Heather Shannon (00:01.319)
Hello, my friends. We're here with a very exciting episode. Some of you have been filling out our listener survey and wanting more kink episodes, and that is what we are bringing to you today. So I'm excited to have my friend and colleague, Amy Rowan here. Amy is the suburban sexologist. We're gonna be talking with you guys about...
her journey with her husband into a suburban couple, exploring a little bit of kink and let's see what happens. So I think it's going be very relatable and exciting. Here's the official introduction for Amy. So Amy Rowan, the suburban sexologist and founder of Suburban Intimacy, helps suburban wives reclaim orgasmic lives. A mom of three 20-year-wife and breast cancer survivors, she knows how life can test intimacy and how powerful it is to reignite it.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (00:37.08)
You
Heather Shannon (00:52.071)
through coaching, workshops, and curated tools, guides women and couples to turn stress into pleasure, deepen connection, and build rock solid relationships that thrive through life's chaos. She is also a co-host of, I'm going to say it wrong now because I always confuse it your brand name, Sensational Sex Podcast. I did it. did it. All right, so welcome, Amy. Thanks for being here.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (01:11.124)
Yes.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (01:17.432)
Thank you. I'm excited to join you. We're gonna have fun. This is a topic that I have not talked a lot about. So I'm excited to get to dive into something a little new.
Heather Shannon (01:25.319)
I know. Me too. And I also want to say for people listening, Amy and I actually just recorded another interview where Amy interviewed me for my Desire Revival. So we're going to put the link to that in the show notes as well so you guys can get on the wait list. that is coming up. And if you are in a relationship with Mismatched Lobito, we're going have 13 amazing speakers. And it's going to be free to the public. And you're going to learn so much. It's going to transform your relationship. OK.
now, Amy. We have very unique jobs. Yeah. So how did you get into this? Like, I'm kind of curious, like, how were you raised? Were you like in a sex positive household? What made you decide to explore this path?
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (01:56.962)
Yeah, we do. We do.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (02:09.966)
Sure, yeah, that's probably the first question. You probably could ask that too, but I was, I'd like to say I was born to do this because my dad is retired OB-GYN and my mom is a psychologist. So they got married and had a baby and that was me. So it kind of makes sense, but I do think I had, it's not like sex was like openly discussed all the time in my household. It wasn't like that.
Heather Shannon (02:13.542)
for you.
Heather Shannon (02:22.09)
It's right-
Yeah!
Totally.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (02:35.146)
However, my dad would be on the phone talking to patients about vaginas and discharge. so there was this, when it came to things that a lot of people find to be very embarrassing, body parts and all of that stuff, that was very normal for me. And I think that did set a good stage. And then as I got a little bit older, especially heading into middle and high school, my friends started asking me questions to ask my dad, because they asked their parents, you know, they...
Heather Shannon (02:39.236)
Yeah. Yes.
Heather Shannon (02:48.655)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Shannon (02:59.77)
Live is so interesting.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (03:02.888)
They probably weren't even asking their doctors because what 14 year old girl goes and talks to their doctor about it So it would be Amy asked you about this Amy asked you about that and I started learning a lot of the answers and I remember doing a big report on the female reproductive system, so it was just interesting to me and and just had a culture of openness I would say and then you know, I Graduated from college. I did HR. I kind of had regular stuff. And then when I became a mom
Heather Shannon (03:29.606)
Okay.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (03:31.322)
I started doing the sex toy parties just to kind of get out of the house and make a little bit of extra money while I was home with my kids. And that just lit me up. I just had so much fun with it. And my favorite part was always the teaching aspect of it, because I would have women come up to me after each party and say, I've been to so many of these, and I've never learned as much as I learned from you. You're the first person I've ever talked about the G-spot, all of these things. And I just.
Heather Shannon (03:39.639)
Okay.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (04:00.94)
I loved that. was like, this is it. This is my thing. And as my kids got older and all of their stuff happened on the weekends and I didn't want to work on the weekends anymore, I was like, well, now what do I do with the skillset? Because, you know, it's kind of hard to figure out what to do. And when I discovered that I could be a sexologist and sex coach and I got that certification, 15 months certification, went back to school, best school, most fun schooling I've ever had, I'm sure for you too. And that's sort of led me where I am today.
Heather Shannon (04:13.638)
Okay.
Heather Shannon (04:22.257)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (04:25.615)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (04:31.013)
Yeah, I love it. That's so cool. And it's actually nice to hear the positive things that can happen when things can be talked about in a household, that you grew up having some of that normalized. That's usually not the case. some of my guests, there's a few people like you. Like, Lori Mintz kind of had a similar experience where it was a fairly open household. But yeah, a lot of us, it's more like, we were repressed. She's always been with you.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (04:49.56)
Mm.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (04:56.546)
Yeah, yeah, I feel like it's typically one or the other where it was like I was so impressed and that made me so curious that I had to learn more. Yeah.
Heather Shannon (05:01.671)
Yes. Yes. Yeah, that's cool, though. So I would love to hear more about your journey with your husband. So I mean, you guys, tell us a little bit just about the history of the relationship, how long you've been together, and like, how did you guys even decide to explore some kings?
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (05:19.662)
Sure. You know, we've, we met, mean, I was 19, so we were, you we met pretty young. We met in college. We didn't start dating right away. We kind of circled each other for a couple of years and then finally got together, I think when I was like 22. So we were on the younger side, in my opinion. James is, I mean, he's my everything. I love him. He's just, he's just a really, really wonderful man and I'm grateful every single day.
