Welcome to real life with Mike and Jason, where we look through tough real world issues that impact christians.

I'm Pastor Jason and I'm joined with my host, Pastor Mike.

And this is episode two of season one.

Mike, glad you're here.

I am so glad to be here with you, too.

Thanks for putting this all together, Jason.

Yeah, my pleasure.

Today we're starting with what I think really is an extremely important question that has a direct impact on our role, society.

And it's really something that even can divide christians.

And that question is, should christians vote?

And so this week we're going to be looking at what it means to engage in voting from a biblical perspective.

Should we vote?

Asking questions like, is there a right or wrong way to do it?

What does scripture say about it?

Or does scripture say anything about voting?

And also looking at questions like, what about.

Because I've heard this many, many times, so what about the separation of church and state?

Religion shouldn't be in politics.

Politics shouldn't be in religion.

So we're going to look at that.

And what about navigating the reality of being somebody who maybe lives in a place or a state that doesn't align with what you believe, what you hold is valuable in the voting process or who you think should be elected, then also, the last question we'll look at, too is maybe not lasting today.

But one of them I want to address is what's the cost of not voting?

Is there a cost to not going to the polls, to not voting?

When I was researching today, I was really amazed by a statistic that, that I came across.

I know it's something that you've looked at, too, but it's still really hard for me to wrap my mind around it.

And did you realize that it is estimated in this country, at least, that up to 45 million people who consider themselves, you know, evangelicals don't participate in most elections.

Yeah, no, it's fascinating.

And, you know, I think I read the same statistic as well where it said that there was up to 90 million in our country who would identify as evangelicals.

And then out of that 40, 45,000 or, excuse me, million that don't even vote, and then another one was like 15 million aren't even registered to vote.

And so, man, you think about how many, and we say evangelical, we're talking about somebody who would have, for the most part, say that they're a Christian and have a biblical worldview.

Yeah.

So that's a lot of votes.

And you and I know if just a large percentage of those people voted every election would probably go the way of people who would align themselves by their own profession as biblical candidates, as it were.

Yeah, no, for sure.

And, you know, and that's an important point that I want to, you know, remind our audience of today is that, you know, this is a political topic.

We're talking about politics, but it's not, that's not all this conversation is about.

Really more important than that.

It's about, is this a way for us to live out our faith, you know, in this area of our life for the topic of voting?

And so, you know, again, I understand this topic is something that people don't want to talk about.

It can be divisive for families and for churches and for friends.

But I think it's a critical topic whose results not only impact you and me and our children, but also our work and our schools and our churches, even all the way to the gas pump, to the supermarket, to the cost of things that we buy.

So it impacts really every aspect of american society and not just american society, but society on a world stage as well.

And so when I think about, I was thinking about, well, you know, what, what impact does a president have beyond myself?

So we're voting for like this election coming up.

We're obviously voting for, you know, president, vice president of the United States.

And I know that some people get hung up on the person, right?

So, for instance, this election cycle, we have two choices, right?

We have, and, you know, in some places, obviously you have three.

But really we have two practical choices.

And that's either former President Donald Trump or Vice President Kamala Harris.

And so what do you do then as a Christian if you want to vote?

But, man, maybe you really struggle with, I really like Donald Trump or Kamala Harris or whoever the candidate is that you're looking to vote for.

And I think it's important to point out that we're voting for a lot more than just one person.

So, for instance, for the US presidential elections, when a president is elected, yes, they're elected to the highest office in the country and most arguably the world, but they're also responsible for 4000 or so political appointment positions.

So we think of that term as their administration.

Right?

You know, Trump and his administration, Biden and his administration.

Well, that administration represents something and that's all these political appointment positions.

And so, you know, it's more than just them.

And I think this is an important distinction.

So when we're voting for that person, again, we're voting for more than them.

And I think that's how we can reconcile the fact that maybe I don't like person a or person b, but we have to look past that.

