[00:00:00] Dr Renee White: Knowledge is power, and we are all about empowering the mamas of the world. In each episode, we will unravel and interpret the latest research and evidence-based practices for pregnancy, postpartum, and motherhood. [00:00:15] As mums and researchers ourselves, we have experienced firsthand the overwhelming complexity of information myths and those classic old wives tales.

[00:00:27] Dr Renee White: I'm Dr. Renee White, and this is the [00:00:30] science of motherhood. Hello and welcome to episode 190 of The Science of Motherhood. I am your host, Dr. Renee White. Today's episode is proudly brought to you by Fill Your Cup, Australia's first doula [00:00:45] village where science backed birth and postpartum care that actually works.

[00:00:51] Dr Renee White: We have combined over 16 years of health and expertise with nurturing care. Essentially you can recover [00:01:00] faster, bond deeper, and embrace motherhood with confidence, not the chaos. If you're pregnant, if you know someone who is pregnant or has just had a new baby, and maybe they don't have that village [00:01:15] around them, maybe they don't have the structure of family and friends close by, or they're all working and they've got their own lives to essentially sort out like all of us, and you know, [00:01:30] perhaps you are feeling a bit anxious and overwhelmed about bringing this new bundle of joy into your life. We have an amazing collection of doulas across Australia, both birth doulas [00:01:45] and postpartum doulas, and we are essentially your birth keepers.

[00:01:49] Dr Renee White: We are non-medical professionals who hold your hand through pregnancy and birth there throughout the [00:02:00] labor. We provide emotional support. We are essentially like your birth cheerleaders and in the postpartum we come to your house, we cook you meals, you get to choose from a beautiful, [00:02:15] nourishing, postpartum specific menu.

[00:02:17] Dr Renee White: We hold your baby while you go and have a nice long hot shower. And we hold space for you, make a nice warm cup of tea, and we just sit and talk with you. [00:02:30] You know, lend that non-judgmental ear. So if that sounds appealing to you, if you want to step into parenthood with confidence and not feel overwhelmed [00:02:45] and get that unwavering support you deserve during pregnancy and birth and postpartum, you might want to check out some of our offerings and our beautiful doulas.

[00:02:58] Dr Renee White: You can check that all out at [00:03:00] i fill your cup.com. And we also have a range of free postpartum planning guides on our website as well. Just in that top banner when you, when you head over to there. If you've got [00:03:15] any questions about our doula services, please feel free to, um, check us out over at Instagram.

[00:03:22] Dr Renee White: At Fill your Cup, you can send me a DM or you can just head over to our contact page on the [00:03:30] website. I fill your cup.com. Okay, let's dive into today's episode. We have got the beautiful Meghan Hockey. She is a mum of two little boys. She's also an accredited [00:03:45] practicing dietician who specialises in mental health, which I find absolutely fascinating.

[00:03:52] Dr Renee White: You know, we always hear that our gut is the second brain and this gal. Knows what she's [00:04:00] talking about. She's completed her PhD in Nutritional psychiatry, uh, with Deacon University's Food and Mood Center and has published over 20 peer reviewed papers in the field. Now that is. That is quite a [00:04:15] feat. She's got her online clinic, which she now combines, um, the latest science in nutrition and the gut brain connection, and really kind of her whole passion is to help people better manage anxiety, [00:04:30] low mood, postpartum depression, and gut health concerns.

[00:04:34] Dr Renee White: Today we are gonna be really kind of focusing in on that postpartum depression piece. This is a fascinating interview. I, I [00:04:45] just had so many questions. I was so excited for this one because I am a huge advocate for we are what we eat in more ways than one, not just our physicality, but also our mental health.

[00:04:57] Dr Renee White: And this is something that we [00:05:00] really focus on here at Fill Your Cup at our doula village, I have curated this particular menu that we support our mums through. And the whole premise behind it is that there is some serious [00:05:15] intention behind it. There's intention, as a biochemist, I have paired specific ingredients with one another to almost get like that kind of synergistic effect you want.

[00:05:26] Dr Renee White: You know, the sum of the parts to be more than the whole, [00:05:30] that that is what we want. You know, we are pairing high iron and high vitamin C, so there's better absorption. And so, you know, our chat today is definitely talking about what are the foods that, you know, we can start [00:05:45] integrating into pregnancy and postpartum to kind of shift, you know, the.

[00:05:54] Dr Renee White: The needle when it comes to postpartum depression. The statistics here in Australia [00:06:00] are alarming. It is, you know, just insane the amount of people that are diagnosed with postpartum depression and that's diagnosed like goodness knows how many people go [00:06:15] undiagnosed. I think at the moment the official thing is one in five, I would say.

[00:06:20] Dr Renee White: Honestly at the cold face, it's probably closer to one in two, one in three, to be honest. But this is a fascinating discussion about different [00:06:30] foods, probiotics, prebiotics, microbiomes. I know that you are going to get so much out of this. I'm gonna stop waffling. I'm gonna let you hear from Megan Hockey.[00:06:45]

[00:06:46] Dr Renee White: Hello and welcome to the podcast Megan Hockey. How are you?

[00:06:50] Meghan Hockey: I'm good, thank you. And thank you for having me on. I've been really looking forward to our chat today.

[00:06:55] Dr Renee White: Oh, I have too, because this is an area that we have not really [00:07:00] dived quite deep in. We talk, I think we talk about it in the background a lot in our doula village around, you know.

[00:07:07] Dr Renee White: Food and mental health and things like that because at fill your cup, we really pride ourselves and, and our [00:07:15] menu, like it's all like, it's very, I guess, specific around pregnancy and postpartum and everything's very intentional, so I feel like our worlds were inevitably going to collide. Given your background for all those playing at home, [00:07:30] can you just give us a snapshot?

[00:07:32] Dr Renee White: Of what your background is, who you are, and a little bit more about yourself.

[00:07:35] Meghan Hockey: Yeah, sure. So I am, um, by background, I'm an accredited practicing dietician that specialises in the area of nutritional psychiatry. So that type, uh, the really the field of [00:07:45] research that looks at the intersection between what we eat and how we think and feel.

[00:07:49] Meghan Hockey: So nutrition and mental health. And I completed my PhD in this area a few years ago now, and then after having my second little one, so I've got two little boys at home. I've got a 3-year-old and a [00:08:00] 1-year-old after having my, um, little one and just after my own postpartum journey, I became a lot more interested in this intersection in terms of the postpartum mental health side of things that we always know that nutrition over the last 10 years has been [00:08:15] this really rapidly emerging area of research that's looked at, um, nutritional psychiatry, particularly in adults A lot of the research is in, but I think more and more now, um, over the last couple of years, it's been a bit more interest in postpartum mental health, particularly with the high rate.

