Gift biz unwrapped.
You're listening to our one-year anniversary edition episode 52.
They are not just buying your product.
They're actually buying you.
Hi, this is John Lee,
Dumas of entrepreneur on fire,
and you're listening to the gift of biz unwrap.
And now it's time to light it up.
Welcome to gift biz,
unwrapped your source for industry specific insights and advice to develop
and grow your business.
And now here's your host,
Sue Monheit.
Hi there.
I'm Sue and welcome to this unwrapped podcast.
Whether you own a brick and mortar store sell online or
are just getting started,
you'll discover new insight to gain traction and to grow your
business. I am so excited you guys,
because it was one year ago today that I started this
podcast. So super,
super special day in terms of the podcast.
And because of that,
I have a super,
super special guest.
Her name is Pam Newell,
Pam and her husband,
Tom started their gift basket business in 1979 out of their
house. In 1981,
they edit a retail location and in 1983 coffee house and
a bakery,
they continue to expand to four retail locations,
plus an assembly plant before selling in 2005.
But their journey wasn't over yet.
The sale of their business was a calculated step along the
way. Pam and Tom had continued to make a big impact
on the industry they own and host the national gift basket
rally where hundreds of gift providers unite to learn basics and
new techniques network with peers and shop for the latest products.
Pam also has been called upon by state farm insurance to
help new hires learn customer service and customer retention.
She, I know from personal experience has a wealth of knowledge
and I am so excited to dive into this today.
So all of you guys can hear from her,
everything that she knows about the industry.
Welcome to the show,
Pam, Thank you,
Sue. And congratulations on one year.
It's amazing.
I'm so proud of you.
Thank you.
I can't believe it's been a year already,
but these years keep going faster and faster.
I'm not sure what that's all about.
Well, I think that it's because we're both doing what we
love and we're helping people along the way.
So I think that that's so important.
I think you're right when the passion's there,
it doesn't feel like work,
right? It doesn't.
And hopefully time keeps moving on,
but hopefully my age and your age does not That program.
For sure.
Well, as our listeners know,
we like to align the conversation around the life of a
motivational candle.
The light shines on you,
Pam, while you share your stories and your experiences.
So are you ready to light up?
Oh, all right.
Describe to us what your motivational candle looks like.
What color is it and what quote would be on your
calendar? My candle would be made of natural wax.
It would be upscale filling with fragrance of warm fruit cobbler,
which would create a wonderful aroma in my home and office.
The color would be probably burnt orange because I'm really an
autumn person.
My candle would be hand poured,
long burning,
proudly made in the USA and shared by all my friends
and everyone.
I coach along the way that would say thousands of candles
can be lit from a single candle.
And the light of the candle will not be shortened.
Happiness, never decreases by being shared.
That would be a quote from Buddha,
which I'm not always a fan of Buddha,
but I love the quote.
There you go.
And since I know you,
I know that you apply this in your life,
but why don't you share with our listeners,
why this is an important quote for you?
Well, because I spend my day hoping that I can help
one or two people along the way with their success stories.
God has blessed Tom and I with so much,
and we hope that we can share that with others.
Wonderful. And you're doing that all the time already,
so, and we're going to dive into more of it,
right this second.
So are you ready?
I hope so.
You have no idea what I have planned for you.
Pretty scary.
All right.
So take us back because it's really interesting for all of
us to understand how people choose in the beginning,
what they're going to be spending so many hours of their
life on you started a gift basket business.
I did Y how Did that come about?
Where did that thought come from and talk us through the
story of how it evolved?
Well, in 1979,
I had two jobs.
I worked for roadway express as a payroll manager and with
the fear of being laid off,
I also sold real estate and we all know that between
October and the first spring,
there really isn't a need for a lot of houses to
be sold or marketed.
And so that was a downtime for me and Tom was
a contractor.
So not too many people wanted new kitchens or commercial work
done during that time.
And as you know,
we had three children,
small children,
and they all thought that they should have Christmas,
like all the other kids.
Now, why would they think that?
Yeah, that's all I can say.
Along the way.
My grandmother had always given us homemade baskets with her goodies
in because she didn't have a lot of money and she
had 24 grandchildren.
So I thought that was so marvelous that I would do
that. And I started a gift basket business slowly finding out
that my friends and my small business friends all wanted beautiful
baskets, lo and behold,
our house filled with packaged foods.
