[00:00:00] Hannah: Hello, and welcome back to the awfully quiet podcast today, I am joined by Jacob Morgan, who is a trained futurist and one of the world's leading authorities on leadership, the future of work and employee experience. His newest book leading with vulnerability, unlock your greatest superpower to transform yourself, your team, and your organization is what really sparked my interest.

And this conversation. Does not disappoint. We delve into some really insightful and unconventional takes on what makes a great leader and how introversion actually lends itself to give you a competitive advantage when it comes to these future skills. Jacob points out how great leadership It's a combination of both competence and connection and gives great real life examples of that being brought to life.

Now, without further ado, let's dive into the interview. Well, welcome Jacob. Thank you so much for joining me and welcome to the awfully quiet podcast.

[00:01:07] Jacob: Thank you for having me.

[00:01:09] Hannah: I'm really looking forward to this conversation. I feel like from a personality perspective, there's always people who are more past oriented and more future oriented. I'm definitely a future oriented person.

I'm always pulled towards future scenarios, what's going to happen in the future. So naturally I'm super excited to be having conversations with you. Jacob, you are a futurist, you have an organization all centered around the future of work, the future of organizations. So really, really looking forward to this.

And where I would love us to start is what draws you into the future? What fascinates you? What inspires you about the future? What made you, led you to it?

[00:01:49] Jacob: probably playing a lot of chess. so I've been playing chess for the majority of my life. My grandmother taught me to play when I was very young. and chess is very much a game where you think in terms of scenarios, potential futures, and I don't know, I, that probably just ingrained and stuck in my mind.

I still play a lot of chess. I take lessons, teaching my daughter how to play chess and taking her to tournaments. And, I think that's just how my brain has, has been wired since I was very young, about trying to think about the future and explore scenarios and possibilities. And it kind of stuck with me.

[00:02:24] Hannah: It's almost like that one step ahead mentality. It's just kind of like thinking about what can happen and what's the result of that. And

[00:02:31] Jacob: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It comes up all the time in my life and in work, so it's, it's been pretty useful for me.

[00:02:39] Hannah: I love that. talking about the future, your organization is all centered around what the future of work might look like, what the future organization might look like. And you're talking about future ready organizations. And I want to start where, what do you think is a future ready organization and how does it differ from how organizations are today?

[00:03:02] Jacob: Oh my goodness. so where to begin a future ready organization, I think is one, where you can kind of break it down into a couple of different areas. ultimately I think it comes down to the types of skills and mindsets that are part of the people who work there. So for me, a future ready organization is an organization where the leaders there believe that they are coaches and mentors.

A future ready organization is one that is constantly upskilling and re skilling their employees. A future ready organization is one that is investing in technology and things like AI. It is nimble and agile. It's resilient. it's able to move quickly when it needs to. and it's an organization that's constantly challenging the status quo.

it's not an organization that. Embraces the status quo. It's always trying to break things, experiment. it's an organization that thinks of itself much more like a laboratory and less like a factory. So I think those are some of the key criteria, but a lot of that, you know, you create that kind of an organization based on the leaders who are there.

So if you have leaders who embrace this kind of future ready thinking, And I've written a couple of books on leadership and, one is called the future leader, which looks at mindsets and skills. And the second one is called leading with vulnerability, which kind of expands on that a little bit. And so these are everything, you know, for example, some of the mindsets include things like, The mindset of the global citizen where you think big picture and include things like the mindset of the servant, where you believe that, you know, you serve your people.

And they also include things, a couple skills like the skill of the futurist, which is kind of what we talked about. The idea of thinking in terms of scenarios and possibilities and things like the skill of Yoda, which is about empathy and self-awareness. So when you have leaders who embrace those different skills and mindsets, I think you inherently create a future ready organization.

[00:04:54] Hannah: You know what I love about all of these is, how they scream introverted at me. And you know that, this podcast caters to very introverted audience. I'm an introvert myself. What's really important for me is to keep highlighting how introversion actually lends itself to great leadership. And that's often not where we're currently at when it comes to, you know, who is a great leader and what does.

mean? Some of the points on here are actually quite unconventional. I must say, like, so like being the servant, the futurist, the Yoda empathy has never really stood out to me or never, nobody ever said to me, Oh, you need to be very empathetic in order to be a leader. it does feel. Natural to me, it does feel like, you know, obvious, but it's not often talked about when it comes to great leadership.

where do you think the gaps are today? in terms of getting there and, you know, what do organizations need to do, but also what do leaders need to do?

