Title IX is 37 words. Talk

to us.

Uh, so part of my, my role at ESPN and one of the Women's Sports Foundation is educating people about what Title IX is. Basically, um, equal rights for all on campus of any campus receiving federal funds. You can't discriminate, discriminate against their sex, their gender. So, uh, yeah, I worked on the 30th anniversary, 35th, 40th, 40th. And so this was the 50th and we did a four part series on the 37 words.

We'll discuss race and how it plays a factor and how we didn't even talk about this topic because we were afraid. A black.

We are coming to you live from the new BEP studio for another thought provoking episode of a black executive perspective podcast. We talk about race, culture, and those uncomfortable topics that people tend to avoid. I'm your host, Tony tidbit. So before we get started in a very fantastic episode, I want to remind everyone to check out our partners at CodeM Magazine. CodeM Magazine, which mission is to save the black family by first saving the black man, check them out at CodeMMagazine. com. That is CodeMMagazine. com. So today we are joined by Carol Stiff, a powerhouse in women's sports media to discuss her journey through corporate America, the challenges she faced and the lessons learned along the way. Carol will share her unfiltered perspective on navigating a male dominated industry, standing firm on principles while advancing women's sports and the reality of being pushed out. After decades of commitment. Let me tell you a little bit about Carol. Carol Stiff is a nationally recognized sports executive and a driving force behind the growth of women's sports. During her 31 year career at ESPN, she spearheaded programming for NA NCAA women's basketball, the WNBA and multiple, multiple collegiate championships across ESPN networks. A woman basketball hall of fame inductee. My girl, I love it. We want to learn more about that. She received a prestigious honors, including the John Bunn award from the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame and the Edward R. Murrow award for her sports reporting. Since retiring from ESPN in 2021, Carol has continued her mission as president of the Women's Sports Network and founder of Stiff Sports Media Consulting LLC, advising brands on advancing women's sports. She also served as the executive producer for ESPN 30. For 30 documentaries dream on and the Emmy winning 37 words beyond our media work. Carol is deeply involved in advocacy serving on boards of the Women's Sports Foundation and the Woman's Basketball Hall of Fame and the Pat Summit Foundation Fund as well. A former college basketball coach and student athlete. She remains a leading voice in the fight for equity in sports, Carol Stiff, my sister, welcome to a black executive perspective podcast. Thrilled to be here. Thanks for having me. Oh my God. I mean, look at the end of the day, as I was going through your bio, the only thing missing is they gave you land and title. All right. Very lustrous. Oh my God. You've done a lot of great things. So I can't wait till we can dive in and learn more. But before we go there, tell us a little bit, where are you currently residing? And tell us a little bit about your family.

Sure. I'm presently living in Farmington, Connecticut, which was 10 miles from ESPN campus. Um, I'm staying there, although the anchor of the women's sports network is in LA. Uh, decided to stay back here in cold Connecticut. Um, I have two children, uh, both are adults now, both out of college, no more tuition payments. Um, one's in bank financing and decides who gets, uh, who gets loans and who doesn't out in Torrey Pines, uh, California. And my other, my other child's a woman, a young woman who just got a special ed job teaching bilingual special ed to, uh, three and four year olds.

Wow. So that's impressive. Plus that takes a lot of patience as well. I could imagine. She's

very

patient. Did she get that from her mother?

No, no, no. I don't know where she got that. Well, that's

awesome. So listen, you know, just going through your bio, you. Have a list. I mean, you've been everywhere. You've been on major platforms. You're a basketball hall and fame inductee. Um, you've done many different type of, um, interviews and, and, and obviously, uh, executive producer of 30 for 30, why did you want to come on a black executive perspective podcast? Talk about this topic because it's

so important, especially where we are politically right now. Uh, diversity and inclusion is not wiped out of my mind or my mouth or my words. Uh, it makes us better, makes us stronger, and no one should be discriminated against.

Well, number one, I mean, see how we kicked the show off. He goes right to the right to it, right? So we're so excited for you to be here and thank you. So you ready to talk about it? Cause we got a lot of stuff to talk about. I'm ready. All right. So let's talk about it. So, you know, obviously, you know, we're 31 years or excuse me, you retired in 2021. Now we're in 2025. So, and you've done a lot of things along the way, but there's always a beginning. So let's back up a little bit and let's, let's go back to the early days of your career. Okay. Tell us a little bit, what was your motivation to get into sports? Talk a little bit about that.

So I, uh, believe it or not, it was in my mother's DNA. She had a, uh, brother, um, he was the only woman out of five and he was a terrific basketball player and coach and he coached at the university of Dayton. And so early on, we used to listen to the games on the radio and he, Um, you know, Dayton Flyers, I think they beat John Wooden's team once. So, um, I, it caught fire and, but I remember the day she, my mom, I don't know how she got the money out of six kids. I was the youngest. She took him to Madison square garden, not to watch the Knicks who I adore or love still, but to watch a doubleheader women's basketball game. And it had Montclair state with a woman named Carol Blaisdowski. And she hit 52 points in the garden that day. And I felt like I was around my peeps. Got it. Uh, and basketball came very easy for me. Uh, used to whip my brother in the backyard. He'll kill me for saying that. Was

this a, a, a Sheryl Miller and Reggie Miller type thing? Yeah,

maybe, maybe a little under. Um, so, you know, mostly boys in the neighborhood and sports just came very easily to me. So I knew once I graduated and. Uh, went on to college. I wanted to be a PE teacher and a coach. And that's what I did for the first five years of my life. And then I pivoted and went to ESPN.