Heather Shannon (05:24.324)
my God.
Heather Shannon (05:36.977)
for sure.
Heather Shannon (05:41.671)
You
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (05:47.052)
that he is mine and you know, we've been married, it'll be 21 years actually next month and we've been together for almost 25 years. You know, we live in suburban Atlanta, I drive a red minivan, we've got three kids, football and baseball and guitar lessons and we live this very ordinary life really.
Heather Shannon (06:02.0)
You
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (06:13.166)
People say, you know, what's going on in your life? like, mean, dropping off and picking up kids. Like, do you want to know? But, you know, I think the real strength in our relationship comes in just an enormous amount of trust and support. Like, he always has my back. When I am doubting myself, when I'm worried about something, he's just like, Amy, you got this. Amy, I'm here for you.
Heather Shannon (06:18.695)
Right.
Heather Shannon (06:31.847)
Mm-hmm.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (06:42.862)
I will support you in anything that you need. And honestly, he taught me a lot of that and I've turned around and applied that to him. So when he's having a stressful day at work, I'm just like, I think you're fucking amazing. I was like, you are a boss. I don't care what your boss is telling you. I think you're a boss. I was like, you're amazing. And you know, I think you just need to have that type of cheerleader in your life. And so we really are each other's biggest cheerleader. And you know,
Heather Shannon (06:57.853)
Yeah.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (07:11.946)
outside of the bedroom and that I think that our relationship outside of the back bedroom reinforces what happens in the bedroom. But what happens in the bedroom also translates to how we interact outside of the bedroom as well.
Heather Shannon (07:26.919)
That makes sense. Yeah, it is cool when you have that much history with someone and because you met young too, it's like you probably just went through a lot of, I don't know, formative years and milestones together that people who meet later on in life don't have. So that's pretty cool.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (07:44.482)
Yeah, we've kind of, I mean, we really have just sort of figured out everything with each other. I remember I had my first G-spot orgasm with him and I was like, what the heck just happened? I was like, whoa, that's never happened before. Like, what, you know, and then I think the internet was barely a thing then, but I think I was like, what, this is, know, that was a G-spot orgasm. okay. So, you know, just we've learned and we've sort of created our own path.
Heather Shannon (08:05.807)
Ha ha ha ha!
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (08:13.022)
together and I think that's what's been really fun is it's it's been fun it's been organic and you know of course as a sexologist I helped teach how to consciously kind of do the stuff that we sort of stumbled into I think we kind of stumbled into stuff but being able to do it more consciously I mean again if I'd had support and education and all of those things that you know
Heather Shannon (08:21.243)
Mm-hmm.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (08:41.506)
that I help other couples with, then it would have been a different type of path. But it's been good and it's sustained us. And now almost 21 years married, we've started opening up these doors into these new experiences. And all of that is through kids. And I had breast cancer eight years ago. all of these different things, like life happens, life just happens. And I think part of what's really sustained us is we have
a really strong sexual connection that even in like the really, really tough stuff, like we turn into each other instead of turning away.
Heather Shannon (09:17.831)
That's huge. mean, that's part of my Gottman training is like turning towards or turning away. And it's a big predictor of divorce and relationship health when you turn towards each other. probably explains why you're together 25 years. You're doing something, right? And you still like each other. And you're having great sex. You know, and know we talked, we've been talking a lot lately because of the summit too. But.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (09:21.262)
Okay.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (09:28.46)
Yeah. Yes. Yes.
Hehehehe
Heather Shannon (09:42.908)
your interview for the summit, know basically you're having better sex now than before cancer because you guys keep focusing on it. You keep putting the energy into it. And I think so many of us limit ourselves with like, well, this is just what it is. Or we've been together 25 years. I what are you going to expect? I guess I'm curious. What mindset or attitude do you think is important to kind of allow people to keep improving and getting closer with their sex life?
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (10:09.166)
mean, when you have that basis of trust and cheerleader and all of that stuff that we have, I think the next part of it is just, I mean, you just have to prioritize sex and say, is an important part of our relationship and this is something that we are going to make sure happens in whatever way, or form we can pull together around whatever is happening in life at that moment. And again, that...
Heather Shannon (10:31.547)
Will you?
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (10:37.902)
that shifts. mean, we've had big, big things that have come up and through all of those things, it has still been, I mean, if we, if all we can come up with is, you know, 20 minutes or something like that, we will make the best use of our 20 minutes. If we can actually get the kids out of the house for a few hours or a day or a weekend, then we can do a lot more. And, um, and, and all of that, especially that part of it, that was sort of the beginning of our journey to exploring.
Heather Shannon (10:51.451)
Yup. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah!
Heather Shannon (11:03.547)
Mm-hmm.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (11:07.554)
you know, kinky stuff, which I never really expected to do, you know, cause it, this journey from sort of vanilla to kinky. And I say kinky-esque cause it's really still developing, but it started for us, started very unassumingly with just like a pair of socks and it, and yeah, well, that was, that was the beginning of it because it was our 15 year anniversary trip.
Heather Shannon (11:18.915)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (11:28.103)
You mentioned the socks before.
Okay.
