When I thought about purpose, I used to think about helping

others and changing the world in order to make it a better place.

In this episode of the podcast, we talked to Maryanne Powell, she's

been training to be a purpose guide.

And the definition of purpose that came out of our conversation that I quite liked

is that it's the place where your deep gladness and the world's deep hunger meet.

And this conversation, we talk about this idea of deep gladness or your

soul purpose and how you find it.

We talk about how it's a messy process, and we use the metaphor of the caterpillar

turning into the butterfly in order for this transformation to happen.

The caterpillar needs to turn into goo.

This goo is the messy middle the most people are scared of and find

challenging, and so don't ever go there.

It can be a difficult time.

However, we also talk about how this transition can be made less difficult

when it's done in the presence of others.

Marianne talks about how finding your soul purpose is also a process of healing,

the wounds and hurts that happen in life, the condition, our behavior, and

create our shoulds happen in connection.

And so the only way to heal is also in connection.

Another aspect of working with sole purpose is about trusting the universe.

Trusting that the universe is a benevolent place and that ultimately

we will find what we need to find.

As long as we have that trust, we don't need to try and force

purpose or intellectualize it as if it's a problem to solve.

Instead, we can follow the breadcrumbs, feeling to the joy and listen to

what the universe is telling us, which for some can be as scary as

hell as we'll never be certain when we'll get to where we need to get.

If you've been rushing to understand what purpose means to you and

how it relates to your business.

And you've struggled with trying to articulate and understand your purpose.

And I strongly recommend you listen until the end.

I think you'll find some interesting perspectives that could help you enjoy.

Right now I'm training as a purpose guide with the Purpose Guides Institutes

and feeling really excited about that feeling quite enlivened by it, which

is the point, I think the purpose.

But it's definitely been quite a journey to kind of get here.

So my background has always been in writing of different

kinds of journalism for awhile.

Charity communications for while brand and marketing is what I'm doing at

the minute in my existing business.

But the whole time I've been running a business that's been around, brand

marketing tone of voice, narrative identity, all these sorts of things, I've

also been training as a transpersonal counselor, which is again, just about

having this like bigger perspective on what's going on, bringing in all

these kinds of new skills around like listening and guiding people.

And I wasn't really sure where that was taking me.

I knew I didn't necessarily want to be a counselor.

So when the kind of purpose goading opportunity came up, it just, yeah, it

spoke to me in it and it felt white.

So that's the journey I'm on at the minute, and part of that work, I

suppose it's finding my own purpose.

So I think with all the sorts of best or most useful programs I've done this

element where you do your own bit first before you necessarily help other people.

So whether, training has council, like the first year of it, it's

going well, what's my stuff like?

And how does it get in my way?

Same with purpose guiding.

It's like, well, what's my purpose.

And how am I then take that and use that to help other people find theirs.

I'm curious about this whole aspect of.

Okay, what's out there and this need to find something that we can fix or do

something about or change that I believe most people when they think about purpose,

that's what they're thinking about.

What's this pain in the world that I can address, or what is this social issue,

challenge, problem that I can change?

Is that how you thought about purpose initially?

Or what was, what's your journey of understanding purpose?

Good question.

So yeah, so first of all, I should probably just explain that the

court, when I talk about purpose, I'm also talking about like soul

level purpose as in S O U L.

So which is a kind of specific way of thinking about that rather

than just a general purpose.

So I I have this way of phrasing it.

got abducted by soul, which is another way of saying I had a big kind of creative

burnout and how to so I was on one path and and abruptly stopped on that path and

realized that whole way of working and living wasn't really working out for me.

And to be able to do my starting point for purpose, wasn't even necessarily

about like, how can I go out into the world and help to fix something?

It was more like I've been living in this way or working in this way

and really hasn't worked for me.

And I knew that I don't want to do it anymore, but I don't

quite know what I do want to do.

And uh, sort of having a period of kind of really quite intense

searching and frustration.

And I know this old thing isn't right, but where's the new thing and quite a

challenging time, I guess, around that as well to sort of try and see where

next and what would actually feel good and in alignment, if that makes sense.

And in the middle of it, it's quite hard to make sense of it.

It's I know I've got all these skills.

I know I've got all this passion.

I want to direct it somewhere, but I can't quite figure out where I'm

doing this thing and I don't want to be doing it, but, and so it's

been a, it's been a weird time.

So yeah, I think.

I know some people come at it and I think that's amazing as well to

come out with that social purpose.

For me, I was like, had an even more fundamental purpose, which was, or

fundamental driver, which was like, how can I actually start to enjoy by

life and, and feel like I'm really providing something useful in the world.