Wow. Wow. So real quick, before I go to the pivot, so when you went to see Montclair estate, okay. At Madison square garden, which is not a small arena. Okay. How many people were there sold out? It was sold out. It was sold out. Wow. So that I didn't even think, I didn't even think there was sold out. Yeah. Now it

was, it was really, um, I forget who sponsored. I should know that, but it was really, uh, it was Montclair state. Immaculata, uh, Queen state was very good. And, um, uh, it was the last one. I can't remember. Um,

Yeah, it doesn't matter. They were all the big top teams. So you said you found your peeps. And in other words, you found what you're calling them basically, right? A little bit. I was

just so like enthusiastic and happy and just in awe. Of the talent that was on the court and Blaise Jowski, I did a piece on her later in life and didn't make the Olympic team, but that's for another day. But she reminded me that she also had a double, double, double points and rebounds. And she reminded me that we didn't have the three point line, so she would have had more points.

No, and

you said she scored 52 or something. 52. She held the record for the longest. I think Kobe Bryant broke it. No

joke. Yeah. Wow. So it's, uh, you know, talking about breaking records, you were at ESPN for 31 years. Tell us that pivot. What made you go to ESPN? And what was your, what did you think you were going to do when you first went there?

Um, Tony, I just remembered the 14 Delta State.

So wait a minute. So Delta State, wasn't that a, um, isn't that, um, HPCU? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. That was awesome. Yeah.

That's pretty cool.

So tell us, you went to ESPN. What were you, what was, what was your motivation? What do you think you were going to do? Because obviously a lot of times people start here and then they end up over here. So tell us a little bit about that.

So I was, uh, I was coaching my final year of coaching at Brown university. Also, you forgot, you're a

college basketball coach at Brown. Ivy League. What was your record?

Um, we did really well that year. I was there one year and we won, uh, defensive team of the year or something. Did you guys make March

Madness?

Uh, no, we did not. NIT? Uh, I don't remember doing that. No, we were good, but I don't remember making the NCAA tournament. You

so the ESPN recruits you to come there. No,

no, he's a great story. So I was not recruited. I I decided I wanted to get out of coaching I didn't want to have to rely on 17, 18 year olds, either making us win or lose. If you have talent, you win. If you don't, you lose. So, um, so I decided to dial it back and find something else to do with my life. And I also didn't care for recruiting the road, a lot of stuff, right. Going to

people's houses and trying to convince their kids, dealing with their parents, can I start all that? Right.

And then Ivy league, no, no athletic scholarship. So you have to pay the freight, you know, you might get some financial aid, but not, not enough. So anyhow, I decided to pivot and, um, I was working for a little temp agency in Connecticut here and I got a call. Would you like to work, um, over at the small cable company called ESPN? It's in Bristol, Connecticut. They're looking for someone to help, uh, with their 10th anniversary party.

So this was an 89 then, right?

It's 88 going into 80. Yeah, it was 89 actually because it was September. Because they started in 79, am I correct? Right. You're right. You got it. So, uh, who doesn't want to work on a party, Tony? I mean, flat out.

I'd have been there. Sign me up.

So, uh, the communications department hired me with Rosa Gaddy, who is also a Brown, um, employee. She was the first SID ever that was a woman from Brown. She took, she, she was, uh, before her time. So when you say SID, what do you mean? Sports Information Director. Got it, got it, got it. Yeah, for Brown. And so she went to this company and so we clicked and. I loved every day of it. It was, every day was different. Uh, I came early, I stayed late, I did whatever they wanted me to do. They treated me well, royal. I mean, it was just,

it was the dream come true. So what, what made you love it? Why, why was so exciting back in 89, 90, 91?

You felt like you were the little blue engine trying to go up the mountain. Uh, and uh, I remember they, shortly after, remember the MLB, uh, negotiation and ESPN got MLB. Fast forward now,

you know, it's kind of funny. Um, I never worked, I always wanted to work at ESPN, right? My, well, my wife, you know, my wife, she worked at ESPN, right? I worked at a few startups, but I know that feeling when you talked about, cause that, you know, ESPN, a billion dollars, whatever the case may be. But even at a 10 year old, it still was a young company that was still trying to make its way. And, you know, when I worked at a young company. And it was like a family. Everybody had, we were all rolling in the same direction. Everybody was trying to build this brand. And it just, it is, it was like catching lightning, lightning in a bottle. Do you agree with that or?

Absolutely. The, like I said, the, the, uh, analogy of the little engine going up the mountain, you would be asked a question, you would just figure it out. Figure it out. Just figure it out. Yeah. Paper

clips. And you, you would, we would put stuff together. Right. And we didn't have all the resources. We would just, we would just do it. And it was a lot of fun.

Yeah. Yeah. It, it, it was that way of my entire career there. Then Disney bought us, we got more corporate, um, but, you know, adding new networks and, you know, new technology and. Just every day was different. And I love that. I could never work, God bless those people that work in, in Detroit, you know, and putting cars together. I just, that was, that would not be for me.

So you started off in the communications department and then how did you pivot and started moving around and stuff to that?