Heather Shannon (11:37.607)
Okay.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (11:38.001)
And so, and this was post cancer. don't remember exactly. It was our 15 year anniversary trip and we didn't have the money to go on some big trip like we had wanted to, but we just didn't have the finances for it. And so James was trying to find something to do that would be really special and different, kind of on a shoestring budget of very little. And
Heather Shannon (12:04.176)
Yeah!
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (12:05.861)
We ended up going at my family has a lake house. I hope my parents never listen to this and find out what we did in their lake house. We went out to the lake house and I just thought we were going to have like a quiet weekend at the lake house. I'm sure we'd have some sex and drink some champagne and you know all of that. But we got there and James handed me this note. And it said and I.
have it somewhere, but it basically was like, your brain is off, your body is mine. And starting now until we leave, you are not going to make a single decision. You are going to do what I say. Like every single, I know, and this was out of, so out of left field. Like none of this had ever happened before. And I was like, okay, like, all right, no decisions.
Heather Shannon (12:50.363)
Good.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (13:04.491)
Like it was, and he's like, and you stay in this room until I tell you you can come out. And then he went downstairs and he set up all of these different rooms and scenes and there was a red light room and there was a blue light room. And all of these things had different meanings and different experiences. mean, he, I don't even know where he got all of this. It was so out of left field.
Heather Shannon (13:10.66)
my God.
Heather Shannon (13:30.919)
Yeah.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (13:34.417)
so amazing and then he comes and gets me and he's like and he leads me into the first room and there's a pair of socks like thigh high socks sitting on the bed and he says I want you to put these on and we had never been we didn't like I didn't wear lingerie like he was never really interested in that and I was like I mean okay you want me to wear some socks sure I'll put on some socks like whatever
Heather Shannon (13:55.656)
I had a boyfriend who was into that. James isn't the only one. Yeah.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (14:00.086)
Yeah, yeah. But what he actually told me later, and what I think is a really cute part of this story, is he said that he was so nervous to ask me to put on a pair of socks. He said it was just something he realized turned him on, but he was afraid that I was going to be like, do I always have to wear socks, or have you not been attracted to me because I wasn't wearing socks? And I think all of that extrapolates into
the fears that I think anyone has when expressing some sort of fantasy, whether it's socks or whether it's, you know, being whipped, know, whatever those different things are, right? So, but it started with a pair of socks and then he brought me down into the first room and we started with, you what I now know was kind of like our first scene. So, and he just had all of these different things and ideas planned and
Heather Shannon (14:36.419)
Yeah! Wide spectrum, yes.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (14:58.218)
you know, I think I'm going to keep.
Heather Shannon (14:59.025)
How were you feeling in the moment? Like, you like, my God, what's happening? Or were you like, yes.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (15:04.781)
I think it was a little bit of both. I think it was a little bit of both. But I think what I really, really appreciated and this has gone on and I think this is something that I wish more both men and women understood is, and there's more talk about it now, decision fatigue, mental load, all of that stuff. And as a mom of three kids,
Heather Shannon (15:07.751)
Okay, okay.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (15:30.422)
You know, and at that point, I think it was like three kids, three schools dropping off and picking up kids and all these different, like the decisions and everything that has to happen every single day. It's a lot. It's exhausting. And when you are then you go upstairs and your husband wants to have sex and your brain is just like, like thinking about all the things that have to happen tomorrow or tonight or whatever. It's, it's so difficult to turn that off. And when your partner can.
Heather Shannon (15:41.531)
Yep.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (16:00.238)
turn off your brain, right? Take away every, and it's new special occasion here, but take away every single, he's like, you're not gonna need to cook, you're not gonna need to think about a single thing this entire weekend. So all I had to do was just be in my body and experience pleasure and let him do whatever he wanted to do. And that was, for me, that was very, very fun and exciting and amazing. And.
Heather Shannon (16:11.131)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (16:26.693)
Yeah, just the setup of it sounds like a huge turn on. I'm like, just the like, if someone was like, Heather, you don't have to make any decisions. I'm going to take care of everything. I was like, I'm already in love with you. That's all I need.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (16:35.807)
Yeah. And you know, it's still like an inside joke between the two of us because I think like after, I don't know, one or two scenes, I don't even know what happened. Like I came upstairs and there was like a charcuterie set up and I was like, you made me charcuterie? I was like, my gosh, that's like the best thing. And he's like, that's what you comment on the charcuterie? was like, you got charcuterie too? Like, I can't even believe this, right? So.
Heather Shannon (16:46.695)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Shannon (16:56.231)
you
Heather Shannon (17:04.699)
such a good example because I know you said at the beginning like, we didn't have money for something hugely extravagant. It's like, but you found a way it sounds like you guys are really focused on what time do we have? What money do we have? What resources do we have? And then using that what can we make happen? And I mean, he went all out like this doesn't sound like you're really settling for like a little, you know, getaways sounds like amazing.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (17:25.028)
No. Well, you know, it's amazing what you can, know, 25, 50 bucks at Home Depot can take you a lot further than you might think if you have a creative brain. I don't know what he got, but he's sure to come up with some fun stuff. So, yeah.
Heather Shannon (17:42.086)
Yeah. my God. And I want to reflect to people too, like obviously, you know, if you're in a new relationship, don't just like spring this on someone like Amy and James had 15 years of marriage, tons of trust. Yeah, probably like 20 years together at that point. You know, three children and knew each other inside out, you know, so I think I'm sure that he, I guess I should ask you, but it sounds like he probably catered the experiences to stuff he thought that you would probably enjoy.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (17:51.469)
Yes.