I don't know, for some reason the word meaning springs to mind.

And then what for you is the relationship between what I'm hearing you describe

as purpose and this idea of meaning?

Good question.

Meaning.

Well, as humans, we're making meaning all the time.

We're making stories out of everything.

Like we've, there's no such thing as a neutral perspective, we've

got a lens on how we see life and we're making meaning all the time.

So I suppose, how can we uncover a sense of deeper truer meaning, so find

the lens that's true for us and start to bring that out into the world?

And I guess, meaning connects and into that idea of feeling useful, feeling of

service, feeding, that kind of, we're not just here on this planet to kind

of mess about for 70 years and, I don't know, have some nice experiences along

the way and meet some nice people.

Great.

Those things hopefully will happen.

But like that, there's something, there is something a little bit.

There is a reason why we've been asked to live here on this planet at

this time and this particular form.

As um, you said something before, around this, isn't working for me

now, but I need to find, I dunno what it is that will work for me.

And so there's this transition of going from one way of living, to trying to

find another way of living and then that between messy bit of what is that?

Yeah, and it is messy.

So I call it like the butterfly metaphor.

So if you think about it, you're a caterpillar.

And then at some point you're going to become a butterfly.

So as a human, what I want as a, as a.

Inpatient kind of egoy human I'm, like, I just want to flick a switch and I just

wanna be like this thing doesn't work.

Can I just flip the switch and start the new thing?

And can it happen tomorrow?

And can it be really easy and can it be completely effortless and can I

not have to do anything hard at all?

That's what I want.

No.

What is more like is, you're a caterpillar, you go into your cocoon and

at a certain point, like you dissolve into goo, that's how it works before.

Like in between being a caterpillar and becoming a butterfly, you have a host

whole phase, which is just being a whole load of goo And then from that goo a

butterfly emerges and you really have to fight your way out of the chrysalis.

Like it, doesn't just, it, doesn't just it, doesn't just got part the ways.

And it's that kind of process that I think helps to prepare

you for whatever that purpose is.

Yeah, it is a crazy lifestyle.

Cause I'm like, wouldn't it?

I still wish I could be like, yeah, I'm just gonna pick a switch it afterwards.

But but yeah, it like, it, the kind of the struggle is part of the story.

The struggle is part of it.

It's not like it's not because something's gone wrong is because

changing and transformation, and whether it's a butterfly, whether

you use an alchemy metaphor, there's always a bit that's about things.

Whether you look at a hero's journey or her ruins, Danny, there's always

a bit that about this is really hard and frustrating and difficult,

and I don't know where I'm going.

I think to some extent any creative endeavors, always,

there's always a messy bit.

I think it's just levels of messiness, maybe.

So I think me, Carlos, we're getting clarity on what we're doing, but there's

always an element of, ooh, you can never be too clear about what you're doing.

So I think probably depending on what stage you're at I think of the I

know you've read the book the Second Mountain book, we talked about this

valley between the two mountains.

It makes me think of that.

This idea of you're on a new adventure and you're in that liminal bit, whether it's a

bit of uncertainty, it's exciting, scary.

Both of those emotions come up.

But for me, I think there's something around it being a journey.

And one thing, it's, it is a journey.

It's not like you said, flick a switch and it's done.

It feels to me, there's a understanding that it's an evolution

of process that gets clearer.

So I like the metaphor of the statue that hasn't been carved at, and you're

just chipping away at the rock and then eventually it starts to become clearer

what the, what that statue might be.

And that's certainly been, my journey is understanding that purpose for me

has been more, I would say process of elimination in some ways, but

understanding I don't want that.

That's not good for me.

Something that is good for me.

I start to get more curious about that and just sensing and responding.

And then over time that sort of, that picture becomes clearer.

But like you said, it's frustrating because you want it

to be not, you want it to be now.

And I think that's one thing we see with people is we want to help them

get to that point, but also you can't force it because it just doesn't work.

Just feels too much.

Like I need results.

I wanna I'm want full clarity today so I can move forward and

get to where I want to get to.

I've been thinking about this a lot.

Cause for me, I feel like a garden metaphor really makes sense.

So like I did a whole bunch of clearing out, like the metaphor of speaking,

clearing out my brambles clearing out of the weeds, having this patch

of kind of bare earth for a while.

And for a long time, you're like, you're looking at it's bare earth and you're like

nothing's happening, and it really doesn't feel like anything's happening, but it is

all there kind of going on under the soil.

And when I try to rush things, which I do all the time, like I'm not coming to

this from some point of like, oh, I'm now super spiritual and I never, like, ever.

Get this wrong.