And I had no idea of course at that time,
how to buy wholesale.
So it was a learning proposition and it overtook our home.
However, our kids had Christmas in 19,
I think it was 1982.
Tom had a serious accident and they told him he was
actually bedridden for a year.
And he was told no more hammer needed a trade in
a pen.
And I had this great idea that we could go in
business together because at that point I had some commercial accounts
and, you know,
Tom, he said,
I will do it on one condition.
We add coffee,
we get a food license and we turn it into a
profitable situation or we don't do it.
So That's how the coffee house in bakery started.
It did.
It was because of him,
his love of coffee and the muffins and the cookies.
And we had some friends that just thought that was a
marvelous idea.
Even though our families did not loaning institutions did not.
And wholesalers did not.
So it was a struggle to get it started,
but we did.
And it was a struggle because you couldn't find funding or
you couldn't find product,
or what was the struggle all about?
Actually, it was all of the above and lo and behold,
we, we just kept pursuing this and went through a hardware
association to get some gift items and started out with nothing
but gift items.
Once we got the coffee house up and going,
then I added muffins and cookies and specialized in comfort baskets
for funerals hooked up with some funeral companies and grew it
from there.
Would I be correct in saying then,
because Tom had said,
we're turning this into something,
including products that I like.
And then we also are going to make money that it
took a couple of years for this whole thing to evolve,
where you were starting to see some return for your initial
investment. It actually took from took 16 months to turn it
into a profitable situation.
I had to big for the last few months so that
he would keep me open.
Tom is one of those people that every dollar counts.
And he made me turn from a hobby seasonal business to
an accountable,
profitable, trendy business.
And it was amazing.
The two of us have worked together for 35 years.
Now. We found each other's strengths and loves in this business
and continue to work together.
I wouldn't want another business partner or life partner in my
life because I think I've found the best.
Aw, that's sweet.
You're saying that because you know,
he's going to listen to this at some point,
right. And I'm saying it because it's true.
All right.
So now you have the coffee house and the bakery,
and then you ended up expanding into four retail locations.
We did.
How did you make those decisions to keep expanding and expanding?
Because each time you expand to another location,
you are at risk of diving into your margins and your
profit. Absolutely.
And it was almost like starting over every time you change
locations because people would come by that hadn't been there for
a while and say,
Oh, my,
they went out of business.
They're gone.
So it was marketing.
It was,
I hate to say this,
but keeping in their face,
it was networking.
It was going to the chamber functions.
It was keeping those ads running because back then we didn't
have the social media that we have today.
Right. It was growing that business.
So it meant me hitting the pavement and talking to those
businesses. I'm proud of what we did because it was not
only in their face,
but it was an item that they absolutely needed for their
businesses. And I would suggest gift biz listeners and Pam,
you can add to this if you'd like,
even though there wasn't social media in that day,
and now there is social media cannot be a crutch and
a substitute for going out.
If you have a logo,
a location,
a physical location,
where you're,
you are relying on the local community to come in and
visit your shop.
You can not just rely on social media.
It is one of a number of things to use,
to get people,
to walk into your location.
Like Pam's talking about,
you know,
with chamber of commerce meetings.
Now we have BNI tip all of these networking meetings that
we've talked about on other podcasts.
You cannot eliminate that face-to-face content and just rely on social
media. And I wanted to make sure to get that across.
What do you think about that,
Pam? I totally agree with you,
Sue and I can't be happier that you brought that up
in our situation.
And in most situations they are not just buying your product.
They're actually buying you.
My friends became my friends because they were my customers.
We cried with them.
We laughed with them.
We knew what their budgets were,
knew what their needs were.
And I think because I knew them on a personal basis
face to face,
I was able to not only grow my business,
but help them along The power of networking,
right. Comradery and peers and networking.
It is,
it absolutely is.
And I think today in a customer service way,
we kind of lose that personal touch if we're not careful.
So we need to have all of these opportunities working at
the same time.
Right? Well,
let's stay here right now and talk a little bit more
about the development and the evolution of your business.
Was there something that came up that just kind of knocked
you to your knees?
There was a problem that,
you know,
you might not have foreseen,
it just comes at you as will happen in any business.
Right? Absolutely.
Can you describe something like that and tell us all how
you were able to overcome a situation like that?
