Scott Is that

industry broken?

It's got some

big cracks in it.

I reckon.

, we've got a series

of, hurdles.

The labor supply issue,

the price increases,

the fact that for a lot

of people, the projects

just don't stack up with

what they're now worth.

, and it's not

just residential.

It's like multi res is

in a really bad place.

, architect friends of mine

who've, you know, one of

these amazing projects and

they've documented them

, And they're ready to go

to construction and the

developers are just turning

around and saying, man, I'm

not going to start that.

I'm not going to build

40 apartments, and make

no money on, on them.

It just doesn't stack up.

Town planning issue

because they haven't

allowed them to go

high enough, therefore

they can't get their

profit into the project?

, it's primarily just, the

cost increases between

when they've, bought their

piece of land, they've

done everything else.

They've got their numbers

as to what they need

to get as a return out

of it to not be better

actually just putting

the money somewhere else.

, and post COVID

price increases.

It's worse in Sydney

from what I can work out

on that side of things.

there's a whole pile

of new, regulations and

hoops to jump through

up there as well.

A lot of which is,

he's coming down here.

Well, it was officially

announced about an hour

ago that it is coming up.

The VBA being stripped

by their powers if you

haven't read or seen that?

No, well, I saw it

was being muted.

that's official.

It's going to be very,

very interesting, but I

think people also need to

understand that developers,

they need to make money.

That's their job.

And consumers out there,

people need developers

as places to live.

So everyone sort of shit

cans on developers a lot of

the time, but we need them.

Yeah.

Oh, if you get the only

way out of a housing

crisis is by multi ways.

There's no way that

we're going to build

it out in the suburbs.

, and it needs to be a

variety of models, I

mean, like, you know,

Nightingale model in, in

Melbourne, it's brilliant.

It's got so much

going for it.

It solves so many

problems, but it's

kind of niche as well.

Isn't it ironic that the

council, like, reject

them, but then give

them all the awards

for what they produce?

yeah, I was funny enough,

I was just here on Sunday

at the Nightingale village,

because they're now going

to elevate the rail line

all the way back to the

park., and have decided to

put the station directly

adjacent to Nightingale,

when it could be one

block further down because

they're basically getting

rid of one station in the

process of doing this.

It could be one block

further away, has better

access to Sydney Road,

has better pedestrian

access from everywhere.

There are two vacant

blocks there, so whatever

it ends up getting built

there could be built

as a response to the

fact that they've got a

railway station there,

rather than literally

a meter away from the,

like, there's balconies

there that they'll be

able to reach around the

corner and touch the edge

of the infrastructure.

Come on, we can't

use common sense.

we know what councils

and governments are like.

They would require

common sense.

when it first sort of

rolled out in the southern

suburbs, you know,

there's that absolute

nimbyism of, and people

are scared of change.

And they, all they saw

was that it was going to

be an absolute disaster.

, I had friends who,

who had a house

that backed onto it.

They were so

staunchly against it.

And then it happened.

And it was pushed through

and it was pushed through

because unfortunately

sometimes these big

projects, if you sit

back and consult with

all the stakeholders,

the political term is so

short that you've actually

got a two year window

to get anything done.

And if you get outside

of that, then the

incoming people, you're

back to square one.

That's why we don't

have a railway line

out to the airport.

And the only way sometimes,

You elect governments

to make sometimes to

make difficult decisions

for the greater good.

And it never going

to suit everyone.

So there is an

element of that to it.

But when they started

doing it in the Southern

suburbs, suddenly there was

all this feedback going,

Oh, that like the trains

are actually quieter.

Now they're up in the air.

It was like, we've been

trying to tell you this

the entire way through.

I've almost missed

trains in Cobourg.

Walking underneath it

because they're so well

insulated because they're

on rubber mounts, it's

all the modern technology,

all this sort of stuff,

where you actually

listen to it going, oh

shit, is that a train?

And you don't know

whether to run or not,

and you actually have to

think, like am I hearing

a truck going down Bell

Street, or is that a

train coming towards it?

So, it's entirely unlike

the suburbs, like all of

that stuff is wonderful,

but then have not to go

village being held up as

this absolute exemplar

housing model, and

then have the body Go.

Well, we've already kind

of decided that this is

where we were going to

put the station because

it's kind of equidistant

between here and here.

I think as a Japan, I

think what they do is

they, if they have a new

station coming up, they

sell it to developers.

Developers can do whatever

they want around it, above

it, near it, but they have

to pay for the station.

Which would make total

sense because they can

build it in and everyone,

you have one design team.

Yep.

and how efficient is

it going to be and how

much more aesthetically

pleasing is it going to be?

And the fact that a station

is an asset, like they

recognize the fact that if

you're going to have 500,

000 people a day going

through that corridor.

as an opportunity rather

than as a negative.