[00:08:29] Meghan Hockey: [00:08:30] I guess I imagine that you are well aware of the one in five mothers that experience some sort of common mental disorder, like anxiety or depression over that perinatal period. So I think from my own experience in my own postpartum journey, I naturally thought there's so much research [00:08:45] going on in terms of nutrition and mental health, but how does that apply now to the postpartum period?

[00:08:49] Dr Renee White: Mm.

[00:08:50] Meghan Hockey: So I work a lot in research, um, and doing some research in the area of nutrition and mental health, but in my own private practice. So I run an online clinic all through telehealth that looks [00:09:00] at nutrition and mental health, and supporting those with postpartum mood disorders as well.

[00:09:04] Dr Renee White: Wow. I, I'm, I'm so fascinated by this concept because I think, you know, there's a lot of conjecture out there, and I see it in our industry.

[00:09:14] Dr Renee White: [00:09:15] It's, it's almost like that chicken and egg thing where people, like, we see another new drug that has been formulated to help postpartum depression and our anxiety. But then I love this angle of like, okay, hold on a minute. Let's go back to grassroots and let's think [00:09:30] about what is. What? What's food doing for us?

[00:09:33] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Because we know that it's so important. So, as you kind of said, you know, your research is focusing on nutritional, um, psychiatry. I, I'm always fascinated [00:09:45] by the gut brain connection through all of this. Could you explain how this science specifically relates to postpartum depression and anxiety and I guess what makes the postpartum period [00:10:00] unique from a nutritional psychiatry perspective?

[00:10:03] Meghan Hockey: Yeah, so I guess we have this, um, I'm not sure if your audience is aware of it, the gut brain connection. So it's this bidirectional communication between our gut and our brain. I like to think of it as a highway in that there's [00:10:15] signals going up and down all the time, and that's often directly through a nerve called our vagus nerve.

[00:10:19] Meghan Hockey: But it can also occur indirectly through other peripheral pathways. So things like our immune system, inflammatory markers, and so forth. And a lot of this is being driven by our gut [00:10:30] microbiome, which is the bacteria, the true tru, the bacteria really that reside within our gut and particularly large intestine.

[00:10:37] Meghan Hockey: And they do all these types of wonderful things for us, and they can help with neurotransmitter production, which is our brain chemical. So you [00:10:45] often hear of your serotonin, your dopamine, and things like that. They can influence immune pathways, so contribute or they believe that it may have a role in, um, inflammation and so forth, and also in influencing our stress response system as well.

[00:10:59] Meghan Hockey: [00:11:00] So what's interesting about postpartum depression is that studies have seen that those who have postpartum depression have a different. Gut microbiome composition to those without postpartum depression. And this is seen also in adults with and without clinical [00:11:15] depression. So it's not something new per se, but it's just more recently with emerging research that we are beginning to understand that, um, the patterns that we're seeing, I guess, in um, other types of depression are also prevalent in postpartum depression as well.

[00:11:28] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:28] Meghan Hockey: And I think perhaps the most [00:11:30] exciting area of this for me is that where while our microbiome changes naturally throughout the course of pregnancy due to number of factors like hormones and things like that, we are actually able to change our gut microbiome. Things like stress, physical activity, medications, they can all impact it, but [00:11:45] we act.

[00:11:45] Meghan Hockey: Through diet alone and changing what we eat, we can see that we are able to manipulate and make changes to these types of bacteria. So our gut microbiome in particular really likes feeding of high fibre, prebiotic rich plant foods. So you're [00:12:00] probably hear me chatting about a lot of these foods today because it's something that can help promote the growth of beneficial gut bacteria.

[00:12:06] Meghan Hockey: And it's through this, there's a number of pathways with postpartum depression alone. We're not exactly sure what causes it. It's really, really complex. And the same goes for why nutrition [00:12:15] may be linked to postpartum depression. We're not exactly sure, but it could be potentially through the gut microbiome and these types of pathways that we're be able to see a link as well.

[00:12:24] Dr Renee White: Right. I'm always curious to know like because we come from a perspective [00:12:30] of, you know, prevention is better than treatment.

[00:12:32] Meghan Hockey: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:12:33] Dr Renee White: Are there certain steps that people could take during pregnancy to and you know, we're not saying like one for one, like, you know.

[00:12:42] Meghan Hockey: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:42] Dr Renee White: Eat bread, don't get depression, you know?

[00:12:44] Meghan Hockey: Yeah.

[00:12:44] Dr Renee White: We're not saying [00:12:45] that at all. So cool your gates, everyone. If we had the silver bullet, we would be like s billionaires, wouldn't we?

[00:12:53] Meghan Hockey: Absolutely.

[00:12:54] Dr Renee White: But are there certain food groups that we should or should not [00:13:00] be integrating into our diet during pregnancy to perhaps reduce the risk of, I'm gonna say someone who maybe doesn't have a preexisting mental health challenge.

[00:13:12] Dr Renee White: And then there was people like myself who was [00:13:15] already an anxious person had no idea that like, you know, I was predestined for a high risk kind of postpartum anxiety. Are there are, are they the same kind of foods that you would recommend for people like [00:13:30] myself who were perhaps at a high risk or are we talking about two different, two different ballparks there.

[00:13:35] Meghan Hockey: Yeah. So I think there's a couple of angles to that question itself. I guess what I wanna preface with everything is that nutrition alone is not a cure or replacement.

[00:13:43] Dr Renee White: Yes.

[00:13:43] Meghan Hockey: For conventional treatments.

[00:13:44] Dr Renee White: Yes.

[00:13:44] Meghan Hockey: So [00:13:45] that is not at all what we're stating here in that in terms of, um, pharmac care therapy and medications, nutrition does not replace, it's not a cure.

[00:13:52] Meghan Hockey: In the studies that we've run and that we see out there, they're always used as an adjunct treatment as well. So it's always to be used alongside. And [00:14:00] I guess also because I think there's so much stress. And it's so difficult to eat. Wow. When we're pregnant, there's, there's all these factors.

[00:14:07] Dr Renee White: I tended into a potato gem, like in that first trimester I was like, oh, gimme all the potato and salt in the world.

[00:14:13] Meghan Hockey: Yeah. White foods, that's all I [00:14:15] could stomach. So I think it's important to say is, well that what we eat doesn't cause a mental illness.

[00:14:20] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:14:20] Meghan Hockey: It's just what we are seeing from the research. Is it. It may be one modifiable risk factor.

[00:14:25] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:14:25] Meghan Hockey: That we A, are able to control and perhaps change.

[00:14:29] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:29] Meghan Hockey: [00:14:30] Which I think is really empowering for people to know as well, because that there's so many things with mental illness or mental disorders that we're not able to change.

[00:14:37] Meghan Hockey: So I would hate to add that pressure to women as well.

[00:14:40] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:40] Meghan Hockey: That to think that. This what you eat is going to cause or prevent [00:14:45] or entirely treat mental disorder. That's not what we have right now in terms of the evidence.