So an opening, uh, in the programming department, uh, programming and acquisition is the department that actually cuts all the deals. With the leagues, um, radio, every, every platform and, um, whatever we, we acquire, we then turn over to production to produce. So I, there was an opening for a very low level program position where I was basically data entering the schedule and coding it. And so

just for layman's terms, so people, when you say data entering the talk, explain that a little bit. So they

had, they had these grids where the next step up was program planner and someone was assigned to the sports center shows. Someone was assigned to college football and they would take pencils and actually enter them in on a graph of Monday through Sunday. And my job was to take what they penciled in and then put that into the computer. So six o'clock sports center, seven o'clock, Big East college basketball, and just putting them in by codes. And I did that while I was getting my master's degree. So it worked out great. Uh, and then, um, I, I worked with Nielsen ratings and that was also just filling in the number on what we got for ratings. So I learned about that and I asked a ton of questions along the way. And then one day, Tommy O'Jackson came up to me and he said to me, he's a legend of ESPN. Used to

be Denver Broncos, right? Was that Tommy? Oh, you said Tommy O? Tommy,

Tommy O, OJ.

Got it, got

it. Um, and he said to me, he was in charge of all college sports. And he was in charge of programming and acquisitions, so programming, we should have this big East game here, and these are the two teams that should play, and we should have this football team there. And he had a big old stack of files, and he goes, look, I know you played basketball, I know you coached basketball, I just don't have time to schedule women's basketball, and by contract we have to. So here you go. And so he gave me the files and. I fell in love with that job. You know, just deciding who I think's gonna be really good, like depth charts you would do for your team and who's gonna be good from the A, CC or the Big East. Putting 'em together, finding the right window that they gave me to use and, and then handing it over to production

producer. So just so I'm clear, 'cause that sounds like, you know, you're playing with a puzzle. Yes. So just so I'm clear, what you're saying is, is that you would get the schedules from all the games around, from the conferences, and then you would pick based on the matchup and based on what you thought was a good team and stuff of that nature that the viewers would definitely dive into. And then so you would put those matches up together based on the time, the date. Uh, when the game was going to be played, what the case may be, and then that would turn the reality when I tell it that, that, that matchup would come on ESPN. Is that what I'm hearing?

Correct. Right. Got it. But the best part was when you could put matchups together on your own, where you could go ask, you know, Ari Emma, you know, it's that the contract says. Big East versus ACC, this is a true story and I thought UConn was going to be really good because they had a woman named Rebecca

Lobo,

they had this guard named Jen Rizotti, they had Jamel Elliott inside and you know, I said, they're going to be really good. So there's my Big East team, but the contract says an ACC school. So the year before in 94, North Carolina. One the national championship. Okay, so I went to Sylvia Hatchel and said I have to put together a biggies ACC game before the conference starts. So like January matter of fact, how about Martin Luther King Day? Martin Luther King Day, it's a Monday afternoon, it's a big holiday in Connecticut, and so, Connecticut versus North Carolina. So she said, I'll take the game, I go, it's going to be on ESPN, Robin Roberts calling the game, Mimi Griffin, all the bells and whistles, and she said, well, I'll take the game if it's at North Carolina. Okay. She just won the national championship. Yeah,

and so she, they have to leverage, they want to, I get

it. She asked the right question, so. And you had to go to Geno now, right? No, I had to go to the file where it said the last two years it was at Virginia, which is ACC soil, right? So it needed to be in a Big East. It had to be on a Big East campus. So I said, I'm sorry, Sylvia, but it's got to be at, at UConn, but they'll come back the following year and you can play them. No, I don't want the game. And I said, what? She goes, no, I don't want the game. It's in January, January 16th. They're in ACC competition. All right. So at Summit, Tennessee, Tennessee, what do you think? You want the game? Same script, Robin Roberts calling. And then, but I laid low. I stopped talking and she goes, well, it's during the sec conference. We have Auburn on Saturday and wow. To get up to Connecticut on Monday, Tony, I didn't say a word.

Classic sales move

kept talking. And then she said for the good of the game, I'll take the game. And

that

became a

rivalry big time, right? Because Tennessee was a Primero number one, they were one. And then UConn was moving itself up and then they became a superpower.

Yeah. And

then they played every year after for a while. Is that correct?

That's correct. So that day. So think about that. I made that call in may game went to air in January. So how many months is that you do the math? It's half a year, right?

Right.

So the game goes to air, Tennessee's one, UConn's two, both undefeated, they held the AP poll that day, the place was packed, you could feel the electricity at Gamble Pavilion, and UConn wins, they go on to be undefeated, win the National Championship. It was like 36

0 that year,

right? Yep, yep. And so, uh, I remember going back to congratulate both coaches, and Gino was on the dais giving his remarks. Big old smile and then I went down the hall and there was Pat with looking at the stats outside the locker room She looks up and I go Pat. This was unbelievable This was gonna be massive rating, but which it was and she goes only thing she said was for the good of the game

That's a great story man, so So what I'm hearing is, is that Carol Stiff, which people don't know, was the person that actually made that rivalry happen. Okay. Because she had an idea and she, instead of her using a puzzle, said, you know what, I'm going to do this myself. Let me reach out to the coach here. And the coach said, that is a fantastic story.

Fast forward. Now I, I put the, uh, South Carolina UCONN game together. So Dawn Staley and Gino, and that's a rivalry. Now that is insane. So I'm glad they're playing each other again, UCONN, Tennessee. And, uh, matter of fact, that night in retrospect, Pat said I made one mistake. It should have flown the team from Auburn up the store straight to Connecticut. She took him to Knoxville and she washed the team uniforms at her home.