[00:05:53] Jacob: so when you say the gap, you mean in, in, in, so can you elaborate a little bit on what you mean when you

[00:05:57] Hannah: In terms of like, why are we not there yet? Why do we still vastly believe that, you know, a great leader is somebody who is very charismatic, outgoing, puts themselves out there, is great in front of a crowd, as opposed to somebody who leads with vulnerability, who is more of a servant, a listener, somebody who taps into Emotion, empathy.

[00:06:21] Jacob: because that's the stereotype. I mean, that's what used to be taught. That's what we all saw growing up when we looked at somebody like a Jack Walsh or a Steve Ballmer.and that's been, you know, kind of ingrained in, in a lot of our minds. It's what we see on TV. It's what we experienced in our organizations.

And therefore we assume that to be, the truth. And, you know, when, when you make. That a cornerstone of leadership. And when it's all around you, that's what you tend to believe. So I think it's, I think it's as simple as that is. Those are the types of people who end up getting into those roles. And then we assume that that's what's required of everybody else.

[00:06:59] Hannah: Yeah. Would you say though that the future holds more space for some of those other qualities that you just mentioned in terms of bringing more empathy, leading with vulnerability? Is that something that you already see happening? Are there signs of that happening? Or, examples of that, like you say, great leaders out there who are already doing that?

[00:07:23] Jacob: Oh, yeah, absolutely. In fact, you know, I even make the argument that if you don't do that, you're not going to be able to lead going forward.and there are a lot of leaders who do that. Whether, I mean, Satya Nadella is a great example, right? I mean, he took over as the CEO of Microsoft, from Steve Ballmer.

And you can see he has a very different way and a very different approach for how he leads the company. And he's very much a believer in things like empathy and having a growth mindset, but it comes up in a lot of my conversations. I just interviewed the CEO of Sam's club, for example, he too, big believer in emotional intelligence and an empathy, and in connecting with people on a human level, we see a lot of conversations happening around purpose and meaning.

so absolutely. I think this is the new way. To lead going forward and the traditional stereotype of leadership, I think is completely being crushed inside of a lot of organizations, still a long way to go. You know, there's still certainly a lot of stereotypical leaders who don't want to talk about their emotions, who don't want to admit mistakes, who don't want to check in with their people and acknowledge how they're doing.

But I think for a lot of organizations, you know, most leaders, most employees that I talked to will acknowledge that. You know, they have some leaders out there who are, you know, You know, becoming more human.

[00:08:32] Hannah: Yeah, I really like that. when it comes to that though, and you say like empathy becomes really important, leading with vulnerability. I think some of these are, we just naturally associate with something that's rather weak and strong, isn't it? and I'm sure that you get a lot of people who say, he'll say to you, you know, how do I, how am I going to, you know, how I'm going to be vulnerable without.

Being perceived as weak, how am I going to be tapping into empathy without being perceived as weak? How do you find the sweet spot? How do you advise people to go about tapping into these qualities, but still staying confident? Strong, competent?

[00:09:18] Jacob: So this was one of the questions that I asked a lot of employees, and I said, you know, what is it that keeps you, from being vulnerable at work? And to your point, everybody said, well, you know, what keeps us from being vulnerable at work is we don't want to be perceived as being weak or incompetent.

And so the way that you fix that is that you add leadership to the vulnerability. And so what that means is, I mean, take, for example,you know, very classic example. let's say you make a mistake at work, right? Something, something bad happens. You make a mistake. Now being vulnerable at that time means that you go to your leader and you say, I'm really sorry.

I made this mistake. Now that's vulnerable, but at the same time, your leader is not going to look at you and say, Hey, thank you for being vulnerable. They're going to look at you and they're going to say, well, the problem is still not solved. You know, the customer is still unhappy. The deadline has still not been met.

What are you going to do about it? And so leading with vulnerability is instead of saying, I'm sorry, I made a mistake. You say, I'm sorry, I made a mistake. Here's what I learned from the mistake. Here's what I'm going to do going forward to make sure that that never happens again. If you want to avoid being perceived as being weak or incompetent when you're vulnerable, then add competence and strength to your vulnerability.

So add. So think of vulnerability as exposing a gap that you have a gap in wisdom or experience or intelligence or skill leading with vulnerabilities about exposing that gap that you have and then demonstrating what you're trying to do to close the gap and especially inside of an organization where you are paid to do a job and your company is paying for benefits and salary and giving you equipment and stuff like that.

Your leaders don't just want to hear about the gaps. They don't just want to see all the gaps that you have. They want to know what you're trying to do to actually solve that problem and close those gaps yourself. So I always tell people don't be vulnerable at work instead lead with vulnerability. And again, that goes back to the idea of, of these are the gaps that I have.