[00:14:48] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:14:49] Meghan Hockey: But there appears that there may be a link between nutrition and mental health in the postpartum period in terms of what to eat.

[00:14:55] Meghan Hockey: It's uh, there's no real magic bullet, silver bullet. Like you said, we'd probably already be doing it [00:15:00] all if there was that available. I guess it's what we see. It comes down to overall dietary patterns rather than one single food alone.

[00:15:07] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:07] Meghan Hockey: It's that totality of our diet.

[00:15:09] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:15:09] Meghan Hockey: And that. Seems to make the biggest difference overall.

[00:15:13] Meghan Hockey: We do have a lots of evidence in [00:15:15] adults in terms of clinical depression, things like that. The evidence base, when it comes down to postpartum depression, it's still relatively small and emerging, so I'd hate to overextend the evidence, but what we're seeing. Is that healthier dietary patterns. So those made up with your plant rich fibre [00:15:30] foods, like your whole range of fruits and your vegetables, your lean proteins, like your eggs, your tofu, lean red meats.

[00:15:37] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:37] Meghan Hockey: Fish and seafood in particular as well. They're really rich in Omega-3. And there's some really interesting studies around omega threes and fish intake around that [00:15:45] postpartum period as well, which we can jump into more as well. But they seem to be really beneficial at the same time, beans and lentils, which are really rich in fibre, prebiotic fibre in particular, to help promote that growth of the beneficial gut bacteria.

[00:15:58] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:58] Meghan Hockey: As well. So they all seem [00:16:00] to, as part of a well-balanced diet of pattern, these are the foods that tend to come up a lot of the time. And we see that as well in other studies in outside of postpartum period. So it's not like there's a completely new different diet for mental health.

[00:16:13] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:16:13] Meghan Hockey: Uh, that you should be following, like [00:16:15] these are foods you see commonly in dietary guidelines, so there's no new, I suppose, fancy foods or things like that.

[00:16:21] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:16:21] Meghan Hockey: It's just, I guess about promoting that not only do we know these are good for our physical health. But they do seem to have an apparent link as well with our brain and [00:16:30] our mental health too.

[00:16:31] Dr Renee White: I wonder, is there, because you know, we hear a lot about prebiotics and probiotics.

[00:16:37] Meghan Hockey: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:38] Dr Renee White: Obviously they can correct me if I'm wrong, adjust, you know, our microbiome, um

[00:16:44] Meghan Hockey: mm-hmm.[00:16:45]

[00:16:45] Dr Renee White: In our gut. Has there been any research around that? Because. So the, the other thing I wanna preface by saying this, this is my molecular biology and biochemistry, you know, hat on everyone?

[00:16:58] Meghan Hockey: Yeah.

[00:16:58] Dr Renee White: Is that I feel like [00:17:00] where people go, oh, I just need to go get a probiotic. And, and what they don't understand is that you can step into a pharmacy, but like probiotic is kind of like the umbrella and there's like a million squillion, different [00:17:15] strains of,

[00:17:16] Meghan Hockey: yeah.

[00:17:16] Dr Renee White: Probiotic and each strain is going to be unique for doing something very different. And one strain over here might be amazing for someone to, you know, let's say, you know, I don't know. [00:17:30] There's a strain out there that's really good for coughs and colds for kids in childcare. There was research around that.

[00:17:35] Meghan Hockey: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:35] Dr Renee White: But that one strain's probably not gonna be good for, for example, Kiara Probiotics, which has got an amazing. You know, treatment prevention [00:17:45] against mastitis. So with all of that knowledge, is there anything out there that we know about in terms of pro or prebiotics and its connection with, you know mental health challenges, particularly in [00:18:00] the postpartum?

[00:18:01] Meghan Hockey: Yeah. There have been a couple of studies that have looked at specific strains of probiotics, um, and they've been randomised controlled trials, so quite high level studies. What they've found though, both studies, they've looked at different strains of probiotics.

[00:18:12] Meghan Hockey: So like you said, it's not like. That [00:18:15] there's real, sorry, can I start that again? Yeah, go for it. I just went. Woo. So when it comes to probiotics, there's a couple of studies, randomised control trials that have looked at the effect on depressive symptoms. Um, both of these studies have looked at particular strains, [00:18:30] so they have come to the collision ones.

[00:18:32] Meghan Hockey: So you found that they may have a beneficial effect on depressive symptoms and the other didn't find the same iron. So I guess what we don't know just yet, it's really a rapidly rolling air of research, is that we need to [00:18:45] identify the particular strain that's consistent across all studies. We also have the issues with doses as dosages as well.

[00:18:51] Meghan Hockey: So what's the right dosage? Like you said, prebiotics. They're really interesting field, I think, because they're the types of fibres that the beneficial bacteria grow on.

[00:18:59] Dr Renee White: [00:19:00] Mm-hmm.

[00:19:00] Meghan Hockey: So whether down the track we might look at having a probiotic and then having prebiotics to help keep bacteria growing and so that it flourishes a lot more.

[00:19:08] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:09] Meghan Hockey: So that. Because the probiotics, they can be quite transit, so you need to take them consistently to get the [00:19:15] benefits as well, so they can go into large intestine and then if you stop taking them, whether or not that that bacteria still lives in a large intestine, we're not exactly clear. So I think coming back to dr, they can be quite expensive probiotics as well.

[00:19:28] Meghan Hockey: So there's a lot of pros and cons [00:19:30] that we need to weigh up when it comes to these types of supplements as well. And I think at the moment, the evidence isn't exactly clear on one specific strain or dosage that we can take to help with postpartum depression. The theory is there, I guess, that it's helping with this [00:19:45] gut brain connection, but at this particular point in time, there's no one particular strain that seems to be superior or enough evidence behind that, that would suggest that it can help with the treatment.

[00:19:55] Dr Renee White: Yeah, that's a great point. I love the fact that you've touched on dosage cause I think [00:20:00] that's another unknown fact. I mean, we see it in, for example, with collagen supplements. You know, like depending on what effect you wanna have, you know, do you wanna just have, you know, harder nails and great hair, or do you wanna have [00:20:15] muscle building or, you know, collagen kind of repair and things like that.

[00:20:18] Dr Renee White: It's another thing that people, I think, really need to be aware of the fact that they, you know, they're grabbing a bottle off the shelf, but what is the dosage that you require in order [00:20:30] to have that biological effect on the person?

[00:20:33] Meghan Hockey: Exactly. Yeah. And I often think your money may be just be to be spent investing in whole foods that are rich in these fibres, your prebiotic fibres, like your, your beans, lentils, even including, we don't have a whole lot of [00:20:45] evidence around fermented foods yet, but they're traditionally being consumed as part of traditional diet cultures for many, many years. So these are the foods like your sauerkraut, your king cheese, your other fermented foods, like a sourdough and so forth. I think your money is probably better spent [00:21:00] investing in these whole foods and getting the foundations right first before going down the line and considering a supplement like a probiotic.