Yeah.

And just like the

developers build a little

bit higher, they've got

to make money and I think

it's Canada have the model

where if , you can build

to a certain height and

then like, if you now allow

some, shops there, we'd

let you go another height,

like a certain amount.

And if you then add like

passive house, you can

go to another height.

And if you add

social housing, you

can add on more.

So they allow you

to build more if you

meet certain criteria.

they also put you through

the planning system a lot

quicker, rather than go

through this, like, let's

argue back and forth, but

let's just go to VCAT.

Yeah.

the commercial

reality is that that's

generally the way all

of these things are.

Best achieved is to

make the things that

you don't want to happen

more expensive and

make the things that

the results that you

do want more appealing

and you get there.

And that's how we lower

construction costs, too.

so just in case no

one, Has any idea

who you are, Scott?

Because we've kind

of gone on a little

bit of a tangent

already, which I love.

Could you please tell

our listeners, , who

you are and what

your background is?

so my firm is called

Comb Construction.

, where I'm a residential

builder spot in the market

is high end residential to

ultra high end residential.

If that's such a thing

we work on very large,

very expensive houses

and apartments, but

we also try and Have

a variety of scales.

We're looking at a

project at the moment.

That's an 800, 000

extension in queue.

An architect that I'd met

at a talk was giving phone

me up and just said, look,

I know this isn't really

what you do, and I know

it's a bit cheeky, but can

I send you some drawings

and just have a look at it?

And I said, yep.

Drawing came through

cracking little project,

like really beautifully

resolved, simple perfect

for client who is in

her late 50s, early 60s.

She's an artist like

as being appropriate

for her needs.

I think it's extraordinary.

So, you know, I

haven't got that many

houses left in me.

I just want to do ones

that we really enjoy doing.

and you need, you know, you

need a mix, you need some

that you know, that you're

going to make money out of,

you'll be other ones that

you look at and go, I think

we're not going to make a

coin out of this, but it's

a cracking little project.

And you get to train staff.

about, you know, how

we work and keeping the

projects interesting

and keeping the passion

up for us is a big, a

key part of getting a

team together that can

produce the kind of work

that we want to produce.

Um,

Get worried though,

like, when you say that

there's no money to be

made in the project,

doesn't that concern you?

Because at because if one

little thing goes wrong

and all of a sudden,

you have to now wear it.

yeah, yeah,

we've won a few.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think if you're a

builder, that's that's

unfortunately what

happens sometimes.

Nice segue into is the

industry broken that lesson

that a lot of people have

learned post COVID, you

know, there's a lot of

builders out there who

just kind of float along

from project to project,

not really analyzing,

Where the money went,

what they got out of it,

because it's kind of rolled

into the next project.

And, you know, deposit

comes in, and then

this one sort of cross

subsidizes that one.

And they're so busy

building that they actually

don't look at the numbers.

COVID was a pretty

sobering experience, I

think, for a lot of people

in the industry, as to

exactly what the numbers

look like, and exactly

what the numbers look

like if things change.

can change quickly.

They can change

very quickly.

They can change

very unexpectedly.

I'm not suggesting that,

you know, there's another

pandemic around the

corner but it did prove

to a lot of people and

a lot of people, let's

be straight about it.

There's a lot of

builders who have, who

are no longer here,

including in, in like in

my market, like the whole

way through you know,

the, domes, the Franks,

the CBD contracting, like

there's a lot of big names

who aren't there anymore.

And they got called out

for a variety of reasons.

And.

we were probably a

little bit lucky with our

timing of what projects

that we had going at

that point in time.

Uh, or we very easily have

been in the same boat.

do you think the issue is

that the contracts that

we have in construction,

whether it might be like,

there's no rise and fall

clause that can actually

help with builders?

Because I think that's

something that needs

to be considered.

And I understand that

puts some of the risk

back on the client,

but it also lowers

the price of building.

Yes, because we

almost exclusively

work with architects.

Some of the apartments

we do, we do with

interior designers, but

generally it's architects

and therefore Default

is the ABIC contract.

So AB Contracts is an

architect issued contract.

So you generally have

your industry, your

HIA master builders,

which the banks love.

ABIContracts, look, there's

retention, there is, well,

there's a lot of things

yeah.

I mean, a significant

difference between the two.

And, I actually think

that the HIA contract

and the master builders

contract it's got all its

own flaws and foibles.

But the primary difference

between the two, for those

who are not kind of well

versed in them is that the

master builder's contract,

works on the basic premise

that the builder needs

to be protected from

the client not being

able to pay their bills.

That's the basic

structure of it.

Whereas the ABIT contract

is exactly the opposite.

The ABIT contract works on

the fact that the client

needs to be protected

from the builder going

broke and not delivering.

So essentially,

there's nothing to

force them to pay you.