And here's what I'm trying to do to close my gaps. And I think if people can do that, they're going to see tremendous, improvements in their career and how people perceive them.

[00:11:24] Hannah: Yeah. What comes to mind instantly is interview situations, and I think the question often comes up in terms of what are your. well, weaknesses mostly, but it's literally a cue to share your vulnerabilities. And I often found that very hard in terms of like, you, you're going to want to share something that's genuine.

That's not, you know, I'm a perfectionist or anything like that. so you want to share something that's genuine, but at the same time, you want to be solution oriented and just kind of show them that you're already working on it. It's actually not a huge problem, but it makes you a bit more tangible. I feel like.

There's a human aspect to it that makes it really interesting and, impactful at the end of the day.

[00:12:07] Jacob: Yeah, I mean, the human piece is, I think a critical element when we think about leadership. You know, I always say the two most important aspects of leadership are competence and connection. so you can't just demonstrate that you're good at your job. You also need to be able to connect with your people.

That's the connection piece. And that's where a lot of the humanity, where a lot of the leading with vulnerability stuff comes into play. and you have to have that.

[00:12:29] Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. So I actually have an example. One, one thing for me that I felt like I held back was actually some of my personality and my introversion. So early on in my career, I wouldn't, I would never admit that I'm an introvert. I would always, I would maybe say I'm an extroverted introvert. It just kind of like, Raise over the fact that, potentially, you know, pulling more energy from spending time alone.

And I knew that that could potentially be an issue in an organization that, you know, rather promotes. The extroverts into management positions and then executive positions eventually. So that was always something I felt like I needed to keep to myself. Then the more I was open about sharing it and, you know, just kind of mentioning, you know, I'm an introvert.

Here's where I take my energy from. Here's what that looks like in terms of my day to day. It actually quite helped me. And I feel like for everybody listening, that could be, one of the vulnerabilities to share is to be more open about. who you are and what works for you in terms of a, you know, work life context.

would you agree?

[00:13:36] Jacob: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I guess you could say, you know, I'm a little bit of a, ambivert. so there are lots of times where I do feel very introverted and I just kind of want quiet and, and, you know, I just want to relax and, and, and not necessarily be around other people because I get exhausted and burned out.

And then there are other times where sometimes I think it would be fun to be around other people and, go out and have fun. So. Yeah, I mean, for me, it really depends on what else is going on in my life and, and, and what's happening. so for example, if, if there's a lot going on with work and I'm feeling pretty burned out and tired and exhausted, then maybe I might want to distract myself and go out.

And so, I kind of understand both sides of it, right? I understand what it feels like to be introverted. I also understand, the, the appeal of the extroversion side too, but yeah, from a work and from a leadership perspective, I think it's okay to communicate who you are as a leader, but at the same time, I also think it's important for people, whether you're introverted or extroverted to understand what makes up a good leader.

So for example, if an introvert says. I'm introverted, therefore I don't want to communicate with my employees and I'm not comfortable giving one on one reviews. You're not going to get promoted into a leadership role. So, in other words, you can't, you can't necessarily justify what you're comfortable with, as a way to explain why you can't do certain aspects of your role. And I think that can be a challenge, right? Because even if you're introverted, guess what? You still need to do your performance reviews. You still need to have one on ones. You're still going to need to give talks to your team. You're still going to need to, you know, maybe get on a stage and, and talk to large groups of people, whether it's your team or your customers, those are still core aspects of the job.

And so I think where it becomes a challenge for some people is where. And whether it's an aversion or whether they say I'm nervous or I have anxiety or whatever it is, when those things start to get in the way of you being able to perform the duties of the role that you're in, I think that's when you start to see challenges.

but at the same time, these are also tremendous opportunities for growth. These are also tremendous opportunities to push yourself, to get out of your comfort zone and to do the things that you need to do to succeed in your role. And so I think regardless of your personality type, regardless of challenges that you might have.

We still need to remember, we're going to have to be uncomfortable to, to achieve the goals of the role that we're in, especially if it's in leadership.

[00:16:10] Hannah: yeah, no, I think that's really powerful in terms of, like, you get to share something about yourself. I, I'm, I'm an introvert. That means, after, you know, busy day, socializing and networking or, engaging with people, I'm going to need to have some time by myself to re energize and to regain some of that strength and energy.

But that doesn't mean that I can't do all the things throughout the day. Okay. To be a great leader. So I feel like, that could be a lot more powerful. and I would love, you know, more people to be more open about these sort of things. It's not just introversion. As you say, it's like some people are feeling shy or, reluctant to speak up in front of audiences, but the end of the day, they could still be doing a great job at that.