[00:21:06] Dr Renee White: Yeah, and let's be honest, sauerkraut and sourdough is like totally delicious.

[00:21:11] Meghan Hockey: Absolutely. As well. You also get the taste benefits. Yeah. [00:21:15]

[00:21:15] Dr Renee White: You get a much fuller tummy and it's so good and throw some eggs in there, like we're totally, it's, it's all happening.

[00:21:22] Meghan Hockey: Yeah.

[00:21:23] Dr Renee White: I'd love to know, obviously you've been in research for quite some time.

[00:21:27] Dr Renee White: You've got, you know, over 20 peer [00:21:30] reviewed papers in your field, is there anything that you've kind of come across where you are like, this is such a surprising kind of discovery. I mean, we've talked about the fact that I, I feel like this [00:21:45] area, anything to do with microbiome, I feel like we're at the, you know, just the tip of the iceberg.

[00:21:51] Dr Renee White: There's so much to come, but is there anything that has really got like shaken up the field where [00:22:00] maybe everyone thought that this was the dogma and then actually no this is different. Or is this any other emerging research coming through that you could share with the listeners?

[00:22:09] Meghan Hockey: Sure. I guess when we are thinking about postpartum nutrition, a lot of the evidence based lies in [00:22:15] observational research. So this is the where we're seeing a link, so we can't actually say, but there's no clinical trials as yet in the postpartum depression space. So we're not actually able to say that by changing your diet, you're actually able to improve depressive symptoms or [00:22:30] actually be used as a treatment for postpartum depression in this area.

[00:22:34] Meghan Hockey: In other studies in adults, we have these clinical trials that have looked at particularly a Mediterranean diet pattern, and they've seen that for those who have adopted a Mediterranean diet pattern and alongside conventional treatments, like I said, [00:22:45] again when taking medications and psychotherapy, that they've been able to successfully improve their depressive symptoms.

[00:22:51] Meghan Hockey: And I think a really key, important finding out of this is that these changes occur independent of weight loss. So a lot of people may think, oh, you're eating better, you're losing weight. [00:23:00] That's why you are seeing these benefits for your mental health. But it's actually not the case in that, um, as part of these studies, dietary improvement changes were seen.

[00:23:09] Meghan Hockey: And improvements to depressive symptoms even when people didn't lose weight. So I think that's a really important message because people naturally hear the word [00:23:15] diet.

[00:23:15] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:23:15] Meghan Hockey: And they think, okay, restriction, let's lose weight.

[00:23:18] Dr Renee White: Yes.

[00:23:18] Meghan Hockey: And they think this is just going to be another thing that you're jumping on the hamster wheel and um, I guess going down that diet cycle.

[00:23:24] Meghan Hockey: But this is not what we're talking about here. A lot of their research is suggesting, um, promoting [00:23:30] diversity. So thinking about how you can add more foods to your plate to maximise the different types of plant fibres that you get to help nourish your gut microbiome, essentially. That's what we're thinking.

[00:23:39] Meghan Hockey: And I guess another really key factor is that it doesn't need to be perfect as well. So we've seen from these clinical trials in [00:23:45] adults, so again, not in the postpartum nutrition space, in depression space because we don't have these studies in this population yet, but that even small changes. We're able to, well correlated with improvements in depressive symptoms.

[00:23:57] Meghan Hockey: So your diet doesn't need to be perfect. Just start by making [00:24:00] small, simple changes, building up from there, and then it makes it a lot more approachable for people as well, rather than having that all or nothing mindset. I think that's really powerful to know too, in that even small, gradual changes, maybe linked to an improvement in symptoms rather than, yeah, have [00:24:15] this all or nothing.

[00:24:15] Dr Renee White: Yeah. That was actually gonna be one of my questions because I, I mean, we've touched on it already, the fact that that first trimester is an absolute bloody killer. Like, I don't know what your pregnancy was like, but I was dead at the end of the day. Like, I remember just [00:24:30] like I to catch the train home from work and I remember just, you know, crossing that damn bridge on Southbank and I was just like, just one foot in front of the other, one foot in front of the, and I remember just, I would walk into my apartment, would [00:24:45] literally just like strip my clothes off.

[00:24:47] Dr Renee White: This is so TMI just strip because I had to wear, I was working at a law firm, so I had like this suit strip off my like. I didn't even go to the bedroom. I had a sleeping bag permanently on the couch and I would crawl into it and I would [00:25:00] sleep for like two hours and I would wake up and, you know, typically my husband would've made dinner by then.

[00:25:07] Dr Renee White: How the hell do we, you know, how do we integrate this? What's your advice? And like [00:25:15] maybe through pregnancy, but mostly through postpartum cause that's even like a crazier days of like sleep exhaustion. Mm-hmm. You know, it's really demanding those early weeks. How, how could mums really start to, you know, have [00:25:30] some practical recommendations for supporting their mental health through food.

[00:25:34] Meghan Hockey: Yeah, I think make it easier on yourself. I think it comes down to that managing expectations as well of what we're going to be able to achieve here. So like I said as well, nutrition's not gonna be a [00:25:45] cure all, for mental illnesses as well. It's something that might be useful, just a tool, um, in your mental health toolkit essentially.

[00:25:52] Meghan Hockey: But taking the pressure off, if dinner for you. The best you can manage tonight is baked beans on toast. Then how can you look at approaching that? [00:26:00] Maybe to increase the fibre, say swapping out from a white bread to a multi-grain bread and or an egg on toast? It's a perfectly acceptable dinner. I think a lot of the time we put so much pressure on ourselves as mum and as women, to make everything the best it possibly can be, but to make it sustainable [00:26:15] and for long term, we need to do things that it make the easiest.

[00:26:18] Meghan Hockey: The healthier choice, the easier choice essentially. So even if that's something like cooking once and eating twice, preparing a bigger batch of meals, freezing something for leftovers as well. Relying on [00:26:30] frozen vegetables and things like that. So stock in the pantry. We have really good research to show that frozen vegetables and things like that. They're not nutritionally inferior. They are really high in quality as well. So grabbing out a packet of steamed veggies that you can throw in the microwave and add it to whatever you're eating [00:26:45] for dinner tonight. So something that's really small and manageable as well.

[00:26:49] Meghan Hockey: Just to, um, take the pressure off.

[00:26:51] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:26:51] Meghan Hockey: I guess at the end of the day, because I've been there as well and sometimes I just can't even imagine while I have a toddler running around or, uh, another little one in [00:27:00] my arm and trying to eat at the same time I get how overwhelming that it can be. So accepting help I think is a big one as well, from friends and family.

[00:27:09] Meghan Hockey: And even if you have meals in the fridge, put them in the freezer. So trying to walk with plan as [00:27:15] hard as it can be to have something there, because I think when your environment is structured around you that you have. Something ready on hand as well. It makes it a lot easier.