So, you know, and I want to get into that, right? Because, you know, the coach is washing the team's uniform. That means they're not, they don't have enough money. Right. They're not being funded the right way. Right. Before I go there, though, I want to go back to you because let's be fair. You, you know, moved to ESPN and, and it's a male dominated company. Let's just be fair. And, you know, even the stories you tell, you, you, you've told thus far, where you are programming and somebody says, here, you do it. Okay. Versus, Hey, I think you, or you could be great at this, or we would love, I think because you play basketball, it makes sense because you can do the matchups, but it was just, you do it. And I, maybe I'm making a little tough of it, but talk a little bit, how you navigate it. You know, corporate America, cause that was corporate America. It is corporate America, a male dominated in a company, um, and be able to rise the way you did. And more importantly, be able to put your imprint on the things that happened that you just told 30 for 30 and all the other things.

Yes. Um, If I was going to fight a battle, I always had my facts ready to go for a rating allowed me to get better windows or et cetera. Asked a lot of wire and why not? Um, I really didn't stop my feet down. Um, I didn't want to be labeled and I didn't want to become white noise. I don't labeling as a feminist. I didn't want, I didn't want that. Um, Surrounded myself with, which went back to my coaching days and being made the youngest of six, surround myself with teams, um, advocated for those around me. And then I also had allies, and they were male. I aligned myself with the male allies. A lot of times you have to know your sports, you know, around the water, cool. Hey, that NFL game, boy, that Detroit. What a team they got. You know, I could always talk sports. Um, I didn't alienate myself from, from the men. Um, there was one, one thing I used to do was I would get to know if we were meeting outside the company, I don't know how I did it, but I would get bios of some sort on, on the gentlemen that were going to be in the room and often would say, Hey, Tony, how are the kids? And that just, it just, it, the whole like facade of a, of a wall came crashing down and I would sit next to him and go, gosh, you know, my, you have this problem with your daughter. Cause I have the same problem. And then, oh, he said, no, you have a family. And so I personalized myself. Um, and then on Fridays I often wrote notes. I would shut down the office and, um, before emails were popular and I would hand write notes to people. Um, or, or call back Pat Summit and ask about Tyler, don't ask for, I need you to play, you know, on this, this one date. So I, I use relationship building and that helped.

Yeah. I mean, look, number one is classic Dale Carnegie. Okay. So I hope you guys are listening here because you know, um, you know, a lot of the things that you have to do to break down barriers is to understand who you're dealing with. Everybody wants to Talk about themselves. They want, you know, cause everybody's in their own little universe and you took a, I want to say a backseat, but you allowed them in terms of asking the questions and stuff to that nature. And then all of a sudden those barriers came down like, Oh, she's, she knows about my family. Oh, she knows about the lions game yesterday. Oh. And you know, and those things are very, very important. Now the thing also this is that there probably was times where People wasn't friendly. Okay. There were times when you probably felt diminished even when you did those things. Talk about those times.

Oh, Oh, one comes right to mind. I was in a, um, cause I worked on all our NCAA championships, men's and women's. So the last one of the year was baseball college world series, massive, massive tournament for baseball. And, um, the chair of the selection committee decides who gets a bid for the tournament. We were in our summer meetings. So the season was over and he had a, he had something is crawl, um, against me because I put his team and I won't name the team. Um, I put his team at one o'clock on ESPN on the, on the regional, the, the weekend before the big, big games. And he was really mad at me because he was living in Mississippi and at one o'clock in late May, it's really hot. Right. And so I got called into my, his best friend was my boss. So he calls me in and he says, Now what did you F up? And I go, what does that mean? And he said, why would you put that team at one o'clock? Why would you not put them? He wanted prime time and he was the chair of the committee. So he thought he should get an extra, you know, And I did my job. His team was not gonna rate in prime time. And I put him on ESPN. I said, he's on ESPN. He's on ESPN too. And also, he'll be the, if he wins through, he'll be the first team to get the rest for, um, for Omaha. So what did I do? He said, I want you to change it. I want you to put him in prime. I go, no, it's too late. I already gave it to the NCAA. It's already published. And he's just not going to get his way. Like. So fast forward to the summer meetings and, um,

real quick before you go to here. So what happened?

Oh, he had to play the game at the time I told him, and he was the first team to get to Omaha and he was the most rested team.

So it all worked out. Yeah, it

all worked out. And the team I've had in front two teams, they rate rated very well. And my day to day boss is a guy. And I said, you know, Dave, did I do something wrong? Cause I want to learn. He goes, no. You program it the way it should have been programmed for the, for the viewer and for ratings and for sales. I go, thank you. So we go to the summer meetings. I'll never forget. It was in San Diego and I had a young guy working for me. Uh, Delroy, uh, Jones, I think was the name. Anyhow, we're in San Diego at a hotel. Who doesn't love San Diego? And I am pacing outside the room. And he said to me. What's the matter with you? I go, Oh, you don't know what we're going into. So we walk in and I was the only woman in the room except for the woman that does the tickets for the NCA. So it felt like the Pentagon and the production guy couldn't make it. He was on a star phone speaker phone. So this guy came up to me, the gentleman that was treating me so poorly. And he said, who makes the decision on TV windows? And I said, well, we give our recommendation to the NCAA, but it's their tournament with due respect. If they don't like something, we can talk about it. So we sit down and we start the meeting. He would not look at me. And then he asked a programming question about the following year. Could we have a selection show on this day and not that day? And he's looking at the star phone and he's talking to production and that's a programming, that's a scheduling. So, I, I could just feel the blood going up my neck and I just said, Hey Eddie, on the star phone, that's my, that's my area of expertise. I'll take that one. And then I, Hey Larry, this is what we're doing and why we're doing it. And then I just acted very professional and kind of went above him. Anyhow, after the meeting, we're having drinks or whatever dinner. And the one woman in the room came up and she said, Bravo, Bravo, you handle that. So we get outside the door and Delroy goes, Oh, my God, bravo. He goes, I'm embarrassed for the male species. I