And, yeah, it just opens up. I feel like it opens doors that we may not have seen before in the organization.

[00:17:04] Jacob: Yeah. Totally agree. And then you actually made a great point on, you know, maybe you do to give that all hands, but then you also take time afterwards to recharge. Right. And, and, and that's important. And so you can kind of communicate that with your employees and say, Hey, just to let you know, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm introverted.

and so, I mean, you, you probably won't just communicate it like that. It'll probably come up in context of conversation, but once you communicate it, you can make sure for example, that after your one on ones and after the things that you do, you block off, I don't know, 15, 20, 30 minutes for yourself to do whatever you need to do to kind of get back into that right head space that you need to be in.

and yeah, that's important. I mean, even for me and, and, you know, if I go out and I socialize, Sometimes it's hard to go to sleep right away. So I need to have some downtime to relax, to quiet down, to read something to get my, I dunno what you would call it, to, to, to, to lower my temperature, so to speak.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And, and, and then it's easy for me to go to sleep. So I think we all need to be self-aware. About who we are and what we need to be able to perform in whatever environment that we're in. And whether it's having quiet time or whether it's reading or whatever it might be, don't be scared to ask for that.

[00:18:17] Hannah: yeah, yeah, I really, really like that. I think it's an important aspect of leadership or at least, you know, tapping into. what leadership means. When it comes to the journey towards becoming a great leader, I have a lot of people in my audience who are, you know, who are dabbling with the idea of becoming leaders one day.

And I feel like a lot of introverted personalities are, you know, kind of hold back or lean back from opportunities when it comes to leadership. What I want to know from you is for anyone who's considering, leadership in the future or for anyone who is already on that journey, what are some of the things that you would advise people to focus on when it comes to learning and development, but also some of the, let's say, soft skills in the organization that we're really going to need.

And some of them that, you know, are not the usual ones that some of them conventional ones.

[00:19:15] Jacob: Well, there are a few soft skills that I think are very important. We've touched on some of them. I think we touched on empathy a little bit. We've touched on, self awareness a little bit.you know, the other skills that I talked about in the book are this idea of a coach. Meaning that you help make other people more successful than you.

I talk about the skill of the futurist, which is about thinking in terms of scenarios and possibilities.I also talk about the skill of the technology teenager, which is about embracing technologies and, you know, learning how to use them. And then there's the skill of the translator, which is about listening and communication.

And, you know, this came about from the 140 CEOs that I interviewed. And I asked all of them, what are the most important skills for current and aspiring leaders? And those were, you know, the five that they identified. And, you know, of course you can come up with an infinite list of all the different skills and this and that, but I think those are the five most crucial ones for leaders to embrace.

And, and I guess you could, for the most part, put all of them under more, kind of traditional soft skills. and I think all of them are pretty important.

[00:20:17] Hannah: Yeah, I like that a lot of them, you, you can obviously already, you know, try to acquire while you're in a non leadership role and, you know, the, the coaching, sometimes there are opportunities, for that to happen. And I feel like some of it is even just. A mindset, a behavior, rather than it is something that needs to be formalized in a role.

Like, even if you don't have direct reports right away, you could still be coaching other people. You could still be looking to bring some of that into a role that currently doesn't have this. So it feels like. It feels like almost like instead of leaning back, it's like a leaning in and looking at how can I get involved?

How can I, add value here and there beyond the scope that I currently have potentially looking at, going a little bit beyond what is currently being asked of me.

[00:21:07] Jacob: Yeah. I mean, going above and beyond that, I think is an important aspect of, leadership and of success in any kind of an organization. So it is. It is an important attribute for, for people to have to embrace, right? Going above and beyond making the occasional sacrifice, especially if you want to get into a leadership role, you, you can't avoid it.

I I've interviewed a lot of CEOs and worked with a lot of executives and the more senior you become, I think the more sacrifices you can make or the more sacrifices you do make, the more that you care, the harder you work, the more time you put in, right? And that's not for everybody, you know, it's not to say that, that that's, you know, leadership and senior leadership roles are not for everybody.

But I think if you want to get into that role and that position, you should be realistic about the expectations that are required to make that, make that happen.

[00:21:55] Hannah: How do you feel about that in general, in terms of, you know, the energy management? And I feel like some of the younger generations that are now coming in seem to have. Or probably do have a very different concept of what it looks like to stay energized and work life balance and whatever we want to call it.

and now you've done so much research and have, you know, conducted so many interviews with CEOs on what does it mean to be a great leader? What's your take on how do you stay energized? How do you keep some of that balance alive and, You know, what, what's your take on just kind of like the hustle versus, versus, life?