[00:27:25] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:25] Meghan Hockey: So even like having a, um, a jar nuts next to your kettle and the next [00:27:30] time that you're making a cup of tea, it just prompts you to think, oh, I might grab a handful.

[00:27:33] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:27:33] Meghan Hockey: Of nuts there as well.

[00:27:35] Dr Renee White: Yeah,

[00:27:35] Meghan Hockey: so just those really, the environmental cues and things like that as well, it can just prompt. And helped us because in the messiness of it, we we're not thinking of ourselves a lot of the [00:27:45] time.

[00:27:45] Dr Renee White: Absolutely not.

[00:27:45] Meghan Hockey: Sometimes we just need those reminders. I think.

[00:27:47] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:27:48] Meghan Hockey: That Hey, this. Yeah.

[00:27:50] Dr Renee White: And also like how, how often do we make these like. Beautiful, healthy, gorgeous snack plates for our kids. Like my, my child is a [00:28:00] definitely don't let anything touch one another on the plate kind of gal.

[00:28:03] Meghan Hockey: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:04] Dr Renee White: And we have, like, I, I had just been whipping out picnic plates for seven and a half years.

[00:28:11] Dr Renee White: Well, you know, seven years. When was she eating solids? I don't know. But [00:28:15] I've now got to the point where I'm like, I'm getting two plates out and I'm making a picnic plate for myself as well. Like, because otherwise just I would make this picnic plate. I would take it out to her and she'd be like, I don't know, doing her drawing or coloring or whatever.

[00:28:28] Dr Renee White: And I'd walk back into the kitchen and be like. [00:28:30] Yeah. So, uh, I think I'll just have a cup of tea and I'm starving, you know?

[00:28:36] Meghan Hockey: Yes. Yeah.

[00:28:37] Dr Renee White: Am I, I don't think I'm alone. What, what works in your house? I would love to know what your go-to meals or, or,

[00:28:44] Meghan Hockey: oh [00:28:45] gosh. I am guilty of surviving off the toast crust as well, but you know what, I find what really helps me setting me up for the week is meal planning to set in some time aside, not strict, but just writing down like a list of foods that I can prepare and buy the [00:29:00] groceries for so that even if I wanted to make a quick dinner, I have everything there right on hand.

[00:29:03] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:29:04] Meghan Hockey: Because if there's nothing to cook within the house, I'm obviously defaulting to whatever is there.

[00:29:09] Meghan Hockey: Um, and it could be just a toast for dinner, which is absolutely fine if that's what the night is for you.

[00:29:13] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:29:13] Meghan Hockey: I think again, we [00:29:15] don't need this all or nothing approach. If that's the best that you can manage. The kids are fed or fed happy days.

[00:29:20] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:29:21] Meghan Hockey: Um, but I think meal planning is one strategy I use a lot.

[00:29:24] Meghan Hockey: Another thing I keep a, um, a list of quick, healthy, or like well [00:29:30] balanced meals, I guess in my phone that I can default to cause sometimes I can't be bothered thinking about what to cook. I've got my

[00:29:35] Dr Renee White: decision fatigue as well right.

[00:29:37] Meghan Hockey: Yep. Absolutely. So having recipes that you can make without that doesn't require a lot of thinking. So go into autopilot [00:29:45] mode.

[00:29:45] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:45] Meghan Hockey: So for us, that might be like a, a baked pumpkin dahl that is literally just pop it in the oven. It's packed full of lentils, probiotic fibre.

[00:29:53] Dr Renee White: sounds so good

[00:29:54] Meghan Hockey: You've got your folate, yeah. And it's so easy as well. Or we often do just like a [00:30:00] one pot curry, things like that. You pop your noodles in, your cut up veggies and it cooks in 10 minutes.

[00:30:04] Meghan Hockey: So just simple, really quick and easy meals that everyone, I mean, my toddlers a fussy eater, so I get that comes into things as well a lot the time. Mm-hmm. But trying to make family friendly meals that we can [00:30:15] all enjoy so you're not off making a million different food.

[00:30:18] Dr Renee White: Oh my gosh.

[00:30:18] Meghan Hockey: And things like that for everyone as well.

[00:30:20] Dr Renee White: Ain't nobody got time for that.

[00:30:22] Meghan Hockey: No, I know.

[00:30:24] Dr Renee White: I'm gonna have to send you some of our dahl I want you to try and do

[00:30:27] Meghan Hockey: Yeah,

[00:30:28] Dr Renee White: that's our dahl in the background there for all those [00:30:30] playing at home.

[00:30:30] Meghan Hockey: Oh, yes. Beautiful.

[00:30:31] Dr Renee White: Um, I would love to, I would love to know if you could road test that with your, with your pumpkin, your baked pumpkin dahl that sounds interesting.

[00:30:37] Meghan Hockey: Yeah, I would love to give it a go. That sounds delightful.

[00:30:40] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Uh, I look, I'm the same. I don't meal prep, like I [00:30:45] see those crazy reels where people like. Here's what I got done in two hours on Sunday. I'm like, for the love of God, that took you much longer than two hours. Yeah, because I think it's a mental load of like, you had to look at the recipe, you had to get [00:31:00] ingredients, you had to do the shop.

[00:31:01] Dr Renee White: I'm like, you did not do that in two hours. But you know, let's all play that game, shall we? But I love the concept and I have been doing this religiously. I had justine from Master Chef on the podcast with her new cookbook, and she [00:31:15] had the same philosophy, which is, you know, cook once and eat twice.

[00:31:19] Meghan Hockey: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:19] Dr Renee White: And that is now what I'm doing. I'm like, if I'm chopping one carrot, we're gonna do three. You know, if I'm chopping one onion, God help me cause I cry with them. I'm doing two and I'm [00:31:30] making like, I think I made like five liters of spaghetti bolognese sauce the other day. But I'm like, you know what, I'm gonna freeze it and I'm gonna thank myself later for it because that's how I roll.

[00:31:40] Meghan Hockey: And you don't always need to have it with pasta as well, there's so many different ways you can have it with a baked potato, you can pop it in [00:31:45] a wrap with and make like a burrito and things like that. So

[00:31:47] Dr Renee White: yeah, I've been, I've made nachos girl. Anything like, I'm like totally down with,

[00:31:51] Meghan Hockey: yeah, that's the jackpot there.

[00:31:53] Dr Renee White: Yes. I'm like, yes. I, I'm, I have, um, become a bit of a nacho [00:32:00] chip snob, I have to say.

[00:32:02] Meghan Hockey: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:02] Dr Renee White: I am a sucker for the mission. The round mission chips.

[00:32:07] Meghan Hockey: Yep.

[00:32:07] Dr Renee White: Oh my God. Those with like a pull chicken or a spaghetti bolognese sauce with some cheese and avocado. [00:32:15] I'm done. Thank you very much. Yeah, that's Friday night.

