense of spirituality when things happen that like, okay, maybe if I scratched the surface, I could like figure it out. But like, it feels like magic. Like when something just sort of aligns, there's a photographer, he is lungs instead. Now, Henri Cartier Bresson who coined the term, the decisive moment. And it was when your eye camera in hand all lined up to capture something. And that, to me is like, the life version of that, like, I was telling Nina, I was coming home and a street performer was singing Charles Bradley, I'm going through changes. And when he was like, belting the chorus, like 100 people sitting around, sang with him and like, That, to me feels like spirituality. That, to me is the human spirit. And like, so maybe like connection is a thing for me, like, whether it's connection with people or, you know, but like, it is that feeling. I agree with you about like being in nature, sometimes when you're like, Oh, my God, like, We're such a tiny speck in all of this, you know, but I think in a way, I really do sort of live my life a bit spiritually in terms of trying to be concerned with, you know, things bigger than just like, I guess, like, what I want or, you know, like acquiring or, you know, that sort of stuff. But I think like, it is a bummer that certain things like channeling, you know, I think it's something you're interested in, I highly recommend people play with it. I think on this site. I did some stuff around channeling. But if you're looking for a reader, or you're into somebody on Instagram, and they're always talking about channeling and a channeled message, and things like that, you know, if it feels weird, it really is, you know, and it's they shouldn't have a problem telling, like, if it's legit, if it's if it's if it's for real, and they're channeling something, whether that's from, you know, their higher self, their guides God who knows who the fuck knows, you know, they should be able to tell you and have no problems with it. Like think about the woman who was just in New York Times about channeling Yeshua, you know, like, that's pretty fucking out there, you know, and she has no problems being profiled in the New York Times. Like, I'm inclined to believe that woman's definitely talking to somebody, is it Yeshua, I have no idea, you know, but like, something's up there. But I think often people use channeling as a bit of a smokescreen, because they don't have the full confidence to just say what they're trying to say

100%. Also, I How much do we like, I've just started not to care. And I don't mean that.

Oh, it's like, I feel like I've taken on board some of your ways you don't care. And I feel like you're taking aways and I don't care. We've had a little bit of a swap. Yes.

Yes. Because I'm, for a moment I just became, well, here's my thing. If I believe that if you're about it, you don't talk about it all the time. If, if you're just like about that life, you're living that life, you know, you don't need to flex No. And I tend not to believe people who are constantly putting on this show about how the channel that they are and how they have a message for you. And it's a collective message. And I'm like, should you just be doing it right now? I don't know. Yeah, just don't buy it personally. But here's where I don't care anymore. I just don't care anymore. I'm like, if you go for it, if you want to like call a bunch of people into your call in the middle of the woods in frickin North Carolina, like so be it. Everyone at this point is all They're all I care about everyone deeply as a as just humanity, I care about humans, but I will not sit there and stress about how many shitty people there are doing this work and manipulating people, because while it's deeply unfortunate and scary, I'm not one of them, and is not one of them. I don't associate with anybody who is that way. So that's, that's really all she wrote. Like, if that's the lesson that somebody has to learn, I mean, I've gotten screwed by a psychic and like, totally, almost taken. I didn't, but she was super manipulative. And I do think you have to learn some of these lessons sometimes. But spirituality is not selfish, is what I think. And if you feel like somebody is really centering themselves or, or consuming more than they're giving, that I think it's cause for pause.

Like that, yeah, I also think just because someone is spiritual doesn't mean they're good as men. And I think that there's a lot of these things that we want to say, like, I get a lot of DMS that are like, I went to this person, and this thing happened or like, I went to the ER, my friend went to this person in this thing, like, can you believe it? And I'm like, yep. You know, like, there are a lot of bad people out there. There are a lot of bad breeders out there. You know, like, yeah, I can you know, like, it's an unregulated field. No. Yeah.