Well, every year we looked at our business and we would
say, how could we have grown more?
What could we have done differently to have maybe not turned
business away or not have the correct inventory?
So it was always something that we had to look at
on a weekly basis,
a monthly and a yearly,
you know,
a lot of people come to you and say,
wow, outgrowing your location or outgrowing your storage or running out
of inventory is a good problem to have,
I guess I just never liked that term because to me
it was not a good problem to have by adding the
assembly plant.
We thought we had conquered a lot of struggles.
We had a contract with Shire pharmaceutical,
and we sold over 12,000
products a month to them.
It was a great contract for three years.
We needed the extra space,
a 7,500
square foot assembly plant to just handle their needs as long
with our other 3,400
corporate accounts that we had gotten.
But then all of a sudden we found ourselves getting hit
with nine 11,
which when nine 11 hit all the big corporations,
all the pharmaceutical companies stopped doing what they were doing and
spending millions of dollars and cut back,
which made a big impact on us,
which suddenly fear took over my body and took over Tom's
body. We thought,
well, what could we do?
The first thing that came to mind is we had gotten
very lax on marketing for new clients because of the fact
we had more than we could handle.
So I suddenly had to put my thinking cap on,
go back out network to a different occupations,
to grow the business back up to the fact that we
were making the same kind of money to keep our 31
full-time employees with a paycheck every Friday.
So it was a challenge,
but we were able to conquer it with going back to
do things that we normally used to do when we began.
And that was called walking the streets and marketing.
I'm really glad you brought this up,
Pam, because what I'm taking from your story is that it's
so easy.
I mean,
you just heard Pam rattle off the number of clients she
had and some really big ones,
one overwhelmingly big one of course.
And it's very easy to become really comfortable in that manner.
I mean,
it's contracted business and everything is going along and you kind
of drift into this more maintenance stage because things are so
good, but you have to be careful.
And I want to just caution all gift biz listeners that,
you know,
if you are running your business off of one,
two, maybe even four large customers,
and that's it,
you are in a really risky situation because you lose a
couple of those and you may not even have your costs
covered anymore.
So you always,
always want to be fueling the funnel,
right? You always want to get more people into the funnel
and never become complacent,
just like how Pam is talking about.
And the other thing I really liked about what you talked
about Pam is once you recognize that this was happening,
how did you overcome it back to the basics?
Lots of prayer and lots of work.
Yeah. And feed on the street again and going out there
one more time and you didn't cave either.
No, that's not my way of doing business.
Thought about selling everything we owned,
but Yeah.
Are there any other takeaways that you would suggest or recommend
to our listeners?
Yeah. Make sure that you're hitting multiple occupations when you're selling,
because if you just streamline it to pharmaceutical sales,
which we had several large companies Shire being the largest one,
we could have really been in bigger trouble,
but I still had realtors.
I still had car dealers.
I still had spas and small manufacturing companies that needed us
on a daily basis for their employees needs and their clients.
So God took care of us that we were really lucky.
So really what you're saying is twofold have a customer base
that is smaller accounts to larger accounts.
And then also have a customer base that spans a number
of different types of industries.
Absolutely. And you may want to broaden to not just in
case we didn't do just gift baskets.
We also were teaching around the country.
You know,
we had a little bit of versatility in our income.
So you may want to think about that.
Yeah. We're going to get to that too,
but I don't want to leave here without asking you one
question. I want to stay on the gift baskets and the
retail shop.
Although I know it wasn't just gift baskets.
Okay. So offered St.
Anne Anne here,
was there a certain promotion or something that you guys did
that you always knew when we did this type of thing,
it's going to bring in sales,
we're going to see a lift.
Yeah. We had one particular situation.
We had moved into a brand new,
small flat building right across the street from the largest hospital
in town thinking,
Oh, that would be a great area for us.
So we opened up this small retail location near Allman hospital
and a client call because they were supposed to pick up
three baskets and they kept calling and saying,
we're driving up and down the street and we can't find
you. Well,
Tom said,
I told you the sign was too small,
but the township wouldn't let me make it any larger.
He quickly called an inflatable balloon company.
And the next day they delivered to my surprise,
a 30 foot Panda holding a gift basket.
And he had it put on the roof.
It suddenly took me jumping through hoops to get a permit
and additional insurance,
because if it collapsed,
it would close down the whole highway.