Decades. Yeah, frauds.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (18:12.407)
And we've talked a lot about that experience and then just sort of all the different things that it's inspired since then. And I've asked him, said, where did you even come up with this? And he said, I just listened and there were just different things that you said and I just kind of stored them away. And I just listened and I was like, okay, this is something she's interested, this is something she's interested in. And then I tried to weave as many of those.
Heather Shannon (18:20.805)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (18:29.359)
Really?
So.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (18:41.481)
into these experiences in addition to the things that I was kind of interested in exploring. And of course, when he's weaving my things in there and then he's like, well, you want to try this? I'm like, I mean, sure, whatever you want, I'm here for it.
Heather Shannon (18:47.303)
you
Heather Shannon (18:53.201)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (18:57.026)
That's so cool. obviously this was this was like quite the this is more than dipping your toe in it's I feel you guys like dove into the pool with the multiple room
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (19:03.789)
Yeah, we did. I remember coming out of that weekend. I remember leaving the lake house, feeling like my marriage and relationship had completely transformed. And I didn't even know why or what or that it needed to. I don't think that it needed to, but it did. it just...
Heather Shannon (19:26.693)
Yeah.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (19:29.773)
I just felt like this door had opened that I didn't even know existed like three days before. And it was really, really, really powerful. And it just felt, and you know, it brought us even closer together and we were already in a good place, you know?
Heather Shannon (19:46.236)
Yes. Can I ask you just reflecting on it? Why do you think it brought you closer together? And then what did the transformation feel like to you?
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (20:01.097)
I it brought us closer together because it...
we embraced this vulnerability. It was just this vulnerability that it was obviously already there, but again, him coming and saying, you know, this is a fantasy, this is something I'm interested in. I mean, that took some guts for him. He had to be vulnerable about something that he was interested in. And then on my side, it's not that it was necessarily hard, it wasn't, but you know, again saying, okay, I'm going to completely let go of everything.
Heather Shannon (20:22.577)
for sure.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (20:35.627)
and trust that you have me, which is an essential component of Kinky BDSM relationships is expressing, knowing what the boundaries are and these are the things that I want, these are the things that I don't want and fully trusting him that he knows all these things, which he did. And that came from our relationship. But I think that that was...
Heather Shannon (20:42.128)
It is.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (21:01.451)
what we really dove into that I think that was a new level that was unlocked in our relationship of just that sheer vulnerability and what it felt.
Heather Shannon (21:08.283)
Yeah. Even the energy he put in setting it up, like that's vulnerable. Like, hey, I'm like trying and I'm doing all these things and I haven't done this before and I'm like hoping she's gonna react well, you know, like all of that.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (21:13.74)
Yeah.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (21:19.553)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And he...
Heather Shannon (21:22.385)
Yeah, and I think what you described on your end too about the power exchange is sort of like, OK, I'm actually surrendering. This is kind of new.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (21:29.101)
Yeah. I mean, surrender, like dominant submission. Like we had never had a single conversation. Like I remember leaving and then going and starting to go and I ended up on FetLife because I just, I was like, what is this? Like what just happened? Surely this has this, there must be a name for this. Like I didn't even know. And it, sure. FetLife is a website where
Heather Shannon (21:39.985)
Yeah. Yes.
Heather Shannon (21:48.901)
Yes. Yes. And for people who don't know, can you explain fat life briefly? Yeah.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (21:58.254)
People go to, you know, it explores all different types, literally all different types of kinks. And people just go to either meet people there or exchange, you know, pictures, conversations, things like that. People can meet up in person for munches. So if you want to meet people face to face before you go and play. So, you know, James and I, obviously we already knew each other, we were already in a relationship. But if you're a...
Heather Shannon (22:19.185)
Mm-hmm.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (22:24.245)
If you're a kinky person and you're not in a relationship and you want to find somebody to be able to play with, then FetLife is, I think, of many places that you can go and meet people. And of course, I had never been on FetLife and probably wouldn't have ended up there. But I was like, I have to understand what this is.
Heather Shannon (22:41.809)
So did it help you understand?
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (22:45.131)
Yeah, it did, it did. And it's still, you know, it's interesting because it's like, you you still have these impressions of kink as, you know, leather and black and dungeons and all of that stuff. And that's not to say that that isn't, you know, part of it, you know, but I think what for us, we have elements of that, but then we've also kind of created our own thing, which is.
which is just really fun, but it did. was like, okay, so I guess I have submissive elements to me and I like him when he's a little bit more dominant and then he, know, this has expanded. He's a rigger. He likes to play with ropes. We ended up setting up like eye bolts and stuff. If you come into my basement, you'll see these eye bolts and things like that. you know, we keep it hidden. don't think people might just think it's just for exercise, but I mean,
suspends me from things. Yeah, yeah. And he's, he's just figured all of this out on his own. He just kind of comes up with these different ideas. And I was like, all right, let's see if it's gonna work. Yeah.
Heather Shannon (23:42.319)
It's advanced, impressive. Yeah.