I still am really impatient, I still want it to happen quickly.

But you know, it's like, you know, if you plant some daffodils in October, you

probably don't go out and start shouting at them in November and be like, come on.

Why haven't you bloomed yet?

You know what?

What's going on?

Like things take time to bloom and blossom.

So we sometimes have to accept that sometimes we're under the soil.

So we've got caterpillars and Chrysalis.

We've got gurney, we've got rock.

She's the writer.

What were they giving you?

People lots of different pictures to create in their minds to see

which works best for them, which I think is important about this.

There's an aspect of here from my experience of working with entrepreneurs,

making this transition to work that aligns with who they really are.

And that's the core of this is that's great, but who am I?

Supposed to mean?

So there's this in one sense that I, as business owners, as Changemakers, there's

this idea of what's the vision, what is the world that you want to create?

Where do you want to go?

But an absence of that and absence of being on this journey where you don't

necessarily know exactly where you're going, you just got a vague direction,

what, how do you guide yourself?

And what's that compass that you're going to use and what I was really intrigued

by talking to you, Marianne and given what myself and Lawrence are exploring

and trying to help others explore, is this idea of being guided by joy or being

guided by this, as I'm going to say, in the sense of wellbeing, inner knowing

or inner acceptance, whatever it may be is just feeling okay, I'm going to trust

something else other than what's going up here in terms of logical thinking.

So yeah it comes back to that kind of quote of that, the place where your deep

gladness meets the world's greatest needs.

So what is your deep gladness?

So I know for me, it's felt like a bit of a breadcrumb trail.

Like I haven't yet.

Had a kind of immediate sense of yes, it's this it's this, but at every stage, can I

follow the bright spots, the things that feel the most good, the most energizing?

I think often we get into this very problem solving mode and I

know that's a trap I fallen into.

It's I don't like this thing.

So how can I change this thing to make it better?

The good thing about me is I've tried lots of different things

and lots of them haven't worked.

Made loads of mistakes.

So I've wasted a lot of energy problem-solving and actually

what's been the most helpful thing has been like what do I love?

What do I enjoy?

What do I do effortlessly without trying?

And how can I expand that, expand the bright spots

rather than trying to kind of.

endlessly get in this cycle of what is it, what should I be doing and how do

I change this so that it becomes this?

And in terms of what that looks like, I think it is like, it is a

sort of a felt sense of rightness is that sense of flow that you get when

you're really absorbed in something.

It's not that you necessarily have to fear that all the time, but it's

like what are the polices and the activities and the ways of being that

support, that feeling of joy flow energy and how can you have more of them?

The other thing that I think I found this really helpful is that

this idea of purpose as being and doing, it's not, I think we can get

a bit over-focused on the doing.

So the model that I'm learning is that we all have this kind

of mythiopoetic identity.

We all have this core identity within us that speaks to who we are

and what we might do in the world.

And we have like a number of delivery vehicles that we might

express this purpose through.

So our purpose isn't the same as our job title or job title isn't our purpose.

We have this deeper core, this deeper identity, and we might manifest that

and all kinds of different ways.

We might manifest that in terms of how we're a friend, how we're a parent,

how we're a partner, how we show up in the world in loads of ways.

And our work is just one delivery system and we might try one

delivery system and it might be great, and then we might change it.

So I think there's something about it's helpful to separate

those two things as well.

What springs to mind is.

Whether you believe we live in an uncertain world, or whether it's a very

linear track and you just do this thing and continue doing it and it won't change.

And how, given the past couple of years we've been living in given how I believe

the world really works in terms of there's not much you can control, how can you

respond from a place of power for one of the burners place of certainty so

that whatever you do, it can change, but it's always still coming from your

own deep sense of wellbeing, wellness, acceptance, knowing where you going, what

you're all you're here to do in a sense.

Yeah, totally.

I think that comes from like maybe having an and finding like what your

core values are and what you really want to stand for in the world.

So we don't get to, we don't get to choose three what's happening around us.

So we might, we have choices about what we do, but we don't get to, like,

none of us asked for COVID happened.

So in the middle of that, it's who, who do I want to be in the middle of this?

What do I want to stand for in the middle of it?

I can't control, there's actually very little, I can control that side of

myself, but I have limitless influence on how I choose to respond, how I choose

to react, who I want to be in this.

So for me, for example, alongside my like whole mythic poetic mythopoetic identity

piece of this whole kind of thing, like I've chosen for myself four words

that for me are like my guiding values.

And for me that's trust, connection, compassion, and joy.

And every morning I have a little moment where I feel into those things.

And if I'm facing a challenge in the day, it's okay, what do I need?