And he said,
no customer will ever call us and tell us that they
can't find us through this Christmas holiday,
I guess not.
Well, all seven floors of Aultman hospital.
If you looked out the window on the West side,
you could see this Panda bear.
So I quickly called the local newspaper and said,
I didn't give them my name.
They didn't ask for it.
But I said,
I can't believe it.
I just drove down West Tuscan.
So the biggest Teddy bear I've ever seen holding a gift
basket across from Aultman hospital.
And you really need to take a look at this.
Well, a reporter did,
he came down and he took pictures and we were on
the front page the next day.
And lo and behold,
we got 13 new businesses out of that Panda bear.
Wow. So only because it was a promotion that Tom had
put in place so that people could actually find us because
it was a new location.
It ended up being one of the best promotions we had
ever put together.
Wow. Because of the additional visibility and the PR you drove
to the store.
Absolutely. And that ad I couldn't have paid for in any
way. That was,
That is amazing.
I have not heard that story before.
So I'm loving that.
So I'm going to go back again to 1979 and there
probably weren't a lot of resources for you to figure out
how to do a gift basket business.
And I'm curious is that why?
And I don't even know in 2005,
I think there were,
but not as much,
but how did the whole,
it used to not be the gift basket rally.
It used to be the gift basket conference or convention.
It was actually Debbie Pawlik put it together and it was
called Jubilee and it was a gift basket gathering.
And we went there in 1993 with an invitation from her.
You went there to show,
to teach too.
Actually it was to go as an attendee.
And she asked us to bring along a corporate basket because
she had read about us somewhere and ask us to bring
a basket along for the competition.
Well, we did,
it was in Chicago and all of a sudden people were
amazed that you could put fresh muffins,
coffee, tea,
and candy in a corporate gift basket and sell it after
winning the competitions for corporate design.
She asked Tom because he was the first man to ever
win a gift basket competition.
She asked him to teach the following year in Las Vegas.
So we stayed on her teaching staff as a working couple
until she ended her career right after that Sherry rager,
which we taught for,
began with basket connection for a couple of years.
And then it kind of died.
So we started the national gift basket convention at that point
in 2008,
hoping to unify the industry.
And at this convention,
I know that there are a lot of established gift basket
businesses and not just gift baskets,
other types of businesses within the gifting industry,
let's say,
and you are doing this now to this day.
What are you seeing from the attendees?
What are the things that they're needing?
And the reason I ask this question,
just to outline it a little bit more and to bracket
it is I'm trying to get at what types of things
are you seeing?
Let's say we have some listeners who are just starting a
business. What types of things are you seeing that they are
calming and needing from you that our listeners should be considering
as they're starting their businesses too?
Probably The very first one is they don't know inventory to
order. And if they kind of use a simple mathematics,
which we try to point out to them,
weigh their stuffing,
weigh it with their hand and see how many handfuls to
fill their basket.
And then they would be able to know how much is
in a 10 pound box.
I personally can fill 168 inch round baskets out of a
10 pound box.
And I don't think that they have been educated in knowing
how to order inventory or priced their designs.
And I think that that's a really big part of our
business starting out is making sure that you are not giving
the customer the gifts for free.
You want to make a profit or you're not going to
be able to stay in business.
I think that that's a big problem in today's world.
This Has come up before.
And I think whether it's gift baskets or you're a jewelry
designer, or you make cupcakes,
we got into this conversation,
a podcast a little while back with soap,
making that if you are producing your product,
it's not just the actual product that is going into whatever
you're creating,
whether it's the beads or,
or all of that.
And in this case,
what Pam's talking about is the stuffing.
It's so easy to overlook some of those little extra things
and the time that it takes you to put these things
together. So pricing is all important for sure.
We're not going to belabor that too much here,
but I like what Pam's talking about in terms of,
you know,
these are two things when you're starting a business inventory and
pricing that you really want to pay attention to and get
some guidance about for your particular industry,
what would you say?
You know,
you were talking about all the inventory that you ended up
having to have on hand with the bigger businesses and as
your business was at its peak inventory in the gift basket
business is It is.
So you have to be very,
very careful in how you order and seasonal.
Our first couple years,
my son Ben said that he was the green dumpster because
anytime it expired,
he had to eat it.
Oh, darn.