mean, so number one, thanks for sharing that. I, my blood is going up just hearing the story. Okay. And you know, one of the things, and you, when we talked to her, when I asked you, why'd you want to come on BEP? And you said, Hey, Tony, you know, based on what's going on right now in the country, based on diversity, equity, inclusion, I want to come in and chat about these things, because it's not something that I'm a race in what the case may be. When I hear these stories, and I've experienced them as well, okay, you know, where you're one, I've been in places where I was the only black person. And especially as I rose up the ranks to the VP level, I didn't see anybody look like me. However, I worked my butt off, obviously, right? Like you, you work your butt off, you do everything you overwork. You, you play chess, not checkers. So you're, you're seeing moves. You're making moves to two steps ahead because you're anticipating blah, blah, blah. And then obviously you're not perfect either. Okay. And then there's other things. And when you make one mistake after all the things you've done, right. You make one mistake all of a sudden. And again, I'm paraphrase, you know, what did you up this time?

Right.

Right. Which Okay. And look, let's say, let's say, let's say you were wrong because you really wasn't right. It was his friend, which is another issue. Right. But let's say you were wrong. Okay. Okay. I made a mistake. So what did I F up again? So that means in your mind, I've been effing up stuff all along. Um, which ain't true, but you make it in a narrative, all right, because you're trying to diminish me. And I've experienced that a little bit. Now you handle, I got to give it to you and you know, Bravo to, you know, you made a human, the male species look horrible and I get all that, right. But you shouldn't have to do that. But talk about, yeah, you had that face on at work, but talk about how that affected you when you went home or the day after, because. One of the things that's very important for all of us to be successful is to have psychological safety, right? To see that what we do, people appreciate it. They see the value. They know what we're bringing to the table. And if something does go wrong, they're not going to erase me or erase all my accomplishments. Can you speak to that a little bit?

I often found that if If I did make a mistake, and I, we all make mistakes, that's how you learn, um, I would, I would just come right out and say, Hey, that's on me. My bad. Not going to happen again. Those are hard calls to have with a rights holder too. Um, and 99. 9 percent of the time, the other person just comes, calms right down. She's owning it. She's, she's willing to learn from it and we're going to give her that opportunity. So that's how I always handle that situation. Be righteous and all that all that good stuff. Um regarding home Try not to bring it home. Um, but I, I, I do remember I was, I was going down to Howard University and my son, uh, was young. He was probably, no, he wasn't really, really young, probably middle school. And I let the kids go on one trip a year, maybe two, one on one. I had two children and I took them down to Howard and I said, look, son, you go over there, the cafeteria area, here's some cash. I'm going to meet with the, uh, athletic director. We're going to do a game down here and I'll be back in an hour. Okay. So off he goes. Off I go. So I come back an hour later and we're crossing that beautiful campus to, um, to catch a cab or something. And, um, I go, how, how, how you doing? How, how you, he goes, Hey, I'm not going to lie, but I was the only white kid person on this campus. And I said, how'd you feel? How did you feel? And that lesson, you know, I, I, you know, what did he say? Uncomfortable. Yeah,

exactly.

Uncomfortable.

Exactly.

Um, I said, well, did, were they hostile or were people night? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Food was great. It was great. Oh my

God. It was

delicious. But he saw the other side. Yep. And, um, so for that, I'm proud that, that I introduced him to that. So

that is awesome. That is a great story. So listen, you've been there for a while. You're kicking, but you're moving around. Um, You now ESPN executive producer 30 for 30. Um, and then obviously the Emmy winning one, any Emmy winning one, 37 words real quick, tell us a little bit about

title nine is 37 words. Talk to us. Um, so part of my, my role at ESPN and when the women's sports foundation is educating people about what title nine is. Basically, um, equal rights for all on campus of any campus receiving federal funds. You can't discriminate, discriminate against their sex. Their gender. So, uh, yeah, I worked on the 30th anniversary, 35th, 40th, 40th. And so this was the 50th and we did a four part series on the 37 words. And from back to 1972, right up to where we are with transgender athletes. And, um, it was very, very powerful and well received. Um, and it's a great, great tool of education on, on title nine.

Wow. And if, and again, I, if I remember correctly, wasn't Billie Jean King, a big advocate of title nine back in 72, is that correct?

Yeah. She played, she played, she

played, she played was Billy Bob was his dude name. I forget.

Um, Billy Riggs, Bobby Riggs, Bobby Riggs. Yeah. Bobby Riggs. Yeah, yeah. She, uh, She she had to win. She

had no choice. She had no choice. He was calling her out Oh, right and think about how you know, and again, I hate you know, but it's like a Jackie Robinson thing Right where you're carrying the whole race To play baseball because if he didn't make it then it would have been years further before black or people of color could play baseball It was no different then right Um, so let me ask you this, you know, in terms of title nine today, what's some of the implications and some of the things that still being people trying to erase a lot of these issues, a lot of these prop policies, because they see it as discrimination on the other side. You talk a little bit about that.

Oh, absolutely. Uh, let's, where do you want to start? NIL? Um, who's getting all the NIL deals? Correct.

The males.