Motherfucker, like,

not trying to sound like, you know, an asshole. But it's like, yeah, 100% believe that happened, you know? And they're sort of I can tell like, they're a little surprised that like, I'm not outraged. And I'm like, if I got outraged every time or I got outraged by how many terrible people do this work, like, it's all I would do, it would be a full time job. And I think like, what you and I sort of realized me more so than you, I think you already knew it. But I really learned that was that a lot of people want to be fooled. A lot of people want to believe you can, you know that you don't have to heal trauma, you don't have to do these things. You don't have to, like work on your self confidence or self worth, or heal this stuff that you can like, go to a weekend retreat and become a high priestess in two days. And that will solve your problems. And you know what, like, we all have to like, hit her head heads against some walls before we get somewhere sometimes, you know, like, I think I felt for a long time. Like, I wanted to be outspoken about my practice to try to like, you know, like, so many people who are bad are really outspoken, you know, so I was like, there's no encountering that, in a way, you know, so I would talk about it more. And then I was just kind of like, oh, wait, like a lot of people because my belief was like, well, if they know they'll do better, they'll choose better, though, you know? And then I was like, no, apparently not, you know, like in. It's not, I'm not really saying this in judgment. I think I'm seeing it more in defeat of like, this is something Nina and I obviously, like care so much about it's what we do. It's what we've really devoted our lives and time to that. It is so frustrating to see it time and time again, co opted by people who really just want to do harm, or build up their own egos and know that they're doing

harm, like Oh, god, yeah, they don't so many of them don't think they're doing harm. And that Yeah, but you've taught me so much about not wasting my energy being outraged all the time, because I was so exhausted. And I'd be in the shower, like, can you believe this is happening? It's like, you know, that's not your fucking business. Right? Like, just take a shower. You know? Yeah, I do. I do hate to think of people out there, getting her. But at the same time, you know, red flags or red flags, and you're it's a perfect time to check in with your intuition and say, Does this feel right or true or safe? And I do think that people, to your point, absolutely wish to have an easy answer, which I get, of course, we all want that. But if it seems too good to be true, or there's this whole kind of marketing scheme that surrounds it, it's probably not real. Yeah. And that's just an easy rule of thumb, like seven days to you know, psychic, whatever. It's like, okay, I don't know. I don't.

I don't Yeah. i i I also think like, if we're defining spirituality is as essentially an interest in things like, large larger than yourself, you know, in not just the, your experience, but the human experience the soul, those sorts of things. No one's better than you, you know. And I, I had a teacher who was pretty famous now, who did some, like, really not cool shit. And one of the things she did would be like, your spirit guides are talking to me, and they're telling me, and I was like, I know, they're not I know, this is the way she's trying to talk to me, you know, and I'm glad that I trusted that, you know, and started was like, I think I need to take from this person, what I need for me, and then I need to separate, you know, like, something's happening here. I'm not so sure about you know, and I think a lot of people are attracted to spirituality, because like, you can be good at it or kind of can create, like, some star power or whatever, like, without qualifications, you know? So, I think it does attract those people who are gonna say stuff, like, your spirit guides are telling me like, you can't really argue with that, you know, like, I can't be like, Well, I'm gonna call him up with the phone right now. And they're gonna tell you, you know, like, I'm, like, I'm gonna argue with a woman that my Spirit Guides aren't talking to her like, No, I'm, like, no, like, I refuse for that to be the dumbest moment of my day, you know, it's like, I'm just going to trust that, you know, and, and connect to myself. And I would say to people, like, I like spirituality, I think does feel daunting to wade into, I think it can be a very gated community of, you know, people act like it's, it's something that I think people like, it makes people feel cool, like a lot of practicing, which is like, our cool seeing very cool. And it has this like mystique about it, that if you're interested, or you're like, I want more, I want more of a personal practice, like, religion doesn't really do it for me, but like, I got all these questions, or I want to know, these meanings of life or whatever, I think start noticing, like, what does make you feel a sense of like, peace, or wonderment or, you know, Nina and I are huge believers, and like, anything can kind of be spiritual. So I think that can be a helpful way to to protect yourself from like, going from the person who's like, famous on Instagram, or like, has a really sexy profile, but probably isn't going to do much for your spiritual practice. That like a huge, huge thing. I know, I brought up, I've brought it up on here before, but was Buddhism for me, you know, and, uh, sometimes, like, going to the less sexy places like Delphi is not sexy. It's like, you know, you're like, basically, in a dorm in the middle of the woods in North Georgia, you know, like, this stuff that isn't Instagrammable is often where I think you will find the best stuff, you know, like, those are the people who've been at it. And I think from anyone you want to consume anything spiritually, you want to feel in your bod, they've done some work to clear out some of their gunk, like, they know their biases, they know where they're coming from, they maybe know what their work is, like, at this point. I like working with people older and stuff, it doesn't mean that they're necessarily better. But like, if I'm trying to go forward, isn't it more helpful to like, look to someone who's maybe been there, you know? So I think sometimes, like, getting a little bit off. Like, if you're resonating with something you're seeing in social media or something like maybe look at what is the tradition of that thing? Like if you notice, oh, I really love this person's yoga classes. Like, maybe it's that their ion gar Ito and see like, do you resonate with more of what? What was his name? I can't remember why I embarrass first name is but anyway, one of his books is incredible. You know, like, maybe that's a way for you to build a spiritual practice as well. Like, I think sometimes people are like, I'd like to be more spiritual, but I've no no idea how to do it. And it's like, anything could be it could just be that you take a quiet moment while you enjoy your tea in the morning. That's spiritual.