Who do I need a bit of trust?

Okay, everything's going to be fine.

Do I need a bit of connection?

I need to check in with someone else about this.

Am I bringing enough joy into it?

So in a very kind of.

You don't have to do it like that.

That's how I've chosen to do it.

So I find it quite helpful, but just some sense of what is at the core of

me that actually isn't changing, even if no matter what's going on around me.

And yeah, and the job and the work and the relationships and everything else

might change, but there's something in me.

So I'm going to play a bit of devil's advocate here.

That would mean

trying to channel his inner Jeremy Paxman.

Oh, my word.

I'm scared already,

but there's this element of oh, that's so self-indulgent and is like, why, that's.

That's all well and good.

You feeling happy and nice, there's, that's not what the, how the world

is supposed to work in, it's new.

We're supposed to be, helping each other life is supposed to be a struggle

and, we're supposed to be striving.

And if it hasn't if it doesn't have any effort in it, isn't worth doing.

Yeah, totally.

And, I have a story running in my head that things have to be hard.

I have to, I have to work really hard to be like, oh, if I do it, if

I don't struggle and effort and grasp that I'm never going to get anywhere.

So yeah.

I have that story winning.

So this week I think is really interesting about this and that

idea of it being self-indulgent.

So I came across this whole purpose guiding work, like I found it in a very

roundabout way, but the starting point for me was reading a book that was actually

about environmental activism and on the face view so I think how environmental

activists and finding your purpose.

Maybe if your purpose is to be an environmental lawyer, those things link.

But what I've come to understand through doing this work is the most important

thing you can do for the planet as it is right now, and for the future of the

planet, as that we're all living on is to find and embody, your deepest joy, and

to find and embody your deepest purpose.

And if you think about where we're at, and if you think about the way that like,

consumerism and loneliness and isolation and all these kinds of challenges that

we're facing as humans I think, I believe that we're we're trying to fill this.

kind of Lack of meaning and this lack of soul with all these other

things, and that's kind of part of why we're in the mess we're in.

So finding finding a way to be happy, content in flow in alignment like

it is making us a better human, and is creating a better world.

It's one of the best things, and the highest purposes we can have

is to find live and embody our joy.

Active Hope is my favorite book about the environmental crisis that I always

recommend because it's about, like, we have choices, we can do something.

We're not at the end of the story.

We're in the middle of the story.

Like we could still, we can do stuff.

Reminds me of um, uh, Seth, the place we did the retreat, Carlos, in September,

he talked about inner activism and how he'd see a lot of environmental activists

actually burn out because they were all about the world and the problems

and fixing other people, not actually looking closer to home, like you said.

We talked a bit about this before, didn't we Marianne about are you the

best person to solve that problem?

And are these people who you feel you want to help wanting your help?

Yeah.

I think sometimes that can be the spirit of like, oh, I have to go out

into the world and I have to help people and I have to go and like work

for charity or be a charity or, you know, and if that's your deep gladness

then great, do it, that's brilliant.

But if you show up with the energy of I'm here to try and make myself feel better

and actually, I don't really want to be here, you're probably not helping the

other person, and you're probably not, you're certainly not helping yourself.

So yeah, I think anything that's about, I should be doing this, I

ought to be doing this, I should be, living in a different country and not.

I, I don't know what the right, that's not so easy example, that

anything that's like the should is probably not particularly helpful.

And so in terms of shifting these shoulds then what in term in your

work and this purpose guiding is there something that you've discovered

that helps people not get guided by stuff that isn't really for them?

Yeah, definitely.

And I think this is where the, probably the combination of some of the things

I've learned around therapy and intergenerational stuff, coincides

with some of the purpose guiding stuff, which is, like to some level or

another, we're all living a purpose.

It's just that if we're, if we haven't examined it, we might be living a kind of

default purpose that isn't really ours.

So we might be living a purpose that's been handed down to us consciously

unconsciously by somebody else.

We might be living a purpose that's society's telling us to do.

And we just haven't even noticed.

So the first step really is examining what are we believing about the world and

what are we believing about ourselves?

And just this idea of shame and kind of clearing shame.

And it's true is like looking at what are all the things that I'm believing

about what's happening around me.

And not even trying to change them to begin with, but just almost making a

list and going, oh yeah, here are the things that I seem to be here with the

lenses that I'm putting on the world, oh, everything has to be really hard.

Oh, I can't trust anybody.

Oh, I have to make a certain amount of money to feel worthy.

Oh, I'm not allowed to make money or I'm not worthy.

Whatever the thing might be.