Not only the issues, what issues do they represent, but also what kind of administration, appointee.

Appointees will they bring to the table?

And so I think it's so important to remember that our vote represents so much more than just one representative person.

That's a good point.

So let's ask the big question then, Mike.

Should christians vote?

And, you know, personally, like I said, I would say yes, and I think I can back it up, you know, with scripture.

But to be totally fair, there's a large group, and I think of that number, you know, 15 million people aren't registered to vote and 40 million, you know, aren't voting.

And you go, what would be driving them?

You know, is it the fact that, you know, they are living in rebellion to God?

And I don't believe that.

There's nothing, unfortunately, in scripture.

I wish there was.

I wish there was a verse that said, if you're a christian, you must vote.

And we could point to that.

Right.

You go.

But it's more complex than that.

It does come down to the individual person.

And again, the beauty of this is that every born again believer has the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said, and when he comes into your life, it says, he will bring to remembrance my word.

And so we need to trust that God is speaking to his people and that his people are listening and being obedient to the Lord.

So I think of it this way.

Think of the word politics for a second.

It comes from the greek word polis, which means I, affairs of the city.

And so is there anything that speaks of that?

And really, a verse that comes to mind is found in the Old Testament in Jeremiah 29 seven.

And it says, and work for the peace and the prosperity of the city where I sent you into exile.

Pray to the Lord for it, for its welfare will determine your welfare.

And I think that's such a perfect verse and understanding.

Yes, we have a responsibility.

You know, Paul, remember, he told Timothy, you know, in first Timothy, you know, chapter two, he says, you know, therefore I exhort first of all that supplications and prayers and intercessions and giving thanks be made for all men.

He says, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may live a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence.

And so, you know, God wants us to be aware of what's going on in the world.

We're not to put our heads in the sand so to speak.

We're to be completely abreast of what is happening in our cities, in our state, in our world.

The problem is today, there's so much information out there.

It's like, how do you get good information?

That's probably another topic.

Maybe we can cover that in another season of how do we determine who and what to listen to?

That's out there.

But, yes, I do believe that we have a responsibility to vote.

I also wanna say this.

Like I said, there's no verse that directly says that.

And then if you study church history, you can find it at any point in Christendom.

I mean, I think going all the way back to the times of Jesus, you know, the different groups that lived.

And if you study one group in particular, they were called the Essenes.

And the Essenes were those that we see, you know, we hear.

We don't see much of them today, but, you know, in America, but in other parts of the world, you know, monasteries, where people withdrew from society, right?

Because they just.

They hated what was going on in the world.

And they thought, man, we'll just go out to the desert and we'll seek God.

And so there.

There are groups that.

And there's a spirit, maybe, of the Essene that is active in the world today, where people go, you know what?

I don't like what's going on in politics.

I don't like who's running for office.

I don't want to be involved with it.

And so I'm just going to, in a sense, go away and I'm just going to focus on me and my family and even maybe hold what Joshua said.

As for me and my house, we're going to serve the Lord.

And then they just totally disengage, if that makes sense.

What about the person that says, or the position that says that we really should keep religion out of politics and politics out of religion?

We're talking about the separation of church and state.

Well, you know, you have to go back.

And I want to encourage the audience.

If you listen to pastors, I just listened to a really great teaching on this just this past week.

Pastor Greg Lorre from Harvest Christian fellowship in Riverside.

He just addressed this so much better than I ever could.

And he talked about that.

You can't find those words.

Separation of church and state.

It's not in the Declaration of Independence.

It's not in the bill of Rights, it's not in the constitution.

And where it came from.

It was Thomas Jefferson, he had said, that pinned those words in a personal letter or someone had asked him about that topic, but it wasn't in a legal document at all.

And there's some great websites where you can go to, and like I said, maybe we can, in the days ahead we can give you a list of things where you can go and you can research for yourself and find those things out.

But we have to understand that.

And I've been on a biblical tour, wall builders is one.

