In today's episode, we're welcoming back a returning guest. So today we've got San Harper from the Guild of Mindful Driver Trainers on. So welcome back, San.

you, Tracy. Thanks for inviting me. Good to see you both. We'll

So, Sam, we heard you talking about. A subject that we thought would be brilliant to get you on and we thought our listeners would find really helpful. And that was talking about your alter ego. So, can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Yeah, I think one of the first places I heard about it was I was reading something about Beyonce and that she has this alter ego called Sasha Fierce and when she's Sasha Fierce, she's all dressed up, she's got the heels and the outfit and she goes on and she can really perform. She's got that sassy, I guess it's just having that X factor that maybe on some days for whatever reason, perhaps she just finds it hard to access that. So that's what she does. She has this alter ego. And I just thought, wow, that's fascinating. And it kind of dawns on me that I suppose when you think about it, we're all multifaceted. Like we often we think of ourselves as our true selves as being quite set as one thing. But when you think about it, like if you go to a funeral, you're one version of yourself. If you go to like a party, you're another version of yourself. So we kind of have all these hats. I won't call, I won't say masks, because it sounds like it's a fakeness. And I don't think it's a fakeness. I think it's about tapping into whatever part of ourselves we kind of need for any given situation. I knew that can vary because lives are complicated and varied. And I think we've, we've got more access to different elements of ourselves, some more helpful than others, than we maybe realise. Yeah. Yeah.

I think that's, it really resonates with me. I, I did drama at school. Not because I wanted to be a budding entertainer or anything. And I used that extensively. So I remember going for my very first job interview and standing outside and thinking, okay, Who do I want to be in this job interview and sort of really thinking about it and certainly in other jobs that I've done, I've had certain clothes that I've worn for certain tasks, perhaps if I'm interviewing somebody or got a meeting with somebody. So that idea of, I've never thought of it as an alter ego, but certainly putting on certain. Clothes, or, and we swap hats all the time. That's a phrase we use all the time, isn't it Kev? We're constantly swapping our hat from podcaster, driving instructor, grandparent, parent, all the time.

Yeah. It's funny because this is a funny thing. I actually used it to myself many years ago without even considering the word alter ego or what it, what it meant. and the reason I did, I actually, believe it or not, I used to have a motorway phobia and here I am now, I'm driving, you know, 20 years later, driving instructor, but I had this motorway phobia and I remember sort of thinking, I've got a friend who's a really confident driver. And, uh, I remember thinking, you know, she's really confident, like the way she is in the car, kind of, she'll sort of sit and she's got her hand up here and like her, her posture and her demeanor and kind of like almost wishing that I could be more like that. What, you know, I have this bit of a, this strange problem. with the motorway. I kind of have these moments where I feel a little bit giddy, a bit light headed, panic attacks, I guess. I don't know what provoked it. And I remember thinking, I wish I could be a bit more like my friend. and I kind of would just imagine, you know, what it might be like to sort of adopt her posture and, you know, sort of hand be up on the wheel and just imagine I was her. And I suppose for me, because I implemented that into my own life, and it really helped and obviously having subsequently learned about mindfulness, you know, and, and new techniques that we can bring, from that as well, those things combined, I found really, really helpful. And the funny thing is I, it kind of actually came back to revisit me. Not that long ago, I was coming back from Mindfulness UK, funnily enough, randomly years later on the motorway. And I could feel. This anxiety building up again. I thought, my goodness, I thought I was totally over this. What's this all about? But this time, I had the tools. To deal with it. And I was perfectly fine. I was just with the breath, breathing into the abdomen, and then I was kind of able to kind of, you know, adopt this kind of, I'm a driving instructor, you know, I'm all right, I teach people to do this, and I was fine. And I'm fine. You know, I go on the motorway all the time. And it's not a thing. But yeah, it's really interesting, isn't it? These things happen.

popped into my head. and then suppose it's very similar to what you've just mentioned there, but could you use it in a similar sort of way if you was able to drive before? So, you know, that younger person of you, I'm saying you, but I mean, anyone that's listening. And used to be able to do something, and now for some reason that you can't, you can then just get into your younger self when you could do something. Is that what we're saying? Is it a similar sort of