Heather Shannon (23:54.054)
That's very cool. I mean, he must have, I feel like rope and rigors and shabari and all that stuff. There's like, you gotta learn some stuff too. I'm sure he's done his research too.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (24:03.391)
Yeah, he has, but it is interesting because, know, obviously he views porn sometimes and, you know, he said he looked at some, you know, different types of porn on the kinkier side. He's like, he's like, I still don't really like that. He's like, but he has, you know, learned about different ties and, the elements of safety. And then of course, as I was going through my certification, I was sharing different things, you know, with him of, make sure that you do this and should we have this conversation? And so it was fun because it opened up.
Heather Shannon (24:27.524)
Cool.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (24:32.841)
a lot more of sort of those conversations.
Heather Shannon (24:36.583)
rope is also such a good entry point to king for a lot of people because there's so there are so many elements to it like you're pointing out like there's different textures to the rope and the act of tying can sort of be anticipatory and like for play and people can do it in a playful way or people can do it in a strict way or as you know a steamy way and so it's just a cool interesting way to bring some creativity like almost like a mental aspect anticipation
A lot of things that we just, you know, would say are good elements of a good sex life anyways.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (25:10.293)
Yeah, yeah. And I think the term that I discovered that applied to him was he's a pleasure dom. And yeah, and I was like, mean, because he, and neither of us are like into heavy elements of pain, you pain is sort of a enhancer, but neither of us are into like heavy elements of pain and things like that. But he's just, he's a pleasure dom. He wants to give me so much pleasure that I forget my name, which he does. And I don't, I don't.
Heather Shannon (25:17.723)
Love those.
Heather Shannon (25:29.671)
think that makes sense.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (25:38.49)
you know discourage him from that at all.
Heather Shannon (25:44.995)
hearing you say that you're like yes I think a lot of people would sign up for that.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (25:48.309)
I mean, sure. Okay, you want to keep going? Okay. I'm here for it here.
Heather Shannon (25:51.442)
Yeah, it's like how many orgasms can I have in one outing? don't know. So that's so fun. Yeah, I'm curious. that sounds like that was a number of years ago. So how have you guys kind of kept it fresh or kept exploring when you once the kind of kink door swung open?
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (25:55.086)
Yeah.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (26:14.881)
I think going back to sort of the prioritization of stuff, like once you open that door, like I would literally start to crave it. I would be like, James, I need a dungeon now. Like, and especially like, I'm really stressed when I'm really stressed. I'm like, my God, get me in the dungeon. Like, and so we would very have to get three kids out of the house, right? Like I wish we could go to all of these different places, but so I would
Heather Shannon (26:39.707)
I know.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (26:44.961)
send all my kids to go spend the night out. Or sometimes my parents would be like, hey, we're gonna take all the kids, all the grandkids can have a sleepover. I'm like, guess what we're doing Saturday, James, we're going to the dungeon. And then his grandparents start going. So we prioritized it, we made it important. And it was just this, a playful element of it. It's something that we really looked forward to, look forward to, continue to look forward to.
Heather Shannon (26:47.687)
was that?
Heather Shannon (26:57.073)
So fun.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (27:14.241)
And, you know, so we would have mini dungeons and sometimes we could have extended dungeons and, don't get me wrong. We also still have just like regular Tuesday night sacks. Like we're not always in the dungeon. but just sort of opening up that door to creativity and then just prioritizing and saying, so this is something we want to continue to explore in whatever way that we can and what works with our life as it is right now.
Heather Shannon (27:22.235)
Yes. Yes.
Heather Shannon (27:38.657)
I love that and do you as you mentioned do you like go to a dungeon or you've like kind of made your own version in your house like what has worked for you guys?
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (27:45.814)
We have never been to a sex club. We have never been to a kink club. We have never been to, I would actually love to go. He's a little reserved about that. And I expect we'll go eventually, but a lot of this feels so personal to us, you know? And it's almost like we might be influenced by what everybody else is doing, which doesn't really make a lot of sense. But so I don't know. I imagine we will do that at some point, but no, we don't go.
Heather Shannon (27:51.843)
Okay. Okay.
Heather Shannon (27:57.744)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (28:07.621)
I could see that.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (28:15.263)
anywhere. We just set things up and then take it down and when we can get the kids out of the house for like two weeks for a sleepaway camp, that's a really fun two weeks. Hope they never listen.
Heather Shannon (28:21.927)
You
Heather Shannon (28:26.663)
so I hope this is encouraging to people listening that a couple that has been together as long as you and James has gone through some major events in that time can be so excited about their sex life still. You can hear it in your voice just like, wait for the kiss to be gone. Yeah.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (28:41.613)
I'm like getting a little hot. I'm like, how do we get the kids out of the house? So, and it's hard. They're teenagers now. They, like my oldest drives. So like, even if he leaves, we don't know when he's going to come back. So it's, it's, it's, it's challenging. It's actually easier with small children. Sorry, people with small children.
Heather Shannon (28:52.719)
off.
Yeah. I could see that. I know. What are some of your tips for like kind of managing this hot, sexy, now kinky-ish sex life with three kids?
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (29:09.361)
It's, you know, I think you just, have to take advantage of the opportunities when you have them. And it doesn't always, you know, again, we're not always tying each other up and doing all of that stuff. I wish we could, but we can't. But, you know, taking advantage of the opportunities when you have it, making, creating opportunities when you can. And I think that's something that we very purposefully did.
Heather Shannon (29:15.889)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (29:22.439)
Right, right.