I would tell you, David Barton, I love his ministry.

I took a tour with my wife there and we went through the Capitol building on a biblical tour of our country.

And you would be fascinated that the first congressional meeting in this country, first congressional meeting ever held was a four hour Bible study and a 1 hour congressional meeting.

So the inception of government in this country, there was no separation because God never intended there to be a separation.

Is that Jesus said it, you're the light of the world.

You're the salt of the earth.

I mean, we're to impact everything that takes place in this world.

I want to read a quote from Doctor Martin Luther King that I've had for a long time.

And it's so fitting because when we think about the separation of church and state is that the church is not to be led by the state, but the state is to be influenced by the church.

And you think about this, he said this, Doctor king, he said the church must be reminded that it is not the master or the servant of the state, but rather the conscience of the state.

And I love that it says it must be the guide and the critic of the state and never its tool.

If the church does not recapture its prophetic zeal, it will become an irrelevant social club without moral or spiritual authority.

It's one of the reasons I like Jack Hibbs ministry.

Jack, I think, does a wonderful job of keeping the prophetic zeal in front of the church today, that we can keep our eyes on the right things and help us not focus on the wrong things.

The quote goes on, it says, if the church does not participate actively in the struggle for peace and for economic and racial justice, it will forfeit the loyalty of millions and cause men everywhere to say that it has atrophy its will, or someone say, atrophied.

But if the church will free itself from the shackles of deadening status quo and recovering its great historic mission, will speak and attract fearlessly and insistently in terms of justice and peace.

It will enkindle the imagination of mankind and fire the souls of men, imbuing them with a glowing and ardent love for truth for justice and peace.

Men far and near will know the church as a great fellowship of love that provides light and bread for lonely travelers at midnight.

Man, that was just, you have to just meditate on that for a while.

Yeah, man, that's awesome.

Okay, so then that talks about the separation of church and state.

So then if we should be voting in which we, you and I both believe that, you know, in our, at least in our opinions, that it's wise for christians to vote, what then would you say is the cost of not voting or is there a cost?

Oh yeah, I think, you know, who is it?

Edmund Buck.

I think he probably nailed this thought more than anybody.

We all know it.

And as soon as I start to say it, you'll remember it.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

Yeah.

And I think that kind of sums it up.

You know, that we have to understand, yes.

We have a responsibility in this life.

You know, we, like I said in Matthew, it tells us, you know, we are the light of the world and we are the salt of the earth and there's a tremendous cost if we don't get involved.

Yeah.

Amen.

So going further, I wanted to point out a couple things too.

I think of romans 13.

That reminds us that all authority is established by God and is talking politically.

He's talking kings, right?

He's talking all those things.

And so I think, and I've heard people say this before, so it could be easy for that person then to, to move to a place of belief that, um, yeah, I believe Paul said that I, you know, I believe that that's God's word.

I trust in that.

So I'm going to take the position that it's in God's control and I don't really even need to do anything.

I'm just going to sit back and what God's going to do, God's going to do, which, you know, he, he will, his will will be done.

But I think some people can take a passive approach that, okay, God's got this.

Cool.

I'm just going to, like you said, take care of my family and not worry about it and I'll just see it on the news the next day and see who the new president is.

And I think that really is in many regards a poor way of looking at it.

When we think about our american society, our submission includes participation.

Voting is how we contribute to shaping the laws and the policies of the country and the government that govern us.

And just as we have responsibilities within our family and communities that we have a duty to ensure that government stays aligned with justice and truth and that we can't just be silent in the face of corruption or apathy.

And it's how we don't stay silent.

Voting is how we say something that's us using our voice in a tangible and practical way through the voting process.

Yeah.

And I think just kind of to add to that, you know, it's a privilege, obviously, in a free society for people to be able to vote, and we can't take that for granted.

You know, it's like we tell people, hey, if you don't vote, then don't complain.

Right?

Right.

Cause your vote in many ways is your voice.