Securities Payment

Act does, but,

Yes., it's a

binding contract.

It is forcing them

to pay you if they

don't want to pay you.

we have had one where

the client didn't pay

the final claim, planned

that afterwards that

they'd lost their job.

Actually extracting that

money out of them was

incredibly difficult and

ultimately we failed.

And that was a six figure

loss from the final claim.

but it's, yeah, as you

say, with retentions, so

the idea there being that

5 percent of the project

value is withheld till

the end of the project,

at which point you get

half of that back, and

then the other half

in 12 months time is a

sort of warranty period.

It was a struggle

and we had architects

around saying, Oh,

you know, I don't know

what your problem is.

Everyone else is

fine with them.

I'm like, can tell you

they're not fine with them.

what I we've had a contract

a couple of times and

well, a few times, couple

of times we've actually

managed to contract out of

the retention other times

it's been there, but what I

can't quite understand is.

We're all regulated by the

Domestic Building Contract

Act, which makes us

liable for this, or sorry,

the Building Act, sorry

which makes us liable,

structurally liable for

that building for 10 years.

It's not seven years, like

our warranty insurance

says, for structural

defects it's 10.

So surely that's enough?

And this is what there's

a conversation I have

with the architect.

Surely that's enough.

Like we, we are statutory

obligated to warranty these

structures for 10 years.

You know, you

holding onto that 2.

5 percent just doesn't

seem fair because

we're kind of got both

our testicles held.

Why isn't the architect

putting up her attention

for their design as well?

That could go wrong.

Well, that's

the other part of that also

is that, and this is the

one that we pushed away

from a long time ago was

that under the terms of

the contract they can also.

Withhold 5 percent of

the, of each progress

claim, but they can

withhold 10 percent until

they've reached the 5%.

So that means that for

the first six months of

a 12 month project, 10

percent of the project of

your claims gets withheld.

I've, I mean, I've done

an Excel spreadsheet to

explain to an architect who

just didn't get why I had

just this bug there about

AB contracts that showed

that in fact, A builder if

10 percent's being withheld

actually only goes into

profit and minimal profit

on a 12 month project in

about month 10, they're

behind the eight ball

all the rest of the time.

And there is this,

perception that builders

are banks because the

other one that's now.

Has got architects

running scared because

so many builders have

gone down because clients

have then sued them.

they won't pay

deposits on things.

won't pay deposit

on the contract.

they won't pay deposits

on, for example.

If we, and the other

thing is that all

the subcontractors

are now wanting

deposits.

So, before they'll actually

lock in a project, they're

saying, yeah, you're going

to need to give us 30%, you

know, the cabinet makers,

whoever it is but like

stone, we will generally

at any point in time,

probably have 150, 000 in

deposits outstanding for

stone, for tiles, for,

Plumbing fittings and

fixtures, lighting supply.

Correct.

Yeah.

I mean, you can probably

see behind me, it's

starting to look like,

again, like a Chinese

laundry in here, just

from all of the light

fittings, tapware, that

we end up having to bring

here, because unless it's

here and we can certify

it, even if it's sitting

with the supplier, fully

paid for, the architects

won't honor it in a claim.

I, I just don't

understand, like, at the

end of the day we all

want the same result.

Don't the architects

want the builder to keep

their project going so

then they can get their

project completed so

they can do the next one

and keep working in a

collaborative environment?

It's litigation.

Yeah, I know.

That's what it basically

just comes back to

the fact that, I mean,

there's, look, there's

one architect that I

know that I was talking

to at this symposium in

Brisbane, and they had

a builder to go broke.

And for argument's sake,

it was a $5 million job.

builder Togo's broke with

$4 million worth of claims

paid, and therefore,

in theory, $1 million

left of the project.

Builder goes broke.

Client gets in an

independent certifier who

says, I reckon there's

about 2 million worth

of work left to do.

Not arguing that maybe

4 million worth of

work had been done,

but just saying there's

2 million to the end.

They get another couple

of builders in who,

unsurprisingly, don't

turn around and say,

Oh no, probably 800K

will finish this off.

And instead are also

saying, well, it's

probably about, in current

terms, there's probably

about 2 million worth

of work left to do.

Now doesn't mean that

the builder necessarily

has over claimed.

He might have just ended

up Breaking even on the

project or even losing

a bit of money on it.

Yeah, it's been

going for two years.

Whichever way around it's

ended up, but the position

is that then the client.

Sue's the architect

saying that you have over

certified on the project

because you needed to

only certify, you needed

to be aware that at that

point, a million dollars

wasn't going to finish it.

well, then just, shouldn't

we remove percentages

and just do stage

claims and have like

15 to 20 stage claims?

So it's very

black and white.

For example, that

you've got your windows

ordered or they're

installed or they're not.

when we do a master

builder's contract and

we have on a couple of

occasions done it with

architects and just kind

of said, this is the way

that we're going to do it.