Yes. And I think the more that you build a practice of your own on your own, the more discerning you are because you know, what it feels like? And I think a lot of people don't know what it feels like, or they don't know that they know what it feels like. So they trust people to tell them and that can get a little sticky. Yeah, it's if you are like I felt it before you know, then it's somebody who comes in and tries to kind of push you in a direction that doesn't feel comfortable, or to manipulate you, frankly, you're instilling going to feel that on a physical level, like instantly. And that's not to be ignored. I mean, maybe you won't feel it physically. But I do think there's a way to develop that. I know there is where you, I mean, the all, for instance, this is the least spiritual thing that happened to me today. I was driving today, and there was a checkpoint, and I saw like 10 Cops and my entire body. It was like a wave of like, you know, that anxiety that just like, from your toes to your nose, like, yes, it filled it, like flooded my body. Everything was like, bad, bad. And of course, it's like the all of the stories I read, and all of the biases I have, that are mostly absolutely true. But I drove and I drove through the checkpoint, and I just, when I left, I sent it away, and I was like, Be gone, like, off my body away from my field. Like, I don't want to absorb that. But I was really grateful to my body, because my body was saying, like, maybe you're not in danger, but you feel like you're in danger. And that's worth paying attention to. Yes. So that's also spiritual, knowing yourself at that level, and honoring your feelings and your emotions. And is, is deeply spiritual. And every time you make a decision that's good for you, that you know, in your heart is good for you, you connect to something, you connect to your higher purpose where you connect to something that's bigger than you, because you're honoring, I think your true spirit that can be big or small.

Yeah, and I would say just if anyone has like, some, I don't know, sort of position or influence as like a spiritual leader, but like, they make you feel bad, they're not yours, you know, they're not for you. And you can trust that, you know, like, you'll get what you need from someone else. And I think it can be worth it to kind of, you know, like, double check, go, like, why is this making me feel bad? Is it inviting me to look at stuff I don't like to look at? Or like, are we just not a fit? You know, like, does this and I think, for some reason was spirituality, I think, because we're like, well, they're spiritual, they must know better, or they must have this information you don't like? No, it's like, it's no different than anything else. Like, if you went to a doctor who every time you went to see them, like, made you feel bad about yourself, you would get a new doctor, you know, and I think spirituality is the same, like, nobody, you know, has been tapped, you know, as the special one, you know, and yet, but I think like, people who are iffy and highly suss will, will make you question that. And I would just be like, you know, the greatest gift that Taro really gave me when I was really in the process of learning was like, what's in your best and highest can't miss you. And I truly come back to that over and over again, you know, across the board. So whether that's wisdom, it's, you know, spiritual body, it's your growth, it's, you know, your purpose, or how to better align with yourself, whatever. If someone's making you feel bad, then you will get it somewhere else. You're not gonna you're not gonna miss out on the love of your life, because you're not getting your lessons from this person. No, and

there's nothing wrong with you, because you don't connect with that person.

Yes, thank you. That's really what I was trying to get at. But yes, yeah, exactly. They're just not for you. And I think that for whatever reason, like we question that a lot more in spirituality, or it gets a little bit more. Like if I didn't like a writing teacher, I wouldn't think about it, you know, I wouldn't super get in my fields or question myself, but for whatever reason, when it comes to spirituality, I can get under our skin a little bit more. Yeah.

In closing, what is the most spiritual thing you've done for yourself lately? And then day today, what's the most spiritual thing you've done today?