I think it's really anything you want it to be. So I think some people it's tapping into a version of themselves. Absolutely. An element of themselves that may be, it's an interesting one actually, is I talk to people about what they do for a job and some people are really confident in certain elements of their job. And they talk about what they're like, how they communicate, how that shows up in that context. And it's like, wow, wouldn't it be interesting if you could bring that to this? So it's like it's there, they've already got it, it's part of them, but how can we bring it to this? Or, it might be completely separate, like Sasha Fierce. It might be, well, who do you know? Who do you know that is pretty confident in this area? You know, what would it, what are they like? Um, how, how do you think they're feeling when they do this? And what does it look like? How do they, so you could maybe kind of put on, a different hat. Even like a, a superhero. You could make up something, couldn't you? Obviously Batman or, you make one up for yourself, really. I'm just talking about having a little bit of fun and just thinking, well, how can I get out of my own way? Basically, it's that, isn't it? It's how can I get out of my own way? Like I'm in my way. That's what it is, isn't it?

Now that's just reminded me, there is a piece of research called, What Would Batman Do? And it's all around that coming up with ideas, making decisions. And it's a piece of research that was done with school children. So they could choose. So while the piece of research is called, what would Batman do? They were able to choose their own. superhero who resonated with them. And so when they are in school, and this is primary school children, it was young children. And so when it came to problem solving, if they got stuck, they were asked what would Batman do. And then suddenly they were able to come up with problem solving ideas, solutions, and act them out with more confidence. So there is a whole piece of research around this.

Yeah, yeah, that's it. That's the thing, isn't it? It's been able to sort of step out of our own egoic mind, the stories, the conditioning, you know, that we develop. Even as young children, we get into certain habits, I guess, from quite a young age, and it does become a habit, and then we, the stories we tell ourselves, and I suppose it's been able to just step out of that. But it's amazing how powerful it can be. Even though we know it's a pretend, we know it's not real. We know we're not really Batman. Well, obviously I am what I want to be, but know, that woman, I should say. But, um, you know, we know it's not real, but it's kind of, it's amazing how the mind, it's like, it's an amazing tool, isn't it? But it either works with us or it works against us. So I suppose it's finding a way to kind of make it work with us, you know, for us. Yeah.

I what? You know, as you do what I do, we look at people as well, don't we? And it was really interesting, and it's a shame when you don't video these podcasts, but in that moment when you said, I'm Batman you, you even took on that perspective of a smiley face. And it is, it changes, doesn't it? You, you know, the whole persona just changes.

it's so true, you know, and I do this a lot, I say a lot, actually it is, I mean, over the years, I suppose I do do it a fair amount, not with everybody, everyone's different, some people are a bit more comfortable with this idea, of, this alter ego idea, I suppose, it is amazing watching people, I can almost see that energy shift. Something physically changes. It's quite fascinating actually. I had one lad, quite a long time ago, and he used to pretend to be his mum. And the only reason that was is because she was very confident with roundabouts. Because we had the conversation, who do you know? That's really confident with roundabouts. He said, oh, my mum, what's her name? That's fine. Let's just pretend we're in a film. Let's pretend you're your mum. You know, let's just pretend what that might be like. We're playing a part, and you could just see his whole kind of vibe, his whole energy just shifted. It was quite amazing. And it really did help. And it does. And this is why I suppose I often will suggest. Do you want to try something a bit out there? A little bit, a bit different. I mean, I'm lucky. The majority of my pupils are very, I mean, they kind of know what I'm like, I suppose. They're like, oh, here she goes again. You know, with her sort of, uh, out of the box ideas, And they're quite up for it normally. And you can have a little bit of fun. I got this one lad, a little while ago, and he made up a character, and the character was called Dave. So I'm like, what would Dave do? A bit like Batman. What would Dave do? Dave's not worried about that. Dave's been driving for years. You know, we made it that he was a certain age and a certain experience and got really into it. And I think he actually said to me he'd used it at work, when he was in a situation where something was bothering him. He's like, oh, I just thought, you know, I'll be a bit more Dave today. But it can be, Yeah,