Particularly with

cost plus ones,

Cause a big.

don't have a cost plus

domestic contract is

basically written some

conditions into there that

mean that the architect

can administer it which is

actually all very simple

because at the end of the

day, the master builder's

contract does refer to the

owner or owner's agent.

Like it's not actually

difficult to make

them administrable

by an architect.

They feel that they're

kind of losing control.

all of that can kind of be

written in to make it work,

but at the end of the day,

a contract is intended,

its purpose in law is to

provide an equity of risk.

That's the reason

you have contracts.

And I understand that

for, you know, mom

and dad, young family

building their home, they

want a fixed price and

the bank will only lend

them a certain amount.

Which makes it more

challenging to then

have rise and fall

clauses or to do it as

a cost plus contract.

again, working in a,

slightly different kind

of area with clients

who generally are

not borrowing money

the Ryzen 4 plot

thing clause does

make a lot of sense.

If they can provide

proof, maybe they can't

add margin to it but they

can cover their costs.

So it's a win

win for everyone.

The client, the builder

gets to claim what

they've had to spend.

The client doesn't

get the margin on it.

wouldn't that

make sense for

everyone?

It would, but I think

banks won't wear it.

Because they see it

as potentially, they

don't know what they're

lending they're actress.

They're sitting there going

you want to spend 2 million

renovating this house.

We're looking at it saying,

okay, is it reasonable

that if you went broke

as in the client went

broke before you pay

that loan, we're going

to get our money back.

But couldn't they maybe

reduce their, like,

their borrowing capacity?

So they do this when you

get a loan for a mortgage

that they want to work

out that you can service

a certain percentage above

the current interest rate.

Couldn't they do the same

thing that, hey, that

you can only, like, the

contract we've written

that you can have a rise

in price for up to maybe

10 percent of the contract

or 5, couldn't they do the

same so when they go borrow

the money, that is taken

into account by the banks?

In my experience,

everyone spends everything

that they can borrow.

Yeah, totally, 100%, but

maybe that's the wrong

model.

so Scott, this might,

this might sound really

simple, but surely a

successful project is

that the architect's

design gets built, the

client gets a beautiful

home to live in, and

the builder makes money?

excuse my ignorance.

But isn't that the

true reflection of a

successful project?

And it kind of almost

sounds as if everybody's

entering into this

agreement with the

assumption that someone

in that relationship

is not going to win.

no argument with that

on the wrong foot.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It needs to be, I think

there needs to be a bit of

a reset as to exactly what

that dynamic looks like.

I think that is at the

core of what is making

the construction industry

in residential anyway.

Okay.

Inequitable the builder

is taking all of the

risk and, and that's

the double whammy.

So the, the risk that

the client is taking is

that the bill goes broke

and that they have to

get someone else in to

finish it and it costs

more than it was going to

cost in the first place.

But the easiest way to make

the builder go broke, is

if the builder is doing

it for a number that

he can't build it for.

that is like a self

fulfilling prophecy.

If you convince a builder

that they need to do

it for a price that is

unsustainable, then you

are massively increasing

the risk that you're

going to end up in the

worst case scenario.

Especially a young builder

that's starting out,

A young builder who's

starting out, who has

very little buffer who is

going to be inexperienced

in managing cashflow

as much as anything.

But even if, yeah, even if

they're a really talented

builder and they don't get

caught up by missing out on

exclusions that a plumber's

put in, they're going

to catch them unawares.

So they're actually,

they get hit left,

right, and center.

Even without all that layer

of complexity, just the

basic business management

of actually not getting

that big progress claim

coming in going, whoa,

all right,

New boat, new

we're good.

is the model just to

go cost plus across

the whole board?

I was never a fan of

cost plus contracts

until COVID basically, we

never, we never did one.

We entered into one

for a large project

just before COVID.

And that's where

I was saying,

some very lucky timing,

a combination of a client

who had very, very deep

pockets, who just wanted

what he wanted, was

having a bit of a midlife

crisis and a project that

went from, that almost

doubled in value from

start to finish.

it went over 10 mil for

renovation extension.

And they can still fund it.

They didn't even know.

Like there's some people

that didn't even know.

They're like, Oh, did

that money get taken out?

some of these numbers,

for some of our listeners,

in fact, I'd say for

most of our listeners

are probably just sort of

fanciful kind of figures

that, you know, don't

ever think about, but I

actually think that, you

know, some of the messaging

that we're hearing

today is, is beneficial.

Scott, do you have

any advice for a young

builder who gets told by,

and again, this is not

a stab at an architect

at all, or the design.

industry.

Do you have any advice

for a young builder when

they get told that their

price is too expensive?

yes, but it is incredibly

difficult to judge.