Yeah. That's, that's a violation. That's a violation. Um, but they really can't prosecute because the money to date is not coming from the schools. It's coming from collectives, the boosters and the boosters. It's not coming from the department now with the new house settlement, which will be probably going to affect in April. Um, division one schools can pay their athletes up to 20 million a year. Where are they? Where is that money coming from? Where's cop and state going to find 20 million. So they're eliminating, um, positions. They're limiting, you know, diversity inclusion officers where wherever they can cut, um, they're also dropping, uh, programs, athletic programs. So opportunities for kids to compete are, are going to go the wayside. And, um, I just worry about the federal funding. Um, I don't think it will go totally away because God forbid, most of the federal funding goes to the hospitals on campus and the research that's being done. But there, there is, there are some concerns. Definitely on the women's side, but the problem with Title IX is it's not being enforced. There hasn't been one school that's had to go to court or, or had to pay a penalty fee. Uh, because they don't have the funding at the government to prosecute schools. So they're just all running the Wild Wild West.

It's the Wild Wild West, right? It's the Wild Wild West. So you, the, the policies are there. Everybody says the right thing in a soundbite. Um, but push come to shove, it's not being enacted and it's not being, nobody's being held accountable to making sure that it's equal access, equal funding, the whole nine yards. Is that correct? Correct. Wow. So in speaking of, in terms of accountability, when did you figure out it was time for you to start moving on? When did you think your, your tenure at ESPN was starting in? Uh,

well, I got, I got moved over at one point, I was, I was actually offered an opportunity to go on a rotation, a job rotation. Only six people in the company were offered. I could go anywhere I wanted to go and learn about our business from their, their lens. So I went to business and development. And based out of New York, but also the nine for nine films I was working on with my rotation. So I was on the films group and business development. So we were back then talking about streaming and what's this Netflix yeah. Sort of looking in this crystal ball and like guessing what was going to be coming next. So I found it fascinating, loved it. Got a call about seven months of the nine month. rotation to go over to ESPNW, which is a. com and John Skipper asked me to do that. And, um, you know, I told him with due respect, I'm not a journalist. I don't know what a good, you know, I could tell you what I think of that article, but I don't know how to edit it. Right. And he said, we're bringing you over there to, to be the relationship builder. And, um, basically decide what content should rise to the top. So I did that for three years and was watching some of the program ratings, um, on women's sports diminish. So I asked Burke Magnus, my boss at the time, if I could come back to programming. Um, which I did and I was very happy, but I didn't go back into the same role. Um, I lost a lot of my, I lost all the NCAA championships minus women's basketball. And I loved working on throwing softball and women's lacrosse or men's soccer. And so I, I, I kind of noticed then that my responsibilities were diminished. Um, but I kept pushing and, you know, having to come up with new tech technology for the women's tournament and just stayed really, really focused on what I was able to control. So that's probably where I kind of saw the writing on the wall that I'm probably not going to be here long.

Got it. And then when did it eventually end?

Well, COVID came. Okay. And, um, you know, obviously business decisions needed to be made because no one was going to the Disney parks, Broadway, cruise lines, everything was shut down. So there was a massive amount of layoffs and, um, all the vice presidents in my department got, uh, retired.

So they got retired, right?

I'm retiring. Yeah. That's basically what happened. Yeah. They, they gave me a nice package, Tony. I was able to leave, um, and be able to provide for my kids, but I really wasn't ready to retire. And that that's what, why I'm still really active right now.

Well, I want to talk about women's sports network, but I want to ask you a question. You gave 31 years there. You did a lot of work. You did a lot of the dirty work. You, and obviously they paid you and I get all that, right? But how did it feel? Because I, you know, yeah, I remember hiring, I had hired a life coach years ago when I was leaving one company to go in next company. And as that, um, uh, as that job started to move, I started to move on from that career, from that, that company, she said something to me, I never forgot. And she said, Tony, When you leave you're going to be emotional and I didn't know what she's talking about. And she said no she said people identity Today is based on where they work and The problem is is that when people lose their job when they get laid off or whatever the case may be that? Identity is gone. Mm hmm, right and it takes a while For you to jump back out there again, because you're mourning I'm not the VP no more. I'm not, you know, executive vice president of whatever the case may be, because in our minds, we think that's who we are. And it's really not. It's just a title. Right. But unfortunately, that part of our dance. So talk a little bit before we get into a woman's sports. How did that make you feel? And what was the morning game? If there was, maybe you're like, forget it, I'm out and you just went on another thing. Talk about that mourning process that you had to go through.

I was shocked. I was really shocked. Um, Although they gave me a great package. Um, I wasn't finished. I wasn't ready. Uh, what didn't see it really come in. Um, I wish I had gotten that lifetime coach.

She told me that years ago, but it's still, it

hurt and hurt. It hurt for quite a bit, quite a long time. Um, and I, I, I moved on pretty quickly. But boy, even telling my friends and telling my colleagues, they were like, you, you, not you. WNBA said that I'm like, yeah, well, um, it happened.

So you were able to get past it. Yeah. Right. Which is tough. Okay. But. My pastor, my church always says when one door closes, another door opens up. So talk about post ESPN, talk about women's sports network. Tell us a little bit about that.

I have to give a shout out to George Bodenheimer. You

have a bunch of shout outs all you want to.