This is like transferable skills, isn't it? You know, it's a technique. You said you used it on the motorway when you felt worse. Where's this coming from? But you had a skill to a technique to be able to use and use again, and you can use it in different areas of your life, not just driving. It's any area, isn't it? Yeah,

Yeah, that's it. It's just reframing, I suppose, isn't it? Because we do, we have, we live in our own version of reality. As I said last night, I saw you guys last night, didn't I? Because I was talking, about, you know, perceptions and how we perceive things and how we perceive ourselves. And if we tell ourselves that story, enough, we start to believe it. I can't do this. Roundabouts are really difficult. I'm really scared of the motorway. And it's a self fulfilling prophecy. And then we just kind of get caught, don't we, in this story? So I suppose it's, by doing this idea of an alter ego, we start to be able to change the story. And I suppose it's a process, we could start with maybe thinking, well, what is my, what's my aim? What am I trying to actually achieve? What would I like? You know, how would I like to be able to deal with this situation? What skills would enable me to be better at this? So we could think about those skills and how might that show up? where does that show up in my life already? And if it doesn't, well, who do I know where it does? And what does it look like? How does that fit. And then I, I guess it's just kind of like, yeah, acting a part, playing a role, really. It's just this, it's just this getting out of our way, isn't it?

yeah, definitely. Because when you think about it, what happens if you're telling yourself those stories, I'm scared of this, I can't do this, and then you act on those thoughts. See you. don't do whatever it is, then you're reinforcing the belief, that belief that I can't do this, I can't do that. So by thinking what would confident me do, or if confident me is, is. Too difficult to access than somebody else. As soon as you do that, and you act that out, what you're doing is you're breaking the cycle, but then you're beginning to build a strategy evidence that that strategy. works. And then you're starting to rewire the brain. So actually, I can do that junction or I can do that roundabout because I've got the evidence that that's my strategy. That worked. I did it. I'm now rewiring my brain.

Yeah. Yeah, and we've all heard of that phrase as well, fake it till you make it. And that's another thing I say to them, fake it till you make it, you may not even really believe it, you don't have to, actually, because your subconscious doesn't really know the difference. That's the interesting thing as well, your subconscious is kind of reacting in this different way. So you can fake it till you make it, and over time, you can either enhance that part of yourself that's already there, and grow and cultivate it. Or, you might find that the qualities that you'd like to bring in from, you know, a pretend made up person, they start to, it's like sowing a seed, isn't it? You're planting this seed, and then you're cultivating, you're germinating something within yourself that actually eventually might become true for you, so actually you may become a bit more Like Batman, if you start running around in a bat cloak and saying things like, uh, you've got to go and solve this Robin, things like that. But you know, eventually, you know, I guess you would maybe start to show, see that showing up a little bit in, in, uh, in a normal, without, without any conscious thought. It just becomes part of who you are, I suppose. It sort of maybe embeds itself a bit more. I don't know

Yeah, I think that's quite, that's quite important, isn't it? That reflecting afterwards to acknowledge that that is a part of you. So it's not that you can only drive if you can access your alter ego. So we don't want people to then go, I can't drive because my alter ego isn't around today. But that's sort of like using that if it's helpful and also acknowledging that actually this is just a part of me. Mm

Yeah, that's it. Yeah, and the mind is, it's a bit like, like you just said, um, with this idea of growing these neural pathways because that story we tell ourselves, it sort of beds in and then we just get stuck, don't we? It's like a, it's like an electrical circuit. So I suppose when you do this idea of Sasha Fierce or whatever, when Beyonce goes and she kind of goes into this personality, it's like a circuit breaker. It's like turning that, that current off that's not helpful. I'm firing up something else that, that is. Yeah.

Gee, I love it all. I love it. I think it, I love the fun aspect and I think that's part of it, isn't it? You know? And it's, it's part of let's try something. If it works, fantastic. If it doesn't, we haven't actually lost anything, but we've had a little bit of fun in the meantime.