So as soon as we can identify what are our sort of default beliefs and our default

purpose, then I think we can start to clear through them a little bit, work

through them, get a better understanding of this is something that's passed down

to me because three generations ago, this belief made perfect sense, but oh

look, I actually haven't updated it.

And now something really different is true.

And yeah, I think it's that kind of clearing space rather than necessarily

adding new things in to begin with.

If that makes sense.

Yeah.

It seems very clear and simple to me.

There's a way of looking at the world that's pushing you down a certain

direction and you question whether those, that perspective is really

your perspective or someone else's.

Yeah.

That transition though, of then shifting saying, oh yeah, that isn't really me.

Who am I?

For some people is bloody scary and there's like, oh,

I don't want to go there.

I just plugged back into the Matrix and do more of my pre programming to do.

If someone was out there thinking, oh, I really need to do this, but it's,

I dunno, it feels like it's going to turn me go into complete chaos and

then I have no idea what's going to happen, then it's really scary, how

would you invite someone to look at that in a different way to avoid?

Because it feels like there could be a butterfly on the end of that

journey trying to mix or so badly.

But that middle messy middle bit that everyone was talking about before is

that's just, I don't want to be there.

That's like a dark despair that feels just too painful to go to.

I think that our soul is speaking to us all the time and if there's something

inside of us that needed to be burst out into the world, like the energy

and support will be there to do it.

And what that can, I guess that's what that can look like is actually

a sort of slow gradual process.

Actually that whole kind of big bang thing of I'm jacking everything

in and I'm going to do this.

Like sometimes that might be appropriate.

I've quit jobs without having another job to go to twice.

And both times it works out really well.

But it doesn't have to be that it is about, I guess that's where

it comes back to the idea of a breadcrumb trail and small steps

and moving in the direction of soul.

And, once you're on the path, you're on the path and the messy middle is going to

happen, whether you want it to, or not.

I think, this idea that we can cut of prevent it or stop it or

change it is like we call it.

It's just, that is what's going to happen.

But yeah, I guess we can support ourselves by by having company.

So not feeling like we have to do it on our own and whether that's through

a therapist, whether that's through a purpose guide, whether that's to an

amazing community like this one, which I think is genuinely transformative, like

all of those things can help support us.

So it's not that you have to do it on your own.

But yeah, I think understanding that the messiness isn't that I'm

failing because it has felt like it sometimes it's that it's messy because

something different is happening.

And the things, the ways of being and the skills and the tools that

I learned in the old world don't necessarily serve me anymore.

So I'm having to learn new ways of being, and that takes a bit of time sometimes.

And let me mention spiraling.

Spiraling for me is that is the motion to think about in terms of any change.

We tend to think about change as being like, this kind of upward curve or

climbing a mountain, but actually changing growth is much more of a spiral model.

Like we keep bumping into the same things again and again, and we keep learning from

them and then we grow in a different way.

So I think that's, I think that's really helpful.

Well, I was just thinking about the word trust, really when you mentioned it as

one of your key words, and I wondered how much that plays a part, when you think

of what did he see something in moving towards purpose or something like that?

It makes me think of ultimately, it feels if you can trust in yourself,

then you'll start listening to that more versus doubting yourself and getting

swayed by other people or society's view on what you should be doing.

Yeah, I think it is about it's learning to trust myself, definitely, and

ourselves, but I think it's also learning to trust the universe, like learning

to trust, the bigger picture that we don't, like, we don't see all of it.

And so sometimes things that don't, that feel hard to understand.

Like we don't, maybe we don't have to understand them.

Like we're not in charge of none of us.

Like we don't run the universe.

Like we're here to live our version of our best life, but actually there's,

there is this whole bigger picture.

And I like the reason that I have trust the value is.

It's not because I find it easy it's because I find it really hard.

So I have to remind myself every day.

And there's this lovely quote from Einstein.

Actually, he says, the one fundamental question that we can ask ourselves as

a universe, as a human is do we believe the universe is a friendly place or not?

And that doesn't mean that bad things might not happen, bad

things do happen of course.

But do we believe that the universe is a friendly place?

You know, are we going to every point, are we going to choose trust?

Are we going to choose love or are we going to choose connection or are we going

to choose like fear and disconnection?

And I'm really like all choices, probably just boil down to that.

Don't they, it's the, it's the Marianne Williamson return to love.

Is it love or fear?

Is the universe for any place or not?

And if the universe is a friendly place and no matter what's happening, there's

something useful that we can take from it.

Yeah.

So all the challenges that I've had less for years in terms of not knowing

what I'm doing, feeling frustrated, feeling stuck, like how useful are

they now for me now, as I start to guide people through, through purpose

and change and transformation?