George was the president of ESPN on my early years there and the classiest guy you'll ever meet. Uh, it was always, we, we, we, it was never, I, I, I, um, he always let us do our jobs. You know supported us. So one of the first phone calls actually the very first phone call I received was from Robin Roberts

For real for real. That's awesome yeah,

she had heard somebody else was laid off and she was she was upset about that name and um, I waited, you know waited for her to Go off on the phone and then I, and I, you know, took a breather and I said, yeah, me too. And so, but those

things, those call and tell us a little, because I know when you get those calls, you don't want them. But then once you chat with people, it makes you feel better.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. She said all the right words. That's for sure. Um, but the second call was George and I don't even know how he knew. And. Yeah. He reassured me. He said, you're going to have so many offers. Don't jump at, you know, ones you're not sure about gave me some, but he called me quite a few times and we still talk. And, uh, he was just a great resource for me to get over the hump, but a good guy, really good guy, uh, women's sports network. Okay. So I left, I left ESPN in July and then, um, launched my advisory company, stiff sports media consulting. Uh, and that was amazing because some friends reached out before the women's sports network and one was Val Ackerman.

Okay. The

WNBA, uh, commissioner, but she was the president for 10 years and now she's the commissioner of the big East. Okay. God, she wasn't

the commissioner of a WNBA. They only

made this last person. Yeah. It was president. Got it. So she reached out and she said, I need your counsel on title nine programming for our conference. Would you, you know, take a stipend? I said, absolutely. And then another company fish bait at hired two other guys that were let go that day, hired me as well to advise them on women's sports. And. So that helped me, you know, get my head off the pillow and pay some bills. I still had a child in college and, and then that November I got a call, a cold call from a gentleman that, um, wanted to launch a women's sports network, 24 seven streaming network. No paywall, no subscription. Uh, and what sold me was doing a show called Game On, which is our version that you and I would know as SportsCenter. Oh, okay. Cool. Um, highlights. And so the first segment was highlights. Second one was, you know, uh, discussion about a hot topic. And then the third, third segment is, is still, um, interview segment. And so I love the format and we did about 150 episodes the first year we launched. Uh, got some proof points out of L. A. produced and, um, I would love to see that show go for seven days a week, just like SportsCenter. We earned it. We deserve it. Um, I often heard people saying, well, there are not enough highlights for a full year of women's sports. You know, when you get to college football, uh, playoffs. It's NBA and NFL and I'm like, no, no.

There's a bunch of stuff going on. Yeah,

there's Australians, va, I, there's many things going on. Caught me a break, so I said no, I think I can fill the, fill it with highlights. But, um, so we're a 24 7 network. Three years in all women's sports. We have live rights, we have studio. Um, I consider us a surround sound of what ESPN and NBC and Fox are doing in es. We can't compete. With those, those, uh, those rights fees a week, they getting billions of dollars. Exactly. We just, and it's growing. Um, but we can be the storytellers and we can tell all the stories and let you know, uh, an NWSL game, or a hockey league, or a college, women's basketball, let's, let's learn about who the players are. So that's, that's what we're going to focus.

So, so tell us a little bit, like what is some, cause obviously there's challenges along the way, what's been some of the challenges in terms of getting this off the ground and get more people to, to know about it and to be a viewer on it.

So, uh, we're really easy to find our distribution is fabulous. We're in, uh, 150 to 2 million homes. We're on connected TV, Samsung, we're on Roku. Um, once you get used to the pattern of how to find us, we're easy to find. We're on your phone with Tubi and Freebie and Fubo on all those new chicklets of channels. Um, so finding us is not, not the problem. What we have, um, you know, to really focus on is getting advertisers and that's in all women's sports. It's still not here, Tony, still not here.

So just stop right there for a second. Just unclear. So you're having a hard time getting advertisers, a Gatorade or whatever the case may be, a Footlocker or Dicks or Nike to run across women's sports content?

We're having a hard time

with that. What's the reason why?

So, um, first of all, people were caught off guard with the Caitlin Clark movement, not moment.

When you, Oh, when you say movement, when it was godlike, everybody was on it. Right. So they wanted to put money towards that.

So it was too late because she came along. If you think about it in March and April and then the WNBA, um, season. Um, all, most all the advertising budgets are already spent. So we, we, we really think that 2025, or only in February, soon to be March, that a lot of people were caught off guard and didn't have a women's sports strategy.

Ah, got it.

So they're getting calls from some of the people you just mentioned, Hey, where's our women's sports strategy and the media come, uh, we don't have one, you know? So they're building one now, but they still haven't come. And so we need advertisers to step up and support these, these great athletes and their stories. Um, so that's, that's important. And then we need, um, we're looking for some investors come in so we can go out and get, you know, richer rights and more expensive rights and get that game on studio up and running every day. Like I want, yeah, I love,

I can't wait for that. What's. What's the end game here? What are you trying to, where do you see this going? If you get the funding and all that stuff, where do you see this going?

I kind of don't want to have a women's sports network. Like it should be equal, like not, not lesser than, you know, you still see it. Um, I won't name names of, of cable networks. You know, they're still putting all our women's sports and inferior windows and second tier

stuff. Yeah. And so

if you give them an opportunity, if you build it, they will come right. And we have very, we have many proof points. Um, I don't know if we're still gun shy and putting women's sports in prime time. Um, but you know, maybe on a Thursday night, you'll see it, you know, the WNBA is running on a Friday night in the summer. I don't know who. I mean, they did really well, but who watches TV on a Friday night in Minnesota? I mean, you're out, you're out having, you're out in the park. To be honest, even being in

Detroit, you know, it doesn't matter. Right.