I've been doing.

This in Melbourne for

20 years, I still get

caught out by being told

by architects that, Oh

yeah, I would really like

to recommend you, but you

know, you're still like

your margins high or,

you know, this is high.

What are they

basing that off?

What do they say?

Oh, they just because

they think this is what

it's worth or this is

what you should get paid.

These were in three

builder tenders.

Interestingly, one of

the builders I talked to

afterwards, That told me

I was the highest price.

being able to have

the confidence to and

particularly for young

builder and if it's

a known architect,

it's intoxicating.

And it can be

a game changer.

Young architect.

to get the publicity of

actually having a project

that gets photographed

that, you know, it

potentially ends up in

magazines, potentially

ends up winning awards.

It's, and it's not

even just that it's,

it's good for the ego.

It can be a game changer

to your business.

100 percent and

it's marketing.

That's how you get in the

next project, but I want

to go back to a question.

everyone walks around

to builders and go,

what's your margin?

What do you, what

are you running at?

and this is, I'll give this

advice to an architect.

If anyone asks me that

same question, I'll

ask them what's theirs.

Like, why, why does

anyone need to know?

Yep.

Like, Hamish and I

are very open about

what our margins are.

And we're fine with that.

But, is it anyone's

business to understand what

their business model is?

I had always, again,

yeah, lessons learned

through COVID.

I had always worked on

the basis that we were

just open and transparent

we had our numbers and the

bottom line was the margin

we would always argue that

variations were charged

at a higher margin rate,

which a lot of architects

would turn around

and say, well, surely

you're already on site.

Surely it's less.

Yeah.

I said, no, because

we'd actually be best

served by just building

what you've designed,

what we've quoted, and

we just move forward.

You don't make money

in a

variation.

direction, every time

we quote something, get

someone to the roof of the

quote something, and then

inevitably, it's never

just once, it's, oh, okay,

more than we thought.

if we did.

Version B of that.

And so you go backwards,

you go forwards, you go

backwards, you go forwards.

So that has to cost

more than something

that's part of the

margin of a big package.

Surely one little bespoke

thing has gotta have,

attract more margin to it.

We did actually, we've

actually got a project

at the moment where

there's a client didn't

want to go down that

path and another builder.

No, he's always run on the

basis of and we discussed

it years ago and he said,

yeah, I don't know why

it's always a really hard

sell to get an increased

margin on variations.

What they do is they just

charge a 350 flat fee for

every variation, whether

it proceeds or not.

So if they come to you

and say, can you tell

us how much it would be

to add another door into

the lounge room you go

through the exercise, you

give them the numbers.

And then if they turn

around and go, yeah,

don't worry about it.

350 a day.

So, so you could

do that as well.

And I've been toying

with your idea.

It's like, it's a, it's

like value management or

anything that you just

will get charged the hourly

rate to investigate it.

Yep.

we have a special clause

in our contract that

says exactly that.

I think ours is 380x GST

work through a variation

if it goes ahead or not.

And, I think it's a

really great handbrake

for clients because,

and even architects.

And again, I'm saying

this with a huge amount

of respect because I

respect everybody's time,

just like I would want

my time to be respected

because it does take time.

And I think I really

like that kind of analogy

or that the image that

it brings up in my mind

where you are changing

direction because that,

that slows momentum.

Yep.

And I think that needs to

be reflected in the price

that that then attaches

because yep, we're going to

cost this, but it's going

to slow things down, which

has these flow on effects.

and I'll tell you right

now, 380 does not come

anywhere near covering any

costs to doing a variation,

but it does make clients

and architects to have

a think for a second to

go, Oh, hang on a minute.

Could I maybe think about

this a little bit more?

So why not the hourly rate?

Why not the hourly rate?

version?

Because if it, if you

flip this other side, if

an architect is asked to

make a variation during

the build and they need

to change the design, they

do it on hourly rate, but

it don't have a flat fee.

And I think rightfully

so because their

time is valuable.

think that is better

approach, but I think it's

a hard sell to get over

the line because they see a

potentially endless number.

That don't change anything.

Have your

documentation, right?

Trust your process.

But no, but you're right.

Hamish that the 350, 380

fee makes people question

when they know that

they're going to get it.

It gets rid of those

Sunday afternoon.

Oh, here's a thought.

What if.

Oh, why don't you ask

the builder how much

that's going to cost.

It gets rid of those.

And the other

thing being is it.

Architect.

Yeah.

I was discussing this with

a couple of months ago

and he said, where's the

effect of until something

has a financial value,

it's not respected.

he was having exactly the

same scenario where he

He'd been on a fixed price

fee, blah, blah, blah.

Client comes back and says,

Oh, what if we made that

skylight a bit bigger?

Can you just do me a

quick sketch as to what

that would look like?