What I heard earlier was this aspect of being with others or

doing this with other people.

Navigating this journey or going through the spiral with other people.

What is it from your perspective or even your own personal experience

that might just want people to have people just stay, try and work it

out on their own and the challenges that you see, or maybe the benefits

of trying to do it all by yourself.

I think so again, it can be like an old story that we're running.

So for me, I, you know, I have like my, I have a story from yield and

days of being a human that like, I've just got to figure this out on my own.

I've just got, you know, and, and it's one of those, sometimes it's

such a kind of sneaky belief that we don't even know it's there.

We just think that's how the world is.

So that I think there's certainly a kind of proportion of people who will have

this sneaky belief running around in their head that especially if you she says

modestly, if like me, you believe yourself to be a reasonably small individual,

you're like I'm a clever person.

I got loads of A's at school, I just need to, if I just sit and, I just need

to figure this out, and this idea that it's very rational and that's very heady.

So I think that can be a reason why we can believe that we have to do it on our own.

I think that there is a piece of the work that is just us to be fair.

So like we, there is a piece of the work that's about, cause this

is work, that's going inwards.

That's not about getting other people to do that for us, but I think it's

more, can we have company as we go onto this as we go on this inward journey.

And certainly if I think about it in terms of the challenges, you know, all

of my learning from again from therapy is this idea that like the the wounds

or the hurts or the challenges that we have in life, happened in connection, so

they can only really healing connection.

That's why reading a self-help book is great, and I've got a lot from reading

self help books over the years, but if we really want to change something, the

change only happens in connection with another human, because the wound or the

hurt or whatever you want to call, it happened in connection with another human.

In terms of your journey now since we've known you, I've known you

seeing you be part of the community, you you're on the program, but then

you started to contribute more.

So you started the Write Club, which was a weekly spate or bi-weekly space to come

and write together to build that habit.

And so it was interesting seeing from, I'm just thinking from a really practical

point of view, seeing how you showed up to that and then realized actually, I

don't want to be helping people to write.

But what I saw from that was people loved the space you created.

And I could see really blossom in that space as a coach, as

a guide, as a facilitator.

And so wondered whether, like you said, this is a kind of reflection from others.

How that, how important that is in terms of you realizing I tried that, but I

didn't enjoy that particular focus.

Yeah, I guess it, that it's that kind of learning by doing piece, isn't it?

And again, if we're thinking about connecting to deep gladness, like

we can have a, our idea in theory of what we think will make us happy, but

it's not until we put it out on the road that we go, oh, actually this

thing that on paper makes total sense, like I've been around for 20 years.

I write songs and poems and plays oh, in creativity, maybe

that's where I should be going.

And actually it's oh no, okay.

That's not I love my own writing and I love my own creativity.

But if I think about the journey that I want to help other people on,

then actually that isn't the journey that is the one that I want to guide

people on because that's not that hasn't been my biggest struggle and

I want to guide people on the journey that's been my biggest struggle.

So I guess it's a kind of learning by doing and yeah.

Learning in connection with others because yeah, again, it's just, it

takes it away from being theoretical.

I'm curious about this connection between this personal sense of purpose

and knowing that you're in the right place or you're able to be guided by

a joy or inner sense of, of knowing.

And then how this relates to, and we are the Happy Startup School, starting

new businesses doing work in the world.

Are you able to see how they marry up connect, contribute to each other?

Are they totally separate?

Are they connected?

So for me, when I have been trying to launch a business without the connection

to soul purpose, like I just, haven't got very far, and it's felt so frustrating.

I'm sure there's people like Lawrence, Carlos.

You've both heard me like, be like, ah, like literally tearing my hair out

about like, why can't I get any more?

I remember you saying this, like not just yourself, everyone.

Why is it so hard for people to actually get shit done?

Yeah.

It's really.

Yeah, exactly.

So for me, the connection is.

And again, like this is so like I've been in the crunchy freezes

and this week I'm doing Friday.

If I decided with you and I had a lovely chat with Frances and Simon on Monday.

Why now?

Why is this happening now?

For me, I connected into what my soul purpose is and what that gave me a

sense of energy and excitement and enthusiasm that gives me the fuel and

the momentum to go out there and do it.

Because starting a business is hard.

I think I mean it you know it doesn't have to be crazy hard.

There are, I'm not saying I don't mean no, it's a real struggle.

We all do it.

Of course it isn't like, but you know, there, there, there are parts.

If you start a business, you all run into challenges.

Of course you will.

What's the fuel.

That's going to get you through?