[00:32:16] Meghan Hockey: It's making me hungry now. Just thinking whens lunch.

[00:32:21] Dr Renee White: I know, right? And, and so I, I guess we've touched on the fact that, you know. Those are some of the [00:32:30] recipes and things that mums can do to incorporate that and your own kind of personal experience. Was it, I'm just trying to recall. Was it chicken or the egg?

[00:32:40] Dr Renee White: Did you do this study before you became a mum at all?

[00:32:44] Meghan Hockey: So, [00:32:45] yeah, so I was working in the field of nutrition and mental health in the nutritional psychiatry space before I had kids.

[00:32:52] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:32:52] Meghan Hockey: But I think understanding now going through postpartum, the unique challenges that come with that.

[00:32:58] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:32:58] Meghan Hockey: And also, yes, it prompted [00:33:00] my interest more and more in this area, so.

[00:33:02] Dr Renee White: Gotcha.

[00:33:02] Meghan Hockey: I'm looking at the next couple of years are going to be really exciting, I think. More clinical trials will come out around this space. There's a couple underway now, so that way our understanding is really going to grow because at the moment we're really limited to [00:33:15] observational evidence.

[00:33:15] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:33:15] Meghan Hockey: Then there's, there's a number of studies in that space that are showing that this is a link between healthy dietary patterns or those who adopt a healthier dietary pattern during pregnancy. That seems to be a lowered risk of postpartum depression. [00:33:30] Mm-hmm. But whether we're actually to know whether it's going to be useful for those as an treatment approach and things like that, it's not exactly clear from other clinical trials in adults.

[00:33:40] Meghan Hockey: We've seen that it is any, in fact, in the, um, clinical practice guidelines now in [00:33:45] Australia. Diet alongside other lifestyle factors like physical activity, sleep, and stress management. They're actually recommended as first line foundational, um, approaches for management of mood disorders. So some really good evidence in that [00:34:00] space.

[00:34:00] Dr Renee White: Mm. Um.

[00:34:01] Meghan Hockey: We know that postpartum depression is quite unique, so whether or not the same applies for that specific population still remains a little bit unclear, but I think still what we're recommending, it's good for postpartum physical recovery, [00:34:15] postpartum health overall. So what we know is good for mental health seems to be good for physical health too.

[00:34:20] Meghan Hockey: So even without those clinical trial evidence there adopting these types of foods and these healthier dietary pattern is, yeah, it's still going to [00:34:30] have all around health benefits, I imagine.

[00:34:31] Dr Renee White: Yeah, absolutely. Nothing, nothing wrong with it there.

[00:34:34] Meghan Hockey: No.

[00:34:35] Dr Renee White: Before we dive into our rapid fire, was there anything else that you wanted to add?

[00:34:40] Dr Renee White: Any like myths or misconceptions that you have [00:34:45] seen like in your clinic and you know, in your practice where you're just like. That's a hard no. Like where did you hear that?

[00:34:53] Meghan Hockey: Yeah. I think I see some weird and wacky supplements that pop up a lot of the time as well, that people will tend [00:35:00] to think that there's some good science around.

[00:35:02] Meghan Hockey: But I guess when it comes down to supplements in this space. The one that probably has the most evidence is Omega-3 supplementation or fish oil. Yeah. So there's a few randomised controlled trials in that area that suggests that they may be [00:35:15] useful in having a role in reducing depressive symptoms. But again, they're not for everyone.

[00:35:19] Meghan Hockey: We know that, um, omega threes, particularly for those who are on blood thinners and things like that, they're not, uh, they're not advisable. So working with a health practitioner is really important [00:35:30] before commencing any supplements. Often as well, like to take a food first approach. So if you are not already having fish, maybe think about that's for you, increasing your fish intake through low mercury options if you're breastfeeding, for example, before commencing a [00:35:45] supplement.

[00:35:45] Meghan Hockey: But I guess, yeah, I see some things that are probably out there not as evidence-based, so I always tend to go back. So what is the evidence showing and things like that before recommending anything.

[00:35:55] Dr Renee White: Absolutely. I have two questions on that.

[00:35:57] Meghan Hockey: Yeah.

[00:35:57] Dr Renee White: First one is what are, yeah. What are [00:36:00] some low mercury fish examples?

[00:36:03] Meghan Hockey: Yeah, that, yeah, so a high Omega-3 low mercury fish option will be things like your mackerel, your salmon, and your tuna tend to pop up a lot.

[00:36:11] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:36:11] Meghan Hockey: They're probably the ones that people are most likely to [00:36:15] include as well. I mean, I'm happy

[00:36:16] Dr Renee White: Are sardines in that, in that category in there as well? Yeah, I totally got into those.

[00:36:21] Meghan Hockey: Yeah, I know. And I think it's just about knowing how to incorporate those once you've got your recipes and things like that. Because obviously at first if it's not something you [00:36:30] normally eat,

[00:36:30] Dr Renee White: yeah.

[00:36:30] Meghan Hockey: It can be a little bit tricky to get over the quite acquired fishy taste.

[00:36:33] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:36:33] Meghan Hockey: But yeah, there's some really beautiful recipes out there with sardines, tomato sauce, crusty bread. How do you normally eat?

[00:36:39] Dr Renee White: That's exactly how I eat them.

[00:36:41] Meghan Hockey: Yeah, I know. It's like, yeah,

[00:36:43] Dr Renee White: I, I was at a, like, I was at this [00:36:45] cute cafe here in Tassie the other month with a friend and I, I had already had eggs in the morning and we were kind of like, it wasn't lunch, it wasn't brunch or I just didn't know what I felt like.

[00:36:55] Dr Renee White: And then I saw sardines on toast with a, you know, beautiful [00:37:00] citrus salad on the side, and I thought. Yeah, I think I, I think I'm gonna have that. And then as soon as I had it, I've like went to, you know, my local grocer and I got some really good, and that's the other thing, I think you really need to get good quality

[00:37:13] Meghan Hockey: Yes.

[00:37:14] Dr Renee White: Stuff [00:37:15] like

[00:37:15] Meghan Hockey: mm-hmm.

[00:37:15] Dr Renee White: I know it sounds a bit bougie sometimes. Yeah. But it just makes such a difference. Like I don't eat tuna. The tuna for me is, is a no go. I've had,

[00:37:25] Meghan Hockey: mm-hmm.

[00:37:26] Dr Renee White: No, this sounds, but I've had cats since I was very little and I just [00:37:30] equate tuna to cat food and my brain can't get over it. Sardines, and I'm all in, so,

[00:37:36] Meghan Hockey: yeah.

[00:37:37] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Totally in

[00:37:38] Meghan Hockey: and whatever works for you. Yeah, I think as well, I think you need to find something that's within, and if you don't like fish as well, there's [00:37:45] always omega 3, rich nuts and seed options like your walnuts, your chia seed, your blackberry and things like that.