[00:22:34] Jacob: Well, again, I think it depends on the leadership role that you're talking about. So for example, I mentioned, I just interviewed the CEO of Sam's club. He works 70 to 90 hours a week. Right. He works weekends. He does 12 hour days. He's also the 100, 000 person company. He gets paid very well. He has a lot of equity in the business.

He made tremendous sacrifices to get to where he is, but he's extremely, extremely successful and he loves the work that he does. he even told me that on the weekends when he goes visit some of his stores, he brings his kids with him and his kids love going with him to the different stores to kind of check things out.

So I think that if you want to get into that role. A senior leadership role, you will be hustling.you should not assume that you're going to have any kind of balance.I think in those types of situations, what you do is you focus on trade offs. You focus on, right? That's what it comes down to is trade offs and sacrifices.

What are the things that you are willing to sacrifice? And what are the things that you are not willing to sacrifice? So, for example, and this isn't for everybody, by the way, you know, this doesn't mean that this is always the case, but I'd say the majority are, are you going to make every single family dinner if you have aspirations to get into a senior leadership role?

Probably not. are you never going to avoid working on weekends if you're in a senior leadership role? Probably not. Are you going to make every single one of your kids sporting events if you're in a senior leadership role? Probably not.so are those the sacrifices you're willing to make? But what are the benefits there?

So for example, Sam's Club again, he brings his kids with him to some of the things that he does. sometimes his family might come with him on trips. So you have sacrifices in one area, but you also have benefits and things that you can do on the other side of things too. And so as far as how do you maintain that vigor and that hustle and all that stuff, a, you obviously have to be enjoying what you're doing.

If you're in a leadership role and you hate your job, nothing you do is going to keep you energized and reinvigorated when you show up to work every day. So you have to genuinely enjoy the work that you're doing. And then I think you put in different rules and practices in the place, to take care of yourself.

you know, the, the Sam's Club CEO wakes up at 4. 30 every morning, he goes on very long runs, sometimes he goes on 100 mile runs, does ultra marathon, runs. He eats healthy, he takes care of himself, he makes sure he gets enough sleep.so, but he also told me, yeah, does he see his friends as often as he wishes he could?

Nope. So if you want to be able to maintain whatever is required of you, then you have to ask yourself what, what is the fuel that you need to keep putting in the tanks that you can run at maximum efficiency Whether it's exercising, whether it's eating healthy, maybe it's, you know, once a year you take this big vacation where you completely disconnect with work, and a lot of executives do this, they just disappear for one to two weeks, nobody gets in touch with them unless it's an emergency and they're completely offline.

Maybe you need to do that.

[00:25:43] Hannah: I love that.

[00:25:44] Jacob: You know, maybe you do take your family with you on, on, on work trips, whatever it is, right? There are different strategies and things that you can put into play.you know, I've talked to other CEOs where when times were so stressful for them, they actually had to live separately from their family for, several weeks because, this is the CEO of a Hyundai, motor North America, Randy Parker.

He said there were plenty of times where he would be working nonstop and things were very stressful at the company. So he had to, you know, rent a house and live separately from his family for a few weeks until things calmed down because it was just too, too stressful. And there was too much going on and it was impacting the family.

It didn't mean he didn't, he didn't see his family. Of course he did. But he spent his entire time living and working out of this house until he was able to get things to where he needed them to be. He would do 10 p. m. meetings, and then he would have to wake up at 5 o'clock to do 6 a. m. meetings. So, again, is it like this for every single leader?

Probably not, but I, I haven't met or have ever talked to a leader in a senior leadership role who's working 32 to 40, 32 to 40 hours a week.I've never met an executive who, especially at that level. who has this great balance. They work hard, but they, they know what they're getting into. You know, they have conversations with their family.

They talk about these things. They, you know, it's a decision that they make and, you know, it just really has to align with what you want out of yourself and what you want out of your life.

[00:27:13] Hannah: yeah. What I really liked in what you said about that is, you know, it's not so much a balance, but it can be a blending of work life and family life. As you say, there can be, times that are obviously very stressful, but it's probably not to think of it as this is work and this is life. But to almost like accept the fact that it's likely going to.

Blend together here and there. And, what you reference of course, are, is the premier league, like what leadership looks like at its best and with, CEOs on, on top of their careers, so to speak. And, yeah, I think what is really important to highlight here is that. At that level, it becomes super, super important to be in alignment with what you're doing and to, you know, really be doing something that you actually take energy from, because otherwise, where are you going to get it?

So,

[00:28:09] Jacob: And for a lot of these executives kind of building on that point, they, they don't feel burned out because they say we like what we're doing. We get that purpose and meaning from the work that we do. And you know, same thing for me, right? I mean, I don't work at a big company. I kind of do my own thing, but I also probably work 60 hours, sometimes 70 or more hours a week.