So that became a very costly situation.
So you don't want that.
You want to make sure that you can use your item
and multiple applications or don't buy it unless it's a particular
item that the corporations need and they are willing to pay
for them by the case.
Right. And,
you know,
especially as you're starting out in terms of seasonal type things,
and it's perishable,
it's one thing if it's not perishable and it's going to
be an inventory item,
you still don't want to lie because it's good.
Might sit on the shelf until the very next season.
But there's other ways of customizing and making things look seasonal,
for example,
just so that all of our listeners can relate.
Let's talk about a necklace.
I guess it can be a beautiful necklace,
but you package it in red and green.
If it's Christmas or silver and blue,
if it Tanika and it can still be seasonally themed,
but your actual product,
your cost is way less.
If you're going to have to keep it around for another
year. So again,
things to think about,
especially when you're starting out,
when the dollars are really precious dollars are precious throughout,
always in business,
of course,
but you know,
there are so many things with a startup inventory is just
one big cost.
So something to think about as you're getting started,
absolutely. I want to move now into our reflection section.
This is a look at you,
Pam, and what's made you successful along the way.
What is one natural trait that you have that you think
has helped you to succeed?
I think it might be my love for others.
And my grandpa told me when I was two years old,
get really far in life.
If you just learn to smile and to help others.
And I think that that's really,
really important.
I strive to be honest and give the customers more than
what they asked for and I care and I want to
hear their success stories.
So I think that maybe it all goes back to again,
my love for other people.
Well, and then you're very authentic too.
You're not just looking to get a dollar out of somebody.
Now. God took care of us.
When we sold our businesses,
we didn't know they were for sale and customer convinced us
that they were for sale.
And that allowed us to live comfortably,
help build a church and help as many people as we
can achieve their dreams.
And I kind of think that that's important in life.
Agreed, but now,
Pam, I'm not going to let that story just pass.
Can you shorten it up and just give us a small
version of what the heck happened and how someone decided they
were going to buy your business,
even though you weren't looking to sell A customer,
came in and said,
I really love what you do.
And I want to do it too.
And I've tried to get other businesses to help me start
my business.
And they all say they buy from you.
So I just need to purchase your business.
And this is what I want out of life.
And I said,
it's really not for sale.
And after about three months of this nonsense,
what I called it and the,
I went to our attorney and he's a good friend.
And I said,
this is what's happening.
And this time she had her attorney drop off a contract,
Oh, she was serious.
She was very serious.
And at this point he looked at me and he said,
there's two reasons to start a business.
Pam one is to pass it on to your family as
a legacy and watch it grow.
I know your three children,
they're tired and they don't want it.
They've got other dreams.
The other is to sell it at a profit and figure
out what you want to do with the rest of your
life. And I'm telling you,
this is a really good offer.
Take it to the accountant and see what she says.
So we did and true stories.
She said,
why in the heck,
didn't you sign this awhile ago?
And Tom said,
well, we're going to pray about it.
We went into church and the minister stopped before the service
put his hand on Tom's shoulder and said,
Tom, I had a vision last night.
I don't know what it means.
We were standing on a Hill.
You and I,
and we were with a surveyor and I want to go
to lunch and try to figure out what this vision is.
Tom looked at me and said,
I believe that we should sell it.
I think so.
I don't think you need a more,
a bigger sign than that.
The church was built.
Oh wow.
We, you know,
we're fortunate enough to be able to help a congregation that
we loved and our family and grow in a different aspect
of the business.
We were already teaching.
We were on the staff at fancy food and world tea
expo and 19 gift marts across the country,
Jamaica national farmers association.
And Tom said,
let's just expand on that.
And that's what we did.
Wow. Now give biz listeners.
I just want to make sure that you got what we
just heard here.
They started a gift basket business.
It grew,
as we've already heard when they sold it,
they were able to build a church and have a nice
nest egg for their future,
even though they decided to continue working.
So I want you guys all to think for yourself.
If there's something that you're looking at doing,
no matter how small,
maybe it's a jewelry company,
maybe it's a bakery.
Maybe it's a gift basket business.
Look at what Pam and Tom were able to accomplish.
None of your ideas,
if you have this type of passion is too small.
So that was,
I'm so glad we stopped Pam and went through that.
So, so glad it was a huge point.
Those are things we don't always share while You're gonna share
it with me.