[00:37:49] Dr Renee White: Yes,

[00:37:50] Meghan Hockey: they're not as absorbable, I guess, as your fish and your seafood options, but again, it's just finding what works for you as well, because fish isn't everyone's cup of tea, so

[00:37:58] Dr Renee White: No.

[00:37:59] Meghan Hockey: [00:38:00] Yep.

[00:38:00] Dr Renee White: And my, my second question is. With the Omega-3 supplements.

[00:38:05] Meghan Hockey: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:05] Dr Renee White: My understanding is, again, they're not all created equally. Like are there certain things that people should be looking for with that?

[00:38:14] Meghan Hockey: Yeah. [00:38:15] Um, there definitely there is differences in the quality. So finding, the reputable manufacturer is always key as well and particularly we're seeing from the evidence that those that are higher in EPA to particularly type Omega-3. So EPA predominant formula [00:38:30] tends to be rather than DHA tends to be better for mental health, which is when we're talking about pregnancy, we often talk about DHA.

[00:38:37] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:37] Meghan Hockey: core baby's brain development.

[00:38:39] Dr Renee White: Yes.

[00:38:39] Meghan Hockey: But in terms of the postpartum and mental health and depression side of things, the EPA predominant [00:38:45] formula seems to be what the research is showing that to be a little bit more effective as well. But again, I think these can all be worked through with your health practitioner as well, and I always recommend that people would report back and advice because everyone's needs are quite specific.

[00:38:59] Meghan Hockey: So [00:39:00] talking through that and dosages and so forth with the practitioner would always be recommended for.

[00:39:05] Dr Renee White: Amazing. Anything else to add? We, we will talk about where we can find you and also your clinic at the end, but before the rapid fire, anything else that you wanted to [00:39:15] add along the way?

[00:39:16] Meghan Hockey: Not in particular.

[00:39:17] Meghan Hockey: I think just being kind to yourself as well. I think there's so many mental health challenges in the postpartum period. Anything that's going to add extra stress, I think is, is not something that I'd wanna advocate for. [00:39:30] So finding things that are really workable within where you are in your life stage as well, because nutrition, at the end of the day, it should be enjoyable.

[00:39:37] Meghan Hockey: Finding foods that you really like to enjoy is key. Not using a restrictive approach, finding something that works within you in your daily life, I [00:39:45] think is just a really good and nice way to start. Starting small as well. Again, like I said, it doesn't need to be perfect, even adding a handful of nuts when you're having a cup in the afternoon, rather than trying to overhaul your diet all at once.

[00:39:58] Meghan Hockey: The research doesn't really align with that. It's not [00:40:00] sustainable in the long term as well. So finding, um, and implementing small strategies that you can consistently build up over time. I think is where one of my key takeaways as well and just remembering is again, that mental health, it's so multifaceted.[00:40:15]

[00:40:15] Meghan Hockey: Nutrition's just one small part of this picture, but it is, we eat every day, three times a day, even more. So it's just one

[00:40:21] Dr Renee White: Five times a day.

[00:40:22] Meghan Hockey: Yeah, five times a day. I know for me, I think it's gonna be a five times a day, times a day today. But yeah, it's just one thing to keep in [00:40:30] mind alongside with physical activity, stress.

[00:40:34] Meghan Hockey: Getting enough sleep, um, all these things can help add up and may play a role in our long-term mental health as well.

[00:40:40] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well said. Okay. Alright. We're gonna drive into our rapid fire. [00:40:45] Are you ready, Megan? Yes. Ready? Okay. What is your top tip for mums?

[00:40:52] Meghan Hockey: Ooh, my top tip for mum. That is a tricky one. I,

[00:40:56] Dr Renee White: or maybe a top tip someone just told you and you were like, yeah. [00:41:00]

[00:41:00] Meghan Hockey: Oh gosh. In terms of nutrition or sorry, my

[00:41:02] Dr Renee White: anything could be anything.

[00:41:05] Meghan Hockey: Um, anything. Anything, anything. Anything, anything. Accept help. I think when it comes to that, I'm probably guilty of that a lot of the time.

[00:41:14] Dr Renee White: Oh, yes.

[00:41:14] Meghan Hockey: Whether [00:41:15] that be I from a nutrition front in terms of accepting meals or things like that, because people naturally want to help you and it makes them feel good as well, as well as receiving the help.

[00:41:25] Meghan Hockey: So I, I think, um, accepting help and leaning on your [00:41:30] village is so important as well. So getting out, having a cuppa or a coffee with friends. Connecting over beautiful food. That's one of my favorite ones as well. Um, I find that really important for mental health, but also, yeah, I just really enjoy that side of things.

[00:41:44] Dr Renee White: Love [00:41:45] that love. Do you have like a go-to resource, whether it be a book or a workshop or something like that for, you know, birthing mums? Uh uh, like we've even had guests who've suggested a [00:42:00] poem, like it can be anything. Was there anything that kind of helped you along the way or something that you. I don't know, you might gift a friend.

[00:42:08] Dr Renee White: Um, or let a hundred percent let them know about something if they're pregnant, or a new mum

[00:42:12] Meghan Hockey: if they're pregnant a resource. I [00:42:15] really love podcasts. Not specifically anyone, but I just find helping, hearing others women's experiences are really, really helpful, particularly because it can just change so quickly, the life stage that you are.

[00:42:27] Meghan Hockey: I have friends that are asking me about introducing solids for [00:42:30] their babies. And even though I was there six months ago, I'm like, I don't remember any of that. It just changes so quickly. I was like, I know I linked to that. But I think finding a podcast that's relevant to you where you are in your life phase at that stage, so you're not feeling alone, that you're having someone that you connect to [00:42:45] as well, I find is really helpful.

[00:42:46] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:42:47] Meghan Hockey: For me. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:42:48] Dr Renee White: I, I think there's something really, really, and I don't, I cannot think of another word for it, but special about having another person's voice in your ear.

[00:42:59] Meghan Hockey: Mm-hmm. [00:43:00]

[00:43:00] Dr Renee White: Like I always suggest to clients, you know, have a chat to people who are in your inner circle and let them know that a voice message sometimes is a thousand times better than a text.

[00:43:13] Meghan Hockey: Yeah.

[00:43:13] Dr Renee White: You know, an SMS. [00:43:15] Because there's something about having, it's that it feels like it's, it's the tone, it's the intonation. Maybe you hear their laugh or something like that. I think it hits differently, and I think podcasts do that as well.

[00:43:25] Meghan Hockey: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:25] Dr Renee White: When you get people in your ear and you're just like, oh yeah.

[00:43:28] Dr Renee White: Uh, it's that [00:43:30] familiar voice again.

[00:43:30] Meghan Hockey: Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. Yep. Mm-hmm.