And he said, I used to

just do those all the time.

and now he said, I can, but

I have to charge for it.

And to start with, there's

a bit of bristling.

And he said exactly

the same scenario is

that it makes people

second Just have a

second thought about it.

Like, Oh, so it's going

to cost me 300 bucks

for you to draw it up.

And he goes, yeah, to get

one of my guys to stop

doing what they're doing,

to actually go into that,

model it up potentially,

you know, a couple of

times, then bring it to me.

I look at it and say,

Oh, I reckon maybe if we

offset it to the left,

that's probably going

to be a better outcome.

Blah, blah, blah.

That costs money.

that again, ties back

into that whole concept

of the fact that the,

there needs to be a better

understanding of the fact

that it's not a master

servant relationship here.

everyone's gotta make

a dollar out of it.

Everyone needs

to be respected.

And that's a

two-way street.

but it's very easy.

I think there's been a long

history of the builder kind

of being on the other side

of the fence, that there's,

gray areas with builders

and that the client has

to be protected from

the bill, essentially.

It's changing.

feel it is changing to,

and I think it sort of

goes back to the point I

was trying to make before

is like, what do we define

as a successful project?

And it goes back

to win, win, win.

And I think it's

as simple as that.

this is this symposium

that I was at in Brisbane.

One of the things that

I was talking to there

was exactly that.

question as to what makes

a good collaborative

project and how do

we get architects and

trades and builders all

kind of singing from

the same song sheet.

And my opening was

the needs buy in of

all three parties.

If that's the road that

you want to go down,

as opposed to, here's

a set of drawings,

you build it, here's

the price you quoted.

If you actually want

it to be collaborative,

if the client is not on

board with that, you're

wasting your time.

If there's that open

dialogue and it's a case

of you know, there's a

general design intense

for the whole project.

Architects don't do

axonometric drawings

of every junction of

every bit of a building.

If they want us to come

back and say, look,

I know we've got a 10

mil shadow line, blah,

blah, blah, blah, blah.

But when it comes around

this corner into this

hallway, I don't think

it kind of works because

it clashes like this.

What we try and do is

to do it on the fly

and actually take a

photo or FaceTime it.

And ideally we'll do like

three thumbnail sketches.

We can do A, B or C.

And generally for

an architect, that's

manna from heaven.

They look at it

and they go, he's

identified the problem.

He's given us solutions,

not just, Oh, by the

way, this doesn't work.

Okay.

Send us a new drawing

instead you get you being

proactive and you're

saying look we can do it

is kind of drawn or it's

implied and in response

the expectation is that

the architect deals with it

promptly because if we're

going to stop what we're

doing I'm happy to do it

for a better outcome but

it can't cost us money.

There's problems

that happen daily

on a building site.

And I think in an ABIT

contract, I think the

architect has like, is

it two or four days that

they can take to reply?

So if you think every

single day something

goes wrong, and every

single issue, they

can just hold you up.

And their contract

says that.

There's even there's

one bit in there that

just says it needs to be

within a reasonable time

Yeah, and you can't

claim time extensions

on those as well.

If they take a week,

you can't claim the

time extension if it

completely stops the build.

Yep.

From my understanding.

You can argue it, but yes,

look, it's, it's certainly

not enshrined generally

architects will push back

very hard against claiming

extension of time costs.

But for all our architect

friends that are listening

to this podcast, please

continue to listen.

And I personally want, and

I'm sure Scott and Matt are

going to go on the record

as agreeing with me that we

value working with amazing

architects and designers.

We do not have a job

and we do not build

beautiful things without

architects and designers.

And I think the, In

my mind, the point of

this discussion today

is to just reinforce

that collaborative

approach that it is not

us versus them or them

versus us or clients and

architects versus whoever.

This is a three way

relationship where again,

let's champion the project.

Yep.

And when it works well.

Oh, it's amazing.

And it is the most

enjoyable thing

in the world.

It's the reason

I do this job.

When it all comes together

and there's trust and

there's respect and

everyone comes out the

other end, not feeling

that they've been burned.

a beautiful thing.

think this is why I love

Passive House so much

sometimes because you

have to be, everyone

has to communicate

so early together.

So therefore, once

you're on site,

that just continues,

the trust is there.

And then, everyone's

talked about everything.

So when something

happens, a quick text

message, or, Hey, what

would you do here?

Or, if you're like, Hey, I

think this is what you're

intending and it's not

working, or you think it's

not going to look like you

think it's going to look.

What about this?

communication and

transparency in

construction in my

eyes is the key to a

successful project.

If you lose trust,

it's almost impossible

to get back.

but I exactly

hear what you're saying

about passive house

because it's so what?

Partially clients who've

going down that pathway,

a kind of invested anyway.

you've already narrowed

the marketplace down to

people who actually really

care about how their

house is being built.

but I know builders

who've done very large

projects with clients.