Mmm. Do you know something that's just come to mind as well? This can also help, I think, when things that show up that are really unhelpful, that idea of dissociation, um, even naming, they say if you can name it, you can tame it, but naming that part of yourself that isn't helpful and also being able to step back from that too. And I, it's really funny because I know if I'm having a bit of a day and I'm a bit gnarky or whatever. I might say things like, all right, Smeagol, you know, from Lord of the Rings. I was saying to Terry Cook about this, he thought it was hilarious. Like, you know, you know, like Gollum on Lord of the Rings. you know, sometimes we, we can have these, these personas that, that aren't helpful and it's been able to recognize that it's not, it's just a part of us. It's not who we are completely. All of these things were all multifaceted, the good stuff and the not so good stuff. But it's understanding that when we step back, we can see it a bit more clearly. And we've probably got a little bit more choice over, over what we kind of develop. You know, if I'm being a bit smeagol, I might notice I'm being a bit smeagol. I think, right, I'm going to go and, I don't know, go and do a dance or something and not, not be quite so grumpy. I don't know why that came to mind, do a dance. It's not something I normally would just do, but you know what I mean.

normally go and jump in the, jump in the very Cold River,

Yes, I'm going on, yeah, I'm going on Sunday, and it's meant to be absolutely freezing, but yeah, that's something I do, yeah, to do.

And this is the joy of mindfulness. This is one of the real benefits of practicing mindfulness, is that being able to take that step back, being able to observe your thoughts, your feelings, how they're impacting you, and being able to Notice them, just acknowledge them, rather than getting caught up in that hamster wheel in your head. So, it comes back full cycle to these are the benefits of mindfulness. Mmm.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, it is. And one of the things, one of the acronyms I used last night, which I find really helpful, is that fear, false evidence, appearing real. And exactly, being able to step back and, and recognise this is the story. I'm doing it again. I'm telling myself whatever it is. I'm telling myself that story. And, yeah, and nothing's permanent. It's interesting to understand. Well, that might be my story now. It doesn't have to be like that forever. Maybe that story will change. You know, maybe I could get to a place where I might not say things like, roundabouts are terrifying and I hate roundabouts. I might sort of say, actually maybe roundabouts aren't quite so bad. I feel a bit better about them now. It's learning that you can open a new doorway, and it doesn't have to be like that all the time. Things change, don't they? And I'm, I'm living proof. You know, I'm, I'm living proof. I mean, I used to have a motorway phobia, and here I am now, I'm a driving instructor, and I go on the motorway, trying to help people overcome their own. Difficulties, you know, so it does change, but can change.

part of that lived experience that you can then reflect back on and go, done it before, done it, this is happening, isn't it? And I can now, I can now change. I have that choice, don't we? We have that choice.

Yeah, that's

It's making me think that some people may also be stuck in an old story. So that change may have already happened, but the story has been with them for so long that they're still set bringing out the old story of, I don't like this and I don't like that. When actually the reality, when they reflect on it is, well, I say I don't like it, but I do them perfectly well and I do them all the time and maybe it's time I updated my story and brought it a bit up to date with where I am today instead of still carrying around this old story from a few years ago.

Absolutely. Yeah, and like you say about having fun with it, I mean, I make my pupils laugh because I'll say, they'll say things like, I don't know why I've got roundabouts in my mind today, but, you know, we get that, oh, I hate this roundabout, I hate this road, I hate this roundabout. And I say, no, we've got to, we can change it to, I love this roundabout. Oh my goodness, it's my favorite roundabout. And they laugh, you know, and then they say it. And it's, even though they don't really believe it, it's just changing, it's just switching things out. It's just getting rid of that old, tired story that's just not serving them. You know, and they laugh, and then it kind of just lightens things up a little bit. But yeah, it's that idea of fake it till you make it, and understanding that nothing's permanent, things change. And we can change and what we, what we keep feeding into that story is what we're going to, is going to be our lived experience, ultimately, so that we can, either access something in ourselves, or if that's going to be difficult, we can have a bit of fun making something up.

think for me, I'd love hearing people, when they make that, that alter ego, that superhero, that made up person, I'd love hearing that because it comes from them, doesn't it? And it's like, I could tell you, but if you do it yourself, you know, you've stepped away, you've come out, you've thought about it and gone, yeah, this person, this person, Dave Frog, you know? And I'm, I'm so curious then, what, what's Dave look like? I want a picture of him. It just opens up so much, doesn't it?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely does. Yeah. Yeah, enables them to sort of be a bit playful with it. You know, it starts to become, as you know, you know, it's, uh, with mindfulness, it's that bringing that attitude of curiosity. Non judging. Well, I could be curious about this. What might it be like? What might that actually look like? Um, how might that be? Rather than just staying with what we think we know.