[00:43:33] Dr Renee White: Um, last question. That we always ask our guests. We borrowed this one from Brene Brown, who I absolutely love. I would die if she ever came on this podcast. But anyway, um, Brene, I love [00:43:45] you. What do you keep on your bedside table?

[00:43:48] Meghan Hockey: My bedside table. I have my Kindle. Oh, it's always a non-negotiable.

[00:43:52] Dr Renee White: Now we're talking

[00:43:53] Meghan Hockey: like a good book on the go. Probably a random toddler toy that has made its way up there. I think it's a dinosaur at the [00:44:00] moment.

[00:44:00] Dr Renee White: Yep.

[00:44:00] Meghan Hockey: Currently sitting there and my late grandmother's watch as well, so my jewelry and my watch. I like to keep close by as well. Yeah,

[00:44:09] Dr Renee White: you're a Kindle girl as well.

[00:44:11] Meghan Hockey: Yeah.

[00:44:11] Dr Renee White: Love this. Are you happy to share what your [00:44:15] favorite genre or book is that you're reading? Or like one of your favorite?

[00:44:18] Meghan Hockey: Yeah,

[00:44:19] Dr Renee White: favorites are.

[00:44:20] Meghan Hockey: I am one of those people that I'll get through the first chapter and realize I've read this book before, so I'm not good on a name.

[00:44:27] Meghan Hockey: My most recent, um, read was Blue [00:44:30] Sister, so I quite like a fiction.

[00:44:31] Dr Renee White: Okay. Yeah.

[00:44:32] Meghan Hockey: Um, but also nonfiction. Dr. Billy Garvey's book, the name has escaped me, I think, around mental health for children. You might be able to prompt me with the name on that one. I don't know the name, but I did [00:44:45] read that recently.

[00:44:46] Dr Renee White: I'm, I'm Googling, I'm Googling everyone.

[00:44:47] Meghan Hockey: Yes.

[00:44:49] Dr Renee White: If my keyboard actually wants to work,

[00:44:52] Meghan Hockey: 10 things I wish you knew about your child's mental health.

[00:44:54] Dr Renee White: Yes.

[00:44:55] Meghan Hockey: I highly recommend that as well, has been a great read. So [00:45:00] from being in that mental health space,

[00:45:01] Dr Renee White: has he only got one book? He only got one, one book? Maybe he does. He's fascinating. I, yeah,

[00:45:10] Meghan Hockey: isn't he? Yeah. I love listening. Reading. Yeah. Any of his content.

[00:45:14] Dr Renee White: He's [00:45:15] got like just this beautiful, calming voice, like

[00:45:18] Meghan Hockey: mm-hmm.

[00:45:18] Dr Renee White: I think if I listened to his podcast at night, like, love him, but I think I would, he would send me to sleep cause it's just this calm, just his calm voice. Yeah. Just nice. Thanks [00:45:30] Billy.

[00:45:32] Dr Renee White: Awesome. I love that you're a Kindle girl. I'm a massive Kindle girl too. I just was like, I love the touch and feel of books.

[00:45:40] Meghan Hockey: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:40] Dr Renee White: But in terms of, well, I could, I, I read late at [00:45:45] night and my husband's just like, for the love of God, turn the bedside lamp off, Renee and I'm like, okay, fine. And then I could never find like a little torch thing that actually worked for me.

[00:45:55] Dr Renee White: Like, you know, those little,

[00:45:56] Meghan Hockey: yeah, no, you need the Kindle, the backlight. Yes.

[00:45:59] Dr Renee White: The [00:46:00] backlight. Mm-hmm. And also I'm like. I don't know about you, but I'm on size five at the moment. My eyes, I can, I'm 40 now, so I'm like, can feel they're deteriorating a little bit so I can, you know, I can make the text bigger.

[00:46:14] Meghan Hockey: Yeah. That's all the perks, isn't it?

[00:46:14] Dr Renee White: Yeah. [00:46:15] And if I finish, if I finish book one of something at like 10 o'clock at night. You bet your bottom dollar. I'm buying book two straight away. Yeah. I mean, Kmart, I think we have 1 24 7 Kmart here in Hobart, and I'm [00:46:30] not getting outta my bed for that, so

[00:46:31] Meghan Hockey: No.

[00:46:33] Dr Renee White: Yeah, Kindle all the way.

[00:46:34] Dr Renee White: Megan, it has been amazing to chat with you. Please let the listeners know how we can keep in up to date with all your things and get in contact for those people interested.

[00:46:44] Meghan Hockey: Yeah, sure. [00:46:45] You can find me on Instagram at meg hockey, dietician, and then I also have a web site, Megan hockey do com, which I'm sure you'll be able to copy in the show notes.

[00:46:53] Meghan Hockey: That will be in the show notes, notes for anyone wanting to, um, find out the spelling and things like that. So, as I said, I have an online private [00:47:00] practice there, so you can book in for a consult that way or even just reach out, send me an email first to see if it's right for you and we can have a chat that way.

[00:47:07] Meghan Hockey: But more than happy, if you have any further questions, please reach out. I love connecting with other people. It's a really, it's a relatively new area [00:47:15] of research, like I said, so for anyone else interested in knowing about it, would love to get in touch.

[00:47:20] Dr Renee White: Amazing. Thank you so much for your time. I've learned so much.

[00:47:23] Dr Renee White: I love delving into this. I love, it's almost like where. It's kind of like where East meets West I [00:47:30] find, in terms of medicine. Um.

[00:47:31] Meghan Hockey: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:32] Dr Renee White: And you know, for a long time, because I was a science nerd, I thought very much black and white. I sometimes find that that happens when we do a PhD, because we go so niche.[00:47:45]

[00:47:45] Meghan Hockey: Yeah.

[00:47:45] Dr Renee White: Since becoming a doula, I'm totally understanding that it's not the case at all. Yeah. And that we do need to bring in this kind of, you know, holistic side mm-hmm of medicine, which obviously food was our [00:48:00] first medicine. Right?

[00:48:01] Meghan Hockey: Yep. Mm-hmm.

[00:48:01] Dr Renee White: So we need to start leaning a bit more on that. But thank you so much for your time.

[00:48:05] Dr Renee White: I really appreciate it. No worries. And thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure to chat. Thank you. Alright everyone, until next week. See ya.

[00:48:13] Dr Renee White: If you loved this [00:48:15] episode, please hit the subscribe button and leave a review. If you know someone out there who would also love to listen to this episode, please hit the share button so they can benefit from it as well.

[00:48:28] Dr Renee White: You've just listened to another [00:48:30] episode of The Science of Motherhood proudly presented by Fill Your Cup, Australia's first doula village. Head to our website, I fill your cup.com to learn more about our birth and postpartum doula offerings, [00:48:45] where every mother we pledge to be the steady hand that guides you back to yourself, ensuring you feel nurtured, informed, and empowered, so you can fully embrace the joy of motherhood with confidence.

[00:48:57] Dr Renee White: Until next time. Bye.