So, um, that still needs to be flushed out. But I think what will happen is, and I hope this, and I saw a proof point with, with on a call out Google, they came to the table, they were going to spend money on. Uh, NBA and WNBA and the woman who was representing Google was an Olympian rower and she got their deck and she's being very, you know, cordial at the meeting and of course the meeting starts, you know, about the NBA and we're going to do this, we're going to do that and they want her to spend a billion dollars and she shut the deck and she goes, I want to see the WNBA Oh, well, that was page 39 of a 40 page deck,

right? Right. Right.

So she said it's the 25th anniversary of the WNBA and there aren't even 25 games schedule. Uh, I want 25 games, push the deck back. So she wasn't gonna spend a dime on NBA.

But there you go though, right? So that's what we need. You get advocates like that who got money. That believe in it. So that's why it's important. I get it. You don't want to have only women's own. I get that But in a day you got something that eventually you get people behind it Right. And then they got money and they're pushing it. And then let's get a lot of credit to you because it wouldn't happen. Those things wouldn't happen if it wasn't for people like yourself, or, you know, Billie Jean King or all these other, you know, forerunners of women's sports to be fair to even got it to where it is today. But the thing about it, which I love. You're not done. There's still more to do. There's still more things to, there's still more hoops to jump, right? Because that's really the key here. The more that people like yourself, they're out there advocating, pushing, don't give it up because you believe it, that's going to affect change. Yep. Okay. And you know, that's why we were excited to have you here because at the end of the day, what people need to understand is that you. You yourself, only you have the ability to affect change. You may not think so. You may think you're going up against a behemoth, but guess what? If you just start rolling that little snowball down the hill, you get a Carol stiff, who's creating a women's sports network, which I'm so excited. And listen, you know, anything that we can do to help you, but final thoughts, tell us, give us the final thoughts that you want to leave the audience.

Don't be, I could be talking

all day long.

We'll have to go to the local bar, get a cold one. Um, don't be afraid to ask why not. And, uh, be prepared to, you know, to fight the battles that are most important to you, um, and that you have facts for, and then, you know, lastly, uh, take, take the pride in knowing that you can look at yourself in the mirror at night and say, you've done good. And you didn't, you weren't unethical and. You can, you know, rest, rest a lovely night of sleep knowing that you can smile at yourself in the mirror.

Oh, that is awesome. That is awesome. Question. My final question. How can a black executive perspective podcast help you? Just get the word

out. Um, it's important and keep doing what you're doing, Tony, because this is really, really important. And, you know, straight talk only

helps. Well, thank you. And just so I'm clear, when you say get the word out, what word should we be getting out that there's a women's sports? There we go.

There's a women's sports network, right?

So that's a, that's a no brainer. Okay. We're definitely going to do that. Um, I'm looking forward to working with you in any way. And we'll talk about that, you know, offline, but more importantly, I'm Knowing how busy you are, knowing that you're, you know, championing a network that's going to not just, um, something for women to watch, but for all human beings to be able to gravitate. And knowing the challenges that it takes to do that, I salute you. So you ain't got no problem having our back. All right. Cause we're going to do, we're going to be right there with you. So Carol stiff. I want to thank you for joining a black executive perspective podcast. I want you to stay right there because you're going to help us with our call to action. So stay right there. So now I think it's time for Tony's tidbit. Corporate America may give you a title, but it will never define your worth. True success is surviving the system, learning the game, and thriving on your own terms. And you heard a lot of that. From Carol stiff. So again, I want to remind everyone to make sure you check out every Thursday on a black executive perspective podcast need to know by Dr. Nsenga Burton, Dr. Burton dives into the timely and crucial topics that shape our community that you don't have time to figure out. So definitely you want to check her out every Thursday. Need to know by Dr. Nsenga Burton. And then you also want to check out our round table, pull up, speak up, right? Which is coming out next week. We're bold unfiltered voices tackle the day's most provocative issues, sharp perspectives. You heard Carol say real talk and a call to action. Don't forget to watch and join the revolution. So. As, uh, typically people who watch or listen to a black executive perspective podcast, they know our call to action. Our goal here is to eliminate all forms of discrimination. And the way we do that, we have an acronym called less L E S S. And Carol stiff is going to help us with that. Carol kick us off.

For L. Yeah. Learn, always ask questions, always just, you know, uh, be willing to say, yeah, I can do that. Try it, but then also it's okay to fail because you're learning.

Absolutely. And after you learn, E stands for empathy. Now you've learned about people that you don't know. You've learned about things that you wasn't aware of. Now you can be more empathetic because you can put yourself in their shoes.

So S, the first S is to share your insights to enlighten others. And that works really, really well that you have to talk through things. And I always surrounded myself with the team and my team was all different ages. Different colors, different backgrounds. And I always took their insights and then made my decision.

That is awesome. And then the final S is stop. You want to stop discrimination as it walks in your path. So if aunt Jenny or uncle Joe say something at the Sunday dinner table, that's inappropriate. You say auntie Jenny, uncle Joe, we don't believe that. And you stop it right there. So if everyone can incorporate less. L E S S will build a more fair, more understanding world. And guess what? We all will be able to see the change that we want to see because less will become more. Don't forget to check out all episodes on a black executive perspective podcast on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. And you can follow us on our socials of LinkedIn X. YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, TikTok at a black exec for our fabulous guests, Carol president of the women's sport network. We appreciate her being here. I'm Tony tidbit. We talked about it. We learned about it. We even laughed about it. We love you. And guess what? We're out a black executive

perspective.