Heather Shannon (29:31.687)
Okay.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (29:36.588)
You know, with with younger children, you know, they go to bed at a certain time. They go to bed at seven or eight. It's a little bit easier because you've got a little bit more time if you know that they're going to stay asleep. You know, when they're older. You know, if a lot of couples would go to like a hotel room or something like that, so, you know, those those are options as well. We we don't really want to get a hotel room because we have so many things here and like when we do go somewhere.
I mean, when I tell you, like, we have a car packed to the brim with boxes and pillows and waterproof blanket. I mean, it is kind of ridiculous. I shouldn't take a...
Heather Shannon (30:19.212)
romance for a long time too so you probably have like all the thing yeah
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (30:21.507)
my gosh, yeah, the collection of toys that I have is insane. And it is because every toy that got discontinued, was like, okay, I guess this is, mean, we have, I don't know, hundreds. So, and you know, and so all of that is fun too. But, you know, I mean, I think the tips are prioritizing it, making sure that it's fun and pleasurable. And for women, especially, I know it's hard to allow pleasure in your life.
Heather Shannon (30:25.252)
You
Heather Shannon (30:30.244)
Ahem.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (30:51.053)
So it takes, and I say this constantly, I'm sure you share this too, 20 to 40 minutes for women to get fully aroused. And I was like, believe it or not, me with my swinging from the chandeliers now, I was like many, many, many of you for years where I would kind of lay there and sit there and think, well, no, not working. No, I don't know. That doesn't really fit. Like, I don't know. I'm kind of tired. Why isn't my body working? How long is this going to take?
Heather Shannon (31:03.861)
I'm
Heather Shannon (31:17.699)
I Right.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (31:21.323)
And I used to have all of those same thoughts. And then one day I decided rather than saying, okay, honey, you just get yours. This isn't going to happen for me tonight. I just decided I'm going to let it take as long as it takes. I'm going to stop worrying about how long it's going to take. I'm going to allow it to take as long as it takes. I'm going to recognize that maybe even if that first 10 to 15 minutes, I'm not feeling a whole lot. I'm just going to keep.
Heather Shannon (31:35.045)
Yes!
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (31:50.67)
engaging, kissing, exploring, letting my husband do the things that I know that he really enjoys doing. And guess what? Ever since that day, I have never had a single problem. I have always had orgasms. I have always had a pleasurable experience. There's just, there's that moment where all of a sudden the blood finally all reaches there and everything, everything turns on, right?
Heather Shannon (31:52.657)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (32:10.087)
Ahem.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (32:18.893)
but it just takes time and we as women have, we deserve that. If your baby needed to be rocked for 20 minutes to fall asleep, would you rock your baby for 20 minutes? Yeah.
Heather Shannon (32:27.367)
Right. That is such a good analogy. Because when I think about clients that I work with with young kids, it's like, they'll be on the floor of their kid's room for an hour until they fall asleep. You know what I mean? We do whatever we need to do. Yeah.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (32:37.549)
Hours. Hours. Yeah. My oldest son used to rub eyebrows and he would like, I mean, we would like lay there and then we'd have to like get out from underneath while he was rubbing our, I mean, it was, but you'll do that for your children. And why won't women allow 15, 20 minutes, 30 minutes, maybe 40. If it's taking that long though, which is natural and normal, there's, you know, you can bring a toy into the mix. We need that clitoral stimulation and arousal gel, arousal lubricants, like bring in some different things to help.
Heather Shannon (33:00.209)
Yeah.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (33:07.233)
But you are worth that. You are worth that pleasure. You are worth that time. And especially if you have a partner that's willing to give that to you and wants to give that to you, the vast majority of men are like, I enjoy giving pleasure. She just won't let me do it or let me do it long enough. so there's like, well, and you know, they'll go on. So, you know, that's, that's, that was a big, big, big change for me.
Heather Shannon (33:18.906)
Exactly.
Heather Shannon (33:25.415)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (33:32.168)
That's amazing. I think so much of what you're saying today is really about freedom and giving yourself the freedom to take up space and take up time and try something new and discover a new part of yourself and discover a new part of your partner. And honestly, that's so much of why I do this work because it really is like unlocking a new level. It's like in a video game, you get to the next level and you're all excited. I think sex is much like that where it's like,
my God, there's this whole other world or there's this whole other aspect of like who I am and what can be achieved and the amount of pleasure and the type of pleasure and how connected we can feel. And it's just, it's pretty amazing.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (34:10.977)
Yeah, I think that was the big huge thing was, mean, again, we had a pretty decent, like things were good, things were fine. We were having a good time. I had no complaints, but I did not even realize that there was just this whole other world. And then I just stepped into it and I was like, well, this is really fun. I'm enjoying this. now, and we've been playing in that world for five years, changing things like that. We're probably still kind of in there, but you know.
Heather Shannon (34:17.189)
No.
Heather Shannon (34:28.101)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (34:35.995)
Yeah.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (34:36.769)
I think what we realize now is that there really is no limit to the different types of experiences and pleasure and fun and play that you can have other than whatever boundaries you put on yourself. But there's, there's always new things to explore if you are open and if you have that trust and vulnerability and communication and you know, the other really sort of unexpected though it makes sense now, but you know, part of our relationship too is
you know, as we got so like in lockstep in the bedroom and we were able to start talking more about fantasies and kinks and things like that. And then, you know, acting all these out and then, you know, the kids get back from wherever they were and we're just kind of smiling at each other. the the other stuff, the life stuff, money conversations, kid stuff, teen, like all of that just became easier.