Is your voice.

And then we also have a responsibility.

And I think the responsibility people get lost in the term vote.

But if we just looked at it from, you know, the commandments of God and the life of the believer, you know, mark, chapter twelve, verse 30 says, and you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind and all your strength.

And in verse 31, here's the key.

And to me was why we vote as a Christian.

And maybe we've got this wrong, but it says the second is equally important.

Love your neighbor as yourself.

No other commandment is greater than these.

Voting in many ways is we're voting for the benefit of our neighborhood that, you know, things that I can't directly, you know, Jesus said, they asked Jesus, who's my neighbor?

You know, he's like, it's not the guy on your right or your left.

It's your neighbors wherever you go in this life, in this world.

So we're going to come in contact with all kinds of people.

And the Bible says we're to love our neighbor as ourself.

And so voting is a way that we get to do that because you go, man, and we've all done it.

You know, we watch programs on tv, we listen to things and we go, man, you know, if I could just help that person, you know, I see the need that's right now that's on the east coast, you know, due to this, you know, hurricane and the devastation and the damage.

And you go, man, I wish.

And you go, but I'm just one person.

Right.

But voting gives us that privilege and that platform to be able to go, hey, well, let's establish under laws and rules of laws, ways that we can care for other people, you know, and, and so what a great responsibility.

And who more than the church?

Because Jesus said anybody who desires to come after me, must do what, must deny himself.

So, unfortunately, I think a lot of times, christians approach voting from a personal perspective, like, what's in it for me?

Where we need to maybe change our philosophy a little bit and go, wait, it's not about me.

It's not about you.

It's about everybody else.

And then looking to establish, you know, a voting record that takes care of people.

I think that's what we would all love to see happen, you know, in America.

Yeah.

And I think, to your point, I think of John 1512.

It talks about no greater love than to lay down one's life or one's friends.

So I think about all the men and women who come before us that have laid their life down, whether it's world War one, world War two, even before that, or the most, you know, modern deployments.

You know, I've got a, you know, one of my lifelong good friends, you know, did a couple of deployments, was injured in Iraq.

But why?

It's to secure the freedoms that America enjoys is to defend our freedom.

It's to defend the very right for us to go to the polls and to be able to vote in a free election.

And so, you know, people have died for our right to vote, too.

Now they've also died for our right not to vote.

So it works both ways.

But it's also, I would also say that I think James 214 through 17, that challenges us to show our faith by our works.

And again, this isn't a so logical issue.

It's not an issue of salvation.

But should christians act?

And, yes, I think very clearly, James talks about we have to act.

We have to do things.

And voting is a way for us to kind of put that into action as well.

And again, putting our voice out of it's an opportunity, really to demonstrate our faith by participating in shaping our society.

We trust that God is a sovereign over all things, and he's also called us to act in obedience to his command.

And that includes standing up for righteousness and justice.

And part of how we can do that, like this November, for instance, is we go to the polls and we vote.

We use our voice.

Amen.

I think of, as you're saying, that remind me in proverbs, it says, when the righteous rule, the people rejoice, and when the wicked rule, the people groan, you know, and so God's going, hey, you picked him.

It's like, remember, you know, we don't want a monarchy any longer with you as our king, God.

We want a king like everybody else.

Okay, so here's Saul.

Here you go.

He's going.

And you're not gonna like it, you know?

So, yeah, this is not a new problem.

No, no, there's nothing new under the sun for sure.

So.

Okay, so let me ask you this last question.

I live in a state that does not elect the party I vote for.

So what is the point?

Yeah, that's a.

And it's a great point at that because it can feel defeated.

But the beauty of this, it's just like, you know, we live in a world.

Is everybody a Christian in the world that you live in?

And you go, no.

So again, living as kingdom people, you know, our, the Lord's prayer was, was what?

You know, not my will be done, but your will and, and your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Think about that.

And so there is something, you know, that we are to align ourselves, you know, on earth as things are in heaven.