They've only met the

client for the first

time when they're

signing the contracts.

crazy.

Like, I've got a client

who lives in Japan

at the moment and we

talk all the time.

But I said to them,

like, I feel awkward

when you know, I prefer

you guys to be here.

Like, I don't, I like

my every, my fortnightly

meetings when we can

go through things.

I find it easier because

we can talk about

things along the way.

Yeah.

and the projects where

the client is removed.

Oh, look, I understand.

Not everyone's

passionate about.

Design or architecture.

But that's okay.

We can tailor our talks.

So it's not.

Architecture, nerdy

stuff or construction,

nerdy stuff.

It's just talking about

how they're going to

live in the place.

And that this is, I mean,

the number of times that

we do projects, where we

get to the end and I'll

show the client something

and they're like, Oh, I

didn't know we had that.

And I, holy shit, which

of those meetings, it's

not everyone's bag.

Yeah, I just bought the

But as long as you

can get them engaged

into some part of the

process, then everything

else gets easier.

If they're sort of kept

at arm's length behind

a Chinese wall then

conversations about why

something might cost more

or why something's going

to take longer because

we found a better way

of doing it, difficult.

And architects don't

know what things cost,

let's be honest here.

even as a builder, we

struggle at times because

it's, It's hard, you've

got to go work it all out.

And so that's why I always

hate it when an architect's

like, I should cost this.

Again, not poo

pooing an architect.

So you, it's like,

I don't know design.

I don't know how to

design a building.

I don't know

how to use CAD.

I don't go tell people

what, how to use that

program or what it

should look like.

But we do know, we do

know how to build it and

we know how to cost it.

And that is also another

part of the problem with

that with the contract

system even if it's a

master builder's contract,

the fact that there is

the expectation that an

architect will understand

what a bespoke project

is going to cost is

inherent in them being

able to certify a claim

because they're saying,

yes, that amount of work

has been done, but they

have no training in it.

Like the, the architecture

degree does not give them

any training in being

a quantity surveyor.

Oh,

you make mistakes as a

builder, running your

own business, and that's

the only way you learn

how to cost a project.

The only way to learn how

to cost a project is to

continue doing it wrong

until you figure out

yeah,

yeah,

I still get it

yeah.

I do want to change an

area though on architects

because they are good.

And we spoke

about it briefly,

like, and I think it's

really important because

from an architect, How

easy is it for them when

they find a good builder,

they got a relationship,

the next one, the next job

just becomes easier, the

next job becomes easier.

Like the details, they can,

they don't have to draw

all the stuff because they

just know the expectations.

So the relationship I

have, for example, with

James Alterico, I know

what he wants, he knows

what I'm going to do.

Simple.

Oh, and costings exact

opposite of being negative

about the architects.

The contract system

is putting them in a

place to do something

that, it shouldn't be.

yeah, 100%.

I'm going to change the

topic just slightly because

Scott, if people jump onto

your Instagram account.

I think if they don't

know you as in comb

construction, they're going

to think, hang on a minute.

What have I clicked on?

You're quite a passionate.

Person outside of building,

aren't you?

Yeah.

Look, when I started out

on Instagram, I actually

had a an architect, social

media person that I was

sitting next to it at some

awards night who said, oh,

you're going on Instagram.

I'll give you some

free advice, blah,

blah, blah, blah, blah.

I only went on there

because we were

doing a project that

actually did very well.

It won a lot of awards.

It got a lot of publicity

and the designer who.

We were working with,

was very generous in

her comments, both in

the magazine and I was

taking some photos of

the photographer, taking

photos of the project.

And she said, you

put it on Instagram.

I said, I'm not

on Instagram.

She said, you are crazy.

I'm telling you, you'll

get 50 percent of your

work from Instagram.

I went home.

I had a look home

construction with

no underscores or

anything was available.

I had three photos that

I'd taken of the project.

I put them up and I

tagged her on it and

went to bed thinking,

what are you doing?

You're shouting out this.

No one even

knows you exist.

You had no followers.

What are you thinking is

going to come with this?

And I woke up the next

morning and she had

regrammed one of my images

with a lovely comment

by our amazing builder.

And I had 250 followers.

Perfect.

And I went, whoa, this is.

Powerful.

Phil here, but I've always,

I've met the same guy,

sort of, you know, PR guy

probably 18 months later

and I said, we never did

catch up for that chat by

which stage, I don't know.

I had 10, 000 followers

and he laughed and he

just said, I don't think

I need to tell you what

to do about Instagram.

And we had a bit of a

chat and he said, cause

what you do with your

Instagram, I would advise

anyone not to do, he

said, you post too much.

Now you said you post

three times a day, you

do three posts a day.