Heather Shannon (35:23.739)
Peace.
Heather Shannon (35:30.183)
Right.
Heather Shannon (35:36.923)
Really?
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (35:37.742)
it just became easier because we knew that we just had each other like inside and out anywhere that we were. know, my oldest son went through some pretty major mental health challenges this year and that were pretty, you know, we had some really, we had about six months that were pretty terrifying and he's been great now. But through all of that, like when we couldn't even talk, when I was just like barely hanging on,
day in and day out, we would just go into the bedroom. Some of you would just kiss. I couldn't even do anything. But we would just connect still in that way. And I just remember thinking as I'm having all of these conversations and talking to hospitals and all of these things, just being like, only way that I am handling this and surviving this right now is being able to lean on.
my relationship with my husband. You he was holding me up so I could hold everything else up. And there was just this intense trust that came there. And I think a lot of that goes further back into knowing that I can completely and totally turn off my brain and he's going to be able to hold me up in every single way.
Heather Shannon (36:53.605)
I mean, that's like hashtag relationship goals for sure.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (36:55.5)
Yeah.
I'm grateful and appreciative every day I've had.
Heather Shannon (36:59.185)
This is amazing
Heather Shannon (37:05.103)
I know you are and you speak so like highly of your husband and of your relationship and it's it's refreshing and I hope for people listening it's you know if you're in a long term relationship and it's maybe not as amazing as it is that you can work on it right like it's it's not like you said you teach people how to do what you and James have more consciously like maybe you guys stumbled into some things I also think you probably do a lot consciously as well.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (37:19.351)
Yeah.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (37:29.997)
Yeah, yeah, I may be underestimating that, but yes, yeah.
Heather Shannon (37:34.479)
Yeah. So if people are like, okay, yeah, I want a little bit more of what she has. What are your thoughts on how they can explore kink and increase the trust and really have each other's back with that?
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (37:46.594)
No, I think it starts, you know, with something as simple as, know, a conversation, you know, if there's something, you know, a lot of them were reading, you know, naughty books, things like that, you know, the, the, yes. Sure. Of course. And what is it? Like, maybe you really don't want to have, you know, triple vaginal penetration or something like that in the book in real life.
Heather Shannon (37:58.278)
So many of my clients are into the naughty books. Even if they like quote unquote have no libido, they still like their smut books.
Heather Shannon (38:12.401)
Might be a lot, yeah. Right.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (38:14.209)
But what is it about that that you are finding to be intriguing, right? And how can you discuss that with your partner? And I think it's something as simple as, I read this scene in a book and this was just kind of intriguing. Would you be open to a conversation about this? There's different, I have a yes, no, maybe list. Maybe you have that as well.
That's just a great way to open up because I think so many couples don't even realize what is out there. I mean, until I went through my SAR, which I'm sure you went through and you're, yeah.
Heather Shannon (38:52.959)
yeah. So SAR is the Sexual Attitude Reassessment. And they like challenge all of our sexual beliefs by exposing us to various things, some of which are somewhat extreme or just counterculture. And it's very interesting.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (39:03.404)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it was fascinating. honestly, that was the first time that I'd seen, I really watched very, I watched almost no porn. It's just not really my thing. No judgment, but it's just not my thing. So, you know, just seeing a lot of those different types of things. So a yes, no, maybe list is basically a list of every single sexual activity, you know, from kissing to say knife play. And it's all listed there and you just check like,
Heather Shannon (39:14.471)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Heather Shannon (39:31.067)
Right.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (39:34.766)
Yes, this is something I'm interested in giving. Yes, this is something I'm interested in receiving. No, or maybe. And, you know, and then you compare lists and, know, you can open up the doors to just some conversations. If this is something that I'm interested in learning a little more about and exploring, think, I think where a lot of couples get stuck is, um, they're just scared, but they're scared to have that conversation. Um, and if things aren't
Heather Shannon (39:40.805)
Mm-hmm.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (40:03.341)
clicking well in the bedroom already, then exploring fantasies and things like that can feel very out of reach. But you know, and the ultimate goal is just more pleasure and connection and learning how, I think a big thing that's important, especially for women, is learning how to make different choices and recognizing that you do have a choice. You you can choose, you're laying there, your partner's doing something to you.
Heather Shannon (40:09.531)
No.
Heather Shannon (40:23.878)
Mm-hmm.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (40:29.145)
and you're like, I'm really tired and I don't really want to do this, you are choosing to say, no, you get yours. OK, that is a choice that you're making or you can make a different choice. But the key thing is recognizing that you do have a choice, because I think a lot of people feel like they're stuck and they have to keep doing things the way that they have been doing it, because they.
Heather Shannon (40:55.557)
Right.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (40:56.361)
are scared to make a different choice. And it just starts with even recognizing that you do have a choice. And it's a series of choices that have led you to feeling stuck or it's a series of different choices that get you unstuck.
Heather Shannon (41:08.379)
Yeah, that's really important what you just said. And I think that so much of the good stuff, and I think your story illustrates that, is on the other side of a few brave choices and conversations. Right.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (41:20.557)
And it's, know, the first conversation, the first one, that's the hard one. And you get through that when you can, when you can listen with empathy and an open mind. And again, saying, yes, I want to be tied up. Doesn't mean that you have to be tied up every single time. And if you try it and you don't like it, you can always say, you know what, that actually didn't really work for me. I.