It doesn't feel like it because I like what I'm doing. I like creating the content. I like building things. I like creating things. you know, I, I work on the weekends, I work at night, but, but I also have plenty of time for my family. So, I work on the weekends, for example, if my kids are out at a birthday party.

I work on the weekends if the kids are sleeping. But when I'm around my kids, I'm there, right? I'm not a zombie. I don't like, you know, I also, we also have dinner as a family together all the time. I don't miss any of those. you know, I don't have my phone out when I'm with my kids, I'm not on my computer when I'm with my kids, when they come home from work, or I'm sorry, when they come home from school at the end of each day, you know, I'm with them, and then I do work when they go to sleep, or I, you know, I do work when I can, and so it adds into that extra, you know, 60, 70 hours for the week, but it doesn't mean that I'm some sort of workaholic zombie who doesn't make time for friends or family or anything like that.

And I think that's what a lot of these executives have figured out is how do we do a better job of integrating our person life and our work life together so that we, you know, kind of make it work.

[00:29:30] Hannah: yeah. Yeah. Is that part of the reason why, why you actually prefer working for yourself and not for an organization? I know that you work a lot with organizations and that you speak in front of huge organizations. are some of the reasons why you would say you'd prefer to work for yourself as opposed to an organization?

And what would organizations need to do differently in order to be more attractive these days?

[00:29:57] Jacob: So what should companies do differently to be more attractive these days? I guess it depends on the role that you're trying to attract.you know, I fundamentally believe that a lot of employees care about, five things. They want to work for a leader. A good leader who takes care of them, who coaches and mentors them, who looks after them.

Employees want to be paid well. Employees want to have the opportunity to learn inside of an organization. Employees want the opportunity to advance inside of an organization, meaning to get promoted and to move ahead. And lastly, employees want flexibility. And flexibility, not just in terms of where they work, but flexibility in terms of shaping their career path. And if you can give employees those five things, I think you will create a very attractive place to work. And of course, you know, there's like the benefits and perks and well being programs and stuff like that. I don't even count that in the mix. That's

[00:30:49] Hannah: fruit baskets.

[00:30:51] Jacob: on top. But I think if you can do those core five things well, you'll create an organization where people want to be there.

[00:30:58] Hannah: Yeah, I really like that. And I think especially for some of the younger generations, I feel like these aspects of learning and advancing. are super, super important and just kind of being, being part of being part of something, being part of an environment where you can, I always feel like this element of, or this aspect of, you know, the five people that you're surrounded by, if at the end of the day, the, our work environment are one of the people that we're going to spend most of our lives with, isn't it?

So, that's super, super important in terms of like, How do I feel? Am I at my best? Am I thriving? Can I do my best? Can I bring my best to work? So, yeah, I really, really like that.

[00:31:42] Jacob: Yeah, I think it's, it's critical. but yeah, I think it's something that a lot, everyone has their own way to figure things out, right? I mean, there's no like blueprint, there's no template, different people care about different things. And I think if you have that level of self awareness where you can identify what you care about, what matters to you, what you value, where you're willing to make sacrifices and where you're not, that will kind of help you decide the path that you should be taking going forward.

and I think the challenge is that a lot of people just don't know that. And so about themselves and oftentimes they just get stuck. and, and then they don't know what to do. So once you figure these things out, it'll kind of guide you on the path that I think you should be taking going forward.

[00:32:25] Hannah: That's actually really interesting about this, piece of getting stuck. And what you mentioned earlier was, self awareness being super, super important and just kind of knowing these things about yourself. I can imagine that this is actually one of the hardest things to learn early on in your career.

It's like, what do I really want? and I feel like very early on, we, you know, the first thing we figure out is what do we not want? So, Do you have advice on how to get unstuck? How to find out, you know, who you really are, where you can add value? What are some of the capabilities that you bring, some of the strengths that you have in order to not only become, you know, self aware, but also self sufficient and almost like, you know, figure out how you, how you work before you can then have an impact on others.

[00:33:14] Jacob: yeah, I mean, you ask yourself some of these questions, right? So you ask yourself, what am I really good at? What motivates me? What zaps my energy? what am I, you know, when I wake up in the morning, what am I excited to do? And you have to know these things about yourself because if you don't know these things about yourself, nobody else is going to know them about you.

And so, you know, ask yourself these questions and once you answer these questions then you're going to have a better picture of the path that you should be taking and what you should be doing. But if you don't ask yourself these questions, you know, then I think that's when you fall into a lot of, A lot of challenges.