I said, I'll just kind

of, it was the first thing

was like a trip ditch

and I kind of, you know,

sometimes I don't post

anything sometimes, but

generally I'll kind of post

in batches of three just

because it kind of looked

in

my head kind of.

yourself?

Do it on myself.

Yep.

Yep.

And it's gone on all sorts

of different tangents.

And that was the other

thing, as I said I would

be telling you, do not post

more than one post a day.

Stay on brand.

Stay on topic.

He said, I look

at your stuff.

And like one day you're

posting all this stuff

about Ford Mustangs.

And you've seen one in

the street and then that

will disappear for like

two weeks, looking at

various classic cars.

I did probably two month

thing on on effectively

airships, it started from

a post about Caboose air

arriving in the Harbor

at Rio de Janeiro on the

graph Zeppelin, and it was

a photo that I was posting

about something else.

I went down the wormhole

as to how did the, he

was on the graph Zeppelin

like timelines didn't

line up and it went and

I had architects a friend

who's an architect in

the Netherlands who I

said, look, I'm kind of

going off on a bit of a

tangent and he said, mate,

Post whatever you want.

He said, we're loving it.

And if someone doesn't

dig it, then they don't

follow it.

It's always had

an ethical bent.

And I just thought in

more recent times the, you

know, there's been issues,

it was the yes campaign.

Things that I'm passionate

about and that I think.

I, for my own sanity

and also for my kids,

I've got a 13 year

old and a 16 year old.

I think it's important

that they see that

I live what I say.

Yeah.

And I've got a platform.

It's a pissy little one.

Like it's,

back at the comments?

I try very hard to

never block anyone.

Yep.

I don't want to live

in a bubble at my

own little echo chamber.

Extraordinarily

despite a long and,

fairly comprehensive

documentation of what I

see is going on in Gaza.

my comment section is

extraordinarily positive.

is that maybe the only

topic where a lot of people

are actually aligned?

Because a lot of people

are not aligned on a

lot of things in our

life, and that seems

not to be one of them.

I would argue that there's

probably a population

who is building in the

upper echelon, which

probably is not aligned.

And I would probably have

as hazard a guess that you

might do work business with

some of these people too.

And I'm sure that

has

its.

to.

yeah, no, I, I was

quite swiftly dumped

by significant clients.

And well, it was put

to me that I should, I

should be taking down

what I was posting.

Um,

I think as well, when

you're posting about

it, it's not like you're

picking your side.

You're simply saying

this, we can't do this.

it was the other

way around, like,

we can't do this.

Just stop it.

It's not a picking

side thing.

It's like, we just want

to stop what's happening.

I followed it for 40 years.

I had two Jewish

friends at school.

I went to school in Sydney.

It was a large

Jewish population.

they were very good

mates and they fell

out in very dramatic

fashion in a way that I

just didn't understand.

they both had

connections to Israel.

they were good

friends of mine.

They were good

friends of each other.

And then I got to the

bottom of it and it

was over Palestine is

what they'd fallen out

and they had, their

families had two very

different, one was quite

progressive and one wasn't.

And so I read up on it and

I've kind of been following

it for, as I say, 40 years.

And this just felt like,

kind of a bridge too far.

And I had a platform

it's my own.

I like I understand there's

a lot of people in the

construction industry and

there's a lot of people

in the architecture

industry who've reached

out to me and said,

yeah, lovely things.

yeah, I wish I

could do the same.

had.

Photos taken with

architects who are friends

and I've had like a Gaza

t shirt on, and I'll,

if I'm going to repost

the photo, I'll just

scrub that out because

it's not their battle.

yeah, 100%.

Yeah.

You're not bringing

everyone into your fight.

This is just This is

what you believe in.

If you don't like

it, unfollow.

This is what I stand for

just don't have to watch

if you don't like it or

I'm not gonna push it, in

a sense, down your throat.

This is my opinion.

Exactly.

And look, I try very hard

to, fact check what I

republish or repost or

comments that I make.

I try to just keep it

to basically factual

historical factual.

On the one hand, I

understand this is a

continual thing that

it's, you know, it's

very complicated.

You don't understand.

I followed it

for a long time.

I've got a pretty good

handle on it on one level.

It's actually not

complicated at all.

Like, and it's it's not

complicated.

Just don't do it.

Yeah.

there's many occasions

that it's made my wife

rather uncomfortable

that I am vocal.

But you know, we've been

together long enough

that she knows who I am.

And you know, I found my

kids having some pretty,

some conversations.

I'm pretty proud of them.

Not about that, but just

about just the general sort

of principles of things.

How about your team?

Do they get upset with

anything you put out?

Yep.

actually choose my

team very carefully.

we have a strong

no dickheads

Yeah, the same policy as

what Hamish and I have.

Yeah, it's very, that's

actually in my introduction

file to anyone that

I want to work with.

We, it's literally

written, we have a