Heather Shannon (41:25.701)
It always is. Yes.
Heather Shannon (41:31.825)
Hmm.
Heather Shannon (41:45.243)
Right.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (41:45.314)
would like to do some, you know, I don't want to do that again. That's okay. Like you're not committing to anything here. Other than let's just, let's just try something, see what happens. And if it's great, cool. Maybe we'll do it again. If it's not great, cool. Then we won't.
Heather Shannon (41:48.028)
Right.
Heather Shannon (41:59.548)
Yes. Exactly. I love that. It's like you're lowering the stakes, you know. It's like let's just experiment and try some things. We're not locked in beyond that. Yeah.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (42:06.957)
Yeah.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (42:11.755)
Yeah, yeah. that trying something, I mean, that can literally be a toy or a new lube, or it doesn't have to be any floggers or any of those other things. I mean, it can really be like, let's just bring a bullet into the bedroom and see what happens there. It is okay. There's nothing wrong with needing or wanting a vibrator and needing that extra stimulation. That's how our bodies are built.
Heather Shannon (42:17.201)
How do you
Heather Shannon (42:26.629)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (42:33.861)
Right. mean, yeah, vibrators are designed to bring us more pleasure, so why don't we let them do that?
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (42:37.361)
Yeah. Yes, like who doesn't want more pleasure and the more pleasure that you have in the bedroom, the more positive experience you're having in the bedroom, which is going to make you want to come return to the bedroom more often because it was fun. So the more fun that it is, then the more that you are going to want to have. So let's get back to the fun.
Heather Shannon (42:45.254)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (42:49.553)
Correct.
Heather Shannon (42:54.951)
Yes. I love that. I love that. I think that, yeah, I think hearing about your and James story and how you kind of had you I mean, because you didn't even you guys just like ran through that door and explore which is so cool. But yeah, everyone might find something different within the kink world. I mean, the kink world is broad, right? So it's not just rope or like domination and submission. It can be like you said, the
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (43:08.193)
We did.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (43:15.563)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Shannon (43:22.919)
knife stuff, could be edgy stuff, could be exhibitionism and voyeurism, you know, it could be just scenarios involving multiple people and different types of power exchange. It could be fetishes, know, leather and latex, and there's like just so many options. And I think that's important to keep in mind. And I think I'm so happy also that kink is getting more
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (43:33.805)
Mm-hmm.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (43:42.946)
Sure.
Heather Shannon (43:48.656)
It's funny because it's almost like by becoming more mainstream, therefore it's almost like less kinky or something because now it's just acceptable. yes, we have a whole smorgasbord of potentially exciting and arousing activities and, you know, exploring them is a good thing.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (43:55.659)
Right.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (44:05.325)
And you know and and how that can play out in day in and day out life too is you know again I started with a pair of socks like as it turns out he you know he likes these little skirts and flip frilly little things which Honestly, it makes him laugh. It makes me laugh. sometimes you know on a Tuesday night I'll come out of the shower and they'll be like a skirt and some socks like sitting on the bed and He's like the kids are asleep. I lock the door you want to put on the skirt and socks I'm like sure I'll put on the skirt and socks right and it's fun and
Heather Shannon (44:12.923)
Yeah!
Heather Shannon (44:29.895)
That was cute.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (44:35.205)
does it do anything for me? I don't know. I can tell how happy it makes him and that feels good. So that's validating for me. And that's just bringing in a little additional element of play, little bit, a little more eroticism, just enhancing a little bit of that. that doesn't require any eye bolts.
Heather Shannon (44:49.627)
Yeah. Yes.
Heather Shannon (44:57.095)
Right, Yeah, maybe the eyeballs aren't day one, but you could get there if you want to. think that's the, yeah, do what you want people, you know, but yeah, yeah, have fun. I like that. So if people think that you're pretty great, like I do, where can they find more of you, Amy?
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (45:02.951)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, do what you want. Have fun.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (45:17.437)
am the co-host of the sensational sex podcast where we help women in long-term relationships thrive after the honeymoon stages over. So when you have finished the latest episode of Heather's, which I know you've already gone through all of them and you need something new to listen to, definitely go check us out there. I can also be found at suburban intimacy.com. So if you'd like to learn about any of the different coaching options that I have any upcoming workshops or
Heather Shannon (45:29.575)
You
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (45:44.781)
courses and things like that, please check that out. I have a really nice guide there for reclaiming intimacy after a mastectomy or any sort of major cancer, you know, sort of based on those experiences. yeah, and you can also find me on socials at AmyRowanIntimacyCoach.
Heather Shannon (46:05.189)
nice. Okay, I'm trying to switch my camera. Sorry to anyone who's watching on YouTube. I'm still here. My phone is my camera and it died. The phone is dead. Okay, well, I can't seem to get it back. So I'm going to wrap us up.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (46:06.899)
And yeah, and I was like, and we lost your camera.
No. Womp Womp. Okay. We're about done. It's okay. These things happen. Thank you.
Heather Shannon (46:25.16)
Thank you, Amy, for being here and make sure to check out the Desire Revival, which is the upcoming free summit for people with mismatched libidos. And you can find that at thedesirerevival.com. So thank you, everybody. And thank you, Amy. We'll catch you next week on another episode of Ask a Sex Therapist.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (46:31.457)
Yes.
Amy Rowan, Suburban Sexologist (46:44.558)
Bye guys.