So there's no, there's no secret here, right? Part of, part of self awareness is knowing these things about you. And the best way to know these things about you is to ask yourself these questions. And the other thing that you can do is ask your peers, ask those around you. Ask your friends. Hey, what do you think, I'm really good at?

What do you think motivates me or zaps my energy? What do you think I'm, I'm really capable of doing? and see what your peers around you say, cause maybe there's not going to be alignment between how other people perceive you and how you perceive yourself. and if you can have those honest conversations, I think you'll get a pretty, pretty good picture.

[00:34:24] Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. That feels vulnerable in itself in terms of like

[00:34:27] Jacob: It is, it is for sure.

[00:34:30] Hannah: yeah.

[00:34:31] Jacob: There's definitely vulnerability in it. you know, but there's also tremendous value in doing that.

[00:34:36] Hannah: Yeah. What would you say is the biggest benefit of being vulnerable, of being open, of, showing some of that or, or, you know, showing some of the human side? I think you talk about the ROI of vulnerability in your book too. What would you say is the biggest benefit that people. Take away from opening themselves up

[00:34:57] Jacob: Well, there's a lot as far as business ROI in terms of productivity and innovation and things like that. but I think for an individual, the most important thing for you is that this is where your growth comes from.you cannot become a better version of yourself. Unless you understand where your gaps are and you try to close those gaps.

So if you're not leading with vulnerability and you assume that you're good and everything is fine, you're never going to become a better version of you. So if you want to get out of your comfort zone, if you wanted to get into those leadership roles, if you want to become a better version of you, You have to first acknowledge, Hey, these are the gaps that I have.

And then you have to demonstrate what you're trying to do to close those gaps. And if you're able to do that, you're going to see that you will become better in whatever it is that you're trying to do. A better speaker, a better leader, a better parent, a better son, a better friend. If you acknowledge the gaps that you have and try to close those gaps, you'll constantly be able to improve and you have to remember that the world around you is constantly changing.

[00:35:53] Hannah: So if you don't do this while the world around you changes, what happens is you're going to become a worse version of yourself by default. So, you know, it's an absolute necessity to be able to lead with vulnerability because that is how you keep up and kind of stay ahead of the curve. when it comes to, when it comes to vulnerability and it ended up being done. Well, what are some of the examples that you're seeing in organizations or in leaders? Yeah.

[00:36:23] Jacob: so it comes back to those two things that we mentioned earlier, competence and connection. So I tell a story oftentimes of, well, two CEOs. One was Hollis Harris, the former CEO of Continental Airlines. And one is the CEO of a South African energy company called Sassol. And both companies are going through a very tough time.

So And so the CEO of Continental Airlines, Hollis Harris, he sent a memo to his entire company and he acknowledged the challenges the company was going through and he talked about the economy and this and that, and then he ended his memo by telling his employees the best thing that they could do is to pray for the future of the company.

And the next day he got fired. So he was vulnerable, but there was no leadership there. Fleetwood Grobbler, same thing, CEO of Sassle. company was going through a tough time, they were 13 billion in debt, and so his board asked him to address the workforce as well. And he had a similar message. I know the company's going through a tough time, I don't know exactly how we're gonna get out of this, but then he had a leadership.

And he said, I have a vision for where we can go as a business, and I know that we can rebuild trust in the eyes of our customers and our employees, I know we have a very talented and capable team. And if you go with me on this journey, I know that we can be successful. And that's exactly what happened.

So the first example is purely being vulnerable. And the second one is being vulnerable, talking about the gaps to the business and demonstrating what, you know, how they could potentially close those gaps. Painting that picture of a better vision, telling employees to come on this journey with him. So, you know, those are some of the very many stories that I have in the book.

But I think it's just a very. clear representation of the difference between purely being vulnerable versus adding competence to the vulnerability.

[00:38:08] Hannah: Yeah, I really like that image of, you know, competence on one side, connection on the other side. The connection piece obviously makes it a little bit warmer and is something that definitely me for myself, I often have to remind myself of. I think from a personality perspective, I lean into, you know, trying to show up with, you know, competence and being professional and just kind of put together confidence strong.

And, to remind myself sometimes of that connection piece of the human piece. And I really, really like what you're saying in terms of like, they have to be married up. One does not work without the other. And, and it's just kind of such a good example of how you can add leadership in by just owning up to it, but then also by coming with a solution and coming with, and here's my vision, here's what I'm going to do, here's what I've, you know, already thought about.

So, yeah.

[00:39:07] Jacob: Gotta have both competence and connection. and I think the big challenge for a lot of people out there is they tend to focus on one or the other. You gotta do both.