If the fuel is just coming from your ego, then you might find that it runs out quite

quickly, or you might do what I did in my old job, which is that kind of, I'm

being fueled by ego I'm being fueled by I want to get to a particular job title.

I'm going to, I'm going to feel myself with 15 coffees a day and working too hard

and, oh, look, I've had a massive burnout.

So if the fuel that you've got for your work is either the fuel of like

validation from somebody else or a a should sense, like when you get

to a struggle, like you might not be able to get over the hump of it.

When you're fueled by the energy of a soul purpose, you're like, oh, I'm just gonna

find a way to hop on over this, or I'm just gonna, oh, I'm just gonna, because,

and again, this is just my experience, because all of a sudden I've got like

the motivation and the the passion to, to actually do it and to do things that

might not be instantly straightforward.

So that, that's what it's given me a sense of energy and kind

of feeling enlivened by it.

I think when I, when we had the idea of the Happy Startup School, for

me, it was like, this has to happen rather than I want this to happen.

Yeah.

It's a subtle thing.

But it just, in terms of a feeling, it was more, there was an inner knowing, I know

what you call it, but it was like, this is something coming through us through

me that I feel is just going to happen.

It wasn't even like a, I would like it to work.

It's gonna work because I want it to work.

And so I wonder whether for you, does that feel different?

Does it feel like this is, this has to happen for you or you're still open to

right now is all I need is to have this motivation to move this idea forward.

I think that having the motivation is just like at a certain point,

if there's something that needs to exist in the world it will come,

it can come to exist through you.

Like it, if something needs to be birthed out into the world, it will it

will make it, it will it will happen.

I'm trying to think of a good example.

I guess for me songs happen.

Like I sit down to write a song.

I don't really know how they happen, but they just they just appear through me.

I'm not even a particularly talented or not a very skilled musician.

I'm a beginner, but somehow there's a song in the world.

And by sitting down with a guitar and having some attention and focus and

having, putting some time and space to it, like kind of songs appear.

And I think maybe the same is true for other kinds of cars, businesses,

creative expression, businesses are super creative expression.

So the things will come.

I think that's my sense.

Where I'm at is this idea of wellbeing and work and how following

this idea of tapping into this sole purpose, connected to that sole

purpose to go to this inner purpose.

That being the source of wellbeing rather than the tangible outcomes

and structures and strategies that we create through work.

Because, as much as I, I agree with Lawrence, there's this, in a

sense, there's a you're channeling something, maybe there's the Happy

Startup School was something that was to be channeled and to be created.

I I'm at a space now where I love talking to people about doing this.

I love hosting holding space.

I love learning.

I love reading.

I love this idea of how can I find a way of being happy and doing work and putting

food on the table and not to feel like, oh what's going to come up on the future.

And what, w how am I going to achieve that?

And that to be just like, oh, that's that whether that's the Happy Startup

School, whether that's, I don't know, some other thing that comes up, we've

had various ideas, but each thing in itself is just something that, that

brings joy for the sake of doing it.

And sometimes it makes money and sometimes it doesn't.

And how that, when you're talking about this kind of, every business

is a kind of a creative endeavor.

I agree too, with you to a point, depending on the system or the

framework that you're looking at.

Because I think there's a lot of people who see a system

of money and transactions.

And this is there's some rules to be played by, and they're just following

those rules and there's other people I feel who just looking, trying to

create their own rules around work.

And so there's this element of actually, if I'm warm, I understand if anybody

following this kind of purpose route, this inner purpose route, what happens outside

doesn't really matter in the end, you will find what needs to be done and you'll do

what needs to be done as long as you're always aligned with what makes you happy.

Yeah.

I guess there's a few things around that.

So the first thing is I think that, I guess if I think about it in

relation to goals and achievements and where you're trying to get to.

So any goal that you can think of, there's usually a feeling state attached

to it, even if you have a money goal.

I have plenty of goals around money, but it's like, what's the feeding that I'm

trying to achieve with that while I'm trying to achieve a feeling of security

and stability, or if I, if I, if I want to get one X amount clients or whatever, but

that's because I want to, you know, I want to feel like I'm being useful or valuable.

So I think there's often a real value in focusing on the feeling state and

actually experiencing I think sometimes we do it backwards rather than being

like, oh, I need to achieve this goal in order to have this feeling.

The thing that kind of probably works the best is what's the feeling I want?

How can I experience in even more of it now?

And then I'll probably be more likely to attract the things that I want.

So I think that's one part of it.

And then in relation to money so I I talked to you about this for cause, but

I think I really liked this idea of.

We're all in, we're all trying to navigate these things, so there's

the sacred dance and the sister Bible dance, and we need both.