Yep.

Yeah, I do, I do too. I find it, I find it fascinating. And like I say, it's, it does kind of make me smile. Some of the peoples when I suggest it, about maybe trying something, a little bit different. And they're like, oh yeah, yeah, okay, I'll give it a try. And I say, right, okay. And we sort of go into it, and it really surprises me. It shouldn't do by now, should it? But I'm just like, wow, you know, goodness me. What a difference.

Yeah.

it can really be like night and day. Not always, but sometimes it really, when they're stuck, you know, they're really stuck on something and they cannot shift past it because of this This mental narrative. Yeah, the results were just like, goodness me, quite powerful.

I think it's because there's no rules on this, is there, you know, that alter, alter ego. There is no rules. Mm.

you're so right, and I think with a lot of things there's no rules. As ADIs, I think sometimes, I mean, we've been doing this a long time, and I do appreciate there's people probably newer to the industry, and they think it's very much like, You know, there's certain things we've got to kind of get across, of course, you know, they need to be safe, confident drivers, but you can be playful, you can have fun, you can explore things that float your own boat. There's so many things you can do just to kind of make life a bit more interesting apart from anything else. You know, different things you can suggest to them. I mean, I was saying to, on the thing last night, I actually move. Some of my pupils like to physically get out of the car and stretch. So, you know, there's lots of different things you can do. The alter ego idea is one. Mindfulness, obviously, integrating that into our lives, into our work. Some people are really into, aromatherapy. You know, there's, there's lots of different modalities, isn't there, that you can integrate into your work. Anything that you find resonates. I guess it's just about exploring that, and then just trying to find ways where you can Bring it in. People that are receptive to it.

Oh, well, I do hope that that's given some of our listeners a few ideas have a go. Think about who would be your role model or what would confident you look like and give it a go. Give it a try and see whether that might work for you. I've loved it. My curious mind goes. I'd love to hear what people come up with. I just, I'm so curious to find out what they do. Yeah, so let us know. Sam, before we do the thank you and let you go, you don't just do mindfulness for driving instructors. You also run some online eight week mindfulness courses now and again, don't you? So have you got any of those coming up at the moment that people can

we're, well, we're hoping, there's a thing called the Compassionate Mindful Resilience Programme. I'm hoping to get, uh, one of those up pretty soon. It's a four week course, and it's the people that support other people. There is the MBSR, Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction, that's going to be running. There will be another one at some point. But yeah, really, I mean, I, I love to tailor mindfulness. into all sorts of things. I've been doing a little bit of work with a company recently. and it's just bringing this, it's this meeting of the driver development with mindfulness skills. It's so, as you guys know, it's just, it's just such a good fit, isn't it? So yeah, anything to do with that is, is totally my, my bag and I'm actually rebranding. I So, um, hopefully that'll make it easier.

Brilliant. So where can people find you at the moment?

Right now it's guild of mine for driver trainers. I'm on Facebook. So that's probably the best port of call right now. But, and I'll post on there. You can all send me a message or, send me a WhatsApp. You can find me if you Google me, San Harper. you'll be able to find me. So happy to answer any questions or help in any way with anything, driver mindfulness related stuff. Yeah.

And when you rebrand, if you change your links and things like that, just let us know and we will make sure that we keep the show notes updated with any new links for you or any additional links for you so that people can find you easily.

Wonderful. Thank you.

thank you Sam. Thank you for coming on.

Yeah. Thanks for having me guys. Good to see you both. Yeah. Really good. Really good to chat with you both today.