I was walking and I was thinking about how much I hate the heat. And I then for a brief second, close my eyes and just walked a few more steps and thought, but it sure does feel really good to like, feel the sun on your skin and be alive and be in a body that can walk me down this street, you know, I, you know, I think if there's anything, people are probably clear on in this podcast, it's that we are not into toxic positivity. But I do find sometimes spirituality can be like, get over grumpy, you know, like you're alive. And because of that all things are possible, including air conditioning. And if you'll just keep going, you'll get in that AC, you know, I do think my spiritual practice helps me find that. So that would be an example of that today. And then taking a pause to eat a really delicious salad. I struggled to eat lunch. I don't know why. Apparently, it's an IT. Well, it's also an add thing that you're like a toddler like, no, I'll keep working. Like when I finished this, you know? Yeah. So I have to really be diligent with myself, but I was eating a particularly delicious salad I'd made for myself, and was taking a second to be like, Thank you, everyone who played a part in me getting to eat this delicious salad. Thank you for growing this food. So yeah, that would be

Yeah, I wanted to illustrate how, you know, it's, there's so many people who think they're not spiritual or think that it's not accessible to them. And I knew that you would prove that to be incorrect, not because you're incorrect for thinking human. But because it's just, it's everywhere. It's in everything. And it's always available. And there's no, you don't have to look for it in specific places you can just be and allow it to move through you allow you, whatever it is to move through. And, yeah, I think it changes our perspective in so many ways. I know that's what it's done. For me, I am definitely a negative person more than I'm a positive person, in general. And I think that's a defense mechanism and just a way of protecting myself and always have, but being spiritual has and continues to ground me in what it actually is and what is possible and how small I am in the best possible way. And it just creates a lot more of an opening instead of feeling like there's just a closed door or a negative thing. Or I had a moment today I wear this woman that I take Pilates with all the time, I have decided in my head that she doesn't like me, and she always is looking at me weird. And what did I do bla bla bla. So it's a conspiracy with an Aries like something must be wrong. And so I was like today, I'm like, I'm going to choose to believe that none of that is true. And just get out of my story and take my Pilates class. And at the end, my teacher always shouts out my my class. At the end, she walked up to me and she was like, a little nervous, I think, or she was just, like, jittery from the class. But she I thought she was like, a little nervous. And she's like, where's your class? I really want to take it and was so lovely. And I was like, You're really strong. You know, because I was describing my class. I'm like, You're really strong. I'm sure you know, I'm sure you'll love it. She's like, I'm not that strong. I'm like, Yeah, you are, you're super strong. And we just connected. And I was like, It's all bullshit. And I just felt so good to be that in that and that felt really spiritual to me.

Yeah, I think truth feels like, yeah, spiritual, or spirituality to me. And I would invite people who think spirituality, like, let's like, down with the stereotype of, I'm not religious, I'm spiritual. And people just use that as an excuse to just like, you know, be like, I have a belief system. Let's embrace spirituality as a way like to more deeply know ourselves to more deeply show up in the world, like, how great would that be, you know, the better you know, yourself, the, the more you know, the better you can connect with someone else. And a lot of that is truth, you know, letting go the story so you can be in the truth of the moment. You know, if you hadn't dropped your story, you probably would have been very different when she came up to you, you know, and been like, what's this bitch one? You know, like, you might have been differently. I

don't think she would come up to me because I don't think my energy would have allowed

it. Mm hmm. True. True. True. True. True. True.

When I'm that way, I'm closed. Yeah, yeah, it wasn't, I was open and I was, you know, available. And I think that's why she walked in.

Yeah. So yeah,

the truth and also good old, keeping ourselves accountable for our own actions. Through spiritual, deeply spiritual that's why I really Yep, stupid. These humans, but anyway, so true.

They want to embrace one part and not the other. Yeah. But hopefully, this has been helpful. And yeah, if you have questions about spirituality, or there's other things you want to know about, you can obviously always submit that on the site or on a subset, or you can email us. Because I would be curious. I feel like it's something people are always sliding into my DMs about. So I'm always curious to know, what questions kind of people have around spirituality or spiritual practices or, you know, things they want to know or stuff like that. Because I know for me definitely was a journey, like, finding my info too. So I'm happy to give people resources, as well. Nina is happy to do it as well, but she's just far more private than I am. So you definitely have to ask her and she'll give them to you. Whereas I'm like, do you want every resource I've ever had? So

Anna has all the resources you can email me you can't DM me, though. It's true. I just don't think that's the way to communicate these for me.

Well, I'm just Hell yeah.

Tell you, I will give it to you. I just want it done in a specific

spot. All right, humans.

Happy, happy living. Good luck out there.

Good luck out there.

That's all for today's episode.

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