So none of us is about oh, I'm just going to give everything up and live on

air for six months because my passion tells me that, it's not that we're

humans, we're living in a human world.

We're not living in a spiritual dimension, we're living in a human

dimension, even if we bring a spiritual or a soul or a whatever, whatever

expression it makes sense to you.

So yeah it's fine to make money.

It's important.

Like it's part of what allows us to keep manifesting what we want in our lives,

but can we do both, can we do the sacred dance and the survival dance, yeah.

I'd love to see that dance off.

Maybe at Summer Camp.

Mmm.

I'm a big fan of interpretive dance.

So anyone who wants to come and do a sacred dance, survival

dance session with me yes.

Why not?

Crazy legs.

Headspins body popping.

Yeah.

Yeah exactly.

Before we finish off is there anything that you'd like to

share with people watching?

If they want to explore more about this kind of going inwards around purpose uh,

or they'd like to hear more from you, where would you point them, Marianne?

So my plan for next year is I'm training as a purpose guide.

So I'll be taking on a few pro bono clients for that to go through quite an

intensive sole purpose discovery program.

But alongside that, I'm looking at running some different events, programs that

are all about pathways into purpose.

So this idea that I think there's quite a lot of different ways to come at this.

So there's a way that's about navigating by joy.

There's a wave that's more about looking at the obstacles.

There's probably some ways around creative expression expression, story myth.

So just creating a whole sort of suite of ways into purpose for

anyone who's interested in exploring purpose a little bit deeper with me.

So it's a kind of a watch this space because I've been a bit too

much in my sacred dance this week, I've been having lots of very

lovely soul discovery sessions.

And yes.

Thanks.

Thanks Lawrence for, yeah.

Yeah.

But yeah, LinkedIn, I will actually start to after a year I've not promoted.

No, actually after about four years of not promoting anything that I do whatsoever

I will actually start promoting these.

But not in a scary spammy way.

Maybe, I don't know.

I might be scary.

My.

Maybe that's your survival dance.

If you are interested in doing this well, I would encourage you to explore this.

If you have been spending a lot of time trying to work out outside, what is that?

Am I supposed to do?

What thing problems am I supposed to solve?

What changed?

And it's just, hasn't been working or you're being overwhelmed with analysis

paralysis, trying to understand and think your way through it.

Then I really encourage you to yeah, to see what Marianne could offer you and to

hear her stories and journeys around this.

Thanks, Carla.

Before we leave some final, some closing thoughts, what have you, where have

you got to through this conversation?

And yeah.

Any epiphanies or deeper understandings.

First of all, this idea that, that chaos is a positive.

And I think that's something that I think, this whole idea about the

creative void, that bit where there's nothing happening and it feels

terrifying, but that is actually a really creative part of the process.

So I think that's something I would want people to go away with, especially

if you're in the chaos, feels really terrifying, but it's it's okay.

And yeah, I think just a sense of.

I think we talked about being a burden as well.

And that was my fear.

Like, oh, what if my sole purpose wants me to go off and

do something I don't want to do?

But actually like for me, sole purpose has been just incredibly

energizing and enlivening.

So if it doesn't feel any dosing and enlivening, it's probably, I

mean, I don't remember when we all have like our day to day admin.

I'm not saying you can never look at an Excel spreadsheet, but if it's not if the

core of what you're doing is an energizing and enlightening, that is probably

not connected to your soul purpose.

I think there's always that fear isn't there that, oh, I need to do this.

Isn't my next project work out my life's purpose.

And it feels big and heavy, and so it's easy just to avoid it.

But the blinkers on forgetting.

So, um, I'd say, just try and enjoy the journey because the messy middle

is where the fun is, I think, and it sounds like Marianne's on that journey

of getting opportunities come your way.

And then them feeling exciting whilst also trying to work it out rather than trying

to work it out and then doing stuff.

I think the thing I'm going to take away this difference between the sacred dance

and the survival dance or these two dances that were we're potentially trying to do.

And I think of silent disco.

And when you have this you can just switch the tune.

So on one tune, yeah, I can, I've got this idea of this, like really

creative, I'm just going to this, and you're just doing your own thing and

then you switch it and then everyone's doing a line dance and that's just

the Bible does, this is there's a system where your money and marketing.

And then as we're all gonna, there's a way that we all done.

And then just trying to switch between those two dancers really, I feel is the,

is an interesting view for me because I think that more internal creative

going to move how I want to move thing that, that, yeah, you can having a

bunch of people doing that in a room.

A it's hilarious.

but be just seems completely different to the world of business where everyone seems

to be lined, dancing to the same tune.

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