And as you know,
our children grew up in our business.
Our grandchildren grew up in our business and they're still,
God loved them.
They still come forward to help with our rallies and our
conventions today.
I couldn't do without any of them.
They're awesome.
They truly know every aspect of our company and because of
the gift basket business that people didn't think was a real
occupation back in the seventies,
they have lived a comfortable life and love what they have
become. Absolutely.
All right.
So we're going to move on.
What tool do you use regularly to help you keep productive
or to create some type of balance in your life?
Well, that,
one's a little surprising because the best tool that I have
is probably my friends,
because I find that I don't need to know everything I
can call up on my friends to help me.
I knew nothing about Skype.
Thank you,
Sue. We're recording On Skype for anyone who doesn't get that.
I surround myself with friends that have the knowledge that maybe
I don't have.
And I love being able to network within my own friends.
And of course our teaching staff is amazing.
The apps that I use mostly on my phone would be
my wonder list and my photo grid.
I know Wonderlust,
what's what what's PhotoGrid Photo grid.
I can take all of my pictures and it just magically
makes them into a collage.
And I use it all the time for posting pictures of
people at the rally.
And I love it.
What book have you read lately?
They do you think our customers would find value in Number
one? It's the purpose driven life by Rick Warren?
What on earth am I here for?
Our Bible group is actually working on that right now.
This is the second time we've used Rick Warren and I
find every day something that I can apply to my life.
So it's very important.
Wonderful. And give biz listeners just as you're listening to the
podcast today,
you can also listen to audio books with ease.
I've teamed up with audible so you can get an audio
book, just like the purpose driven life for free.
All you need to do is go to gift business book
that com and make a selection.
That's gift biz,
book.com. All right,
Pam, we're going to put on our show notes page,
all of the contact information.
So there'll be information on your Facebook group,
social media,
all of that.
We're also going to link up information to the rally so
that people,
if anyone's in the gifting or gift basket business,
and you want to know more about the rally,
which is the conference that Pam and Tom put on,
we'll have that information there.
But if there were one or two sites for those folks
who are not near a computer right now,
they're walking their dog,
they're doing laundry.
They're in the shop,
straightening up stocks,
something like that.
Where would you suggest they go to learn more about you?
Probably gift basket,
school.com. That's probably the easiest to remember.
Okay. And a lot of things linked right into that site,
right? It does ultimate gift show links into their national gift
basket convention lists into there and a gift basket professional.
Okay. Now PM,
I'm going to invite you to dare to dream.
I'd like to present you with a virtual gift.
It's a magical box containing unlimited possibilities for your future.
This is your dream or your goal of almost unreachable Heights.
And remember I'm saying unreachable Heights that you would wish to
obtain. Please accept this gift and open it in our presence.
What is inside your box?
First of all,
you just gave me cold chills.
My box would contain pixie dust.
Okay. Pixie dust that I would probably sprinkle on every gift
provider in the universe to reach out to them,
to let them know that I'm here and at their service,
the larger the group at our rally,
the more people that I can reach out to on a
one-to-one basis,
that would probably make me the happiest person in the world.
So I guess my box would be full of pixie dust.
I have to tell you,
I thought you might change the box into a basket.
So I guess I,
I thought about that to begin with,
however, You didn't want the pixie dust to escape until I
could find the right piece.
Absolutely. I'm with you on that.
Oh my gosh.
Well gift biz listeners,
and we have learned so much from Pam today and I,
since I,
you obviously can tell,
I know Pam personally,
and I can tell you that I have not met a
more generous and truly passionate person in terms of when she
talks about paying it forward and helping everybody else as she's
going to sprinkle that little pixie dust all over the place.
It is absolutely true.
And Pam,
I'm not sure what color that pixie dust is.
Sparkle. You know that well,
I'm sure it will.
And I just want to throw some back on you because
you have just offered us so much valuable today.
I appreciate your taking the time we kind of put this
together a little bit quickly because I really,
really wanted her to be the guest for this very special
episode of gift biz on wrapped.
So thank you,
Pam. I so appreciate it.
And may your candle always burn bright thing?
We love you Learn How to work smarter while developing and
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Download our guide called 25 free tools to enhance your business
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It's our gift to you and available at gift biz,
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the next step.
So today's show is sponsored by the ribbon print company,
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