[00:39:15] Hannah: Yeah. Would you say that that is something that leaders generally have to work on, not just young leaders, but

[00:39:21] Jacob: Oh, yeah,

[00:39:22] Hannah: general in terms of like

[00:39:23] Jacob: all leaders,

[00:39:24] Hannah: striking that balance?

[00:39:26] Jacob: all leaders, doesn't matter if you're a new leader or a seasoned leader. we tend to either only focus on competence, in which case people view you as being a robot who's unable to engage with others. Or we only focus on vulnerability and connecting with people, in which case a lot of your peers will view you as being incompetent.

So you have to focus on both competence and connection.

[00:39:48] Hannah: If you were to say, you know, for somebody, let's take both for somebody who leans towards competence and lacks the connection and somebody who is the opposite. Yeah. That's it. What is, what is one piece of advice that you would give them in order to just kind of try and stretch into the other, into the other corner and sort of like find a good balance there?

[00:40:11] Jacob: So if you're only vulnerable and you lack competence, then the best piece of advice is to, whenever you're being vulnerable, ask yourself how you can add competence to the mix, whether it's talking about something that you've learned, whether it's talking about something that you're trying to do to get better, whatever it is.

Try to always add something in there which showing that you are being or trying to become more competent at what you're doing. And this is specifically we're talking about in a work context

[00:40:39] Hannah: Yeah.

[00:40:40] Jacob: And if you're only focusing on competence and letting everybody know how good you are at your job, then add something in there that shows that you're trying to connect with people.

So asking, you know, how are you, how are you doing? What do you care about? What do you value? What are you working on? Trying to connect with them on a human level, kind of like you're trying to make friends. Yeah. and it's sort of hard, right? Because you can't, like, there's no blueprint on how to make friends.

I mean, you have to know how to talk to people. You have to know how to communicate with people. You have to know how to listen to what other people are saying. you have to not be on your phone when you're in front of people. You have to be self aware, in terms of knowing how you come across when you're around others.

and, and usually leaders who only focus on competence, sometimes they struggle with that. I

[00:41:22] Hannah: I really, really like that. Now, I know that we're almost running out of time. what I wanted to ask you is because And I've started with that actually is the future of organizations and the future leaders and you put so much work into just kind of like paving the way and providing leaders with tools that help them become better and that help them stay ahead of the curve.

What is. a wish that you have for the future organizations and for future leaders. How, what, what, what is the impact that you want to have with your work? And what do you wish, how, how do, how should it come to fruition in the future?

[00:42:01] Jacob: mean, everything that I do is really around, how do we create great leaders, engaged employees, and future ready organizations. So my hope, is that, you know, especially if you're listening to this conversation, people will embrace the idea of leading with vulnerability and they will try to balance those two elements of competence and connection.

you know, my, you know, everything that I try to do is to create a place where employees genuinely want to show up to work each day. And I think a lot of that starts with the leaders and the people who are running these organizations. So I hope the work that I do teaches and encourages employees around the world and leaders around the world to actually do that.

How do we put our employees first? how do we create a human centric culture? But at the same time, how do we balance that with, with the competence piece? So that's, you know, kind of a big goal, for me.

[00:42:54] Hannah: I really like that. especially because what we tend to forget is that our careers are 40 plus years of our lives. Um, yeah.

[00:43:03] Jacob: spend more time working than doing pretty much anything else.

[00:43:05] Hannah: We spend a lot of time at work and we want to make something that's enjoyable. So I can definitely get behind that. Jacob, thank you so much for joining me today. Where can everyone find you?

Find your books. What's the one book you would recommend, especially my introverted audience to read, on leadership?

[00:43:24] Jacob: sure. so I'm pretty easy to, to get in touch with my email is jacob at the future organization. com.I have a sub stack where I share, leadership stories and tips each week, which is a great leadership. substack. com. And, the book that we talked about is available wherever you can find a book. We made a URL called leadwithvulnerability.

com. As far as a book, I don't read a lot of business books. I like, for example, right now I'm reading the, the anxious generation by Jonathan Haidt and a bad therapy by Abigail Schreier. And then I'm going to be reading, a few other books that I have on my list.the next one is, the master and Margarita, which is a Russian novel by,Bulgakov.

And then I have a couple others on my list as well, but they're oftentimes not business books at all.

[00:44:14] Hannah: I love that. Big reader.

[00:44:16] Jacob: Yeah, I try. I try to find time.

[00:44:18] Hannah: Cool. Well, Jacob, thank you so much again for taking the time. And, yeah. Really enjoyed this.

[00:44:26] Jacob: Thank you for having me.