But we don't do that corporately.

We do that individually.

And so one day, you know, I'm not going to stand with you or you with me or with anybody else is we're all going to stand before goddess and give an account of our lives.

And so what we want to do in any situation is make good decisions in life that we see that are biblical through a biblical lens and know that, you know, in good conscience and good faith.

You know, I didn't do like, remember sometimes as a kid my dad didn't like, you know, who the candidate was.

You know, we say now, you know, vote for policy, not for personality.

Right, right.

And it's so true, too.

You made it.

Great point.

You know, in the first episode that we didn't record, we were talking about, you know, the federal government's got, you know, 4000 employees.

So you're not just electing, you know, one person.

You're electing, you know, 4001, say, you know, so what do you do when the guy that you know, or gal that you're voting for, you know, isn't, you know, like in the state of California?

If you are a Republican, you're probably not going to win a whole lot of national elections because we are predominantly a blue state.

So what do we do?

And you go, well, you vote the way that God would call you to vote.

You do what you can do.

You don't worry about what you can't do.

It always reminds me of that.

And it's really about personal peace and personal joy, personal conviction.

You know, count it all joy.

When you go through various trials right?

It reminds me of that, that quick little story about the little boy who's walking on the beach and he's throwing starfish into the ocean.

There's hundreds of them.

They're on the beach.

They washed ashore.

There was an old man fishing next to him, and he was watching the kid for a second, laughing, and he goes, hey, kid.

He goes, you know, you're not going to make a difference there.

He goes, look at, there's hundreds, if not thousands of starfish on that beach.

And the little kid bent down, he picked up, and he goes, yeah, it might not make a difference for them all, but it's going to make a difference for this one.

And he tosses it in the ocean.

And I just say that as a word of encouragement to anyone who feels frustrated with the system and maybe who the choices are, our choice is always God.

The Bible says, and I don't fully comprehend this, so I'm just telling you what I see in scripture here.

But it says, you know, promotion doesn't come from the east or from the west.

It comes from the Lord.

So to your point, you know, God's sovereign.

So ultimately, God's going to have the say so, and there's a lesson in every person.

So what can we do?

We know the will of God, you know, is that in everything, you know, we would give thanks, right?

And we would be prayerful, and we'd be joyful.

And you go, that's God's will.

So it doesn't, sometimes we don't win the election, you know, that how things.

And it's really not to expose that person, it's to expose my own heart.

So I close with this.

That's why to me, second chronicles 714 is so profound.

If my people, he doesn't say, if the world, you know, would change and do this, if my people, who are called by my name, would humble themselves and pray and seek my face, he says, then would I hear from heaven, and then would I heal their land, you know, and I go.

So I just say, hey, if it's not going the way you want, guess what?

You know, Jesus is still king.

He's still on the throne.

And, you know, you vote the way that, you know, you believe.

God's called you.

Don't compromise, don't give in.

You know, stand your ground, put on the full armor of God, and I think you'll be blessed when you do.

And our, our hope does not lie in a country, does not lie in a body or government, but lies solely in the promises, faithfulness, of God.

So as Christians, voting really is more than just a civic duty.

It's an act, I think, of stewardship, of obedience, and of, like you said, love for our neighbors.

And so by voting, you know, really we uphold justice, we protect life.

That's gonna be our theme next week and demonstrate our faith in action.

And I think, like you said and I said, it's really a privilege, a duty, and an essential way to love our neighbors and honor God's will for the world, for our life.

And so let us not grow weary in doing good, but continue to pray, continue to seek God's wisdom and really into vote in a, to vote in a way that glorifies God and promotes righteousness and donation.

Thank you for joining us this week.

And join us next week as we look at a topic of the right to life and a woman's right to choose.

If you have questions, you can email us at reallife@ccbakersville.com.

or if you were just blessed by this week's episode, we'd love to hear from you.

So thank you for listening, and we'll catch you in the next episode.